A potential solution for the Bambi problem in Scotland - reintroduce wolves to the Highlands! (and wolves make good pets ... :)
La N
Science News
Wolf Reintroduction Proposed In Scottish Highland Test Case
ScienceDaily (July 20, 2009) - Researchers are proposing in a new report
that a major experiment be conducted to reintroduce wolves to a test site in
the Scottish Highlands, to help control the populations and behavior of red
deer that in the past 250 years have changed the whole nature of large
ecosystems.
The proposal is modeled after research done in the United States, at
Yellowstone National Park and elsewhere, which has demonstrated that the
absence of large predators such as wolves and cougars has allowed deer, elk
and other animals to badly overgraze lands and ravish entire terrestrial
ecosystems.
If successful, the experiment might demonstrate the same ecosystem recovery
is possible in Scotland that has been accomplished in some parts of the U.S.
where wolves have been brought back.
"Wolves were last found in Scotland more than 250 years ago, and as a result
it's likely that very few natural areas now bear much resemblance to their
native conditions," said William Ripple, a professor of forest ecosystems
and society at Oregon State University, and one of the world's leading
experts in the study of the interaction of grazing ungulates and large
predators.
"There's an increasing awareness that the loss of large predators is a
global issue, both marine and terrestrial," Ripple said. "The effects
ultimately extend to forests, grasslands, streams, fisheries and wildlife.
We see the same kinds of impacts time after time."
In what has been called restoring "landscapes of fear," scientists point not
just to the effect of large predators in helping to control the populations
of grazing animals, but also their behavior. The threat of predation and
attack can fundamentally change the movement and activities of grazing
animals 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, in ways that such approaches as
human hunting fail to do.
The native red deer in Scotland - essentially the same animal as elk in the
United States - have not faced predation or fear such as that for 250 years.
Deer densities in that country are now thought to be so high they are close
to the food-limiting carrying capacity of the land, and have serious
consequences on native Scots pine and birch regeneration.
In Yellowstone National Park in the U.S., the reintroduction of wolves after
decades of absence is now allowing willow, aspen and cottonwood trees to
thrive once again in some places, instead of being eaten as young shoots by
elk. This is helping to control stream erosion. The interactive webs of
birds, insects, fish and beaver are returning to health. These processes,
called "trophic cascades," result when the loss of one key predator can have
cascading effects on an ecosystem that go far beyond the obvious.
The new report is just being published in the journal Biological
Conservation, co-authored by Ripple, Adrian Manning of the Australian
National University in Canberra, and Iain Gordon of CSIRO Sustainable
Ecosystems in Australia.
It outlines a situation in Scotland that may be especially challenging. The
land has been so systemically changed, for such a long period, that even
local residents may have no memory of what it once looked like.
"The long-term absence of any organism or ecosystem from a region can be a
major barrier to restoration," the scientists wrote in their report. "Over
generations, human memory of an ecosystem, or the presence of a particular
organism diminishes, and expectations of good ecological conditions are
gradually lowered. The idea of reintroductions and large-scale ecological
restoration seems too intractable, complex, open-ended, confronting or
radical to be feasible."
In light of that, the scientists are proposing a substantial test case - on
a Scottish island or a major fenced area - that would allow the
reintroduction of wolves on a more limited area, and a careful monitoring of
their effects on red deer populations, behavior, and hopefully ecosystem
recovery.
Researchers believe that areas in Scotland now dominated by pure pine trees
were once a diverse mixture of mixed pine, birch forest, abundant alder,
rowan, willow, aspen, bird cherry and juniper, with scattered oaks, lichens,
trees with holes and cavities for nesting, large downed logs, and multiple
other features.
In many areas, diverse forests of Scotland have now simply been replaced by
overgrazed moorland.
Because of the potentially profound affect of wolves on red deer behavior as
well as populations, researchers said in the report that relatively few
wolves might have a large impact.
A controlled experiment demonstrating the whole ecosystem benefits that
might result from such an approach, the researchers said, would be well
worth the "considerable media attention" and potential controversy such a
project might entail.
S Viemeister
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090720134527.htm
>
>
I you were a wolf - given a choice of easy to catch sheep, or big, fast,
antlered deer - which would you be more likely to have for dinner?
Cory Bhreckan
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090720134527.htm
>
>
> Science News
> Wolf Reintroduction Proposed In Scottish Highland Test Case
<snip>
The sheep farmers are going to *love* this.
