Urban renewal on the west side of the pond...
deem...@aol.com
Interesting article (well, to me) about the challenges and
possibilities of urban renewal in the US...where we've spread out too
much for service and energy efficiency.
http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/08/09/detroit-urban-laboratory-and-the-new-american-frontier/
Adam Whyte-Settlar
<deem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:fd7d544b-0cc5-4bf7...@p8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
Oddly enough I was reading this site just an hour ago and thinking along the
sme lines.
What an opportunity to rebuild a futuristic self-sufficient city.
http://snardfarker.ning.com/profiles/blogs/detroit-attempts-to-auction
Detroit Attempts to Auction 9,000 Properties for as Little as $500; 80% Had
No Bids
deem...@aol.com
> <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:fd7d544b-0cc5-4bf7...@p8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Interesting article (well, to me) about the challenges and
> > possibilities of urban renewal in the US...where we've spread out too
> > much for service and energy efficiency.
>
>
> Oddly enough I was reading this site just an hour ago and thinking along the
> sme lines.
> What an opportunity to rebuild a futuristic self-sufficient city.
>
> http://snardfarker.ning.com/profiles/blogs/detroit-attempts-to-auction
>
> Detroit Attempts to Auction 9,000 Properties for as Little as $500; 80% Had
> No Bids
Sure, who wants an essentially useless piece of property that
they'd still have to pay taxes on? The only way anything this radical
will happen is for the govt to move in with bulldozers. Detroit, IMHO,
doesn't have the will or leadership to take the jump. Maybe one or two
of the smaller rust belt cities will take the lead.
Adam Whyte-Settlar
<deem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19ce38fd-fd82-457a...@c3g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 29, 4:37 am, "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote:
> <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:fd7d544b-0cc5-4bf7...@p8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Interesting article (well, to me) about the challenges and
> > possibilities of urban renewal in the US...where we've spread out too
> > much for service and energy efficiency.
>
> >http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/08/09/detroit-urban-laboratory-and-th...
>
> Oddly enough I was reading this site just an hour ago and thinking along
> the
> sme lines.
> What an opportunity to rebuild a futuristic self-sufficient city.
>
> http://snardfarker.ning.com/profiles/blogs/detroit-attempts-to-auction
>
> Detroit Attempts to Auction 9,000 Properties for as Little as $500; 80%
> Had
> No Bids
Sure, who wants an essentially useless piece of property that
they'd still have to pay taxes on?
Urban farming collectives. So long as they can buy up the entire
neighbourhood and keep the balcks out it should work.
The only way anything this radical
will happen is for the govt to move in with bulldozers. Detroit, IMHO,
doesn't have the will or leadership to take the jump. Maybe one or two
of the smaller rust belt cities will take the lead.
Don't be so negative.
There are huge social changes coming your way whether you like it or not.
May as well make the most of them.
deem...@aol.com
> <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:19ce38fd-fd82-457a...@c3g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 29, 4:37 am, "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:fd7d544b-0cc5-4bf7...@p8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > Interesting article (well, to me) about the challenges and
> > > possibilities of urban renewal in the US...where we've spread out too
> > > much for service and energy efficiency.
>
> > >http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/08/09/detroit-urban-laboratory-and-th...
>
> > Oddly enough I was reading this site just an hour ago and thinking along
> > the
> > sme lines.
> > What an opportunity to rebuild a futuristic self-sufficient city.
>
> >http://snardfarker.ning.com/profiles/blogs/detroit-attempts-to-auction
>
> > Detroit Attempts to Auction 9,000 Properties for as Little as $500; 80%
> > Had
> > No Bids
>
> Sure, who wants an essentially useless piece of property that
> they'd still have to pay taxes on?
>
> Urban farming collectives. So long as they can buy up the entire
> neighbourhood and keep the balcks out it should work.
That's pretty hard in a city that is 90% black. It's the blacks
who are going to have to do this...and their culture (not all blacks,
just many inner city blacks) has consisted of hand-outs, drugs, and
thugs. The "leadership" consists of those who promise the most
handouts.
>
> The only way anything this radical
> will happen is for the govt to move in with bulldozers. Detroit, IMHO,
> doesn't have the will or leadership to take the jump. Maybe one or two
> of the smaller rust belt cities will take the lead.
>
> Don't be so negative.
> There are huge social changes coming your way whether you like it or not.
> May as well make the most of them.-
You need to read up on the last 30 years or so of Detroit city
"government". It's a who's who of graft, corruption, and
incompetence.....makes Chicago look like a bunch of pikers. Back in
the mid-70s, one of the more enlightened mayors decided to adopt a
siege mentality vs the surrounding areas. You know what happens during
a siege....first you consume what you've stored and then you start
consuming yourself.
conwaycaine
"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
news:b46dncG7XL4HDXTX...@westnet.com.au...
> <deem...@aol.com> wrote in message
> Don't be so negative.
> There are huge social changes coming your way whether you like it or not.
> May as well make the most of them.
A dogless society if the Green Earth Guys have their way,
They are declaring that each dog has the ecological footprint of driving an
SUV.
They also state unequivocally that a cat has the footprint of a golf cart
(see the real agenda here?).
They recommend (half in jest) that owners should eat their dogs in order to
save the planet..
These hot air nutters are really going at it hot and heavy.
Soon they will be proposing that we kill off about two thirds of the humans
now alive.
(Oh wait, Adam has already suggested that)
conwaycaine
<deem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:38d56a82-beeb-4b05...@l13g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 29, 8:54 am, "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote:
> Urban farming collectives. So long as they can buy up the entire
> neighbourhood and keep the balcks out it should work.
That's pretty hard in a city that is 90% black. It's the blacks
who are going to have to do this...and their culture (not all blacks,
just many inner city blacks) has consisted of hand-outs, drugs, and
thugs. The "leadership" consists of those who promise the most
handouts.
*******
Reminds me of ancient Rome.
Bread and circuses.
Guess what happened to ancient Rome.
Ian Smith
ony mair an' gied us this:
I read somewhere a while ago that the sustainable population of the UK is
about 20 million; roughly one third of what it is now. By sustainable,
they meant permanently self-sufficient in all resources. Perhaps it was
AWS?
Adam Whyte-Settlar
<deem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:38d56a82-beeb-4b05...@l13g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 29, 8:54 am, "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote:
> Sure, who wants an essentially useless piece of property that
> they'd still have to pay taxes on?
>
> Urban farming collectives. So long as they can buy up the entire
> neighbourhood and keep the balcks out it should work.
That's pretty hard in a city that is 90% black. It's the blacks
who are going to have to do this...and their culture (not all blacks,
just many inner city blacks) has consisted of hand-outs, drugs, and
thugs. The "leadership" consists of those who promise the most
handouts.
That's a shame. Maybe the whites could plant cotton for them to pick?
I'm sure they'd appreciate such a thoughtfull gesture and come round.
> The only way anything this radical
> will happen is for the govt to move in with bulldozers. Detroit, IMHO,
> doesn't have the will or leadership to take the jump. Maybe one or two
> of the smaller rust belt cities will take the lead.
>
> Don't be so negative.
> There are huge social changes coming your way whether you like it or not.
> May as well make the most of them.-
You need to read up on the last 30 years or so of Detroit city
"government". It's a who's who of graft, corruption, and
incompetence.....makes Chicago look like a bunch of pikers.
Yeah - so I've heard. Isn't the new Mayor meant to be a big improvement
though?
Can't remember his name now
Anyway - fact remains that some places in Detroit ARE being snapped up by
'urban farmers' so there must be some areas that they view as possible to
repair?
Even Detroit has got to reach it's nadir at some point. That's when the
smart money moves in. Seeing as they are pracitcally giving away the land
and building materials how much worse can it get?
How much is the tax? Is it really so prohibitive as to make even a 'free'
house unviable?
If this organisation has moved it's entire headquarters there they must be
confident that it's going to work.
Adam Whyte-Settlar
"conwaycaine" <conwa...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:97KdnSATNJ4pB3TX...@giganews.com...
It became one of the most beautifull, vibrant and most visited cultural
cities in the world.
Anything else you want to know?
Adam Whyte-Settlar
Did I? I meant to say three quarters.
Hey - whilst I can see where the argument is regarding a big meat-eater -
takes a lot of water and feed to make a pound of meat you know - there are
nutters on both sides and I'll admit these particular nutters are the
equivalent of those who claim that the "Ice Is Coming Back" (TM).
Niether are to be taken seriously.
Adam Whyte-Settlar
"Ian Smith" <ianin...@btinternet.com.removethis> wrote in message
news:XmiGm.32161$VV7....@unlimited.newshosting.com...
Geez. Where do you GET all this stuff about me from?
I'm in favour of an *increased* world population. The Earth could support a
massive increase if we went for a solar+hydrogen economy.
