English Wisky
Glenallan
"The Highlander" <mic...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:4476c7ec-c0c8-459f...@u18g2000pro.googlegroups.com..
.
On Dec 14, 10:48 am, "jon.in.durham" <j...@no.email.co.uk> wrote:
> From now on England is going to be making it's own whisky, I wonder
what
> Scottish president Alex McFatboy is going to to do to stop it.
The elderly man said, "Men drink whisky, women drink beer.
-------------------
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/3808291.stm
I am sure that this Cumbrian whisky will be a malt to equal the finest,
and it should be, for it is a whisky master from Scotland who is to
select the waters, the barley and to nose the finished product.
As I recall it was laid down several years ago before I retired from
my travails in the nuclear industry. Indeed, from recollection I did
record a modest interest in the laid down stock, by way of
half-a-dozen bottles at the time. As you will know, a fine malt
takes long in its maturation, and I do not hold my breath for
the first maturation of the Cumbria. I have previously, partaken
of a first malting of an Austrian distillation of not inconsiderable
robustness and roundness of nose.
All sorts of people can make a good whisky, you know.
It is not a uniquely Scottish art, albeit we are self evidently the
best.!
As I said to Baron von Knackenhauser, "If ye're lookin for a world
class whisky oot o' this, ye'll be waitin for a helluva long time
Conrad.!!
But it's no' bad alang wi' shortbread.."
Merry Christmas. ;-)
G
--
--
Allan
"Glenallan" <glen...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:RK6dnUQEkMdIQ7PW...@brightview.co.uk...
>
>
> "The Highlander" <mic...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:4476c7ec-c0c8-459f...@u18g2000pro.googlegroups.com..
> .
> On Dec 14, 10:48 am, "jon.in.durham" <j...@no.email.co.uk> wrote:
>> From now on England is going to be making it's own whisky, I wonder
> what
>> Scottish president Alex McFatboy is going to to do to stop it.
>
> The elderly man said, "Men drink whisky, women drink beer.
> -------------------
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/3808291.stm
>
> I am sure that this Cumbrian whisky will be a malt to equal the finest,
> and it should be, for it is a whisky master from Scotland who is to
> select the waters, the barley and to nose the finished product.
>
> As I recall it was laid down several years ago before I retired from
> my travails in the nuclear industry. Indeed, from recollection I did
> record a modest interest in the laid down stock, by way of
> half-a-dozen bottles at the time. As you will know, a fine malt
> takes long in its maturation, and I do not hold my breath for
> the first maturation of the Cumbria. I have previously, partaken
> of a first malting of an Austrian distillation of not inconsiderable
> robustness and roundness of nose.
>
> All sorts of people can make a good whisky, you know.
> It is not a uniquely Scottish art, albeit we are self evidently the
> best.!
Plus the English already contribute to much of Scotland's malt whisky.
Simpsons at Berwick supply malt, including peated malt, to many distiiliries
including Macallans and Bladnoch.
Allan
Charles Ellson
wrote:
"Berwick" as in the occupied Scottish town ?
The Phantom Piper
>
> Simpsons at Berwick supply malt, including peated malt,
> to many distiiliries including Macallans and Bladnoch.
All the more reason to drink the Balvenie Single Barrel;
they grow their own Barley, malt it themselves on their
Malting Floor, distil it in stills maintained by their own
coppersmith, and age it in barrels maintained by their
own Cooper.
(Of course, I'm an even bigger fan of the Aberlour A'bunadh,
and it's so *damned* good that I wouldn't give a toss if it
came from Queen Lizard's privy loo, so there you have it:
I can be bought.)
Thirsty Now,
The Phantom Piper
The Phantom Piper
>
> "Berwick" as in the occupied Scottish town ?
LOL!
You work with the Law, yes? If so, it's *you*
I want handling the issue of those Back Taxes
from the Tynedale Region (dating to the reign of
William The Lion), as well as the re-negotiation
of all the Water and Power contracts, when full
independence from England is finally achieved!
