Russia vs. Latvia: Stalinists vs. Nazis
anza...@hotmail.com
In the process, both sides are taking more and more extreme positions,
that start to glorify the ugliest pages in the history of Europe:
Nazism and Stalinism.
The offensive belongs to the Latvian side. Antonijs Zunda, , the
history advisor to the President of Latvia recently co-wrote a book
titled "The History of Latvia in 20th Century" . The book definitely
contains a chapter devoted to WWII, which tries to prove that the
Latvians, who served in the nazi SS units made the right decision
because they "chose the much lesser of two evils", the greater evil
being Communism.
The book contains a chapter on Salaspils, the Nazi death camp located
in Latvia. This concentration camp was organized and managed by the
German Nazis, but manned by local Latvian Nazis. Many newspapers report
that the book says that the camp, which can be referred to as the
"Baltic Auschwitz", was an "extended police prison, a work camp." Many
more newspapers report that the book goes even further and calls
Salaspils "a police prison and educational labor facility".
I wonder what kind of "education" the imprisoned Jewish women and
children were getting in Salaspils. How the Jews are guilty of
"crimes against the Aryan and Latvian nations"? Or how to burn in
crematoria?
The Latvian President isn't making the matters any better. The World
is preparing to celebrate the 60th anniversary ofhappiest day in World
history: the defeat of the Nazi Germany at the hands of the Alles:
USSR, USA and Britain. This Holiday is especially revered in Russia and
Ukriane, countries that sacrificed almost 30 million people to the
defeat of the Nazis, the coutries whose soldiers conquered Nazi Berlin
in May 1945.
Latvian President Vaira Vike-Freiberga decided to give her own reason
as to why the Rusisan people celebrate the Victory over Nazism; "On May
9, Russian people will place a Caspian roach on a newspaper, drink
vodka, sing folk songs, and recall how they had heroically conquered
the Baltic area," RIA-Novosti cited her saying Friday. In other words,
the only reason why the Soviet soldiers defeated Nazism was to enslave
the Baltic people.
The Russian side is not keeping quiet either. Of course, the President
of Russia,his advisors and all other members of the Rusisan Government
are civilized and smart enough not to make public idiots of themselves,
the way the Latvian officials are doing. But the left-wing members of
the Rusisan Parliament are seen all over the Russian TV spreading all
kinds of idiotic apologies for the Soviet occupation of the Baltics in
1940.
Many of them claim that Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia VOLUNTARILY
joined the Soviet Union and that the governments of these countries
officially asked Stalin's government to send troops to occupy them.
Other, a bit more sophisticated politicians claim that what the Baltic
countries had signen a Mutual Military Assistance pacts with USSR and
thus made the Soviet occupation of the Baltic countries legal.
Curiously, the texts of these supposed agreements between USSR, Latvia,
Lithuania and Estonia are never sited.
Even assuming that such pacts between USSR and all three - Latvia,
Lithuania and Estonia - existed, it is not clear how these pacts can
possibly justify occupation. First of all, these would have been
ASSISTNCE treaties, not OCCUPATION and ANNEXATION treaties.
And second, these pacts became relevant only if one of the signatories
WAS ATTACKED BY A FOREIGN POWER. But none of the four countires was
attacked by anybody in 1940. The only country that attacked the Baltic
states in 1940 was the Soviet Union itself! It becomes a rather
ridiculous claim: "We committed aggression against the Baltic states
in order to defend them against our aggression!"
mart...@joymail.com
That seems to be a reasonable summary. However the Salaspils camp
description is contained within one paragraph of that history book that
otherwise makes for a fairly honest account of Latvia's involvement in
WW2. It says alot about Moscow when it resorts to focusing upon this
one paragraph and ignoring the rest. Moscow has a definite Baltophobic
tendency. I recall the outrage in the Russian media when Estonia closed
four Russian language schools in Tallinn. They neglected to mention
that seven Estonian lanuage schools were also being closed down. All
eleven schools were closed down because of declining student numbers...
regards,
Martin
Eugene Holman
mart...@joymail.com wrote:
<deletions>
> That seems to be a reasonable summary. However the Salaspils camp
> description is contained within one paragraph of that history book that
> otherwise makes for a fairly honest account of Latvia's involvement in
> WW2. It says alot about Moscow when it resorts to focusing upon this
> one paragraph and ignoring the rest. Moscow has a definite Baltophobic
> tendency. I recall the outrage in the Russian media when Estonia closed
> four Russian language schools in Tallinn. They neglected to mention
> that seven Estonian lanuage schools were also being closed down. All
> eleven schools were closed down because of declining student numbers...
Since about 40% of Tallinn's inhabitants are Russian speaking, four out of
eleven is right in line with what we would expect.
Regards,
Eugene Holoman
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
You completely mischaracterize what's written in the history book
(Daina Bleiere, Ilgvars Butulis, Inesis Feldmanis, Aivars Stranga,
Antonijs Zunda, _Latvijas vēsture: 20. gadsimts_. Rīga: Jumava,
2005.) -- there are 59 pages devoted to the German occupation in the
Latvian version, quite a lot for a 444-page book that covers an entire
century -- the nature of all of the concentration camps and other
facilities and organs of Nazi oppression is discussed in detail, as is
Latvian collaboration.
The German term for the Salaspils camp, which was indeed "Erweitertes
Polizeigefängnis und Arbeitserziehungslager" is given in a caption to
a drawing by an inmate -- the book consists of a series of lectures by
serious historians, and terms like "the Baltic Auschwitz" don't have a
place in such a history.
Salaspils and Auschwitz cannot be compared. Salspils was run by the SD
-- unlike concentration camps, which were run by the SS. There's a
document in which Himmler describes what must be done to "upgrade" the
facility to the status of a concentration camp under SS control. It was
never "upgraded."
For a succinct look at the problems with Soviet historiography, see
http://www.vip.lv/LPRA/EZERG_intr.html
You also completely misrepresent the Latvian president's views. She has
said time and again that Latvians celebrate the defeat of Nazism --
that is why she accepted the invitation to the celebrations in Moscow.
The trouble is that the defeat of Nazism was also the victory of
Stalinism -- instead of liberating Eastern Europe, the Soviets enslaved
it. It was the Soviets, who concluded a pact with Hitler and helped him
dismember Poland, who occupied Latvia in 1940.
The conflict you imply in your header for this thread does not exist --
many ethnic Latvians were held at Salaspils, too, by the way; when it
was completed in September 1942, it housed primarily Latvians and
Slavs. The conflict between Russia and Latvia (and most of Eastern
Europe) would better be described as Stalinism vs. democracy, or
Stalinism vs. historical truth.
Regards,
/P
Lady Chatterly
=?windows-1257?q?P=E7teris_Cedri=F2=F0_(Peteris_Cedrins)?=
<ced...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>You completely mischaracterize what's written in the history book
>(Daina Bleiere, Ilgvars Butulis, Inesis Feldmanis, Aivars Stranga,
>2005.) -- there are 59 pages devoted to the German occupation in the
>Latvian version, quite a lot for a 444-page book that covers an entire
>century -- the nature of all of the concentration camps and other
>facilities and organs of Nazi oppression is discussed in detail, as is
>Latvian collaboration.
000 a month or so I have to wonder what attack I made while supporting
you.
>The German term for the Salaspils camp, which was indeed "Erweitertes
>Polizeigef=E4ngnis und Arbeitserziehungslager" is given in a caption to
>a drawing by an inmate -- the book consists of a series of lectures by
>serious historians, and terms like "the Baltic Auschwitz" don't have a
>place in such a history.
Hew sees himself, is not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses,
affections, passions.
>Salaspils and Auschwitz cannot be compared. Salspils was run by the SD
>-- unlike concentration camps, which were run by the SS. There's a
>document in which Himmler describes what must be done to "upgrade" the
>facility to the status of a concentration camp under SS control. It was
>never "upgraded."
He is a good thing, and I Will be able to do with the name of the
universe is a good thing, and I Will be able to read.
>For a succinct look at the problems with Soviet historiography, see
Even if you do not know what you are not.
>You also completely misrepresent the Latvian president's views. She has
>said time and again that Latvians celebrate the defeat of Nazism --
>that is why she accepted the invitation to the celebrations in Moscow.
>The trouble is that the defeat of Nazism was also the victory of
>Stalinism -- instead of liberating Eastern Europe, the Soviets enslaved
>it. It was the Soviets, who concluded a pact with Hitler and helped him
>dismember Poland, who occupied Latvia in 1940.
Reposting the work to.
>The conflict you imply in your header for this thread does not exist --
>many ethnic Latvians were held at Salaspils, too, by the way; when it
>was completed in September 1942, it housed primarily Latvians and
>Slavs. The conflict between Russia and Latvia (and most of Eastern
>Europe) would better be described as Stalinism vs. democracy, or
>Stalinism vs. historical truth.=20
I am not sure I understand the question.
>Regards,
>/P
49.
--
Lady Chatterly
"Damn, even the bot does grammar lames." -- Aratzio
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
Ishyo po sto? Ribku?
/P
mart...@joymail.com
>
> For a succinct look at the problems with Soviet historiography, see
>
> http://www.vip.lv/LPRA/EZERG_intr.html
A very interesting read. Ofcourse the purpose of Soviet historiography
relating to Latvia was to "prove" that Latvians were congenital Nazi
collaborators, and therefore justify the annexation and the subsequent
oppressive occupational policies directed against the Latvian nation.
It is also pretty obvious when you read the RIA/Novosti site that this
Soviet historiography has be resurrected by the current Russian
government.
Regards,
Martin
Lady Chatterly
=?windows-1257?q?P=E7teris_Cedri=F2=F0_(Peteris_Cedrins)?=
<ced...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Ishyo po sto? Ribku?
Why aren't people asking how we are dealing with poverty, AIDS,
abortion, and drugs?
>/P
168.
--
Lady Chatterly
"LC is far more *interesting* than the kOOkologists any day of the
week." -- hoof
MirTopolskiRexPrez
> Anzaurres wrote:
>> Latvian President Vaira Vike-Freiberga decided to give her own reason
>> as to why the Rusisan people celebrate the Victory over Nazism; "On May
>> 9, Russian people will place a Caspian roach on a newspaper, drink
>> vodka, sing folk songs, and recall how they had heroically conquered
>> the Baltic area," RIA-Novosti cited her saying Friday.
> You also completely misrepresent the Latvian president's views. She has
> said time and again that Latvians celebrate the defeat of Nazism --
Not that Latvian president's views is my biz, but my logic just wonders
how could she & her parents leave Latvia for Germany as refugees in 1944
without Nazism's friendly help?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaira_Vike-Freiberga
> Vaira Vīķe-Freiberga (born December 1, 1937 in Riga, Latvia) is the
> current president of Latvia. [...]
> Vaira Vīķe-Freiberga's parents were World War II refugees. They left
> Latvia in 1944 and lived in several countries: Germany, Morocco and
> Canada.
Eugene Holman
> Peteris Cedrins wrote:
> > Anzaurres wrote:
> >> Latvian President Vaira Vike-Freiberga decided to give her own reason
> >> as to why the Rusisan people celebrate the Victory over Nazism; "On May
> >> 9, Russian people will place a Caspian roach on a newspaper, drink
> >> vodka, sing folk songs, and recall how they had heroically conquered
> >> the Baltic area," RIA-Novosti cited her saying Friday.
> > Anzaurres,
> > You also completely misrepresent the Latvian president's views. She has
> > said time and again that Latvians celebrate the defeat of Nazism --
>
> Not that Latvian president's views is my biz, but my logic just wonders
> how could she & her parents leave Latvia for Germany as refugees in 1944
> without Nazism's friendly help?
<deletions>
Just as the invasion of Latvia by the Nazis in 1940 resulted in a
momentary collapse of civil society that gave many Latvian Jews the
opportunity to leave the country with the retreating Soviet government and
military, the collapse of the German civil government in Ostland offered
many anti-communist Latvians the opportunity to leave with the German
officials and military and either go to displaced persons camps in Germany
or try to make it to a neutral country such as Sweden.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
MirTopolskiRexPrez
OK. So just like "many Latvian Jews" who left Latvia with Soviet
friendly help, those "many anti-communist Latvians" left Latvia with
Nazi friendly help. After all "German officials and military" of 1944
are usually referred to as Nazis. It's a plausible conjecture that the
average living representatives of both categories remain, at least
subconsciously, Soviet or Nazi sympathizers, respectively.
Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins)
Not plausible at all. Look at who _entered_ Latvia -- some of my
favorite Latvian socialists went into exile under Ulmanis and returned
under Soviet occupation, for example, like Felikss Cielens; under the
Nazis,some of my favorite nationalists, like Gustavs Celminš, who
became part of the Resistance.
The Germans were quite thorough, and when withdrawing they not only
gave the opportunity to escape the returning Bolsheviks -- they even
dragged some supposed "collaborators" with them in their attempt to
preserve them from Russian retribution.
A "sympathizer" is one who sympathizes. The vast majority had no
sympathies for either regime -- they were simply caught up in the
occupation, conscripted or otherwise enlisted; by the time the Soviets
reached Latvia, that went down to kids, many of whom were drafted into
service. Nobody had any illusions about what they would suffer under
the Russians -- the Russians had been here already, remember?
For example, a traffic cop under the Germans would be seen as a "Nazi
sympathizer" by the Soviets.
Resisting being a traffic cop would require an excuse.
Your insinuations, Topolski, are as crappy as most of what you write.
/P
Aleks
enough bombs to destroy Riga, demolished the railroad bridge across Daugava,
The Blackhead's. I think Hotel De Rome was destroyed by the Soviets during
the "liberation". Germans cared nothing for Latvia.
Incidentally, I've been reading about Gustavs Celmins. Quite an
interestingly frightening character. Do you know where I could get more
information: latvians.lv closed down its history section for obvious
reasons.
Aleks
"Peteris Cedrins (Peteris Cedrins)" <ced...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1114968356.7...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
MirTopolskiRexPrez
> MirTopolskiRexPrez wrote:
>> OK. So just like "many Latvian Jews" who left Latvia with Soviet
>> friendly help, those "many anti-communist Latvians" left Latvia with
>> Nazi friendly help. After all "German officials and military" of 1944
>> are usually referred to as Nazis. It's a plausible conjecture that the
>> average living representatives of both categories remain, at least
>> subconsciously, Soviet or Nazi sympathizers, respectively.
> favorite Latvian socialists went into exile under Ulmanis and returned
> under Soviet occupation, for example, like Felikss Cielens; under the
> Nazis,some of my favorite nationalists, like Gustavs Celminš, who
> became part of the Resistance.
> The Germans were quite thorough, and when withdrawing they not only
> gave the opportunity to escape the returning Bolsheviks -- they even
> dragged some supposed "collaborators" with them in their attempt to
> preserve them from Russian retribution.
> A "sympathizer" is one who sympathizes. The vast majority had no
> sympathies for either regime
Nonsense. The vast majority always sympathizes with one and only one
side ... it's always a tiny bunch of hmm intellectuals who can think
independently. I suppose that Latvian Prez does not belong to the latter
species. Actually this follows from her "Russian people will place a
Caspian roach on a newspaper, drink vodka, sing folk songs" that could
just as well be revealed by Heinrich Himmler in one of his infamous
"philosophical" SS lectures on racial sci.
> Your insinuations, Topolski, are as crappy as most of what you write.
LOL. And you don't belong to that "thinking" minority either, Cedrinski ...
J. Anderson
"Aleks" <al...@altaboutlatvia.com> wrote in message
news:d5357i$2rsn$1...@msunews.cl.msu.edu...
> This is probably off-topic, but, Germans, when withdrawing, also placed
> enough bombs to destroy Riga, demolished the railroad bridge across
Daugava,
> The Blackhead's.
The Blackhead's? I've understood that the area between the church (St.
Peter) and the river was destroyed through the fighting for the Akmens tilts
bridgehead.
What purpose would it have served to blow up the Blackhead's House? In any
case, what was left of the building was actually blown up by the next set of
occupiers.
John
mart...@joymail.com
> Peteris Cedrins wrote:
> > MirTopolskiRexPrez wrote:
> >> OK. So just like "many Latvian Jews" who left Latvia with Soviet
> >> friendly help, those "many anti-communist Latvians" left Latvia
with
> >> Nazi friendly help. After all "German officials and military" of
1944
> >> are usually referred to as Nazis. It's a plausible conjecture that
the
> >> average living representatives of both categories remain, at least
> >> subconsciously, Soviet or Nazi sympathizers, respectively.
> > Not plausible at all. Look at who _entered_ Latvia -- some of my
> > favorite Latvian socialists went into exile under Ulmanis and
returned
> > under Soviet occupation, for example, like Felikss Cielens; under
the
> > became part of the Resistance.
> > The Germans were quite thorough, and when withdrawing they not only
> > gave the opportunity to escape the returning Bolsheviks -- they
even
> > dragged some supposed "collaborators" with them in their attempt to
> > preserve them from Russian retribution.
> > A "sympathizer" is one who sympathizes. The vast majority had no
> > sympathies for either regime
>
> Nonsense. The vast majority always sympathizes with one and only one
> side ...
Don't be stupid. The majority had no sympathies for either side, but
only desired independance from both sides.
Regards,
Martin
MirTopolskiRexPrez
> MirTopolskiRexPrez wrote:
>> Nonsense. The vast majority always sympathizes with one and only one
>> side ...
Sci sez No. Global events like WW2 always divide the majority of
bystanders into two fan clubs - everywhere (not only in Baltia).
Martin
"MirTopolskiRexPrez" <b...@black.hole> wrote in message
news:d53i01$ul1$1...@online.de...
