Bagpipes
Simon Cooper
Could someone with experience of playing a variety of bagpipes please
explain to a Welsh-Boy:-
1. Are Bagpipes reasonably easy to learn to play?
2. Of the many bagpipes is there one type that is easyer to
learn?
3. How can I go about finding a teacher should I elect to persue
the matter further.
Thanks.
(Remove the NOSPAM from my Email Address to Mail Me.)
Charles Mcgregor
In message <33c68561...@news.btinternet.com>
NOSPAM.S...@btinternet.com (Simon Cooper) writes:
> Thanks.
No!
You can be excused for imagining that they may be as easy as say a
recorder or flageolet, however:-
Highland pipes(The marching pipe band type)
The reeds are unstable and subject to prevailing conditions of heat
and humidity, this means tuning of chanter and drones virtually every
time they are used and even requiring repeated tuning throughout a
single evening. The tuning takes a considerable time to master since
the note produced is far from a pure tone. This is why even seasoned
pipers use a droneless, bagless chanter when only practicing.(That
and the neighbours ;-))
Then there is the problem that the notes produced can vary slightly
with bag pressure, so to avoid wavering the bag pressure control has
to be good, this effectively means releasing the arm pressure
slightly to compensate for when you breathe in to the bag.
Then there is the intricacies of fingering, colouring, doubling,
tripling and birling of
notes.
Then there is the notoriusly difficult timing in certain great music pieces.
Gordon Duncan is a fabulous piper.
Lowland pipes or Cauld Wind Pipes
In these pipes bellows operated by one arm provide the air for the
bag under the other arm.
They are still subject to the tuning problems of highland pipes.
They are getting popular with highland pipers since the fingering is
still the same (for most available chanter keys) although the hole
spacing is less. Also, unlike Northumbrian pipes, they still sound a
lot like the highland pipes, just lower volume, so are ideal for
confined spaces where the highland pipes are too loud. Northumbrian
pipes have no end hole in the chanter and so the notes produced have
a less open, 'popping' characteristic.
The pressure control is much harder on the cauld wind pipes, or at
least I found it so, getting a non wavering note took so much
concentration it was difficult(= impossible for me) to play the
tunes. I sold my set after a frustrating year.
Hamish Moore is probably the name to check out in your record shop
for cauld wind pipes.
Kathryn Tickell for Northumbrian pipes.
Irish pipes or Ullian pipes
I've never tried them, but in truth they are the state of the art in
pipes technology, the Highland pipes technical development has been
restricted by tradition/formalism IMO.
These pipes have a sweeter tone and the drones have also have keys on
them which enable drone chord changing, they also have a greater range.
Davy Spillane is the one to check out here.
The type of pipes you choose depends on the type of music you want,
vigorous marches and reels
you can't beat the highland pipes, sweet sentimentality...the ullian
pipes, poignancy...either but for me the 'great music' played by a
good higland piper shades it.
Costs
Cauld wind/Northumbrian basic set 600 quid
Highland 1500 quid
Ullian 3000 quid
--
Chic McGregor / //
chi...@zetnet.co.uk ////
///
"We have catcht Scotland, and will hold her fast." ///
Hagbard Celine
>Could someone with experience of playing a variety of bagpipes please
>explain to a Welsh-Boy:-
>
>1. Are Bagpipes reasonably easy to learn to play?
>2. Of the many bagpipes is there one type that is easyer to
>learn?
>3. How can I go about finding a teacher should I elect to persue
>the matter further.
>
>Thanks.
>
1.) The common wisdom is that it takes seven years to make a piper.
Most of your practice-time will be with a practice chanter (unless you
are the only tenant of a deserted island) as will most of your entire
first year. Blowing-hard in this group is very good windpipe-training.
2.) Uillean pipes (Irish) are most definitely *not* the easiest to
learn. Of what's left, Scottish smallpipes are probably the most easy
to learn. For a Welshman, the pipe probably most "appropriate"
(geographically) would be a Northumbrian smallpipe (they are bellows
blown, and have tunable drones, eliminating simplicity). But, let's
face facts, the pipes everyone is accustomed to hearing (and which are
*still* classed as a "weapon of war" by the English (and hence not
*allowed* into London parliament) are the Great Highland Pipes.
If you're in Scotland, just ask one of the many pipe-instructors
you'll be tripping over as you walk down the street in any town or
city. If you're in the States, just look in the Yellow Pages under
"musical instruction. If you're in Wales, you MUST study the harp,
instead.
Be prepared to get a good set (nothing too ornate in chased silver,
unless money is no object), at around 500 to 2,000 pounds ($800 to
$3,000), like a Gillanders-&-MacLeod. However, beware! Many scottish
bagpipe manufacturers are importing cheap Pakistani sets (you do know
they were invented in that part of the world, don't you?) and stamping
them with their own brand. They are forbidden to stamp, "Made In
Scotland" on such a set though, so if you see that, it's probably all
right. If you're lucky, you'll find an antique set by Gillanders,
Henderson, Lawrie, or some other reputable manufacturer. Dinna stint
on the practice-chanter either; get a good one and it'll serve you
well. I've tried the plaisdigh (plastic) reeds, and whereas I can't
honestly say they sound any different, there's something unnatural
about a reed that never breaks and never requires re-tying or waxing.
If you get an antique set, be sure to buy some light and heavy hemp
and some bag-seasoning (and ask the seller to pump `em up and play `em
so you can feel, look, and listen for leaks and listen for drone
dissonance). A chanter should last more than a lifetime unless it's
been soaked in saltwater or the like.
Good Luck and Hail Eris,
---H.C.
Hagbard Celine
On Sat, 12 Jul 1997 01:23:02 GMT, mik...@backhaulnet.com (Micheil Rob
Mac Phŕdruig) wrote:
>
>Hagbard, I am puzzled by you. You are obviously highly intelligent,
>have made excellent sense to date, and apart from a couple of easily
>overlookable peculiarities such as your curious name and your equally
>curious habit of ending your posts with "Hail Eris", are apparently an
>all-round decent sort of bloke who lives in San Francisco. Yet you are
>ominously well-informed on Scottish matters, even though your persona
>screams "ANGLO-AMERICAN!"
>
>Are you in fact Scottish?
>MacPhŕdruig on the Lam.
>
Call off the search hounds! Stop dredging the loch! Someone call
Amnesty International and tell `em it's O.K.! And, oh, anyone heard
from *Hamilton* lately???
I had thought carefully-worded taunts would suffice to lure the
prodigal back into the fold. As it turns out, he was just waiting to
read some sage advice to a puir Taffy piper. Tsk, tsk.
Don't know about my "persona," MacP (it's always behaving scurrilously
when I'm asleep or otherwise occupied [are you an animist?] I have
lived in this country for some 30-odd years (right here in S.F. for
the past 20) --- it's my hame. Watch that "ANGLO-" stuff wouldya...
If I told you I was a citizen of the world, would that suffice?
Perhaps I think there's enough crap to go around the wide world over
(yes, even in the bonnie hills back home; some of that fine angus
crap). Perhaps I'll now subvert just about anything/everything that
seems like it's a wee bit too comfortable with itself...
Ye'll just have to keep guessing, MacP. As I have explained on more
than one occasion, I employ the nom-de-net to safeguard my anonymity
and my privacy. There's good reasons for that. And "Hagbard" will go
the way of the dodo soon enough, eh? Re: "Hail Eris:" haul out your
Bullfinch's and have a gander. Or do a wab-search on +Kallisti +Eris,
mony a question will be answered. You're a troublemaker [I hasten to
add, a muckle great compliment, in my view] by nature; I'm one by
avocation.
Howsoever, if it'll make you feel any better:
"If it's not Scottish, it's CR-R-R-R-R-AP!"
Hiding the Malt (Hail Eris),
---Hagbard
P.S.: Did ye ken that the "Agent" spell-checker tries to suggest
"Phalloid" for your last name, and "Haggard" for my first name?
Think there's a message in that?
Micheil Rob Mac Phàdruig
B...@Hail.Eris (Hagbard Celine) wrote:
>On Fri, 11 Jul 1997 19:19:51 GMT, NOSPAM.S...@btinternet.com
>(Simon Cooper) wrote:
>>Could someone with experience of playing a variety of bagpipes please
>>explain to a Welsh-Boy:-
>>
>>1. Are Bagpipes reasonably easy to learn to play?
>>2. Of the many bagpipes is there one type that is easyer to
>>learn?
>>3. How can I go about finding a teacher should I elect to persue
>>the matter further.
>>
>>Thanks.
>>
>1.) The common wisdom is that it takes seven years to make a piper.
>Most of your practice-time will be with a practice chanter (unless you
>are the only tenant of a deserted island) as will most of your entire
>first year. Blowing-hard in this group is very good windpipe-training.
<snipped salient advice to eliminate scrolling-down time>
Hagbard, I am puzzled by you. You are obviously highly intelligent,
have made excellent sense to date, and apart from a couple of easily
overlookable peculiarities such as your curious name and your equally
curious habit of ending your posts with "Hail Eris", are apparently an
all-round decent sort of bloke who lives in San Francisco. Yet you are
ominously well-informed on Scottish matters, even though your persona
screams "ANGLO-AMERICAN!"
Are you in fact Scottish?
MacPhàdruig on the Lam.
Hagbard Celine
On Sat, 12 Jul 1997 05:19:54 GMT, B...@Hail.Eris (Hagbard Celine)
wrote:
>
>"If it's not Scottish, it's CR-R-R-R-R-AP!"
>
>Hiding the Malt (Hail Eris),
> ---Hagbard
>
>P.S.: Did ye ken that the "Agent" spell-checker tries to suggest
>"Phalloid" for your last name, and "Haggard" for my first name?
>Think there's a message in that?
>
qualified curmudgeon on this group (chic's too polite, and the Eirish
don't count). Will ya no' come back again?
Hairlessly Digited,
---H. Celine
Sandy
>
> P.S.: Did ye ken that the "Agent" spell-checker tries to suggest
> "Phalloid" for your last name, and "Haggard" for my first name?
> Think there's a message in that?
Go back to sleep and you might get an answer. BTW, there is some
research in the recent rash of posts by suposid MIC MAC. There is some
indication that these were just done to throw off the search. It has
been suggested that you are in the plot. Perhaps you will confess now
and we won't have to put you on the rack.
Sandy
Sandy
Hagbard Celine wrote:
>
> On Sat, 12 Jul 1997 05:19:54 GMT, B...@Hail.Eris (Hagbard Celine)
> wrote:
> >
> >"If it's not Scottish, it's CR-R-R-R-R-AP!"
> >
> >Hiding the Malt (Hail Eris),
> > ---Hagbard
> >
> >"Phalloid" for your last name, and "Haggard" for my first name?
> >Think there's a message in that?
> >
> qualified curmudgeon on this group (chic's too polite, and the Eirish
> don't count). Will ya no' come back again?
>
> Hairlessly Digited,
> ---H. Celine
We are looking into your backround as well. We think you are involved in
this plot as well. We won't have you trying to muddy the waters.
Sandy
Rusty Celt
Hagbard Celine wrote:
snipped to:
> Be prepared to get a good set (nothing too ornate in chased silver,
> unless money is no object), at around 500 to 2,000 pounds ($800 to
> $3,000), like a Gillanders-&-MacLeod. However, beware! Many scottish
> bagpipe manufacturers are importing cheap Pakistani sets (you do know
> they were invented in that part of the world, don't you?) and stamping
> them with their own brand. They are forbidden to stamp, "Made In
> Scotland" on such a set though, so if you see that, it's probably all
> right.
Hagbard is correct and I'd also like to point out that with the
Pakistani pipes, the chanters and drones are not hollowed properly.
They tend to splinter inside and this only grows worse over time, making
the tone even intolerable. They are usually off size as well and
several of the bags are made of goatskin. Goat is very stiff and makes
it even harder to set the pipes under the arm while trying to finger the
chanter. Should the bag need to be replaced, the Canmore Gortex bags
will not fit them. The Pakistani pipes usually run $250 (US) when they
are sold as Pakistani pipes. If purchased, like upgrading a computer,
one will end up replacing the pieces here and there until the pipes are
practically rebuilt. My youngest is currently learning on a set and she
was lucky. Her set is good for learning, but the splintering has grown
over the past year. As she seems be maintaining her interest, we have
every intention on purchasing a better set soon, before any major
expense is incurred by replacing parts, unlike others in her class
experienced. Oh! And we'll not even go into the natty tacky Royal
Stewart bagpipe cover with acylic wool fringe that came with these pipes
from Pakistan. Aaaargh! Trust me, one would never want to be seen in
public with it!
Rusty
Hagbard Celine
On Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:34:11 -0700, Sandy <ga...@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
>
>Go back to sleep and you might get an answer. BTW, there is some
>research in the recent rash of posts by suposid MIC MAC. There is some
>indication that these were just done to throw off the search. It has
>been suggested that you are in the plot. Perhaps you will confess now
>and we won't have to put you on the rack.
>
>Sandy
>
vigilance and caffeine are my watchwords. Besides, if you were
*really* searching for him, you'd have been trolling *Talisker* behind
you, instead of these *messages*. I could do with a nice stretch
about now... Nyahhhhh!
Hail Eris,
---Hagbard
Hagbard Celine
On Sat, 12 Jul 1997 13:27:32 -0700, Rusty Celt <rus...@exis.net>
wrote:
<snip of good information re deerskin over goat>
>My youngest is currently learning on a set and she was lucky. Her set
>is good for learning, but the splintering has grown over the past year. As
>she seems be maintaining her interest, we have every intention on purchasing
>a better set soon, before any major expense is incurred by replacing parts, unlike
>others in her class experienced.
>
>
Skirlgirl, is she?
:^},
---Hagbard
Sandy
It is quite apparent that you know more than you are letting on. I see
that our concerns are real. Your parinoia is showing its self. Besides we
will not release any information on our techniques at catching the elusive
MIC MAC. We would not wish to loose our head start.
Sandy
Adrienne N. Marshall
Sandy wrote:
> We won't have you trying to muddy the waters.
> >
> >Sandy
> Muddy Waters:
> excellent chap; do you(all) have any original recordings?
> ---Hagbard Celine
Well not all, but every one I can lay hands on! Also Howlin' Wolf, John
Lee Hooker, Bo Diddley, B.B. King, Buddy Guy, Lightnin' Hopkins, Blind
Lemon Jefferson, Albert Collins, Mississippi Fred MacDowell, Big Joe
Turner. etc, etc, etc- too many great Bluesmen to name here.
Adrienne
Hagbard Celine
On Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:56:50 -0700, Sandy <ga...@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
>
>We are looking into your backround as well. We think you are involved in
>
>Sandy
Who's "we?" Are you(all) the "them" I've been hearing so much about
lately? Sounds like the "plots" are all yours... Muddy Waters:
excellent chap; do you(all) have any original recordings?
Paranoia Will Destroya (Hail Eris),
---Hagbard Celine
Hagbard Celine
On Sat, 12 Jul 1997 16:51:24 -0700, "Adrienne N. Marshall"
<Adr...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>Well not all, but every one I can lay hands on! Also Howlin' Wolf, John
>Lee Hooker, Bo Diddley, B.B. King, Buddy Guy, Lightnin' Hopkins, Blind
>Lemon Jefferson, Albert Collins, Mississippi Fred MacDowell, Big Joe
>Turner. etc, etc, etc- too many great Bluesmen to name here.
>
>Adrienne
I am (very) impressed. It remains only to add that the "King of Rock
and Roll" is without a doubt Mr. Chuck Berry (who did *not* die on the
toilet as a result of obesity and drug-addiction), who is still
performing the many guitar-riffs he *invented* in small venues to this
very day. Not on-topic, but I felt a need to say it.
Hail Eris,
---Hagbard B. Good
Adrienne N. Marshall
> It remains only to add that the "King of Rock
> and Roll" is without a doubt Mr. Chuck Berry (who did *not* die on the
> toilet as a result of obesity and drug-addiction), who is still
> performing the many guitar-riffs he *invented* in small venues to this
> very day. Not on-topic, but I felt a need to say it.