Counting On You,
The Phantom Piper
Allan
"Charles Ellson" <cha...@ellson.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:mbd0j5t4jj046ttu9...@4ax.com...
Well of course Berwick proper, that is part of that part of the town north
of the river used to be in Scotland. But to be pernickity - Simpsons is in
Tweedmouth which, like Spittal, used to be completely seperate communities
from Berwick. The various communities became linked to Berwick itself in the
17thC when the Union Bridge was built across the Tweed. I think it would be
the late 19thC or perhaps even the 20thC until Tweedmouth and Spittal became
part of a wider Berwick as such.
Allan
Charles Ellson
wrote:
>
>"Charles Ellson" <cha...@ellson.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:mbd0j5t4jj046ttu9...@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 21:08:07 -0000, "Allan" <al...@noemail.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>>Plus the English already contribute to much of Scotland's malt whisky.
>>>Simpsons at Berwick supply malt, including peated malt, to many
>>>distiiliries
>>>including Macallans and Bladnoch.
>>>
>> "Berwick" as in the occupied Scottish town ?
>
>Well of course Berwick proper, that is part of that part of the town north
>of the river used to be in Scotland.
>
It still is, it has never been formally annexed to *ngland.
Allan
> On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 07:27:51 -0000, "Allan" <al...@noemail.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Charles Ellson" <cha...@ellson.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>news:mbd0j5t4jj046ttu9...@4ax.com...
>>> On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 21:08:07 -0000, "Allan" <al...@noemail.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>>Plus the English already contribute to much of Scotland's malt whisky.
>>>>Simpsons at Berwick supply malt, including peated malt, to many
>>>>distiiliries
>>>>including Macallans and Bladnoch.
>>>>
>>> "Berwick" as in the occupied Scottish town ?
>>
>>Well of course Berwick proper, that is part of that part of the town north
>>of the river used to be in Scotland.
>>
> It still is, it has never been formally annexed to *ngland.
For many years it was neither in Scotland nor fully part of England but it
is formally part of England now and has been for some time. It is also now
officially part of Northumberland. It hasn't actually been part of Scotland
for well over half a millenium. Saying that there is a significant minority
of the population who are Scots. A couple of years back there was a lot in
the local media and on Radio Borders etc about running a poll to see whether
Berwickers wanted to return to Scotland or not. There was even a TV
programme about it. When the debate came about though it was pretty clear
that it was not really about genuinely wanting to switch. It was more a
publicity vehicle for some local Berwick politicos to point out the
differences in services offered on the different sides of the Borders in
regard to care for the old and student fees etc. That died a death without
Berwick folk taking it too seriously. After that there was another story
running about whether it was possible for Berwick to join the Scottish
Borders Region local authority (along with Roxburghshire, Selkirkshire,
Peeblesshire and of course Berwickshire) rather than being part of
Northumberland, but for it to remain within England. Again that was a story
for a couple of weeks probably dreamed up by some local politician. Though
these wee stories tend to get Christine Graham all excited I imagine the
vast majority of the Berwick folk would regard them as pretty irrelevent. To
get them on side perhaps the Holyrood government should do some serious
bribing? There is no doubt that born and bred Berwickers are English rather
than Scots, but like many people in the far north of England, they feel
estranged from London. Likewise Berwick is a very Scottish town for being in
England and local Berwickers are very positive about Scots.. You often see
both the Scottish and English flags being displayed. Something you don't
tend to see in the Border towns north of the border. So maybe if Holyrood
did gestures like upgrading the A1 through Berwickshire right to the Border
it would put pressure on the English side to do the same from Morpeth up to
the Border - and score brownie points with the locals and making them feel
closer to an Edinburgh govt.
Allan
Jellore
> "Charles Ellson" <char...@ellson.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:73v2j5pedl2l6h9og...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 07:27:51 -0000, "Allan" <al...@noemail.co.uk>
> > wrote:
>
Not having been to Berwick for more then 30 years, how would you
describe the accent of a born and bred Berwicker?
