China Dumping US Dollar
www.freedomtofascism.com
China may lead US economy to collapse dumping US dollar
The U.S. dollar is standing at the edge of a cliff, and most people
don't even know it.
Data released by the New York Federal Reserve shows that foreign
central banks have been net sellers of U.S. treasuries over the past
five weeks, with $48 billion having been sold since late July, and $32
billion in just the last two weeks.
The U.S. runs budget deficits each year. If foreigners stop buying
treasuries-or worse, start selling them-the dollar could be in big
trouble.
The reduction in treasuries "comes as a big surprise and it is
definitely worrying," said Hans Redeker, foreign exchange strategy
chief at bnp Paribas, one of Europe's biggest banks.
The Telegraph reported that, according to Redeker, the numbers
demonstrate "that world central banks are in a hurry to get out of the
U.S."
The nation that analysts are watching especially closely at this stage
is China. Whether or not Beijing is selling its dollars can't be
officially confirmed until November, when the Treasury releases its
tic data. However, top Beijing officials have been signaling for at
least two years that dollar sales are increasingly imminent.
This past August, two Chinese government officials highlighted China's
massive U.S. dollar holdings (which include treasuries) and how it
supports the value of the U.S. currency. They also noted that Beijing
could use those holdings as a political weapon to counter
congressional calls to revalue the yuan and impose trade sanctions on
Chinese goods. Chinese state media referred to the country's stockpile
of U.S. dollars as its economic "nuclear option," capable of
destroying the dollar at will.
Beijing also clearly signaled that it would begin "diversifying" out
of the dollar earlier this year when it announced plans to rebalance
its $1.34 trillion currency reserves, which are mostly U.S. bonds.
Already Beijing has created a $300 billion investment fund to use
those dollars to purchase other assets in an attempt to increase its
investment returns.
It should come as no shock, then, that China would now be selling its
dollar holdings.
The danger, as the Telegraph notes, relates to the fact that China
holds such a large amount of treasuries. Any confirmed evidence that
China was no longer supporting the dollar, and was actually selling
it, risks setting off "an unstoppable stampede" in which other nations
would seek to dump their holdings before China swamps the market and
demand for dollars is overwhelmed.
The implications of a run on the dollar due to Chinese treasury-
dumping go far beyond just the value of the greenback.
More!
http://english.pravda.ru/business/finance/10-09-2007/96909-us_economy-0
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Scotius (Ponti Fickatur)
Didn't George Bush Sr. once toot his own horn about the
connections he was making in China?
Econotron
news:njpkg3l1viia7iogc...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 12:02:03 -0400, www.freedomtofascism.com
> <tr...@r.us> wrote:
>
>>http://english.pravda.ru/business/finance/10-09-2007/96909-us_economy-0
>>
>>China may lead US economy to collapse dumping US dollar
>>
>>The U.S. dollar is standing at the edge of a cliff, and most people
>>don't even know it.
>>
>
>>http://english.pravda.ru/business/finance/10-09-2007/96909-us_economy-0
>
> Didn't George Bush Sr. once toot his own horn about the
> connections he was making in China?
>
the stability of US currency. Apparently, we have little hope that the Fed
will do that, as it is mostly interested in bailing out imprudent investors
and the Wall Street swindle. Greatly lauded rate drop is the stupidest thing
that one can imagine in the current situation, and serves only the above
purpose. At the time when the country needs savings and new investments, the
Fed seems to be doing everything to foster the opposite.
e.
Vid...@tcq.net
> "Scotius (Ponti Fickatur)" <wolvz...@mnsi.net> wrote in messagenews:njpkg3l1viia7iogc...@4ax.com...
you are right, low interest rates plus low taxation, and
underregulation of the rich means no savings, and lots of bubbles.
Richard Eich
> On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 22:35:35 GMT, "Econotron" <njmf...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >China & Japan holding such large $ reserves is rather positive factor for
> >the stability of US currency.
>
>
> the equivalent of 20% of our economy in cash and debt is great for us!
> LOL.