--
"For the stronger we our houses do build,
The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall
S Viemeister
> La N wrote:
>> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090720134527.htm
>>
>>
>> Science News
>> Wolf Reintroduction Proposed In Scottish Highland Test Case
>
> <snip>
>
> The sheep farmers are going to *love* this.
>
>
Charles Ellson
The sheep farmers are too busy moaning about sea eagles ATM :-
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article4813644.ece
Deirdre Sholto Douglas
There will be mention of sheep eventually...
right after some insurance company has to pay
out compensation.
Given the damage a strange dog running into a
flock can do, I daresay the idea of a wolf pack
running rampant is probably not warming the
cockles of Hie'land shepherds' hearts. Ought
to spice up lambing season as well...not bad
enough that it's cold, usually wet and invari-
ably dark when the wee things opt to appear...
now it will be cold, wet and dark with wolves.
Deirdre
________________
When you reach an equilibrium in biology
you're dead.
S Viemeister
> <firs...@lastname.oc.ku> wrote:
>> Cory Bhreckan wrote:
>>> La N wrote:
>>>> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090720134527.htm
>>>
>>>
>> Interesting that there is no mention of sheep in the article, only deer.
>>
> The sheep farmers are too busy moaning about sea eagles ATM :-
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article4813644.ece
One of my Sutherland cousins has lost a few lambs to the eagles - but
only a few, nothing like what the Gairloch folk are claiming.
conwaycaine
"S Viemeister" <firs...@lastname.oc.ku> wrote in message
news:7ck7i5F...@mid.individual.net...
I'd vote for sheepies.
True Scottish wolfs should have no problem catching them
Deirdre Sholto Douglas
> Wolves don't generally like livestock growers any better than
> livestock growers like wolves and will generally avoid them.
Heretofore there's been no reason to
have "livestock growers" (farmers or
shepherds in my world :-)) remain with
the flocks...most sheep are set out to
graze unattended and are only actively
herded when they're being moved bet-
ween pastures.
> Wolves
> are generally shy and will stay away from people if there is
> sufficient range for them to do so.
See above...the days of a shepherd with
a crook out there protecting the animals
is a thing of the past. Why wouldn't
it be? There's no need for human pro-
tection in the absence of predators.
> If deer are really near the
> carrying capacity of the land, as the article says, I wouldn't expect
> a farmer to see wolves much
I wouldn't expect him to see the creatures
either...only their work in the form of
gnawed carcasses. Canines worrying sheep
have been a problem forever, Fred...have
you ever seen the damage a domestic (sup-
posedly trained) dog can do to a flock of
sheep? Especially when the ewes are in
lamb? It's not pretty and that's a ruddy
_dog_. It will be exponentially worse with
wolves...they can't be called off or con-
trolled.
> and I would also expect that the deer
> would be doing more damage to the land (and thereby the sheep) than a
> few wolves are going to do.
The wolf only needs to bring down one sheep
to discover they don't put up much fight,
don't have antlers and tire fairly quickly
to swear off deer forever. Wolves are pre-
dators of opportunity...and they _will_ take
the path of least resistance and make no
apology for it.
> It's the same way we treat human 'wolves'. There is a need for some,
> but they need to be kept within the rules (for wolves) and not allowed
> to prey on the sheep(le).
There used to be something called the "coun-
try code" which basically stated if you don't
control your dog and it gets among the sheep,
you may expect it to be shot. Release wolves
into areas where sheep predominate and I ex-
pect some long guns will suddenly find them-
selves being cleaned.
Deirdre
________________
No trees were killed in the creation of this
message, however, many electrons were terribly
inconvenienced.
Nebulous
"Fred J. McCall" <fjmc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:mina65dakbmefpsd2...@4ax.com...
> Deirdre Sholto Douglas <finch.e...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> :Fred J. McCall wrote:
> :
> :> Wolves don't generally like livestock growers any better than
> :> livestock growers like wolves and will generally avoid them.
> :
> :Heretofore there's been no reason to
> :have "livestock growers" (farmers or
> :shepherds in my world :-)) remain with
> :the flocks...most sheep are set out to
> :graze unattended and are only actively
> :herded when they're being moved bet-
> :ween pastures.
>
> They don't have to 'remain with them', Deirdre. They just have to be
> around very occasionally. That whole 'sense of smell' thing that
> canines have going for them, you know.