This 'cut the world population' BS is a white Eurocentric view based in
racism. What they are really saying of course, is cut the populations of
those awfull *poor* countries so we can keep mining their resources for us.
It's been the death of Africa.They need more people not less. They just need
to have the same access to electricity and tools as we do.
The future is looking brighter than ever before for the underdeveloped
nations now that the technology exists to provide limitless sustainable
electricity to ALL the worlds people and not just the 30% of us that hog it
all now. (And want to keep it that way)
I guess that's what the anti-progressives are afraid of. They would have to
keep their competative edge based on merit and not exploitation and military
power.
The sun provides 580 TW per year. We currently use 17 TW a year.
Is it really beyond the will and scope of all mankind to make something out
of that basic equation?
conwaycaine
"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
Only after the infusion of Gothic soldiery.
> Anything else you want to know?
Anything else you got to tell?
conwaycaine
"Ian Smith" <ianin...@btinternet.com.removethis> wrote in message
news:XmiGm.32161$VV7....@unlimited.newshosting.com...
>> These hot air nutters are really going at it hot and heavy. Soon they
>> will be proposing that we kill off about two thirds of the humans now
>> alive.
>> (Oh wait, Adam has already suggested that)
>
> I read somewhere a while ago that the sustainable population of the UK is
> about 20 million; roughly one third of what it is now. By sustainable,
> they meant permanently self-sufficient in all resources. Perhaps it was
> AWS?
And only organically grown foodstuffs?
Probably was Adam.........
Robert Peffers
front and rear. There are fields lying fallow, vast tracts of once fertile
ground doing nothing but growing heather and gorse and weeds. Then we have
golf courses unused playing fields and parklands. The land is overrun with
so many deer they must be culled. There is only a tiny fraction of this
island used to actually produce anything.
--
Auld Bob
Jeffrey Hamilton
I was watching a TV show thew other night and it's premise is the world
after all the humans have gone and how long structures will last, before
'mother nature' reclaims them.
They were using Detroit to show the effects on buildings without any
maintenance or human habitation for years on end. This was the monsterously
large old Packard Automotive plant closed and abandoned over 40 years ago.
It was quite remarkable to see the level of decay that had set in. One of
the things they mentioned was, Detroit is approx. 139 sq. miles and has
approx. 60 + sq. miles of abandoned property. I find that amazing.
cheers......Jeff
deem...@aol.com
> Adam Whyte-Settlar wrote:
> > <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
Look at the map on my original post. Detroit is way too spread out.
Ian Smith
Ok, it wisnae you. Must've been some article elsewhere. Anyways, it would
make sense to sort out the renewables/hydrogen economy _first_ before
advocating any increase in population. Resources must develop faster than
consumption, and be permanently sustainable. Energy would be scalable, but
what about finite mineral resources? I'm thinking that with a huge energy
surplus (decades from now), anything might be possible, e.g. synthetic
manufacture of materials we currently dig out of the ground.
Adam Whyte-Settlar
Hey - I wasn't claiming it didn't take a little time and effort
Detroit will take a little time and effort too.
Adam Whyte-Settlar
"Jeffrey Hamilton" <bbere...@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
news:gg4Hm.1706$Ce1....@newsfe06.iad...
>> Even Detroit has got to reach it's nadir at some point. That's when
>> the smart money moves in.
> I was watching a TV show thew other night and it's premise is the world
> after all the humans have gone and how long structures will last, before
> 'mother nature' reclaims them.
> They were using Detroit to show the effects on buildings without any
> maintenance or human habitation for years on end. This was the
> monsterously large old Packard Automotive plant closed and abandoned over
> 40 years ago. It was quite remarkable to see the level of decay that had
> set in.
It makes me smile when I hear people saying that the reason the US is in
terminal economic decline is because they don't 'manufacture enough real
things' anymore.
You know; permanent, solid, tangible stuff - like cars etc. Like a car is
any more permanant than a software programme or 'money' that exists only on
a bank's hardrive.
The only difference between the two is a little time.
How many 'solid, tangible and real' Model T's did Ford make? About 10
million wasn't it?
Where are they now? Oh that's right - they are all already just dust.and
fading memories.
Adam Whyte-Settlar
It wasn't, but the UK could easily be self-sufficient in food if it wasn't
for our appallingly inefficient land use.
The energy and water budget for producing way more meat than we need is a
case in point.
Ironicaly the healthiest diet Britons ever had was during WW2. Didn't see
many morbidly obese people waddling around back then.
And for your information organic systems are WAY more productive than the
old chemical systems. My market garden produced about 30 times more produce
per acre than the 'farm' next door.
But guess who got all the government subsidies
conwaycaine
"Robert Peffers" <peff...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:m6ednUF1YPsnCHHX...@bt.com...
>>
>>>> These hot air nutters are really going at it hot and heavy. Soon they
>>>> will be proposing that we kill off about two thirds of the humans now
>>>> alive.
>>>> (Oh wait, Adam has already suggested that)
>>>
>>> I read somewhere a while ago that the sustainable population of the UK
>>> is
>>> about 20 million; roughly one third of what it is now. By sustainable,
>>> they meant permanently self-sufficient in all resources. Perhaps it was
>>> AWS?
>>
>> And only organically grown foodstuffs?
>> Probably was Adam.........
>>
> Get real! Look around the UK and you will see many, many homes with
> gardens front and rear. There are fields lying fallow, vast tracts of once
> fertile ground doing nothing but growing heather and gorse and weeds. Then
> we have golf courses unused playing fields and parklands. The land is
> overrun with so many deer they must be culled. There is only a tiny
> fraction of this island used to actually produce anything.
There are vast tracts of fallow land in this country.
I remember Adam pontificating on how the US would soon outstrip its
capability to supply food to its own people, let alone export foodstuffs to
the rest of the world.
Adam really needs to take a drive through this land.
(And put in his order for produce)
conwaycaine
"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
> "conwaycaine" <conwa...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>> And only organically grown foodstuffs?
>> Probably was Adam.........
>
> It wasn't, but the UK could easily be self-sufficient in food if it wasn't
> for our appallingly inefficient land use.
> The energy and water budget for producing way more meat than we need is a
> case in point.
I've heard Vegans claim that the right combinations of veggies will provide
all the amino acids anyone needs to survive and thrive.
But is it really so?
Or are the Vegans perusing their own agenda?
> Ironicaly the healthiest diet Britons ever had was during WW2. Didn't see
> many morbidly obese people waddling around back then.
And stress will take off a few pounds as well.
> And for your information organic systems are WAY more productive than the
> old chemical systems. My market garden produced about 30 times more
> produce per acre than the 'farm' next door.
Cite?
I'm serious here.
No chemical fertilizers puts us back into the proper crop
rotation/composting cycle.
Is that going to get it in this era of massive overpopulation?
> But guess who got all the government subsidies
Not the old family farm as some politicians would have us believe.
conwaycaine
"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
Oh dear.
" the US is in terminal economic decline"?
Please sing us a new song, Adam.
You've worn this one out.
conwaycaine
"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
> "conwaycaine" <conwa...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> Hey - I wasn't claiming it didn't take a little time and effort
> Detroit will take a little time and effort too.
Detroit needs a change of management.
Maybe the new guy can pull it off.
Maybe.
deem...@aol.com
> "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
>
> news:p6WdnRnkpsP4ZXHX...@westnet.com.au...
>
> >> And only organically grown foodstuffs?
> >> Probably was Adam.........
>
> > It wasn't, but the UK could easily be self-sufficient in food if it wasn't
> > for our appallingly inefficient land use.
> > The energy and water budget for producing way more meat than we need is a
> > case in point.
>
> I've heard Vegans claim that the right combinations of veggies will provide
> all the amino acids anyone needs to survive and thrive.
> But is it really so?
> Or are the Vegans perusing their own agenda?
Yes and yes. You can get all the essential AAs from a vegetarian
diet...but you have to take care in what you're eating. This is
because the beans, etc don't have all of the AAs, so you have to
combine them. It's harder with a vegan diet because you've cut out
dairy which many vegetarians eat...but it is possible.
>
> > Ironicaly the healthiest diet Britons ever had was during WW2. Didn't see
> > many morbidly obese people waddling around back then.
>
> And stress will take off a few pounds as well.
Was it a "healthy diet" or lack of calories because of rationing?
Skinny can come about in a couple of ways....one of which isn't
healthy.
>
> > And for your information organic systems are WAY more productive than the
> > old chemical systems. My market garden produced about 30 times more
> > produce per acre than the 'farm' next door.
>
> Cite?
> I'm serious here.
You might need to compare organic vs efficient factory farming.
The difference being, the organic farming is much more sustainable
over the long run.
> No chemical fertilizers puts us back into the proper crop
> rotation/composting cycle.
> Is that going to get it in this era of massive overpopulation?