>
> They can sink us at will now without firing a shot. Instead they're
> just going to keep buying up US productive assets with the cash and
> making it even worse for us.
>
> www.economyincrisis.org.
Can't tell you how happy I am to see you posting here again.
(I'm seeing this in alt.politics.economics).
Harold Burton
www.freedomtofascism.com <tr...@r.us> wrote:
> http://english.pravda.ru/business/finance/10-09-2007/96909-us_economy-0
>
> China may lead US economy to collapse dumping US dollar
Yawn, ya'll be sure to let us know when that happens. Snicker.
Harold Burton
retro...@comcast.net wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 22:35:35 GMT, "Econotron" <njmf...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >China & Japan holding such large $ reserves is rather positive factor for
> >the stability of US currency.
>
>
> Oh yeah, having our principal competitor in the word, China, holding
> the equivalent of 20% of our economy in cash and debt is great for us!
Actually it is. Prove me wrong, fool.
Snicker.
Vid...@tcq.net
> In article <n4qlg35u50tatbpcbj6d1b3t5c0tju0...@4ax.com>,
>
> retrogro...@comcast.net wrote:
> > On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 22:35:35 GMT, "Econotron" <njmfi...@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > >China & Japan holding such large $ reserves is rather positive factor for
> > >the stability of US currency.
>
> > Oh yeah, having our principal competitor in the word, China, holding
> > the equivalent of 20% of our economy in cash and debt is great for us!
>
> Actually it is. Prove me wrong, fool.
>
> Snicker.
sounds rather conservative/libertarian to me. i have never yet met a
conservative/libertarian that understands debt. cheney, reagan proved
deficits do not matter. hey its other peoples money. something
conservatives know all to well.
Clave
news:3u7mg3t25s826939k...@4ax.com...
>
> I keep trying to quit.
"Just when I thought that I was out they pull me back in."
s.p beckons, retro...
Jim
goof...@gmail.com
I hope China starts dumping dollars. America needs a wake-up call.
It's time to bring industry back to America. The only ones to benefit
from free trade are the upper one percenters.
maxw...@my-deja.com
> In article <vqkqe3habl1gj1b2rkknv7flfnma0fl...@4ax.com>,
You want to know when it happens? It is time to stop believing what
the
Bush camp wants you to hear and start listening to what they are
saying
and watch what they do. This is they only way you will know what it is
they
want and what motivates their actions.
The problem: Trade deficit
If you have been paying attention over the last few years then you
will
know that nearly everyone in the US government agrees the US trade
deficit
is getting far too large, especially with China.
The way the Bush camp and supporting economist want to address this
problem is to convince the Chinese that their currency; the yuan
should
rise against the dollar, This would be accomplished by allowing the
yuan
to "float" on the global currency exchange and the Chinese would
diversify
their foreign capital holdings.
The most prominent report of this was when Treasury Sec. Paulson,
Commerce Secretary Carlos Gutierrez, Labor Secretary Elaine Chao,
Health and Human Services Secretary Mike Leavitt, Energy Secretary
Sam Bodman and US Trade Representative Susan Schwab and
Fed Chairman Bernanke all went to China late last year to convince
the Chinese to let the yuan rise against the dollar. With the size of
that delegation you would think they meant business. What is funny
is the chinese told them what they wanted them to hear. That they
would let the yuan rise, and then kept pretty much to their same
policy. Paulson then appealed to the IMF to investigate and conclude
that the chinese yuan was undervalued to the dollar. The IMF did not
conclude what Paulson wanted to hear and instead concluded the
dollar was overvalued accross the board. I like Paulson disagree with
the IMF report in August of this year that concludes this because the
dollar is the most freely traded currency in the world. The same can
in no way be said about the yuan.
You may also know that there is a bipartisian bill to place tariffs
on
chinese imports. Any time there is any discussion by a member of
congress to limit trade or place tariffs on chinese imports then
Paulson says "no bad idea" , Susan Schwab says the same thing
as well as Bernanke. Bush goes out on a limb and calls it
"isolationism"
but no one is sure why.
