Brindealbhadh is brindealbhadair?
Roan
of the word "brėgh", I came across the following:
brindealbhadair s.m. Painter, Sculptor
brindealbhadh s.m. Painting, sculpture
Both of these words are marked as obsolete and no longer in use. Was
brindealbhadair just replaced by the shorter version "dealbhadair"
and/or the Anglacized "peantair"?
As an artist, I really don't know what word I should really use. As a
pastelist (one who paints in pastel) I'm at a total loss to explain my
medium -- except to use the word "cailc" which isn't pastel, really.
Does anyone know of a word for "pigment" that I could substitute?
Saying that I "paint with pigments" is far closer than "cailc
dealbhadair". Ugh.
--
Mar sin leibh an-drāsda,
Roan
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Roan Studio & Gallery
original artwork and web design services
Herndon, VA USA
--
Mar sin leibh an-drāsda,
Roan
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Roan Studio & Gallery
original artwork and web design services
Herndon, VA USA
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Bob Peffers
"Roan" <eil...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:90gbpe$n3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Whilst searching through my Dwelly's for some definitions and examples
>
>
> brindealbhadair s.m. Painter, Sculptor
> brindealbhadh s.m. Painting, sculpture
>
> Both of these words are marked as obsolete and no longer in use. Was
> brindealbhadair just replaced by the shorter version "dealbhadair"
> and/or the Anglacized "peantair"?
>
> As an artist, I really don't know what word I should really use. As a
> pastelist (one who paints in pastel) I'm at a total loss to explain my
> medium -- except to use the word "cailc" which isn't pastel, really.
>
> Does anyone know of a word for "pigment" that I could substitute?
> Saying that I "paint with pigments" is far closer than "cailc
> dealbhadair". Ugh.
>
> --
>
> Roan
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Roan Studio & Gallery
> original artwork and web design services
> Herndon, VA USA
>
> http://RoanStudio.com
>
> --
>
> Roan
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Roan Studio & Gallery
> original artwork and web design services
> Herndon, VA USA
>
> http://RoanStudio.com
>
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
that's any use to you.
--
Auld Bob Peffers,
Web site, The Eck's Files.
http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk/
Roan
"Bob Peffers" <b...@peffers50.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> Frae Auld Bob Peffers:There was the Scottish school of, *colourists*.
If
> that's any use to you.
Tapadh liebh, a' chairaid:
Hrm, dunno. Would you be able to elaborate on that, Bob? Was this an
actual school? A label, like "impressionists" that might have been used
to refer to painters such as Manet, Monet and Degas?
If it was a school, do you know of any sites where can I read more
about it?
--
Mar sin leibh an-drąsda,
Magnus Paterson
Roan <eil...@spamcop.net>
> Hrm, dunno. Would you be able to elaborate on that, Bob? Was this an
> actual school? A label, like "impressionists" that might have been used
> to refer to painters such as Manet, Monet and Degas?
>
> If it was a school, do you know of any sites where can I read more
> about it?
www.royalacademy.org.uk/p-ex-scot.htm
Cheers,
Magnus
Ian O. Morrison
"Magnus Paterson" <m...@roe.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> Roan <eil...@spamcop.net>
>
> > Hrm, dunno. Would you be able to elaborate on that, Bob? Was this an
> > actual school? A label, like "impressionists" that might have been
used
> > to refer to painters such as Manet, Monet and Degas?
> >
> > If it was a school, do you know of any sites where can I read more
> > about it?
>
The Scottish Colourists exhibition is now on at the Dean Gallery in
Edinburgh. A couple of typical works - one by J D Fergusson and one by
Samuel Peploe can be seen at
http://www.natgalscot.ac.uk
The Scottish Colourists were four talented artists - Fergusson, Peploe,
Cadell and Hunter (I think) who hung around together for a while,
particularly in the south of France, where they started painting in
vibrant colours, as opposed to the rather gloomy tones traditional to
19th century Scottish painting. They were fairly influential,
especially in Scotland, and are well respected (especially Fergusson)
worldwide. However, I don't think any of them particularly worked in
pastels. Fergusson is commemorated by a whole gallery in his name in
Perth, and the University of Stirling has a particularly fine
collection of his works as well.
--
Ian O. Morrison
http://homestead.deja.com/user.ian_o_morrison/index.html
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt
Niall
On Mon, 04 Dec 2000 15:04:20 GMT, Roan <eil...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>Both of these words are marked as obsolete and no longer in use. Was
>brindealbhadair just replaced by the shorter version "dealbhadair"
>and/or the Anglacized "peantair"?
I think so. I've never heard of "brindealbhadair".
>As an artist, I really don't know what word I should really use. As a
>pastelist (one who paints in pastel) I'm at a total loss to explain my
>medium -- except to use the word "cailc" which isn't pastel, really.
>Does anyone know of a word for "pigment" that I could substitute?
The word "dath" pretty much covers colour although "lì" means
"gloss" and "tuar" means hue or aspect or complexion. That's as much
variety in the chromatic sphere as I'm familiar with. I don't think a
Gaelic word exists for "pastel" so there's nothing wrong with doing
what the English-speakers do and just adopting the word as it is.
Niall
--
"o 's àlainn an t-àite"
Nick-Durie
Niall <all...@siudaig.org> wrote in message
news:3a2cbab7...@news1.ns.sympatico.ca...
Or doing what Germans and Icelanders do and actually making a word for
yourself. Hence the German "Suchrakete" (missiles which seek out enemy
planes) or "Fernspreche" (a telephone) or the Scots "stoorsooker" (vacuum
cleaner; 'hoover')
Roan
"Nick-Durie" <Nick-...@aladdinscave.net> wrote:
> Or doing what Germans and Icelanders do and actually making a word for
> yourself. Hence the German "Suchrakete" (missiles which seek out
enemy
> planes) or "Fernspreche" (a telephone) or the Scots "stoorsooker"
(vacuum
> cleaner; 'hoover')
My thoughts exactly. Pastels, professional ones at least, do not
contain large quantities of chalk. As a matter of fact, the best pastel
brands do not contain chalk at all. They are made of pigments, gum
binder and water. Rolled and allowed to air-dry. So, we have pigments,
or colour, powder
At the risk of incurring the wrath of the "Poileas Gàidhlig", I open
for discussion the following proposals:
Working with the English words: colour, stick, powder
bioran-lìth (stick-colour)
fùdar-lìth (powder-colour)
and so forth. Suggestions? Would dath be better? My dictionaries, and
the ACGA website give "lìth" instead of "lì" for colour.
--
Mar sin leibh an-dràsda,
Roan
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Roan Studio & Gallery
original artwork and web design services
Herndon, VA USA
Roan
Roan
Ian O. Morrison <ian_o_m...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> The Scottish Colourists were four talented artists - Fergusson,
Peploe,
> Cadell and Hunter (I think) who hung around together for a while,
> particularly in the south of France, where they started painting in
> vibrant colours, as opposed to the rather gloomy tones traditional to
> 19th century Scottish painting. They were fairly influential,
> especially in Scotland, and are well respected (especially Fergusson)
> worldwide. However, I don't think any of them particularly worked in
> pastels. Fergusson is commemorated by a whole gallery in his name in
> Perth, and the University of Stirling has a particularly fine
> collection of his works as well.
Tapadh leibh!
I'm going to have to read up on these fellas.
Roan
all...@siudaig.org (Niall) wrote:
> The word "dath" pretty much covers colour although "lì" means
> "gloss" and "tuar" means hue or aspect or complexion. That's as much
> variety in the chromatic sphere as I'm familiar with. I don't think a
> Gaelic word exists for "pastel" so there's nothing wrong with doing
> what the English-speakers do and just adopting the word as it is.
>
Ack. Well, personally I think Gaelic has enough English words. We need
more Gaelic!
Thanks though!
--
Mar sin leibh an-dràsda,
Roan
Stephen Copinger
Roan wrote in message <90o8pv$f2q$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <3a2cbab7...@news1.ns.sympatico.ca>,
> all...@siudaig.org (Niall) wrote:
>> The word "dath" pretty much covers colour although "lì" means
>> "gloss" and "tuar" means hue or aspect or complexion. That's as much
>> variety in the chromatic sphere as I'm familiar with. I don't think a
>> Gaelic word exists for "pastel" so there's nothing wrong with doing
>> what the English-speakers do and just adopting the word as it is.