I don't think you are getting just how alone and self-sufficient sheep are
on Scottish hill farms Fred. Human beings may look over the land
occasionally- nowadays most likely on quad bikes, but the sheep are able to
move freely over huge skelps of land and sometimes would not see a human for
weeks. Many of the trails deer use would have more smell and presence of
humans than many places where the sheep are.
Having said that I would be in favour of a limited experiment - possibly on
an island as suggested in that article.
Neb
S Viemeister
>
> There used to be something called the "coun-
> try code" which basically stated if you don't
> control your dog and it gets among the sheep,
> you may expect it to be shot.
There are notices to that effect, posted around Tongue and Melness.
S Viemeister
wolves on his land. Of course, he'd need to have sturdy fencing all
around, and limit public access to the land...
Deirdre Sholto Douglas
> :
> :> Wolves don't generally like livestock growers any better than
> :> livestock growers like wolves and will generally avoid them.
> :
> :Heretofore there's been no reason to
> :have "livestock growers" (farmers or
> :shepherds in my world :-)) remain with
> :the flocks...most sheep are set out to
> :graze unattended and are only actively
> :herded when they're being moved bet-
> :ween pastures.
>
> They don't have to 'remain with them', Deirdre. They just have to be
> around very occasionally. That whole 'sense of smell' thing that
> canines have going for them, you know.
But people aren't around even "occasionally"...
sheep in Scotland are put to pasture and left
there, unaccompanied, until it's time to move
them (to a different pasture, dip, market or
shearing shed) and it might be weeks before
anyone checks up on them with anything other
than binoculars (if that).
> :See above...the days of a shepherd with
> :a crook out there protecting the animals
> :is a thing of the past. Why wouldn't
> :it be? There's no need for human pro-
> :tection in the absence of predators.
>
> See above. Humans don't have to be *right there*. They just have to
> have been around.
There won't be a human scent to detract a
predator, only the scent of fresh mutton on
the hoof. Any human scent will be gone within
days of a visit...rain, doncha know? Sheep
in Scotland are _not_ shepherded...they're
pretty much left to their own devices.
> Actually, all the numbers indicate that domestic dogs are MUCH harder
> on livestock than wolves are. I'd rather face wolves than feral dogs.
I"m not referring to feral dogs, Fred, I'm
referring to pet dogs that ignorant twits
allow off their leads while hiking. One
pet dog charging a flock in lamb can flatten
the animals from shock alone, never mind
if they actually catch one (because if they
do, all they'll do is savage it, most pet
dogs don't know how to kill).
> :The wolf only needs to bring down one sheep
> :to discover they don't put up much fight,
> :don't have antlers and tire fairly quickly
> :to swear off deer forever. Wolves are pre-
> :dators of opportunity...and they _will_ take
> :the path of least resistance and make no
> :apology for it.
> :
>
> But given a choice between hanging around where people are and going
> somewhere else, they'll generally opt for somewhere else.
People _aren't_, Fred. Sheep on Highland
estates are alone much of the time.
> Deirdre, I live where there are all kinds of predators about;
> everything from coyotes up through mountain lions and bears. We'll
> occasionally see the smaller stuff like coyotes and lynxes down here
> on the edges of where people live, but everything else stays away
> unless there's a fire.
Scotland is not, by a long shot, Arizona...
you can't compare the two except to say
they're both on the same planet and both
are populated with other than their original
inhabitants.
> The danger and damage to livestock from wolves is just vastly
> overrated by most people.
In the US, perhaps...but you can't say the
same for the UK. There have been no wolves
in Scotland for a very long time, so there's
no way to even begin to extrapolate what
their impact on domestic livestock may be.
> And that will no doubt occur whether or not a single sheep is harmed
> by a wolf.
It should have happened long before now and
the guns should have been pointed at the
ruddy deer. Whatever happened to stalking
holidays? They used to be fairly common when
I was young...and they used to represent a
form of fairly steady income for Big Houses
with limited exchequers and unlimited ex-
penses.
(I'm almost afraid to ask, but is 12 August
still the start of grouse season or has that
fallen by the wayside also?)
Deirdre
________________
The way to deal with predators is to taste
terrible.
La N
"S Viemeister" <firs...@lastname.oc.ku> wrote in message
> Deirdre Sholto Douglas wrote:
>>
>> There used to be something called the "coun-
>> try code" which basically stated if you don't
>> control your dog and it gets among the sheep,
>> you may expect it to be shot.
>
> There are notices to that effect, posted around Tongue and Melness.