Charles Ellson
wrote:
>
>"Charles Ellson" <cha...@ellson.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:73v2j5pedl2l6h9og...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 07:27:51 -0000, "Allan" <al...@noemail.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Charles Ellson" <cha...@ellson.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>news:mbd0j5t4jj046ttu9...@4ax.com...
>>>> On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 21:08:07 -0000, "Allan" <al...@noemail.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>Plus the English already contribute to much of Scotland's malt whisky.
>>>>>Simpsons at Berwick supply malt, including peated malt, to many
>>>>>distiiliries
>>>>>including Macallans and Bladnoch.
>>>>>
>>>> "Berwick" as in the occupied Scottish town ?
>>>
>>>Well of course Berwick proper, that is part of that part of the town north
>>>of the river used to be in Scotland.
>>>
>> It still is, it has never been formally annexed to *ngland.
>
>For many years it was neither in Scotland nor fully part of England but it
>is formally part of England now and has been for some time. It is also now
>officially part of Northumberland.
>
Westminster legislation describes it as part of Northumberland but the
Wales and Berwick Act 1746 (now repealed) did not annexe it but merely
applied *nglish legislation to it. The Local Government Act 1972 etc.
merely treats it as part of *ngland but no legislation has ever
specifically made it part of *ngland and removed it from Scotland.
"Time immemorial" does not apply as the relevant circumstances
post-date 1189.
<snip>
Allan
There has been no specific legislation fully integrating Berwick into
England rather it has simply evolved that way over the last two or three
centuries. Berwick is part of England geographically being south of the
border; it is part of the English local government system; and most
importantly it is traditionally and popularly part of England being regarded
as so by the vast bulk of Berwickers. People looking for the non-existence
of little bits of paper is neither here nor there in the real world. Saying
that it is perfectly possible that towns change from one to the other and
there have been precedents in Wales. Plus of course Berwick may be less
secluded being closer to a Holyrood govt than a Westminster one. Locally
much of the hinterland for Berwick's traders is Scottish. In Kelso we are
right on the cusp where it is a toss up if we go to Berwick or Gala for
shopping but east of here (eg Coldstream, Duns etc) then they are far more
likely to go regularly to Berwick. But for Berwick to rejoin Scotland the
existence or non-existence of scraps of legislation is irrelevant. What
would be needed is a major change in the self-identity of Berwickers. I was
suggseting some buttering them up might help - and the best way to do that
would be to upgrade the A1. It is one of the major roads between London and
Edinburgh except for a realtively small stretch between Wooler and Dunbar.
Apart from a couple of tiny pieces like the Berwick by-pass itself this
major road becomes just another trunk road and through north-Northumberland
and Berwickshire this is greatly resented. The Scottish Parliament would get
lots of brownie points there.
Allan
Allan
"Jellore" <jel...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:d3b34cb3-78e5-430d...@n38g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 23, 7:13 pm, "Allan" <al...@noemail.co.uk> wrote:
> "Charles Ellson" <char...@ellson.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:73v2j5pedl2l6h9og...@4ax.com...
Not having been to Berwick for more then 30 years, how would you
describe the accent of a born and bred Berwicker?
******************************
Sorry but I'm not very good at describing accents to tell you the truth. I
think most English people would think the Berwick accent was Scottish and
most Scots would recognise it as English. Borderers would normally instantly
recognise whether someone was from Berwick or Norham as opposed to Eyemouth
or Coldstream.
Allan
Charles Ellson
wrote:
Read that last part-sentence to yourself and have a good think about
it.
>it is part of the English local government system; and most
>importantly it is traditionally and popularly part of England being regarded
>as so by the vast bulk of Berwickers.
>
Polls in recent years do not support the description of "vast bulk".
>People looking for the non-existence
>of little bits of paper is neither here nor there in the real world.
>
Try telling that to a judge.