>>
>> Niall
>
>Ack. Well, personally I think Gaelic has enough English words. We need
>more Gaelic!
>
"pastail"?
Beannachd leibh
Stephen
Chic McGregor
>In article <3a2cbab7...@news1.ns.sympatico.ca>,
> all...@siudaig.org (Niall) wrote:
>> The word "dath" pretty much covers colour although "lì" means
>> "gloss" and "tuar" means hue or aspect or complexion. That's as much
>> variety in the chromatic sphere as I'm familiar with. I don't think a
>> Gaelic word exists for "pastel" so there's nothing wrong with doing
>> what the English-speakers do and just adopting the word as it is.
>>
>> Niall
>
>Ack. Well, personally I think Gaelic has enough English words. We need
>more Gaelic!
>
>Thanks though!
>
>
>--
>Mar sin leibh an-dràsda,
>
I think the point the person was making was that 'pastel' isn't
English.
regards
chic
Micheil
>Whilst searching through my Dwelly's for some definitions and examples
>of the word "brěgh", I came across the following:
>
>
>brindealbhadair s.m. Painter, Sculptor
>brindealbhadh s.m. Painting, sculpture
>
>Both of these words are marked as obsolete and no longer in use. Was
>brindealbhadair just replaced by the shorter version "dealbhadair"
>and/or the Anglacized "peantair"?
>
>As an artist, I really don't know what word I should really use. As a
>pastelist (one who paints in pastel) I'm at a total loss to explain my
>medium -- except to use the word "cailc" which isn't pastel, really.
>
>Does anyone know of a word for "pigment" that I could substitute?
>Saying that I "paint with pigments" is far closer than "cailc
>dealbhadair". Ugh.
>
>--
>Mar sin leibh an-drŕsda,
>
>Roan
Dath - pigment, colour, dye, tinge.
Picture - dealbh
Picture painter - fear-dealbhe (masc)
Picture painter - ban-dealbhair (fem)
(Note that "ban" does not lenite words starting with "d".)
I don't know by your name whether you are a man or a woman, so I've
given the title for both sexes, just in case.
'S e 'ur beatha.
- měcheil
- innis dhomh sgéile mu 'n Thěr nan Ňg...
Roan
"Stephen Copinger" <S-Cop...@zetnet.co.bounce.uk> wrote:
> Except "pastel" is a French word (from Itallian pastello). So why not
> "pastail"?
Actually, the etymology is:
French, from Italian pastello, from Late Latin pastellus woad, from
diminutive of pasta
Note the word "woad" up there :P
--
Mar sin leibh an-drąsda,
Roan
Roan
charles....@ntlworld.com (Chic McGregor) wrote:
> I think the point the person was making was that 'pastel' isn't
> English.
Right, and my point is that we don't have to accept a word from another
language just because one doesn't exist in this one.
Pastel was originally Latin (pastellus) then Italian (pastello), not
French. I don't see the French using the Latin or Italian words. They
made up their own derivative.
Roan
"Stephen Copinger" <S-Cop...@zetnet.co.bounce.uk> wrote:
> Except "pastel" is a French word (from Itallian pastello). So why not
> "pastail"?
Good idea! Any other spelling variations?
Roan
Mic...@Ireland.com (Micheil) wrote:
> Dath - pigment, colour, dye, tinge.
> Picture - dealbh
> Picture painter - fear-dealbhe (masc)
> Picture painter - ban-dealbhair (fem)
>
> (Note that "ban" does not lenite words starting with "d".)
>
> I don't know by your name whether you are a man or a woman, so I've
> given the title for both sexes, just in case.
>
> 'S e 'ur beatha.
Hrm, thanks, but I wasn't looking for how to say "picture painter".
That could be any artist. I was looking for a specific way to
say "pastel" and/or "pastelist". Pastelist - someone who paints with
sticks of powdered pigment. Pastel - a stick of powdered pigment.
Micheil
<Nick-...@aladdinscave.net> wrote:
>
>Niall <all...@siudaig.org> wrote in message
>news:3a2cbab7...@news1.ns.sympatico.ca...
>>
>> On Mon, 04 Dec 2000 15:04:20 GMT, Roan <eil...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Both of these words are marked as obsolete and no longer in use. Was
>> >brindealbhadair just replaced by the shorter version "dealbhadair"
>> >and/or the Anglacized "peantair"?
>>
>>
>> I think so. I've never heard of "brindealbhadair".
>>
>>
>> >As an artist, I really don't know what word I should really use. As a
>> >pastelist (one who paints in pastel) I'm at a total loss to explain my
>> >medium -- except to use the word "cailc" which isn't pastel, really.
>> >Does anyone know of a word for "pigment" that I could substitute?
>>
>>
>> The word "dath" pretty much covers colour although "lě" means
>> "gloss" and "tuar" means hue or aspect or complexion. That's as much
>> variety in the chromatic sphere as I'm familiar with. I don't think a
>> Gaelic word exists for "pastel" so there's nothing wrong with doing
>> what the English-speakers do and just adopting the word as it is.
>>
>
>Or doing what Germans and Icelanders do and actually making a word for
>yourself. Hence the German "Suchrakete" (missiles which seek out enemy
>planes) or "Fernspreche" (a telephone) or the Scots "stoorsooker" (vacuum
>cleaner; 'hoover')
We do - guthan (from guth - voice) = telephone.
However, there is a subtle undercurrent here. "Fernsprecher" (note, it
ends in "r") was introduced by the Nazis to rid the language of
foreign influences. When I was in Germany you occasionally saw an
older kiosk with Fernsprecher on it, but most kiosks had reverted to
Telefon.
Dheth-dhilg (from the void?) was introduced into Gaelic for radio.
Didn't catch on; dumped and dead. Today we say Rčidio.
Or at least we did until a few weeks ago when the BBC, that arbiter of
Gaelic orthographical orthodoxy, suddenly dumped Rčidio for Radio,
while sticking with TBh for Telebhisean/television (presumably, the
Hanoi version of Tuberculosis and so ugly looking) The Irish, whose
heads are not stuck as far up the arse of Gaelic orthodoxy as are our
pundits, settled for Telefis; a much more pleasant looking word.
And why should we not settle for the commoner words in daily use.
Radio is not an English word, it's an international word now. Actually
it was imported into English quite recently; before that, radio in the
UK was "wireless" as it was in French, "Telephonie Sans Fils" or TSF
for short.
To see France (I won't mention Quebec after the email I got about my
last foray in that direction) desperately trying to invent French
phrases for words which are essentially international currency, is
like watching an old woman trying to maintain her dignity as her teeth
fall out.
I think Gaelic is a little more mature than that. Some words are slung
together by the people themselves and become the language - by far the
best barometer of a language's future in my opinion - while others are
foisted on us but never used. Some Gaelic speakers use "Carbadadhair"
(Chariot of the air) for aeroplane, but most just say "Aeroplane".
Some borrowings become so Gaelicized that they are no longer
recognizable, such as my pet hate, "Tioraidh!" (CHEE-ree, from English
"Cheerio!") which has pretty well replaced "Slan leat! - Health with
thee!" on *certain islands*. (You know who you are, bloody Trotternish
bog-trotters!) God knows what's happening on the mainland but no doubt
the rot is even more advanced there...
The fact is that languages like English are almost entirely composed
of foreign words, which is why so many of us start laughing when
people write things like, "I don't want to use the English 'pastel'."
Only nations with a fear of losing a language worry about what words
enter the language. Gaelic is going to survive, I have finally
decided, because of the North American-Gaels of Highland descent, who
feel reasonably enough that it's just as much their language as it was
their ancestors and because of the at-last! awakening of the Scottish
Gaels themselves to the fact that their language is headed down the
toilet at high speed, thanks to their curious idea that keeping it to
themselves will somehow ensure its survival; an idea so utterly devoid
of intelligent forethought that I'm embarrassed to put it in print.
Even if it doesn't it will outlive me, and after that I'm not likely
to be too bothered, being more concerned with beating out the flames,
etc.
Roan
all...@siudaig.org (Niall) wrote:
> Ach dé mu dheidhinn "caol le caol is leathann le leathann"? Sin
> an t-aobhar a dh'fheumadh sinn an cruth Gàidhealach a chur air.