>
In Saskatchewan, where best friends have bought a small farm, people are
able to shoot wild boars at will if they enter their property. Evidently in
the 1980s some farmers thought to import wild boars to raise for sale as
food to sell locally or to export. Some escaped, they mate like crazy, and
there are tons of the feral animals terrorizing farmers and livestock.
killing and eating everything in their path and destroying property.
- nilita
S Viemeister
to Scotland. Bears and lions, next?
Nebulous
"S Viemeister" <firs...@lastname.oc.ku> wrote in message
I met a friend of a friend who paid �1000 to go hunting wild boar in France.
On top of that he had to pay a huge amount for the Boar once he finally
managed to shoot one.
European Brown bears have already been spoken about, in fact some people
seem to regard them as less controversial than wolves.
Neb
Nebulous
"Deirdre Sholto Douglas" <finch.e...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:7clvgsF...@mid.individual.net...
>>
> It should have happened long before now and
> the guns should have been pointed at the
> ruddy deer. Whatever happened to stalking
> holidays? They used to be fairly common when
> I was young...and they used to represent a
> form of fairly steady income for Big Houses
> with limited exchequers and unlimited ex-
> penses.
>
> (I'm almost afraid to ask, but is 12 August
> still the start of grouse season or has that
> fallen by the wayside also?)
"Stands the Church clock at ten to three?
And is there honey still for tea?"
One local estate, (Mar Lodge) run by The National Trust has taken a very
aggressive stance with deer and has been culling them very enthusiastically
to preserve the Caledonian Pine Forest. It still raises money from stalking
though, and sees that as a valuable source of income, though it believes in
lower stocking levels than just about anyone else.
Tourist based businesses in the area have been complaining that visitors go
home disappointed because they do not get to see deer.
Yes of course the glorious 12th is still celebrated. Grouse have had some
hard years in the not so distant past, with poor supply, but I think they
have had a mini-revival recently and seem to be doing a bit better.
Neb
conwaycaine
"S Viemeister" <firs...@lastname.oc.ku> wrote in message
Irishmen perhaps?
Deirdre Sholto Douglas
> "Deirdre Sholto Douglas" <finch.e...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:7clvgsF...@mid.individual.net...
>> It should have happened long before now and
>> the guns should have been pointed at the
>> ruddy deer. Whatever happened to stalking
>> holidays? They used to be fairly common when
>> I was young...and they used to represent a
>> form of fairly steady income for Big Houses
>> with limited exchequers and unlimited ex-
>> penses.
>>
>> (I'm almost afraid to ask, but is 12 August
>> still the start of grouse season or has that
>> fallen by the wayside also?)
>
> "Stands the Church clock at ten to three?
> And is there honey still for tea?"
>
> One local estate, (Mar Lodge) run by The National Trust has taken a very
> aggressive stance with deer and has been culling them very enthusiastically
> to preserve the Caledonian Pine Forest. It still raises money from stalking
> though, and sees that as a valuable source of income, though it believes in
> lower stocking levels than just about anyone else.
They're probably correct with the low stocking
levels...it's doesn't take much or long for
deer to overrun an ecosystem. Mind you, pine
forest venison isn't quite to my taste...I
don't like what, to me, is a resin-y after-
taste. This forests around here are constantly
being culled of white-tail deer...with the
meat usually going to the food bank. Once a
year they let the bow hunters loose on them,
but the rest of the time, it's the forest
gameskeepers picking them off with rifles...
a Good Thing, too...forests look better with-
out clearly delineated browse lines.
> Tourist based businesses in the area have been complaining that visitors go
> home disappointed because they do not get to see deer.
That's what zoos are for.
> Yes of course the glorious 12th is still celebrated. Grouse have had some
> hard years in the not so distant past, with poor supply, but I think they
> have had a mini-revival recently and seem to be doing a bit better.
That's nice to hear...I've not tasted a proper
grouse in longer than I care to remember. :-(
Deirdre
________________
Murphy's Law of Microbes: Under the most rigorously
controlled conditions of pressure, temperature,
volume, humidity and other variables, the organism
will do as it damned well pleases.
Cory Bhreckan
Take the A82 from Glasgow, turn left down Glen Etive, just before Glen
Coe, and continue for about 12 miles, almost to Loch Etive. There are
hundreds of deer, drive slowly.
>
>> Yes of course the glorious 12th is still celebrated. Grouse have had
>> some hard years in the not so distant past, with poor supply, but I
>> think they have had a mini-revival recently and seem to be doing a bit
>> better.