Allan
> On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 07:23:32 -0000, "Allan" <al...@noemail.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>>it is part of the English local government system; and most
>>importantly it is traditionally and popularly part of England being
>>regarded
>>as so by the vast bulk of Berwickers.
>>
> Polls in recent years do not support the description of "vast bulk".
Do you actually know many people from Berwick?
Allan
Charles Ellson
wrote:
That is not relevant as it would be a small number of people not
generally representative of the general population.
Polls which deal with hundreds of people have shown significant
numbers (including majorities) in favour of Berwick being returned to
Scottish rule :-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tyne/7248529.stm
Allan
Eh being local (live not far from, visit all the time, worked in Berwick
surrounds for 17 years, know lots of Berwick folk, access to the local media
etc) means that one is less likely to be taken in by hype surrounding a TV
programme. When it arrived the whole basis of this programme was to slag
off the Scots who were supposedly being subsidised by the English. The whole
basis of using Berwick was to show the population as being jealous of
services in Scotland. The discussion on local radio shows was much more
sensible. It was pretty apparent that a couple of local Berwick politicos
were drumming it up to highlight their lack of services rather than there
being a real desire to return to Scotland.
Basically forgetting that a poll held by a TV programme which wants to give
a slant to itself and drum up lots of publicity is naturally unreliable.
Even if you did have a proper street poll of folk in Berwick town centre
there are still other issues. The result is of course naturally slanted
because of Berwick's sizeable Scottish community. The whole burgh has
something like 15% Scottish born but the wards north of the river in the
town centre supposedly have over 20% Scottish born. One would imagine that
if asked vast bulk of those would be happy to see Berwick join Scotland but
that doesn't mean it bothers them much. That of course is relevant as they
have as mush right to a voice as born and bred Berwickers. However asking
shoppers in Berwick town centre isn't necessarily relevant. Have you shopped
often in Berwick? Would you recognise a Kelso, Duns, Coldstream or Eyemouth
dialect from a Berwick one even if you had? Basically much of Berwick's
hinterland is parts of the Scottish Borders and a great many Scottish
Borderers shop in the town, not to mention those who work in the town. When
shopping in Berwick you can hear as many Scottish voices as you hear English
voices. If you ask Scottish Borderers if they think it would be good for
Berwick to be in Scotland then I'd imagine virtually everyone would say yes.
That is a totally different thing from people born, brought up, and actually
living in Berwick wanting to be part of Scotland again.
As to the poll itself I believe the question used was something like "do you
think Berwick would be better off back in Scotland" which is not the same as
asking if they actually want Berwick to be back in Scotland. Remember this
was held during a local debate highlighting services on either side of the
border. The Berwick Advertiser held an on-line poll showing that about 80%
thought Berwick would be better off back in Scotland but freely admits
itself that it had no way of knowing where the voters came from. The paper
held another poll shortly afterwards asking if they actually wanted Berwick
to return to Scotland and only 20% said they wanted that. I suspect that
poll was equally flawed but of course it gains no headlines elsewhere as
Berwick folk want to stay as they are isn't newsworthy.
http://www.berwick-advertiser.co.uk/news/Better-off-in-Scotland-but.3798320.jp
The good thing about the internet is folk have the opportunity to get ideas
of what the rest of the world is like - though we often have a tendancy to
dismiss local insight when we come across it.
Allan
Scotty
Perhaps now is the time to ask my question. I always thought that the
historic Scottish border was the river Tweed, at least in the east, never
mind the Administrative boundaries.
Yet, I have a picture of myself in front of a great big, 8ft flagstone with
"the border of Scotland" painted on it, it must have been the A68 because
we passed through Jedburgh. And where do the Cheviot Hills come into the
picture? Actually looking at GE has probably answered my question but maybe
an explanation would help clarify.
Allan
"Scotty" <nob...@home.net> wrote in message
news:a6rgj5ttirs45t1dp...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 23:58:51 +0000, Charles Ellson
> <cha...@ellson.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 20:15:33 -0000, "Allan" <al...@noemail.co.uk>
>>wrote:
> historic Scottish border was the river Tweed, at least in the east, never
> mind the Administrative boundaries.