Lost me on a few of the words in the last sentence -- t-aobhar? Work?
Can't find my dictionaries. And yes, what about the spelling rule?
Which is why I responded positively to the suggestion of "pastail".
--
Mar sin leibh an-dràsda,
Roan
Roan
all...@siudaig.org (Niall) wrote:
> >Ack. Well, personally I think Gaelic has enough English words. We
need
> >more Gaelic!
>
> Ciamar tha fhios agad -- a bheil Gàidhlig agad?
>If you don't speak Gaelic, how do you know?
I've spent a lot of time with my nose buried in Dwelly's and Stòrdàta
looking for words that don't seem to exist. How else?
>English has a much higher percentage of
> foreign words in it than Gaelic does, but nobody (apart from William
> Morris devotees) complains about that.
Yes, English does have a higher percentage of foreign words. So? I
really don't see what that has to do with wanting more Gaelic words and
less English. You can't use the two as a comparision, there's a VAST
difference between how many people use each of the languages.
Stòrdàta is constantly updating its database with technology words and
I see pages and pages of proposals for new words or words already in
use that haven't been "recorded". Are you saying they shouldn't bother?
That they should just use the English versions? If so, you might want
to take that up with them.
As for me, I was merely expressing my opinion, as you are entitled to
yours. I don't want nor have the time to get into a long debate about
the Gaelic language.
Roan
all...@siudaig.org (Niall) wrote:
>
> On Fri, 08 Dec 2000 04:27:08 GMT, Roan <eil...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
> >Hrm, thanks, but I wasn't looking for how to say "picture painter".
> >That could be any artist. I was looking for a specific way to
> >say "pastel" and/or "pastelist".
>
> we know nothing about?
Why does it matter and why would you assume that I'm just from VA?
Really, if you don't like the subject or my comments or can't seem to
respond without your increasing attempts to belittle me, don't read
them and don't reply.
No one is twisting your arm, Niall, and there's no justification for
what you are doing.
Nick-Durie
>
> On Thu, 07 Dec 2000 15:02:28 GMT, Roan <eil...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
> >In article <3a2cbab7...@news1.ns.sympatico.ca>,
> > all...@siudaig.org (Niall) wrote:
>
> >> Gaelic word exists for "pastel" so there's nothing wrong with doing
> >> what the English-speakers do and just adopting the word as it is.
> >>
> >
> >Ack. Well, personally I think Gaelic has enough English words. We need
> >more Gaelic!
>
>
> Ciamar tha fhios agad -- a bheil Gàidhlig agad? If you don't speak
>
> foreign words in it than Gaelic does, but nobody (apart from William
> Morris devotees) complains about that.
Speak for yourself, I bemoan this dreadful truth full often! English has
had its sound scathed by the 'borrowing' of great weakling, tasteless
Latiny or Greek words which don't fit the sound of the tongue and cannot be
readily understood unless you happen to know a French or English likeword.
For to build up my mooting, how many English speakers who fall upon words
like "omniscient" or "recumbant" can easily work out the meaning of these
words.
Nick-Durie
Micheil <Mic...@Ireland.com> wrote in message
news:3a305cbf.43058436@news...
> >>
> >> On Mon, 04 Dec 2000 15:04:20 GMT, Roan <eil...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Both of these words are marked as obsolete and no longer in use. Was
> >> >brindealbhadair just replaced by the shorter version "dealbhadair"
> >> >and/or the Anglacized "peantair"?
> >>
> >>
> >> I think so. I've never heard of "brindealbhadair".
> >>
> >>
> >> >As an artist, I really don't know what word I should really use. As a
> >> >pastelist (one who paints in pastel) I'm at a total loss to explain my
> >> >medium -- except to use the word "cailc" which isn't pastel, really.
> >> >Does anyone know of a word for "pigment" that I could substitute?
> >>
> >>
> >> The word "dath" pretty much covers colour although "lě" means
> >> "gloss" and "tuar" means hue or aspect or complexion. That's as much
> >> Gaelic word exists for "pastel" so there's nothing wrong with doing
> >> what the English-speakers do and just adopting the word as it is.
> >>
> >
> >yourself. Hence the German "Suchrakete" (missiles which seek out enemy
> >planes) or "Fernspreche" (a telephone) or the Scots "stoorsooker" (vacuum
> >cleaner; 'hoover')
>
> We do - guthan (from guth - voice) = telephone.
>
> However, there is a subtle undercurrent here. "Fernsprecher" (note, it
> ends in "r")
Sorry every time I've seen it in print it definitely had no R; not that
books on the English language have anything erudite to say about German
orthography.
was introduced by the Nazis to rid the language of
> foreign influences.
It does not invalidate the word, I still like it far better than the insipid
sound telephone, the meaning of which cannot be readily understood at a
glance. Needless to say that I can understand fernsprecher at a glance
When I was in Germany you occasionally saw an
> older kiosk with Fernsprecher on it, but most kiosks had reverted to
> Telefon.
I really don't like the German anymore than I like the English, it looks,
and therefore likely sounds, ghastly.
>
> Dheth-dhilg (from the void?) was introduced into Gaelic for radio.
> Didn't catch on; dumped and dead. Today we say Rčidio.
>
> Or at least we did until a few weeks ago when the BBC, that arbiter of
> Gaelic orthographical orthodoxy, suddenly dumped Rčidio for Radio,
> while sticking with TBh for Telebhisean/television (presumably, the
> Hanoi version of Tuberculosis and so ugly looking) The Irish, whose
> heads are not stuck as far up the arse of Gaelic orthodoxy as are our
> pundits, settled for Telefis; a much more pleasant looking word.
Does 'tele-' have any meaning in any of the Goidellic languages?
>
> And why should we not settle for the commoner words in daily use.
> Radio is not an English word, it's an international word now.
Because by the same argument then thousands upon thousands of, at present,
English words have to be regarded as Gaelic because speakers switch between
the two languages all the time.
Actually
> it was imported into English quite recently; before that, radio in the
> UK was "wireless" as it was in French, "Telephonie Sans Fils" or TSF
> for short.
I actually prefer 'wireless' or 'tranny' as these are better sounding than
the foul 'radio'.
>
> To see France (I won't mention Quebec after the email I got about my
> last foray in that direction) desperately trying to invent French
> phrases for words which are essentially international currency, is
> like watching an old woman trying to maintain her dignity as her teeth
> fall out.
Why shouldn't they finght the imposed Anglicization of their language if
they think it will harm it?
>
> I think Gaelic is a little more mature than that. Some words are slung
> together by the people themselves and become the language - by far the
> best barometer of a language's future in my opinion - while others are
> foisted on us but never used. Some Gaelic speakers use "Carbadadhair"
> (Chariot of the air) for aeroplane, but most just say "Aeroplane".
Which of course they did not string together.
>
> Some borrowings become so Gaelicized that they are no longer
> recognizable, such as my pet hate, "Tioraidh!" (CHEE-ree, from English
> "Cheerio!") which has pretty well replaced "Slan leat! - Health with
> thee!" on *certain islands*. (You know who you are, bloody Trotternish
> bog-trotters!) God knows what's happening on the mainland but no doubt
> the rot is even more advanced there...
>
> The fact is that languages like English are almost entirely composed
> of foreign words, which is why so many of us start laughing when
> people write things like, "I don't want to use the English 'pastel'."
The buildingblocks of English are Germanic, I challenge you to write a
sentence in English composed entirely of Latinate words; it cannot be done.
I do think that most of these words are completely unnecessary and are only
used because they sound 'aureate' and thereto confuse ordinary people.
>
> Only nations with a fear of losing a language worry about what words
> enter the language. Gaelic is going to survive, I have finally
> decided, because of the North American-Gaels of Highland descent, who
> feel reasonably enough that it's just as much their language as it was
> their ancestors and because of the at-last! awakening of the Scottish
> Gaels themselves to the fact that their language is headed down the
> toilet at high speed, thanks to their curious idea that keeping it to
> themselves will somehow ensure its survival; an idea so utterly devoid
> of intelligent forethought that I'm embarrassed to put it in print.