>
> That's nice to hear...I've not tasted a proper
> grouse in longer than I care to remember. :-(
>
> Deirdre
>
> ________________
> Murphy's Law of Microbes: Under the most rigorously
> controlled conditions of pressure, temperature,
> volume, humidity and other variables, the organism
> will do as it damned well pleases.
S Viemeister
Ian Smith
then blurted oot this wisdom:
Well I, for one, would welcome the return of the wild haggis. This
artificial stuff made up by the local butcher just isn't the same...
La N
"Ian Smith" <ianin...@btinternet.naespam.com> wrote in message
news:4a661837$0$14997$776...@unlimited.newshosting.com...
There is a history of cannibalism in Scotland, no?
- nilita
S Viemeister
La N
"S Viemeister" <firs...@lastname.oc.ku> wrote in message
Is he around? Again?
- nilita
S Viemeister
La N
"S Viemeister" <firs...@lastname.oc.ku> wrote in message
So the s.c.s. legend goes ...;p
btw, I heard Sawney liked to "chew the fat". I guess they didn't have
Lipitor in those days.
- nilita
The Phantom Piper
>
> There is a history of cannibalism in Scotland, no?
Ah, memories...
*Burp*,
The Phantom Piper
The Phantom Piper
>
> The late Sawney Beane can tell you about that.
But he likely won't.
(I'm still stuck with these Roddie-the-Proddie MacDonald
Bonfire-Night-Special Sausages I can't get rid of!)
Rearranging Inventory,
The Phantom Piper
The Phantom Piper
>
> btw, I heard Sawney liked to "chew the fat".
I'm more of a Jack Sprat sort m'self; that
must be the missus you're thinking of.
With Empty Pickling-Vats,
The Phantom Piper
deem...@aol.com
> La N wrote:
That would be a really, really stupid idea.
,
deem...@aol.com
> "S Viemeister" <firstn...@lastname.oc.ku> wrote in message
Wild boars are considered vermin....which means it's always open
season...in many places. When my son was stationed at Lackland AFB in
Texas, they were allowed to hunt them on the base any weekend night
that the moon was up.
La N
My daughter and I used to have lots of different pets. One that I refused
to get was one that my daughter pestered me about for years - A vietnamese
potbellied pig. We would go and visit friends who had some, and I got
knocked down more than enough times by them to realize these babies grow way
big. Way too big for our then small house.
- nilita
deem...@aol.com
> "Nebulous" <jw...@pigtail.com> wrote:
>
> :
> :European Brown bears have already been spoken about, in fact some people
> :seem to regard them as less controversial than wolves.
>
> Actually for most people they probably are. Being omnivores they're
> even less likely to bother the sheepies than wolves are. They only
> really start going after red meat in the autumn.
>
> Of course, they're likely to play hell with orchards, gardens, and
> garbage cans. They tend not to be as shy of people as wolves are.
>
Plus, they're "cute" and idiots feed them.
The Phantom Piper
wrote:
>
> Well I, for one, would welcome the return of the wild haggis.
So fast they are, on the bens, running up
anti-clockwise on their many wee feet...
Looking For My Old Haggis-Sack
And Whacking-Stick,
The Phantom Piper
Jellore
> "S Viemeister" <firstn...@lastname.oc.ku> wrote in message
"Pig shooting" is almost a national pastime here in Australia. Clubs
have own their magazines etc etc. You can watch the "good ol boys"
leave home every Friday in their utes, eskies and dogs for a weekend
of shooting. No one bats an eyelid.
deem...@aol.com
deem...@aol.com
Speaking of bears, this is one zookeeper who'd better hope bears
don't have long memories......
http://poststuff4.entensity.net/071709/flash.php?media=bear.flv
La N
<deem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:c4e64ab6-b485-49eb...@32g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
Here you go.....
http://www.boarhuntermagazine.com/
***********************************
And from Canada, specifically one of Cory's favourite stomping grounds,
Alberta:
http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/01/14/kill-boars-for-cash/
Actually, they're kind of cute. I wonder if they'd make good pets.
- nilita
deem...@aol.com
> <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
Meet one on the trail.....they really are cute little buggers :-)
La N
Well, I'm thinking you'd have to raise them from babyhood to be nice ... :)
deem...@aol.com
Pigs make pretty good pets. They're very smart, clean, and
affectionate. One little problem is their size....even pot-bellies can
weigh over 200 lbs while regular pigs can top 1000 lbs.....not really
lap-sized...or even sofa-sized.