Chemical fertilizers aren't always bad, but our present system
over-emphasizes them. It depletes the topsoil through over use and
erosion which necessitates more chemicals which further depletes, etc,
etc......a vicious cycle.
>
> > But guess who got all the government subsidies
>
> Not the old family farm as some politicians would have us believe.
But they've got FARM-AID!!!!!!!!!!
La N
>
> "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
> news:p6WdnRnkpsP4ZXHX...@westnet.com.au...
>> "conwaycaine" <conwa...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>
>>> And only organically grown foodstuffs?
>>> Probably was Adam.........
>>
>> It wasn't, but the UK could easily be self-sufficient in food if it
>> wasn't for our appallingly inefficient land use.
>> The energy and water budget for producing way more meat than we need is a
>> case in point.
>
> I've heard Vegans claim that the right combinations of veggies will
> provide all the amino acids anyone needs to survive and thrive.
> But is it really so?
> Or are the Vegans perusing their own agenda?
>
Then there are the raw food lifestylers. My Bog, I don't know how they do
it. No oven/cookstove needed evidently.
- nilita
Robert Peffers
<deem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:719199e2-e257-4fd5...@k17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
Is that anything like lemonade?
--
Auld Bob
conwaycaine
> "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
> I've heard Vegans claim that the right combinations of veggies will
> provide
> all the amino acids anyone needs to survive and thrive.
> But is it really so?
> Or are the Vegans perusing their own agenda?
Yes and yes. You can get all the essential AAs from a vegetarian
diet...but you have to take care in what you're eating. This is
because the beans, etc don't have all of the AAs, so you have to
combine them. It's harder with a vegan diet because you've cut out
dairy which many vegetarians eat...but it is possible.
***
And I assume there are cookbooks which cover all this.
>
> > Ironicaly the healthiest diet Britons ever had was during WW2. Didn't
> > see
> > many morbidly obese people waddling around back then.
>
> And stress will take off a few pounds as well.
Was it a "healthy diet" or lack of calories because of rationing?
Skinny can come about in a couple of ways....one of which isn't
healthy.
****
Points our Adam tends to overlook in his headlong pursuits.
;=)
>
> > And for your information organic systems are WAY more productive than
> > the
> > old chemical systems. My market garden produced about 30 times more
> > produce per acre than the 'farm' next door.
>
> Cite?
> I'm serious here.
You might need to compare organic vs efficient factory farming.
The difference being, the organic farming is much more sustainable
over the long run.
*****
Sustainable, yes.
But is it any where nearly as productive?
> No chemical fertilizers puts us back into the proper crop
> rotation/composting cycle.
> Is that going to get it in this era of massive overpopulation?
Chemical fertilizers aren't always bad, but our present system
over-emphasizes them. It depletes the topsoil through over use and
erosion which necessitates more chemicals which further depletes, etc,
etc......a vicious cycle.
**********
But then there are those billions of mouths to feed.
Chemical fertilizers are, I thought. a real part of the green revolution.
>
> > But guess who got all the government subsidies
>
> Not the old family farm as some politicians would have us believe.
But they've got FARM-AID!!!!!!!!!!
As long as Willy Nelson is around, they will.
conwaycaine
"La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:86iHm.50142$Db2.19944@edtnps83...
Like that old fart with his blender, grinding up everything in sight and
reducing the whole mess to a soggy pulp?
conwaycaine
"Fred J. McCall" <fjmc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:cskre5djp2jhj2u7v...@4ax.com...
> "conwaycaine" <conwa...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> :"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
> :
> :I've heard Vegans claim that the right combinations of veggies will
> :all the amino acids anyone needs to survive and thrive.
> :But is it really so?
> :Or are the Vegans perusing their own agenda?
>
> No, this is sound. However, it requires some fairly careful meal
> planning and Vegans have to consume a pretty large volume of food to
> maintain adequate nourishment. Of course, eating more than three
> meals a day is probably healthier anyway, so spreading the volume of
> food out over more meals probably makes it manageable.
Seven or so small meals I think I recall
> The claim is that we'd live longer if we consumed fewer calories. I'm
> not sure how much real proof there is for this, though. We'd probably
> live longer if we consumed more calories and burned them off through
> exercise.
La N
That's it! I have an acquaintance who does that. And in a nearby city
there is a raw food restaurant. So, if you can imagine vegan pizza on a
"crust" made of pasty crushed walnuts ....
- nilita
Custos Custodum
news:U4adnXsbKKdqEnDX...@giganews.com:
>
> "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
> news:p6WdnRnkpsP4ZXHX...@westnet.com.au...
>> "conwaycaine" <conwa...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>
>>> And only organically grown foodstuffs?
>>> Probably was Adam.........
>>
>> It wasn't, but the UK could easily be self-sufficient in food if it
>> wasn't for our appallingly inefficient land use.
>> The energy and water budget for producing way more meat than we need
>> is a case in point.
>
> I've heard Vegans claim that the right combinations of veggies will
> provide all the amino acids anyone needs to survive and thrive.
> But is it really so?
> Or are the Vegans perusing their own agenda?
It won't provide them with sufficient vitamin B12, so they have to rely on
additives and supplements. Doesn't sound very 'natural' to me. I'd rather
have a nice plate of liver & onions.
deem...@aol.com
> <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:719199e2-e257-4fd5...@k17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 1, 8:41 am, "conwaycaine" <conwayca...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> > "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
> > I've heard Vegans claim that the right combinations of veggies will
> > provide
> > all the amino acids anyone needs to survive and thrive.
> > But is it really so?
> > Or are the Vegans perusing their own agenda?
>
> Yes and yes. You can get all the essential AAs from a vegetarian
> diet...but you have to take care in what you're eating. This is
> because the beans, etc don't have all of the AAs, so you have to
> combine them. It's harder with a vegan diet because you've cut out
> dairy which many vegetarians eat...but it is possible.
>
> ***
>
> And I assume there are cookbooks which cover all this.
Yes. They'll tell you to mix wheat bran with bean A plus bean B,
etcd etc. As I said earlier, it's much easier if you eat dairy and
eggs....but that's not "Vegan".
>
>
>
> > > Ironicaly the healthiest diet Britons ever had was during WW2. Didn't
> > > see
> > > many morbidly obese people waddling around back then.
>
> > And stress will take off a few pounds as well.
>
> Was it a "healthy diet" or lack of calories because of rationing?
> Skinny can come about in a couple of ways....one of which isn't
> healthy.
>
> ****
>
> Points our Adam tends to overlook in his headlong pursuits.
> ;=)
>
>
>
> > > And for your information organic systems are WAY more productive than
> > > the
> > > old chemical systems. My market garden produced about 30 times more
> > > produce per acre than the 'farm' next door.
>
> > Cite?
> > I'm serious here.
>
> You might need to compare organic vs efficient factory farming.
> The difference being, the organic farming is much more sustainable
> over the long run.
>
> *****
>
> Sustainable, yes.
> But is it any where nearly as productive?
It can be if it's done right. It does tend to be nore labor
intensive and expensive....which is really all that many corps care
about.
One thing to remember is agriculture doesn't have the usual
production pyramid...it has an hourglass...lots of producers,
relatively few processors, and lots of distributors. The really large
processors can, within limits, set the prices they pay to farmers.
This has changed recently, but only because the processors have bought
up lots of farmland.
>
> > No chemical fertilizers puts us back into the proper crop
> > rotation/composting cycle.
> > Is that going to get it in this era of massive overpopulation?
>
> Chemical fertilizers aren't always bad, but our present system
> over-emphasizes them. It depletes the topsoil through over use and
> erosion which necessitates more chemicals which further depletes, etc,
> etc......a vicious cycle.
>
> **********
>
> But then there are those billions of mouths to feed.
> Chemical fertilizers are, I thought. a real part of the green revolution.
True. Famine...God's way of saying "There are too many damn
people".
Custos Custodum
> Custos Custodum <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>:"conwaycaine" <conwa...@bellsouth.net> wrote in
>:
>
> Liver and onions? Yech! I'd rather eat plants.
It's not as offal as it sounds. Very tasty, in fact.
> A single multvitamin a day more than covers the B12 requirement.
>
But is it 'natural'?
Robert Peffers
"Custos Custodum" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:hckt6s$tnc$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
chemical fertilisers vs good organic farming. The good organic farming not
only puts back the elements to the soil but also adds humus to the soil.
Supplements only put back the required elements but without the fibre etc.
--
Auld Bob
Scotty
<conwa...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>"Fred J. McCall" <fjmc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:cskre5djp2jhj2u7v...@4ax.com...
>> "conwaycaine" <conwa...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> :"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
>> :
>> :I've heard Vegans claim that the right combinations of veggies will
>> provide
>> :all the amino acids anyone needs to survive and thrive.
>> :But is it really so?