Now they don't ever really open up and say why such a approach
is bad they just say it is bad and they leave members of both parties
wondering why. However in some cases the phrase "trade war" has
been brought up. They are willing to shoot down any talk of
protectionism
no matter how much it may help american manufactures and workers
The reason then becomes clear: They know that the chinese has
the US by the balls. If tariffs or other protectionist measures were
placed
on China then the chinese would dump dollars sparking a global down
turn.
They also know that all those US corporate assets in China would be
in danger of being lost. So the US was duped by China and like a farm
nearing forclosure they aren't about to do anything that may upset
the
creditor, and all they can do is wonder how to get out of this mess.
Ever wonder about all the sudden recalls of products made in China?
Didn't seem to be a problem last year.
Vid...@tcq.net
well spoken.
Vid...@tcq.net
we know free trade does not work, its unfixable. it is for the
benefits of the few. and that is reflected in trade, not only the
trade statistics themselves, but also in who is getting wealthy. a
class of rentiers. it is simply redressed imperialism.
so the funny thing is that the rich rentier class has proven lenin
right, give a capitalist enough rope, and they will hang themselves
every time, or something on that order.
paulson simply cannot reign in his greed. it is impossible to keep
things going as is. but their ideology which is greed based is hard
wired in. the chinese communists now own the conservatives. i wonder
when the crowing will start on who really won the cold war.
the communists, or the stupid free market conservatives. russia is
also backsliding, like china, there is nothing we can do about either.
they own us. we make nothing. our military as well as our population
relies on communism to support our economy.
thank you milton friedman, and all austrian/conservative/libertarian
type of economists. treason be thy name.
maxw...@my-deja.com
> direct costs. They shed blood and sacrifice countless people. With the
> demise of the Soviet Union many think China is our adversary that most
> poses a risk of serious conflict and potential for war.
>
> Now if we hand them the power to cripple us through debt financing, do
> you really want to trust they won't use it at some point in the
> future? They don't have to destroy us with it, they can just threaten
> us to get their way where our interests collide.
>
> But imagine if they wanted full fledged war. Imagine what they could
> accomplish without firing a shot, at only economic losses for
> themselves that in no way compare to the losses nations embrace for
> war. They write off some billions in debt, and cause a great
> depression in the US. The goods they now sell to the US can be
> diverted to their own populace, and production reduced. You don't have
> to be very clever to figure out how to leverage the power of two
> trillion dollars in another country's economy. And the Chinese are
> exceedingly clever and long term thinkers.
>
> You shouldn't embrace this madness just because some GOP leaders are
> pushing it for short term wealth of a few friends.
Please don't misunderstand me, I think the time for the current
strategy has come and gone. It should have ended 4 years ago.
I don't believe it is productive to pursue the same course and
expect a different result. I keep listening for any talk from these
people on how this benefits the US. It is very hard to find anyone
that mentions any benefit. The only thing I have heard is "cheap
imports" and we know the fallacy with that point. The only other
thing is I read Susan Schwab say that "financial service exports
were rising" but I believe the value of those exports to china
were well under 10 billion and not something that can be value
added to the US or help america on a whole. I think some
form of limitation or parity on imports should have been
started a long time ago.
But I do believe that the reason why such an approach isn't
pursued by Bush and his cabinet is that while it may help
americans there will be some very rich people that stand
to lose. They know China has them by the balls and
they really don't have any leverage to use against China
that will spare the Bush supporters. China isn't listening
to them and China is getting even more leverage. In
a way it is funny but it is also sad.
Richard Eich
> what Cheney and Reagan taught us.
In the Hamiltonian tradition: The individual's share of the republic
is weighted by their net worth.
Richard Eich
> direct costs. They shed blood and sacrifice countless people. With the
> demise of the Soviet Union many think China is our adversary that most
> poses a risk of serious conflict and potential for war.
Jack Welch was on MSNBC's "Hardball" this evening, touting 9 million
jobs created under Bush, the smallest deficit in the industrialized
world (as a percentage of GDP), and the offshoring of manufacturing
jobs. American jobs lost to offshoring will be made up by Americans
building jet aircraft and that sort of thing, he said.