Yes, I've never understood that. It strikes me as very reminiscent of the
Scots cringe, in that speakers seem to feel ashamed of their own tongue, or
am I barking up the wrong tree?
> Even if it doesn't it will outlive me, and after that I'm not likely
> to be too bothered, being more concerned with beating out the flames,
> etc.
It won't die, I will assure you of this. I do not wish to see it die and be
replaced with the smerchless, thowless, skunnersumm international English.
Id est American cultural supremacy.
Micheil
>
>On Fri, 08 Dec 2000 07:13:09 GMT, Mic...@Ireland.com (Micheil) wrote:
>
>>Nčill "Hoser" Mac Eňghann has the Irish blood in him, God save the
>>poor sinner. (Most Hebrideans would sooner have terminal leprosy.)
>
>
> Most Hebrideans would sooner sit brooding over their herring and
>potatoes while contemplating man's eternal damnation. If they had
>more Irish blood it would filter out the misery in them.
>
>
>>When the word leaked out, the family fled to Cape Breton, Canada to
>>escape the shame. However, he still makes these embarrassingly Irish
>>spelling faux pas from time to time. "Lě" - the horror of it all!
>
>
> Actually I'm pretty sure I've seen it spelled that way in "Gairm".
>
>The Stórdata at Sabhal Mór Ostaig has it that way too. It's one of
>those new fancy spellings I think.
>
>
>>Before Mr. Mac Eňghann bursts into indignant print to smear me with
>>the same tarbrush, I freely admit that my grandmother came from
>>Donegal,
>
>
> You're worse than me then -- my Irish people are from Antrim.
>They can spit on Scotland from there (and frequently they do).
>
>
>Niall
>--
>
>"o 's ŕlainn an t-ŕite"
God save us, there's no fight left in you at all! You're getting fat
and lazy, sitting there in Cape Breton with your Toronto wife laying
plate after plate on the table before you, then bobbing prettily and
asking if the Master will take a pint of Moosehead Beer with his
supper! And me over at the pub living on Cheezies and trying to pick
out a cheap whisky while the barmaid stands there leaning on her
knuckles, the one eye glaring at me and the other inspecting the
ceiling as she snarls, "For Jesus' sake, make up yer bluidy mind!"
Tiocfaidh mo lá, as the Irish say - is fearr go mall ná go brách!
(My day will come - better late than never!)
Micheil
>
>On Fri, 08 Dec 2000 05:09:08 GMT, Mic...@Ireland.com (Micheil) wrote:
>
>>Or at least we did until a few weeks ago when the BBC, that arbiter of
>>Gaelic orthographical orthodoxy, suddenly dumped Rèidio for Radio,
>>while sticking with TBh for Telebhisean/television (presumably, the
>>Hanoi version of Tuberculosis and so ugly looking) The Irish, whose
>>heads are not stuck as far up the arse of Gaelic orthodoxy as are our
>>pundits, settled for Telefis; a much more pleasant looking word.
>
>
> Chleachd Somhairle Mac Gill-Eathain "teilifis" anns an dàn "Aig
>Uaigh Yeats":
>
> "le dealbh an té òig àlainn
> ann an teilifis gach raoin"
Is toigh leam teilifis! Telebhisean, no TBh - a Dhia nan Gras!
>
>>And why should we not settle for the commoner words in daily use.
>>Radio is not an English word, it's an international word now.
>
>
> Ach dé mu dheidhinn "caol le caol is leathann le leathann"? Sin
>an t-aobhar a dh'fheumadh sinn an cruth Gàidhealach a chur air.
>
Ceart gu dearbh. Cha do chuala mi sin. 10/10 dhuit!
>Niall
>--
>
>"o 's àlainn an t-àite"
- mìcheil
- innis dhomh sgéile mu 'n Thìr nan Òg...
Micheil
>In article <3a30b0be...@news1.ns.sympatico.ca>,
> all...@siudaig.org (Niall) wrote:
>> Ach dé mu dheidhinn "caol le caol is leathann le leathann"? Sin
>> an t-aobhar a dh'fheumadh sinn an cruth Gŕidhealach a chur air.
>
>Lost me on a few of the words in the last sentence -- t-aobhar? Work?
>Can't find my dictionaries. And yes, what about the spelling rule?
>Which is why I responded positively to the suggestion of "pastail".
Aobhar - reason.
Niall was pointing out that the Gaelic grammar rule, "broad to broad
and slender to slender" makes nonsense of the word "Radio" now being
used by BBC Alba.
For the benefit of non-Gaelic speakers, this rule appoints the vowels
e and i as slender, and a, o and u as broad. You cannot have a broad
vowel and a slender vowel separated by a consonant, so Radio
R +a (broad) + d + i (slender) +o
is not allowed. That's why Radio used to be spelled Reidio by BBC
Alba.
For some reason, someone has decided to dump the rule, which makes
"Radio" look to Gaelic speakers just like "Reidio" looks to English
speakers - wrong.
The fate of the Gaelic language is currently being decided by people
who live in dark cubicles in some remote studio and who never come out
for air, which means their brains are getting more and more scrambled.
Bad enough to watch the Scots speakers trying to decide how to write
their language so people will stop calling it bad Eng;lish - we're
having the opposite problem; our pundits are trying to make Gaelic
look more English, so everyone will say, "My word, what a progressive
orthography for a language 3,000 years old!" Some hope.
America is already well down this drain with "kleen" and "thru"; the
sort of spelling beloved of cheap motels and Tyd-E-Bol toilet cleaner
advertising. However, Scots don't usually understand the point of E-Z
Kleene! as Z is pronounced Zed, not Zee in Scotland. I like that. The
more one sees of this, the more one realizes how alien the culture are
to each other. I'll never forget bursting into laughter the night my
Canadian wife suddenly stared at me in horror at a ceilidh where
everyone was chattering in Gaelic and said, "My God, I never realized
it until now - you're a foreigner!"
- měcheil
- innis dhomh sgéile mu 'n Thěr nan Ňg...
Micheil
<Nick-...@aladdinscave.net> wrote:
>
>Micheil <Mic...@Ireland.com> wrote in message
>news:3a305cbf.43058436@news...
>> However, there is a subtle undercurrent here. "Fernsprecher" (note, it
>> ends in "r")
>
>Sorry every time I've seen it in print it definitely had no R; not that
>books on the English language have anything erudite to say about German
>orthography.
http://www.fernsprecher.de/nokia/index.htm
or the following address at:
http://www.sfb441.uni-tuebingen.de/~herrmann/
Büro: Nauklerstraße 35 : Zi 306
Fernsprecher: +49 · 7071 · 29-77162
Fernkopier: +49 · 7071 · 29-5830
epost: herr...@sfs.nphil.uni-tuebingen.de
Perhaps the publisher had lost the letter r from his type font. I've
seen the same problem with old typewriters in the UK, where the letter
e got worn out, so reporters would substitute letters like o. Thus:
"Sir A. Douglas-Homo said that..."
> was introduced by the Nazis to rid the language of
>> foreign influences.
>
>It does not invalidate the word, I still like it far better than the insipid
>sound telephone, the meaning of which cannot be readily understood at a
>glance. Needless to say that I can understand fernsprecher at a glance
>
> When I was in Germany you occasionally saw an
>> older kiosk with Fernsprecher on it, but most kiosks had reverted to
>> Telefon.
>
>I really don't like the German anymore than I like the English, it looks,
>and therefore likely sounds, ghastly.
>Does 'tele-' have any meaning in any of the Goidellic languages?
No Gaelic word starts with "tel..." I don't know about the other two
Goidelic languages. (Note, one "l" in Goidelic... Do you want me to
prove it now, or shall I wait until you object?)
>
>>
>> And why should we not settle for the commoner words in daily use.
>> Radio is not an English word, it's an international word now.
>
>
>Because by the same argument then thousands upon thousands of, at present,
>English words have to be regarded as Gaelic because speakers switch between
>the two languages all the time.
That's a false anaolgy. I'm not talking about using English equivalent
words for Gaelic words, I'm questioning inventing Gaelic words rather
than adopting anf adapting "international" words.
>
> Actually
>> it was imported into English quite recently; before that, radio in the
>> UK was "wireless" as it was in French, "Telephonie Sans Fils" or TSF
>> for short.