>> :Or are the Vegans perusing their own agenda?
I seem to recall that there is one nutrient that is not available except
from meat, B12 comes to mind but I might be wrong, apparently vegans get it
from bacteria or other animal life on the veggies.
Adam Whyte-Settlar
China will overtake you within 8 years.
I'll give the petrodollar another 8 years max too - maybe less.
Then you'll *really* have to face reality.
I also seem to remember you saying; "Please sing us a new song, Adam. You've
worn this one out". when I was forcasting the impending collapse of the US
banking system about three years ago.
And much the same last year when I was forcasting Australia would dodge a
recession because our major trading partners were China and the Far East and
not your soon-to-be-a-banana-republic pariah state.
Remind me to post yet another 'I told you so post' if we are still alive
then.
Adam Whyte-Settlar
Er.. not quite.
I was explaining that farmers would grow whatever they could make the most
profit on and was speculating that this might soon be bio-mass and oil crops
rather than fields of potatoes or corn due to the changing energy
situation - particularly with regard to the price of oil imports and the
plummeting average income of future US punters.
They won't give a toss if some of you are starving - did anyone give a toss
when some of *they* were starving?
And who's going to *pay* for the food? Not a lot of use growing it if it
gets exported to a higher bidder.
It's a complicated business.
This looks like another 'I told you so' post in the making to me.
And in any case you still need oil to produce nitrogen and other fertilisers
for your outdated chemical systems.
Adam Whyte-Settlar
>
> "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
> news:p6WdnRnkpsP4ZXHX...@westnet.com.au...
>> "conwaycaine" <conwa...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>
>>> And only organically grown foodstuffs?
>>> Probably was Adam.........
>>
>> It wasn't, but the UK could easily be self-sufficient in food if it
>> wasn't for our appallingly inefficient land use.
>> The energy and water budget for producing way more meat than we need is a
>> case in point.
>
> I've heard Vegans claim that the right combinations of veggies will
> provide all the amino acids anyone needs to survive and thrive.
> But is it really so?
> Or are the Vegans perusing their own agenda?
I don't know about Veganism but the vegetarian diet certainly does.
I was vegetarian for years. There is a myth that you can't get B12 from a
veggy diet but that's bollox.
But I'm not advocating not eating meat anyway - just less of it. Not that
it's ever going to happen.
It's already way to late to do anything about the changing enviroment even
if their was any will among those in power/money to do so. And of course
their most definitely isn't.
The battle was lost 40 years ago.
>
>
>> Ironicaly the healthiest diet Britons ever had was during WW2. Didn't see
>> many morbidly obese people waddling around back then.
>
> And stress will take off a few pounds as well.
>
>> And for your information organic systems are WAY more productive than the
>> old chemical systems. My market garden produced about 30 times more
>> produce per acre than the 'farm' next door.
>
> Cite?
> I'm serious here.
> No chemical fertilizers puts us back into the proper crop
> rotation/composting cycle.
> Is that going to get it in this era of massive overpopulation?
Properly managed land *increases* in fertility and ultimately overtakes the
soil-depleting chemical systems.
No chemicals = no crop eventually, as the 'soil' becomes an inert junkie/
In fact it often equals no ****ing soil eventually - as we have seen over
and over again. Especialy where I'm living now.
It's WAY too big a subject for me to put into a few paragraphs. I could
write a whole book on my one system alone.
Mine was small scale and labour intensive and wouldn't easily scale up to
farm size. It was an intensive 'deep bed' system where the plants are spaced
very close together and form a 'canopy' as the roots go down rather than out
as in the widely spaced rows of chemical farms. Plus it was a 'closed loop'
that increed fertility.
But there are plenty of big organic farms with truly impressive yields and
no chemical bills.
You are always up against the perception that organic systems are in some
way 'primitive' but organic farmers also use state-of-the-art computers and
soil analysing sofware and so on. No-one is advocating a return to hoeing
fields of onions by hand.
You also have to internalise the external costs of chemicals - like the loss
of the soil as mentioned and the damage to the enviromment - someone has to
pay for that eventualy, in increased national health costs if nothing else.
Did someone mention an obesity and diabetes pandemic?
>> But guess who got all the government subsidies
>
> Not the old family farm as some politicians would have us believe.
Well the farm next to me was a family farm and he got subsidies for his
unsustainable sheep farming, but you're right - the *main* beneficiaries are
always the vast agri-companies and fertilizer manufacturers who 'advise' on
government policy - that's if they aren't already the government itself.
I'm over it. I worked my arse off 'doing my bit for future generations' for
20 years and all I got to show for it were scars.
**** the lot of them - they've sown the breeze. I'll already be dead when
the whirlwind hits.
Adam Whyte-Settlar
<deem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:719199e2-e257-4fd5...@k17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
Was it a "healthy diet" or lack of calories because of rationing?
Skinny can come about in a couple of ways....one of which isn't
healthy.
I'm just repeating from memory a book I read years ago, but the claim was
that it was definitely 'healthier'.
The calorific content was cafefully worked out - hence the 'ration books'.
You only got about 2 ounces of cheese a week maybe but whilst that isn't
much fun it is all the human body actually 'needs' for example.
Same went for eggs - maybe only two each but again that was enough to supply
just enough of the human 'essentials'.
I've also read that it is possible to survive on brown rice, a few different
veggies and a few eggs. In fact until very recently a billion people did
just that.
It's got to be brown though. White rice has most of the nutrients removed.
And didn't the original 'Muesli' alleggedly contain everything essntial for
human survival? Again - not much fun but it's possible.
Adam Whyte-Settlar
>
> Was it a "healthy diet" or lack of calories because of rationing?
> Skinny can come about in a couple of ways....one of which isn't
> healthy.
>
> ****
>
> Points our Adam tends to overlook in his headlong pursuits.
> ;=)
Not at all. - see my reply above.
conwaycaine
<deem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7969cb0b-2aad-4103...@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 1, 2:57 pm, "conwaycaine" <conwayca...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
> And I assume there are cookbooks which cover all this.
Yes. They'll tell you to mix wheat bran with bean A plus bean B,
etcd etc. As I said earlier, it's much easier if you eat dairy and
eggs....but that's not "Vegan".
>
> Sustainable, yes.
> But is it any where nearly as productive?
It can be if it's done right. It does tend to be nore labor
intensive and expensive....which is really all that many corps care
about.
One thing to remember is agriculture doesn't have the usual
production pyramid...it has an hourglass...lots of producers,
relatively few processors, and lots of distributors. The really large
processors can, within limits, set the prices they pay to farmers.
This has changed recently, but only because the processors have bought
up lots of farmland.
*********
I do believe that the twin "No No"'s , chemical fertilizers and bug killers
dramatically raised food production throughout the world.
That and futzing with the seeds (a third No No).
I can only assume eliminating these evils would soon result in widespread
starvation.
Except in Oz of course.
There they have Adam Whyte-Composter to keep things humming.
conwaycaine
>>> do it. No oven/cookstove needed evidently.
>>
>> Like that old fart with his blender, grinding up everything in sight and
>> reducing the whole mess to a soggy pulp?
>>
>
> That's it! I have an acquaintance who does that. And in a nearby city
> there is a raw food restaurant. So, if you can imagine vegan pizza on a
> "crust" made of pasty crushed walnuts ....
What is that guy's name?
We bought one of his devices, ground up a bunch of food, took a sip, and
returned the blender to the store.
(AUGH!)
conwaycaine
"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
> "conwaycaine" <conwa...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>> Oh dear.
conwaycaine
"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
> "conwaycaine" <conwa...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message ...
>> "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
>> news:-pOdnSka-9vwa3HX...@westnet.com.au...
>>
>> Oh dear.
>> " the US is in terminal economic decline"?
>> Please sing us a new song, Adam.
>> You've worn this one out.
>
> China will overtake you within 8 years.
One can only hope.
> I'll give the petrodollar another 8 years max too - maybe less.
> Then you'll *really* have to face reality.
Then we'll take the few petrodollars we have left, go hire Aussie advisors,
and soon all will once again be peachy keen.
> I also seem to remember you saying; "Please sing us a new song, Adam.
> You've worn this one out". when I was forcasting the impending collapse of
> the US banking system about three years ago.
But you failed to predict its recovery.
> And much the same last year when I was forcasting Australia would dodge a
> recession because our major trading partners were China and the Far East
> and not your soon-to-be-a-banana-republic pariah state.
Australia steps forward and assumes the White Man's burden, is it?
The lot of yez will be a new, hot, and dry province of China long before we
go down (if we ever do).
> Remind me to post yet another 'I told you so post' if we are still alive
> then.
And the popular song of the day will be
"When the pigs fly back to Capistrano"................
Adam Whyte-Settlar
<deem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7969cb0b-2aad-4103...@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
All part of the Big Lie.
Who gains?