No. Only those who wish to hide the fact that neutral Baltics were occupied
in 1940 by Hilter's Molotov-Ribbentrop partner Stalin claim there was only
two sides. Then it make it easier to associate neutral Baltic's desire for
independance as fascist.
While today's Russia claims that their soldiers fought to save their state
from destruction and enslavement, they cannot see that in 1940 they did in
fact destroy and enslave the independant and neutral Baltic states. They
cannot see that Baltic soldiers fighting the Red Army were fighting to save
their state from destruction and enslavement by the Soviet Union.
Regards,
Martin
MirTopolskiRexPrez
> "MirTopolskiRexPrez" wrote:
>> mart...@joymail.com wrote:
>>> MirTopolskiRexPrez wrote:
>>>> Nonsense. The vast majority always sympathizes with one and only one
>>>> side ...
>>> The majority had no sympathies for either side,
>> Sci sez No. Global events like WW2 always divide the majority of
>> bystanders into two fan clubs - everywhere (not only in Baltia).
> No. Only those who wish to hide the fact that neutral Baltics were occupied
> in 1940 by Hilter's Molotov-Ribbentrop partner Stalin claim there was only
> two sides.
Disclaimer. MTRP has no desire to hide the fact that Baltic states were
occupied in 1940 by Hilter's Molotov-Ribbentrop partner Stalin *and*
MTRP claims that the majority of Baltic inhabitants (and any other group
of earthlings) were either Soviet or German sympathizers.
Aleks
"J. Anderson" <fer...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:d53fru$mni$1...@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi...
>
> "Aleks" <al...@altaboutlatvia.com> wrote in message
> news:d5357i$2rsn$1...@msunews.cl.msu.edu...
>> This is probably off-topic, but, Germans, when withdrawing, also placed
>> enough bombs to destroy Riga, demolished the railroad bridge across
> Daugava,
>> The Blackhead's.
>
> The Blackhead's? I've understood that the area between the church (St.
> Peter) and the river was destroyed through the fighting for the Akmens
> tilts
> bridgehead.
It is an old building. Now rebuilt.
>
> What purpose would it have served to blow up the Blackhead's House? In any
> case, what was left of the building was actually blown up by the next set
> of
> occupiers.
It is interesting that Soviets didn't restore it. I agree. However, the
point was: Germans were willing to blow up Riga before leaving it for the
Russians....
Aleks
normund
Uzytkownik <anza...@hotmail.com> napisal w wiadomosci
news:1114916410....@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> I wonder what kind of "education" the imprisoned Jewish women and
> children were getting in Salaspils. How the Jews are guilty of
> "crimes against the Aryan and Latvian nations"? Or how to burn in
> crematoria?
Jebkuram manipulacijam ir savas robezas un tiem mesliem kas so te raksta man
tie 9g nebutu zel ...
anza...@hotmail.com
>-- unlike concentration camps, which were run by the SS. There's a
>document in which Himmler describes what must be done to "upgrade" the
>facility to the status of a concentration camp under SS control. It
was
>never "upgraded."
I have to admit that I am not an expert on the logistical details of
running death camps. If you claim that certain repairs, necessary for
the "honorable" title of "concentration camp", were not made - I will
believe you. You are the expert.
What I want to know is: were tens of thousands of innocent human beings
- primarily Jewish women and children - kept there in horrible
conditions and did tens of thousands of them die there?
I leave up to you to discuss the burning question, as to which elite
Nazi force was in charge of exterminating human beings there: SS or SD.
To be honest, I wouldn't be able to tell one from the other. Nor see
any reason to bother with it.
anza...@hotmail.com
> Just as the invasion of Latvia by the Nazis in 1940
Eugene, did Germany invade Latvia in 1940?
anza...@hotmail.com
>Jebkuram manipulacijam ir savas robezas un tiem mesliem >kas so te
raksta man tie 9g nebutu zel ...
Ne ponyal. A po-angliyski - slabo?
«Pas de deux»
news:1114991649.6...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> I have to admit that I am not an expert on the logistical details of
> running death camps.
Then why bring it up. Go to hell. And take the Red Army medal-wearing
"liberators" with you.
anzau...@hotmail.com
><anzaur...@hotmail.com> wrote
>>Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
>>>Salaspils and Auschwitz cannot be compared. Salspils was run by the
SD
>>>-- unlike concentration camps, which were run by the SS. There's a
>>>document in which Himmler describes what must be done to "upgrade"
the
>>>facility to the status of a concentration camp under SS control. It
>>>was never "upgraded."
>> I have to admit that I am not an expert on the logistical details of
>> running death camps.
>Then why bring it up.
Why did Peteris Cedrins bring up the issue as to whether the Salaspils
death camp was administered by Nazi SS or Nazi SD?
I am not sure. Ask him. I am not even Latvian. My guess is that to a a
pedantic Germanic mind, it is important to know which exactly
department was in charge of which death camp. I am not making fun of
the germanic pedantism. This is serious. Without pedantism, Germany
wouldn't have been able to execute such a complicated logistical
undertaking as the extermination of 5 million Jews and tens of millions
of Slavs.
> Go to hell. And take the Red Army medal-wearing
> "liberators" with you.
What the two of don't realize is that you are giving evidence to the
argument of my opponents that Nazi-apologists make up a very high
percentage of Latvians.
J. Anderson
>
> "J. Anderson" <fer...@mail.com> wrote in message
> news:d53fru$mni$1...@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi...
> >
> > "Aleks" <al...@altaboutlatvia.com> wrote in message
> > news:d5357i$2rsn$1...@msunews.cl.msu.edu...
> >> This is probably off-topic, but, Germans, when withdrawing, also placed
> >> enough bombs to destroy Riga, demolished the railroad bridge across
> > Daugava,
> >> The Blackhead's.
> >
> > The Blackhead's? I've understood that the area between the church (St.
> > Peter) and the river was destroyed through the fighting for the Akmens
> > tilts
> > bridgehead.
>
> It is an old building. Now rebuilt.
I know. I've been taking a series of pictures of it throughout the
construction period. From the top of the St. Peter tower. On the first
picture you can see only the general outline marked out on the square.
> > What purpose would it have served to blow up the Blackhead's House? In
any
> > case, what was left of the building was actually blown up by the next
set
> > of
> > occupiers.
>
> It is interesting that Soviets didn't restore it. I agree.
The reason was obviously that it symbolized the German burgher tradition.
More than any other building in Riga. Perhaps it was good that they didn't
try to reconstruct it. In that case it would probably be ready for another
reconstruction by now.
Another example was the royal Prussian castle in Berlin. Instead of
rebuilding it, the ruins were blown up by the Communists. As a symbolic act.
Now the Berlin senate is discussing a reconstruction...
> However, the
> point was: Germans were willing to blow up Riga before leaving it for the
> Russians....
Such was the tactic in WWII. I'm sure you know that the Red Army applied the
'scorched earth' during the retreat phase in 1941 -- on their own territory!
The Germans destroyed Lapland (one third of Finland) when we forced them out
of this country in 1944-5.
Blowing up bridges is a necessary act of military expediency. Destroying
cultural legacy is not. But let's not forget that the Allied terror bombing
of German cities had as one disguised purpose the aim to eradicate cultural
values.
John
J. Anderson
"MirTopolskiRexPrez" <b...@black.hole> wrote in message
>
> Disclaimer. MTRP has no desire to hide the fact that Baltic states were
> occupied in 1940 by Hilter's Molotov-Ribbentrop partner Stalin *and*
> MTRP claims that the majority of Baltic inhabitants (and any other group
> of earthlings) were either Soviet or German sympathizers.
Perhaps MTRP claims that people in Scandinavia also were either Soviet or
Nazi sympathizers? That only shows how little MTRP knows.
In democracies public opinion can easily be measured by election results. We
had Nazi-sympathizing parties in all the Nordic countries. In Finland, the
extreme right had 8 of the 200 seats in our parliament. The extreme left was
prohibited, and its most ardent advocates were either in hiding or
imprisoned. But for understandable reasons the Stalin fan club was quite
small in Finland during the war.
The result: 90 % of the population loathed both Hitler and Stalin and hoped
that they would annihilate each other. The sooner, the better.
John
ladzius
one tends to get that kind of (de)(il)lusions ;-)
Ladzuzs.
MirTopolskiRexPrez
> "MirTopolskiRexPrez" wrote:
>> Disclaimer. MTRP has no desire to hide the fact that Baltic states were
>> occupied in 1940 by Hilter's Molotov-Ribbentrop partner Stalin *and*
>> MTRP claims that the majority of Baltic inhabitants (and any other group
>> of earthlings) were either Soviet or German sympathizers.
> Perhaps MTRP claims that people in Scandinavia also were either Soviet or
> Nazi sympathizers? That only shows how little MTRP knows.
Hey, it was J. Anderson who argued that most Finns were Nazi
sympathizers, in that they wished (at least initially) the 3d Reich to
win WW2!
> In democracies public opinion can easily be measured by election results. We
> had Nazi-sympathizing parties in all the Nordic countries. In Finland, the
> extreme right had 8 of the 200 seats in our parliament. The extreme left was
> prohibited, and its most ardent advocates were either in hiding or
> imprisoned. But for understandable reasons the Stalin fan club was quite
> small in Finland during the war.
>
> The result: 90 % of the population loathed both Hitler and Stalin and hoped
> that they would annihilate each other. The sooner, the better.
Where's the proof? Sci sez the majority is never neutral ... it's like
watching Godzilla vs T.Rex-Stegosaurus & Co movies ...
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
"To be honest, I wouldn't be able to tell one from the other. Nor see
any reason to bother with it. "
You began this thread by making comments about a book of history you
very obviously have not read, suggesting that the book tries to
minimize the Holocaust. The book does _not_ do that, and that is _not_
the intent of the book.
Now you are basically saying you don't care and making insupportable
accusations about "Germanic pedantry" and Nazi apologists... excuse me,
but don't you think history books _ought_ to bother with details?
Salaspils, horrible as it was, was not a "death camp" in the sense that
Auschwitz was. A death camp is a facility built with the intention of
exterminating people, in which people are systematically killed, and
from which few inmates emerge alive.
Primarily Jewish women and children? Not exactly. It was for a time a
transit camp; but as I pointed out before, Salaspils held large numbers
of Russians and Latvians also (for instance, deserters from the
Legion). Ca. 300 Belarusian children also died there.
Salaspils at its most crowded could only hold 2000-3000 persons; that
is a far cry from the 53 000 + Soviet propaganda claims it held.
Of the ca. 12 000 people held at Salaspils between 1941 and 1944, ca.
one-sixth, or 2000 people, lost their lives.
I already gave you a link to a text which explains some of the problems
with Soviet historiography --
http://www.vip.lv/LPRA/EZERG_intr.html
There were other camps in Latvia, and other sites where mass killings
occured, and almost all of Latvia's Jews were murdered, some of them
murdered with Latvian help. Nobody is trying to deny that or look for
excuses for it.
_You_ complained about how Salaspils was supposedly termed; I merely
answered, explaining that the official name for the Salaspils was given
(amid 59 pp. that detail the Nazi occupation).
Sorry, but dismantling Soviet propaganda about the Holocaust is an
important task. It does not mean minimizing the Holocaust or making
apologies.
The Soviet propaganda had a purpose, and as Martin pointed out it is
currently being dragged out by RIA-Novosti -- the same stuff, like what
Jeckeln supposedly said (see the links above) is being recycled to try
to paint all Balts as natural born Nazis.
People like you, Anzaurre, distorting what is said and focusing on
parts of the propaganda -- e.g., a one-line caption in a lengthy book
and one sentence from Vaira Vīķe-Freiberga, taken out of context --
are amateur propagadists, basically. If it's "pedantry" to point out
that you are dead wrong, so be it.
/P
J. Anderson
"MirTopolskiRexPrez" <b...@black.hole> wrote in message
> J. Anderson wrote:
> > "MirTopolskiRexPrez" wrote:
> >> Disclaimer. MTRP has no desire to hide the fact that Baltic states were
> >> occupied in 1940 by Hilter's Molotov-Ribbentrop partner Stalin *and*
> >> MTRP claims that the majority of Baltic inhabitants (and any other
group
> >> of earthlings) were either Soviet or German sympathizers.
> > Perhaps MTRP claims that people in Scandinavia also were either Soviet
or
> > Nazi sympathizers? That only shows how little MTRP knows.
>
> Hey, it was J. Anderson who argued that most Finns were Nazi
> sympathizers, in that they wished (at least initially) the 3d Reich to
> win WW2!
Hey, hey, surely you must understand the difference between being a 'Nazi
sympathizer' and hoping that your worst enemy (the USSR) got beaten by that
other madman.
All over western Europe people were hoping that Hitler and the Nazis would
get wiped out by the Red Army. That didn't make the western Europeans
'Commie sympathizers', did it?
Learn to deal with nuances!
> > In democracies public opinion can easily be measured by election
results. We
> > had Nazi-sympathizing parties in all the Nordic countries. In Finland,
the
> > extreme right had 8 of the 200 seats in our parliament. The extreme left
was
> > prohibited, and its most ardent advocates were either in hiding or
> > imprisoned. But for understandable reasons the Stalin fan club was quite
> > small in Finland during the war.
> >
> > The result: 90 % of the population loathed both Hitler and Stalin and
hoped
> > that they would annihilate each other. The sooner, the better.
>
> Where's the proof? Sci sez the majority is never neutral ... it's like
> watching Godzilla vs T.Rex-Stegosaurus & Co movies ...
The majority (those 90 %) was not 'neutral' -- it represented democracy as
opposed to totalitarianism of whatever colour.
WWII was a struggle between democracy and totalitarianism. It ended not in
1945 but in 1991. This is something that Putin and the rest of the
'Ewiggestrigen' will never understand. We'll probably have to wait until
2050 before Russia has been purified from Soviet nostalgia.
MirTopolskiRexPrez
> "MirTopolskiRexPrez" wrote:
>> J. Anderson wrote:
>>> "MirTopolskiRexPrez" wrote:
>>>> Disclaimer. MTRP has no desire to hide the fact that Baltic states were
>>>> occupied in 1940 by Hilter's Molotov-Ribbentrop partner Stalin *and*
>>>> MTRP claims that the majority of Baltic inhabitants (and any other
>>>> group of earthlings) were either Soviet or German sympathizers.
>>> Perhaps MTRP claims that people in Scandinavia also were either Soviet
>>> or Nazi sympathizers? That only shows how little MTRP knows.
>> Hey, it was J. Anderson who argued that most Finns were Nazi
>> sympathizers, in that they wished (at least initially) the 3d Reich to
>> win WW2!
> Hey, hey, surely you must understand the difference between being a 'Nazi
> sympathizer' and hoping that your worst enemy (the USSR) got beaten by that
> other madman.
OK, we can agree on such "weak sympathy".
> All over western Europe people were hoping that Hitler and the Nazis would
> get wiped out by the Red Army. That didn't make the western Europeans
> 'Commie sympathizers', did it?
In a weak sense, yes, that did. Stalin was very popular in France and
Italy and elsewhere too ...
> Learn to deal with nuances!
I'm aware of those funny little guys. All I claim is that in an all-out
global war only the minority can be truly neutral, and that then back in
1944 Latvian Prez' family was *more* pro-Nazi than pro-Soviet. It might
have been merely a "relative" sympathy ... after all nobody seriously
argued that many Latvians (or Germans) were big fans of the Endloesung ...
>>> In democracies public opinion can easily be measured by election
>>> results. We had Nazi-sympathizing parties in all the Nordic countries.
>>> In Finland, the extreme right had 8 of the 200 seats in our parliament.
>>> The extreme left was prohibited, and its most ardent advocates were
>>> either in hiding or imprisoned. But for understandable reasons the
>>> Stalin fan club was quite small in Finland during the war.
>>> The result: 90 % of the population loathed both Hitler and Stalin and
>>> hoped that they would annihilate each other. The sooner, the better.
>> Where's the proof? Sci sez the majority is never neutral ... it's like
>> watching Godzilla vs T.Rex-Stegosaurus & Co movies ...
> The majority (those 90 %) was not 'neutral' -- it represented democracy as
> opposed to totalitarianism of whatever colour.
> WWII was a struggle between democracy and totalitarianism. It ended not in
> 1945 but in 1991.
Now this is a purebred yankee crap! How come they brainwashed you too?
Shame! Have you been poisoned by US GM + MSG junk food? Anyway, US
totalitarism won its domestic battle on 9/11/01.
«Pas de deux»
news:1115010339.4...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
«Pas de deux» wrote:
><anzaur...@hotmail.com> wrote
>> running death camps.
. Where do you see an apology for Nazis, loser fuckwit?
«Pas de deux»
> We'll probably have to wait until 2050 before Russia has been purified
> from Soviet nostalgia.
Maybe even 2053! :-)
GK de Montréal
«Pas de deux»
> Now this is a purebred yankee crap! How come they brainwashed you too?
> Shame! Have you been poisoned by US GM + MSG junk food? Anyway, US
> totalitarism won its domestic battle on 9/11/01.
What are you on about, Tyrannosaurus? While I admit that Yankee "GM +
MSG junk food" is a problem for them, how the hell do you deduce that
"US totalitarism won its domestic battle on 9/11/01"? Maybe too much
"trou noir" for you?
GK de Montréal
J. Anderson
"MirTopolskiRexPrez" <b...@black.hole> wrote in message
> J. Anderson wrote:
> > WWII was a struggle between democracy and totalitarianism. It ended not
in
> > 1945 but in 1991.
> Now this is a purebred yankee crap! How come they brainwashed you too?
> Shame! Have you been poisoned by US GM + MSG junk food? Anyway, US
> totalitarism won its domestic battle on 9/11/01.
Oops, did I tread on your toes? No, I don't eat junk food, and I don't drink
their so-called beer.