>
> Yet, I have a picture of myself in front of a great big, 8ft flagstone
> with
> "the border of Scotland" painted on it, it must have been the A68 because
> we passed through Jedburgh. And where do the Cheviot Hills come into the
> picture? Actually looking at GE has probably answered my question but
> maybe
> an explanation would help clarify.
Scotty the Tweed is only the border for a relatively small section of its
total course. That is from a couple of miles or so from Berwick until
approximately the village of Carham which lies between Coldstream and Kelso.
From there the border actually runs back in a south-easterly direction
heading into the Cheviots where it again turns to a south-westerly
direction. Through most of the middle part of the country the high points of
the Cheviots themselves are the border. Where you weer standing was the
Carter Bar border crossing. It is an easy picture to get in one's head if
someone says Both Sides The Tweed etc but for most of its way it is a
nonsense. Whilst the border runs in a southerly direction into the Cheviots
the Tweed runs deep into Scotland. Coldstream is the only Scottish town of
any size where the river is actually the border. After that when it is only
a Scottish river it runs through Kelso, past Melrose and Galashiels then
eventually through Peebles and beyond.
cheers
Allan
Charles Ellson
Carter Bar ? The border takes a left turn off the River Tweed after
heading inland past Carham and then wanders up a small stream which
Google Earth does not seem to have labelled before reaching Carter
Bar. IIRC the big stone markers were put up some years ago as the more
ordinary signs kept disappearing; according to an article in the Scots
Magazine a few years ago there are smaller stone markers/posts on the
"off-road" sections of the border which do not coincide with natural
features.
>And where do the Cheviot Hills come into the
>picture? Actually looking at GE has probably answered my question but maybe
>an explanation would help clarify.
>
It looks like some of the peaks do a "join the dots" job between the
eastbound and westbound watercourses. The meandering nature of the
border in the hills possibly depends on who held what bit of land the
last time the border moved; drawing borders in straight lines would
have been a later invention.
Allan
> On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 23:09:15 +0200, Scotty <nob...@home.net> wrote:
>
>>Yet, I have a picture of myself in front of a great big, 8ft flagstone
>>with
>>"the border of Scotland" painted on it, it must have been the A68 because
>>we passed through Jedburgh.
>>
> Carter Bar ? The border takes a left turn off the River Tweed after
> heading inland past Carham and then wanders up a small stream which
> Google Earth does not seem to have labelled before reaching Carter
> Bar.
The border crossing on that road from Carham to Kelso is a small bridge over
the Carham Burn and yes the border does follow the said burn but only for a
short while as the burn peters out after a mile or so. Between the end of
the burn and the Yetholm area the border for most of its path simply follows
the boundaries of agricultural fields, zigzaging about, though for several
short sections it goes along small roads. I take it the exact position of
where the border is was argued over and sorted out by local landowners in
the distant past though I'm not sure. The river sections and the Cheviot
sections are clear enough but there seems no real rhyme or reason for the
zigzaging between Tweed and Yetholm.
Though the Scottish Borders suffered English occupation for periods, and
Scotland tried to move the border south and succeeded for periods, the
border in the east, Berwick apart, is believed to be roughly as it was after
the Battle of Carham in 1018 between the Scots and the Northumbrian Earldom
of Bamburgh. Maybe the fact that the said battle took place at Carham
explains why the Border goes a bit funny there as the victorious Scots
grabbed what land they wanted? Just a theory.
Allan
Scotty
<cha...@ellson.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Thanks Allan, Charles. It was a trip we did in '91 which more or less
coincided with our 30th wedding anniversary. We had visited Dryburgh,
Jedburgh and thence headed to York Munster. It has a magnificent Organ and
I love organs :-) Carter Bar was the name I needed to fill in the hole,
it's much easier to search if one has a name..