>
>
>I actually prefer 'wireless' or 'tranny' as these are better sounding than
>the foul 'radio'.
"Tranny". I had to write home to find out what tranny meant. I thought
it might be a new word for a body part, as the first time I saw it, it
was in a sentence about a teenage girl, "I scratched my tranny against
a brick wall." I spent a few bemused minutes considering this, then
took a cold shower and went out for a brisk walk.
>>
>> To see France (I won't mention Quebec after the email I got about my
>> last foray in that direction) desperately trying to invent French
>> phrases for words which are essentially international currency, is
>> like watching an old woman trying to maintain her dignity as her teeth
>> fall out.
>
>Why shouldn't they finght the imposed Anglicization of their language if
>they think it will harm it?
There's a fascist edge to you, Young Nicholas, which makes me fear you
may become a secret policeman, once the Scottish Frei Staat sets up
under the Scottish Nazionalist Party. By the time you and your pals
have finished ripping off me and my pals and have moved into our fancy
castles and are driving our Rolls Royces around the West Highlands,
the distinction between Free Will and You Will (obey or else) may be
getting a little blurred.
"The imposed Anglicization". Do you think teams of specially trained
US operatives are parachuting into France and hissing, "Hey kid, wanna
stick a gum?" Nobody is imposing their culture on anyone now - they
don't have too. The kids suck it up like free Pepsi, and so do their
parents. The best lines I've heard about that were from two old
Japanese. He said, "Democracy no good, not Japanese way!" His wife
said, "Democracy no lose war!" She was a realist.
You should study the Gaelicization of Ireland to see failure writ
large. Then you should study the revolt by young South African blacks
against being taught in Afrikaans. As Colin Rosenthal noted about
Norway and NyNorsk, the kids wanted to be taught in English.
Why? Because with Afrikaans/NyNorsk they could only talk to a few
Afrikaaners/Norwegians. With English they could talk to the world.
Gaelic, the language I truly love, is already on its way out the door.
Sure there are lots of Gaelic speakers knocking around, but they don't
have the fluency, the breadth of expression that their grandparents
had. They speak it poorly; they make grammatical mistakes. By so
doing, they're changing the language into something it wasn't before.
But even if the language finally wilts and dies, the Highland people
will still be here. There are maybe 12 million of them in the US
alone, speaking with American accents, but still looking Highland,
hanging onto the customs they know about, even inventing a few.
They still lose their tempers when someone impugns their honour - a US
study showed that in the southern US, where the majority of
non-African people are of Scots-Irish descent, you were ten times more
likely to get in a physical fight over matters of honour than you were
in the northern US. It wouldn't seem like home if there wasn't a fight
going on outside the pub you were drinking in - it's sort of
obligatory, or else you don't feel you've had a decent evening out.
"I'll fight anyone in this bar for five pounds?" Isn't that the modern
Scottish warcry?
More than half the languages spoken on earth have now vanished. What
could it have felt like for Mr. Ned Maddrell, knowing he was the last
native speaker of Manx? The poor old man spent his last months getting
everything down on tape he could, so at least something would be left
of his culture; a culture of which he was the only representative.
Some day, the last English speaker will realize with a shock of horror
that he or she is it. The people around will wonder how a great
language like English could have vanished. The last native Latin
speaker must have had some thoughts on that subject too. We'll know
the day has come when the UK and the US need interpreters to deal with
each other - they're already putting subtitles on the Canadian TV news
WHEN SCOTTISH PEOPLE ARE SPEAKING!
In 200 years from now, the Gaelic of the 1900s and Broad Scots will be
classical subjects in universities, like Latin. If Nick Durie could be
transported to Scotland circa 2200, nobody would understand a word he
was saying. If he asked about Gaelic, people would go to their
vegetable bins to see if they had a clove or two to show him. That
already happened to me with my own daughter when she was 10. ("What's
this garlic thing you're always talking about?")
>>
>> I think Gaelic is a little more mature than that. Some words are slung
>> together by the people themselves and become the language - by far the
>> best barometer of a language's future in my opinion - while others are
>> foisted on us but never used. Some Gaelic speakers use "Carbadadhair"
>> (Chariot of the air) for aeroplane, but most just say "Aeroplane".
>
>Which of course they did not string together.
I think you know a lot less about Gaelic and Gaelic people than you
suspect. Don't ever make the mistake of thinking you share a common
culture with them, because you don't. You are as alien to Gaels as a
German - have you ever wondered why Gaels don't write much in this
group, except, say, maybe once every couple of months? It's because
they don't feel they have much in common with you. They live in the
same country but in Gaelic Scotland, it's a different world.
Now, no doubt all sorts of people will come forward saying, "That's
nonsense!" but it isn't, because apart from a trusted few, no outsider
ever gets inside Gaelic culture. It's exactly what you do with the
English and the American-Scots, you have a favoured few that get in on
everything, but the rest are held at arm's length.
And that's less surprising about Gaels than it is about you and the
English and Americans. After all, you have a common language or nearly
so, whereas how can you possibly participate in a Gaelic-speaking bull
session? It doesn't make any more sense than it would if you were
sitting with French people.
People tend to exclude those who don't share their culture and
dialect. That is so true of the Lowland people here and the English
and American posters who want to take part. Because rudeness has
become part of your culture, you often attack them. Rudeness to
strangers is not part of Gaelic culture, so the Gaels simply smile and
slip away. Look around you - apart from three or four people here,
only one of whom lives in Scotland - who here knows anything about
Gaelic?
So when someone creates the phrase, "Chariot of the air", to a Gaelic
ear it sounds quite reasonable, because it's precisely in that
flowery, rather Irish way that Gaelic people speak Gaelic. To a
Central Belt ear it might sound "poofy" and "f*ckin English", but then
that's how southern Scottish culture is; harsh and confrontational.
Remember where the Men of Ulster came from - given the way they speak
to each other, it sure as hell wasn't the Isle of Skye!
Don't even argue with me about that - remember I'm Scottish to my
bones; I lived in Edinburgh for six years; I put my time in observing
you people. It might not occur to a Gael that someone had "invented"
Chariot of the air, but to southerners, someone had to, because no
southern Scot would be "sae poncy" as to be caught dead saying such a
thing!
>> Some borrowings become so Gaelicized that they are no longer
>> recognizable, such as my pet hate, "Tioraidh!" (CHEE-ree, from English
>> "Cheerio!") which has pretty well replaced "Slan leat! - Health with
>> thee!" on *certain islands*. (You know who you are, bloody Trotternish
>> bog-trotters!) God knows what's happening on the mainland but no doubt
>> the rot is even more advanced there...
>>
>> The fact is that languages like English are almost entirely composed
>> of foreign words, which is why so many of us start laughing when
>> people write things like, "I don't want to use the English 'pastel'."
>
>The buildingblocks of English are Germanic, I challenge you to write a
>sentence in English composed entirely of Latinate words; it cannot be done.
Really?
"Anglo-based languages radiate creative expansionism ad infinitum."
Composed entirely of Latinate words. The last two may be deleted
without altering the sense of the sentence.
It may have escaped your notice that German is considered a foreign
language in the UK. So is English, where I come from. Ask the Welsh
about that and you'll probably get the same answer.
>I do think that most of these words are completely unnecessary and are only
>used because they sound 'aureate' and thereto confuse ordinary people.
You are in danger of becoming one of the illiterati if you pursue that
thought. "Ordinary people" in Scotland were once the world's best
educated. Many of the people writing here are ordinary people, with
doctorates, professorships, etc. as an adjunct to their ordinariness.
We have discussed this before, your addiction to the idea that
shovelling shit for a living somehow makes a human being more worthy.
For myself, as I'm being wheeled into the operating theatre, the last
words I want to hear are: "Dr. Durie may know bugger all about brain
surgery, but man, could he handle a spade when they needed help with
the drains!"
Let's get to grips with this workingman thing.
The vast majority of Scotland's heroes have been working class. The
working class, like black people and other allegedly inferior groups,
did not come under-equipped with brains, intelligence, etc. Their
commonest problem was lack of opportunity to expand those natural
assets.