But for the Baltic states (and for Finland!) WWII ended only with the
collapse of the USSR. After Yeltsin's 'Machtübernahme', the Baltics could
finally act independently. Simultaneously President Koivisto decided that
Finland would unilaterally discontinue our 'Friendship Pact' with the USSR
and apply for EU membership.
I see this process a little differently than you do. For us the
disappearance of the Soviet Union was an orgasmic experience. I only wish
that my father, who as an emigrant had been active in the NTS
(http://www.schoechi.de/crw-nts.html), could have seen that day.
For you it was (probably) a tragedy.
John
MirTopolskiRexPrez
> "MirTopolskiRexPrez" wrote:
>>> WWII was a struggle between democracy and totalitarianism. It ended not
>>> in 1945 but in 1991.
>> Now this is a purebred yankee crap! How come they brainwashed you too?
>> Shame! Have you been poisoned by US GM + MSG junk food? Anyway, US
>> totalitarism won its domestic battle on 9/11/01.
> Oops, did I tread on your toes? No, I don't eat junk food, and I don't drink
> their so-called beer.
OK ya' not lost yet, then ...
> But for the Baltic states (and for Finland!) WWII ended only with the
> collapse of the USSR. After Yeltsin's 'Machtübernahme', the Baltics could
> finally act independently. Simultaneously President Koivisto decided that
> Finland would unilaterally discontinue our 'Friendship Pact' with the USSR
> and apply for EU membership.
> I see this process a little differently than you do. For us the
> disappearance of the Soviet Union was an orgasmic experience. I only wish
> that my father, who as an emigrant had been active in the NTS
> (http://www.schoechi.de/crw-nts.html), could have seen that day.
> For you it was (probably) a tragedy.
U kidding? Not at all. After all I myself predicted the collapse of SU
already in 1980, although I too underestimated its degeneration. A
tragedy - for all earthlings! - happened later, as Nationalism and Great
Satan replaced already harmless SU zombie ...
MirTopolskiRexPrez
> "MirTopolskiRexPrez" wrote:
>> Now this is a purebred yankee crap! How come they brainwashed you too?
>> Shame! Have you been poisoned by US GM + MSG junk food? Anyway, US
>> totalitarism won its domestic battle on 9/11/01.
> What are you on about, Tyrannosaurus? While I admit that Yankee "GM +
> MSG junk food" is a problem for them, how the hell do you deduce that
> "US totalitarism won its domestic battle on 9/11/01"? Maybe too much
> "trou noir" for you?
No, I just know more than you do ...
CrustyTheClown
"MirTopolskiRexPrez" <b...@black.hole> wrote in message
That's a stretch.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> In article <d52h6p$9as$1...@online.de>, MirTopolskiRexPrez <b...@black.hole> wrote:
>
>
>>Peteris Cedrins wrote:
>>
>>>Anzaurres wrote:
>>>
>>>>Latvian President Vaira Vike-Freiberga decided to give her own reason
>>>>as to why the Rusisan people celebrate the Victory over Nazism; "On May
>>>>9, Russian people will place a Caspian roach on a newspaper, drink
>>>>vodka, sing folk songs, and recall how they had heroically conquered
>>>>the Baltic area," RIA-Novosti cited her saying Friday.
>>>
>>>Anzaurres,
>>>You also completely misrepresent the Latvian president's views. She has
>>>said time and again that Latvians celebrate the defeat of Nazism --
>>
>>Not that Latvian president's views is my biz, but my logic just wonders
>>how could she & her parents leave Latvia for Germany as refugees in 1944
>>without Nazism's friendly help?
>
>
> <deletions>
>
> Just as the invasion of Latvia by the Nazis in 1940 resulted in a
> momentary collapse of civil society that gave many Latvian Jews the
> opportunity to leave the country with the retreating Soviet government and
> military, the collapse of the German civil government in Ostland offered
> many anti-communist Latvians the opportunity to leave with the German
> officials and military and either go to displaced persons camps in Germany
> or try to make it to a neutral country such as Sweden.
>
> Regards,
> Eugene Holman
While the retreat of the Soviets in 1940 may have given the opportunity
for many Latvian Jews to leave with them to Russia, in many countries
when the Soviet forces advanced in 1943-44 people simply stuffed
what they could in suitcases and rucksacks and carts and prams
and fled west, however they could.
My parents fled, mostly on foot, with me in tow, as a squalling toddler.
We all had the experience of the Soviet occupation of 1939-40, and the
massacres of the intelligentsia by the Soviets when they were
leaving in 1940, (with their collaborators), to teach us what to expect.
My parents would sometimes recall in converstions with acquaintances,
going with their parents to search for and identify relatives among
the bodies of the murdered. My parents lost a brother and a sister
both school teachers there.
Regards
Rostyslaw Lewyckyj
normund
Uze moj ojcec skazal russkij ponimajet toljko togda, kogda dostajet
kirpichem w mordu. ja wsegda jego sluchal :)
MirTopolskiRexPrez
> "MirTopolskiRexPrez" wrote:
>> «Pas de deux» wrote:
>>> "MirTopolskiRexPrez" wrote:
>>>> Now this is a purebred yankee crap! How come they brainwashed you too?
>>>> Shame! Have you been poisoned by US GM + MSG junk food? Anyway, US
>>>> totalitarism won its domestic battle on 9/11/01.
>>> What are you on about, Tyrannosaurus? While I admit that Yankee "GM +
>>> MSG junk food" is a problem for them, how the hell do you deduce that
>>> "US totalitarism won its domestic battle on 9/11/01"? Maybe too much
>>> "trou noir" for you?
>> No, I just know more than you do ...
> That's a stretch.
MSG suxx. Brookski's French suxx 2.
mart...@joymail.com
Well according to Mir, during WW2 there were only two types of people,
Nazi sympathisers and Soviet sympathisers. Therefore the logical
conclusion of Mir's view is that anyone escaping from Soviet slaughter
can not be regarded as Soviet sympathisers, therefore they must have
been Nazi sympathisers.
Regards,
Martin
anzau...@hotmail.com
>Of the ca. 12 000 people held at Salaspils between 1941 and 1944, ca.
>one-sixth, or 2000 people, lost their lives.
>I already gave you a link to a text which explains some of the
problems
>with Soviet historiography --
>http://www.vip.lv/LPRA/EZERG_intr.html
I looked at the above link but could not find any mention of the 2000
figure that you cite. Where does it come from?
I conducted an Internet search for keywords "salaspils jews camp" and
found the following:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/ftp.py?camps/salaspils/jeckeln-interrogation.1245
The Interrogation of Friedrich Jeckeln. Minutes from Jeckeln's
interrogation on 14 December 1945 (Major Zwetajew, interrogator;
Sergeant Suur, interpreter), pp. 8-13, Historical State Archives, Riga.
Q: Then the number of Jews shot in Salaspils ought to be known too,
isn't that correct?
A: Yes, of course. I can give you the approximate figures. The first
Jewish convoys arrived in Salaspils in November 1941. Then, in the
first half of 1942, convoys arrived at
regular intervals. I believe that in November 1941, no more than
three convoys arrived in all, but during the next seven months,
from December 1941 to June 1942, eight to twelve convoys arrived each
month. Overall, in eight months, no less than fifty-five and no
more than eighty-seven Jewish convoys arrived at the camp. Given that
each convoy carried a thousand men, that makes a total of 55,000 to
87,000 Jews exterminated in the Salaspils
camp.
Q: This figure sounds low. Are you telling the truth?
A: I have no other, more exact figures. It should be added, however,
that before my arrival in
Riga, a significant number of Jews in the Ostland and in White
Ruthenia were exterminated. I was informed of this fact.
( Jeckeln was promoted on 31 October 1941 to Higher SS and Police
Leader for northern Russia (H.Q. Riga); Jeckeln, personnel file, Berlin
Document Center. A second promotion
to the rank of Leader of the SS Upper Section, "Ostland," occurred on
11 December 1941 (Bundesarchiv, Koblenz [NS 19neu/2846]).
Other quote from earlier parts of interrogation:
Q: What countries were the Jews in Salaspils brought from?
A: Jews were brought from Germany, France, Belgium, Holland,
Czechoslovakia, and from other occupied countries to the Salaspils
camp. ... In any case, all the Jews from this camp were exterminated.
But I would like to make an additional statement while we are on this
topic.
Q: What statement would you like to make?
A: I would like to state for the record that Goering shares in the
guilt for the liquidations of Jewish convoys that arrived from other
countries. In the first half of February 1942 I received a letter
from Heydrich. In this letter he wrote that Reich Marshal Goering had
gotten himself involved in the Jewish question, and that Jews were now
being shipped to the East for annihilation only with Goering's
approval.
Q: This does not diminish your guilt. Describe your role in the Jewish
liquidations in Salaspils.
A: I have already said that I discussed the extermination of Jews in
Salaspils with Himmler in Loetzen. That alone makes me an accessory to
this crime. Beyond that, Jews were shot
in the Salaspils camp by forces recruited from my SD and Security
Police units.
...
A: Stahlecker; Pruetzmann; Lange; Major General Schroder, the SS and
Police Leader in Latvia; Major General Moeller the SS and Police
Leader in Estonia; and Major General Wysocki the SS and Police
Leader in Lithuania.
Q: Be specific. What did they report?
A: Schroeder reported to me that over and above those Jews who had
been exterminated in the ghetto in Riga an additional 70,000
to 100,000 Jews were exterminated in
Latvia. Dr. Lange directly oversaw these shootings. "
End of quotes.
Let me repeat: one of the men, responsible for running the Salaspils
estimates the number of Jews (not counting other ethnicities!) to be
55,000 to 87,000! What reason would he have to overestimate the number
of his victims and make his own crimes look worse than they actually
were?
Or is it your claim that the Soviets modified his testimony in order to
increase the number of Jews that were killed in Nazi concentration
camps by a factor of 27 to 43? Why would the Soviets do that? Your own
site http://www.vip.lv/LPRA/EZERG_intr.html says:
"Dawidowicz reserved her harshest words for the Soviet historians,
whose works she termed "palimpsest history," because they rewrite
Holocaust history beyond recognition, to "demonstrate" that it was the
Jews themselves, the Zionists, who brought the tragedy onto
themselves."
The purpose of Soviets was TO BLAME THE JEWS! So why would they
increase the number of Jewish deaths in Salaspils?!
Site, quoted by you, does contain long, convoluted discussions of the
Jeckein trial, lacking any logical sense. Musings of a demagogue who
tries to prove some known only to him claims by drowning the reader in
a sea of irrelevant information... The only relevant thing I can see in
his musings is:
"The purpose of the Jeckein trial was to convict Jeckein and the
Nazis-not Latvians. Peteris Krupnikovs, now a professor of history at
the University of Latvia, served as an interpreter for the Soviet
interrogator and prosecutors prior to and during Jeckeln's trial. He
did not remember Jeckein in any context ever making any of the three
statements."
Of course not. Krupnikovs wasn't present when the above statements were
made. The interpreter during this interrogation was Sergeant Suur! The
author of your site is lying through his teeth, trying to make the
reader think that Krupnikovs was the interpreter during the
interrogation in question.
The rest of the text, quoted by you, seems to be equally demagogigal.
What I don't understand is why you guys are so hell-bent on denying the
human deaths at Salaspils? According to Jeckein, virtually all of the
people, responsible for the deaths in Salaspils, were Germans, not
Latvians.
Another thing: are you saying that most of the prizoners at Salaspils
were given complete freedom by the Nazis? If not - you guys have a huge
problem with the numbers that you quote:
>Salaspils at its most crowded could only hold 2000-3000 persons;
>Of the ca. 12 000 people held at Salaspils between 1941 and 1944, ca.
>one-sixth, or 2000 people, lost their lives.
Let's see. 2 000 died. The camp can hold at most 3 000. Thus, at most 3
000 more were liberated at the end of the War. That leaves:
12 000 - 2 000 - 3 000 = 7 000 thousand
unaccounted for. What happened to them? They didn't die. They were not
present when the camp was liberated. So where did they go?!
As a professor of math, I tell you that the only explanation for this
discrepancy is that some or all of these numbers are fabricated. And
when one fabricates facts, one should have enough math abilities to
make sure that these invented facts don't refute themselves.
Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins)
You're calling the foremost historian of the Holocaust in Latvia,
Andrievs Ezergailis, a demagogue.
My information comes from various sources -- Strods, Stranga, Kangeris.
As to "where did [the remainder] go" -- I said that Salaspils was for a
time a _transit_ camp. Not a few people were transferred to other
facilities, or killed elsewhere. As to why the Soviets would want to
inflate numbers -- I think that's sufficiently explained by Ezergailis.
I would also take care not to confuse the murder of the Jews in the
ghetto with Salaspils. If you read other Soviet material, you will find
absolutely bizarre figures for the numbers of those killed.
An interview with Kangeris --
http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/slepkarm.htm
Some information regarding Strods' study --
http://vip.latnet.lv/lpra/salaspils.htm
An interview with Strods --
http://www.tvnet.lv/news/latvia/index.php?id=4182774
I am not going to indulge in a fight about books you haven't read and
what the intent of historians is -- if you're seriously interested in
the subject; get the books, esp. Ezergailis' book (which is available
in English).
My point remains that you claim a book you haven't read has a
particular agenda. Your complaint was based on what Salaspils was
called in the book. You are wrong -- the book merely cites the official
name of the facility at Salaspils in a caption, as part of a lengthy
section on the Nazi occupation which includes information on the
Holocaust. The totals in the book for Jews are ca. 70 000 Latvian Jews
+ ca. 20 000 Jews from outside Latvia killed in Latvia 1941-44.
Your continued use of epithets about the "hell-bent" and "invented"
facts is ridiculous, sorry; obviously, there is going to be
disagreement among historians. There is no reason in the world to take
Jeckeln, in Soviet testimony, as the sole unimpeachale source. There
are other considerations -- the numbers Salaspils could physically hold
(which, btw, is the meaning of the SS/SD distinction, in part), records
from the camp, other testimony, etc.
I'm not qualified to make those determinations -- neither are you, o
mathematician. I trust historians to do that for me. All you are doing
is casting aspersions on the motives these historians might have, and
you do it without reading them.
/P
Eugene Holman
anza...@hotmail.com wrote:
No. The Soviets invaded in 1940. The Nazis invaded on June 22, 1941.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Eugene Holman
> J. Anderson wrote:
> > "MirTopolskiRexPrez" wrote:
> >> Disclaimer. MTRP has no desire to hide the fact that Baltic states were
> >> occupied in 1940 by Hilter's Molotov-Ribbentrop partner Stalin *and*
> >> MTRP claims that the majority of Baltic inhabitants (and any other group
> >> of earthlings) were either Soviet or German sympathizers.
> > Perhaps MTRP claims that people in Scandinavia also were either Soviet or
> > Nazi sympathizers? That only shows how little MTRP knows.
>
> Hey, it was J. Anderson who argued that most Finns were Nazi
> sympathizers, in that they wished (at least initially) the 3d Reich to
> win WW2!
Given what the USSR did to Finland on November 30, 1939, the desire of
most Finns to see Stalin's dictatorship crushed by the only country on
earth at the time with the wherewithall to do it hardly comes as a
surprise. Desiring to see the USSR whupped by Nazi Germany does not make
one a Nazi sympathizer, though. Finland, separated by a large body of
water from the Reich, but sharing a long border with the USSR and aware of
the fact that many people in the USSR were eager to solve the "Finnish
problem" by bringing Finland back into the "prisonhouse of nations",
obviously considered the USSR more of a threat to its security and future
than Nazi Germany.
> > In democracies public opinion can easily be measured by election results. We
> > had Nazi-sympathizing parties in all the Nordic countries. In Finland, the
> > extreme right had 8 of the 200 seats in our parliament. The extreme left was
> > prohibited, and its most ardent advocates were either in hiding or
> > imprisoned. But for understandable reasons the Stalin fan club was quite
> > small in Finland during the war.
> >
> > The result: 90 % of the population loathed both Hitler and Stalin and hoped
> > that they would annihilate each other. The sooner, the better.
>
> Where's the proof? Sci sez the majority is never neutral ... it's like
> watching Godzilla vs T.Rex-Stegosaurus & Co movies ...
One clear proof is that Finland wound up waging a nasty little warlet
against the withdrawing Germans in Lapland after it had concluded a
separate peace with the USSR in the fall of 1944. Another is that when
fighting alongside Germany against the USSR Finkland's democratic
institutions remained intact, teh country was never Nazified. Similarly,
during the precarious period concluding the separate peace with the USSR
and the 1947 Psigning of the Paris Peace Treaties, which effectively ended
the war and returned full sovereignty to Finland, the country's
institutions were never Sovietized, despite the presence of both a Soviet
base at Porkkala thirty kilometers from Helsinki and the Allied,
effectively, Soviet, Control Commission in Hotel Torni, right in the
center of Helsinki.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Eugene Holman
<fer...@mail.com> wrote:
<deletions>
> The majority (those 90 %) was not 'neutral' -- it represented democracy as
> opposed to totalitarianism of whatever colour.
>
> WWII was a struggle between democracy and totalitarianism. It ended not in
> 1945 but in 1991. This is something that Putin and the rest of the
> 'Ewiggestrigen' will never understand. We'll probably have to wait until
> 2050 before Russia has been purified from Soviet nostalgia.
One problem for the Russians is that they do not feel the kind of
responsibility for Stalin, who headed a group that had illegally usurped
power in the Russian Empire, replacing it with a new state baseed on
ideology rather than nationality and refusing to give any of it up, than
the Germans do for Hitler. Hitler, even if not supported by a majority of
Germans, came to power as the result of what were elections and subsequent
horse trading that were arguably free and fair by the standards of the
time and place. A state generally regarded as one of the most advanced in
the world had a temporary bout with self-imposed insanity, and its
citizenry is still dealing with the consequences three generations later.