La N
Maybe they'd make good guard pigs. Or in times of famine ....
- nilita
deem...@aol.com
Mmmmmmm...bacon! And ham!
Lesley Robertson
news:7cm3kiF...@mid.individual.net...
> There are folk who wish to re-introduce wild boars, as well as
> wolves, to Scotland. Bears and lions, next?
It would add a certain frisson to Munro bagging!
Lesley Robertson
Deirdre Sholto Douglas
> Speaking of bears, this is one zookeeper who'd better hope bears
> don't have long memories......
>
> http://poststuff4.entensity.net/071709/flash.php?media=bear.flv
What the f*** is wrong with those people?
And why do they think terrorising an infant,
regardless of species, is acceptable?
Deirdre
________________
Some people are like Don Quayle but
without the intellect.
La N
This is one of the cruelest stunts I have ever seen. The audience actually
thinks it's hilarious. This sort of thing makes me feel compassion for
PETA. Sheesh.
- nilita
conwaycaine
"S Viemeister" <firs...@lastname.oc.ku> wrote in message
> conwaycaine wrote:
>> "S Viemeister" <firs...@lastname.oc.ku> wrote in message
>> news:7cm3kiF...@mid.individual.net...
>>>> "S Viemeister" <firs...@lastname.oc.ku> wrote in message
>>>>> Deirdre Sholto Douglas wrote:
>>>>>> There used to be something called the "coun-
>>>>>> try code" which basically stated if you don't
>>>>>> control your dog and it gets among the sheep,
>>>>>> you may expect it to be shot.
>>>>> There are notices to that effect, posted around Tongue and Melness.
>>>>>
>>>> In Saskatchewan, where best friends have bought a small farm, people
>>>> are able to shoot wild boars at will if they enter their property.
>>>> Evidently in the 1980s some farmers thought to import wild boars to
>>>> raise for sale as food to sell locally or to export. Some escaped,
>>>> they mate like crazy, and there are tons of the feral animals
>>>> terrorizing farmers and livestock. killing and eating everything in
>>>> their path and destroying property.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> to Scotland. Bears and lions, next?
>>
> We already have loads of Irishmen...
And the bears, boars, lions, and wolves still want to come to Scotland?
conwaycaine
"Ian Smith" <ianin...@btinternet.naespam.com> wrote in message
news:4a661837$0$14997$776...@unlimited.newshosting.com...
> On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 14:38:30 -0400, S Viemeister wis temporarily glaikit
>>> Irishmen perhaps?
>>>
>>>
>> We already have loads of Irishmen...
>
> Well I, for one, would welcome the return of the wild haggis. This
> artificial stuff made up by the local butcher just isn't the same...
The last I heard, the Dublin Zoological Gardens had a mating pair.
Time to restock then..........
conwaycaine
"La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ZNo9m.37584$PH1.5830@edtnps82...
>>>> "S Viemeister" <firs...@lastname.oc.ku> wrote in message
>>>>>> There are folk who wish to re-introduce wild boars, as well as
>>>>>> wolves,
>>>>> to Scotland. Bears and lions, next?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> We already have loads of Irishmen...
>>
>> Well I, for one, would welcome the return of the wild haggis. This
>> artificial stuff made up by the local butcher just isn't the same...
>
Well, yes.
Over the centuries quite a number of visiting *nglishmen have been devoured.
conwaycaine
"Fred J. McCall" <fjmc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:jfmc65l5ftdrp61en...@4ax.com...
>S Viemeister <firs...@lastname.oc.ku> wrote:
> :conwaycaine wrote:
> :>> There are folk who wish to re-introduce wild boars, as well as wolves,
> :>> Scotland. Bears and lions, next?
> :>
> :> Irishmen perhaps?
> :>
> :
> :We already have loads of Irishmen...
>
> But when are they going to let us start hunting them to cull the herd?
More to fear, when are they going to start hunting you?
conwaycaine
<deem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:28ac9dd2-fb89-4f67...@o7g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
Wild boars are considered vermin....which means it's always open
season...in many places. When my son was stationed at Lackland AFB in
Texas, they were allowed to hunt them on the base any weekend night
that the moon was up.
*******
I thought when the moon was full, Air Horse people turned hairy and went out
to hunt peoples.......
deem...@aol.com
> In article
> <03d1f4c0-e811-418c-b344-0a8e2572b...@r2g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
> "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> writes
>
>
>
> >On Jul 21, 11:02 am, S Viemeister <firstn...@lastname.oc.ku> wrote:
> >> La N wrote:
> >> >news:7clr8fF...@mid.individual.net...