>
> Hail Eris,
> ---Hagbard B. Good
Yes, Chuck Berry is *awesome* and still going strong, but I've heard he
learned everything he knew from Guitar Slim in the 1940's.
Not saying he stole it or anything, but if you listen to Slim it's just
a short jump to Johnny B. Good.
(Good conversation never stays on topic IMO.)
Regards,
Adrienne
georgette
In article <33C8E7...@pacbell.net>,
"Adrienne N. Marshall" <Adr...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>Yes, Chuck Berry is *awesome* and still going strong, but I've heard he
>learned everything he knew from Guitar Slim in the 1940's.
>Not saying he stole it or anything, but if you listen to Slim it's just
>a short jump to Johnny B. Good.
>
>(Good conversation never stays on topic IMO.)
>Regards,
>Adrienne
And succeeds, as this one did, to sometimes teach new
things to old brains. (Guitar Slim-and he was?)
georgette
Hagbard Celine
On Mon, 14 Jul 1997 07:53:51 -0700, "Adrienne N. Marshall"
<Adr...@pacbell.net> wrote:
<fascinating snip>
>I've heard that Chuck Berry loved these particular songs of Guitar Slims
>and also the amazing jumpin' jive sound of Louis Jordon. He seems to
>have put these and other influences together, funneled them through his
>genius and personality and created a whole new kind of music.
>
He certainly invented the "Berry Riff" (as it's known to guitarists
and sidemen the world over), among other things (not the least being
his spectacular stage-activity). My point was that what could
*possibly* keep him from being recognized as the "King of Rock and
Roll," instead of that fat guy, whazzizname?
>
>
>Adrienne
>(my appologies to anyone who feels I've gone way too off topic- I can't
>help it, I love music!)
It's one of the *best* reasons to live in San Francisco; do you ever
get to "Milestones" on 5th? If not, treat yourself.
Playin' a Keyboard Jus' Like Ringin' a Bell,
---Hagbard
georgette
Adrienne N. Marshall wrote:
> but just recently Specialty Records released a Guitar Slim CD on their
> "Legends of Specialty" series that has all the tracks he did for them
> from 1953-55. He was never really a star though, so if you want it,
> you'll have to find a store that can order it for you.
>
> Adrienne
> (my appologies to anyone who feels I've gone way too off topic- I can't
> help it, I love music!)
And mine for leading you down this hoary path!
Thank you so much, I will try to find this CD..
and thank you for love of this music.
georgette
Adrienne N. Marshall
> (Guitar Slim-and he was?)
> georgette
>
Guitar Slim's real name was Eddie Jones, born in Mississippi in 1926 and
died 1959. His early recordings don't sound like much (IMO) but several
songs on the later ones sound *almost* like rock and roll though they're
always classified as R&B (Most of these I have only heard on the radio-
his recordings are Rare). And it just so happens that on the ones that
do have that sound, a young *Ray Charles* played piano and arrangements.
Pretty cool huh?
I've heard that Chuck Berry loved these particular songs of Guitar Slims
and also the amazing jumpin' jive sound of Louis Jordon. He seems to
have put these and other influences together, funneled them through his
genius and personality and created a whole new kind of music.
I only have one old record of Guitar Slims that I bought from an old
lady at a garage sale for 50 cents (in mint condition too- what a
discovery!) - everyone I know who loves the Blues and R&B has coveted
this record (I've taped it so often I'm afraid its going to wear out!)-
Alan Smaill
B...@Hail.Eris (Hagbard Celine) writes:
> Oh, and it's been pure *hell* having to carry the load as the only
> qualified curmudgeon on this group (chic's too polite, and the Eirish
> don't count).
unqualified, I reckon.
> Will ya no' come back again?
>
will ye .....
> Hairlessly Digited,
> ---H. Celine
>
--
Alan Smaill email: A.Sm...@ed.ac.uk
LFCS, Dept. of Computer Science tel: 44-31-650-2710
University of Edinburgh
Hagbard Celine
On Tue, 15 Jul 1997 02:58:55 GMT, Alan Smaill <sma...@dcs.ed.ac.uk>
wrote:
>
>unqualified, I reckon.
>
Their poetic souls are incompatible with cynicism.
Read the literature.
>
>will ye .....
>
He's been posting as "on the Lam," what could a druidical armiger be
"on the lam" from?
>
>--
>Alan Smaill email: A.Sm...@ed.ac.uk
>LFCS, Dept. of Computer Science tel: 44-31-650-2710
>University of Edinburgh
>
---H. Celine
Adrienne N. Marshall
Hagbard wrote:
>lil' snip
> My point was that what could
> Roll," instead of that fat guy, whazzizname?
IMO, only stupidity. But He is *Better* than any old paunchy, white
polyester and fringe wearin' "King". (Aside from Duke Ellington and
Count Basie, I'm not all that fond of royals anyway).
Chuck Berry is the CREATOR, the Father, the Sire of all who follow in
his fabulous footsteps!
As far as the "King" goes- you know what I think? I think suburban white
people in the 50's really *needed* someone like Elvis to introduce them
to the great sounds of Black America.
Did he rip them off? Most Definitely (and shamefully) - but he did have
a pretty good voice (in the early years anyway) and after him, I don't
think anybody listening to the radio was ever sure who was white and who
was black. (Before Elvis, white rock and roll all sounded a lot like
Bill Haley and the Comets - in other words - zero soul).
Subsequently and luckily for us all, Elvis' success broke down quite a
few of the racial barriers that existed, and a huge number of black
musicians got to make a lot of records and (finally) have a chance to
perform for the kind of massive audiences they deserved.
But awww, poor Elvis! It must have been hard to go from Mr Macho to
girdle-wearing Mr Nacho! (I've always wondered, he had that huge
mansion- how come he didn't have a weight room?)
Lets face it - the "King" should have abdicated early, or if not that,
then he should have died young like Buddy Holly did, (Sorry, I know that
sounds cruel)- that way he would never have become the laughing stock he
is now. :-(
Quick summary:
The "King" is dead
Chuck Berry is the Creator
Long live Rock and Roll!
> It's one of the *best* reasons to live in San Francisco
I agree. This past Sunday I went to the Silent Film Festival at the
beautiful Castro Theater and heard the most spectacular live piano
accompaniments to silent films I've ever had the pleasure to hear. Great
music happens *everywhere* in S.F. - even on the street corners!
; do you ever
> get to "Milestones" on 5th? If not, treat yourself.
I thought I'd been to almost every club in the city at one time or
another, but no H.C., I've never been to Milestones. Is it a pub or a
club and what kinds of music do they usually
feature?
Regards,
Adrienne :-)
Rusty Celt
Hagbard Celine wrote:
> He's been posting as "on the Lam," what could a druidical armiger be
> "on the lam" from?
The screaming hordes of females he's wined, dined, and then didn't keep
promises to. This happens every year about this time. You'll get used
to it.
Mohosa, Numeral Tres
Hagbard Celine
On Tue, 15 Jul 1997 01:05:18 -0700, "Adrienne N. Marshall"
<Adr...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>As far as the "King" goes- you know what I think? I think suburban white
>people in the 50's really *needed* someone like Elvis to introduce them
>to the great sounds of Black America.
>
>
>But awww, poor Elvis! It must have been hard to go from Mr Macho to
>girdle-wearing Mr Nacho!
>
>
>Lets face it - the "King" should have abdicated early, or if not that,
>
It's better to burn out than to fade away; rust never sleeps, hey-hey.
>
>I thought I'd been to almost every club in the city at one time or
>another, but no H.C., I've never been to Milestones. Is it a pub or a
>club and what kinds of music do they usually feature?
>
>Regards,
>Adrienne :-)
>
I've lived on the west coast. Do give it a try some evening.
Hail Hail,
---Hagbard
Adrienne N. Marshall
> It's the closest thing I've seen to a New York style jazz club since
> I've lived on the west coast. Do give it a try some evening.
>
> Hail Hail,
> ---Hagbard
I will if I can find it. I've looked in the Bay Guardian but didn't see
an ad or the name in the club listings section. Whereabouts on 5th is
it?
You like jazz? Have you been to any of the jazz (or 40's swing) supper
clubs that have sprung up all over the city recently? 320 Rich St. is a
good place for both of those kinds of music and the food and drinks are
pretty good and not too expensive either. Also, if you haven't had a
chance- go to Yoshi's in Jack London Square over in Oakland. Always the
*best* jazz and great sushi too- it is a bit expensive, but always well
worth it.
Adrienne
Hagbard Celine
On Tue, 15 Jul 1997 18:53:15 -0700, "Adrienne N. Marshall"
<Adr...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>Whereabouts on 5th is it?
>
I always drive slowly down 5th looking for the brass sign (and
parking!). They're in the book.
>
>320 Rich St. is a good place for both of those kinds of music and
>the food and drinks are pretty good and not too expensive either.
>
>
>Also, if you haven't had a chance- go to Yoshi's in Jack London Square
>over in Oakland.
>
>
>Adrienne
Yers,
---H.C.
Adrienne N. Marshall
I wrote:
> >Also, if you haven't had a chance- go to Yoshi's in Jack London Square
> >over in Oakland.
> I never go to the foreign land of Oakland; there's no "there" there.
> ---H.C.
No, No, No! I used to think so too, but Gertrude Stein knew Nada about
Oakland. Theres plenty of "there" there- loads in fact. It's a wonderful
city with a beautiful jewel of a lake (Lake Merrit) in the heart of
downtown. Indeed, Oakland is the Bay Area's best kept secret!
Aside from Yoshi's (You *really* need to check out Yoshi's if you love
jazz) for earthshakin' blues there is Eli's Mile High Club! It's in a
bad neighborhood- (the same neighborhood where I teach art at a
community center -thats how I discovered it) so be careful- but don't
let that keep you from going. One night at Eli's when I went to see
Albert Collins, I saw Pinetop Perkins and Sammy Lawhorn sitting in the
audience- great bluesmen always know where to go for good music and
cheap drinks!
Oakland also has the great Paramount theater - a 1930's Art Deco movie
palace which was completely restored a few years ago. On Friday, August
1st they're showing the Marx Brothers "A Night at the Opera" which I'm
going to. For five bucks you get cartoons, old newsreels, and a great
old movie shown on a real "silver screen". You wont find anything more
beautiful (or this thrrrrifty) anywhere in S.F.
Oakland is a very cool town.
Trust me,
Adrienne
Hagbard Celine
On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:55:46 -0700, "Adrienne N. Marshall"
<Adr...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>Oakland is a very cool town.
>Trust me,
>Adrienne
Might as well try to talk me into going on a theme-pub crawl of
Glasgow...
Feh!
---Hagbard
Adrienne N. Marshall
Hagbard sneered:
> Might as well try to talk me into going on a theme-pub crawl of
> Glasgow...
>
> Feh!
Well, if your going to be a snob H.C., what can I say? Its your loss...
BTW, I once had a great time pub crawling in Glasgow with one of my
second cousins and his friends!
I remember something very funny that happened that night though. Some
guy came over to chat me up- until he realized I was an American.
Whereupon he frowned, mumbled something that sounded rude (truthfully, I
couldn't understand him too well) and promptly rejoined his friends.
Then, for for the remainder of the time we were there, he kept scowling
and narrowing his eyes at me like I'd purposely offended him! It was
really pretty amusing, but in a very *weird* kind of way.
Other than that though, everyone I met in Glasgow I thought extremely
nice.
I suspect Glasgow suffers from the same unfounded prejudice as Oakland
does in comparison with S.F.
Why does it have such a bad rep?
Just curious,
Adrienne
Hagbard Celine
On 17 Jul 1997 09:22:34 GMT, sasha...@aol.com (SashaLynne) wrote:
>In article <33CD8D...@pacbell.net>, "Adrienne N. Marshall"
><Adr...@pacbell.net> writes:
>
>>nice.
>>I suspect Glasgow suffers from the same unfounded prejudice as Oakland
>>does in comparison with S.F.
>>Why does it have such a bad rep?
>>
>>Just curious,
>>Adrienne
>>
>>
>
>Because Oakland doesn't have Coit Tower, the Golden Gate, Emperor Norton,
>Lombard Street, Fisherman's Wharf, Cable Cars, Tony Bennet singing about
>it, etc. Oh, dear, I'm making myself homesick, I'd better stop.
>
>Longingly,
>SashaLynne
Ummm... I *think* she meant Glasgow (I hope she did, or I just spent
20 min. posting a reply for no reason); but you forgot:
The S.F. Symphony, the S.F. Opera, the S.F. Ballet, the A.C.T. at the
Curran on Geary, Tommy's Joynt, Golden Gate Park, Carlos Santana,
Fritz Leiber, the Pacific Ocean, and (my favourite) 45 pages of yellow
page listings for the best world-class restaurants on this tired old
globe. Will ye no' come back again?
Hail Eris,
---Hagbard
Adrienne N. Marshall
> >I suspect Glasgow suffers from the same unfounded prejudice as Oakland
> >does in comparison with S.F.
> >Why does it have such a bad rep?
> >
> >Just curious,
> >Adrienne
> >
> >
>
> Because Oakland doesn't have Coit Tower, the Golden Gate, Emperor Norton,
> Lombard Street, Fisherman's Wharf, Cable Cars, Tony Bennet singing about
> it, etc. Oh, dear, I'm making myself homesick, I'd better stop.
>
> Longingly,
> SashaLynne
Sasha,
Left your heart in S.F.? Sounds like you really need to make a visit
home!
I love Emperor Norton stories too! Did you know that there is a drag
queen who goes around town calling herself "The Emperor Norton's Widow"?
I spoke to him/her once at a friends gallery opening- very strange
character- wearing far too much eyeliner! :-\
In my post I was really refering to Glasgow, but...
Regarding Oakland (and what the hell, lets add Berkeley too since they
kind of blend together):
The East Bay is always going to look shabby in comparison to San
Francisco, but those towns have their own charm and are full of
wonderful places and people too. I know, because I've made many friends
on that side of the bay and spend a lot of time over there.
Regards,
Adrienne
ed
The noble B...@Hail.Eris (Hagbard Celine) spake on the day of Thu, 17 Jul
1997 15:47:48 GMT:
>On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 20:11:57 -0700, "Adrienne N. Marshall"
><Adr...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>
>>I suspect Glasgow suffers from the same unfounded prejudice as Oakland
>>does in comparison with S.F.
>>Why does it have such a bad rep?
>>
>>Just curious,
>>Adrienne
>1.) Glasgow is Lowland. Hence more Anglicized. Lowland bad; Highland
>good; got it? Good.
Hang on. Until very recently Glasgow was a very Highland city due to the
influx of Highlanders who came here to work, even Para Handy himself
<grin>
Edinburgh and the Lothians are more Anglicised than Glasgow, even to
having English Place Names amongst the Welsh.
>3.) There is (you may have noticed it) just a wee bit of competition
>between those two cities. Of the twa, Edinburgh's the capital. With
>*two* castles. Likely results: you figure it out.
Glasgow was a Church town as well. Glasgow and Edinburgh have been on
oppositre sides of Politics down the Centuries (at one point it was even
Edinburgh that was the "radical city", though that was long ago), but
guess which City had more of the publishers and other media forms, not
glasgow.
>4.) (Just thought of another reason) There is a perception that all
>the "aggressive young scotsmen" come from that region (see my post
>regarding this in a thread by that name). Here's a true story: a
>Japanese tourist was standing at a Glasgow coach stop with a map in
>one hand and a phrasebook in the other. Approaching a local, he asked
>for directions in broken English. The Glaswegian rounded on the
>fellow and snarled, " Weil, ya didna seem ta hae any trou'le finding
>Pearl Harbour...so go feck yersel'! "
This sounds like a Classic Urban Myth as I've heard it about Liverpool,
London and Belfast as well.