But back to history, when was the present border agreed and where was the
previous agreed border if one existed or was it like most of Europe's
borders and quite mobile, as a Borderer family from 'Tweedside' we were
probably responsible for some of the instability.
Scott.
Allan
The border in the east of the country despite various attempts by both sides
to extend it is basically, Berwick apart, as it was after the Battle of
Carham in 1018. From the Forth down to Yorkshire had been Northumbria which
was one of the Anglo-Saxon heptachery kingdoms though the population was
mixed Germanic and Celtic Britons. With the Danish invasion of England the
southern part of Northumbria (ie Deira) became part of the Danelaw. The rump
of Northumbria was the northern part (ie Bernicia) which really was no
longer a strong kingdom and came under pressure from the expanding Scottish
kingdom of Alba which was probably in control of much of Lothian and the
Borders by the 10thC. In 1018 the Scots heavily defeated the Bernicians at
Carham and the occupation of Bernicia from the Forth down to the Cheviots
became permanent annexation. Had Anglo-Saxon England been united and
stronger then the border may well have been on the Firth of Forth.
I'm not so sure off the top of my head about the western side. The former
British kingdoms of the west were under Scottish dominance and Strathclyde
too became officially part of Scotland shortly after Carham. It looked like
Cumbria too would become fully integrated within Scotland but in the period
after the Norman harrowing of northern England the Anglo-Normans basically
secured the current border there when William Rufus built Carlisle Castle
at the end of the 11thC. He also built the castle at Newcastle which would
almost suggest that the Normans would be content to have their border there
at the south of Bernicia but a couple of decades later the likes of Norham
Castle which is right on the Tweed were being built by the English. This was
a major cause of early conflict as Scottish kings attempted to secure all of
Bernicia within Scotland. They claimed it as Scottish and the monarchs
actually personally owned some of the territory at times.
So basically from the early 12thC the border is just about as is now apart
from Berwick. The only other anomaly was several strips of ground known as
Debateable Lands - the most significant one being near Canonbie in the west.
Some of the major reiving clans like the Armstrongs and Elliots made the
most of the disputed lands to evade both Scottish and English jurisdiction
so in the 1550s the two kingdoms eventually settled the dispute and an
official partition of the debatebale lands took place and a boundary was
built.
cheers
Allan
Scotty
Thanks Allan,
Nicely encapsulated and lots for me to follow up,
Scott
Robert Peffers
You may like to look at this site which has several interesting bits of
information.
http://www.secretscotland.org.uk/index.php/Secrets/ScottishBorder
I also remember reading a webpage that dealt with anomalies on the border.
This showed the legal documents of the treaties and legal papers through the
years. One item seemed to prove that one agreement that allowed the English
to administer the town of Berwick upon Tweed did ONLY that but did not
transfer the town to England. I cannot remember the web address though,.
--
Auld Bob
Charles Ellson
That would seem to tie in nicely with the Wales and Berwick Act
applying English Law but making no attempt to imply annexation. I've
just tripped over a US case involving Gitmo (BOUMEDIENE et al. v.
BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, et al) which mentions Berwick
WRT places which are under a country's rule but not part of that
country; this in turn gives an *nglish legal reference (Eng. Rep. 587,
599 (KB 1759) ) which appears to refer to words that Berwick is "[even
if...] no part of the realm of England" although it would be nice to
see exactly what is in the original case.
Robert Peffers
There is a treaty, or perhaps an agreement, somewhere that is quite clear
Berwick is still Scottish but under English administration. I read a copy of
it on a website about where the border was when Westminster grabbed a chunk
of the North Sea as English after oil was discovered. Anyway, I'll try to
find the reference to the documents and post the results if I find it.
--
Auld Bob
Robert Peffers
it --- --- ---
------------------------------------------------------------------
Bewildering history
Berwick, a small settlement in the Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Northumbria, was
taken in 1018 by the Scots at the Battle of Carham. The town changed hands
about every 15 years until 1482, when Edward IV captured it for England.