It is thus easier for the Germans to accept responsibility for what Hitler
did and atone for it, since their system put him in power, but was not
strong enough to remove him. By the time WW II began Stalin had been in
power for nearly a generation, and millions of Soviet citizens had been
liquidated for defying his will or even for being suspected of wanting to
defy his will. It is thus easier, but hardly morally justified, for
Russians to take pride in the Soviet victory over Nazism while not wanting
to take any responsibility for the Nazi-like abuses of both their own
people and those of neighboring or unwillingly incorporated nations
committed by the Soviet regime in the name of advancing the cause of
communist ideology under the guise of what evolved into a variant of
Russian imperialism.
I personally think that we all have good reason to commemorate, not
necessarily in Moscow, the 60th anniversary of the victory over Nazism by
the Soviet Union, particularly since the victors have been open-minded
enough to invite the vanquished to commemorate the victory with them.
Commemorating the victory should not, however, lull people, including the
Russians, into forgetting that for tens of millions of people in Central
Europe the defeat of Nazism only meant the replacement of one murderous
system with another. For the great victory was achieved between 1989, when
the Berlin Wall was opened, and 1994, when the last occupying troops
withdrew from the Baltic countries to a post-communist, quasi-democratic
Russia.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Eugene Holman
<kamou...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
<deletions>
>
> Why did Peteris Cedrins bring up the issue as to whether the Salaspils
> death camp was administered by Nazi SS or Nazi SD?
>
> I am not sure. Ask him. I am not even Latvian. My guess is that to a a
> pedantic Germanic mind, it is important to know which exactly
> department was in charge of which death camp. I am not making fun of
> the germanic pedantism. This is serious. Without pedantism, Germany
> wouldn't have been able to execute such a complicated logistical
> undertaking as the extermination of 5 million Jews and tens of millions
> of Slavs.
There is an important difference. The Russians have taken umbrage at a
recently published Latvian book that characterizes Salaspils as an
"educational labor camp. In popular memory it is remembered as "the
Latvian Auschwitz", having a reputation as being one of the nastiest
concentration camps where large numbers of Jews and others were killed or
died due to the harsh conditions, and many of the guards were members of
the Latvian fascist Arājs commando.
Although SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln, the man who supervised
the construction of the Salaspils camp by Jews deported from Germany was a
member of the SS, his job in Ostland was that of Higher Police Officer, a
Sicherheitsdienst position. The original and primary function of Salaspils
was at least semi-legitimate: it housed Latvian pacifists, dissidents,
draft-dodgers and political opponents to the Nazi occupation, that is to
say, people who had violated the laws that were in force in Nazi-occupied
Latvia and been sentenced to prison terms. They could be released if they
survived their term. This functionality is quite different from the
concentration camps and extermination centers that were run by the SS, a
criminal organization. In theory, the inmates detained in facilities run
by the SS were not there because of what they had done, but rather because
of who they were. They had received no prison sentence and they had no
prospect of release. As was the case in so many respects with regard to
the Nazi bureaucracy, these two functionalities overlapped and Salaspils
also received a large number of Jewish deportees from Central Europe, most
of whom died or were killed there.
Source:
http://www.volksbund.de/schon_gelesen/spektrum/riga_english/deportation.asp
<quote>
<deletions>
Many men from the ghetto and Jungfernhof who were fit for work were taken
to the site of the future detention camp in Salaspils, which did not exist
yet. They had to build their own accommodation in the ice-cold conditions
and then build the entire camp.
The transportations to Riga continued until the beginning of February and
were not resumed until August. They were then conducted at monthly
intervals until December 1942 (transportations from Berlin). One of them
was sent on further to Estonia in September 1942 (from Berlin and
Frankfurt am Main).
<deletions>
The shock at the conditions was immense. On arrival at the goods depot in
Riga the passengers were driven from the train with shouting and sometimes
violence. Those who could not manage the march on foot to Jungfernhof or
the ghetto were taken away by lorry. They were never seen again. The
people had to drag themselves along the icy streets to their
accommodation. The cruel weather, evil intentions and, it must be
stressed, German inability to care for the deported meant that it took
days and weeks for the little food then provided to be more or less
secured. The appalling accommodation, the cold, the hunger and the
resulting illnesses meant that more than 800 people died in the winter
months in Jungfernhof alone. In the Riga ghetto, provided that they were
fit to work, the Jews who arrived had to clear the snow and were then
gradually given jobs in numerous offices and firms. In almost 200
workplaces the Jewish workers, strange though it sounds, became an
integral part of the already short supply of workers who were fiercely
argued over, even violently fought over, by the Germans. In Salaspils the
death rate was particularly high because of the barbaric living and
working conditions. Only a fraction of the men taken there returned to the
Riga ghetto in the summer of 1942, on completion of the building of the
camp, in a state of total exhaustion.
<deletions>
</quote>
Source: http://www.ithaca.edu/icnews/vol23/23-18/newsreel.htm
<quote>
Evidence from a Holocaust expert who says accused Nazi war criminal
Konrads Kalejs played no part in the massacre of Jews may be ruled out.
Magistrate Lisa Hannan yesterday adjourned Mr. Kalejs¹ extradition hearing
to consider if an affidavit by Andrew Ezergailis should be allowed as
evidence. Professor Ezergailis, who wrote The Holocaust in Latvia and
teaches history at Ithaca College, New York, says Salaspils was a labour
camp, not a death camp. No massacres took place there or anywhere in
Latvia while Mr. Kalejs worked at the camp, he said in his
affidavit. Professor Ezergailis also claims unfair international
pressure has pushed Latvia to prosecute Mr. Kalejs.
</quote>
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Til Eulenspiegel
"Eugene Holman" <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:holman-0305...@hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
> In article <d54ruc$9rt$1...@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi>, "J. Anderson"
> <fer...@mail.com> wrote:
>
> <deletions>
>
>> The majority (those 90 %) was not 'neutral' -- it represented democracy
>> as
>> opposed to totalitarianism of whatever colour.
>>
>> WWII was a struggle between democracy and totalitarianism. It ended not
>> in
>> 1945 but in 1991. This is something that Putin and the rest of the
>> 'Ewiggestrigen' will never understand. We'll probably have to wait until
>> 2050 before Russia has been purified from Soviet nostalgia.
>
> One problem for the Russians is that they do not feel the kind of
> responsibility for Stalin, who headed a group that had illegally usurped
> power in the Russian Empire, replacing it with a new state baseed on
> ideology rather than nationality and refusing to give any of it up, than
> the Germans do for Hitler. Hitler, even if not supported by a majority of
> Germans, came to power as the result of what were elections and subsequent
> horse trading that were arguably free and fair by the standards of the
> time and place. A state generally regarded as one of the most advanced in
> the world had a temporary bout with self-imposed insanity, and its
> citizenry is still dealing with the consequences three generations later.
> Eugene Holman
Well said,
amen!
E Holman seems to be the only Balt that has a brain or knows
how to use it without a manual.
Slightly biased but nevertheless a very intelligent person
with a good in-sight and understanding.
Ta
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
But I want to quibble with the way you phrase "recently published
Latvian book that characterizes Salaspils as an 'educational labor
camp'"... just a quibble. The book is _not_ "characterizing" Salaspils
that way; it's merely giving the official name of the facility, and the
context is a caption -- the description of Salaspils in the book is
part of a section on the repressive apparatus of the Nazi regime. All
around it is information about concentration camps like
Mežaparks/Kaiserwald, etc. Nobody is trying to say that Salaspils
wasn't a horrible place. The distinction is as you define it, but the
complaint seems to be that the book is in some way trying to deny or
minimize the horror of the Holocaust. That's the real problem here.
It's just not true. The authors of the book, and Ezergailis commenting
on it, have regretted the caption. But that's all it is -- a caption
giving the official name of the facility. This caption won't appear in
the English edition of the book, and the authors have re-examined the
parts of the book that were criticized. The book is a compilation of
lectures given in Russian, nothing more -- I'm one of the translators,
and I can talk about the failings of the book (and there are many) in
the future. It's just a far cry from this book and VVF's "vobla" remark
to the header of this thread -- _nobody_ in any of these polemics is
making _any_ apology for Nazis, and nobody would want to, period. That
is the point, I think. Anybody who thinks otherwise is either
completely deluded or a miserable liar.
Regards,
/P
MirTopolskiRexPrezGreatGreatSatan'sFighter
> MirTopolskiRexPrez wrote:
>> J. Anderson wrote:
>>> had Nazi-sympathizing parties in all the Nordic countries. In Finland, the
>>> extreme right had 8 of the 200 seats in our parliament. The extreme left was
>>> prohibited, and its most ardent advocates were either in hiding or
>>> imprisoned. But for understandable reasons the Stalin fan club was quite
>>> small in Finland during the war.
>>> The result: 90 % of the population loathed both Hitler and Stalin and hoped
>>> that they would annihilate each other. The sooner, the better.
>> Where's the proof? Sci sez the majority is never neutral ... it's like
>> watching Godzilla vs T.Rex-Stegosaurus & Co movies ...
> One clear proof is that Finland wound up waging a nasty little warlet
> against the withdrawing Germans in Lapland after it had concluded a
> separate peace with the USSR in the fall of 1944. Another is that when
> fighting alongside Germany against the USSR Finkland's democratic
> institutions remained intact, teh country was never Nazified.
Cool. I wonder who cared about that "democratic" crap? Hardly the USK
leaders who fought side-by-side with Uncle Joe. It was an all-out war
with strong *racial* (though mutually different) background by all
participants. After all Weimar Germany was a democracy that peacefully
slipped into National-Socialism. As for Finnish separate peace, well, in
1944 even Finns (whether nazified or not) recognized that German game
was over ...
Eugene Holman
MirTopolskiRexPrezGreatGreatSatan'sFighter <b...@black.hole> wrote:
<deletions>
>
> Cool. I wonder who cared about that "democratic" crap?
A lot of people. In Finland's case it showed that the country was willing
to make an alliance with the Devil himself [see the material and
photograph of Mannerheim and Hitler at http://www.dra.de/dok_1004.htm] to
retain its independence.
> Hardly the USK
> leaders who fought side-by-side with Uncle Joe.
Funny, Uncle Joe seems to have been what in Finnish is called a
*kiertopalkinto*, a person that everyone gets to sleep with. He started
the war allied with Nazi Germany, fought most of it allied with the US and
the UK *against* Nazi Germany, and ended up with a separate treaty with
Finland, a country he had attacked in 1939, but to whose "brave army" he
eventually honored with a toast after the war.
> It was an all-out war
> with strong *racial* (though mutually different) background by all
> participants.
Although you are certainly right, the notion of race was constantly being
redefined as circumstances changed. In Finland the Nazis had no difficulty
fighting with Finnish Jews, nor did the Finnish-Jews, aware of what was
going on along the eastern front, have insurmountable difficulty fighting
alongside the Nazis, as comrades-in-arms against the Soviet Union as long
as it was expedient [see the article "Finland: Where Jews fought on the
side of the Nazis" at
http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/20969/edition_id/431/format/html/displaystory.html].
> After all Weimar Germany was a democracy that peacefully
> slipped into National-Socialism. As for Finnish separate peace, well, in
> 1944 even Finns (whether nazified or not)
The Nazi party never had a following in Finland during the war. During the
1970s a man best described as an exhibitionist maniac, the late Pekka
Siitoin (1944-2003), established a Finnish Nazi Party and annointed
himself Valtakunnanjohtaja - Reichsführer. To see what kind of a person he
was, check out his website at
http://home.thirdage.com/Adventure/valtakunnanjohtaja/siitoin.htm.
> recognized that German game was over ...
The Finns were also acutely aware of what was going on in the Baltic
states at the same time, and they were willing to do *anything* to avoid
their fate. Finnish politician, minister of the interior, and later
president Urho Kekkonen had started secret negotiations with the Soviets
through the intermediary of the Americans months before the Finnish-Soviet
truce was signed. Although he is now regarded by many as an opportunistic
authoritarian and the author of Finlandization, Kekkonen also made the
Soviets an offer that they could not refuse, thus extricating Finland from
the war and allowing it to function a laboratory showing that western
democracy can coexist and even flourish despite the existence of the the
Soviet Union next door. Indeed, the final word on Finlandization is not
yet in, since it is popularly regarded as having been asymmetrical rather
than as a symmetrical relationship of give and take for both sides. A good
argument can be made for the claim that the 1975 Soviet-initiated and
Kekkonen-hosted CSCE conference in Helsinki, at which human rights were
internationalized as the price for accepting the post-war boundaries in
Europe, was the first nail in the coffin of the USSR and the eastern bloc.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
J. Anderson
"Eugene Holman" <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:holman-0305...@hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
>
We *did* have a party that was close enough to the Nazis to get prohibited
after the war: IKL (Patriotic People's Movement). Its support was declining,
as the number of parliamentary seats demonstrates (out of a total of 200):
14 in 1933
14 in 1936 (8.3 % of the votes)
8 in 1939 (6.6 % of the votes)
There were no elections in 1942 and by 1945 IKL was gone. The party held a
cabinet post (deputy minister for communications) in 1941-43.
The 'good' thing about IKL is that its existence and support indicated what
kind of following the Nazis actually had in Finland.
John
Tomi A
>
> "Eugene Holman" <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
> news:holman-0305...@hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
>>
>> The Nazi party never had a following in Finland during the war.
>
> We *did* have a party that was close enough to the Nazis to get
> prohibited after the war: IKL (Patriotic People's Movement). Its
> support was declining, as the number of parliamentary seats
> demonstrates (out of a total of 200):
>
> 14 in 1933
> 14 in 1936 (8.3 % of the votes)
> 8 in 1939 (6.6 % of the votes)
>
> There were no elections in 1942 and by 1945 IKL was gone. The party
> held a cabinet post (deputy minister for communications) in 1941-43.
>
In 1938 the parliament forbid IKL but later one of the lower courts found
the decision unconstitutional.
> The 'good' thing about IKL is that its existence and support indicated
> what kind of following the Nazis actually had in Finland.
>
Actually IKL wasn't a Nazi party but a Facist one. There was a Nazi party,
though (whose name I can't remember). The number of members was AFAIK
somewhere around 100-200, anyway, a very marginal phenomenon
lora...@cs.com
anza...@hotmail.com wrote:
> The war of words between Russian and Latvian politicians is heating
up.
> In the process, both sides are taking more and more extreme
positions,
> that start to glorify the ugliest pages in the history of Europe:
> Nazism and Stalinism.
I suggest you try your propaganda elsewhere..
Because we recognized russian bullcrap such as yours when we see it.
The only place of earth were nazis and bolsheviks still exist as
offical and viable political parties - is in today's russia. *Russia* -
nowhere else.
There are 30,000 registered russian nazis in Edward Limonov's russian
nazi party. (who last week announced that they might be forced to take
up arms).
And then there are the three newly formed 'Putin Youth' communistic
organizations. The most recent one being called 'Nash' (no, not the
car).
Your choice.
If you can't make up your mind.. you can always wear red suspenders
over your brown shirt.
Uno Hu
anzau...@hotmail.com
>There is no reason in the world to take
>Jeckeln, in Soviet testimony, as the sole unimpeachale source. There
>are other considerations -- the numbers Salaspils could physically
hold
>(which, btw, is the meaning of the SS/SD distinction, in part),
records
> from the camp, other testimony, etc.
You have hard evidence that contradicts Friedrich Jeckeln's testimony?
Fine. Let's see it!
You wrote:
>Salaspils at its most crowded could only hold 2000-3000 persons;
>Of the ca. 12 000 people held at Salaspils between 1941 and 1944, ca.
>one-sixth, or 2000 people, lost their lives.
I asked you to give me the facts on which you base your numbers. You
haven't. Where did these numbers come from?
Why do you claim that "Salaspils at its most crowded could only hold
2000-3000 persons"?
What measurements are you basing your conclusions? What was the total
area of the camp? What was the total area of the housing facilities?
How many people per square meter are you allowing? I sure hope you are
not assuming that each inmate had his own room with a private
bathroom...
And even if it were the case that Salaspils could hold at most 3 000
inmates at any given point of time, why do you claim that no more than
2 000 people could have died there from? How long do you claim an
inmate could survive there before he died from hunger, hardship or
being shot by the camp guards?
Let us, for example, try to estimate the numbers by comparing Salaspils
with the well-researched camp like Auschwitz. Here is the official site
of the Auschwitz (Oswiecim) Museum in Poland, the definitive source for
this data. This site gives a rather concervative estimate of the number
of victims there:
http://www.auschwitz-muzeum.oswiecim.pl/html/eng/historia_KL/liczba_narodowosc_ofiar_ok.html:
"The overall number of victims of Auschwitz in the years 1940-1945 is
estimated at between 1,100,000 and 1,500,000 people. "
How small was Salaspils compared to Auschwitz?
Even if it were 10 times smaller, this would still imply between 110
000 and 150 000 deaths.
You may argue that unlike Auschwitz, Salaspils had no gas chambers.
Fine but the Auschwitz Muzeum site also says:
"Over 50% of the registered prisoners died as a result of starvation,
labor that exceeded their physical capacity, the terror that raged in
the camp, executions, the inhuman living conditions, disease and
epidemics, punishment, torture" and not of gassing. "
Over 50% of all deaths were due to non-gas causes. And those, who died
from gassing, would have died a little bit later of "natural" causes.
So, why do you claim that only 2 000 people died in Salaspils? Was its
housing capacity indeed 300 times smaller than Auschwitz?! Hard to
believe.
>I'm not qualified to make those determinations -- neither are you, o
> mathematician.