>5.) ;^} (I couldna resist) Fer Chrissakes, lassie: _IT'S GLASGOW!!!_
>M'bwa-ha-ha-ha-hahahaHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! <ducking and covering head>
This from a Robert Anton Wilson fan, talk about Glass houses
ed
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
edh...@equus.meatblock.demon.co.uk | EAT AT | __/ / / / /
http://www.equus.demon.co.uk | JANGIR'S | @____/ o / / / /
For devilbunnies, Diplomacy, C&S, | 5 Mins From | \ __/ / / / / /
Conspiring Rodents and other stuff | This .Sig | \ / / / / /
----------------------------------------------------------------------
remove "meatblock" from address. Spammers got to me
ed
The noble "Adrienne N. Marshall" <Adr...@pacbell.net> spake on the day
of Wed, 16 Jul 1997 20:11:57 -0700:
>Hagbard sneered:
>> Might as well try to talk me into going on a theme-pub crawl of
>> Glasgow...
>>
>> Feh!
>
Meshugginah Illuminatus
>I suspect Glasgow suffers from the same unfounded prejudice as Oakland
>does in comparison with S.F.
>Why does it have such a bad rep?
>
>Just curious,
>Adrienne
Partly due to a certain piece of stereotyping crap called "No Mean
City", a book purporting to be about Glasgow in the Thirties which
painted a picture of Glasgow as an uncommonly violent place.
Secondly because it suited others to paint Glasgow so.
Other British Cities with worse problems never got the same bad rep as
Glasgow
Hagbard Celine
>does in comparison with S.F.
>Why does it have such a bad rep?
>
>Just curious,
>Adrienne
Well, there's (at least) three reasons for that, and they've all been
addressed in one or another thread in this group since I've been
reading/posting in it.
1.) Glasgow is Lowland. Hence more Anglicized. Lowland bad; Highland
good; got it? Good. [Note: *BEFORE* I get flamed from any/all
(mostly south) directions, let me make it _CLEAR_: it's not my view;
it's just part one of an answer to her question. There's a very real
Highland snobbery that's quite the reverse of how it used (pre-1785)
to be. Yes, Rabbie Burns was Lowland (he may well have been a
Campbell to boot). I love and respect you murdering, pirating southern
flatlanders as much as I do the murdering, pirating Isle dwellers and
Highlanders, so just _get_away_ from_that_keyboard_...] That's better.
2.) Glasgow is a younger city. Hence it is an *industrial* city.
Hence more modern, dirtier, less quaint. They had a _real_ problem
with this not so long ago (there was a major clean-up / refurbishing /
image-modification program begun in the `70's). I haven't been there
(well, I've driven through it enroute to Edinburgh from the Islands)
for 30 years; but I prefer the madness of Edinburgh's congested
cobblestone lanes to the more modern glass, steel, and tarmac of
Glasgow.
3.) There is (you may have noticed it) just a wee bit of competition
between those two cities. Of the twa, Edinburgh's the capital. With
*two* castles. Likely results: you figure it out.
4.) (Just thought of another reason) There is a perception that all
the "aggressive young scotsmen" come from that region (see my post
regarding this in a thread by that name). Here's a true story: a
Japanese tourist was standing at a Glasgow coach stop with a map in
one hand and a phrasebook in the other. Approaching a local, he asked
for directions in broken English. The Glaswegian rounded on the
fellow and snarled, " Weil, ya didna seem ta hae any trou'le finding
Pearl Harbour...so go feck yersel'! " This incident occurred in the
1980's and is committed to print in a book titled (I believe) "The_
Worst_of_Scotland," under the category "Worst Tourist Treatment."
Perhaps the leering incoherent chappie at the pub was one of his like.
5.) ;^} (I couldna resist) Fer Chrissakes, lassie: _IT'S GLASGOW!!!_
M'bwa-ha-ha-ha-hahahaHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! <ducking and covering head>
Hail Eris,
---Hagbard Celine
Derek Hodge
In article <33cf355b...@news.pacbell.net>, Hagbard Celine
<B...@Hail.Eris> writes
>4.) (Just thought of another reason) There is a perception that all
>the "aggressive young scotsmen" come from that region (see my post
>regarding this in a thread by that name). Here's a true story: a
>Japanese tourist was standing at a Glasgow coach stop with a map in
>one hand and a phrasebook in the other. Approaching a local, he asked
>for directions in broken English. The Glaswegian rounded on the
>fellow and snarled, " Weil, ya didna seem ta hae any trou'le finding
>Pearl Harbour...so go feck yersel'! " This incident occurred in the
>1980's and is committed to print in a book titled (I believe) "The_
>Worst_of_Scotland," under the category "Worst Tourist Treatment."
>Perhaps the leering incoherent chappie at the pub was one of his like.
German tourist in a Glasgow supermarket sees local woman slapping her
child. He decides to remonstrate, goes over to her and says "In Germany
we do not hit our children".
She turns round and says "Aye, well in Maryhill we dinnae gas our Jews".
Derek Hodge der...@post.almac.co.uk
Hagbard Celine
>The noble B...@Hail.Eris (Hagbard Celine) spake on the day of Thu, 17 Jul
>1997 15:47:48 GMT:
>
>>On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 20:11:57 -0700, "Adrienne N. Marshall"
>><Adr...@pacbell.net> wrote:
|
Hmmm, ed (I mean, Ed): see Adrienne's rebuke and my subsequent
followup. Still, it's nice to have gotten one before those hit your
mailserver...
|
>>>
>>>I suspect Glasgow suffers from the same unfounded prejudice as Oakland
>>>does in comparison with S.F.
>>>Why does it have such a bad rep?
>>>
>>>Just curious,
>>>Adrienne
>
>>1.) Glasgow is Lowland. Hence more Anglicized. Lowland bad; Highland
>>good; got it? Good.
>
>Hang on. Until very recently Glasgow was a very Highland city due to the
>influx of Highlanders who came here to work, even Para Handy himself
><grin>
>
*Geographically*. Culturally, the Highland Line both moved south as
far as London and disappeared entirely about 150 years ago. By this
I mean that the *real* Highland culture was broken with the decay of
the original clan system (commencing, in my view, a great deal earlier
than Culloden). The last nail was driven by the Clearances. At the
same time, the great Highland Revival brought the _trappings_ of
Highland life (and, to be charitable, some of its elements) to Lowland
cities [see response immediately below] and into England itself.
>
>Edinburgh and the Lothians are more Anglicised than Glasgow, even to
>having English Place Names amongst the Welsh.
>
Well, you'll notice that I didn't say anything about Edinburgh being a
Highland city. The fact that it's virtually at the same longitude as
Glasgow was omitted in the hopes that some clever chap (damn ye)
wouldn't bring it up. It's not my obligation, after all, to make the
points of my opponents in an argument, is it now? No matter,
Edinburgh has adopted more of the Highland culture than Glasgow;
that's why you don't need a "theme pub" there (yes, I read those posts
too). No doubt it's for tourist reasons, but also because it's the
capital, and hence home to people from every part of Scotland, who
have business to conduct there.
>
>>3.) There is (you may have noticed it) just a wee bit of competition
>>between those two cities. Of the twa, Edinburgh's the capital. With
>>*two* castles. Likely results: you figure it out.
>
I notice that you didn't have any problems with #2, to wit: modern
industry, traffic, pollution, trash, crime, etc.
>
>Glasgow was a Church town as well. Glasgow and Edinburgh have been on
>oppositre sides of Politics down the Centuries (at one point it was even
>Edinburgh that was the "radical city", though that was long ago), but
>guess which City had more of the publishers and other media forms, not
>glasgow.
>
Thanks for pointing that out. I'd quite forgotten (to my shame as a
lapsed Catholic) that Edinburgh has always been home to a larger
Catholic population (again, most of the "upper class" were Catholic,
and it *is* the capital) than Glasgow, which is in the heart of
Covenanter territory. As for "radicals:" I'm one...
>
>>4.) (Just thought of another reason) There is a perception that all
>>the "aggressive young scotsmen" come from that region (see my post
>>regarding this in a thread by that name). Here's a true story: a
>>Japanese tourist was standing at a Glasgow coach stop with a map in
>>one hand and a phrasebook in the other. Approaching a local, he asked
>>for directions in broken English. The Glaswegian rounded on the
>>fellow and snarled, " Weil, ya didna seem ta hae any trou'le finding
>>Pearl Harbour...so go feck yersel'! "
>
>This sounds like a Classic Urban Myth as I've heard it about Liverpool,
>London and Belfast as well.
>
Interesting. I hadn't; I read it in a book (The_Worst_of_Scotland [?]
--- companion piece to [by the same authors] The_Best_of_Scotland).
Maybe the story's true, having happened *someplace*, and has since
been attributed to other cities as well.
>
>>5.) ;^} (I couldna resist) Fer Chrissakes, lassie: _IT'S GLASGOW!!!_
>>M'bwa-ha-ha-ha-hahahaHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! <ducking and covering head>
>
>This from a Robert Anton Wilson fan, talk about Glass houses
>
I *said* that I couldn't resist. And lest anyone get the wrong
impression, there is nothing whatsoever wrong with the literary
talents of R. A. Wilson. I part company with him on his metaphysical
beliefs, but he is a fine author, "Illuminatus" being a masterwork.
You want to talk about glass houses, go figure a guy who starts his
name with an l.c. char and believes that daemonic *rabbits* are out to
conquer mankind. <snicker/fluff>
>
>ed
>--
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>edh...@equus.meatblock.demon.co.uk | EAT AT | __/ / / / /
>http://www.equus.demon.co.uk | JANGIR'S | @____/ o / / / /
>For devilbunnies, Diplomacy, C&S, | 5 Mins From | \ __/ / / / / /
>Conspiring Rodents and other stuff | This .Sig | \ / / / / /
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>remove "meatblock" from address. Spammers got to me
Hail Eris (or Something),
---Hagbard
Adrienne N. Marshall
H.C. attempted to read me the riot act:
> Well, now you've done it. In this writer's humble opinion, you've
> crossed the line between "socially aware" into "politically correct."
> (Quite apart from that horrifying moment where you seemed to be
> defending the right of that Gawdawful beast Los Angeles to exist.)
No, now you've done it H.C. You just had to throw that rotten apple of
discord into the feast didn't you? Admit that you did. Incorrigible man!
(BTW If you re-read my post you will please note that I never once
claimed that L.A. was a place I held any affection for. Only that I
didn't understand the *rivalry* between S.F./L.A. The truth is, I
believe San Francisco has no need to stoop to such lowly behavior. None
whatsoever.
However, I do indeed think Los Angeles has a right to exist... and, that
I have an equal right to despise nearly Everything about it!)
> A stern talking-to is in order.
:-( :-| :-)
> Adrienne, I agree with about 95% of what you write in this group
> (whether waxing or waning philosophical). Your defence of the
> working classes against the rapacious avarice of the moneyed
> elite is nothing short of brilliant and inspired. I frequently avoid
> posting a response to some of these buggers because you've
> already done it in eloquent and impassioned style.
Thank you H.C.!!! That's very kind of you to say. Still, I can't and
won't take all the credit. Arguing and debating about everything
(especially social issues and politics)- preferably with graciousness,
hopefully with a minimum of shouting- is a prerequisite to survival in
my family. We were all taught early, in fact, one of my earliest
childhood memories is when I was about 4-5 years old and having to
relate to my Grandfather the relative merits of having candy over an
orange. And though I clearly recall that I walked away with the orange,
it is interesting that he forced me to try to sway his opinion.
> But now you've gone too far.
:-)
> There's good things, and there's bad things...and
> there's things that are just ... mediocre. People judge that elusive
> and indefinable characteristic of "quality" on a subjective scale all
> their own (ever read "Zen_and_the_Art_of_Motorcycle_Maintenance?").
That's very true. And when I was in Glasgow, I saw many things I
*really* liked- not good, bad or mediocre things, but excellent things.
(and no I've never read that book, who wrote it?)
> When a consensus is reached through some ineluctable societal
> gestalt, such decisions achieve a broad cultural base: Glasgow bad,
> Edinburgh good; L.A. bad, S.F. good; etc.
As you may have guessed, I must now ask: How and why did this "consensus
of societal gestalt" come about? Just how "ineluctable" is it really? It
just so happens H. C., that I would rather judge many things for myself
without bothering to gather everyone elses opinions first, nor am I
afraid to be the lone voice of disagreement.
But Thoreau said it better:
"I would rather sit on a pumpkin and have it all to myself, then be
crowded on a velvet cushion." -"Walden"
> Now, it is a fact that
> these preferences are *not* based on "one person, one vote."
> (small snip) But, as an eclectic ideal, one *can* draw
> reasonable inferences from the physical or
> historical reality of these places which are based in fact and which,
> when boiled down to the popular idiom, yield just such cultural dogma
> as stated above.
Yes, *one or many* can draw these inferences and follow the carefully
prepared guide book that ensures their safety and be like all the other
dazed and confused tourists -or- one can wander blissfully around and
let life happen spontaneously. I prefer the latter option and so, will
either enjoy or suffer the consequences of that decision, thank you very
much!
> I have made it an avocation of mine (both here and
> in real life) to seek out those apologists and revisionists who
> attempt to gloss over the lack of "quality" in a place, thing, action,
> organization, or other pet favourite of theirs with a patina of smarmy
> aphorisms, empty rhetoric, plausible deniability, or outright lies,
> and tweak them _severely_.
Then, I can not be tweaked - for I did *not* gloss over, use smarmy
aphorisms or empty rhetoric or outright lie about anything. I admitted
that Edinburgh was more beautiful, but that in *my opinion* Glasgow also
has its own brand of charm - and it does. You don't have to agree, we'll
just note this as one of the 5% of things we differ on. Okay? :-)
> It may not be graceful, it may not be
> "politically correct," but in a free society I reserve the right to
> stand up and say: "Single malts are *BETTER* than blends;"
> "Cotton is *BETTER* than polyester;" "North is *BETTER* than
> south;" "San Francisco is *BETTER* than Los Angeles;"
> "Socialism is *BETTER* than capitalist `democracy';" and, "If
> it's not Scottish, it's *CRAP*!" These things, while they can be
> picked apart, and argued, and debated seriously in each and every
> special case, are broadly T!R!U!E!
No need to SHOUT, H. C.! I can hear you.
You'll get little argument from me here. I agree with all of these
things you list except for the "crap comment" which I feel I must pick
slightly apart.
There's lots of things that aren't Scottish that are really very good.
Such things as Mexican pottery or Thai green curry chicken or handsewn
Italian leather goods (to name only three) are all excellent things that
are not Scottish.
> Adrienne, you must take a
> deep breath, bite the bullet (or, in the case of a liberal socialist
> who is _unwilling_ to use bullets [unlike myself], the pencil) and
> leave_well_alone!
I can't and won't. If I ever have the time, I'll go back to Glasgow
again, though I'd most likely only spend another three days so I'd have
more time to wander the closes, courtyards and streets of Edinburgh.
> I fear you've gone and ruined my perfectly good
> inflammatory rant (cleverly disguised as it was as a sober discussion
> of regional history) on Glasgow by picking it apart in it's every
> detail. Now, no hordes of wee angry Glaswegians will hurry to their
> keyboards to defend the sacred honour of their slighted abode.
> Beca-a-u-se _Adrien-n-e-'s_ done it *fo-o-o-r* them (it's so hard to
> put a good "Nya-a-a-a-ah"-like tone into a printed sentence). Damn.
>
> Hoping You Don't Take This Too Seriously,
> ---Hagbard Celine
What? Am I to be amused when you fling insults like "politically
correct" and "apologist" in my face? Or admire your wish to make
Glaswegians defend the sacred honor of their home?
No sir. A proper apology and/or a bottle of Lagavulin might soothe my
pique though- if offered in a gracious manner, of course.
Waiting patiently,
as always,
Adrienne (the insomniac artist)
Bob Scott
Hagbard Celine <B...@Hail.Eris> writes
either city? I know you're trolling but please. Theme pubs? Edinburgh?
they even advertise on the radio... (and, sob, last time I was through,
I discovered that the beloved Preservation Hall was now a Finnegans Wake
- That drinking session in Edinburgh turned out to be a pint in
Greyfriars Bobby, a can of export on the train then the next 6 hours in
- the Horseshoe, the State, the Variety, the Arlington, the Halt, the
Doublet & Hubbards.) And if Edinburgh has adopted more of the highland
culture than Glasgow why is it perceived (certainly in the Central belt)
as the most anglicised of scottish cities?