I think I mentioned this before but I once heard a boardroom full of
agriculturalists and GE scientists crack up laughing when one jokingly
suggested that GE crops would help feed the starving.
They all just *laughed*. At least they were being honest I suppose - But
then they didn't know I would blab about it on the internet. : )
True. Famine...God's way of saying "There are too many damn
people".
Or that "There are just not enough damn ports and roads".
There's *plenty* of food. The US throws away more than Africa eats.
I and remember French and Italian farmers dumping truckloads of fruit and
vegetable in the streets to protest at the prices they were getting while
just across the Med half of Ethiopia was starving.
It's a logistical and political 'problem' - nothing to do with The Giant
Invisible Flying Spaghetti Monster or anything else along those lines.
conwaycaine
"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
> "conwaycaine" <conwa...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>> There are vast tracts of fallow land in this country.
>> I remember Adam pontificating on how the US would soon outstrip its
>> capability to supply food to its own people, let alone export foodstuffs
>> to the rest of the world.
>
> Er.. not quite.
> I was explaining that farmers would grow whatever they could make the most
> profit on and was speculating that this might soon be bio-mass and oil
> crops rather than fields of potatoes or corn due to the changing energy
> situation - particularly with regard to the price of oil imports and the
> plummeting average income of future US punters.
I believe you were going on about that.
> They won't give a toss if some of you are starving - did anyone give a
> toss when some of *they* were starving?
> And who's going to *pay* for the food? Not a lot of use growing it if it
> gets exported to a higher bidder.
> It's a complicated business.
Interesting exageration.
> This looks like another 'I told you so' post in the making to me.
>
>
> And in any case you still need oil to produce nitrogen and other
> fertilisers for your outdated chemical systems.
Not so.
We'll simply adopt your farming and composting methods.
Adam Whyte-Settlar
>> Like that old fart with his blender, grinding up everything in sight and
>> reducing the whole mess to a soggy pulp?
>>
>
> That's it! I have an acquaintance who does that. And in a nearby city
> there is a raw food restaurant. So, if you can imagine vegan pizza on a
> "crust" made of pasty crushed walnuts ....
That sort of hypocrisy used to piss me off too when I was a 'veggie'.
Some veggies were so lacking in imagination they would make *imitation meat*
out of nuts and beans and suchlike.
Ridiculous. If you're going to do that just go out and buy a *real* steak
and have done with it firkrissake - just makes other veggies a laughing
stock.
I was lucky in that I had a big organic market garden outside my back door..
I could just go out and fill a basket - and it was all 'baby' stuff too as
often as not. You can't hardly go wrong. Just a quick rinse under the tap, a
rough chop, throw the whole lot in a wok of good oil with a bit of salt and
fresh picked herbs and........
'O-h-M-y-G-o-d!
Veggie food to simply die for.
Gourmet tip - boil the water *before* you pick the sweet corn. Same goes for
the baby peas.
Some people go their whole lives without ever knowing what a tomato is
supposed to taste like.
And strawberries!!! Don't even get me started on the strawberries.
And supermarket-shopping processed-meat-eaters thought we were missing out
on something.. LOL.
Robert Peffers
"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
more by-products.
Obviously my post some time ago directing you to the former Westfield, (in
Fife), Lurgi plant that not only produces gas fuel, solid smokeless fuel but
all the by-products that come from oil and a lot more as well. What's more
it can use lots of stuff, besides coal, that we normally don't even consider
a fuel.
There is a bit about it here but there is much more all over the net -
http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file31116.pdf
--
Auld Bob
Deirdre Sholto Douglas
> 'O-h-M-y-G-o-d!
>
> Veggie food to simply die for.
>
> Gourmet tip - boil the water *before* you pick the sweet corn. Same goes for
> the baby peas.
>
> Some people go their whole lives without ever knowing what a tomato is
> supposed to taste like.
> And strawberries!!! Don't even get me started on the strawberries.
The words of someone who has, clearly, never lived in the
US.
Deirdre
________________
I drive much too fast to worry about food killing me.
Robert Peffers
"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
was really nothing too far wrong with the diet and many people supplemented
it with home gardening, the odd rabbit, hare, pigeon, mushrooms, wild onion,
wild garlic and fruit from the hedgerows. There was also plenty fish. We
sure did not starve. It may not have been very exciting and some things were
quite horrid, (black bread comes to mind), but all in all it was not too
bad.
--
Auld Bob
Robert Peffers
antibiotics in humans, these gains can, and often did, disappear by greedy
overuse without regard for the bad consequences. Not only did the
inappropriate use of antibiotics in cattle lead to good effects ending but
the surplus left in the finished product got onto the human users. Then we
had animal diseases starting to show up in humans and even growth, and other
hormones having ill effects in humans. The same goes for plants. So just
like doctors must now take great care with prescribing for humans so must
farmers take great care with what they do with animals and plants.
I brought this one up before. I was born and brought up on a farm that had
no mains electricity, mains gas, mains water of sewerage. Animal & human
waste was treated on the farm and eventually returned to the ground. In
spite of that I cannot remember any person on the farm ever catching any of
the dreaded diseases, food poisonings or other things that seem so rife
today. Well, except for once my catching ring worm from a calf, that is. So
explain how today we have regular outbreaks of food poisoning, and killer
diseases that we had never even heard of then.
--
Auld Bob
Robert Peffers
"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
food in the UK. For example he visited a place where they were sorting out
bananas for supermarkets. He lifted a hand of bananas from the rejects and
they looked just right. He peeled one banana and ate it. It was just right.
He asked what was wrong with it and was told it was not green enough.
Meaning it would be overripe by the time it was on the shelves. There were
tons of fruit in that dump. Then there were potatoes junked just because
they were the wrong shape. The great waste of perfectly good food was
surprising to most people.
--
Auld Bob
Cory Bhreckan
You've found a shop that sells edible tomatoes?
--
"For the stronger we our houses do build,
The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall
Adam Whyte-Settlar
>
> "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
> news:7YqdnRKbJ4FSRHPX...@westnet.com.au...
>> "conwaycaine" <conwa...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message ...
>
>>> "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
>>> news:-pOdnSka-9vwa3HX...@westnet.com.au...
>>>
>>> Oh dear.
>>> " the US is in terminal economic decline"?
>>> Please sing us a new song, Adam.
>>> You've worn this one out.
>>
>> China will overtake you within 8 years.
>
> One can only hope.
>
>> I'll give the petrodollar another 8 years max too - maybe less.
>> Then you'll *really* have to face reality.
>
> Then we'll take the few petrodollars we have left, go hire Aussie
> advisors, and soon all will once again be peachy keen.
>
>> I also seem to remember you saying; "Please sing us a new song, Adam.
>> You've worn this one out". when I was forcasting the impending collapse
>> of the US banking system about three years ago.
>
> But you failed to predict its recovery.
I'm still not.
If by 'recovery' you mean the collapse of hundreds of banks and the handing
over of a trillion dollars of your future taxes to the bankers then you've
got a strange definition of the word 'recovery'.
And don't kid yourself - it's not over yet.
>> And much the same last year when I was forcasting Australia would dodge a
>> recession because our major trading partners were China and the Far East
>> and not your soon-to-be-a-banana-republic pariah state.
>
> Australia steps forward and assumes the White Man's burden, is it?
> The lot of yez will be a new, hot, and dry province of China long before
> we go down (if we ever do).
S'okay - I'll be back in Spain by then.
Deirdre Sholto Douglas
> Deirdre Sholto Douglas wrote:
>> Adam Whyte-Settlar wrote:
>>
>>> 'O-h-M-y-G-o-d!
>>>
>>> Veggie food to simply die for.
>>>
>>> Gourmet tip - boil the water *before* you pick the sweet corn. Same
>>> goes for the baby peas.
>>>
>>> Some people go their whole lives without ever knowing what a tomato
>>> is supposed to taste like.
>>> And strawberries!!! Don't even get me started on the strawberries.
>>
>> The words of someone who has, clearly, never lived in the
>> US.
>>
Yes...by simply recognising the fact that slicing tomatoes,
strawberries, melons, etc. are _seasonal_ fruits in the US
and eating them in their season...namely, summer when
you can get them at any farmer's market, farm stand or
community garden stand.
Half the reason people think fresh produce tastes like crap
is because they're eating it out of season and it's being
shipped in green from a different hemisphere...eat seasonally
and lousy tasting produce becomes a thing of the past.
Having said that, if you have any Italian groceries in your
area, you might want to check them out...my experience
has been that they have the best tasting produce. Not the
best _looking_, mind you, it's usually right on the edge of
ripeness, but I don't want a peach that looks beautiful and
tastes of dust, I'd rather have one that looks a bit rough
and has to be eaten over the sink.
Deirdre
________________
Food police seem to have a fairly low panic level.