Why not? The job of calculating the number of victims should be done by
mathematicians. If a historian tries to deny mathematicians access to
his numbers, then he is definetely engaged in falsifications and is
afraid of being found out.
>I trust historians to do that for me.
Fine. Give me the numbers that the historians are claiming and the
facts from which these numbers are derived. As a mathematician, I will
be more than glad to verify the validity of their calculations.
So far, the only hard numbers I could find in the Internet were the
55,000 to
87,000 Jews exterminated in the Salaspils, according to the testimony
of one of the managers of that camp, Friedrich Jeckeln. And this is
just Jews. There were many non-Jewish victims also.
Give me your hard numbers!
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
any of these "ugliest pages" -- I mean, even if all of his shit were
true (if the book could be condensed to an isolated caption, or if
VVF's position were all about voblas) -- there's still not the
slightest glorification of any ugliness that I can see on "this side."
If anybody deserves the less savory epithets GK de Montréal can
deliver (e.g., "loser fuckwit"), it's Anzaurres. One doesn't even have
to look at the data -- just glance at what he does with it.
/P
anzau...@hotmail.com
>anzaur...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> Eugene Holman wrote:
>>> Just as the invasion of Latvia by the Nazis in 1940
>> Eugene, did Germany invade Latvia in 1940?
>No. The Soviets invaded in 1940. The Nazis invaded on June 22, 1941.
That's what I thought.
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
translator, then. Buy the books on the subject in English. Talk to a
historian.
I'm afraid you're avoiding the issue -- I piped in because of what you
said, and what you said was _shit_, Anzaurres. You're avoiding almost
all of what I say, dear Sir or Madam, and I suspect you do so for a
reason.
Wow, we're gonna argue "hard numbers" based on what you can Google! How
convincing!
Let's go back to your initial post, please. It claims that a book
(which I suspect you will now admit you haven't read) says things that
indicate Latvia is Nazi. You go through contortions, e.g., translations
of translations of translations gleaned from Russian reviews of said
book, and I came in to say that all the book did was give the German
term for the camp, which is what any decent history would do. The
publishers of the book made a mistake by putting that term in a caption
(perhaps not realizing that certain people growl at books after looking
at the pictures rather than reading them).
That is, in fact, all the book did. Period! Can you accept that?
It is perhaps horrifying to some, including you, that the book uses
this term -- a direct translation of "Erweitertes Polizeigefängnis
und Arbeitserziehungslager," which is what the camp was called within
the Nazi system.
It is completely insane to suggest that the book was trying to say that
Salaspils was a nice place or that people were "educated" there -- you
tried to wax eloquent upon the latter point.
You're wrong, Anzaurres. The numbers don't matter to your point, which
is the point I am arguing. The numbers matter to me, and matter to
history -- but they don't matter to your point, and you as a
mathematician should possess the logic to realize that.
You, Anzaurres, lost your point, and your point -- continued with a
quote taken out of context from the President of Latvia -- is a lie. Go
back to what you wanted to say, please. If you really believe it's true
-- Latvia supports Nazis -- give us some meat to prove it. It's just
not so, sorry. There are, of course, Nazis in Latvia, as I am sure
there are Nazis in Iceland. But "Russia vs. Latvia: Stalinists vs.
Nazis"? Gimme a break.
You are a loser fuckwit, as GK would say. Sorry.
/P
Fingal
>
>anza...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> The war of words between Russian and Latvian politicians is heating
>up.
>> In the process, both sides are taking more and more extreme
>positions,
>> that start to glorify the ugliest pages in the history of Europe:
>> Nazism and Stalinism.
>
>I suggest you try your propaganda elsewhere..
>Because we recognized russian bullcrap such as yours when we see it.
>
>The only place of earth were nazis and bolsheviks still exist as
>offical and viable political parties - is in today's russia. *Russia* -
>nowhere else.
>
>There are 30,000 registered russian nazis in Edward Limonov's russian
>nazi party. (who last week announced that they might be forced to take
>up arms).
I think you may be a bit off on the NBP.
From RFE/RL:
PROFILE
NATIONAL BOLSHEVIKS: THE PARTY OF 'DIRECT ACTION'
By Victor Yasmann
The National Bolshevik Party (NBP), which is Russia's oldest radical
youth organization, was created in 1994 by radical writer Eduard
Limonov, Eurasianism ideologue Aleksandr Dugin (who soon left the
party), and rock musicians Yegor Letov and Sergei Kurikhin, as well as
other counterculture figures.
Although according to its own statistics the NBP has 30,000 to
50,000 members and branches in 24 key Russian regions as well as in
the Baltic states and the CIS, the party has no official status, as
the authorities persistently refuse to register it. It has a network
of regional and international websites and requests that its new
members possess Internet skills.
The NBP's leader and cult figure is Eduard Limonov, 62, a man
with an unusual history and one of the few Russian politicians with no
links to the Soviet and post-Soviet ruling elite. Born in Kharkiv,
Limonov was a member of the Soviet literary underground in the 1960s.
In 1974, he emigrated to the United States, where he became close to
American Trotskyites and anarchists. It was there that he wrote his
best-selling novel "It is me, Eddie," (Eto ya, Yedichka), which has
been translated into 15 languages.
Limonov soon moved to Paris, where he became a member of the
French avant-garde literary salons and joined forces with French and
European leftist and neo-rightist political radicals, including French
National Front leader Jean-Marie Le Pen. In the late 1980s, he began
to publish his articles in the national-patriotic press in the Soviet
Union and in 1992 moved back to Russia. In 1994 Limonov launched the
extremist ultranationalist newspaper "Limonka," which quickly began to
attract various groups of young people frustrated by the hardships of
reforms and embittered at the West.
Armed with his political experience in the West, Limonov
proposed the creation of "revolutionary party of a new style" that
could attract young people with a combination of extremist
ultranationalist propaganda and "direct action" as practiced during
the Maoist student protest in France and other European countries in
1968. Limonov suggested calling the new party the National Bolsheviks,
as he believed that the word "communism" had been compromised by the
reactionary policies of the Communist Party, which he also blamed for
"losing the USSR."
While Limonov became the leader of the NBP, its chief
ideologue was Aleksandr Dugin (see
http://www.rferl.org/specials/russianelection/bio/dugin.asp), the main
standard bearer of the neo-imperialistic doctrine of Eurasianism.
Dugin was also a proponent of the idea of a "conservative revolution"
pitting Eurasia against the Atlantic powers of Great Britain and the
United States. Dugin was also an editor of the party newspaper,
"Limonka."
Looking back at the NBP's activities in the 1990s, the leader
of the rival Communist Party-controlled Young Left Front, Ilya
Ponamarev, told kreml.org on 4 April that "the organization never was
or is a youth movement at all."
"It is a postmodernist aesthetic project of intellectual
provocateurs [in the positive meaning of the word] in which many
bright and nontrivial personalities like Eduard Limonov, Aleksandr
Dugin, Sergei Kurikhin, and [analyst] Stanislav Belkovskii were
involved," Ponamarev said. "It was an effort, and, a quite successful
one, to mobilize the most passionate and intellectually dissatisfied
part of society (in contrast to the Communist Party, which utilized
the social and economic protests of the leftist electorate). For this
mobilization, the NBP used a bizarre mixture of totalitarian and
fascist symbols, geopolitical dogma, leftist ideas, and
national-patriotic demagoguery."
In 1998, Dugin and his followers left the NBP. After Dugin's
exit, the NBP quickly moved to the left wing of Russia's political
spectrum, accusing Dugin and his group of being fascists.
At that point, the NBP began having considerable problems with
the Federal Security Service (FSB), since the special services always
favored Dugin's Eurasianist philosophy. Or as 102-year-old KGB Foreign
Intelligence veteran Boris Gudz claimed in the 2004 book "Geniuses of
Intelligence," Eurasianism was invented in the 1920s by the OGPU, a
predecessor of the KGB. Consequentially, the FSB regarded all
opponents of Eurasianism, including the NBP, as enemies.
The conflict between the FSB and NBP was exacerbated by the
tactics of "direct action," in which NBP activists publicly attacked
people they considered symbols of the regime or domestic or foreign
allies of the Kremlin. The NBP's favorite tactics were throwing
mayonnaise or tomatoes at prominent public figures. Since 1998, such
people as former Prime Minister Mikhail Kasyanov, NATO
Secretary-General Lord George Robertson, Central Election Commission
Chairman Aleksandr Veshnyakov, and film director Nikita Mikhalkov were
subjected to such attacks by the NBP, while former Soviet President
Mikhail Gorbachev and Great Britain's Prince Charles were hit in face
with bunches of flowers.
For these and other nonviolent actions that the NBP calls
"velvet terror," many of its activists have been arrested and
sentenced to serious prison terms. According to the NBP website
(http://nbp-info.ru), more than 100 of its members have been in
Russian prisons since the party's creation, while 47 are still serving
sentences or awaiting trial.
In April 2001, Limonov and a group of his followers were
arrested by the FSB in Altai under accusations of terrorism and
preparing an armed rebellion in Kazakhstan.
Limonov awaited trial in jail until February 2003, when he was
sentenced to four years in prison. Limonov pleaded not guilty and
sought political-prisoner status. "We do not deserve to be called
extremists. In the West, we would occupy a place between Greenpeace
and Amnesty International, being a legal party and real political
force, " he said, according to informacia.ru.
In prison, Limonov wrote the book "The Other Russia," in which
he dropped much of the radical dogma of national bolshevism and
changed his mind about the past and future of Russia. For example, in
the mid-1990s NBP activists shocked people with chants of "Stalin,
Beria, Gulag," but after personal experience with modern Russian
prisons, Limonov and his followers stopped romanticizing
state-security organs and began calling President Vladimir Putin's
Russia a "police state."
Under pressure from State Duma deputies, Limonov was released
in June 2003 and continued his political evolution toward a coalition
with democratic forces and the left-wing opposition against the
Kremlin. The product of this evolution was the new NBP political
program released in 2004, containing almost identical points to
Yabloko's, for instance.
According to the program posted at http://nbp-info.ru, the new
goals of the party should be the development of civil society and
restriction of state interference in public and personal life,
facilitation of the registration and activity of political parties,
development of independent media and allowing criticism of the
president and government on state-controlled television, civilian
control over law enforcement and the FSB, restoration of the
social-security network, curtailing of bureaucracy, and the end of the
war in Chechnya.
Since late 2004, the NBP has protested the cancellation of the
direct election of governors and the botched monetization reform and
enthusiastically supported the Orange Revolution in Ukraine. On
11 April the NBP together with the Communist Party, Motherland, Sergei
Glazev's For a Decent Life party, and supported by Yabloko, organized
an initiative group for a national referendum on social and political
reforms "with a human face," Russian media reported.
If the political orientation of NBP in the last couple years
changed visibly, the tactics of direct action remain unchanged and
became even more provocative.
On 2 August 2004, a group of NBP activists broke into the
office of Health and Social Development Minister Mikhail Zurabov and
occupied it for several hours, demanding Zurabov's resignation for his
responsibility for the unpopular social-benefits reforms, the NBP's
website announced. Using flash-mob tactics, the NBP called its
followers to gather around the office to support the action.
Eventually, FSB arrested most of the participants of the action and on
12 December seven NBP activist were each sentenced to five years in
prison for the "seizure of a government office and mass disturbances."
On 14 December 2004, an even bigger group of NBP members
occupied the presidential-administration visitors' room in much the
same manner, to protest Putin's political reforms, nbp-info.ru
reported. Thirty-nine members of NBP have been arrested and are still
awaiting trial. They have been accused of "attempting to seize power
and organize a mass disturbance." If convicted, they could face two to
eight years in prison. They are scheduled to face trial in August.
Meanwhile, the NBP continues to defend the "right of the
people to revolution." The weekly "Limonka," No. 271, declared on 16
April that Russia is on the eve of revolution. "The people awoke
during perestroika, and fell asleep for a while, now they have
awakened again to discover what kind of moral monsters are governing
them. And they rebel against these monsters. Moral complaints against
the authorities are the main engine of the colored revolution."
Some political analysts believe that the only kind of
revolution that can happen in Russian is a leftist-socialist and/or
nationalist-patriotic revolution. If that is indeed the case, NBP,
with 10 years of experience in confrontation with government, its own
list of political prisoners, and tactics of direct action, will likely
be at the eye of the revolutionary storm.
>And then there are the three newly formed 'Putin Youth' communistic
>organizations. The most recent one being called 'Nash' (no, not the
>car).
3? Moving Together is pretty much dead. "Nashi" hasn't shown much of
itself yet. And you forget "Moving Without Putin."
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
Salaspils with the well-researched camp like Auschwitz" -- huh? What
kind of mathematician are you, anyway? On the one hand, you say you
don't care about whether Salaspils was run by the SS or SD, and now
you're going to figure out how many people were killed at Salspils by
measuring square meters in comparison to Auschwitz? I mean, casting any
arguments aside, isn't that beyond ridiculous? Auschwitz, as far as I
know, was an efficient death camp, dedicated to death. There are
historians who claim gas was used at Salaspils. Most don't -- and when
Auschwitz was functioning efficiently, people slated to die died, no?
That's just not the case with Salaspils -- my _neighbor_ was at
Salaspils. I can assure you that he's no fan of the Nazis or Salaspils.
But what about Vyatlag, Anzaurres? Sorry, but Vyatlag according to the
terminology the Soviets used was not a "death camp" -- do you realize
that the survival rate at Vyatlag was lower than that at Buchenwald?
Why argue numbers if you can't get the concepts straight?
/P
anzau...@hotmail.com
>>Why do you claim that "Salaspils at its most crowded could only hold
>> 2000-3000 persons"?
>>So, why do you claim that only 2 000 people died in Salaspils?
>See the links I provided.
I did look at the main link that you provided. It is in English but it
gives no calculations as to the capacity of the Salaspils camp and the
number of people who died there.
>I'm afraid they're in Latvian -- hire a translator, then.
Why don't you humor the readers and translate just a couple of
sentences that calculate the capacity of the Salaspils camp and the
number of people who died there. A couple of sentences! It will take
you much less time than it takes to post irrelevant drivel and insults
towards me.
Or, if you are incable of translating a simple sentence, just give us
the evidence as to the capacity of the Salaspils camp and the number of
people who died there IN LATVIAN and we shall try to find somebody else
to translate it. You wrote:
>>>Salaspils at its most crowded could only hold 2000-3000 persons;
>>>Of the ca. 12 000 people held at Salaspils between 1941 and 1944,
ca.
>>>one-sixth, or 2000 people, lost their lives.
I ask you for THE THIRD TIME: give us the text from which you derived
these numbers! Or did you invent them?
> You are a loser fuckwit
>From your hysterics and namecalling, looks like you have been caught
lying.
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
intellectual provocateurs" is that most of the people in it are
deranged dolts on a binge. All of the walls in my neighborhood are
covered with NBP graffiti, and I've had the dubious pleasure of
interviewing the culprits in depth. One of their favorite scrawls is
"STALIN" in Cyrillic with the "A" circled in the, er, traditional
symbol of anarchists. You try to ask these people to reconcile "Stalin"
and "anarchy" -- and I'm afraid the only answer you'll get is "let us
take you to our leader -- only he's in prison, but he knows
everything..." Mostly they're cute guys in leather jackets with bands
like "The Gallows" attracting really fine Russkie chicks like the
notorious Alina, who hit Prince Charles with the carnation. They also
have a slight problem -- whilst wrapped up in Russian fascism and
fantasizing about hanging Latvians, homosexuals, pornographers, and
drug dealers from the lamp-posts at their earliest convenience --
Limonov writes juicy bits about fisting and says funky things about
Russian women being worthless in the face of American girls. These
Great Russian fascists, in Latvia, were mostly represented by a couple
of Jews, a Gypsy, and a black guy. You can try, with a straight face,
to examine their "anti-fascist" views, and learn that Limonov was right
to shoot his Kalshnikov, ostensibly but really only thetrically at
civilians in Bosnia (quite artfully) in defense of Slavic unity. You
can also get my favorite quote, from Alina herself: "Stalin was great
because when he ruled everyone feared and respected Russia." When the
reaction was laughter (feared maybe -- but respected?) -- they got
awfully huffy. I really don't want to say anything against them because
they're kids on a jag. But they do very much fall into exactly the
category Hui puts them in -- they're Nazis and Bolsheviks, floating
around at a point where Red meets Brown. The really scary thing is that
not a few Russophone kids think their views make some sort of sense.
When I was interviewing them, they would walk through the park and find
hangers-on -- not dumb kids, just lost kids. They have their _design_
together -- an appealing combination of irony, chic, and hatred. Sort
of like "Goths," but with the morality and agenda of "Skins."
/P
anzau...@hotmail.com
>anzaurr...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>Let us, for example, try to estimate the numbers by comparing
>> Salaspils with the well-researched camp like Auschwitz.
>> Here is the official site of the Auschwitz (Oswiecim) Museum
>> in Poland, the definitive source for this data. This site gives
>> a rather concervative estimate of the number
>>of victims there:
>>http://www.auschwitz-muzeum.oswiecim.pl/html
/eng/historia_KL/liczba_narodowosc_ofiar_ok.html
>>"The overall number of victims of Auschwitz in the years
>>1940-1945 is estimated at between 1,100,000
>>and 1,500,000 people. "
>huh? What kind of mathematician are you, anyway? ....
>Auschwitz, as far as I
>know, was an efficient death camp, dedicated to death. There are
>historians who claim gas was used at Salaspils. Most don't -- and when
>Auschwitz was functioning efficiently, people slated to die died, no?
I wote clearly:
>>You may argue that unlike Auschwitz,
>>Salaspils had no gas chambers.