>capital, and hence home to people from every part of Scotland, who
>have business to conduct there.
>
>>
>>>3.) There is (you may have noticed it) just a wee bit of competition
>>>between those two cities. Of the twa, Edinburgh's the capital. With
>>>*two* castles.
>>
>I notice that you didn't have any problems with #2, to wit: modern
>industry, traffic, pollution, trash, crime, etc.
much worse in the eastern city.
>>
>>Glasgow was a Church town as well. Glasgow and Edinburgh have been on
>>oppositre sides of Politics down the Centuries (at one point it was even
>>Edinburgh that was the "radical city", though that was long ago), but
>>guess which City had more of the publishers and other media forms, not
>>glasgow.
>>
>Thanks for pointing that out. I'd quite forgotten (to my shame as a
>lapsed Catholic) that Edinburgh has always been home to a larger
>Catholic population (again, most of the "upper class" were Catholic,
>and it *is* the capital) than Glasgow, which is in the heart of
>Covenanter territory. As for "radicals:" I'm one...
>
nothing else the influx of irish catholics in the 20's & 30's would've
shifted the balance.
Oh, and one last thing...
You'll have had you tea?
--
Bob Scott
Charles Mcgregor
In message <33d2181f...@news.pacbell.net>
B...@Hail.Eris (Hagbard Celine) writes:
> On Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:01:55 GMT, edh...@equus.meatblock.demon.co.uk
> (ed) wrote:
> >The noble B...@Hail.Eris (Hagbard Celine) spake on the day of Thu, 17 Jul
> >1997 15:47:48 GMT:
> >
> >>On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 20:11:57 -0700, "Adrienne N. Marshall"
> >><Adr...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> |
> Hmmm, ed (I mean, Ed): see Adrienne's rebuke and my subsequent
> followup. Still, it's nice to have gotten one before those hit your
> mailserver...
> |
> >>>
> >>>I suspect Glasgow suffers from the same unfounded prejudice as Oakland
> >>>does in comparison with S.F.
> >>>Why does it have such a bad rep?
> >>>
> >>>Just curious,
> >>>Adrienne
> >
> >>1.) Glasgow is Lowland. Hence more Anglicized. Lowland bad; Highland
> >>good; got it? Good.
> >
> >Hang on. Until very recently Glasgow was a very Highland city due to the
> >influx of Highlanders who came here to work, even Para Handy himself
> ><grin>
> >
> *Geographically*. Culturally, the Highland Line both moved south as
> far as London and disappeared entirely about 150 years ago. By this
> I mean that the *real* Highland culture was broken with the decay of
Sorry, but if there is anything that can be termed 'the real' highland
social structure (and from the context within which you write I think you mean
social structure rather than culture) then it must be the original Celtic
social structure which was a damn sight more democratic than the
pseudo-feudalism that was 'the clan system'. This was nothing more
than a locally tailored copy of Norman fuedalism and did not exist
prior to the Norman conquest.
> the original clan system (commencing, in my view, a great deal earlier
> than Culloden). The last nail was driven by the Clearances. At the
> same time, the great Highland Revival brought the _trappings_ of
> Highland life (and, to be charitable, some of its elements) to Lowland
> cities [see response immediately below] and into England itself.
> >
> >Edinburgh and the Lothians are more Anglicised than Glasgow, even to
> >having English Place Names amongst the Welsh.
Norman infiltration into Highland society had more success at establishing
Norman-English concepts of feudalism and priviledge than they did in the
Lowlands.
> >
> Well, you'll notice that I didn't say anything about Edinburgh being a
> Highland city. The fact that it's virtually at the same longitude as
> Glasgow was omitted in the hopes that some clever chap (damn ye)
> wouldn't bring it up. It's not my obligation, after all, to make the
> points of my opponents in an argument, is it now? No matter,
> Edinburgh has adopted more of the Highland culture than Glasgow;
> that's why you don't need a "theme pub" there (yes, I read those posts
It was a 'Scottish' theme pub was it not?
Edinburgh has adopted less English culture I would say. Although there
is certainly a much higher percentage of the population of English
ancestry in Edinburgh.
> too). No doubt it's for tourist reasons, but also because it's the
> capital, and hence home to people from every part of Scotland, who
> have business to conduct there.
> >
I don't think tourism comes into it but yes there is bound to have been a
steady stream from all over Scotland into Edinburgh over the centuries.
regards
chic
>
ed
B...@Hail.Eris (Hagbard Celine) spake on the day of Fri, 18 Jul 1997
07:16:00 GMT:
<snip>
>Hmmm, ed (I mean, Ed):
nope, it's ed, and you'll see why later, or do I have to get petty
Haggard Sealife <petty, ain't it>
<snip>
>>Edinburgh and the Lothians are more Anglicised than Glasgow, even to
>>having English Place Names amongst the Welsh.
>>
>Well, you'll notice that I didn't say anything about Edinburgh being a
>Highland city. The fact that it's virtually at the same longitude as
>Glasgow was omitted in the hopes that some clever chap (damn ye)
>wouldn't bring it up. It's not my obligation, after all, to make the
>points of my opponents in an argument, is it now? No matter,
>Edinburgh has adopted more of the Highland culture than Glasgow;
>that's why you don't need a "theme pub" there (yes, I read those posts
>too).
Not thoroughly, or you'd have seen my post that it's not a theme pub. In
fact it's a pub that was used by the Highland community in that part of
Partick, slothe landlord had the scenes of Highland life stained glass
windows in.
It was the benighted passers by who took it for a theme pub.
>>>3.) There is (you may have noticed it) just a wee bit of competition
>>>between those two cities. Of the twa, Edinburgh's the capital. With
>>>*two* castles. Likely results: you figure it out.
>>
>I notice that you didn't have any problems with #2, to wit: modern
>industry, traffic, pollution, trash, crime, etc.
What, like glasgow is a civilised place to operate a car with easier
access and travel than Edinburgh. You try getting effectively from one
side of Edinburgh without running into the bottlneck descending from
Princes St.
Princes St is also one of the more polluted thoroughfares in the UK,
although I admit the bottom of Hope St and under the Hielanman's
Umbrella are fairly awful.
Crime. Edinburgh has it's own sets of problems in that regard, like that
lassie raped yards away from Princes St and various crowded locales.
no city is completely safe. Was it ever ?
>Thanks for pointing that out. I'd quite forgotten (to my shame as a
>lapsed Catholic) that Edinburgh has always been home to a larger
>Catholic population (again, most of the "upper class" were Catholic,
>and it *is* the capital) than Glasgow, which is in the heart of
>Covenanter territory. As for "radicals:" I'm one...
Me, I'd favour Stirling for capital as nearer to the centre of
Scotland's transport links.
There's a fair few catholics in Glasgow too you know.
>>This sounds like a Classic Urban Myth as I've heard it about Liverpool,
>>London and Belfast as well.
>>
>Interesting. I hadn't; I read it in a book (The_Worst_of_Scotland [?]
>--- companion piece to [by the same authors] The_Best_of_Scotland).
>Maybe the story's true, having happened *someplace*, and has since
>been attributed to other cities as well.
Maybe it was just someone's comedy routine. I might have heard it about
Edinburgh if the idea of anyone in Edinburgh offering to help a stranger
is ridiculous. <oops, couldn't resist that, sorry>
>>This from a Robert Anton Wilson fan, talk about Glass houses
>>
>I *said* that I couldn't resist. And lest anyone get the wrong
>impression, there is nothing whatsoever wrong with the literary
>talents of R. A. Wilson. I part company with him on his metaphysical
>beliefs, but he is a fine author, "Illuminatus" being a masterwork.
>You want to talk about glass houses, go figure a guy who starts his
>name with an l.c. char
Yeah ? Well if you'd bothered to research it, you'd have seen that ed is
as much of a pseudonym as Hagbard Celine, and properly it has a lower
char, it's all on the website.
>and believes that daemonic *rabbits* are out to
>conquer mankind. <snicker/fluff>
>>
Can you prove they're not ?
(I subscribe to a conspiracy shared-reality Newsgroup and "Hagbard
Celine" !!! criticises me.
Hagbard Celine
On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:10:22 +0100, Charles Mcgregor
<chi...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Sorry, but if there is anything that can be termed 'the real' highland
>social structure (and from the context within which you write I think you mean
>social structure rather than culture)
I did indeed; thank you. However, for the purposes of my response,
they are both so closely linked and entertwined (the one flowing from
the other), that I'll leave it stand without correction. When the
social-structure of a people is changed, their culture is changed
also. Reflect upon the differences between modern ceilidhs, Highland
attire, art and artifice, familial existence, etc. ... and those of
several centuries ago. The _climate_ hasn't changed; the _geography_
hasn't changed; what has changed is the structure of society, and with
it, its culture.
> then it must be the original Celtic
>social structure which was a damn sight more democratic than the
>pseudo-feudalism that was 'the clan system'. This was nothing more
>than a locally tailored copy of Norman fuedalism and did not exist
>prior to the Norman conquest.
Tell that to the Siol Alpin. Or, for that matter, to the Cattenachs,
whose lineage is traceable to within two generations of the saint,
himself. Or to the MacDuffs of Fife, who were mormaors centuries
before Ceanmore. I could go on. By "clan-system," I mean the
original idea of an extended family who were beholden to a chief
who, in his turn, regarded them as his *family*, not his serfs. In
the "pseudo-feudal system" you refer to, heirs could not be passed
over for a chiefship due to unfitness. I refer to the earlier system
where they could. I believe we may just be speaking of the same thing
here, without realizing it.
>Norman infiltration into Highland society had more success at establishing
>Norman-English concepts of feudalism and priviledge than they did in the
>Lowlands.
I reject this. Perhaps it's because the contrast was so much more
marked that it seems that way. No one can tell me that the Campbells
of Strathclyde, the Douglasses (or the Bruces, for that matter) were
less influenced by Norman customs than the MacPhersons, MacDonalds, or
(for that matter) the MacGregors were.
>Edinburgh has adopted less English culture I would say.
Thank you.
>Although there is certainly a much higher percentage of the
>population of English ancestry in Edinburgh.
With independence, that will lessen over time (less reason for "new
blood" to travel up from England.
Unless they just canna stand it There anymore. ;^}
>I don't think tourism comes into it but yes there is bound to have been a
>steady stream from all over Scotland into Edinburgh over the centuries.
I meant that some of the Highland culture evident in Edinburgh is
there to cater to the tourist industry. Re the influx of Highlanders
into the capital for business / government duties: I meant just that.
They've more reason to live in Edinburgh than Glasgow. And, given the
choice of the two...
>regards
>chic
Regards Yourself, Chic (I mean, "chic"); and Hail Eris,
---Hagbard
Hagbard Celine
On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:27:18 +0100, Bob Scott <B...@landb5.demon.co.uk>
wrote:
> <major snippage of re-quoted previous messages>
>Do what? Hagbard, when was the last time you did any serious drinking in
>either city?
Edinburgh, about 7 years; Glasgow, I never touch the stuff.
>I know you're trolling but please. Theme pubs? Edinburgh?
>they even advertise on the radio... (and, sob, last time I was through,
>I discovered that the beloved Preservation Hall was now a Finnegans Wake
On Victoria St.? That's misfortunate.
>- That drinking session in Edinburgh turned out to be a pint in
>Greyfriars Bobby, a can of export on the train then the next 6 hours in
>- the Horseshoe, the State, the Variety, the Arlington, the Halt, the
>Doublet & Hubbards.)
What about the Royal Oak?
>And if Edinburgh has adopted more of the highland culture than
>Glasgow why is it perceived (certainly in the Central belt) as the
>most anglicised of scottish cities?
Hmmm, see Chic (er, I mean "chic") Mcgregor's post downthread.
>Hmm, and Glasgows so narrow & parochial.
Broad and worldly isn't necessarily *better*, eh? For the broadest,
most worldy experience in the UK, go to London...
So how many castles do the weegies have?
I've no idea. Do tell. It was only included as part of a response to
a question regarding *popularity* and *antiquity*. In both of which
categories Edinburgh clearly leads.
>dunno about industry & crime but the traffic (& associated pollution) is
>much worse in the eastern city.
Well, traffic (broadly) I'll grant you (due to Edinburgh's antiquity);
*although* one can certainly sit and wait (gazing at some of Glasgow's
unloveliest architecture) in that city too, as I have personally
experienced. I maintain that crime and the by-products of modern
industry are worse in Glasgow.
>Is this still the case? Anyone got figures? I'd've thought that if
>nothing else the influx of irish catholics in the 20's & 30's would've
>shifted the balance.
Don't know if it is or not; that wasn't the point of my response. I
was replying to Ed's (er, I mean "ed's") observation regarding
political (sectarian) differences between the two cities.
>Oh, and one last thing...
>
>You'll have had you tea?
I never touch the stuff (coffee, Jolt, or Irn-Bru for me); but I have
had my "tea"... ;^}
Hail Edinburgh,
---Hagbard
Barney Macfarlane
In article <33d11c53...@news.pacbell.net>, Hagbard Celine writes
>Hail Edinburgh,
> ---Hagbard
>
Sunshine Glasgow.
--
Barney Macfarlane
Hagbard Celine
On Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:18:45 -0700, Adrienne N. Marshall
<Adr...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>(Mona Lisa's-ever eat there? Fabulous food!)>
I'll check it out. I'm a fool for the pasta.
>BTW, H.C. didn't you say you lived very close to the ocean? Last night I
>went to the beach before I went home and there were people burning huge
>bonfires down there - it was great - but I didn't know you could do that
>without being hassled by the cops. It was really beautiful.
It hasn't been so bad for revelers since the new admin went in. One
sees many curious things at Ocean Beach. There's a Wiccan coven which
conducts rites out at Sutro Baths (in long, flowing red-gauze robes)
to propitiate (Mannanan? Lludd? Not sure). And, of course, the
hang-gliders, surfers, and kite-enthusiasts. I have yet to be
harangued for playing the `pipes out late on the strand. And, in
November, we have the most *glorious* sunsets...
Hail Eris,
---Hagbard
ed
The noble Rusty Celt <rus...@exis.net> spake on the day of Sat, 19 Jul
1997 08:00:31 -0700:
>> (I subscribe to a conspiracy shared-reality Newsgroup and "Hagbard
>> Celine" !!! criticises me.
>
>Don't worry, ed! I'm most indubitably on your side here. Why, everyone
>should know that the bunnies are not the conquerer worms in this
>instance. It's those *Firkin'* Fudds!!!
Hang oan a cotton-pickin minute here. Here's me, defending Scotland from
vile rabbit-shaped demons who eat toes and turn the rest of our body
pairts intae SPAM(tm), and you're bluidy siding with them !!!
*SYMP*
I dinna ken aboot thae firkin Pubs, seem pairt o the Heritage Industry,
which is total in thrall tae the Buns.
> Rabbit hair always does that when it gets up my nose)
*SYMP*
>Rusty - Back knitting and getting *Tipsy with the Laird*
>(I really must stop using angora fur in these tartan matched under-kilt
>cosies - Aaaaachoooooo!)
*SYMP*
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
edh...@equus.demon.meatblock.co.uk | EAT AT | __/ / / / /
ed
The noble B...@Hail.Eris (Hagbard Celine) spake on the day of Sat, 19 Jul
1997 02:36:28 GMT:
>>- That drinking session in Edinburgh turned out to be a pint in
>>Greyfriars Bobby, a can of export on the train then the next 6 hours in
>>- the Horseshoe, the State, the Variety, the Arlington, the Halt, the
>>Doublet & Hubbards.)
>
>What about the Royal Oak?
Or in Ediburgh also Milnes Bar which is of the same Stable as Hubbards
or my fave, The Rose St. Brewery. Oops, sory, I forgot I was cast in the
die of vile anti-Edinburgh type.
>Well, traffic (broadly) I'll grant you (due to Edinburgh's antiquity);
>*although* one can certainly sit and wait (gazing at some of Glasgow's
>unloveliest architecture)
One might also wait staring at some of Glasgows lovely Georgian and
Victorian Architecture.