One of Scotland's proudest boasts is that its best men worked their
way through life/Uni against fearful odds. Today, I would say that
anyone who does not work his way through Uni but becomes a working man
shovelling shit, does so because he is either intellectually incapable
or a lazy bastard. No harm in that, somone has to shovel the shit and
once the likes of Nick Durie gets a bit of intellectual class about
him, he tends to shy away with a horrified whinny at the mention of
manual labour, so shit-shovelers can be very valuable people.
This does not mean that people who have decided to devote their lives
to wading around in sewers are somehow better than the rest of us.
In the same way, people who are brilliantly successful don't all
become that way by screwing their bosses' wives or stealing from the
blind. Many have natural talent. If you don't believe me, ask Dr.
Lesley Robertson if she got her job because of her qualifications, or
because she spent the night with the man offering the job. I warn you
that her answer is likely to do serious damage to your eye, lip or
nose, in which case you might want to call on another of scs's posters
to fix you up - if all else fails, I do a nice cross-stitch!
Sometimes classist attitudes here shock me. If I wrote things like,
"the working class are lazy shysters living off the dole and
exploiting the taxpayer", do you think my efforts would be greeted
with cries of admiration and approval?
Do you really believe that all chiefs and all Highland land owners are
greedy ruthless men who think of the ordinary people around them as
niggers to be exploited and then tossed aside when done with? I
wouldn't blame you if you did - it's not an uncommon theme here. No
wonder Dunardry writes one-line posts and then skips out before
someone shoots at him!
The problem is that when you start to believe bullshit, you start
living it. Look at the average kid. Sharp, bright, full of confidence,
ready to challenge the world. By the time he's ten, most of that has
been beaten or frightened out of him. "Don't never trust no one, son,
they're all greedy shysters, out to get you!" Or, "Don't even bother
applying for medical school - you'll never get in with our background
and accent - people like us never get in anywhere!"
My mother once said, "If I'm going to be unhappy, I'd rather be
unhappy rich than unhappy poor." Bloody right! Go for the gusto! It
still isn't a crime to be well-off and it sure beats sleeping in the
streets. That way, when Uncle Wullie's benefits run out, you'll have
the pleasure of being able to finance his drinking personally.
>>
>> Only nations with a fear of losing a language worry about what words
>> enter the language. Gaelic is going to survive, I have finally
>> decided, because of the North American-Gaels of Highland descent, who
>> feel reasonably enough that it's just as much their language as it was
>> their ancestors and because of the at-last! awakening of the Scottish
>> Gaels themselves to the fact that their language is headed down the
>> toilet at high speed, thanks to their curious idea that keeping it to
>> themselves will somehow ensure its survival; an idea so utterly devoid
>> of intelligent forethought that I'm embarrassed to put it in print.
>
>Yes, I've never understood that. It strikes me as very reminiscent of the
>Scots cringe, in that speakers seem to feel ashamed of their own tongue, or
>am I barking up the wrong tree?
No, there was a serious attempt in the latter part of the 19th century
and the first fifty years of the 20th century by the people living
south of the Highlands to eliminate the language once and for all. The
ordinary working class Gaelic speakers were taught to be ashamed of
speaking Gaelic, were told it was a peasant language and a mark of
inferiority. Church ministers and schoolmasters told them this; so
naturally, most them took this presumably reliable information at its
face value and made sure their children never learned to speak Gaelic.
Some families rebelled; they were branded as troublemakers.
Later, thinking Gaelic people stood up and told them it was nonsense
and that they had no need to be ashamed of themselves and their
culture, but it was too late, the damage had been done. The blame for
this can be laid pretty much at the door of your own Scots speakers,
my dear Nick, which is why even now Gaelic-speaking people are a
little reticent about the southern folk.
Even now, Gaelic-speakers, who are no thicker than anyone else, note
the reaction of southerners to the idea of spending money on the
language. "Waste of money". "Not economical". "Better spent putting up
road signs in Japanese". Not too many people in this group subscribe
to these opinions. If they did I wouldn't stay here.
However, there is a growing sense of confidence. Even people like me
have some effect. I'm as bold as brass, not really "suitable" by
Highland standards - my mother told me on several occasions that I
wasn't fit for Highland society - but I'm damned if any living man is
going to tell me I'm inferior to anyone else without getting an
argument about it.
And the fact is that most Lowland people are pretty bothered by the
facts above and would not go out of their way to support another
repression of Gaelic. The Gaels themselves have expressed support for
Scots and that's the way I see it - whatever happened in the past is
done; today the road is forward and pretty steep too, but then, that's
what we're alleged to thrive on - adversity.
The Scottish cringe belongs to a class of Scot who is irrelevent
today. We've seen enough of English royalty and aristocracy to
understand that by our standards, they're not really people one would
want to spend much time with or be like. The successful people in this
group are what I see as Scotland's greatest strength; well-qualified,
generally unassuming; easy to get along with; rock hard in the face of
challenge or any threat to Scotland and totally confrontational if our
homeland is threatened. Pretty much what most nations are like.
Scotland today is not the country I left, but under the modern gloss,
the people haven't changed. Nobody here represents a type of Scot I
haven't met before. Some of my friends are members of this group and
to a degree are my Scottish kinfolk across the sea. If I ever get back
home, I imagine we'll be able to hold a piss-up without coming to
blows or clawing each other's eyes out. That seems fair, doesn't it?
But we do all share one common interest - we want what's best for our
country and the people who live in it, and the discussion about how to
achieve that has lasted for centuries and spills into scs, and will no
doubt continue for centuries more.
>
>> Even if it doesn't it will outlive me, and after that I'm not likely
>> to be too bothered, being more concerned with beating out the flames,
>> etc.
>
>It won't die, I will assure you of this. I do not wish to see it die and be
>replaced with the smerchless, thowless, skunnersumm international English.
>Id est American cultural supremacy.
Come on; you can't fight the march of history, but you can adjust it.
Firstly, you have to find a reason for people to use Scots and sadly,
only one thing has ever united our people and that's a common enemy.
Get into Westminster, ram a bill through outlawing the use of Scots
and you'll hear noithing else from coast to coast - even the
Hebrideans will be doing their best to sound like they've lived in
Aberdeen all their lives! Then threaten to bomb Edinburgh. When
popular Scottish support forces you to carry out the threat, try again
with Glasgow. Eventually you'll find somewhere that Scots don't want
bombed and you'll get your wish - an independent Scotland! Of course
by then, most of us will have moved to Canada, so you'll have to start
all over again from scratch...
Micheil
>In article <3a303d5d.35023256@news>,
> Mic...@Ireland.com (Micheil) wrote:
>> Dath - pigment, colour, dye, tinge.
>> Picture - dealbh
>> Picture painter - fear-dealbhe (masc)
>> Picture painter - ban-dealbhair (fem)
>>
>> (Note that "ban" does not lenite words starting with "d".)
>>
>> I don't know by your name whether you are a man or a woman, so I've
>> given the title for both sexes, just in case.
>>
>> 'S e 'ur beatha.
>
>Hrm, thanks, but I wasn't looking for how to say "picture painter".
>That could be any artist. I was looking for a specific way to
>say "pastel" and/or "pastelist". Pastelist - someone who paints with
>sticks of powdered pigment. Pastel - a stick of powdered pigment.
>
>
>--
>Mar sin leibh an-drŕsda,
>
>Roan
I don't believe pastel painting was a major feature of Highland life.
More into dyes and stuff like that - much collecting of household
urine for yellow, etc.
The problem with Gaelic is that if you invent a word like Pastelist,
it will tend to imply someone who makes it, rather than using it to
create art. Our art tends to be verbal or musical. Also, English is
much more flexible in creating or adapting foreign words than Gaelic,
which explains to a large degree the differences in distribution and
usage.
But you're a bright woman (eil...@spamcop.net), you know all this
already.
Nick-Durie
Nick-Durie <Nick-...@aladdinscave.net> wrote in message
news:3a312...@news2.vip.uk.com...
Oh come on I don't think it was that bad an attempt.
Niall
On Fri, 08 Dec 2000 12:27:11 GMT, Roan <eil...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>I've spent a lot of time with my nose buried in Dwelly's and Stòrdàta
>looking for words that don't seem to exist.
The true test of any language is usage. Ask ten native speakers of
Gaelic what word they use for something and if it happens to come from
English, then that's still the Gaelic word. People seem to be insecure
about this but in fact it happens in every language and the vast
majority of Gaelic words in any case are unrelated to English. Gaelic
is not the slightest bit threatened by neologisms from English -- it's
threatened by apathy and ignorance.
