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" Bitterbessie Dagbreek " deur INGRID JONKER
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Hessie  
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 More options May 14, 8:00 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.south-africa.afrikaans
From: Hessie <bou...@rogers.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 05:00:14 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Wed, May 14 2008 8:00 am
Subject: " Bitterbessie Dagbreek " deur INGRID JONKER

  BITTERBESSIE  DAGBREEK
                Ingrid  Jonker

Bitterbessie dagbreek
bitterbessie son
‘n spieël het gebreek
tussen my en hom

Soek ek na die grootpad
om daarlangs te draf
oral draai die paadjies
van sy woorde af

Dennebos herinnering
dennebos vergeet
het ek ook verdwaal
trap ek in my leed

Papegaai-bont eggo
kierang kierang my
totdat ek bedroë
weer die koggel kry

Eggo is geen antwoord
antwoord hy alom
bitterbessie dagbreek
bitterbossie son


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Daniel le Roux  
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 More options May 14, 10:48 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.south-africa.afrikaans
From: "Daniel le Roux" <dler...@iinet.net.au>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 22:48:47 +0800
Local: Wed, May 14 2008 10:48 am
Subject: Re: " Bitterbessie Dagbreek " deur INGRID JONKER
Hier lê van die kragtigste afrikaanse beelde vir my- onthou hierdie woorde
al vanuit my jeugdae af : < ‘n spieël het gebreek tussen my en hom  > Dit is
so finaal en oor-en-uit, kan daar 'n meer emosionele beeld wees vir die
einde van 'n verhouding? Amper so treffend vir my is Adam Small se woorde:
'Die dice het verkeerd geval', ens ens.

Jan van Perth.

"Hessie" <bou...@rogers.com> wrote in message

news:be5f1fb9-0515-413a-a9f4-5c27efa798a6@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...

  BITTERBESSIE  DAGBREEK
                Ingrid  Jonker

Bitterbessie dagbreek
bitterbessie son
‘n spieël het gebreek
tussen my en hom

Soek ek na die grootpad
om daarlangs te draf
oral draai die paadjies
van sy woorde af

Dennebos herinnering
dennebos vergeet
het ek ook verdwaal
trap ek in my leed

Papegaai-bont eggo
kierang kierang my
totdat ek bedroë
weer die koggel kry

Eggo is geen antwoord
antwoord hy alom
bitterbessie dagbreek
bitterbossie son


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Dave  
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 More options May 14, 11:37 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.south-africa.afrikaans
From: Dave <d...@durbs.koza>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 17:37:09 +0200
Local: Wed, May 14 2008 11:37 am
Subject: Re: " Bitterbessie Dagbreek " deur INGRID JONKER

Jan moet nie teleurstel
en kompleet miskyk
'n skerp skel
word uitgekryt

Dave, na slegs 3 sekondes


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Hessie  
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 More options May 14, 8:16 pm
Newsgroups: soc.culture.south-africa.afrikaans
From: Hessie <bou...@rogers.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 17:16:16 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Wed, May 14 2008 8:16 pm
Subject: Re: " Bitterbessie Dagbreek " deur INGRID JONKER
 "Daniel le Roux" skryf

> Hier lê van die kragtigste afrikaanse beelde vir my-

        Ja, werklik. Dis die soort gedig wat só goed
        is in die taal waarin  dit geskryf is, dat dit amper
        nie in 'n ander taal vertaal kan word en nog
        dieselfde slaankrag behou nie. Soos die beste
        gedigte van Opperman of van Leipoldt.
                Dis tog so jammer dat sy so 'n tragiese
        lewe gehad so, so 'n kort tragiese lewe. Vir
        haar ontwil, wens ek dat ek kan glo dat sy
        êrens sit en wéét dat Mandela haar gedig
        gekies het om die dag te vier  toe SA  weer
        op die regte pad begin loop het. Ten spyte
        van die feit dat haar pa in die parlement van
        die apartheidsjunta om verskoning gevra het
        vir sy dogter se tekortkominge.

         Gloudina


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Dave  
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 More options May 15, 2:07 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.south-africa.afrikaans
From: Dave <d...@durbs.koza>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 08:07:10 +0200
Local: Thurs, May 15 2008 2:07 am
Subject: Re: " Bitterbessie Dagbreek " deur INGRID JONKER
On Wed, 14 May 2008 17:16:16 -0700 (PDT), Hessie <bou...@rogers.com>
wrote:

 Dec 13 1997 - http://tinyurl.com/4bz4s7
    Wat menseregte betref, is  die rekord van die setlaars
van Europa miskien nog slegter as in Afrika. Hoekom is
daar geen  Eerste Nasies in Newfoundland nie? Hulle het
die laaste een, ‘n vrou, uit die heuwels uitgelok, en haar toe
ook doodgeskiet. Op die oomblik is Amnesty International,
opposisiepartye en kerke besig om te vra vir ‘n openbare
ondersoek na die Ipperwash-insident twee jaar gelede. Daar
het Ontario Provincial Police geskiet op lede van ‘n First
Nation band wat geprotesteer het teen die integrasie van een
van hulle tradisionele begraafplase in ‘n nuwe provinsiale
park. Dudley George is doodgeskiet. Die regering het gesê
hy was gewapen. Dit blyk onwaar te wees. Dit blyk ook dat
die polisie bevele direk uit die hoogste vlakke van die regering
gekry het om geweldadig op te tree.
      So skend ons menseregte hier in Ontario.