>>Fine but the Auschwitz Muzeum site also says:
>>"Over 50% of the registered prisoners died as a result of starvation,
>>labor that exceeded their physical capacity, the terror that raged in
>>the camp, executions, the inhuman living conditions, disease and
>>epidemics, punishment, torture" and not of gassing.
Over 50% of all deaths were due to non-gas causes! So, MORE THAN HALF
of all people in Auschwitz died not because Auschwitz was a death camp,
but because it was a CAMP, primarily of starvation. What evidence do
you have that the Germans fed the Salaspils inmates any better than
they fed the Auschwitz inmates?
And let me repeat my question. According to all the evidence that I
have seen, the people who ran the Salaspils were Germans, not Latvians.
Why are you trying so hard to deny the crimes of GERMAN Nazis? Why?!
anzau...@hotmail.com
No, it wasn't. It was primarily a struggle between two totalitarian
systems: one based on the idea of race, the other - on the idea of
class. The race-based totalitarism lost.
As the result half of Europe became part of the class-based
totalitarianism.
Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins)
Nazis, or any Nazis? What am I trying so very hard to do, dear
Anzaurres? Can we return to the point? Reread the very first paragraph
in this thread -- written by you. That is all I am denying -- and I
deny it because it is bullshit, like the rest of what you wrote. When
you attend the argument, I might translate something for you. But I
really don't see the point-- it's rather obvious that you don't care
about the numbers or the terms or the deignations -- what you care
about is your idea that Latvians are Nazis trying to diminish the
Holocaust. You have no evidence for that, and that's because it's not
true. We can Google each other to death with numbers, additions and
subtractions in many a language -- that still won't address your point,
or my point. Can't you see that?
/P
J. Anderson
"Tomi A" <Your....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns964BD0E526...@192.89.123.233...
Thanks, Tomi, I can always trust you to fill up my gaps :~) It would be
interesting to know more about that *real* Nazi grouping. Any idea?
anzau...@hotmail.com
///Where am I trying to deny the crimes of the German Nazis, the
or my point. Can't you see that? //
What I can see is that you are (for the fourth time!) AVOIDING to
provide the source (even in Latvian!) of your numbers. You wrote:
>>>Salaspils at its most crowded could only hold 2000-3000 persons;
>>>Of the ca. 12 000 people held at Salaspils between 1941
>>>and 1944, ca. one-sixth, or 2000 people, lost their lives.
All I am asking from you is for you to either show your source or admit
that this is a pure falsification on your part. I asked this question
FOUR TIMES. In response, yuo give all kinds of irrelevant BS and hurl
insults towards me. Is it my fault that you falsified data and were
caught lying?
Please give the source of your data and/or the calculations that
derived your data.
Look, I posted a balanced article, criticizing both the Latvian and the
Russian sides in the hope that both sides would give evidence to
disprove my allegations. In particluar, I wrote:
>>The Russian side is not keeping quiet either... the left-wing
>> members of the Rusisan Parliament are seen all over the
>> Russian TV spreading all kinds of idiotic apologies for the
>> Soviet occupation of the Baltics in 1940.
>>Other, a bit more sophisticated politicians claim that what the
>>Baltic countries had signen a Mutual Military Assistance
>>pacts with USSR and thus made the Soviet occupation of the
>>Baltic countries legal. Curiously, the texts of these supposed
>>agreements between USSR, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia
>>are never sited.
>>Even assuming that such pacts between USSR and all three - Latvia,
>>Lithuania and Estonia - existed, it is not clear how these pacts can
>>possibly justify occupation. First of all, these would have been
>>ASSISTANCE treaties, not OCCUPATION and ANNEXATION treaties.
>>And second, these pacts became relevant only if one of the
>>signatories WAS ATTACKED BY A FOREIGN POWER. But
>> none of the four countires was attacked by anybody in 1940.
>>The only country that attacked the Baltic states in 1940 was
>>the Soviet Union itself! It becomes a rather ridiculous
>>claim: "We committed aggression against the Baltic states
>>in order to defend them against our aggression!"
Not a single Russian objected to my criticism. All Russians seem to
agree with my damnation of Stalinist annexation of the Baltic states.
On the other hand, two Latvians - you and «Pas de deux» - took my
criticism of those, who deny German (German!) Nazi crimes against
humanity in Salaspils, as a personal insult and started hurling
childish hysterics and insults at me.
You don't think that the Nazi crimes were as horrifying as the
international community claims and to prove that, you wrote down your
(much lower) numbers. So, where did you get these numbers and how were
they derived? Is this too much to ask? This seems trivial. Unless you
falsified these numbers, in which case you will not be able to answer
my question. So which is it?
anzau...@hotmail.com
>Uzytkownik <anzaur...@hotmail.com> napisal w wiadomosci
>> normund napisal v vedomosti
>>> [some statement in Polish directed at me]
I don't know Polish but am polite enough to want to know what a person
says to me in order to answer his question. So I replied in the only
Slavic language that I know - in Russian:
>> Ne ponyal. A po-angliyski - slabo?
[Translation: I didn't understand you. Can't you write in English?]
To this I got his response in Rusisan:
>Uze moj ojcec skazal russkij ponimajet toljko togda, kogda dostajet
>kirpichem w mordu. ja wsegda jego sluchal :)
[Translation: my Father said that a Russian begins to understand only
when somebody hits his face with a brick. I always followed his advice]
Sorry. I am not Rusisan. I am an American Jew. That's why I asked you
to reply to me IN ENGLISH! And in return I got this... A brick in my
face.
Til Eulenspiegel
<anzau...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115156528.0...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Never mind the Baltic German wanabes, they talk tough
but shit their pants if you rise your arm.
So you are self-hating Slavic goy, eh?
You are lucky you are at a safe distance, or they would have
treated you to some delicious Cyclon B chocolates.:D
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
provide the source (even in Latvian!) of your numbers. "
Huh? Excuse me, but I cited the sources, and I gave you three links to
what's on the Web from those sources.
"You don't think that the Nazi crimes were as horrifying as the
international community claims..."
What a gorgeous sentence! I'm afraid there's nothing I can say to you,
Sir or Madam. I certainly do think that Nazi crimes were horrifying,
and I've made that abundantly clear, and you can Google everything I've
written for the last decade to see that I am quite dedicated to
condemning Nazi crimes. "As horrifying" as the "international
community" thinks they are? What is that supposed to mean, Anzaurres?
I mean, like, Stalin's successors think Nazi crimes were
super-duper-horrible-terrible, whilst people in Upper Volta think they
were super-atrocious-horrible, and the Auschwitz of the Baltic was
only, like, awful, not unconscionable? Damn, I think they were
unspeakable! Is that good I mean bad enough for you?
"Not a single Russian objected to my criticism. All Russians seem to
agree with my damnation..."
Golly gee! I guess they are of the expialidociously horrible school!
Not like those Nazi Balts.
You fuckwad.
/P
lora...@cs.com
Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
> provide the source (even in Latvian!) of your numbers. "
A russian propaganda campaign must necessarily run counter to truth.
Therefore, sussurs runs from your cites as well.
> Huh? Excuse me, but I cited the sources, and I gave you three links
to
> what's on the Web from those sources.
>
> "You don't think that the Nazi crimes were as horrifying as the
> international community claims..."
>
> What a gorgeous sentence! I'm afraid there's nothing I can say to
you,
> Sir or Madam. I certainly do think that Nazi crimes were horrifying,
> and I've made that abundantly clear, and you can Google everything
I've
> written for the last decade to see that I am quite dedicated to
> condemning Nazi crimes. "As horrifying" as the "international
> community" thinks they are? What is that supposed to mean, Anzaurres?
No, no.. that response is all wrong peetey. Verbose too.
The proper response to noxious russian propaganda vapors such as
'sussurs' above would be : 'What international community?'
'The current russian international community that cheers Stalin's
murder of 60 million people - or the other international community?'
Much better.
Uno Hu
darsi...@comcast.net
shot.
anza...@hotmail.com wrote:
> The war of words between Russian and Latvian politicians is heating
up.
> In the process, both sides are taking more and more extreme
positions,
> that start to glorify the ugliest pages in the history of Europe:
> Nazism and Stalinism.
Hmmm... Who exactly do you accuse of glorifying Nazism ? I think I can
probably assume that you dont suggest that Russia is starting to
glorify Nazism. I guess that leaves Latvia. Please supply facts and
figures that support your claim here.
>
> The offensive belongs to the Latvian side. Antonijs Zunda, , the
> history advisor to the President of Latvia recently co-wrote a book
> titled "The History of Latvia in 20th Century" . The book definitely
> contains a chapter devoted to WWII, which tries to prove that the
> Latvians, who served in the nazi SS units made the right decision
> because they "chose the much lesser of two evils", the greater evil
> being Communism.
This is a rather weak analysis/assumption that you make based on 6
words you quote from a book of many many pages.
Can you provide additional text from that book that supports your
assertion that the books intent is to try and "prove" that the Latvians
made the right decision by "choosing" to be occupied by Nazi Germany as
opposed to either remaining neutral or being occupied by the soviet
union ?
> The book contains a chapter on Salaspils, the Nazi death camp located
> in Latvia. This concentration camp was organized and managed by the
> German Nazis, but manned by local Latvian Nazis. Many newspapers
report
> that the book says that the camp, which can be referred to as the
> "Baltic Auschwitz", was an "extended police prison, a work camp."
Many
> more newspapers report that the book goes even further and calls
> Salaspils "a police prison and educational labor facility".
Many newspapers report ? What newspapers ? Where did these quotes come
from ?
If one was to present such a statement in an educational institution as
a statement of real research - I think you'd get a failing grade. Maybe
they'd give you the chance to try again ?
>
> The Latvian President isn't making the matters any better. The World
> is preparing to celebrate the 60th anniversary ofhappiest day in
World
> history: the defeat of the Nazi Germany at the hands of the Alles:
> USSR, USA and Britain. This Holiday is especially revered in Russia
and
> Ukriane, countries that sacrificed almost 30 million people to the
> defeat of the Nazis, the coutries whose soldiers conquered Nazi
Berlin
> in May 1945.
The Latvian President is going to Moscow for this event. The Ukrainian
President isnt. Please explain.
>
> Latvian President Vaira Vike-Freiberga decided to give her own reason
> as to why the Rusisan people celebrate the Victory over Nazism; "On
May
> 9, Russian people will place a Caspian roach on a newspaper, drink
> vodka, sing folk songs, and recall how they had heroically conquered
> the Baltic area," RIA-Novosti cited her saying Friday. In other
words,
> the only reason why the Soviet soldiers defeated Nazism was to
enslave
> the Baltic people.
This is a rather presumptive statement. Who are you to speak to the
underlying meaning of Freiberga's words ? Do you know President
Freiberga ? Have you discussed the meaning of her words with her ?
The soviet union enslaved the Baltic people - and a number of other
countries - because the soviet union was led by a murderous lunatic who
used the communist mantra of furthering world socialism as the means to
build an empire greased with the blood of his own people. Being an ally
in the effort to defeat nazism was coincidental - albeit advantageous -
and provided Stalin with the influence he wanted to use to enslave even
more people.
Remember, that for a time, the soviet union and nazi Germany were
allies too. In fact - they were allies first.
>
> The Russian side is not keeping quiet either. Of course, the
President
> of Russia,his advisors and all other members of the Rusisan
Government
> are civilized and smart enough not to make public idiots of
themselves,
> the way the Latvian officials are doing. But the left-wing members of
> the Rusisan Parliament are seen all over the Russian TV spreading all
> kinds of idiotic apologies for the Soviet occupation of the Baltics
in
> 1940.
Wow. This is an interesting statement. Not only can you speak directly
as to the intent and meaning of Freiberga's words but you also
personally know of the statements made by "all other members of the
Rusisan(sic) Government". You must really get around.
But the left-wing members of the Rusisan(sic) Parliament are seen "all
over" Russian TV. Interesting. I thought you just said that "all other
members of Rusisan(sic) Government are civilized and smart enough" blah
blah blah. Do you imply that the left-wing members of the Russian
Parliament are not part of Rusisan(sic) Government ? Interesting.
Also, you mentioned in another post on this thread that you dont speak
Russian. How then can you watch and comprehend Russian TV when you dont
speak the language ?
>
> Many of them claim that Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia VOLUNTARILY
> joined the Soviet Union and that the governments of these countries
> officially asked Stalin's government to send troops to occupy them.
Many of who ? And please provide documentation that supports this. It
would seem that world opinion does not support this claim.
>
> Other, a bit more sophisticated politicians claim that what the
Baltic
> countries had signen a Mutual Military Assistance pacts with USSR and
> thus made the Soviet occupation of the Baltic countries legal.
> Curiously, the texts of these supposed agreements between USSR,
Latvia,
> Lithuania and Estonia are never sited.
Since when does signing a Mutual Military Assistance agreement
constitute occupation ? The word "Mutual" implies that its an agreement
between two parties. Occupation isnt an agreement. It's an act of
force. This is sophisticated to you ?
>
> Even assuming that such pacts between USSR and all three - Latvia,
> Lithuania and Estonia - existed, it is not clear how these pacts can
> possibly justify occupation. First of all, these would have been
> ASSISTNCE treaties, not OCCUPATION and ANNEXATION treaties.
They cant - so why did you suggest that they may ?
And again, how can occupation be the result of a treaty ?
>
> And second, these pacts became relevant only if one of the
signatories
> WAS ATTACKED BY A FOREIGN POWER.
You're confusing the Mutual Assitance agreement with an alliance or non
aggression pact. The Mutual Assitance agreements did exist and they
were forced upon the Baltic states as the only alternative to full
invasion by the Red Army. The communications documented between the
soviet Foreign Ministry and the Lithuanian Foreign Ministry are clear,
published and available for your review at the Vilnius National
Archive. Lithuanias option during that stage of the war was either
agree to having Red Army bases in Lithuania or the Red Army will
establish military bases by force and post troop numbers of its
choosing.
> But none of the four countires was
> attacked by anybody in 1940. The only country that attacked the
Baltic
> states in 1940 was the Soviet Union itself! It becomes a rather
> ridiculous claim: "We committed aggression against the Baltic states
> in order to defend them against our aggression!"
There were alot of ridiculous claims back then - as there are today.
The claim - or suggestion - that the Baltics voluntarily requested to
annex to the soviet union of their own free will is clearly ridiculous.
But that doesnt seem to stop people from trying to justify - or suggest
- this claim or any number of other ridiculous claims that are evident.
You claim to be a mathematics professor. That would imply that youre
well versed in logic and the scientific method of problem solving and
the investigation of cause and effect. This post of yours doesnt seem
to support that you have any reasonable grasp of the facts - to which
you decide to produce conclusions anyway - without providing a source
or research. Maybe this is why most of the world is so much better at
mathematics than the products of American mathematical higher learning
institutions.
Vidas
lora...@cs.com
darsiau...@comcast.net wrote:
> Ok. Since anzaurres wont respond to Peteris - I'll give this text a
> shot.
An-sewer can't respond because russian propaganda campaigns don't - by
definition - respond, they just spew forth.
I suspect this most recent little russian paroxysm of lies is due to
the upcoming Stalin-Day festivities in the capital city of propaganda;
Moskow.
> anza...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > The war of words between Russian and Latvian politicians is heating
> up.
Yeah.. it's been that way since they invaded the Baltic countries in
1940 and killed about a million of us.
> > In the process, both sides are taking more and more extreme
> positions,
> > that start to glorify the ugliest pages in the history of Europe:
> > Nazism and Stalinism.
Negatory, there is only one side that can be considered 'extreme' in
its lies - that being Putin's propaganda machine side. Putin just last
week, again claimed that the collapse of the soviet union was the
century's greatest calamity. Scary, no? Revealing, yes.
> Hmmm... Who exactly do you accuse of glorifying Nazism ? I think I
can
> probably assume that you dont suggest that Russia is starting to
> glorify Nazism. I guess that leaves Latvia. Please supply facts and
> figures that support your claim here.
>
He won't because he can't. It's just more russian propganda spewed
forth for the benefit of strangers who don't know the subject; cheap
and transitory russian lies - again and again, again, and yet further
again. The shameless russian mofo's are rabidly manic.
> > The offensive belongs to the Latvian side. Antonijs Zunda, , the
> > history advisor to the President of Latvia recently co-wrote a book
> > titled "The History of Latvia in 20th Century" . The book
definitely
> > contains a chapter devoted to WWII, which tries to prove that the
> > Latvians, who served in the nazi SS units made the right decision
> > because they "chose the much lesser of two evils", the greater evil
> > being Communism.
>
> This is a rather weak analysis/assumption that you make based on 6
> words you quote from a book of many many pages.
'Weak assumption' his posterior... It's just more lunacy from Moskow.
Like we all chose to be serially occupied by the red-brown
communist-fashists who sign the M-R Pact. Idiocy.
> Can you provide additional text from that book that supports your
> assertion that the books intent is to try and "prove" that the
Latvians
> made the right decision by "choosing" to be occupied by Nazi Germany
as
> opposed to either remaining neutral or being occupied by the soviet
> union ?
>
He can't. It's not his job to do that anyway. An-sewer just gets paid
to generate russian propganda. This all probably happens because if he
doesn't come home with enough pay to keep his wayward alcoholic wife
happy, that she would beat him again.
> > The book contains a chapter on Salaspils, the Nazi death camp
located
> > in Latvia. This concentration camp was organized and managed by the
> > German Nazis, but manned by local Latvian Nazis.
More bullcrap. Here's a truthful parsing:
The Gulags were organized by russian elected leader Stalin, but manned
by russians who happily killed 60 million innocent people.
Uno Hu
anzau...@hotmail.com
>While the retreat of the Soviets in 1940
The Soviets did no such thing in 1940. In 1940 they attacked not
retreated. Learn basic history.