Edinburgh has it's share of vile architectural mistakes too, New St.
Andrews House for a start off.
>>Is this still the case? Anyone got figures? I'd've thought that if
>>nothing else the influx of irish catholics in the 20's & 30's would've
>>shifted the balance.
>
>Don't know if it is or not; that wasn't the point of my response. I
>was replying to Ed's (er, I mean "ed's") observation regarding
>political (sectarian) differences between the two cities.
Hang on ! I was referring to political differences, rather than
sectarian ones, though granted after the Reformation things got blurry.
>>You'll have had you tea?
>
>I never touch the stuff (coffee, Jolt, or Irn-Bru for me); but I have
>had my "tea"... ;^}
>
>Hail Edinburgh,
And you're welcome to the Edinbourgoisie
ed
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
edh...@equus.demon.meatblock.co.uk | EAT AT | __/ / / / /
Adrienne N. Marshall
H.C. wrote:
> It hasn't been so bad for revelers since the new admin went in. One
> sees many curious things at Ocean Beach. There's a Wiccan coven which
> conducts rites out at Sutro Baths (in long, flowing red-gauze robes)
> to propitiate (Mannanan? Lludd? Not sure).
ruins.
Mannanan- he was the god that held the Treasures of the Sea in a bag
made of crane skin. (Didn't the Fenians also carry crane skin bags? I
wonder if there is any correlation or significance in that...)
I've never heard of LLudd though. Was he some kind of Welsh or English
hero of the sea?
(snip)
> I have yet to be
> harangued for playing the `pipes out late on the strand.
asked you to desist immediately!
Question: Are you always a lone piper, or do you play with a band? I'm
curious because I know a few people who play in bands locally.
> And, in
> November, we have the most *glorious* sunsets...
>
> Hail Eris,
> ---Hagbard
Yes, and the ocean always looks more silvery at that time year for some
reason.
Hail,
Adrienne
Hagbard Celine
On Sun, 20 Jul 1997 17:03:03 GMT, edh...@equus.demon.meatblock.co.uk
(ed) wrote:
>
>Oops, sory, I forgot I was cast in the die of vile anti-Edinburgh type.
You can have it any way you want it. This is not the first thread on
this subject and it's doubtless not the last. If there wasn't any
fire, there'd be no smoke.
>One might also wait staring at some of Glasgows lovely Georgian and
>Victorian Architecture.
But nothing prior to the 15th century. The only thing I remember from
my last drive through (Greenock ---> Edinburgh) was a cemetary and
crematorium surrounded by chip shops and petrol stations.
>Edinburgh has it's share of vile architectural mistakes too, New St.
>Andrews House for a start off.
More "progress," eh? I understand the new university buildings lack
charm as well.
>Hang on ! I was referring to political differences, rather than
>sectarian ones, though granted after the Reformation things got blurry.
It's that I was referring to.
>And you're welcome to the Edinbourgoisie
*Cute.* But then, what should I expect from a Devilbunny?
Next week: Aberdeen vs. Inverness. ;^}
Hail Eris,
---Hagbard
Hagbard Celine
On Sun, 20 Jul 1997 19:37:23 +0100, Charles Mcgregor
<chi...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Gaelic answer = freagairt
> answerable = freagarrach
>
> question = ceist
>
>So I think we are in the realms of coincidence here, but you never know.
>
Yeah. I guess so. I had thought maybe Frage=Fragarach as Gaul=Gael.
Thanks, chic.
Hail Eris,
---H.C.
Martha S. Jones
On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Hagbard Celine wrote about Glasgow's bad reputation
the following, as well as much else:
>
> 1.) Glasgow is Lowland. Hence more Anglicized. Lowland bad; Highland
> (mostly south) directions, let me make it _CLEAR_: it's not my view;
> it's just part one of an answer to her question. There's a very real
> Highland snobbery that's quite the reverse of how it used (pre-1785)
One of the American guidebooks to Scotland states as a matter of fact
that _Glasgow_ is culturally a _Highland_ city and _Edinburgh_ is the
Lowland one. (The book places the H v. L line running northeast from just
south of Glasgow to somewhere northwest of Aberdeen.) Sorry my copy is not at
hand to identify the author for credit, debit, or public pillory.
Speaking as an ignorant American tourist, I was quite disappointed in the
amount of Brigadoonery and associated tourist malarkey I observed in
Edinburgh, particularly parts of the Royal Mile. If Edinburgh had been
my first or only experience of Scotland, I would have a very misleading
impression. BTW I live in a tourism-oriented city -- San Antonio, Texas,
population 1.1 million residents and _lots_ of tourists -- so I have some
knowledge of what tourism can do to a city. IMHO San Antonio offers
visitors a much more authentic view of its culture than Edinburgh does.
Of course SA is much younger, founded 1691 (old by US standards!); maybe
after a few more centuries we'll be just as bad.
Just my tuppence's worth.
Rusty Celt
ed wrote:
> Hang oan a cotton-pickin minute here. Here's me, defending Scotland from
> vile rabbit-shaped demons who eat toes and turn the rest of our body
> pairts intae SPAM(tm), and you're bluidy siding with them !!!
Ach! How you can say this when I was just trying to wind you up! I
need more angora in order to finish this jumper I'm working on. (Holds
up VERY sharp knitting pins) You see? (Achoo!)
> *SYMP*
Hrrmmmph! Now, was THAT necessary? (Thump thump thump)
> I dinna ken aboot thae firkin Pubs, seem pairt o the Heritage Industry,
> which is total in thrall tae the Buns.
HOW can YOU BLAME ALLLLLLLLL those FOUL places on the BUNS?!!! They
will not go near them as far as I'm aware. (mumble mumble...) Have you
ever tried their home brew? It'll burn the paws off anyone - Bun or
Fudd! <sobbing and keening> It's all sooooooo sad and SOON there will
be one on YOUR corner! <more shivery-shedding> HEY! Perhaps you should
consider using that Firkin Ale if you ever run low of Irn-Bru? I also
know where you can get hold of more Moxi, but you have to be nicer to
me...
> *SYMP*
<Thump...thump...thump>
There goes the Moxi...
Look! If it helps any, over the weekend, The Wallace (my cat) dispposed
of a American grey squirrel before he could immigrate...
> *SYMP*
THAT Does it!!! ALRIGHT, SMARTY BREEKS! YOU tell ME just HOW a
HEDGEHOG can REACH the bar, to get to his pint, in the FIRST place!
Besides, as long as my adopted son's relatives under Balmacara Rock, as
well as the rest of the haggis pods up north, are not affected, I don't
care!!!
<RRRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrraspberries>
Rusty - trying to remain neutral
(MAN! Touch Not the Hedgehog Bot a Glove!)
Charles Mcgregor
Charles Mcgregor
In message <33D367C1...@tetraworld.com>
Craig McDowall <mcd...@tetraworld.com> writes:
> Charles Mcgregor wrote:
> > One only has to go to a Scotland football game *in Glasgow* and notice
> > how
> > few West coast accents are present. Most Glaswegians are only
> > interested
> > in one of the two football teams.
> >
> IMHO, this is a fairly recent phenomenon, certainly in the years BS
> (before Souness), a large number of the Tartan Army were old firm
> supporters. I would agree that Rangers fans seem to have deserted the
> national team in recent years, but my theory on this stems from the
> seemingly antagonistic atmosphere that persisted between the SFA and
> specifically Souness and that the National team were somehow seen as the
> SFA's team. I don't think that the Richard Gough saga has helped
> matters either. Anyway the point I'm trying to make is that I think
> this has more to do with footballing reasons than
> geographical/national/political reasons.
I do hope so.
regards
chic
Craig McDowall
Adrienne N. Marshall
H.C. wrote:
(Fascinating mythic info snipped)
> Sorry you asked, yet?
No, not at all. Actually, Im very interested in mythology (and
anthropology)- many artists are, because myths are loaded with
symbolism.
It continually amazes me how many cultures share similar mythical
"types" and counterparts: heros, heroines, magicians, gods, spiritual
guides, divine beings and monsters. Right down to the present day we
humans seem to have a real need for tales of spiritual journey and
adventure.
> >You must be pretty good then- if you weren't, they probably would have
> >asked you to desist immediately!
>
> Who, the sand-fleas?
No, the cops that patrol the beach. You said you have yet to be
harangued for playing your 'pipes at Ocean Beach late at night and I
assumed that was who you meant. You can't actually *hear* the sand fleas
can you? Are you some kind of entomological Pied Bagpiper?
> Actually, how do you know I don't do it there
> (where it's lost between the sea, the sand, and the sky) because I'm
> *bad*?
I don't know. Are you *bad*? Even if you are, its got to be kind of nice
to play the 'pipes with the roar of the ocean as an accompaniment.
> >Question: Are you always a lone piper, or do you play with a band? I'm
> >curious because I know a few people who play in bands locally.
>
> Well, Adrienne, I play the `pipes, the guitar, the cornet, and the
> clarinet; and none of them with anyone else. I just can't bring
> myself to do so [cringe].
But H.C.- you must! Music needs to be shared!
Do you suffer from stage fright? Or are you reluctant to be the least
experienced person in a band?
(I sort of suffer from stage fright with my paintings. Whenever I hang a
show in a gallery (or restaurant, or cafe) I can't bear to watch
strangers initially looking at them, it's like their looking into my
brain and my heart- very unsettling. I never have a problem with friends
seeing the new works though.)
Maybe you could just play your music for friends?
However, when I've sailed off to Tir Nan
> Og, it is my ambition to become one of these "Phantom Pipers" one
> hears so much about (maybe a gig in London parliament during Tory
> speeches?).
> Hail Eris,
> ---Hagbard
Ambition aside, from what I've gathered of you H.C., you won't get hired
for that position. Only miserable and unhappy people come back to haunt.
Just my opinion,
(the honourable lady)
Adrienne
SashaLynne
In article <33D383...@pacbell.net>, "Adrienne N. Marshall"
<Adr...@pacbell.net> writes:
>It continually amazes me how many cultures share similar mythical
>"types" and counterparts: heros, heroines, magicians, gods, spiritual
>guides, divine beings and monsters. Right down to the present day we
>humans seem to have a real need for tales of spiritual journey and
>adventure.
Carl Jung (who makes more sense than most psychiatrists) would say that
these are all a part of the collective unconciousness--many are archtypes.
Jung really seemed to have a much better grasp of the spiritual aspects
of life, one of the reasons, if I recall correctly, that he broke with S.
Freud.
I suspect that the tales allow us to identify with the spiritual journey
and occasionally give us enough encouragement that we finally dare to try
it ourselves. Listening to those stories allows us to "try it on" and
see, not if it's comfortable, but if it fits. And if it does, we dare to
make the attempt.
And occasionally, the stories become maps that lead us on the first leg of
that journey. The real trick with that is to remember that the map is not
the territory.
Philisophically,
SashaLynne
ed
On Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:12:57 -0700, Rusty Celt <rus...@exis.net>
wrote:
>ed wrote:
>
>> Hang oan a cotton-pickin minute here. Here's me, defending Scotland from
>> vile rabbit-shaped demons who eat toes and turn the rest of our body
>> pairts intae SPAM(tm), and you're bluidy siding with them !!!
>
>Ach! How you can say this when I was just trying to wind you up! I
>need more angora in order to finish this jumper I'm working on. (Holds
>up VERY sharp knitting pins) You see? (Achoo!)
The sherpness of thae needles only counts if ye are willing tae impale
the vile buns with them.
>> *SYMP*
>
>Hrrmmmph! Now, was THAT necessary? (Thump thump thump)
HA !! Condemned out of your ain THUMP
>
>> I dinna ken aboot thae firkin Pubs, seem pairt o the Heritage Industry,
>> which is total in thrall tae the Buns.
>
>HOW can YOU BLAME ALLLLLLLLL those FOUL places on the BUNS?!!! They
>will not go near them as far as I'm aware. (mumble mumble...) Have you
>ever tried their home brew?
It is weel kent that the Buns use the Brewing industry fur their ain
ends, efter all, is beer no made frae *HOPS*.
Hence why ed drinks Stolichnaya.
>It'll burn the paws off anyone - Bun or
>Fudd! <sobbing and keening> It's all sooooooo sad and SOON there will
>be one on YOUR corner! <more shivery-shedding> HEY! Perhaps you should
>consider using that Firkin Ale if you ever run low of Irn-Bru?
You keep yer paws off the Bru. It is hard enow getting hold o the
genuine Glesga article without ye muddying the waters.
>I also
>know where you can get hold of more Moxi, but you have to be nicer to
>me...
MOXIE !! I've nivver tried it, whaur can I get it ??
>Look! If it helps any, over the weekend, The Wallace (my cat) dispposed
>of a American grey squirrel before he could immigrate...
<TIGHTBEAM>
It's a start
</TIGHTBEAM>
>> *SYMP*
>
>THAT Does it!!! ALRIGHT, SMARTY BREEKS! YOU tell ME just HOW a
>HEDGEHOG can REACH the bar, to get to his pint, in the FIRST place!
Stacker heels
>(MAN! Touch Not the Hedgehog Bot a Glove!)
Indeed
ed
----------------------------------------------------------------------
edh...@equus.meatblock.demon.co.uk | EAT AT | __/ / / / /
http://www.equus.demon.co.uk | JANGIR'S | @____/ o / / / /
For devilbunnies, Diplomacy, C&S, | 5 Mins From | \ __/ / / / / /
Conspiring Rodents and other stuff | This .Sig | \ / / / / /
----------------------------------------------------------------------
REMOVE "meatblock" from reply to address. Sorry, SPAMers got to me
Hagbard Celine
On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:17:21 GMT, edh...@equus.meatblock.demon.co.uk
(ed) wrote:
>
>Even as a cliche that doesn't hold water as you can produce smoke
>without fire.
I tell ye' (rubbing two sticks together): there's wee bits of
microscopic fire in there! Ummm, if you define "fire" as oxidation,
and "smoke" as a particulate-ash byproduct of oxidation (as my
dictionary does), then the cliche' holds true. For example, I believe
Aldous Huxley (in Island?) defined life as one long, slow, continuous
process of oxidation, and I can just see the smoke coming out of your
ears right now.
>Let's knock down all that hideous parvenu stuff in both cities then.
Anarchy? Demolition? I'm for it. Don't care much for Georgian
architecture, but since I live in San Francisco, I have to respect the
Victorian. Oh, well.
>Hey I'm not a devilbunny, AoF Soviet if you don't mind.
>
>Shug McBun or Obergruppenfluffer Blackears*, they're Devilbunnies.
*Is he a ... "SturmBUNfuhrer?" */:^}
>Caveat discordia
Usually a safe policy, but then, you never know!
Hail Eris,
---Hagbard
The Nit Nurse
Organization: organization
Sender: blinkensop@no_junk.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.1.8
In article <33d11c53...@news.pacbell.net>, B...@Hail.Eris (Hagbard
Celine) wrote:
|
| >- That drinking session in Edinburgh turned out to be a pint in
| >Greyfriars Bobby, a can of export on the train then the next 6 hours in
| >- the Horseshoe, the State, the Variety, the Arlington, the Halt, the
| >Doublet & Hubbards.)
|
| What about the Royal Oak?
It's not in Glasgow, where all the others are.
| So how many castles do the weegies have?
| I've no idea. Do tell.
About half a dozen I think - Hagg Castle, Cathcart Castle, Castle Milk,
Cochrane Castle to name a couple that spring to mind. None, of course,
ugly monuments to militarism.
It was only included as part of a response to
| a question regarding *popularity* and *antiquity*. In both of which
| categories Edinburgh clearly leads.
That must be why the largest tourist 'pull' is in Glasgow then, right?
(Burrell, I believe). If I recall correctly, Glasgow has proven more 'popular'
with the tourists in recent times than Edinburgh. I'd say that Edinburgh's
'lead' is rather less 'clear' these days.
| >dunno about industry & crime but the traffic (& associated pollution) is
| >much worse in the eastern city.
|
| experienced. I maintain that crime and the by-products of modern
| industry are worse in Glasgow.