>Stòrdàta is constantly updating its database with technology words and
>I see pages and pages of proposals for new words or words already in
>use that haven't been "recorded". Are you saying they shouldn't bother?
>That they should just use the English versions? If so, you might want
>to take that up with them.
I've proposed new words myself, but proposing and disposing are
different things. Gaelic-speakers will say "bhideo", but they also
seem to have taken to "eadar-lìon". Since the trend is not all one
way or the other, it's not really worth worrying about, especially if
your vocabulary of native words deserves more attention.
Niall
>Speak for yourself, I bemoan this dreadful truth full often! English has
>had its sound scathed by the 'borrowing' of great weakling, tasteless
>Latiny or Greek words
Actually it has become a much richer and sophisticated language on
that account -- it's the Saxon roots that are earthy and uncouth (note
the "th"s in those words BTW). What would English be without words
like "somnolent" or "diaphanous"?
Niall
--
"o 's ālainn an t-āite"
Niall
On Fri, 08 Dec 2000 12:35:18 GMT, Roan <eil...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>In article <3a30b298...@news1.ns.sympatico.ca>,
> all...@siudaig.org (Niall) wrote:
>>
>> What for anyway? Is there a Gąidhealtachd down there in VA
>> we know nothing about?
>
>Why does it matter and why would you assume that I'm just from VA?
You're in VA now. I'm not commenting on your pedigree
one way or the other -- I'm just asking who's going to
understand you if you go about using a Gaelic title in your
line of work.
Niall
--
"o 's ąlainn an t-ąite"
Roan
all...@siudaig.org (Niall) wrote:
>
> On Fri, 08 Dec 2000 12:35:18 GMT, Roan <eil...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
> >Why does it matter and why would you assume that I'm just from VA?
>
> You're in VA now. I'm not commenting on your pedigree
> one way or the other --
Well, that's good, because it's irrelevent. Isn't it? :P If it makes
you feel better, no, I'm not American. Happy?
> I'm just asking who's going to
> understand you if you go about using a Gaelic title in your
> line of work.
Then just spit it out, eh? Don't mince words, it makes you look like
you're collecting ammunition :P
As for your question, you might as well say that about every web site
that has Gaelic in it, no? Who's going to understand it anyhow?
Me, I'm just trying to provoke a little interest in the language and
move people away from the Braveheart/tourism scenerio -- as best *I*
can. There's more to it than Hollywood. There's people and their modern
ways, as well as the old.
Unfortunately, learning the language is extremely difficult for me as I
am severely hard of hearing. I don't remember much from my childhood at
all, unfortunately. I do the best I can with the limited resources
available -- meaning video tapes like SOL. I can't use audio tapes. I
can read quite a bit, I think, but speaking is another matter. Heck, I
don't think I'd even understand someone if they spoke to me :P
--
Mar sin leibh an-drąsda,
Roan
Roan
"Nick-Durie" <Nick-...@aladdinscave.net> wrote:
> > Speak for yourself, I bemoan this dreadful truth full often!
English has
> > had its sound scathed by the 'borrowing' of great weakling,
tasteless
> > Latiny or Greek words which don't fit the sound of the tongue and
cannot
> be
> > readily understood unless you happen to know a French or English
likeword.
> > For to build up my mooting, how many English speakers who fall upon
words
> > like "omniscient" or "recumbant" can easily work out the meaning of
these
> > words.
> >
>
> Oh come on I don't think it was that bad an attempt.
I thought it was pretty good. 7/10 for you, Niall :P
Roan
Mic...@Ireland.com (Micheil) wrote:
> I don't believe pastel painting was a major feature of Highland life.
> More into dyes and stuff like that - much collecting of household
> urine for yellow, etc.
Course, you're right. However, I did notice a reference to "woad" in
the dictionary reference to "pastel". I'll check my Scottish entomology
tomorrow. See what it says.
You know, it's not the point of having a new word. I've found with
Gaelic that one word means SO many things depending on how it's said.
Course, you know that. Now, if "cailc" or "chalk" is sufficient, then,
dammit, list it there :P
> The problem with Gaelic is that if you invent a word like Pastelist,
> it will tend to imply someone who makes it, rather than using it to
> create art. Our art tends to be verbal or musical. Also, English is
> much more flexible in creating or adapting foreign words than Gaelic,
> which explains to a large degree the differences in distribution and
> usage.
Damn Scots should have learned how to draw :P Now that I think of it,
don't you find that rather strange? I mean, are there any references to
Scottish artists at all, other than the modern crew and the ancient
Picts (symbols, natch)? I would assume that it wouldn't be worth much
to a clan, or would it? What about the Clan Seanchaidh? Did he only
learn the history orally?
Things to read about, learn about. Of course, anything you know would
be of help :P
> But you're a bright woman (eil...@spamcop.net), you know all this
> already.
Dunno about that. I get the feeling I'm seen as an ignorant non-Scot :P
Now, ignorant, probably :P
Chuck Hays
Alan Hardie wrote:
> (Niall) wrote:
> > What would English be without words
> >like "somnolent" or "diaphanous"?
> >
>
> Spellable?
Heh. How about "wide-awake" and "solid"?
Wee Charlie :)=)}
Neacalban1
>>>
>>> What for anyway? Is there a Gàidhealtachd down there in VA
>>> we know nothing about?
A'Neill,
Ann an da r/ireadh, an do sgr/iobh thu-fh/ein sin? Agus mi-fh/in,M/icheil,
agus Liam a fuireachd an seo, chan eil aon dhinn ach uair a th/ide air falbh
bho Roan. Bha ceilidh sporsail againne an seachdain seo chaidh. chaidh /orain a
sheinn,bha piobairean,cluicheadairean air a'chlarsach, fidhlearan, agus chaidh
tr/i sgeulachdan innse, ann an G/aidhlig. Ach feumaidh mi aideachadh nach eil
iad cho iasgaith an seo an taca ris na daoine an Ceap Breatuinn- dh'fhalbh a
h-uile duine mu mheadhan-oidhche! Neacal
Micheil
No, none. The life was too hard for luxuries like artwork, Like all
peoples living in a brutal land - Gypsies, desert Arabs - the
intellectual culture was oral. But not poor on the other hand;
despised was the bard who did not know at least 80,000 LINES of poetry
word perfectly, and with many people among the laity who knew almost
as much and whose pleasure was to catch the bard or the seanachaidh
out in a mistake.
Thus the reliance of Celtic historians on oral tradition, because it
has always been proved, where it can be, to be unerringly accurate,
given the natural intermingling with the supernatural which was true
of all cultures in those days, especially in tribal and ancestral
matters.
You understand that being able to read and write, while vital in our
society, is not necessarily a disadvantage in other cultures, although
Gaelic culture was suprisingly literate.
The saving grace was compensation; most illiterate people have
memories that would shame us if we didn't know that writing something
down causes the mind to let it go and forget it, because we now have
the assurance of being to find it again.
A good seanachaidh would not only know all the sagas word perfectly,
but could recite the genealogy of everyone of importance in the clan
in minute detail. You understand that being imprecise or forgetful was
a major disadvantage for a seanachaidh - it was a gift, like medical
diagnoisis or great piping and some people were brilliant at it.
Indeed, this reliance in oral tradition is very likely why most Celtic
people paint vivid word pictures, unlike their less vocal Saxon
neighbours, although the southern Scots did once have, and in some
still do, like Robbie Burns and many others, the gift of picturesque
speech, until writing became commonplace.
For instance, who cannot marvel at lines from the Border Ballads like
"The Lindsays flew like fire about", describing their conduct at the
battle of Otterbourne. And one thinks of Mrs. Hogg, mother of James
Hogg, The Ettrick Shepherd, who said to Sir Walter Scott, "Noo ye hae
written doon ma son's poems, ye hae spoiled them aa thigether
(altogether)!"
She was right; once they were written down, no one bothered to
remember them any more, and the consequence was that Childe was forced
to collect his definitive Border Ballad anthology from the
Scotch-Irish Ulstermen of the American South, rather than from their
cousins back home in the Borders.