> may have given the opportunity
> for many Latvian Jews to leave with them to Russia,
The Soviet retreat (in 1941) gave the "opportunity" for Latvian Jews to
leave Latvia?! Opportunity?!!
For your information, the Soviets retreated from Latvia because they
were driven out by the German Nazis. The Jews left Latvia not because
the Nazi advance and Soviet retreat offered them an "opportunity" to
leave for Russia, but to run awy from the Nazis, who were exterminating
each and every Jew they could find.
anzau...@hotmail.com
>anzaurr...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>What I can see is that you are (for the fourth time!) AVOIDING to
>>provide the source (even in Latvian!) of your numbers.
>Huh? Excuse me, but I cited the sources, and I gave you three links to
>what's on the Web from those sources.
>>You wrote:
>>>Salaspils at its most crowded could only hold 2000-3000 persons;
>>>Of the ca. 12 000 people held at Salaspils between 1941
>>>and 1944, ca. one-sixth, or 2000 people, lost their lives.
>>All I am asking from you is for you to either show your source or
>>admit that this is a pure falsification on your part. I asked this
>> question FOUR TIMES. In response, you give all kinds of
>> irrelevant BS and hurl
>>insults towards me. Is it my fault that you falsified data and were
>>caught lying?
>>Please give the source of your data and/or the calculations that
>>derived your data.
>>You don't think that the Nazi crimes were as horrifying as
>>the international community claims and to prove that, you
>> wrote down your (much lower) numbers. So, where did you
>> get these numbers and how were they derived? Is this too
>> much to ask? This seems trivial. Unless you falsified
>>these numbers, in which case you will not be able to answer
>>my question. So which is it?
>See the links I provided. I'm afraid they're in Latvian -- hire
> a translator, then.
Are you saying that if the readers want to find out what you are
claiming, they should hire a translator?
Let us see... Let us take a typical reader in Omaha, Nebraska. In order
to understand your claims, he should drive to the airport, buy an
airline ticket to New York (where he can find Latvian translators), fly
to New York, go to a translation agency and pay them $20 000 dollars
just to translate to them the 3 manuscripts in Latvian that may contain
evidence about Salspils?
How many readers are there? Maybe 10 000? And each should hire a
translator?! And all this just because you refuse to translate a couple
of paragraphs that supposedly prove your numbers?!
> Buy the books on the subject in English.
Let us take a typical reader in Omaha, Nebraska. In order to buy these
boks, he should drive to the airport, buy an airline ticket to San
Francisco (where he might be able to find such books), fly to San
Francisco, go to a bookstore and pay them $50 dollars and then read all
these? Just because you refuse to give quotes from these books that
supposedly prove your numbers?!
But I live in San Francisco. So I went to the second largest scientific
bookstores in the United States. There were no books that talk about
the Salaspils camp.
Do you have these books? Do you know where non-Latvian - American
and European - readers can buy them?
> Talk to a historian.
I did. Today I went to Stanford's History Department and talked to
two American professors - one professor of modern European History
and one professor of Jewish History. Both gave me the number of 55,000
to 87,000 Jews exterminated in the Salaspils camp.
You can read some of the supporting evidence for yourself by going to
the most authoritative American site devoted to the history of
Holocaust - Nizcor.org . Unlike your sites, whose content is
unavailable to American and European readers because it is not
translated into any official European Union language, the Nizkor has
nothing to hide and provides an English translation of the
interrogations of Friedrich Jeckeln, one of the German managers of
Salaspils, in which he admits to the interrogators that he was
responsible for the murder of "a total of 55,000 to 87,000 Jews
exterminated in the Salaspils
camp."(http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/ftp.py?camps/salaspils/jeckeln-interrogation.1245)
(Minutes from Jeckeln's interrogation on 14 December 1945 (Major
Zwetajew, interrogator; Sergeant Suur, interpreter), pp. 8-13,
Historical State Archives, Riga.
Can you provide - in English or any other official EU languages - any
evidence that contradicts this evidence from the Latvian Historical
State Archives? Or do you want your readers to "hire translators"?
You refuse to post English translations of the texts that supposedly
prove your numbers? OK, fine. Then give us the exact text that proves
YOUR numbers in Latvian!
>>What I can see is that you are (for the fourth time!) AVOIDING to
>>provide the source (even in Latvian!) of your numbers.
>Huh? Excuse me, but I cited the sources, and I gave you three links to
>what's on the Web from those sources.
The links that you give are long manuscripts in Latvian. Even if the
readers hired a translator, it would take him many months to translate
these texts. And without a translator, there is no way the reader can
find relevant paragraphs.
Why don't you humor the readers and post (in Latvian!!!) just a
couple of paragraphs that calculate the number of victims of
Salaspils?! I am asking you for this for the FIFTH TIME! And still
counting...
Why can't you quote relevant paragraphs, that calculate the capacity of
Salaspils and the number of victims? Are you saying that the whole text
of all 3 manuscripts is devoted to calculating this little number and
nothing else?!!!
>You fuckwad.
Is this your best English-language argument in support of your claims?
anzau...@hotmail.com
>There are 30,000 registered russian nazis in Edward Limonov's russian
> nazi party.
Edward Limonov's party is NAZI? What tree did you fall from? Where did
they say anything about hating Jews or any other ethnic group? From
what I have read, they espouse a weird form of the Communist ideology.
If anything, they may borow some of the ideas of early Mussolini (when
he was still in his Socialist incarnation).
>And then there are the three newly formed 'Putin Youth' communistic
>organizations.
Putin is not a communist. He is the very opposite: a pinochetist.
And what's wrong with Communists? Aren't (or weren't) some NATO
countries ruled by freely elected Communists? Is the Polish President
still a Communist? Or did the Communists lose their Presidency?
mart...@joymail.com
Nothing, as long as you ignore the fact that communist regimes have
killed over 110 million people. The Soviet Union killed 62 million
people. The Nazis only managed to kill 20 million.
Regards,
Martin
«Pas de deux»
news:1115234997.4...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The links that you give are long manuscripts in Latvian. Even if the
readers hired a translator, it would take him many months to translate
these texts. And without a translator, there is no way the reader can
find relevant paragraphs.
. That's your problem. Bugger off. You are a troublemaker and not
wanted in SCB.
anzau...@hotmail.com
><anzaurr...@hotmail.com> wrote
>>The links that you give are long manuscripts in Latvian. Even if the
>>readers hired a translator, it would take him many months to
translate
>>these texts. And without a translator, there is no way the reader can
>>find relevant paragraphs
>>Can you provide - in English or any other official EU languages -
any
>>evidence that contradicts this evidence from the Latvian Historical
>>State Archives? Or do you want your readers to "hire translators"?
> That's your problem.
It will become YOUR problem when you try to join NATO or EU and refuse
to translate your drivel into official EU languages, while insisting
that you have untranslatable evidence that the German Nazis aren't
guilty of the crimes against humanity at the Salaspils death camp and
that the Western historians are liars.
I for one will call my Congressman. And so will hundreds of thousands
of other American Jews.
anzau...@hotmail.com
>That's your problem. Bugger off.
If you have something substantive to say - say it. If not - get lost,
troll.
I am talking to Peteris Cedrinš, not to you, idiot. If you don't
want to read our discussion - don't read it.
>You are a troublemaker and not
> wanted in SCB.
Who are you to decide who is wanted and who is not?
mart...@joymail.com
anzaurr...@hotmail.com wrote:
> «Pas de deux» wrote:
>
> ><anzaurr...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
> >>The links that you give are long manuscripts in Latvian. Even if
the
> >>readers hired a translator, it would take him many months to
> translate
> >>these texts. And without a translator, there is no way the reader
can
>
> >>find relevant paragraphs
>
> >>Can you provide - in English or any other official EU languages -
> any
> >>evidence that contradicts this evidence from the Latvian Historical
> >>State Archives? Or do you want your readers to "hire translators"?
>
> > That's your problem.
>
> It will become YOUR problem when you try to join NATO or EU and
refuse
> to translate your drivel into official EU languages,
??
Latvia is an official language of the EU. See:
europa.eu.int/comm/education/ policies/lang/languages/index_en.html
Regards,
Martin
«Pas de deux»
news:1115258209.6...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> It will become YOUR problem when you try to join NATO or EU and refuse
> to translate your drivel into official EU languages, while insisting
> that you have untranslatable evidence that the German Nazis aren't
> guilty of the crimes against humanity at the Salaspils death camp and
> that the Western historians are liars. I for one will call my
> Congressman. And so will hundreds of thousands of other American Jews.
What a loser fuckwit. I got news for you: we are already in NATO and
EU, and all the calling of Congressman by "hundreds of thousands of
American Jews" didn't stop it.
By the way, were you under the impression that NATO and EU membership
has to be approved by Congress?
Yeah, that and ban all other languages except English, everywhere in the
world....
Ho ho ho. Durniu ir baznycioje musa!
«Pas de deux»
news:1115258847.6...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Pas de deux» wrote:
>>That's your problem. Bugger off.
> If you have something substantive to say - say it. If not - get lost,
> troll. I am talking to Peteris Cedrins, not to you, idiot. If you
> don't want to read our
> discussion - don't read it.
>>You are a troublemaker and not wanted in SCB.
> Who are you to decide who is wanted and who is not?
I am a long-term bona fide member of SCB and I have made a worthwhile
contribution for a decade. Your are a johnny-come-lately blowthrough
tumbleweed, here today gone tomorrow. Un pétard mouillé. Soon you will
be washed away, and no one will remeber you. Ask what's-her-name, one
of your crowd that made some trouble here a couple of years ago.
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
I did -- Latvian _is_ an official language of the EU.
As to "Western historians" -- Latvia happens to be in the West.
Kangeris is of the University of Stockholm; Ezergailis at Cornell.
But if you'd like me to isolate a couple of the salient passages, here
--
"A. Neparta ar zvērestu apliecinātajā un notariāli ASV tiesai
apstiprinātajā liecībā, kas sniegta 2000. gada 20. oktobrī,
apliecināts, ka Salaspils nometnes ieslodzīto skaits pat pieplūduma
posmos nepārsniedzis 2000 - 3000 cilvēku. Patiesībā tas bijis
mazāks par 2000 (pretstatā padomju propagandas minētajiem 53
tūkstošiem). Saskaņā ar A. Neparta uzskaites kartotēkas datiem
Salaspils nometnē tika pakārti četri ieslodzītie. Ieraksti liecina,
ka, bēgot pār koncentrācijas nometnes žogu, nošauti desmit, pēc
noķeršanas par bēgšanu - seši, bet pēc pārvešanas uz
Centrālcietumu - simts ieslodzītie. Salaspils nometnē no slimību
epidēmijām nomira apmēram 300 baltkrievu bērnu. Cilvēki gāja
bojā arī no bada, grūtā darba un slimībām smago darba un
sadzīves apstākļu dēļ. Pētījumi gan mūsu valsts, gan arī
Vācijas arhīvos un bibliotēkās liecina, ka kopumā Salaspilī
dzīvību zaudēja apmēram 2000 cilvēku - tikpat daudz, cik tajā
laikā nometnē vienlaikus bija ieslodzīto (nevis 100 tūkstoši
cilvēku, kā apgalvots padomju mitoloģijā)."
The above is based on the testimony of the person who kept the data at
Salaspils, sworn in a US court in 2000.
http://www.tvnet.lv/news/latvia/index.php?id=4182774
"Par Salaspils nometni ir sastāstītas neiedomājamas lietas. Pat
padomju enciklopēdijā rakstīja, ka katru nedēļu ieradies viens
ešelons, ko iznīcināja. Patiesībā tur varēja uzturēties kādi
pāris tūkstoši ieslodzīto. Nometni vācieši būvēja ebreju
izvietošanai pārejas periodam. Oficiāli Salaspili sauca "Erweitertes
Polizeigefängnis und Arbeitserziehungslager" (paplašinātais
policijas cietums un darba, pāraudzināšanas nometne). Tur turēja
arī leģionā un policijas bataljonos sodītos. Zināms, Salaspilī
notika nežēlības un upuri bija, bet nometnes statusu nekad
nemainīja. Vēsturnieks Marģers Vestermanis saka, ka tā bijusi
koncentrācijas nometne, bet viņš nepareizi citē vācu dokumentus.
Himlers savā laikā pat lika izmeklēt Salaspils lietu, jo daži
tiesneši bija rakstījuši, ka tā ir koncentrācijas nometne, un
viņa dienests bija neizpratnē, kā policijai var būt sava
koncentrācijas nometne, ja tādas iestādes pakļāvās Centrālajai
koncentrācijas nometņu pārvaldei un viņa SS aparātam. Reiha
drošības dienesta galvenā pārvalde pēc tam sastādīja uz divām
lapām dokumentu, kur bija definēts, kas ir Salaspils nometne, lai
nebūtu pārpratumu. Vēlāk pats Himlers vēl sastādīja dokumentu,
kas Salaspilī būtu jādara, lai to pārvērstu par koncentrācijas
nometni. Bet Vestermanis šo dokumentu citē tā, it kā Salaspils jau
būtu tāda nometne. Citādi ir ar Mežaparka ebreju geto. To
pārvērta koncentrācijas nometnē. Lai dabūtu tādu statusu, vācu
normas paredzēja, ka jāpastāv zināmam darba vietu skaitam,
režīmam, apģērbam un nometnei jāstrādā SS labā."
http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/slepkarm.htm
Strods' study is available in the 2000 Yearbook from the Museum of the
Occupation of Latvia, by mail --
http://www.occupationmuseum.lv/eng/services/gramatas.html
"It is impossible to accept as believable the data issued after World
War II by the KGB's Commission to Investigate Fascist Crimes, which
reported that 53,700 to 190,000 people had been killed at Salaspils.
Recent surveys of the camp area have only found 3,043 square meters of
burial grounds. Thus, the above numbers would mean that each square
meter contains 18 to 63 corpses, which is impossible."
Heinrihs Strods "Salaspils koncentrācijas nometne (1941. gada oktobris
- 1944. gada septembris)" (The Concentration Camp at Salaspils October
1941 - September 1944).
...
Ezergailis' book is available at Amazon --
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/9984905438/103-4097303-3119865?v=glance
As I have said a few times now, I don't see what arguing about these
numbers has to do with your original post. Answer Vidas' post,
Anzaurres. Try to return to the topic you began.
/P
daniloff
> contribution for a decade. Your are a johnny-come-lately blowthrough
> tumbleweed, here today gone tomorrow. Un pétard mouillé. Soon you
will
> be washed away, and no one will remeber you. Ask what's-her-name,
one
> of your crowd that made some trouble here a couple of years ago.
It is very amusing to watch somebody trying set border and hiérarchie
even in Internet like at times of Mumbo-Yumbo tribes. Pas de deux, you
are very obsolete. It is possible to be present at your capitalistic
group mignon even such féroce communistes as me :-)
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
spectrum so extreme that such distinctions can't really be drawn with
any certainty or even meaning.
I find it quite bizarre that you would make baseless claims about
Nazism among Balts but blithely dismiss concerns about extremists in
Russia, Anzaurres. You are a strange bird.
The NBP was founded by Dugin and Limonov, with Dugin as the ideologue.
Before this, Dugin was on the central committee of Pamyat, the
extremely vicious (and violently anti-Semitic) Russian chauvinist
group.
In 1994, Dugin and Limonov signed the "Declaration of the Revolutionary
Opposition" together with Barkashov -- perhaps you won't have so much
trouble equivocating on what Barkashov is, since his group likes to
strut about bearing banners that say "Kill All Jews!"
Dugin has also flirted with Anpilov in the past, calling him "Our Red
Brother" -- Anpilov is known for hysterical anti-Semitic speeches.
It is true that these boys do not get along very well much of the time
-- just as they don't get along with what they call "that dishonest
undertaking of the former Zionist Zhirinovsky/Eidelstein."
http://www.social-ecology.org/lgp/issues/lgp34.html
Vladimir Linderman, the head of the NBP in Latvia and the man who ran
it in Russia whilst Limonov was in prison, said that "the National
Bolsheviks are a qualitatively new phenomenon which draws on the most
useful elements of Soviet bolshevism, from Mussolini, from German
National Socialism before Hitler."
According to Erik Van Ree, "National Bolshevism can most properly be
defined as that radical tendency which combines a commitment to class
struggle and total nationalization of the means of production with
extreme state chauvinism."
The authors of the hit song "Ay-ya-ya-yai, they killed a black man!"
are former National Bolsheviks, by the way, and apparently enjoy
parties at which they eat large chocolate cakes shaped like black men
--
http://www.sptimes.ru/archive/times/494/features/blacks.htm
"Despite their questionable interpretations of judaism, Jewish history,
or the history of Russian-Jewish relations, the Eurasianists of the
1920's advocated assimilation and generally rejected the 'racist
assumptions of radical Russian chauvinism' (pp. 36-37). By contrast,
their self-proclaimed contemporary followers have gone out of their way
to 'ethnicize' Eurasian ideology. A good case in point are the writings
of Aleksandr Dugin, whose eclectic ideological world-view combines
elanents of 'geo-political Eurasianism' with a whole gamut of ideas of
fascist provenance, from Carl Schmidt's view of politics in terms of
the 'friend-foe' distinction to the attack on 'mondialism' as the
global ideology of the 'Atlanticist empire' led by the United States
(an idea borrowed from the contemporary West-European extreme right).
In this scheme, needless to add, the Jews occupy the position of
national 'foe' (hostis), acting as agents of an 'effeminate' trading
new world order designed to 'emasculate' Eurasia's 'heroic
civilization.' Worse still, Dugin minimizes the Holocaust, seeing in it
an aberration of the Nazis' 'conservative revolution,' and equating it
with the calamities visited upon Russia by 'Jewish communists."
http://www.24hourscholar.com/p/articles/mi_qa3763/is_200403/ai_n9363937
See also Levkin --
http://www.arctogaia.com/public/eng/press.html
Nowadays, Dugin and his views have gained quite a bit of
"respectability" (in Russia).
