THANK YOU THABO MBEKI, THANK YOU SOUTH AFRICA !!
Zvakanaka
From Business Day (SA), 12 May
Mbeki 'ignored judges' on Mugabe's stolen poll
Michael Bleby And Karima Brown
Johannesburg – President Thabo Mbeki's role as a mediator in the
Zimbabwean crisis took another knock yesterday after disclosures that he
ignored the advice of two judges he commissioned to observe that
country's 2002 general elections. Mbeki commissioned judges Sisi
Khampepe and Dikgang Moseneke to observe the controversial Zimbabwean
election in 2002 - which the opposition Movement for Democratic Change
(MDC) still claims was rigged. On their return the judges wrote a
scathing report on the conduct of the election and submitted it to
Mbeki. This was despite the ruling African National Congress (ANC), the
government and the Southern African Development Community giving a
thumbs up, saying the election result "represented the will of the
Zimbabwean people".
Their report detailed the constitutional changes made by President
Robert Mugabe before the presidential election to give him sweeping
powers to amend electoral laws. It also said the failure of that
country's legal system to permit a valid challenge to the results
undermined these efforts. The shortcomings in the 2002 election that
returned Mugabe to power included a failure to properly constitute the
Electoral Supervisory Commission; a change in the Electoral Act to give
Mugabe, rather than parliament, the authority to alter electoral law;
and the change of wording in the Electoral Act to stymie challenges to
election findings. MDC leader Morgan Tsvangirai attempted to nullify the
changes that Mugabe had made to section 158 of the Electoral Act but the
challenge was thrown out by Zimbabwe's Supreme Court a month after the
election.
Matthew Walton, a lawyer acting for the MDC in SA, approached the local
courts demanding the report's release. But the MDC later said it had
stopped the court action, out of respect for the South African
government's right to keep certain matters private. Neither Moseneke,
now SA's deputy chief justice, nor Khampepe could be reached for
comment. Walton said he had written to Mbeki to request the report, but
the president's legal adviser had replied that it was never intended for
publication and could not be released as it dealt with relations between
heads of state - exempting it from SA's Promotion of Access to
Information Act. Adv Jeremy Gauntlett, who represented the MDC in its
challenge of the 2002 presidential election, said of the report: "There
is a second secret Khampepe report. It concerns a matter of no less
importance: has Mugabe in fact ruled Zimbabwe for the past six years in
a documented breach of the law and his electorate's will?"
In an article written exclusively for Business Day and published
elsewhere in the paper, Gauntlett said the tricks used in the 2002
report are likely to be used again in the presidential runoff
necessitated by the lack of a clear winner in the March 29 elections.
The details of the report submitted to Mbeki six years ago make it
almost impossible he is unaware of the deceptions and illegalities
perpetrated by Mugabe to cling to power. His unwillingness to blow the
whistle on Mugabe - which dates back beyond the 2002 poll - is the
reason Tsvangirai last month asked Mbeki to step down as the lead
negotiator for the Southern African Development Community's mediation
efforts on Zimbabwe. But while Tsvangirai has a difficult relationship
with Mbeki, behind the scenes meetings between the MDC and Mbeki are
continuing. Business Day understands that Mbeki, who visited Mugabe last
week to resuscitate his mediation efforts, has been engaging the MDC in
behind the scenes talks intended to break the political impasse in Zimbabwe.
Ferdi
wrote:
<<>I see we have more than Mugabe's hands dripping with
blood........>>
Yeah. A number of Zimbabweans have committed bad crimes in SA.
Zvakanaka
Name them assole
Zvakanaka
And by the way, who has been killing Zimbabwean refugees in South Africa
today? ..... or don't you read the papers?
Ferdi
wrote:
The one who held my daughter hostage in our house, for one. I can give
you the case number and then you can go and establish his full name
yourself, butthole.
But getting back to the original point - it was a bit of sarcasm that
just flew over your flat head. The "THANK YOU SOUTH AFRICA !!" refers
to all South Africans -- not mentioning your burning self pity and
self importance .
(The WHOLE OF SOUTH AFRICA is ganging up againt this guy!!! ALL OF
THEM!!!)