Under the Treaty of Perpetual Peace between Henry VII of England and James
VI of Scotland in 1502, Berwick was given status as being "of" the Kingdom
of England but not "in" it. As a result the town needed special mention in
royal proclamations. When Queen Victoria declared war on Russia in 1853 she
did so in the name of Victoria, Queen of Great Britain, Ireland,
Berwick-upon-Tweed and the British Dominions beyond the sea. As Berwick was
not mentioned in the Treaty of Paris in 1856, it was technically still at
war until a peace treaty.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
It rather looks like Berwick Upon Tweed is still actually a part of
Scotland.
--
Auld Bob
Allan
"Robert Peffers" <peff...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:mZidnb2DbLwf9qHW...@bt.com...
>> applying English Law but making no attempt to imply annexation. I've
>> just tripped over a US case involving Gitmo (BOUMEDIENE et al. v.
>> BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, et al) which mentions Berwick
>> WRT places which are under a country's rule but not part of that
>> country; this in turn gives an *nglish legal reference (Eng. Rep. 587,
>> 599 (KB 1759) ) which appears to refer to words that Berwick is "[even
>> if...] no part of the realm of England" although it would be nice to
>> see exactly what is in the original case.
>
>
> There is a treaty, or perhaps an agreement, somewhere that is quite clear
> Berwick is still Scottish but under English administration. I read a copy
> of it on a website about where the border was when Westminster grabbed a
> chunk of the North Sea as English after oil was discovered. Anyway, I'll
> try to find the reference to the documents and post the results if I find
> it.
Berwick was once regarded as being 'of England but not in it'which wasn't
the same as saying it was in Scotland. Berwick is however now formally part
of England and formally part of Northumberland. These things in the UK
have just developed. It works the other way too. Wales was annexed by
England and by law was part of the English kingdom itself. Only within the
last century was it stated again that Wales was different from England and
this was only initially mentioned in one of the Welsh Language Acts rather
than any Act actually pertaining to Welsh status. Looking for little bits of
paper or the lack of little bits of paper from centuries ago isn't really
going to cut much ice in the real world. What counts is the reality that has
been in the past and modern public opinion and there is no great rush from
Berwickers for them to be Scottish.
The sea thing of course had nothing to do with Berwickers as such. It was
Labour Party shenanigans and what Scottish Labour accepted as the price for
devolution. Traditionally the border between Scottish and English sea waters
went out a horizontal line - but Labour changed that so that it followed the
usual line going out in the direction of the border at that point. They
claimed that this related to fishing law and wouldn't affect Scotland's
ownership or non-ownership of oil and gas etc - but being a cycnic I'd take
that with a massive dose of salty water, and I imagine that on independence
there'd be a big debate about what water is and isn't Scottish.
On a different matter there is another anomaly in regard to frash water
fishing. Tweed is regarded as a wholy Scottish river in regard to river
fishing. Not only that but so does its tributaries. Tweed only has one major
English tributary but that too (ie the Till) comes under Scottish
jurisdiction and Scots Law. It is a mirror image on the other side of the
country where the River Esk is under English jurisdiction.
Allan
Robert Peffers
"Allan" <al...@noemail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:yyi%m.22866$hP3....@newsfe30.ams2...
Actually that is not true. Even if it was the act of parliament,
Westminster, that instigated the Welsh Assembly returned Wales.
> Looking for little bits of paper or the lack of little bits of paper from
> centuries ago isn't really going to cut much ice in the real world.
Oh! Good! Then we will just need to tear up the Scottish Act Of Union and
that will be that.
Aye! That'll be richt!
Fact is these treaties and Acts are still legal documents and enforcable
under both Scottish and English Law.
Unless, of course, an act of parliament were to change them.
The point is which Parliament is going to do it?
If the Scottish Parliament, Mk1 drew up the Act of Scottish act of Union and
the English Parliament Mk1 drew up the English Act of Union them we must
assume that if either of these parliaments were to be recalled they could
recind their own acts. Westminster cannot for Westminster parliament is the
UK parliament.