> >> >> Deirdre Sholto Douglas wrote:
> >> >>> There used to be something called the "coun-
> >> >>> try code" which basically stated if you don't
> >> >>> control your dog and it gets among the sheep,
> >> >>> you may expect it to be shot.
> >> >> There are notices to that effect, posted around Tongue and Melness.
>
> >> > In Saskatchewan, where best friends have bought a small farm, people are
> >> > able to shoot wild boars at will if they enter their property.
> >> > Evidently in
> >> > the 1980s some farmers thought to import wild boars to raise for sale as
> >> > food to sell locally or to export. Some escaped, they mate like crazy, and
> >> > there are tons of the feral animals terrorizing farmers and livestock.
> >> > killing and eating everything in their path and destroying property.
>
>
>
> There are already a few hundred wild boar living in woodlands in the
> south of England.
>
> --
> Malcolm-
Wild or feral?
La N
> In article
> > There's no difference in how they are living or behaving. They have
> escaped from farm enclosures and are living as wild animals so you
> could call them feral. However, feral means "belonging to or forming
> a wild population ultimately descended from individuals which escaped
> from captivity or domestication; born of such an animal in the wild."
A few years ago I saw a documentary on TV related to feral children - kids
who had been abandoned and allegedly raised by animals. It was quite
chilling, IIRC.
- nilita
deem...@aol.com
> escaped from farm enclosures and are living as wild animals so you could
> call them feral. However, feral means "belonging to or forming a wild
> population ultimately descended from individuals which escaped from
> captivity or domestication; born of such an animal in the wild."
>
> Malcolm
The difference is a wild population usually fits into the
environment while a feral population doesn't. Pigs turn feral very
quickly.....by that I mean they take on characteristics of their wild
cousins.
deem...@aol.com
> "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> :
> : The difference is a wild population usually fits into the
> :environment while a feral population doesn't. Pigs turn feral very
> :quickly.....by that I mean they take on characteristics of their wild
> :cousins.
>
> Feral animals are generally also more dangerous than their wild
> relatives.
>
True, because they have less fear of people.
The Phantom Piper
>
> What's that got to do with cannibalism?
*/8~D 10/10!
Giving Credit Where Due,
The Phantom Piper
conwaycaine
> "conwaycaine" <conwa...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> :
> :"La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> :news:ZNo9m.37584$PH1.5830@edtnps82...
> :>
> :> There is a history of cannibalism in Scotland, no?
> :>
> :
> :Well, yes.
> :Over the centuries quite a number of visiting *nglishmen have been
> devoured.
>
> What's that got to do with cannibalism?
True.
Eating *nglishmen can hardly be said to constitute an act of cannibalism....
Deirdre Sholto Douglas
> Wolves are well known to only very rarely attack humans. Packs of feral
> dogs, however, are indeed known to attack humans but they do it for food
> and certainly not for "fun".
Then you need to meet some of the feral dog
packs which used to (and may still) run about
Albuquerque...they ate out of dumpsters so
humans certainly _weren't_ food...they attacked
to assert territorial dominance.
Deirdre
________________
The universe is neither benign nor hostile,
merely indifferent.
Ian Smith
blurted oot this wisdom:
> "Ian Smith" <ianin...@btinternet.naespam.com> wrote in message
> news:4a661837$0$14997$776...@unlimited.newshosting.com...
>> On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 14:38:30 -0400, S Viemeister wis temporarily
>> glaikit then blurted oot this wisdom:
>>
>>> conwaycaine wrote:
>>>> "S Viemeister" <firs...@lastname.oc.ku> wrote in message
>>>> news:7cm3kiF...@mid.individual.net...
>>>>> La N wrote:
>>>>>> "S Viemeister" <firs...@lastname.oc.ku> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:7clr8fF...@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>>> Deirdre Sholto Douglas wrote:
>>>>>>>> There used to be something called the "coun- try code" which
>>>>>>>> basically stated if you don't control your dog and it gets among
>>>>>>>> the sheep, you may expect it to be shot.
>>>>>>> There are notices to that effect, posted around Tongue and
>>>>>>> Melness.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> In Saskatchewan, where best friends have bought a small farm,
>>>>>> people are able to shoot wild boars at will if they enter their
>>>>>> property. Evidently in the 1980s some farmers thought to import
>>>>>> wild boars to raise for sale as food to sell locally or to export.