Zimbabwe has a very good case against many people. Mugabe and Mbeki
for two, but you dude, you are doing their case big harm...
Ferdi
wrote:
You see - there you illustrate it. Your weird way of thinking. For you
it about all of zimbabwe against all of South Africa.
Not all the refugees attacked were Zimbabweans. Did you notice that?
Or do you not care about people if they are not Zimbabweans?
Zvakanaka
how the authorities treat them. Put it all down to quiet diplomacy and
talk to Thabo, he might be ablee to help you. Thabo has helped mugabe
all the way through so if you want Zimbabweans to go home, and believe
me they can't wait to go home, speak to the President and tell him to
stop supporting dictators
Ferdi
wrote:
<<>yawnnnnn. Look assole, I speak to lots of Zimbabweans and they tell
me
>how the authorities treat them. Put it all down to quiet diplomacy and
>talk to Thabo, he might be ablee to help you. Thabo has helped mugabe
>all the way through so if you want Zimbabweans to go home, and believe
>me they can't wait to go home, speak to the President and tell him to
>stop supporting dictators>>
I have listened to you on this NG. If they are like you I wish they
would go home very soon.
I have witnessed the crimes some of them commit. I wish them to go
home soon as well.
Just by the way, are they so hopeless they need mbeki to go home??
Are they so hopeless if Mbeki does not act against their dictator they
cannot?
Peter H.M. Brooks
> On Thu, 15 May 2008 11:14:14 +0200, Zvakanaka <lalapa...@yahoo.com>
One of the fundamental human rights is the right to free travel and
abode. It is often more followed in the breach than the observance, I
know, but all people should be welcome in South Africa particularly if
they are legal immigrants.
We have a problem with people from Zimbabwe because Mbeki has
continued to foster the tyrant Mubabe who is destroying our neighbour.
The tyrant must be removed. I'd support South Africa removing him.
The unfortunate immigrants from that benighted country have suffered
enough, it is quite wrong for them to be attacked in the shameful way
that they have been in Alexandria. This is a terrible crime and all
right-thinking people must object to it in the strongest terms.
How terrible to be forced to flee from your country and then be
attacked by those in the country you've moved to. Particularly when
that country knows all about wicked oppression and forced removals.
How can South Africans treat other people so badly?
I do understand the economic pressures with the price of fuel and food
escalating, but the foreign immigrants are not to blame. The rioters
should be targeting the ANC that has failed to deal with the problem
of Zimbabwe.
Ferdi
<Peter.H....@gmail.com> wrote:
<<>One of the fundamental human rights is the right to free travel and
>abode.>>
When you have a passport.
It is nowhere is funfamental right to enter a country illigally.
Zvakanaka
> On Thu, 15 May 2008 11:14:14 +0200, Zvakanaka <lala...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> <<>yawnnnnn. Look assole, I speak to lots of Zimbabweans and they tell
> me
>> how the authorities treat them. Put it all down to quiet diplomacy and
>> talk to Thabo, he might be ablee to help you. Thabo has helped mugabe
>> all the way through so if you want Zimbabweans to go home, and believe
>> me they can't wait to go home, speak to the President and tell him to
>> stop supporting dictators>>
>
> I have listened to you on this NG. If they are like you I wish they
> would go home very soon.
I see you are xenophobic too
>
> I have witnessed the crimes some of them commit. I wish them to go
> home soon as well.
How many crimes ? the truth of the matter is that quiet diplomacy has
exacerbated the situation and now all we are seeing is reaping what has
been sown
>
> Just by the way, are they so hopeless they need mbeki to go home??
No Mbeki has been helping Mugabe and these people have had no option but
to flee for their lives. With friends like Mbeki, who needs enemies>?
> Are they so hopeless if Mbeki does not act against their dictator they
> cannot?
If you could arrange a base from where these people could operate from,
they would be happy to go to war against the dictatorship. Thank
goodness Zuma has a different point of view and I know for a fact that
the tripartite alliance now has a different approach. Mugabe doesn't
like it and you are starting to see the consequences of a mugabe
backlash - purported xenophobic attacks which seem to be well organised
by a Mr nobody. I will give you three guesses Zimbabwe CIO, Zimbabwe CIO
and Zimbabwe CIO. Pick whichever one you want.