Got some numbers for the respective crime figures?
ed
On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:20:16 GMT, B...@Hail.Eris (Hagbard Celine)
wrote:
>On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:17:21 GMT, edh...@equus.meatblock.demon.co.uk
>(ed) wrote:
>>
>>Even as a cliche that doesn't hold water as you can produce smoke
>>without fire.
>
>I tell ye' (rubbing two sticks together): there's wee bits of
>microscopic fire in there! Ummm, if you define "fire" as oxidation,
>and "smoke" as a particulate-ash byproduct of oxidation (as my
>dictionary does), then the cliche' holds true. For example, I believe
>Aldous Huxley (in Island?) defined life as one long, slow, continuous
>process of oxidation, and I can just see the smoke coming out of your
>ears right now.
Always helps to define your assumptions correctly. If we define smoke
as a fine mist of particular matter suspended in a fluid manner by
air, as in the discharge of a smoke grenade or the smouldering before
true fire is achieved then what I say is true, from a certain point of
view.
>>Let's knock down all that hideous parvenu stuff in both cities then.
>
>Anarchy? Demolition? I'm for it. Don't care much for Georgian
>architecture, but since I live in San Francisco, I have to respect the
>Victorian. Oh, well.
Then your time is limited anyway.
>>Hey I'm not a devilbunny, AoF Soviet if you don't mind.
>>
>>Shug McBun or Obergruppenfluffer Blackears*, they're Devilbunnies.
>
>*Is he a ... "SturmBUNfuhrer?" */:^}
Eejit. Sturmbunnfuehrer is a different rank. But he commands
Sturmbunntuppen.
>>Caveat discordia
>
>Usually a safe policy, but then, you never know!
>
>Hail Eris,
Indeed
ed
----------------------------------------------------------------------
edh...@equus.meatblock.demon.co.uk | EAT AT | __/ / / / /
http://www.equus.demon.co.uk | JANGIR'S | @____/ o / / / /
For devilbunnies, Diplomacy, C&S, | 5 Mins From | \ __/ / / / / /
Conspiring Rodents and other stuff | This .Sig | \ / / / / /
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Adrienne N. Marshall
Hagbard wrote:
> >I don't know. Are you *bad*?
> It helps to drown out any mistakes. */;^}
> >Do you suffer from stage fright? Or are you reluctant to be the least
> >experienced person in a band?
> It must be the former and not the latter since it persists across all
> instruments, some of which I began as a wee lad.
From these two replies H.C., I surmise that you are actually a *good*
musician, and yet, a perfectionist who doesn't like to make a mistake in
front of others. Am I right? (If I'm wrong, you may now insult me for my
temerity)
I'm not sure if you realize this but... non-musical people who love
music (like myself) are completely enthralled by people who can play
instruments. And unless you make a whole lot of mistakes, we're going to
be extremely grateful to listen while being simultaneously held
spellbound by the sight of your digital dexterity!
> I have played at the
> weddings of two dear friends; but prefer solitude for musical
> expression.
Honestly, you are the first musician who I have ever heard say this. The
majority of musicians I know are complete ham-bones who often have
trouble fitting their equipment on the stage because their inflated egos
take up so much room!
>D'you know anything about sand-painting?
Yes, but I prefer sculpture for that medium. And not anything as trite
and uninspired as castles for subject matter of course. I'm famous for
stuff like leering Monsters, Trotsky holding an icepick, the Pope
sporting beachwear, The Pits of Hell featuring noted Republicans, giant
Tiki heads, etc...
> >Maybe you could just play your music for friends?
>
> Sometimes, if we're dhrunk enough!
I'll dhrink to that...
Slainte mhor!
Adrienne
The Nit Nurse
pacbell.net>
In article <33d306ef...@news.pacbell.net>, B...@Hail.Eris (Hagbard
Celine) wrote:
|
| But nothing prior to the 15th century. The only thing I remember from
| my last drive through (Greenock ---> Edinburgh) was a cemetary and
| crematorium surrounded by chip shops and petrol stations.
Well, given that you were driving on the M8, it's hardly surprising that
you saw little!
|
| Next week: Aberdeen vs. Inverness. ;^}
Hmm, isn't it usually Aberdeen vs Dundee (And Ft William vs Inverness)?
Greggi
"Martha S. Jones" <msj...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu> wrote:
>Speaking as an ignorant American tourist, I was quite disappointed in the
>amount of Brigadoonery and associated tourist malarkey I observed in
>Edinburgh, particularly parts of the Royal Mile. If Edinburgh had been
>my first or only experience of Scotland, I would have a very misleading
>impression. BTW I live in a tourism-oriented city -- San Antonio, Texas,
>population 1.1 million residents and _lots_ of tourists -- so I have some
>knowledge of what tourism can do to a city. IMHO San Antonio offers
>visitors a much more authentic view of its culture than Edinburgh does.
>Of course SA is much younger, founded 1691 (old by US standards!); maybe
>after a few more centuries we'll be just as bad.
Sadly, tourists dictate to a tourism-based economy. If you're lucky, you have a
decent economic structure apart from the tourism. If not...the tourists wind up
running the show, and you can kiss your culture goodbye. In the end, they'll
just buy up all the land and move there, self-styled "locals" who hang antique
tools on the wall instead of using them for something productive. It's a
miserable state of affairs, and there's not much you can do about it until the
place is so ugly and banal that no one wants to go there anymore...but by then,
it's too late. IMHO, the problem is pretty universal. You can have the most
interesting relics, libraries, and cultural activities in the world, but all
people want to see is one or two small facets of the culture (which usually have
*nothing* to do with daily life). And if they DO happen to see the truly
important bits, they'll usually buy them and take them home as a novelty.
(Why, yes...it IS right in the middle of tourist season for me, how did you
guess?)
Greggi
Greggi
edh...@equus.meatblock.demon.co.uk (ed) wrote:
>On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:20:16 GMT, B...@Hail.Eris (Hagbard Celine)
>wrote:
>>On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:17:21 GMT, edh...@equus.meatblock.demon.co.uk
>>(ed) wrote:
>>>Even as a cliche that doesn't hold water as you can produce smoke
>>>without fire.
>>
>>I tell ye' (rubbing two sticks together): there's wee bits of
>>microscopic fire in there! Ummm, if you define "fire" as oxidation,
>>and "smoke" as a particulate-ash byproduct of oxidation (as my
>>dictionary does), then the cliche' holds true.
>Always helps to define your assumptions correctly. If we define smoke
>as a fine mist of particular matter suspended in a fluid manner by
>air, as in the discharge of a smoke grenade or the smouldering before
>true fire is achieved then what I say is true, from a certain point of
>view.
Okay, listen up. First of all, only gasses 'burn.' Fire (flame) is only the
result of a rapid combustion reaction (combustion being the self-sustaining
process of *rapid* oxidation of a fuel, producing heat and light). To get fire,
you must have fuel, oxygen, and temperature, though this 'fire triangle'
represents the smouldering form of combustion. Add the sustained and uninhibited
chemical chain reaction (the 'fire tetrahedron') and you have open burn (or,
'true fire,' whatever that means). Yes, you can have "smoke" with no *obvious*
flame, but, apart from deliberate chemical manipulations producing a smoke-like
substance, it's difficult to have "smoke" without some form of combustion.
Thus ends today's fire science lesson and personal crankiness. Please check the
batteries in your smoke detectors regularly.
Greggi
Michael Wade
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.970721033153.21938A-
100...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu>, "Martha S. Jones" <msj...@lonestar.jpl.u
tsa.edu> writes
>
>Speaking as an ignorant American tourist, I was quite disappointed in the
>amount of Brigadoonery and associated tourist malarkey I observed in
>Edinburgh, particularly parts of the Royal Mile. If Edinburgh had been
>my first or only experience of Scotland, I would have a very misleading
>impression. BTW I live in a tourism-oriented city -- San Antonio, Texas,
>population 1.1 million residents and _lots_ of tourists -- so I have some
>knowledge of what tourism can do to a city. IMHO San Antonio offers
>visitors a much more authentic view of its culture than Edinburgh does.
>Of course SA is much younger, founded 1691 (old by US standards!); maybe
>after a few more centuries we'll be just as bad.
>
Well said, Martha.
Next time you're in Edinburgh, Scotland and in Britain generally, pick
up the Lonely Planet Guide. It's an Australian guidebook, and it paints
a very fair picture of Edinburgh, Glasgow and Scotland and of the
perfidious Albs to the south. It also has the great strength of
pointing you towards some of the less tartanised parts of Edinburgh,
where the city really gets going.
I think you should post your comments on the Edinburgh WWW site,
www//http/edinburgh.org (or something like that).
--
Michael Wade
Hagbard Celine
On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 21:34:24 GMT, edh...@equus.meatblock.demon.co.uk
(ed) wrote:
>>Hmmm, ed (I mean, Ed):
>
>nope, it's ed, and you'll see why later, or do I have to get petty
>Haggard Sealife <petty, ain't it>
I'd prefer it, eD, when making fun of my pseudonym, if you'd use
"Haggard _Cerise_" like the Agent spell-checker does.
>Not thoroughly, or you'd have seen my post that it's not a theme pub.
>It was the benighted passers by who took it for a theme pub.
Thanks for the eDification.
>What, like glasgow is a civilised place to operate a car with easier
>access and travel than Edinburgh.
No. Yes.
>You try getting effectively from one side of Edinburgh without running into
>the bottlneck descending from Princes St.
I have never successfully made it from *any* one side of Edinburgh to
the opposite without running into a bottleneck of some sort. They are
caused by (in descending order of importance): ancient, narrow, angled
or winding streets; tourist-traffic (including the *huge* number of
taxis, tour-busses and -vans, rentals, Festival-goers [seasonal],
Hogmanay revelers [seasonal], and German grannies); construction (both
new and maintenance); and, finally, the daily work force of a busy
capital. I live in the city in the States with the second-highest
number of annual automobile accidents (and hence, the second-highest
insurance rates). Before you ask: it was like that *before* I arrived
here, alright? I still wouldn't trade the angled, narrow, sometimes
nicely cobbled or brick-paved streets of San Francisco for the broad,
multi-laned boulevards of Los Angeles for all the `weegies in Glasgow,
eD.
>no city is completely safe. Was it ever ?
Not in Scotland . */;^}
>Me, I'd favour Stirling for capital as nearer to the centre of
>Scotland's transport links.
Hmmm, dunno about that; but it *has* been "home" to several of her
young monarchs... */;^}
>There's a fair few catholics in Glasgow too you know.
And no doubt a few fair catholics, too. Ah, those Irish lassies.
>Maybe it was just someone's comedy routine. I might have heard it about
>Edinburgh if the idea of anyone in Edinburgh offering to help a stranger
>is ridiculous. <oops, couldn't resist that, sorry>
No problem. It's your Freudian slip, after all.
>Yeah ? Well if you'd bothered to research it, you'd have seen that ed is
>as much of a pseudonym as Hagbard Celine, and properly it has a lower
>char, it's all on the website.
I'll go there immediately (I finish this drink).
>>and believes that daemonic *rabbits* are out to
>>conquer mankind. <snicker/fluff>
>>>
>Can you prove they're not ?
No...they're too clever for that. Damn! */:^}
>(I subscribe to a conspiracy shared-reality Newsgroup and "Hagbard
>Celine" !!! criticises me.
It's not a criticism, eD, just a good-humoured taunt like the ones in
your paranoid fantasy world...er, um...I mean in your conspiracy
shared-reality newsgroup.
>ed
Hail Eris,
---hAGGARD cERISE
Rusty Celt
Hagbard Celine wrote:
> >>Rusty - Back knitting and getting *Tipsy with the Laird*
> >>(I really must stop using angora fur in these tartan matched under-kilt
> >>cosies - Aaaaachoooooo!)
>
> Oooohhh, under-kilt cosies... That'll keep yer sporran warm.
Talk to Greggi, the Fire Starter/Stopper if you're interested. She was
the last to have the order forms, unless they were all sent to Měcheil
Rob before copies could be made...
Rusty
Hagbard Celine
On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 07:53:37 -0700, Adrienne N. Marshall
<Adr...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>>D'you know anything about sand-painting?
>
>Yes, but I prefer sculpture for that medium. And not anything as trite
>and uninspired as castles for subject matter of course. I'm famous for
>stuff like leering Monsters, Trotsky holding an icepick, the Pope
>sporting beachwear, The Pits of Hell featuring noted Republicans, giant
>Tiki heads, etc...
>
perfectly marvelous! The pope in beachwear! */:^} As a lapsed
catholic, I've been waiting all my life for the first female Pope
(someone like Kathy Ireland, perhaps?). Beachwear, yes. Noted
(American) Republicans (Tories too?) in Hell, aye! Wonderful.
What I meant by my query re sand-painting (both the Tibetan and the
Navajo), was that musical art (like a good football game) is
ephemeral. The sand-painters spend hours (sometimes days) creating a
masterpiece that looks like it was finely laid on with '000' brushes
(even to close inspection!), then they stir it up into a rainbow
melange and sweep it away. The fact that it was here and gone doesn't
diminish its value as art. Sculpture (which I enjoy more than
paintings, generally) is the opposite of this. What you set in stone
or metal will persist for many lifetimes, and be seen by people not
yet born. Have you seen Ruth Osawa's sourdough-bread bronzes?
Hail Eris,
---Hagbard
P.S.: Do you like my new Virtual Balmoral? I got it from Sandy. */:^}
Hagbard Celine
On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:50:36 GMT, gre...@ime.net (Greggi) wrote:
<fire-science lesson deleted to keep Agent happy>
The MacGregors are coming...
Hail Eris,
---H.C.
Hagbard Celine
>On Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:12:57 -0700, Rusty Celt <rus...@exis.net>
>wrote:
>
>>THAT Does it!!! ALRIGHT, SMARTY BREEKS! YOU tell ME just HOW a
>>HEDGEHOG can REACH the bar, to get to his pint, in the FIRST place!
>
>Stacker heels
>
"...and at those prices," said the hedgehog, "you won't get many more
of us in here either!" [rimshot!]
We really do need to stop this cross-group posting.
The alternate-reality of alt.dbs is *interfering* with the
alternate-reality of s.c.s. */;^}
Hail Eris,
---Hagbard Celine
Hagbard Celine
On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:43:28 GMT, tnn@no_junk.com (The Nit Nurse)
wrote:
>
>It's not in Glasgow, where all the others are.
Greyfriar's Bobby certainly is (on Candlemaker); I was just offering a
(delightful) alternative. I could just as easily have recommended the
Jolly Judge or the Malt Shovel.
Glasgow? I never touch the stuff.
>About half a dozen I think - Hagg Castle, Cathcart Castle, Castle Milk,
>Cochrane Castle to name a couple that spring to mind. None, of course,
>ugly monuments to militarism.
Stouts, golf, etc. aside: do you really find Stirling, Eilean Donan,
Cawdor (to name but a few genuine examples) to be "ugly?" I suppose
one could make a case that Crac de Chevaliers was "ugly" (damn good
defensively, though); or perhaps you like `em ruined like Urquhart?
> It was only included as part of a response to
>| a question regarding *popularity* and *antiquity*. In both of which
>| categories Edinburgh clearly leads.
>
>That must be why the largest tourist 'pull' is in Glasgow then, right?
>(Burrell, I believe). If I recall correctly, Glasgow has proven more 'popular'
>with the tourists in recent times than Edinburgh. I'd say that Edinburgh's
>'lead' is rather less 'clear' these days.
I find this difficult to believe. Are you including persons landing
at Prestwick and immediately heading east/north?
>| >dunno about industry & crime but the traffic (& associated pollution) is
>| >much worse in the eastern city.
>|
>| experienced. I maintain that crime and the by-products of modern
>| industry are worse in Glasgow.
>
>Got some numbers for the respective crime figures?