Adam Whyte-Settlar
Yeah - I've been watching these developments. Interesting stuff.
There are others around the world planning to operate on similar lines
I've seen some good work being done with algae 'factories' which produce a
continuous feed of 'green sludge' I suppose you could describe it. But green
sludge that is consistant and very high in energy value and and uses the sun
as it's main reproductive fuel. I think the plan is to turn it into a kind
of 'green' deisel for power generation. Kind of a solar-sludge power
station.
By the way. I'm really just trying to make Conway's last couple of years as
miserable as I possible can you realise.
La N
"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
>
>
> By the way. I'm really just trying to make Conway's last couple of years
> as miserable as I possible can you realise.
>
And yet he still likes you. So you're going to have to try harder ... :)
- nil
Cory Bhreckan
> Cory Bhreckan wrote:
>> Deirdre Sholto Douglas wrote:
>>> Adam Whyte-Settlar wrote:
>>>
>>>> 'O-h-M-y-G-o-d!
>>>>
>>>> Veggie food to simply die for.
>>>>
>>>> Gourmet tip - boil the water *before* you pick the sweet corn. Same
>>>> goes for the baby peas.
>>>>
>>>> Some people go their whole lives without ever knowing what a tomato
>>>> is supposed to taste like.
>>>> And strawberries!!! Don't even get me started on the strawberries.
>>>
>>> The words of someone who has, clearly, never lived in the
>>> US.
>>>
>> You've found a shop that sells edible tomatoes?
>
> Yes...by simply recognising the fact that slicing tomatoes,
> strawberries, melons, etc. are _seasonal_ fruits in the US
> and eating them in their season...namely, summer when
> you can get them at any farmer's market, farm stand or
> community garden stand.
I haven't bought a tomato in years, we grown enough to eat, dry and
freeze (as sauce). I'll put the tomatoes and other veggies that I grow
in my back yard of any farmer's market produce.
>
> Half the reason people think fresh produce tastes like crap
> is because they're eating it out of season and it's being
> shipped in green from a different hemisphere...eat seasonally
> and lousy tasting produce becomes a thing of the past.
>
> Having said that, if you have any Italian groceries in your
> area, you might want to check them out...my experience
> has been that they have the best tasting produce. Not the
> best _looking_, mind you, it's usually right on the edge of
> ripeness, but I don't want a peach that looks beautiful and
> tastes of dust, I'd rather have one that looks a bit rough
> and has to be eaten over the sink.
>
> Deirdre
>
> ________________
> Food police seem to have a fairly low panic level.
Jeffrey Hamilton
> On Oct 31, 8:04 pm, "Jeffrey Hamilton" <bberesf...@cogeco.ca> wrote:
>> Adam Whyte-Settlar wrote:
>>> <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>> news:38d56a82-beeb-4b05...@l13g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Oct 29, 8:54 am, "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote:
>>
>>>> Sure, who wants an essentially useless piece of property that
>>>> they'd still have to pay taxes on?
>>
>>>> Urban farming collectives. So long as they can buy up the entire
>>>> neighbourhood and keep the balcks out it should work.
>>
>>> That's pretty hard in a city that is 90% black. It's the blacks
>>> who are going to have to do this...and their culture (not all
>>> blacks, just many inner city blacks) has consisted of hand-outs,
>>> drugs, and thugs. The "leadership" consists of those who promise
>>> the most handouts.
>>
>>> That's a shame. Maybe the whites could plant cotton for them to
>>> pick? I'm sure they'd appreciate such a thoughtfull gesture and
>>> come round.
>>
>>>> The only way anything this radical
>>>> will happen is for the govt to move in with bulldozers. Detroit,
>>>> IMHO, doesn't have the will or leadership to take the jump. Maybe
>>>> one or two of the smaller rust belt cities will take the lead.
>>
>>>> Don't be so negative.
>>>> There are huge social changes coming your way whether you like it
>>>> or not. May as well make the most of them.-
>>
>>> You need to read up on the last 30 years or so of Detroit city
>>> "government". It's a who's who of graft, corruption, and
>>> incompetence.....makes Chicago look like a bunch of pikers.
>>
>>> Yeah - so I've heard. Isn't the new Mayor meant to be a big
>>> improvement though?
>>> Can't remember his name now
>>
>>> Anyway - fact remains that some places in Detroit ARE being snapped
>>> up by 'urban farmers' so there must be some areas that they view as
>>> possible to repair?
>>> Even Detroit has got to reach it's nadir at some point. That's when
>>> the smart money moves in. Seeing as they are pracitcally giving away
>>> the land and building materials how much worse can it get?
>>> How much is the tax? Is it really so prohibitive as to make even a
>>> 'free' house unviable?
>>> If this organisation has moved it's entire headquarters there they
>>> must be confident that it's going to work.
>>
>> I was watching a TV show thew other night and it's premise is the
>> world after all the humans have gone and how long structures will
>> last, before 'mother nature' reclaims them.
>> They were using Detroit to show the effects on buildings without any
>> maintenance or human habitation for years on end. This was the
>> monsterously large old Packard Automotive plant closed and abandoned
>> over 40 years ago. It was quite remarkable to see the level of decay
>> that had set in. One of the things they mentioned was, Detroit is
>> approx. 139 sq. miles and has approx. 60 + sq. miles of abandoned
>> property. I find that amazing.
>>
>> cheers......Jeff-
>
> Look at the map on my original post. Detroit is way too spread out.
Yes I already did @deems, I was amazed but it was only when I heard 'that
stat', that the actual size was more readily comprehended. Adam had a point,
all those vacant properties should be reclaimed as farmland.
cheers......Jeff
conwaycaine
"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
I hate it when you are kind and reasonable.
It's so....unsettling.
conwaycaine
"Fred J. McCall" <fjmc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:00ste5t2ksq3i5h90...@4ax.com...
> "conwaycaine" <conwa...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> :
> :"La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> I assume you're thinking of Jack LaLanne. He was a bodybuilder and
> had an exercise show on TV for a long, long time.
That's the lad.
I think he is in his nineties.
conwaycaine
"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
> <deem...@aol.com> wrote in message On Nov 1, 2:57 pm, "conwaycaine"
> <conwayca...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> It's a logistical and political 'problem' - nothing to do with The Giant
> Invisible Flying Spaghetti Monster or anything else along those lines.
I'd go with the Giant Invisible Flying Spaghetti Monster mesel'
conwaycaine
"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
> "conwaycaine" <conwa...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>> But you failed to predict its recovery.
>
> I'm still not.
> If by 'recovery' you mean the collapse of hundreds of banks and the
> handing over of a trillion dollars of your future taxes to the bankers
> then you've got a strange definition of the word 'recovery'.
> And don't kid yourself - it's not over yet.
I remember all the weeping, wailing, and hand wringing that occured when the
Gov "Bailed Out" the Savings and Loan industry (read: gave them over to the
Commercial Banks)
The Gov ended up making a profit on that deal.
The Gov will end up making a profit on this deal as well.
Or Madison's dream come true.
Deirdre Sholto Douglas
> Deirdre Sholto Douglas wrote:
>>> You've found a shop that sells edible tomatoes?
>>
>> Yes...by simply recognising the fact that slicing tomatoes,
>> strawberries, melons, etc. are _seasonal_ fruits in the US
>> and eating them in their season...namely, summer when
>> you can get them at any farmer's market, farm stand or
>> community garden stand.
>
> I haven't bought a tomato in years, we grown enough to eat, dry and
> freeze (as sauce). I'll put the tomatoes and other veggies that I grow
> in my back yard of any farmer's market produce.
Given that most "farmers" here are growing theirs in
back yards, I imagine they're comparable. We plant
a half dozen "heirloom" tomatoes every year...the one
called "Amish Paste" which is something like a Roma
is definitely a keeper for sauces or slow roasting...the
others tend to be various "cherry" varieties.
For us, I find it's simply easier to buy slicing tomatoes
when I hit the farmstand or at our weekly foray to the
farmer's market because over the years, our trees have
grown so much that there's no longer enough sunlight
to ripen the larger varieties. That may change next
year when we take the crabapple down though. We'll
see.
Deirdre
________________
This .sig composed of 100% post-consumer electrons.
conwaycaine
"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
> "Robert Peffers" <peff...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> By the way. I'm really just trying to make Conway's last couple of years
> as miserable as I possible can you realise.
And may I say you are succeeding admirably
;=)
conwaycaine
See, Nilita, we really do not dislike one another.
We simply enjoy plaguing one another.
(And he is very good at the game)
Adam Whyte-Settlar
"Jeffrey Hamilton" <bbere...@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
news:XRDHm.13705$Ka2....@newsfe08.iad...
What actually happened to all those buildings?
Were they just bulldozed and demolished or is it the work of vandals and
arsonists.