>
>
Zvakanaka
> On Fri, 16 May 2008 10:10:35 -0700 (PDT), "Peter H.M. Brooks"
> <Peter.H....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <<>One of the fundamental human rights is the right to free travel and
>> abode.>>
>
> When you have a passport.
>
illigally.
Rights? what on earth are you talking about? These people coming from
Zimbabwe are desperate. Their mission is to find work and send the money
back home to feed their families. I emphasise the word desperate. I
suppose if you Ferdi was in the same position, you would do nothing and
let your family starve. Do you have no compassion?
Peter H.M. Brooks
1948 called the Universal Declaration of Human Rights - the right to
asylum is enshrined in it.
Ferdi
wrote:
And if you had any sense you would know that if you allow a few
hundred thousand desperate people to go and squat in an area already
inhabited by desperate people who have no jobs and get shit or no
services, then what happened in Alex is inevitable.
Then all the feel good emotions that you refer to, disappears
overnight and is replaced by massive problems and hatreds that will
stay for years.
And that is why there is such things as borders, passports, visas,
asylum and designated areas where those that flee can be accomodated
and given aid.
If probably does not sound as good for people like you, but it is all
that works here, in other parts of Africa, Europe, Asia, America etc.
Did YOU know how many desperate South Africans there are?
I you give Zimbabweand (or others) a right above them in thein own
country and you do that for long enough in big enough numbers, the end
result is inevitable.
Ferdi
<Peter.H....@gmail.com> wrote:
<<>> Ferdi wrote: It is nowhere is funfamental right to enter a
country
>>
>> illigally.
>>
>> Rights? what on earth are you talking about? These people coming from
>> Zimbabwe are desperate. Their mission is to find work and send the money
>> back home to feed their families. I emphasise the word desperate. I
>> suppose if you Ferdi was in the same position, you would do nothing and
>> let your family starve. Do you have no compassion?
>>
>Probably not, but he's also not familiar with a document produce in
>1948 called the Universal Declaration of Human Rights - the right to
>asylum is enshrined in it.
>
>http://hrw.org/doc/?t=refugees&document_limit=0,2>>
Ah yes, asylum. A concept that requires border controll, visas etc -
as opposed to uncontrolled squatting in places that already are tinder
boxes of resentment after crossing a border illigally.
Ferdi
wrote:
<<> I have listened to you on this NG. If they are like you I wish
they
>> would go home very soon.
>
>I see you are xenophobic too>>
I am Zvakanaka-phobic. People like you are stupid and you are bound to
create problems.
<<>> Just by the way, are they so hopeless they need mbeki to go
home??
>
>No Mbeki has been helping Mugabe and these people have had no option but
>to flee for their lives. With friends like Mbeki, who needs enemies>?>>
So it seems Mugabe has a pretty easy task. All his opponents leave the
country?
Whatever of a dud Mbeki is, he is not the main reason the Zimbabweans
are in the predicament they are. It is Robert Mugabe, his cabinet, the
Zimbabwean police, the Zimbabwean judges and Zanu-PF.
THEY are the reason.
<<>> Are they so hopeless if Mbeki does not act against their dictator
they
>> cannot?
>
>If you could arrange a base from where these people could operate from,
>they would be happy to go to war against the dictatorship. Thank
>goodness Zuma has a different point of view and I know for a fact that
>the tripartite alliance now has a different approach.>>
Forget about any idea that Zuma will allow guerilla bases to be
established in SA from where violence can be perpetrated against
Zimbabwe.
<<Mugabe doesn't
>like it and you are starting to see the consequences of a mugabe
>backlash - purported xenophobic attacks which seem to be well organised
>by a Mr nobody. I will give you three guesses Zimbabwe CIO, Zimbabwe CIO
>and Zimbabwe CIO. Pick whichever one you want.>>
So the xenophobic attacks by South Africans against foreigners are
ACTUALLY Mugabe's secret police attacking Zimbabweans in Alex etc??