Hmmm... I just did a search on: "edinburgh AND glasgow AND (crime OR
criminal) AND (statistics OR statistical) AND (murder OR murders OR
homicide OR homicides) AND (assault OR assaults) AND (robbery OR
robberies OR theft OR thefts) AND (1987 OR 1988 OR 1989 OR 1990 OR
1991 OR 1992 OR 1993 OR 1994 OR 1995 OR 1996 OR 1997)" and got
nothing back containing any relevant information (lots of IWW
propaganda, though!). I'm basing my supposition on the not-unlikely
theory that higher population (coupled with a greater need to seem
"modern") = more crime. This certainly holds true in the rest of the
world: the bigger the city, the more crime there is. I didn't say
that there was more crime *per capita* (although I'm willing to bet
that's true as well); just that there was more criminal activity in
Glasgow than in the capital. Can *you* provide any numbers that
prove (per capita or not) that there's *less* crime in Glasgow than
in Edinburgh?
Hail Eris (and Welcome 'Back'),
---Hagbard Celine
Hagbard Celine
On Sun, 20 Jul 1997 17:03:01 GMT, edh...@equus.demon.meatblock.co.uk
(ed) wrote:
>The noble Rusty Celt <rus...@exis.net> spake on the day of Sat, 19 Jul
>1997 08:00:31 -0700:
>
>Hang oan a cotton-pickin minute here. Here's me, defending Scotland from
>vile rabbit-shaped demons who eat toes and turn the rest of our body
>pairts intae SPAM(tm), and you're bluidy siding with them !!!
I thought spam was a by-product of Tory speechwriting.
>>Rusty - Back knitting and getting *Tipsy with the Laird*
>>(I really must stop using angora fur in these tartan matched under-kilt
>>cosies - Aaaaachoooooo!)
Oooohhh, under-kilt cosies... That'll keep yer sporran warm.
Hail Eris,
---Hagbard
ed
On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:18:05 GMT, B...@Hail.Eris (Hagbard Celine)
wrote:
>We really do need to stop this cross-group posting.
>The alternate-reality of alt.dbs is *interfering* with the
>alternate-reality of s.c.s. */;^}
>
>Hail Eris,
> ---Hagbard Celine
>
Listen, we had enough problems with Yank authors treating Scotland as
a mythical (rather than mythic) place at the 95 Worldcon withou you
spreading further doubt as to Scotland's reality.
The Nit Nurse
In article <33f65f98...@news.pacbell.net>, B...@Hail.Eris (Hagbard
Celine) wrote:
| On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:43:28 GMT, tnn@no_junk.com (The Nit Nurse)
| wrote:
| >
| >It's not in Glasgow, where all the others are.
|
| Greyfriar's Bobby certainly is (on Candlemaker); I was just offering a
| (delightful) alternative. I could just as easily have recommended the
| Jolly Judge or the Malt Shovel.
Or The Cask and Barrel? Actually, the pubs in Edinburgh are pretty poor these
days, certainly not a patch on Glasgow pubs such as the Bon Accord, Horseshoe,
etc. Rose Street is quite pathetic.
| Glasgow? I never touch the stuff.
Your loss.
|
| >About half a dozen I think - Hagg Castle, Cathcart Castle, Castle Milk,
| >Cochrane Castle to name a couple that spring to mind. None, of course,
| >ugly monuments to militarism.
|
| Stouts, golf, etc. aside: do you really find Stirling, Eilean Donan,
| Cawdor (to name but a few genuine examples) to be "ugly?" I suppose
| one could make a case that Crac de Chevaliers was "ugly" (damn good
| defensively, though); or perhaps you like `em ruined like Urquhart?
You're not very good at parsing a sentence, are you? I said 'ugly monuments
to militarism'. When was the last time Eilan Donan had a military tatoo or
Cawdor fired a One O' Clock gun? As for Stirling - well, yes it is ugly.
Edinburgh castle would be better served being knocked down and the whole
area turned into a theme park. The rock would make an excellent base for a
mega roller coaster, straight down into the gardens.
|
| > It was only included as part of a response to
| >| a question regarding *popularity* and *antiquity*. In both of which
| >| categories Edinburgh clearly leads.
| >
| >That must be why the largest tourist 'pull' is in Glasgow then, right?
| >(Burrell, I believe). If I recall correctly, Glasgow has proven more
'popular'
| >with the tourists in recent times than Edinburgh. I'd say that Edinburgh's
| >'lead' is rather less 'clear' these days.
|
| I find this difficult to believe.
Try the Scottish tourist board figures, published annually.
| Are you including persons landing
| at Prestwick and immediately heading east/north?
Given that they're numbers would be staggeringly small, I'd suggest that they
were irrelavent. How many people do you think land at Prestwick every year,
let alone head 'east/north'?
|
| >| >dunno about industry & crime but the traffic (& associated pollution) is
| >| >much worse in the eastern city.
| >|
| >| experienced. I maintain that crime and the by-products of modern
| >| industry are worse in Glasgow.
| >
| >Got some numbers for the respective crime figures?
|
| Hmmm... I just did a search on: "edinburgh AND glasgow AND (crime OR
| criminal) AND (statistics OR statistical) AND (murder OR murders OR
[..]
| propaganda, though!). I'm basing my supposition on the not-unlikely
| theory that higher population (coupled with a greater need to seem
| "modern") = more crime. This certainly holds true in the rest of the
| world:
Unless, of course it's Japanese cities, then your theory comes off the rails
as it does if comparing European cities with similar sized cities in the
US.
| the bigger the city, the more crime there is. I didn't say
| that there was more crime *per capita* (although I'm willing to bet
| that's true as well); just that there was more criminal activity in
| Glasgow than in the capital. Can *you* provide any numbers that
| prove (per capita or not) that there's *less* crime in Glasgow than
| in Edinburgh?
I'm not the one making claims, you are. I'm just asking you to back it up with
some numbers rather than what appears to be prejudice. I find your 'prove
me wrong' response somewhat telling.
Hagbard Celine
On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:46:27 GMT, edh...@equus.meatblock.demon.co.uk
(ed) wrote:
>
>Listen, we had enough problems with Yank authors treating Scotland as
>a mythical (rather than mythic) place at the 95 Worldcon withou you
>spreading further doubt as to Scotland's reality.
If you think s.c.s. is the Reality of Scotland, I fear that the
Devilbunnies have gotten to you already. Imagine having the
conversations that are had in here while waiting for the clothes to
dry. It's just as much an alternate reality as the daydream you'll
have after lunch, or alt.dbs. Wait, howzzat done... =*/;-} Yeah.
Hail Hail Rock`n' Roll,
---Hagbard
Rusty Celt
Hagbard! You are really Coinneach Odhar Fiosaiche, and I claim my 10
quid! Now, we just have to figure out how you got to Badenoch and then
San Francisco... By the way, may I have my blue stone back, or is it
true that you lost it?
Rusty
(listening for the clothes to dry...)
ed
The noble B...@Hail.Eris (Hagbard Celine) spake on the day of Tue, 22 Jul
1997 07:22:23 GMT:
>On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 21:34:24 GMT, edh...@equus.meatblock.demon.co.uk
>(ed) wrote:
>>>Hmmm, ed (I mean, Ed):
>>
>>nope, it's ed, and you'll see why later, or do I have to get petty
>>Haggard Sealife <petty, ain't it>
>
>I'd prefer it, eD, when making fun of my pseudonym, if you'd use
>"Haggard _Cerise_" like the Agent spell-checker does.
Hagridden Sealouse. Hmm, my spellchecker does it differently.
>Thanks for the eDification.
Well, you seem in need of a basic eDucation in many things.
>>no city is completely safe. Was it ever ?
>
>Not in Scotland . */;^}
This from someone living in the US, a country that seems to make a hobby
out of shooting lost and bewildered guests to it's shores
>>Me, I'd favour Stirling for capital as nearer to the centre of
>>Scotland's transport links.
>
>Hmmm, dunno about that; but it *has* been "home" to several of her
>young monarchs... */;^}
So have Scone, Linlithgow etc. One thing I don't think Glasgow needs is
all the shenanigans of the Parliament.
>>There's a fair few catholics in Glasgow too you know.
>
>And no doubt a few fair catholics, too. Ah, those Irish lassies.
Well the one I work with is aubern actually.
>>Yeah ? Well if you'd bothered to research it, you'd have seen that ed is
>>as much of a pseudonym as Hagbard Celine, and properly it has a lower
>>char, it's all on the website.
>
>I'll go there immediately (I finish this drink).
And much welcome you were. Rather typical choice of your previous five
URl visits but there you go.
>>>and believes that daemonic *rabbits* are out to
>>>conquer mankind. <snicker/fluff>
>>>>
>>Can you prove they're not ?
>
>No...they're too clever for that. Damn! */:^}
Welcome to the problem
>>(I subscribe to a conspiracy shared-reality Newsgroup and "Hagbard
>>Celine" !!! criticises me.
>
>It's not a criticism, eD, just a good-humoured taunt like the ones in
>your paranoid fantasy world...er, um...I mean in your conspiracy
>shared-reality newsgroup.
>
>>ed
>
Hang on, I've just been informed that a.dbs is all true.
Hail Weisshaupt
ed
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
edh...@equus.demon.meatblock.co.uk | EAT AT | __/ / / / /
http://www.equus.demon.co.uk | JANGIR'S | @____/ o / / / /
For devilbunnies, Diplomacy, C&S, | 5 Mins From | \ __/ / / / / /
Conspiring Rodents and other stuff | This .Sig | \ / / / / /
----------------------------------------------------------------------
remove "meatblock" from address. Spammers got to me
Charles Mcgregor
In message <hbtnn-23079...@kerrera.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
hbtnn@no_junk.com (The Nit Nurse) writes:
> In article <33f65f98...@news.pacbell.net>, B...@Hail.Eris (Hagbard
> Celine) wrote:
> | On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:43:28 GMT, tnn@no_junk.com (The Nit Nurse)
> | wrote:
> | >
> | >It's not in Glasgow, where all the others are.
> |
> | Greyfriar's Bobby certainly is (on Candlemaker); I was just offering a
> | (delightful) alternative. I could just as easily have recommended the
> | Jolly Judge or the Malt Shovel.
> Or The Cask and Barrel? Actually, the pubs in Edinburgh are pretty poor these
> days, certainly not a patch on Glasgow pubs such as the Bon Accord,
Horseshoe,
> etc. Rose Street is quite pathetic.
These two pubs are the tackiest poser's palaces in Glasgow outside of
Charlie Parkers.
If your going to nominate a Glasgow pub, make it a good one, like the
Scotia for instance.
regards
chic
Charles Mcgregor
In message <33D62A...@pacbell.net><snip>
> Actually, sculpture doesn't *have* to be opposite of this idea- have you
> ever heard of Andy Goldsworthy? He's an English sculptor (though wise
> enough to live in Scotland!- Dumfrieshire) who does these amazing
> constructions using *only* natural materials- leaves, grasses, branches,
> trees, dirt, sand, ice, snow, rocks, boulders and using *only* natural
> materials to keep them temporarily in place - thorns, water and gravity
> for the most part. Amazingly beautiful!!! He takes pictures of them when
> completed and also as they slowly decompose themselves by the forces of
> nature. He has been my favorite (living) sculptor for about seven years
> now (his work appealed to me intitially because it has many things in
> common with my own artwork), and since you seem to admire the concept of
> transitory art, I think you will really like him too.
> After that wonderful book referal (I just finished it at 2:00 A.M. last
> night, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" is *Awesome*,
> *Beautiful* and *Profound*!!! You were right, I will definitely spread
> the word on this one. Thank you H.C.!!!), I'm going to give you my own.
> Go to any bookstore with a large art section and look at Mr.
> Goldworthy's books, there are four that I know of: "A Collaboration with
> Nature", "Hand to Earth", "Stone", and "Wood" - a feast for the eyes.
> Trust me.
> After you've seen them, let me know what you think, okay?
> Your usenet friend,
> Adrienne
He has had at least two TV programs dedicated to him in Scotland. I
love his work.
I am a sculptor too, but strictly representational.
regards
chic
Hagbard Celine
On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:58:53 -0700, "Adrienne N. Marshall"
<Adr...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>I was raised Catholic too, well anyway my mother (who is French)
<blush> (I suppose I should stop saying bad things about the French;
sorry...)
> and as
>Catholic as could be) tried desperately, but I could never listen to the
>weekly rote repetitions - I was busy gazing at all the gothic-style
>ornamentation and stained glass.
Aye, the true value of 'papery' is in their tolerance and their art.
> Besides, as far back as I can remember
>I've been a nature worshipping agnostic (which serves me very well
>spiritually).
A wee Pagan, eh?
> Morally, I was always firmly in the camp of the Scottish
>side of my family - lapsed Catholics/lapsed Protestants - Socialists
>all. */:^}
>Yes, I can just see cover of Vogue- "Kathy Ireland's Papal Style- Its
>magnificent and pontificent this Fall!
Hysterical. And she may have a chance, given that the cardinals seem
to prefer their candidates in their `70's...
> The
>monks just shrugged and smiled when they were told what had happened.
Ah, the serenity of nirvana...
> [H]ave you
>ever heard of Andy Goldsworthy? <snip>
>Goldworthy's books, there are four that I know of: "A Collaboration with
>Nature", "Hand to Earth", "Stone", and "Wood"
>After you've seen them, let me know what you think, okay?
I've copied and saved this. I'll do a web search later and then check
out the (large) section at Green Apple next time I'm over there. Will
let you know, certainly. You've seen footage from the ice-sculpture
competition they hold each year in Japan? Or from the sand-sculpture
flings they have in San Diego and Texas? More examples of ephemeral
art.
Hail Eris,
---Hagbard
Hagbard Celine
On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:49:18 GMT, hbtnn@no_junk.com (The Nit Nurse)
wrote:
>
>Edinburgh castle would be better served being knocked down and the whole
>area turned into a theme park. The rock would make an excellent base for a
>mega roller coaster, straight down into the gardens.
I think we'll just let this stand for all to see.
>Unless, of course it's Japanese cities, then your theory comes off the rails
>as it does if comparing European cities with similar sized cities in the
>US.
In Japanese cities, they've pet-disposal boxes on the sidewalks where
you can drop your scotty down a large chute into an underground room
where the discards are later gassed and disposed of. And many another
social contrivance which would be out of place in Scotland. Re
europe: I wasn't comparing European cities to U.S. cities; I was
comparing larger cities to smaller cities within the same country:
>| the bigger the city, the more crime there is. I find your 'prove
>me wrong' response somewhat telling.
"What's good for the gander is good for the goose," eh?
Hail Eris,
---Hagbard Celine
Hagbard Celine
On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:24:09 -0700, Rusty Celt <rus...@exis.net>
wrote:
>
>Hagbard! You are really Coinneach Odhar Fiosaiche,
{?}
> and I claim my 10
>quid!
Ah, the quaint customs of s.c.s. ...
>Now, we just have to figure out how you got to Badenoch and then
>San Francisco...
`Came over with me ma, actually. To Florida. Made it to S.F. all on
my own (years later).
> By the way, may I have my blue stone back, or is it
>true that you lost it?
<excuse me?>
Ye *may* want to lay off the hame-brew, Rusty. I fear it's addled yer
wits. */;^}
Hail Eris,
---Hagbard
Rusty Celt
Hagbard Celine wrote:
>
> On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:24:09 -0700, Rusty Celt <rus...@exis.net>
> wrote:
> >
> >Hagbard! You are really Coinneach Odhar Fiosaiche,
>
> {?}
(sigh)
> > and I claim my 10
> >quid!
>
> Ah, the quaint customs of s.c.s. ...
>
> >Now, we just have to figure out how you got to Badenoch and then
> >San Francisco...
>
> `Came over with me ma, actually. To Florida. Made it to S.F. all on
> my own (years later).
>
> > By the way, may I have my blue stone back, or is it
> >true that you lost it?
>
> <excuse me?>
Hmmm... Doesn't know the legend...
Nope. No point counting his fingers and toes now. He's not the Brahan
Seer either... Ah well, back to the drawing board.
> Ye *may* want to lay off the hame-brew, Rusty. I fear it's addled yer
> wits. */;^}
Aye and now I do give up! The secret with me isn't in hame-brew or
*Stag's Breath.* It's Guinness and Talisker, of which I'm currently out
of. And when all else fails, I blame it on the hair...