He said America could "easily afford" the war in Iraq, although he
cited a much lower $200 billion total spend.
(Speaking of his "Americans can build jet aircraft" comment: I had
no idea there was that much demand for jet aircraft. Must be heady
days indeed for the defense industry if they plan on employing that
many people.)
Welch ignored aggregate debt (now nearly $10,000,000,000,000) as a
percentage of GDP, the failure of job growth to keep pace even with
population growth, and got off on some odd-sounding tangent about how
it's the responsibility of companies not to insure employment, but
"employability" and how both government and companies are responsible
for training displaced workers.
The supporting logic for these statements wasn't provided.
Vid...@tcq.net
> retrogro...@comcast.net wrote...
considering he is a thief that stole thousands, if not hundreds of
thousands of workers retirements, it sounds like he is still on his
game.
ideologues never admit to reality.
Harold Burton
retro...@comcast.net wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 20:33:23 -0700, Vid...@tcq.net wrote:
>
> As long as their friends are getting rich, fuck the country. That's
> what the Clintons taught us.
There, fixed yer post for ya.
Vid...@tcq.net
> retrogro...@comcast.net wrote...
that is why he never made it to the presidency, thank god. he had it
right on manufacturing and trade, but wrong on many other things
Richard Eich
Frank F. Matthews
Harold Burton lied:
>>what Shrub & his masters taught us.
captain.
and get your house in order first.
"Scotius (Ponti Fickatur)" <wolv...@mnsi.net> wrote in message
news:njpkg3l1viia7iogc...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 12:02:03 -0400, www.freedomtofascism.com
> <tr...@r.us> wrote:
>
>>http://english.pravda.ru/business/finance/10-09-2007/96909-us_economy-0
>>
>>China may lead US economy to collapse dumping US dollar
>>
>>The U.S. dollar is standing at the edge of a cliff, and most people
>>don't even know it.
>>
>>Data released by the New York Federal Reserve shows that foreign
>>central banks have been net sellers of U.S. treasuries over the past
>>five weeks, with $48 billion having been sold since late July, and $32
>>billion in just the last two weeks.
>>
>>The U.S. runs budget deficits each year. If foreigners stop buying
>>treasuries-or worse, start selling them-the dollar could be in big
>>trouble.
>>
>>The reduction in treasuries "comes as a big surprise and it is
>>definitely worrying," said Hans Redeker, foreign exchange strategy
>>chief at bnp Paribas, one of Europe's biggest banks.
>>
>>The Telegraph reported that, according to Redeker, the numbers
>>demonstrate "that world central banks are in a hurry to get out of the
>>U.S."
>>
>>The nation that analysts are watching especially closely at this stage
>>is China. Whether or not Beijing is selling its dollars can't be
>>officially confirmed until November, when the Treasury releases its
>>tic data. However, top Beijing officials have been signaling for at
>>least two years that dollar sales are increasingly imminent.
>>
>>This past August, two Chinese government officials highlighted China's
>>massive U.S. dollar holdings (which include treasuries) and how it
>>supports the value of the U.S. currency. They also noted that Beijing
>>could use those holdings as a political weapon to counter
>>congressional calls to revalue the yuan and impose trade sanctions on
>>Chinese goods. Chinese state media referred to the country's stockpile
>>of U.S. dollars as its economic "nuclear option," capable of
>>destroying the dollar at will.
>>
>>Beijing also clearly signaled that it would begin "diversifying" out
>>of the dollar earlier this year when it announced plans to rebalance
>>its $1.34 trillion currency reserves, which are mostly U.S. bonds.
>>Already Beijing has created a $300 billion investment fund to use
>>those dollars to purchase other assets in an attempt to increase its
>>investment returns.
>>
>>It should come as no shock, then, that China would now be selling its
>>dollar holdings.
>>
>>The danger, as the Telegraph notes, relates to the fact that China
>>holds such a large amount of treasuries. Any confirmed evidence that
>>China was no longer supporting the dollar, and was actually selling
>>it, risks setting off "an unstoppable stampede" in which other nations
>>would seek to dump their holdings before China swamps the market and
>>demand for dollars is overwhelmed.