As a side comment, it's interesting that none of the English ballads
come even close to the artistic level and majestic sinplicity of the
Border Ballads (a personal love of mine.) The Border Ballads are an
outstanding and typically pithy record of Border history from the
1300s to the 1600s; well worth your attention if you're not familiar
with them.
So the lack of painting and written literature, which, by the way, was
not true of Ireland, with its literate and ever-recording monks, may
have contributed to the keeping alive of many Highland traditions and
much of the culture today, despite the best efforts of the Church to
stamp them out for ever as heretical paganism.
As for the Gaelic language and the revival in interest about it, I
cannot decide whether this is a true renaissance; or the old warrior
uttering one last defiant war scream before succumbing to his wounds.
>
>Things to read about, learn about. Of course, anything you know would
>be of help :P
I know lots. I grew up in the culture of the 19th century. Ask.
>> But you're a bright woman (eil...@spamcop.net), you know all this
>> already.
>
>Dunno about that. I get the feeling I'm seen as an ignorant non-Scot :P
>Now, ignorant, probably :P
Not at all. Unless I'm wrong, you hail from Ontario and probably have
the blood of both Highlanders and Lowlanders running through your
veins. Just because you live overseas makes you no less Scots than
those who live in Scotland and have all sorts of foreign input into
their family lines too.
I notice there is a sea change between the Highland and Lowland
attitude to overseas Scots; the Lowlanders seem to be against them,
whereas the Highlanders see them as our cousins who were forced to go
overseas.
I'm reminded of what an Irish-American woman once told me, when she
went to Ireland and told an old man in a pub that her family had come
from the area. He said, "What took ye so long to get back to us?"
I'd say that was a very Highland attitude too. After all, with the
clan system's remnants still very much alive, it isn't hard to track
down relations in the Highlands as long as you know where your
ancestors came from.
The southern folk don't have that - with no tradition of maintaining
their genealogies, most don't know their family history much beyond
their grandparents unless they make a special effort to research them.
And of course the Highland emigration was a diaspora rather than a
leaving; with people being forced out rather than choosing to go,
which makes those links more emotionally binding. Plus, the Hebridean
people inherited a double tradition of ancestor worship; from the
Celts our mothers and the Norsemen our fathers, so knowledge of local
people and local events from long ago is quite common, even today.
I am very proud of my mixed Celtic and Norse heritage. I think we have
a history which is every bit as powerful and dramatic as any and from
one of the side of our ancestry, we have conquered half the known
world, from the time of the first movement across Greece towards Rome
and Spain, to the British Empire.
The Gaelic diaspora to North America, Australia, Europe, Russia and
South America were but more spearheads being thrown out to ensure that
wherever we go and whatever we meet, we will always survive with at
least part of our culture intact. Wait until you meet a six foot tall
Andean Indian with huge earrings and black hair down to his shoulders,
or his cousin from Northern Canada dressed in buckskins and hair
braids, who tell you, "I am a Maclean!" (I can testify to both) and
you will then understand how we survive and in what curious ways!
Indeed I have only ever met one native American who denied having
Scottish blood. Both my best native friend and her best friend have
red hair (and both are physicians - so much for the "drunken squaw /
wagon burners" slurs. I find it easy to dislike and be uncomfortable
around "white settlers"; whether in the Highlands or in Canada.)
I have never forgotten a little pink-cheeked, red-haired, blue-eyed
Jicarilla girl whose parents looked like Geronimo. She was pure Apache
but for a Highland great-great-grandfather on her mother's side - and
by God, did it show! Our Highland emigres got around. It was their
natural charm, I suspect!
>--
>Mar sin leibh an-drŕsda,
>
>Roan
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Roan Studio & Gallery
>original artwork and web design services
>Herndon, VA USA
>
>http://RoanStudio.com
>
>--
>Mar sin leibh an-drŕsda,
>
>Roan
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Roan Studio & Gallery
>original artwork and web design services
>Herndon, VA USA
>
>http://RoanStudio.com
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
Niall
On Sun, 10 Dec 2000 04:53:15 GMT, Roan <eil...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>As for your question, you might as well say that about every web site
>that has Gaelic in it, no? Who's going to understand it anyhow?
I didn't know it was for a website. You've answered my question,
so thanks.
Niall
On 11 Dec 2000 07:00:43 GMT, neaca...@aol.com (Neacalban1) wrote:
>A'Neill,
> Ann an da r/ireadh, an do sgr/iobh thu-fh/ein sin? Agus mi-fh/in,M/icheil,
>agus Liam a fuireachd an seo, chan eil aon dhinn ach uair a th/ide air falbh
>bho Roan. Bha ceilidh sporsail againne an seachdain seo chaidh.
OK tha mi duilich. Ach seo a' cheist a bh'agam -- nam biodh
Roan a' cur a h-ainm sa' Ghàidhlig air, can, na càirtean gnothaich,
no air comharrachadh a' crochadh a-muigh air a' bhuth aice, cò ann
an Bhirginia a bhiodh ga thuigsinn -- a-mach as an triuir dhiubh? Ach
ma bhios i a' cur na Gàidhlig air an larach-lìn, uill, tha sin nas
ciallaiche.
Niall
On Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:16:03 GMT, Mic...@Ireland.com (Micheil) wrote:
>Indeed I have only ever met one native American who denied having
>Scottish blood. Both my best native friend and her best friend have
>red hair (and both are physicians - so much for the "drunken squaw /
>wagon burners" slurs. I find it easy to dislike and be uncomfortable
>around "white settlers"; whether in the Highlands or in Canada.)
How can you tell a "white settler" from a "white person" and what
in any case does "white" have to do with being a settler?
Roan
Geez, Niall. Do you have to use the big words? At least I understood
Nick's message :P
Looks like I'll have to break out the dictionaries.
--
Mar sin leibh an-dràsda,
Roan
Neacalban1
>> Roan a' cur a h-ainm sa' Ghàidhlig air, can, na càirtean gnothaich,
>> no air comharrachadh a' crochadh a-muigh air a' bhuth aice, cò ann
>> an Bhirginia a bhiodh ga thuigsinn -- a-mach as an triuir dhiubh?
duine thugainne air sg/ath nan comharrach,b'fhiach e e. Neacal
Micheil
>"o 's ŕlainn an t-ŕite"
It's a Highland phrase meaning English people who settle in the
Highlands. It implies those who arrive and immediately start to tell
the locals what they're doing wrong and how to improve their lives and
become just like the English.
Ditto in Canada, except you guys call them "remittance men".
Roan
> Roan a' cur a h-ainm sa' Ghàidhlig air, can, na càirtean gnothaich,
> no air comharrachadh a' crochadh a-muigh air a' bhuth aice, cò ann
> an Bhirginia a bhiodh ga thuigsinn -- a-mach as an triuir dhiubh? Ach
> ma bhios i a' cur na Gàidhlig air an larach-lìn, uill, tha sin nas
> ciallaiche.
You know, I wasn't going to say anything, but this is getting rude. If
have something to say about me, or my attitude, say it in English.
Neacalban1
>have something to say about me, or my attitude, say it in English.
Sorry Roan,
kinda forgot different peoples fluency.Nothing bad really.
"Ok, I'm sorry.But this is the ? I had- if Roan put her name on business
cards,or on signage hanging outside her shop,who in virginia would understand
it,outside of you 3? But if she puts it on the web-site, thats more sensible
I just pointed out that if even one person comes to us because of it, it was
worth it.
tioraidh an dr/asda, Neacal
Niall
On Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:28:43 GMT, Roan <eil...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>You know, I wasn't going to say anything, but this is getting rude. If
>have something to say about me, or my attitude, say it in English.
I thought you spoke Gaelic yourself -- I stand corrected.
andre...@my-deja.com
I wonder if much has been used in the current exhibitiion at the Dean
gallery.
Tom Thomson
>I notice there is a sea change between the Highland and Lowland
>attitude to overseas Scots; the Lowlanders seem to be against them,
>whereas the Highlanders see them as our cousins who were forced to go
>overseas.
Maybe the highland attitude is because we remember what happened.
How many of us can there be who have not heard these lines of Mairi
Mhor?
Thainig fios a-null thar chuain
'Nuair a chual' iad ar cas,
"Seasaidh sinne mar bu dual
Ri ur gualainn 'sa bhlar."
M.