>>>>>> Some escaped, they mate like crazy, and there are tons of the feral
>>>>>> animals terrorizing farmers and livestock. killing and eating
>>>>>> everything in their path and destroying property.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> There are folk who wish to re-introduce wild boars, as well as
>>>>> wolves, to Scotland. Bears and lions, next?
>>>>
>>>> Irishmen perhaps?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> We already have loads of Irishmen...
>>
>> Well I, for one, would welcome the return of the wild haggis. This
>> artificial stuff made up by the local butcher just isn't the same...
>
> There is a history of cannibalism in Scotland, no?
>
> - nilita
Didn't the Picts eat a Roman legion, or something like that? Now where
did I read that story....
--
My dynamic calendar - http://www.1r5.net
Charles Ellson
I believe they are technically homo sapiens.
conwaycaine
> Ian Smith <ianin...@btinternet.naespam.com> wrote:
> :
> :Didn't the Picts eat a Roman legion, or something like that? Now where
> :did I read that story....
>
> So what's wrong with eating Italian?
Too much garlic..........
conwaycaine
"Charles Ellson" <cha...@ellson.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:5tfh65dnqsl6i2ftc...@4ax.com...
Technically, perhaps.
But I had always heard they were more closely akin to Homo NoneToo Erectus.
deem...@aol.com
> In article <7cro9gF28jp5...@mid.individual.net>, Deirdre Sholto Douglas
> <finch.enter...@sbcglobal.net> writes>Malcolm wrote:
>
> >> Wolves are well known to only very rarely attack humans. Packs of
> >>feral dogs, however, are indeed known to attack humans but they do it
> >>for food and certainly not for "fun".
>
> >Then you need to meet some of the feral dog
> >packs which used to (and may still) run about
> >Albuquerque...they ate out of dumpsters so
> >humans certainly _weren't_ food...they attacked
> >to assert territorial dominance.
>
> eating. Anyway, I've added territory as one of a number of reasons in a
> later response to suggestions that it is because of "bad temper" or
> simply because they can see you, which are animal behavioural nonsense.
>
> --
> Malcolm
I'd say that an animal which is angry/frustrated/"in a bad
temper" is more likely to attack than one which is feeling okay.
Animals don't think the way we do, but I'm sure their emotions colo(u)
r their actions.
Deirdre Sholto Douglas
You have the additional wrinkle that you see
in some (usually smaller) dogs which have been
abused in some way also, namely "fear biting".
Our wee terrier must have had a hellish first
nine months of life (his age when he was dumped
in the field by our house) because there are
still things which, for no apparent reason,send
him into a snarling rage. Happily since he's
only six pounds and about ten inches tall,
dealing with said tantrums is as simple as
picking him up and removing him from the area...
and, to his credit, his insecurity has lessened
over time and the behaviour improved.
But imagine that same mental twist in a dog of
a more aggressive breed weighing more and running
wild. And if the fear object in question hap-
pens to be humans in general...well, then you
end up with a dog attacking for "no apparent
reason" that we can see, but an emotional one
which is well known to it, don't you?
Deirdre
________________
ERROR #0140: Nonexistent Error. This cannot
be happening.
La N
"Malcolm" <Mal...@indaal.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8AFX5DKI...@indaal.demon.co.uk...
>
> >>
> Nonsense. "Bullies" as you call them are merely dominant animals or birds
> exerting their dominance within a pack. There is no evidence that they
> "enjoy" it, that is being anthropomorphic.
>
I admit that I'm someone who anthropomorphises (is that a word?) animals,
and that is what makes it so hard for me to eat them. Apart from that, I
don't think - unless one is an animal psychic - that there is a definitive
answer to the motivation behind animal behaviour. Ergo, the ongoing debate.
- nilita, invoking Dr. Doolittle:
If we could talk to the animals, just imagine it
Chatting to a chimp in chimpanzee
Imagine talking to a tiger, chatting to a cheetah
What a neat achievement that would be.
deem...@aol.com
> "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> writes
> feeling threatened, are having their territory invaded, etc.
>
> --
> Malcolm
Agreed.....but that doesn't really help the recipient of their,
uh, favors.
deem...@aol.com
> console yourself with the thought that they are not doing it just
> because they don't like you.
>
> --
> Malcolm
Works for me :-)
La N
IOW, don't take it personally. That advice should work equally well on
Usenet ...:)
- nilita