I think I rest my case against the way you think right here.
Zvakanaka
> On Mon, 19 May 2008 13:06:47 +0200, Zvakanaka <lala...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> <<>Ferdi wrote:
>>> On Fri, 16 May 2008 10:10:35 -0700 (PDT), "Peter H.M. Brooks"
>>> <Peter.H....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> <<>One of the fundamental human rights is the right to free travel and
>>>> abode.>>
>>> When you have a passport.
>>>
>> Ferdi wrote: It is nowhere is funfamental right to enter a country
>> illigally.
>>
>> Rights? what on earth are you talking about? These people coming from
>> Zimbabwe are desperate. Their mission is to find work and send the money
>> back home to feed their families. I emphasise the word desperate. I
>> suppose if you Ferdi was in the same position, you would do nothing and
>> let your family starve. Do you have no compassion?>>
>
>
> And if you had any sense you would know that if you allow a few
> hundred thousand desperate people to go and squat in an area already
> inhabited by desperate people who have no jobs and get shit or no
> services, then what happened in Alex is inevitable.
and if you had any sense, you would ask yourself how on earth did the
South African authorities allow 5 million Zimbabweans enter this country
illegally. The answer is simple. It is because the policy of quiet
diplomacy is to hide this information because Mbeki was complicit in
sheltering Mugabe. All we have now is that the chickens are coming home
to roost
>
> Then all the feel good emotions that you refer to, disappears
> overnight and is replaced by massive problems and hatreds that will
> stay for years.
Well, you can't say that the problems aren't self inflicted as a result
lack of delivery and policies about Zimbabwe.
>
> And that is why there is such things as borders, passports, visas,
> asylum and designated areas where those that flee can be accomodated
> and given aid.
Borders don't mean a tin of shit when people are trying to escape from
tyranny. Look at the rest of Africa and you will see it replicated time
and time again.
>
> If probably does not sound as good for people like you, but it is all
> that works here, in other parts of Africa, Europe, Asia, America etc.
Ah come one, use your brains
>
> Did YOU know how many desperate South Africans there are?
I know plenty of desperate South Africans, so why does the government
have a foreign policy which helps Mugabe create misery and destroy
Zimbabwe which has downstream consequnces for South Africa. i call that
pretty dumb. What's worse, the authorities are so uninformed that they
don't exactly know how many foreigners there are in South Africa. These
foreigners are taking all the jobs too and you can blame the authorites
for that because that's where the buck must stop.
>
> I you give Zimbabweand (or others) a right above them in thein own
> country and you do that for long enough in big enough numbers, the end
> result is inevitable.
>
really?
Ferdi
wrote:
<<>Borders don't mean a tin of shit when people are trying to escape
from
>tyranny. Look at the rest of Africa and you will see it replicated time
>and time again.>>
Go check Botswana. No Zimbabwean problem. Guess why?
<<>> I you give Zimbabweand (or others) a right above them in thein
own
>> country and you do that for long enough in big enough numbers, the end
>> result is inevitable.
>>
>
>really?>>
Yes really. As illustrated in the past two weeks. Do you have shit for
brains, or what?
Herbert Viola
Ferdi <NoS...@atall.co.za> wrote:
> from
> >tyranny. Look at the rest of Africa and you will see it replicated time
> >and time again.>>
>
> Go check Botswana. No Zimbabwean problem. Guess why?
Because there is a desert between the two countries?
Zvakanaka
Botswana, Ferdie the fool seems to think not. He's wrong, as usual. But
the preference is to come to South Africa because it is easier and there
are more opportunities for obvious reasons
Herbert Viola
Ferdi <NoS...@atall.co.za> wrote:
>
> Not all the refugees attacked were Zimbabweans. Did you notice that?
> Or do you not care about people if they are not Zimbabweans?
From the news accounts it would appear that the Mozambiquean illegals
are the worst treated in the recent unfortunate events. Is this because
it is easier to identify them as foreigners? Out of curiosity, how is
one supposed to identify an english speaking Zimbo in SA as a foreigner?