Cheers!
Rusty
Adrienne N. Marshall
H.C. wrote:
> <blush> (I suppose I should stop saying bad things about the French;
> sorry...)
>
don't feel too bad, after all, I'm an American. :-)
> A wee Pagan, eh?
>
Sort of, but I don't get into any of that new age mysticism or crystal
gazing stuff. Seems pretty nonsensical and slightly pathetic overall.
Just my opinion.
> You've seen footage from the ice-sculpture
> competition they hold each year in Japan?
No, actually I haven't.
> Or from the sand-sculpture
> flings they have in San Diego and Texas?
Heard of these.
> More examples of ephemeral
> art.
Yes, great stuff. Still, you've neatly side-stepped answering all my
questions about your music- which is not truly ephemeral if it is
recorded. But nevermind, I'll not pester you about it anymore.
Best Regards,
Adrienne :-)
Adrienne N. Marshall
> As a lapsed
> catholic,
I was raised Catholic too, well anyway my mother (who is French and as
Catholic as could be) tried desperately, but I could never listen to the
weekly rote repetitions - I was busy gazing at all the gothic-style
I've been a nature worshipping agnostic (which serves me very well
side of my family - lapsed Catholics/lapsed Protestants - Socialists
all.
> I've been waiting all my life for the first female Pope
Well, don't hold your breath H.C., we women are supposed to be "the
weaker vessels" remember? Spiritually bankrupt, untrustworthy, apple
wielding vixens- we need iron fisted male guidance or it's straight to
the gutter wi' the likes o' us all! (Honestly, I always wondered how the
nuns could stand it without going completely mad)
Being a socialist served me here as well- the men don't look down on
their women (at least, not in my family).
> (someone like Kathy Ireland, perhaps?).
Yes, I can just see cover of Vogue- "Kathy Ireland's Papal Style- Its
magnificent and pontificent this Fall!
> What I meant by my query re sand-painting (both the Tibetan and the
> Navajo), was that musical art (like a good football game) is
> ephemeral. The sand-painters spend hours (sometimes days) creating a
> masterpiece that looks like it was finely laid on with '000' brushes
> (even to close inspection!), then they stir it up into a rainbow
> melange and sweep it away.
Yes, it's amazing the way they create those beautiful mandalas. Do you
remember about six years ago when a group of Tibetan monks did a huge
sand painting on the floor of the Asian Art Museum? It was supposed to
remain in place for a month but two days after they completed it
(luckily for me I went and saw it the first day) some crazy
Fundamentalist Christian woman came in, started screaming about the
Devil and proceeded to destroy the whole thing in about 20 seconds. The
monks just shrugged and smiled when they were told what had happened.
The fact that it was here and gone doesn't
> diminish its value as art. Sculpture (which I enjoy more than
> paintings, generally) is the opposite of this. What you set in stone
> or metal will persist for many lifetimes, and be seen by people not
> yet born. Have you seen Ruth Osawa's sourdough-bread bronzes?
(Yes, I love all her work.)
Actually, sculpture doesn't *have* to be opposite of this idea- have you
ever heard of Andy Goldsworthy? He's an English sculptor (though wise
enough to live in Scotland!- Dumfrieshire) who does these amazing
constructions using *only* natural materials- leaves, grasses, branches,
trees, dirt, sand, ice, snow, rocks, boulders and using *only* natural
materials to keep them temporarily in place - thorns, water and gravity
for the most part. Amazingly beautiful!!! He takes pictures of them when
completed and also as they slowly decompose themselves by the forces of
nature. He has been my favorite (living) sculptor for about seven years
now (his work appealed to me intitially because it has many things in
common with my own artwork), and since you seem to admire the concept of
transitory art, I think you will really like him too.
After that wonderful book referal (I just finished it at 2:00 A.M. last
night, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" is *Awesome*,
*Beautiful* and *Profound*!!! You were right, I will definitely spread
the word on this one. Thank you H.C.!!!), I'm going to give you my own.
Go to any bookstore with a large art section and look at Mr.
Goldworthy's books, there are four that I know of: "A Collaboration with
Nature", "Hand to Earth", "Stone", and "Wood" - a feast for the eyes.
Trust me.
After you've seen them, let me know what you think, okay?
Your usenet friend,
Adrienne
> P.S.: Do you like my new Virtual Balmoral? I got it from Sandy. */:^}
Very sporty Hagbard!
Your Name Here
In article <199707232...@zetnet.co.uk>, Charles Mcgregor
<chi...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
| In message <hbtnn-23079...@kerrera.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
| hbtnn@no_junk.com (The Nit Nurse) writes:
|
| > In article <33f65f98...@news.pacbell.net>, B...@Hail.Eris (Hagbard
| > Celine) wrote:
|
| > | On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:43:28 GMT, tnn@no_junk.com (The Nit Nurse)
| > | wrote:
| > | >
| > | >It's not in Glasgow, where all the others are.
| > |
| > | Greyfriar's Bobby certainly is (on Candlemaker); I was just offering a
| > | (delightful) alternative. I could just as easily have recommended the
| > | Jolly Judge or the Malt Shovel.
|
| > Or The Cask and Barrel? Actually, the pubs in Edinburgh are pretty
poor these
| > days, certainly not a patch on Glasgow pubs such as the Bon Accord,
| Horseshoe,
| > etc. Rose Street is quite pathetic.
|
| These two pubs are the tackiest poser's palaces in Glasgow outside of
| Charlie Parkers.
Really? Care to explain why? - I will concede that at one point (about 10
years ago) The Bon Accord was a watering hole for CAMRA types but these days its
a rather unassuming pub with a good selection of beer and whisky. As for the
Horseshoe being tacky?????
| If your going to nominate a Glasgow pub, make it a good one, like the
| Scotia for instance.
Oh *yawn*!! Now THAT (and the Clutha Vaults) are current 'places to be seen in'
Pose-factor 8. Full of chunky-knit jumpered folkies. Scotia *used* to be good
but now its full of wannabe's hoping to bump into someone famous.
Hagbard Celine
On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:13:30 -0700, Rusty Celt <rus...@exis.net>
wrote:
>
>Hmmm... Doesn't know the legend...
No, I don't speak or read Gaelic (save for the odd word), and I hadn't
heard of Kenneth MacKenzie, either (until I did a web search on
Coinneach Odhar Fiosaiche). I knew of the Brahan Seer, of course, and
if you'd referenced him as that I'd have got your joke. But remember,
I came over the Atlantic at quite a young age, and have only been back
a few times since (and as an adult).
But, if it makes you feel any better, I *am* a (card-carrying) member
of the A.O.I.S.B. ...
Hail Adam Weishaupt (Your Turn To Search),
---Hagbard
P.S.: Every redhead I've known has been very good luck indeed to me.
*/;^}
Adrienne N. Marshall
Hagbard wrote:
> No problem:
>
>
> Lone.
> Yes.
> No.
> Yes.
> Maybe.
> I do (sometimes).
> Yes.
> That better?
Is what better?
One word answers? [Sigh] Well, since I'm not a dentist, I suppose it
will have to suffice!
*/;^}
And don't give me that *look* either!
"Genteel"!!!
Are you trying to pick a fight?
> Hail Eris,
> ---Hagbard
Despite what you claim H.C., that apple is *not* golden. It's rotten,
and you should have thrown it out weeks ago.
While your at it, would you mind showing Ms. Eris to the door?
Thanks so much,
Adrienne
Your Name Here
net>
Organization: Scud-U-Like, Iraq
Sender: blinkensop@no_junk.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.1.8
In article <33ec756d...@news.pacbell.net>, B...@Hail.Eris (Hagbard
Celine) wrote:
| On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:49:18 GMT, hbtnn@no_junk.com (The Nit Nurse)
| wrote:
| >
| >Edinburgh castle would be better served being knocked down and the whole
| >area turned into a theme park. The rock would make an excellent base for a
| >mega roller coaster, straight down into the gardens.
|
| I think we'll just let this stand for all to see.
Since I've posted it before, it's hardly a novelty to the regulars in this
group.
| >Unless, of course it's Japanese cities, then your theory comes off the rails
| >as it does if comparing European cities with similar sized cities in the
| >US.
|
| In Japanese cities, they've pet-disposal boxes on the sidewalks where
| you can drop your scotty down a large chute into an underground room
| where the discards are later gassed and disposed of. And many another
| social contrivance which would be out of place in Scotland.
In otherwords, culture has more of an influence on crime rates than a
simplistic size correlation. Well done.
Re
| europe: I wasn't comparing European cities to U.S. cities; I was
| comparing larger cities to smaller cities within the same country:
But even that doesn't hold, as you previously claimed. In the US there are
small towns with much higher crime rates than much larger ones. So even there,
the wheels come off your 'theory'. Even in Scotland it doesn't hold. Paisley
has more crime than Aberdeen despite being half its size.
|
| >| the bigger the city, the more crime there is. I find your 'prove
| >me wrong' response somewhat telling.
|
| "What's good for the gander is good for the goose," eh?
Nope, not even close. When one asserts that something is true (in this
case your claim that Glasgow has more crime than Edinburgh due to size) one
usually has some evidence or 'proof' which allows one to come to this
conclusion. I asked you to show us this 'proof' and your response was
'prove me wrong' - something that would be rather difficult to do when we
don't know what your 'proof' or evidence is! The conclusion I must draw in
that case is that either the 'proof' doesn't exist and your assertion is
based on prejudice or your trolling. Or maybe you have another explanation?
In fact, I don't know if Glasgow has more or less crime than Edinburgh - which
is why I asked you for the numbers.
Hagbard Celine
On Thu, 24 Jul 1997 02:26:28 -0700, Adrienne N. Marshall
<Adr...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>One word answers? [Sigh] Well, since I'm not a dentist, I suppose it
>will have to suffice!
Oou `aid oou waaded anhers: oou got anhers. Whaa? Doh' oou aahhive
oour `osts? {:^8O} <Hagbard at the Dentist's...>
>"Genteel"!!!
>Are you trying to pick a fight?
<rinse, spit>
Are you denying that you're: "ladylike, well-bred, refined, polite,
elegant, and fashionable?"
>While you're at it, would you mind showing Ms. Eris to the door?
Stay tuned...
Hail (Er...Something),
---Hagbard */:^E}
Adrienne N. Marshall
> He has had at least two TV programs dedicated to him in Scotland. I
> love his work.
yet.
His work is *amazing*- simple yet complex, iconic but completely and
wonderfully new.
>
> regards
> chic
>
is the realistic patterns which occur in nature.
If you don't mind my asking, what type of medium(s) do you use for your
sculpture?
Occasionally I sculpt in clay and do raku firing outside (at a friends
house in Marin) with different layers of organic materials. Ever tried
this? It's really interesting because each layer fires differently -
almost like an alchemists experiment- because you never know what going
to happen or what colors you'll get and you can't really control the
process like with regular glazed and kiln fired clay.
Regards,
Adrienne
Adrienne N. Marshall
> >"Genteel"!!!
> >Are you trying to pick a fight?
>
> <rinse, spit>
> Are you denying that you're: "ladylike, well-bred, refined, polite,
> elegant, and fashionable?"
[blush] Oh,... I thought you might have meant it the other way, like in
a snobbish, prudish, upper crust-ish sort of way (attitudes which go
completely against my socialist beliefs).
Sorry H.C. and thanks for the gracious compliments.
> >While you're at it, would you mind showing Ms. Eris to the door?
>
> Stay tuned...
>
> Hail (Er...Something),
> ---Hagbard */:^E}
Soon to disappear are you? In that case, I'll just tell you now that's
its been a real pleasure meeting you, whoever you are.
Best regards,
Adrienne
Charles Mcgregor
In message <hbtnn-24079...@kerrera.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
hbtnn@no_junk.com (Your Name Here) writes:
> In article <199707232...@zetnet.co.uk>, Charles Mcgregor
> <chi...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> | In message <hbtnn-23079...@kerrera.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
> | hbtnn@no_junk.com (The Nit Nurse) writes:
> |
> | > In article <33f65f98...@news.pacbell.net>, B...@Hail.Eris (Hagbard
Now wouldn't life be unbearable if we all had the same opinion?
Let's see if we can get a compromise...hmmm......hummmm....
*Got it!* ... Jinty M'Ginty's (SP?)
Altogether now:-
Oooh NOOoo! Not *Jin*ty M'G*int*y's!?
regards
chic
Hagbard Celine
On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:08:45 +0100, Charles Mcgregor
<chi...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>I am a sculptor too, but strictly representational.
It comes as little surprise, chic. What are your media (and your
subjects, for that matter)?
Genuinely Interested,
---Hagbard
ed
>> In article <199707232...@zetnet.co.uk>, Charles Mcgregor
Costorphine Inn in Costorphine Road is Ok.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
edh...@equus.meatblock.demon.co.uk | EAT AT | __/ / / / /
http://www.equus.demon.co.uk | JANGIR'S | @____/ o / / / /
For devilbunnies, Diplomacy, C&S, | 5 Mins From | \ __/ / / / / /
Conspiring Rodents and other stuff | This .Sig | \ / / / / /
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rusty Celt
Hagbard Celine wrote:
>
> On Thu, 24 Jul 1997 20:23:22 -0700, Adrienne N. Marshall
> <Adr...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> >
> >Soon to disappear are you?
>
> I try to gie my pseudonyms at least a few months. I've just noticed
> that the "Nit Nurse" has gone to "Your Name Here." Now if only I
> could figure out who "Micheil Rob MacPhadruig" is...
> <-Hagbard On->
You poor deary... He's exactly who he says he is. There's no need to
strain too hard. Not bad, that Gaelic, is it? Nit Nurse will also be
back. He's a legend in these parts. So, when are you coming out,
yourself? You know, your surname could easily be Grant or MacPherson...
Ceilteach Meirgeach
Hagbard Celine
On Sat, 19 Jul 1997 20:30:36 +0100, Barney Macfarlane
<bar...@barneymc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>Sunshine Glasgow.
*/:^} Touche'.
Hail Eris,
---Hagbard Celine
Hagbard Celine
On Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:01:54 GMT, edh...@equus.meatblock.demon.co.uk
(ed) wrote:
>
>Meshugginah Illuminatus
Careful, or I'll ask the Nine to un-freeze those Nazis...
Heil (Er, Hail) Eris,
---Hagbard
P.S.: So, you ask, why is Hagbard responding to a post I wrote 9 days
ago? Answer: pacbell. BTW, I checked out yer page(s), & was
positively *frightened* by the sheer # of things we have in common.
I've: read the same books, enjoyed the same shows (w/ the exception of
"Highlander;" ye gods, ed, what c-r-r-r-ap!), and played the same
games (yes, even C&S!). Re: Avalon Hill --- ever stared at so many
pink-&-grey charts you *dreamed* about `em?
ed
On Sat, 26 Jul 1997 21:06:04 GMT, B...@Hail.Eris (Hagbard Celine)
wrote:
>On Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:01:54 GMT, edh...@equus.meatblock.demon.co.uk
>(ed) wrote:
>>
>>Meshugginah Illuminatus
>
>Careful, or I'll ask the Nine to un-freeze those Nazis...
Nonsense, my fellow Cthulhu Cultists have tham trademarked and locked
up
>Heil (Er, Hail) Eris,
> ---Hagbard
>
>P.S.: So, you ask, why is Hagbard responding to a post I wrote 9 days
>ago? Answer: pacbell.
Fair enough
> BTW, I checked out yer page(s), & was
>positively *frightened* by the sheer # of things we have in common.
>I've: read the same books, enjoyed the same shows (w/ the exception of
>"Highlander;" ye gods, ed, what c-r-r-r-ap!),
Crap with swords, there's a difference
> and played the same
>games (yes, even C&S!). Re: Avalon Hill --- ever stared at so many
>pink-&-grey charts you *dreamed* about `em?
Yea! Mind you I played SPI's "the Next War" and lived, and I used to
play "Air War" for fun
feel free to take this to email if you want to swap more stories
ed
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