>>
>>The implications of a run on the dollar due to Chinese treasury-
>>dumping go far beyond just the value of the greenback.
>>
>>More!
Clave
news:reqog39ofa84hbamj...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 20:40:19 -0400, Harold Burton
> <hal.i....@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> As long as their friends are getting rich, fuck the country. That's
>>> what the Clintons taught us.
>>
>>
>>There, fixed yer post for ya.
>
>
> record low unemployment and did good things for the economy and the
> country. Bush undid all that for the benefit of the top 1%.
>
> Reality was never your strong suit Harold.
Call him Dink. He likes that.
Jim
Robert Miller
<Vid...@tcq.net> wrote in message
news:1191900803.0...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
amount keeps going down it will lose the place it's held for many years as
a safe place to store liquid assets. With nothing of value backing the FRN.
If it ever goes into freefall it will make the German Deutch Mark debacle
of the late 1920's look tame by comparision.
Robert Miller
<retro...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:reqog39ofa84hbamj...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 20:40:19 -0400, Harold Burton
> <hal.i....@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> what the Clintons taught us.
>>
>>
>>There, fixed yer post for ya.
>
>
> record low unemployment and did good things for the economy and the
> country. Bush undid all that for the benefit of the top 1%.
>
> Reality was never your strong suit Harold.
And it took a Republican Congress to pass it :-)
Vid...@tcq.net
> <Vide...@tcq.net> wrote in message
yes, that is the worry. how many dollars are floating around the
world. will we see third worlders holding tons of worthless paper?
that would be a economic blowout the world has never seen before.
conservatism is theft, it is poison to a middle class and democracy.
Vid...@tcq.net
> On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 09:04:46 -0400, "Robert Miller"
>
>
>
> <starga...@windstream.net> wrote:
>
> ><retrogro...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> budget slashed deficit spending on Greenspan's recommendation. The
> GOP Congress gave us the record port highway bill, and run away
> earmark records.
>
> The real proof of the pudding though is what happened when the GOP got
> control of both houses and the executive. Without Democratic restraint
> they set record deficits and spending.
>
> Some day you might actually look at the record and facts. Till then
> you'll keep lying and blowing smoke with baseless one liners. Sigh.
> An emblematic case of why 30% of the country is still stupid enough to
> support Bush.
they also did the same thing in the 1920's. it shows how worthless
the corporate media is, even how worthless the democrats have become
as a opposition party. no one speaks up on the cons records of the
last 100 plus years. going back to the throwing out of teddy r.
because he was roping in the robber barons.
Molesworth
maxw...@my-deja.com wrote:
Then why doesn't the US buy yuan on the world market? They'd make a
killing when either the dollar goes tits up, or the yuan is revalued
higher!
Or is George Soros doing this already?
--
Molesworth
Clave
news:1c681$470ccded$4b59029f$19...@ALLTEL.NET...
Only after losing the "shut down the government" battle.
Badly.
Jim
captain.
<retro...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:reqog39ofa84hbamj...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 20:40:19 -0400, Harold Burton
> <hal.i....@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> what the Clintons taught us.
>>
>>
>>There, fixed yer post for ya.
>
>
> record low unemployment and did good things for the economy and the
> country. Bush undid all that for the benefit of the top 1%.
>
> Reality was never your strong suit Harold.
clinton was just lucky that he was there during good times. the american
public feels nostalgic for someone who didn't fuck things up too badly.
captain.
<retro...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:jlqog3p4v7u05a9hr...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 05:11:05 GMT, "captain." <spammer...@now.net>
> wrote:
>
>>quit worrying about china so much
>>and get your house in order first.
>
>
> increased spending.
you're blaming the loan shark instead of the reckless borrower.
Frank F. Matthews
I will admit that there is some justification that he was lucky to have
been followed by a severe enough disaster to make anyone look good.
However, he did have the sense to get quality advisers and then pay
attention to them. What few decent advisers shrub managed to attract he
promptly ignored.