       Gloudina


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Hessie  
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 More options May 15, 7:04 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.south-africa.afrikaans
From: Hessie <bou...@rogers.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 04:04:25 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Thurs, May 15 2008 7:04 am
Subject: Re: " Bitterbessie Dagbreek " deur INGRID JONKER
 Dave kekkel

> > "Daniel le Roux" skryf

> >> Hier lê van die kragtigste afrikaanse beelde vir my-
>     Wat menseregte betref,

            Dave, jy is nou wat ek 'n "ou tannie"
            noem. Jy sit en kekkel net die hele
            tyd. As iemand net sy mond oopmaak,
            dan weet jy van beter. As daar 'n gedig
            gepos word, dan pos jy amper onmiddellik
            een van jou eie brousels. En ek het 'n
            spesmaas jy sit en doen dit op 'n hele
            ander klomp nuusgroepe ook.

            Penkop van die Derde Republiek


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Dave  
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 More options May 15, 7:29 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.south-africa.afrikaans
From: Dave <d...@durbs.koza>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 13:29:57 +0200
Local: Thurs, May 15 2008 7:29 am
Subject: Re: " Bitterbessie Dagbreek " deur INGRID JONKER
On Thu, 15 May 2008 04:04:25 -0700 (PDT), Hessie <bou...@rogers.com>
wrote:

Nou nooi ek julle ander om te gaan kyk na die gedig wat ek gepos het,
en deur Gloudina 'n 'brousel' genoem word.
Die gedig is 'Daar is geen dood' en dit is gepos 4 dae gelede.
Gaan lees dit, en kyk hoe die tannie dit beskryf.

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Torreke  
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 More options May 16, 1:34 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.south-africa.afrikaans
From: "Torreke" <torr...@hotmail.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 07:34:13 +0200
Local: Fri, May 16 2008 1:34 am
Subject: Re: " Bitterbessie Dagbreek " deur INGRID JONKER

"Dave" <wrote

Dave, as ek nog met die Antie Knypbrilletjie gepraat het, sou ek haar gevra
het:

1) Weet sy na watter gebroke verhouding Ingrid verwys en wat waarskynlik die
aanleidende oorsaak van haar selfmoord was?
2) Wat sy met die woordejie "weer" bedoel in die sin "weer die regte pad
begin loop het"?


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Torreke  
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 More options May 16, 2:00 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.south-africa.afrikaans
From: "Torreke" <torr...@hotmail.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 08:00:09 +0200
Local: Fri, May 16 2008 2:00 am
Subject: Re: " Bitterbessie Dagbreek " deur INGRID JONKER

"Dave" < wrote

Dave, kan jy iets ander verwag van Antie Knypbrilletjie van die Eenoog
Republiek?
Het jy vergeet uit watter fontein sy drink?
Kan jy verwag dat 'n Bhuddis begrip sal vir hê vir wat Totius oor die dood
sê?

http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/syws/buddhism/buddhism.html
"In Buddhism, there is no God, nor any gods or goddesses, seraphim,
cherubim, archangels, demons, mythological beasts, familiars,
pan-dimensional cyborgs, or talkative shrubbery. That's one thing that
distinguishes it from other major religions, and that's also what seems to
make it so appealing to the ultra-rational, scientifically trained Western
mind. The only steadfast rule about Buddhism is that you accept the
teachings of the Buddha (we'll get into these teachings later). The
interesting difference is that rather than submitting to a Supreme Being in
whom you must believe (lest ye face lightning bolts, fire and brimstone, an
eternity spent with Courtney Love), you instead accept the teachings because
they're supposed to make you happy. It says that you should follow its
teaching because you want to, not because there are consequences if you
don't."

"The tricky thing about the Middle Way is the Emptiness of it. Here's what
the Buddha said about Nirvana (that is, the paradisical state of
enlightenment towards which all Buddhists are journeying):

    'Monks, there is that sphere in which there is neither earth nor water,
fire nor air: it is not the infinity of space, nor the     infinity of
perception; it is not nothingness, nor is it neither idea nor non-idea; it
is neither this world nor the next, nor     is it both; it is neither the
sun nor the moon.'

    'Monks, I declare that it neither comes nor goes, it neither abides nor
passes away; it is not caused, established,             begun, supported: it
is the end of suffering.'

    'What I call the selfless is hard to see, for it is not easy to see the
truth. But he who knows it penetrates his craving;     and for him who sees
it, there is nothing there.'

Buddhism can be frustrating for someone seeking spiritual guidance precisely
because the Awakened One perceived the highest wisdom as a kind of absence.
Every time you find a star in the Buddhist firmament to guide yourself by,
it fades into darkness. That's sort of the point. The truth of the Middle
Way is supposed to be beyond the reach of those who are chasing it. Mellow
out. Enjoy life. Rejoice in the absence of a great burden of rules and
doctrines."


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Dave  
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 More options May 16, 3:23 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.south-africa.afrikaans
From: Dave <d...@durbs.koza>
Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 09:23:48 +0200
Local: Fri, May 16 2008 3:23 am
Subject: Re: " Bitterbessie Dagbreek " deur INGRID JONKER
On Fri, 16 May 2008 07:34:13 +0200, "Torreke" <torr...@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:

Torreke, sy's gelukkig genoeg om nog Riaan as gespreksvennoot te hê.
Kom ons vra hom on haar te vra. Maar eintlikk is dit ook onregverdig
om Riaan te vra om met een in gesprek te wees wat SA se huidige pad as
die 'regte' pad beskryf. Dis so walglik:-(

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Riaan  
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 More options May 16, 4:07 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.south-africa.afrikaans
From: "Riaan" <Ri...@notvalid.co.za>
Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 10:07:27 +0200
Local: Fri, May 16 2008 4:07 am
Subject: Re: " Bitterbessie Dagbreek " deur INGRID JONKER