I still think it's a great idea for a new model of 'garden town'. It's
unlikely that we'll get a better opportunity at any rate and what's to lose?
Especially as all the roads, drainage, power lines etc are already in place.
They are failed urban deserts already so the only way is up.
Adam Whyte-Settlar
>
> "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
> news:isqdnYnKpIP4mHLX...@westnet.com.au...
>> "Robert Peffers" <peff...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>
>> By the way. I'm really just trying to make Conway's last couple of years
>
> And may I say you are succeeding admirably
> ;=)
Thank you - and may I say it's no more than you deserve in the twilight of
your years.
Adam Whyte-Settlar
And the complete dearth of the legions of morbidly obese diebetics was also
notable I'm sure.
This little outback town borders on the surreal.
The 'Mental Health Team' that the PFD works with numbers about 9 or 10 - of
whom fully 7 are morbidly obese.
I sometimes pick her up from work and she is always the last one out. So
while I wait in the car I am treated to this eye-popping parade of waddling,
breathless, parodies of human beings emerging through the double swing doors
like giant Weebles in some kind of freakish fairground shooting gallery.
And these are young(ish) *nurses* FFS! 'Health professionals' no less! These
are the very people charged with preventing members of the community from
descending into reactive depression or stress-induced psychosis etc.
What an advert for the service when their own mental health and sense of
self-worth is reflected in their own grotesque self-inflicted deformaties
These are also the same people (as I mentioned yesterday) who criticise the
PFD for being 'stuck up' because she brings in her own healthy home-made
lunches, whilst they eat double-thick hamburgers for 'elevenses'.. (I kid
you not)
I think we need another world war to get everyone happy and healthy again.
deem...@aol.com
> "Jeffrey Hamilton" <bberesf...@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
>
> news:XRDHm.13705$Ka2....@newsfe08.iad...
>
> > deemsb...@aol.com wrote:
> >> On Oct 31, 8:04 pm, "Jeffrey Hamilton" <bberesf...@cogeco.ca> wrote:
> >> Look at the map on my original post. Detroit is way too spread out.
>
> > Yes I already did @deems, I was amazed but it was only when I heard 'that
> > stat', that the actual size was more readily comprehended. Adam had a
> > point, all those vacant properties should be reclaimed as farmland.
>
> What actually happened to all those buildings?
> Were they just bulldozed and demolished or is it the work of vandals and
> arsonists.
For the most part they were condemned and demolished after the
vandals, etc had their way with them.
>
> I still think it's a great idea for a new model of 'garden town'. It's
> unlikely that we'll get a better opportunity at any rate and what's to lose?
> Especially as all the roads, drainage, power lines etc are already in place.
> They are failed urban deserts already so the only way is up.
Agreed. It could become a showplace.
Adam Whyte-Settlar
"Cory Bhreckan" <coryvreckan@nospam_verizon.net> wrote in message
news:hcn1j9$fpa$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> Deirdre Sholto Douglas wrote:
>> Cory Bhreckan wrote:
>>> Deirdre Sholto Douglas wrote:
>>>> Adam Whyte-Settlar wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> 'O-h-M-y-G-o-d!
>>>>>
>>>>> Veggie food to simply die for.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gourmet tip - boil the water *before* you pick the sweet corn. Same
>>>>> goes for the baby peas.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some people go their whole lives without ever knowing what a tomato is
>>>>> supposed to taste like.
>>>>> And strawberries!!! Don't even get me started on the strawberries.
>>>>
>>>> The words of someone who has, clearly, never lived in the
>>>> US.
>>>>
>>> You've found a shop that sells edible tomatoes?
>>
>> Yes...by simply recognising the fact that slicing tomatoes,
>> strawberries, melons, etc. are _seasonal_ fruits in the US
>> and eating them in their season...namely, summer when
>> you can get them at any farmer's market, farm stand or
>> community garden stand.
>
> I haven't bought a tomato in years, we grown enough to eat, dry and freeze
> (as sauce). I'll put the tomatoes and other veggies that I grow in my back
> yard of any farmer's market produce.
Whilst Deirdre certainly has a point about eating out of season fruit (that
might well have spent six weeks in a ships cold store) I have *never* found
a cmmercially produced tomato that came anywhere even *close* to the taste
of the organic 'bred-for-taste' varieties I used to grow. Even fresh from
farm-gate supliers.
Same goes for the strawberries. You can't even *buy* the varieties I grew
from regular seed merchants - it became illegal to sell them and these
varieties disapeared from the catalogue
decades ago and are only now preserved by volunteer growers in the HDRA
organisation which curcumvents the law as it's a kind of members only
'private club' as it were.
So please - don't try to tell ME I don't know about decent organic fruit and
veg. Mine was quite probably the best in the country. Certainly right up
there at least.
I'll say again - some people go their whole lives without ever *knowing*
what a tomato is supposed to taste like - and genuinely think they are
getting the real deal from the farm gate.
Poor fish.
Josiah Jenkins
wrote:
>
>"Jeffrey Hamilton" <bbere...@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
>news:XRDHm.13705$Ka2....@newsfe08.iad...
>> deem...@aol.com wrote:
>>> On Oct 31, 8:04 pm, "Jeffrey Hamilton" <bberesf...@cogeco.ca> wrote:
>
>>> Look at the map on my original post. Detroit is way too spread out.
>>
>> Yes I already did @deems, I was amazed but it was only when I heard 'that
>> stat', that the actual size was more readily comprehended. Adam had a
>> point, all those vacant properties should be reclaimed as farmland.
>
>What actually happened to all those buildings?
>Were they just bulldozed and demolished or is it the work of vandals and
>arsonists.
The last time I was in Detroit (May 2001), as we left the Henry Ford
Museum, I missed a turn and had to follow the signs for the
Interstate. I'd been in Detroit about four or five times previously
but, that time, I saw sights that I found difficult to believe in
(what's supposedly) a civilized country.
Burnt out buildings and 'people of color' standing around a fire in an
oildrum . . . Gawd nose what it's like now !
--
Fifeshire Floozie
"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote
> Same goes for the strawberries. You can't even *buy* the varieties
> I grew from regular seed merchants - it became illegal to sell them
Why, pray tell?
The Phantom Piper
>
> Why, pray tell?
Because they are so *good* that people
Enjoy Them Too Much and (as with all
things which people Enjoy Too Much),
they had to be banned.
You might still find them being served at
a Hollywood Party - one of the very most
exclusive ones, of course! - or in Dick
Cheney's Man-Sized Safe, being chilled
by a picture of him holding a small child
in his arms.
Or you might be offered some if you ever
get an audience with the Dalai Lama, or
the Pope... Or you might hope to taste
them as a dessert if the Queen invited you
over for Meat Pies and Gin, as she has
been known to do upon occasion.
But other than that, you're pretty much out
of luck on the supertasty Strawberries that
only Adam - among all of us here - has ever
had the good fortune to try.
Sorry,
The Phantom Piper
Robert Peffers
"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
came under the earlier, "Small Holdings & Allotments Acts", and some areas
of Scotland saw the establishment of these small holdings. There were many
in the Clyde Valley but around the Calders area of the Lothian where I was
born there were quite a few well established Small Holdings. Most of these
had become either Glasshouse establishments growing vegetable crops or were
the forerunner to today's Garden Centres or Plant Nursery. The tomatoes
these guys grew were the best I ever tasted. Mind you the fact that they
were picked the day you bought them helped a lot. Anyway, like many other
good things, the Scottish Glasshouse industry was destroyed by the Mad Cow,
Thatcher, and her gang of vandals.
--
Auld Bob
Adam Whyte-Settlar
>
>
> Yes. They'll tell you to mix wheat bran with bean A plus bean B,
> etcd etc. As I said earlier, it's much easier if you eat dairy and
> eggs....but that's not "Vegan".
>
>>
>> Sustainable, yes.
>> But is it any where nearly as productive?
>
> It can be if it's done right. It does tend to be nore labor
> intensive and expensive....which is really all that many corps care
> about.
>
> One thing to remember is agriculture doesn't have the usual
> production pyramid...it has an hourglass...lots of producers,
> relatively few processors, and lots of distributors. The really large
> processors can, within limits, set the prices they pay to farmers.
> This has changed recently, but only because the processors have bought
> up lots of farmland.
>
> *********
>
> I do believe that the twin "No No"'s , chemical fertilizers and bug
> killers dramatically raised food production throughout the world.
: ) Your'e quite sweet in your child-like innocence sometimes Conway.
You might like to look at the "Estimates of degradation and loss of food
productivity for different land-use types in the major regions" [figures by
continent and global]
For those that can't be arsed with big words and scientific papers I'll
summarise.
Since the introduction of chemical fertilzers 1,996 Million Hectares - yep -
*1,996 Million Hectares* of once productive farmland has now been officially
declared 'degraded land'
[aka '****ed'] with a corresponding reduction in Global Food Production of
12.7%.