Robert Miller
<retro...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:64npg3lqu4t0e82or...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 09:04:46 -0400, "Robert Miller"
> budget slashed deficit spending on Greenspan's recommendation. The
> GOP Congress gave us the record port highway bill, and run away
> earmark records.
>
> The real proof of the pudding though is what happened when the GOP got
> control of both houses and the executive. Without Democratic restraint
> they set record deficits and spending.
>
> Some day you might actually look at the record and facts. Till then
> you'll keep lying and blowing smoke with baseless one liners. Sigh.
> An emblematic case of why 30% of the country is still stupid enough to
> support Bush.
votes or praise. And am proud to vote in any contest I think my vote will
matter. As in the next election. However I will not vote for either of the
media sweethearts.
There are enough real Republicans or Democrats to count on 1 hand with
fingers to spare.
Robert Miller
<Vid...@tcq.net> wrote in message
news:1192028722.5...@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
of gold on the planet.
There are many types of conservatism and liberalism the simple minded or
simply dishonest conflate all conservatism or liberalism into one label and
as a result never understand either of them.
So if someone describes themselves as a real Constitutional conservative,
and
fiscal conservative most people don't have a clue what they mean. Throw
in Social Libertarian they become really confused. All they hear is
Conservative
Liberal? Then they cry most EVIL PERSON!!!
Vid...@tcq.net
except i hear that i am a real conservative, he is not crap all of
the time. i wonder how all of those fake conservatives got into power
all thru the 1920's, that resulted in that time the largest corruption
scandal to have hit america. then they drove us into depression.? or
again as they trashed the dollar and got us driven off of the gold
standard in the early 1970's resulting in massive inflation, or how we
went from a creditor nation, to a debtor nation in the 1980's, do you
know any real conservatives who may have voted for any of these
cretins? i do, yet they claim this is not conservatism.
are these real conservatives so gullible that they keep getting
fooled, perhaps? but if that is the case, perhaps this is the real
face of conservatism.
conservatism is simply theft, it is a poison to democracy, and a
middle class.
Frank F. Matthews
>>>>>Snicker.
You are making an unreasonable assumption that the price of gold would
remain fixed.
captain.
what if al gore entered? would you vote for him?
The Trucker
news:J4mdncP2U_XQGZDa...@cablespeedwa.com...
The official numbers do not lie.
http://www.greatervoice.org/econ/data/OnBudget.html
The yearly deficits peaked in `1992 and started down. This was primarily due
to the tax increase on 1990 that was forced on Pappy Bush be a Democratic
Congress, and cuts in the military budget in 1992. The increase in tax revenue
played a much larger role than did spending cuts in social programs. Looking
at the unemployment numbers we see the main reason for the improved
revenues:
http://www.greatervoice.org/econ/data/unemployment.jpg
The economy simply did a lot better when the Reagan gutted tax code was
repaired by the Democrats in 1990 and made more progressive by the
Democrats in 1993. The slopes of the spending and the revenue tell the
true story. The slopes on the revenue had NOTHING to do with the
Newt Gingrich Republicans whatsoever. The increasing amount of interest
paid on the Republican debt more than overshadowed the paltry savings
of Gingrich welfare cuts. The major savings in welfare was due to the
fact that people had jobs. The unemployment statistics do not lie any
more than the revenue statistics and the military spending cuts.
--
"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers
of society but the people themselves; and
if we think them not enlightened enough to
exercise their control with a wholesome
discretion, the remedy is not to take it from
them, but to inform their discretion by
education." - Thomas Jefferson
http://GreaterVoice.org
Robert Miller
<Vid...@tcq.net> wrote in message
news:1192199146.2...@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
politicians! I don't see a bucket of warm spit worth of difference between
them. If they don't hold themselves and the nation the standard of the
"Rule
of Law" They can be bought by men willing to buy them.
Robert Miller
"Frank F. Matthews" <matth...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:470f9a09$0$24309$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
It's the same unreasonable assumption to think the value of silver and the
dollar
would not rise if Silver again backed the dollar. If a dollar was again as
it is
defined by law.