Betsy Gidwitz:
"The National Bolshevik Party, established in 1993 by writer and poet
Eduard Limonov and mystical philosopher Alexander Dugin, combines
Russian nationalism, national socialism, tsarist autocracy,
Christianity, nihilism, and misogyny in its philosophy. Notwithstanding
the influence of Nazi ideology in its approach, it often appears less
anti-Semitic and less racist than the RNE offshoots."
http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-7.htm
You need only look at the NBP's symbolism to see that the group is a
bizarre synthesis of fascism and bolshevism -- their flag and their
armbands are almost identical to the Nazis', with a black hammer and
sickle instead of a swastika.
Thomas Smitherman:
"The National Bol'shevik Party was a joint venture originally between
Limonov and a philosopher named Aleksandr Dugin. It dates from perhaps
1994, shortly after the failure of the Moscow patriotic uprising. The
original idea was that Dugin would provide the ideology and Limonov, a
more dynamic public speaker, would rally the youth of Russia to join
the
movement.
"The NBP was always necessarily a non-Marxist party. However, it
cannot
be seen in the context of European anti-communist fascism (which also
exists in Russia in the form of certain neo-Nazi groups). The NBP does
largely admire Hitler, Mussolini, and has many Germanophiles in its
ranks, but their largest honours are bestowed on Lenin and Stalin (who
are, of course, not accused of being 'Jewish agents'). The NBP
ideology
is certainly fascist but not particularly anti-Semitic (well, on a
Russian scale). Well, Limonov's real name is Jewish, and he is half or
quarter Jewish. They are anti-American to a point of irrational racist
(well Americans aren't a race, I guess) hostility towards the people
themselves."
http://www.mail-archive.com/marxist-le...@lists.econ.utah.edu/msg03827.html
"Dugin left the NBP in the mid-late 90s (I forget again exactly when
but
by the way he does have a web page with some articles in English). He
said Limonov was a very gifted speaker but did not take the ideology
seriously (probably true). Dugin is now the key player in the
'Eurasianist' movement and talks only about geopolitics. I am told he
is on Sergei Glazyov list for the Russian duma elections this year.
Dugin used to work closely with Zyuganov and was one of his key
advisors
but they had a falling out some time ago and it seems he is simply an
old eccentric with whom it is hard to get along."
Eric P. Vijnants:
"But first as an introductory example one that illustrates the above
merging of right and left extremism so characteristic for the post WWII
era.
"For example Alexander Dugin in Russia was one of the founders of the
National Bolshevik Party yet next became active in the newly created
Eurasia Political Party. He also became a part of the Golovin Circle.
Yevgeny Golovin, a scholar in European mystical literature and poetry,
had gathered two others, Yuri Mamleyev, a Christian philosopher, and
Geidar Jema, a specialist in Islam studies, to study mysticism.
"Dugin was a natural member of this circle because he had mastery of
nine foreign languages. His first contribution was translation into
Russian of Julius Evola's Pagan Imperialism. When Soviet authorities
learned of his contacts with the Golovin Circle, he was dismissed from
the Moscow Aviation Institute. To earn a living, Dugin became a Moscow
street sweeper, but continued his study of right-wing and neo-Fascist
thought.
"The introduction of more freedoms after 1987 allowed Dugin to enter
Russian politics. In 1987, he joined the anti-Semitic Pamyat (Memory)
group. Leaders of Pamyat appreciated his abilities and, in late 1988,
he assumed a seat on Pamyat's Central Council. By the middle of 1989,
Dugin decided that he could no longer associate with Pamyat because of
its low intellectual level. He decided to travel to Western Europe and
contact leading neo-Fascist figures. On his travels, he had talks with
Alain de Benoist, the French intellectual, and Jean Franqois Thiriart,
the Belgian neo-Fascist. They reinforced his distaste for the Ameri
events left this movement as a relic of a bygone age until Dugin
adopted it. Dugin gathered allies, from Mufti Talgat Tadzhuddin on the
Muslim side to Rabbi Avrom Shmulevich on the Jewish side, to form the
Eurasia Nationwide Political Movement on April 21, 2001. Since then,
Dugin has been active building the movement and attracting political
allies. He has been wooing Russian President Vladimir Putin to adopt
the Eurasian concept as an alternative to the American alliance."
http://www.epwijnants-lectures.com/modernistreligions2.html
Regards,
/P
«Pas de deux»
"daniloff" <mdan...@newmail.ru> wrote in message
news:1115284215.7...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
* I can't stop you - but like the other tête de merde, you will be
gone soon and we will still be here.
Now go and drink an overdose of samogon.
GK
Eugene Holman
"=?windows-1257?q?P=E7teris_Cedri=F2=F0_(Peteris_Cedrins)?="
<ced...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Can you provide - in English or any other official EU languages..."
>
> I did -- Latvian _is_ an official language of the EU.
>
> As to "Western historians" -- Latvia happens to be in the West.
> Kangeris is of the University of Stockholm; Ezergailis at Cornell.
<deletions>
Not to quibble, but unless something radical has happened within the past
year or two, Andrew Ezergailis is professor of history at Ithaca College.
His wife teaches at the German Department at Cornell.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Cornell class of 1966
"Hail to thee, our fair Cornell."
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
believe that grants from Cornell enabled him to do some of his
research, however.
/P
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
Ezergailis/Ezergaile (who was indeed a professor of German literature
at Cornell) died of cancer on New Year's Day this year.
Some of her poems can be found at this site, at which a volume of her
poetry can also be ordered --
/P
anzau...@hotmail.com
>As I have said a few times now, I don't see what arguing about these
>numbers has to do with your original post.
>Try to return to the topic you began.
Maybe I didn't make it clear but that WAS the whole point of my post. I
wanted to find out 2 things:
1. Why many on the Latvian side claim that the German Nazis didn't kill
tens of millions in Salaspils.
2. Why many on the Russian side claim that Stalin's occupation of the
Baltic states was justified by international treaties
I got no rebuttal from the Russian on the second question. So I assume
there is no doubt that the 1940 occupation was a major international
crime, justified only by the criminal Molotov-Ribbetrop Pact.
You tried to rebutt my first point. So I am digging.
>Answer Vidas' post, Anzaurres.
I cannot find any post from a poster named Vidas. Could you please
either give me the link or the text of his post?
But thanks for posting some evidence. Now we can talk. Unfortunately, I
cannot understand the arguments in Latvian. Could you please take time
off from writing you usual super-long meandering posts and translate
the main points of the quoted passages? Or maybe some other kind soul
will do us all a great favor and translate relevant sentences?
But let's address the passage in English:
>"It is impossible to accept as believable the data issued after World
>War II by the KGB's Commission to Investigate Fascist Crimes, which
>reported that 53,700 to 190,000 people had been killed at Salaspils.
>Recent surveys of the camp area have only found 3,043 square meters of
>burial grounds. Thus, the above numbers would mean that each square
>meter contains 18 to 63 corpses, which is impossible."
If we assumed that the Nazis gave each dead camp inmate his own grave
with a star or a cross on top - yes, that would be a valid argument.
But that's not how the Nazis operatated. They dug huge pits and dumped
bodies into it.
Let us assume that the pit was only 5 meters deep. 3,043 square meters
times 5 meters equals a bit over 15 000 cubic meters.
What is the "enveloped" volume of a human being, averaged over a
typical population of men, women and children? Say, 1.5 meters long by
0.2 thick by 0.5 wide. That's 0.15 cubic meters.
If we divide the total volume of the pit - 15 000 cubic meters - by the
volume occupied by an average body - 0.15 cubic meters - we shall get:
15 000/0.15 = 100 000.
One hundred thousand bodies!
I am sorry but your argument is refuted.
J. Anderson
<anzau...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115317191.9...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> 1. Why many on the Latvian side claim that the German Nazis didn't kill
tens of millions in Salaspils.
Would the mathematician possibly be confusing thousands and millions here?
anzau...@hotmail.com
Don't you have your own web site at Nizkor that discusses Salaspils?
What do you personally think about the number of victims in Salaspils?
http://www2.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/h/holman.eugene/ftp.py?people
/h/holman.eugene/2001/holman.0105
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
suppose is "refuted" or provided in Usenet is as moronic as your
assumption that because no Russian answered you about Stalinism there
is some serious conclusion you can come to.
At least some of the graves were exhumed by medical experts in April
1945. Rather than the 7000 children Soviet propaganda claimed, for
instance, 632 children's corpses were found, 311 under the age of five
(I assume that most of these are the Belarusian children I mentioned
earlier).
The numbers, Anzaurres, vary wildly, for instance growing from 53 000
in the 1970 Soviet Latvian (Little) Encyclopedia to 100 000 incl. 7000
children in the 1986 Enyclopedia, by which time gruesome medical
experiments had been added for effect. Other Soviet "estimates" have
been simply insane, with some claiming that a million Jews were killed
in Latvia.
Reread your first post, Sir or Madam, and you will see that numbers
were _not_ the issue; the designation of the camp was the issue, and I
think I showed your assumption to be baseless.
Eugene Holman already commented on the complaint about the designation
in RIA-Novosti:
> In this book the Salaspils concentration camp, which many
> see as the "Latvian Auschwitz" and in which Nazis murdered
> about 100,000 during WWII, the camp is referred to as "a
> corrective labor camp."
Holman:
"For much of its existence that is precisely what it was. Salaspils was
intended to house Latvian dissidents, draft-dodgers, and conscientious
objectors. Jews were involved in its construction, but they were killed
the camp was completed. During some of its existence Salaspils also
served
as a concentration point and transit camp for Jews deported from
Central
Europe to Latvia, many of them subsequently being sent to other camps
and
subcamps in Latvia and Estonia, others being exterminated. The problem
with Salaspils was that it had a particularly nasty and sadistic
regime,
for which reason is death rate was higher than that of camps with
similar
functions. For a good introduction to the history and function of the
Salaspils camp, see chapter XI, 'Ghettos and Camps', in A. Ezergailis's
book _The Holocaust in Latvia: 1941-1944_ devoted to concentration
camps
in Latvia."
Vidas' post is signed "Vidas" -- it's in this thread. Perhaps you could
read and respond rather than brandishing calculations derived from
insufficient data.
I came across a translation of some comments by Andrievs Ezergailis on
the Kalējs trial, translated by Juris Žagariņš. Here is an excerpt:
"Then there remain the 'crimes' of the command of the guard unit at
Salaspils. Not one of the witnesses from Salaspils testifies / . . . /
that Kalejs ever committed any atrocities. In one sense, the chances of
the prosecutor depend on the historical fiction that Salaspils can be
characterized as a 'death' camp, i.e. comparable to Auschwitz and
Treblinka. There are various stories about Salaspils - some say that
tens, others that hundreds of thousands of civilians were killed there.
The least true of these fictions, one which even Zuroff does not claim,
is that some 7000 Jewish children were exterminated there. Recently
Arturs Neparts, a three-year inmate of the Salaspils camp wrote in
_Laiks_:
"'Even though the camp was no health resort, the inmates did at least
have heated barracks for shelter and they did have the right to receive
food supplies from their relatives outside . . . It would be a stretch
to call this camp an extermination camp even though some 90% of inmates
were destroyed after they were transferred to concentration camps in
Germany.'" /. . ./ Zuroff with his characterization of Salaspils as a
"death" camp did indisputably manage to enrage the British press but if
Kalejs' attorney were able to remove the aureole of 'death' from
Salaspils then, I can not imagine what would become of the case against
Kalejs. I would like to meet the prosecutor who would be able to
sustain
such a mirage of exaggeration about the Salaspils camp. Notwithstanding
such exaggeration, it is the strongest card that any prosecutor can
hope
to hold."
[In both excerpts I made minor adjustments of spelling.]
I can also recommend the article "Sāpīgā patiesība" by Gunta Sloga,
first published in the newspaper _Diena_ --
http://vip.latnet.lv/lpra/salaspils.htm
This is, however, in Latvian, an official EU language. I can give you a
discount, Anzaurres. $20 000 did you say? For you, I'll do it for $19
999...
Basically it's a list of myths and truths about the Salaspils camp, and
includes testimony from survivors (who were there for a prolonged
period, until the closing of the camp). They do not describe a "death
camp."
I suspect, Anzaurre, that at least part of the discrepancy between
Jeckeln's testimony and the lower estimates is the fact that many of
those who were in transit were died elsewhere -- primarily at
Šķirotava and Biķernieki.
Marģers Vestermanis, for example, cites Wolfgang Scheffler's estimate
that ca. 28 000 foreign Jews were deported to Latvia. Of these, only 11
000 ended up in the ghetto. 1000 died in transit and were buried at
their point of arrival -- Šķirotava, 2000 at Jumpravmuiža, "a few
thousand" men died at Salaspils, and 11 000 - 12 000 were killed at
Biķernieki (the total dead at Biķernieki might be 35 000, primarily
Jews but also ca. 10 000 prisoners of war, some political prisoners,
etc.).
If you use these numbers, you will see that the inflated numbers for
Salaspils don't add up, my dear mathematician. I am leaving the numbers
of Latvian Jews killed aside -- as I said, the mainstream estimate is
now 70 000. Not at Salaspils, however.
The fact is that Soviet sources _must_ be questioned, and if you don't
realize that you must know zilch about the Soviets. Any Soviet
reference work tends to be completely unreliable. Even testimony is
unreliable -- please remember all of those damning "confessions"
extracted during the Purges.
The point is not the numbers. Latvians are not attempting to minimize
the horror of the Holocaust -- individual historians are investigating
history, that is all.
The essence of the Holocaust is much more important than the numbers --
and I would add that the essence of totalitarianism in all its
varieties is the most important lesson to be learned.
Regards,
/P
Pekka de Groot
>I did. Today I went to Stanford's History Department and talked to
>two American professors - one professor of modern European History
>and one professor of Jewish History. Both gave me the number of 55,000
>to 87,000 Jews exterminated in the Salaspils camp.
Could you ask them what their source was?
>You can read some of the supporting evidence for yourself by going to
>the most authoritative American site devoted to the history of
>Holocaust - Nizcor.org . Unlike your sites, whose content is
>unavailable to American and European readers because it is not
>translated into any official European Union language, the Nizkor has
>nothing to hide and provides an English translation of the
>interrogations of Friedrich Jeckeln, one of the German managers of
>Salaspils, in which he admits to the interrogators that he was
>responsible for the murder of "a total of 55,000 to 87,000 Jews
>exterminated in the Salaspils
>camp."(http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/ftp.py?camps/salaspils/jeckeln-interrogation.1245)
>(Minutes from Jeckeln's interrogation on 14 December 1945 (Major
>Zwetajew, interrogator; Sergeant Suur, interpreter), pp. 8-13,
>Historical State Archives, Riga.
I'm only guessing here but those numbers sound a lot like the total
numbers of Jews killed in Latvia. Hilberg quotes the number 70,000 as
the total number. Maybe there is a spot of Soviet propaganda in the
transcription or maybe the interrogating officer didn't understand the
particulars of the Holocaust in the Baltic countries, or there is a
glitch in the translation.
There were about 30,000 Jews in the Riga Ghetto. Thousands Reich Jews
were also sent there, but most of them were not housed in Salaspils.
Basically all were killed in Rumbula (and later in other places as
well). This happened in November and December 1941, at a time when
Salaspils was still under construction. There is also some evidence
that suggests that the (early) camps in Riga (and Minsk) were to be
temporary transit camps.
It also seems that Salaspils has become a kind of a red herring in the
sense that few people realize that the Holocaust was conducted in a
different fashion in the former SU. There were other smallish camps in
Riga as well, but for some reason many think that Salaspils was the
only one. Also, people do not usually know that gentiles were housed
there too. Actually the last Jews in Salaspils, except for two
dentists, were transferred to the Riga Ghetto in early January 1943.
The camps in the east were not concentration camps in the same sense
as the KZs in the Reich, their character was much more in line with
the labor camps in the Ghettos of Poland/GG and other places.
There may have been plans to convert the Salaspils camp to an
extermination camp at one time but the plans never came to fruition.
Some of the Aktion Reinhardt personnel were stationed in Riga before
they were transferred to Lublin.
>Can you provide - in English or any other official EU languages - any
>evidence that contradicts this evidence from the Latvian Historical
>State Archives? Or do you want your readers to "hire translators"?
I'll give you a quote from Ezergailis' "The Holocaust in Latvia"
(p.365):
"The purposes for building the Salaspils camp are unclear. Initially,
in 1941, according to some statements by Lange, it was a rush-project
built to house the Reich Jews, but as soon as the camp was finished,
about September 1942, it was turned over to quarter Gentiles, mostly
Latvian and slavic political prisoners. During March 1943 there were
1,990 prisoners in Salaspils, [64] but according to some estimates as
many as 6,000 had been squeezed into it."
[64] Stimmungs- und Lage Bericht for 1-31 March 1943 (LVVA,
P-082-1-39, p. 96)
In other words, the source is an original German one.
Cheers,
Pekka de G.
Aleks
Hang on a sec. A camp is a camp no matter how many people died there.
Fighting over how many seem sacrilege.
"Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)" <ced...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115336406.9...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
«Pas de deux»
Soviet régime to carry out deportations to Siberia, to hunt down,
torture and butcher anti-Soviet partisans fighting for freedom, and
their role as Communist party members and KGB opeartives in generally
repressing, harassing and mistreating the Baltic populations for 50
years.
If you don't want to talk about that, fuck off, you are not welcome in
SCB.
GK
<anzau...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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