And that's just the Global Average.
Africa has lost 65% of it's croplands and 25% of it's production.
> That and futzing with the seeds (a third No No).
Dont even get me started on that one.
Like I posted elsewhere, I 've seen a boardroom full of GE scientists and
agribusinessmen all simply crack up laughing at some wags remark about it
"helping to feed the world's poor".
Since when did agribusiness give a shit about the .'worlds poor'. Monsanto's
*stated aim* is a monoploly of the world's food production. Something that
would have seemed ludicrous only a decade ago.
conwaycaine
"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
Us old gits do so crave attention.
La N
The days of getting attention from girls in itsy bitsy teeny weeny yellow
polka dot bikinis is behind you and you have entered Adam World .... :)
conwaycaine
"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
> "Cory Bhreckan" <coryvreckan@nospam_verizon.net> wrote in message
> I'll say again - some people go their whole lives without ever *knowing*
> what a tomato is supposed to taste like - and genuinely think they are
> getting the real deal from the farm gate.
> Poor fish.
And tomatoes really aren't that difficult to grow.
A little preparation and a little care is all it takes.
(Hint: mix a handful of powdered lime in the hole in which you are planting
the tomatoes. Stops End Blossom Rot)
Being old as the hills, I now grow about three Better Boys each year and
have loads of tomatoes.
Why Better Boys?
They bear heavily, are disease resistant, and have a great acidic taste.
Now some of the heirloom verities have a better taste but they are the
dickens to grow in this virus ridden place.
conwaycaine
"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
> "conwaycaine" <conwa...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> Since the introduction of chemical fertilzers 1,996 Million Hectares -
> yep - *1,996 Million Hectares* of once productive farmland has now been
> officially declared 'degraded land'
> [aka '****ed'] with a corresponding reduction in Global Food Production of
> 12.7%.
So........
Did the chemical fertilizers destroy all this land or was it poor farming
practices???
(Did you really think I'd sleep through that one??)
Deirdre Sholto Douglas
> And tomatoes really aren't that difficult to grow.
> A little preparation and a little care is all it takes.
> (Hint: mix a handful of powdered lime in the hole in which you are planting
> the tomatoes. Stops End Blossom Rot)
> Being old as the hills, I now grow about three Better Boys each year and
> have loads of tomatoes.
> Why Better Boys?
> They bear heavily, are disease resistant, and have a great acidic taste.
I don't much care for the "virus-free" cultivars...they
traded off a lot of flavour to acquire that immunity.
We had, in addition to the Amish Paste I mentioned
to Cory, "Black plum" (large mahogany coloured cherry
type) "Super Snow" (a pale yellow about the size of
a golf ball with a peach fuzz exterior), "Yellow pear"
(your standard small light bulb shaped critter) and
Besser Cherry (a largish red produced in clusters).
Have a wee keek at these folk:
http://www.heirloomtomatoes.bizland.com/
> Now some of the heirloom verities have a better taste but they are the
> dickens to grow in this virus ridden place.
Too much tobacco grown in the same region?
Deirdre
________________
A garden is a thing of beauty and a job forever.
Cory Bhreckan
Burgers for elevenses? In my family elevenses were only observed on the
boat and involved fig newtons and whisky.
>
> I think we need another world war to get everyone happy and healthy again.
>
>
--
"For the stronger we our houses do build,
The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall
Cory Bhreckan
> Cory Bhreckan wrote:
>> Deirdre Sholto Douglas wrote:
>>> Cory Bhreckan wrote:
>
>>>> You've found a shop that sells edible tomatoes?
>>>
>>> Yes...by simply recognising the fact that slicing tomatoes,
>>> strawberries, melons, etc. are _seasonal_ fruits in the US
>>> and eating them in their season...namely, summer when
>>> you can get them at any farmer's market, farm stand or
>>> community garden stand.
>>
>> I haven't bought a tomato in years, we grown enough to eat, dry and
>> freeze (as sauce). I'll put the tomatoes and other veggies that I grow
>> in my back yard of any farmer's market produce.
>
> Given that most "farmers" here are growing theirs in
> back yards, I imagine they're comparable. We plant
> a half dozen "heirloom" tomatoes every year...the one
> called "Amish Paste" which is something like a Roma
> is definitely a keeper for sauces or slow roasting...the
> others tend to be various "cherry" varieties.
We generally don't bother with heirloom varieties, the plants are too
close together to breed true. Our main varieties are 'Beefsteak'
variations and Roma.
>
> For us, I find it's simply easier to buy slicing tomatoes
> when I hit the farmstand or at our weekly foray to the
> farmer's market because over the years, our trees have
> grown so much that there's no longer enough sunlight
> to ripen the larger varieties. That may change next
> year when we take the crabapple down though. We'll
> see.
>
> Deirdre
>
> ________________
> This .sig composed of 100% post-consumer electrons.
Adam Whyte-Settlar
Bikinis?
Geez - you colonials are SO prudish.
OK - I might have become invisible to young women about 20 years ago but the
beaches I hung out in my day no-one wore *bikinis* forkrissake.
Well - not in public anyway.
No middle-aged regrets.this side of the Atlantic.I can assure you.
Adam Whyte-Settlar
Chemical fertilisers *are* poor farming practices.
But a combination of both.
The point I was illustrating is that they certainly didn't lead to 'an
increase in global food production' whichever way you try to spin it.
Robert Peffers
support a very much larger population than they do today. Not to mention the
Highlands also had the Great Caledonian Forest. There was little imported
food in those days so it is obvious they were supporting themselves from the
land. The Highlands of today are but a shadow of the fertile place it once
was and a lot of the blame rests with the introduction of great numbers of
sheep and the owning of sporting estates.
--
Auld Bob
Adam Whyte-Settlar
"Fifeshire Floozie" <htr.@faeFife.com> wrote in message
news:7l9p84F...@mid.individual.net...
>
> "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote
>
>> Same goes for the strawberries. You can't even *buy* the varieties
>> I grew from regular seed merchants - it became illegal to sell them
>
> Why, pray tell?
A new EU law introduced in the late 80's (?) made it illegal to offer for
sale to the public any seed variety that didn't conform to minimum
germination standards and various other criteria.
To get any plant variety or culivar 'tested' and trial grown and 'approved'
by the relevant approved government body cost upwards of 10,000 quid even
back in the late 80's.
Effectively making it illegal to sell 1,000's of the old varieties as no
major seed company would put up the money unless they could guarantee enugh
sales to cover the cost.
Hence they disapeared from commercial catalogues. I don't think it was the
intention but it was certainly the effect.
http://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/hsl/index.php
Cory Bhreckan
Wetsuits are far more appropriate at those beaches.
> Well - not in public anyway.
> No middle-aged regrets.this side of the Atlantic.I can assure you.
>
>
Adam Whyte-Settlar
>
> Just after WWI the UK government had a scheme for returning soldiers. This
> came under the earlier, "Small Holdings & Allotments Acts", and some areas
> of Scotland saw the establishment of these small holdings. There were many
> in the Clyde Valley but around the Calders area of the Lothian where I was
> born there were quite a few well established Small Holdings. Most of these
> had become either Glasshouse establishments growing vegetable crops or
> were the forerunner to today's Garden Centres or Plant Nursery.
I grew up on one.
My Father's nursery and what today would be called a 'garden centre' was
originaly one of these 'Small Holdings' We had 11 acres.
He was a specialist tomato grower among other things. We didn't call them
'organic' back then - it was still just standard growing practice - but
today they would be.
However his most famous 'crop' was Gladioli flowers which were very popular
back then.
He won countless cups and prizes for them all over Hampshire. Even got a
'second' in the Southsea Flower Show - One of the biggest shows on the
entire South Coast.
We still had some of the cups until about 1987 when the house burnt to the
ground and we lost the lot.
The Phantom Piper
>
> Now you may not know this but vast areas of the Scottish Highlands
> used to support a very much larger population than they do today.
> Not to mention the Highlands also had the Great Caledonian Forest.
> There was little imported food in those days so it is obvious they were
> supporting themselves from the land. The Highlands of today are but
> a shadow of the fertile place it once was and a lot of the blame rests
> with the introduction of great numbers of sheep and the owning of
> sporting estates.
Yathink?!
I'm trying to imagine who here would _not_ know
(all of) that, and I'm drawing a blank... Still, it does
bear repeating. And you are _not_ *that* Old...
But as long as you're carrying on so well, why don't
you go even further back and talk about the damage
done by the Normanisation started under Ceann Mor
and 'St.' Maggie? The introduction of Feudal Law
governing land rights, and the beginning of the end
of the Clan System, the Old Church, and Elective
Kingship.
100 years from now it'll all be suburbs of 'Glasburgh'.
"Progress," That's Called,
The Phantom Piper