> What counts is the reality that has been in the past and modern public
> opinion and there is no great rush from Berwickers for them to be
> Scottish.
Thing is that if Scotland were to become independent, and bothered to take
Berwick back, what choice would they have?
As I pointed out there is no document that transferred Berwick to England
but there is one that says it is still part of Scotland.
The international court would have little choice.
>
> The sea thing of course had nothing to do with Berwickers as such. It was
> Labour Party shenanigans and what Scottish Labour accepted as the price
> for devolution. Traditionally the border between Scottish and English sea
> waters went out a horizontal line - but Labour changed that so that it
> followed the usual line going out in the direction of the border at that
> point. They claimed that this related to fishing law and wouldn't affect
> Scotland's ownership or non-ownership of oil and gas etc - but being a
> cycnic I'd take that with a massive dose of salty water, and I imagine
> that on independence there'd be a big debate about what water is and isn't
> Scottish.
No need for a debate, the International law of the sea is quite clear on
that matter.
It either follows the agreed line or international law takes over.
>
> On a different matter there is another anomaly in regard to frash water
> fishing. Tweed is regarded as a wholy Scottish river in regard to river
> fishing. Not only that but so does its tributaries. Tweed only has one
> major English tributary but that too (ie the Till) comes under Scottish
> jurisdiction and Scots Law. It is a mirror image on the other side of the
> country where the River Esk is under English jurisdiction.
>
> Allan
If it is over the border it is theirs.
--
Auld Bob
Allan
>> centuries ago isn't really going to cut much ice in the real world.
>
> Oh! Good! Then we will just need to tear up the Scottish Act Of Union and
> that will be that.
Well I believe the SNP's position is that if the Scottish people decide they
wish to become independent then that gives them the mandate to move towards
reciding that said Treaty. So of course the wishes of people living in
modern Scotland ultimately carries the authority. Besides that is a bad
example to use in this case. The reality is that the UK has been around for
centuries and that Scotland is part of it. You are trying to deny the
reality on the ground over Berwick's position.
>> What counts is the reality that has been in the past and modern public
>> opinion and there is no great rush from Berwickers for them to be
>> Scottish.
>
> Thing is that if Scotland were to become independent, and bothered to take
> Berwick back, what choice would they have?
Bob that is hardly going to get you many friends or influence people in and
around Berwick. Many of the troubles of the world are down to people
dwelling on centuries long gone past and little bits of paper or even myth -
and putting these above people's lives and identities in the modern world.
Besides it is a bit unrealistic. The idea that an independent Scotland could
(or would even want to) by force easily take control of a piece of England
is plainly daft. What in this scenario would you do about the Berwickers?
Should they live unwillingly in Scotland or would you have them ethnically
cleansed?
Allan
Josiah Jenkins
wrote:
Just remove their 'cockles' !
For the furriners :
http://www.villagesweetshop.com/showprod_MNT22.htm
--
http://www.ian-stewart.eu
Allan
"Josiah Jenkins" <josiah-jenkins@somewhere_else.invalid> wrote in message
news:glbuj55f0ghspolme...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 2 Jan 2010 08:31:12 -0000, "Allan" <al...@noemail.co.uk>
> wrote:
> Just remove their 'cockles' !
Kicke then in the Hawick Balls and Berwick Cockles then watch them crawl
like Jethart Snails holding on to their Gala Soor Plooms!
Allan
Josiah Jenkins
wrote:
Bah, humbug !
--
http://www.ian-stewart.eu
La N
Mmmmm ... I wonder how cockles would fare against mussels .......
- nil
Josiah Jenkins
wrote:
Cockles, yeuch !
Whereas Moules . . . yes please
--
http://www.ian-stewart.eu
Allan
"La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:SUL%m.60020$PH1.29252@edtnps82...
Ah but we are on about little sweeties (as are the mentioned Balls, Snails
and Plooms) and the only mussels you need are muscles to open the jar lid
:-)
Allan