DOLLAR, money. A silver coin of the United States of the value of one
hundred cents, or tenth part of an eagle.
2. It weighs four hundred and twelve and a half grains. Of one thousand
parts, nine hundred are of pure silver and one hundred of alloy. Act of
January 18, 1837, ss. 8 & 9, 4 Sharsw. Cont. of Story's L. U. S. 2523, 4;
Wright, R. 162.
3. In all computations at the custom-house, the specie dollar of Sweden
and Norway shall be estimated at one hundred and six cents. The specie
dollar of Denmark, at one hundred and five cents. Act of May 22, 1846.
372.25 grains of pure silver
480 grains = 1 troy oz.
480 / 372.25 = .7755
1 Silver $ .7755 oz pure silver
Sept 20 Monex.com Silver @ $13.36 per ounce Spot.
.7755 oz. = $10.36
Robert Miller
<retro...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:lr4vg3trsi94v8jmk...@4ax.com...
> though it's just as arbitrary as the current one, with the added
> problem that it inflates the value of gold for no sound reason and
> makes it's productive use inordinately expensive. And all that just
> because it's shiny and rare. Why not pick sea shells instead?
>
I'm just showing the paper falacy! is sitting on dangerous territory. Faith
in the dollar is the only thing keeping it afloat. If someone seriously
starts
to dump dollars, others will also Centrial Banks trying to maintain their
nations
wealth would begin to unloads either for political or economic reasons.
Robert Miller
<retro...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:v3mah31ik6bcpc27g...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:58:47 -0400, "Robert Miller"
> <star...@windstream.net> wrote:
>
>>>>of gold on the planet.
>>>
>>> And you desperately need to believe that's an important relationship,
>>> though it's just as arbitrary as the current one, with the added
>>> problem that it inflates the value of gold for no sound reason and
>>> makes it's productive use inordinately expensive. And all that just
>>> because it's shiny and rare. Why not pick sea shells instead?
>>>
>>I'm just showing the paper falacy! is sitting on dangerous territory.
>>Faith
>
> difference, merely a different faith. For arbitrary measures of wealth
> paper has values over gold, it's light and transportable.
>
> Gold is liked only because primitive men liked it's shine.
>
Gold is better than paper, and Silver is much better than gold. A "Dollar"
is defined by law let the price of gold float but keep the dollar as a
weight
& measure tied to 372.25 grains of pure silver.
Of coarse the banker class hates this idea because it limits how much
money they can print, I expect you support this concept if only out of
ignorance.
Robert Miller
<retro...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:iq9dh31b0lr5881vb...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 19:44:24 -0400, "Robert Miller"
> let's make it the faith based item.
>
Your fallacy is you don't understand what causes inflation
> Query - how many years of depression were there from 1787 to the
> elimination of the gold standard? How many since? Look at length,
> severity, and depth of recession pre and post the elimination. LEARN
> something from history - just once.
>
Or the difference of having something of real value as the basis of your
money
supply. Do you know the inflation rate from 1800 to 1913 and to the
present?
I've made it a long time hobby to study the history of economics, and to
understand why and how silver has been used as a most successful weapon of
war against the U.S. and all other nations. If you don't understand
something it's
easy to fall prey for your type of ignorance, or is it mis-information?
Frank F. Matthews
Consider a Germanium standard instead.
Robert Miller
news:d7pdh3lv2n09puaob...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 22:16:19 -0400, "Robert Miller"
> <star...@windstream.net> wrote:
>
>>> LOL. You're really in no place to talk about ignorance. Gold is shiny,
>>> let's make it the faith based item.
>>>
>>Your fallacy is you don't understand what causes inflation
>
> Go away and stop embarrassing yourself.
>
> Read up on the impact of the new world gold on Spain.
Do you understand what I'm saying? When did I ever say "Gold
Standard"? Silver is much more stable in the long run and it is
what a dollar is made of. Not gold.
Robert Miller
<retro...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:4apdh31jr58ockrlg...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 22:16:19 -0400, "Robert Miller"
> <star...@windstream.net> wrote:
>
>>> Query - how many years of depression were there from 1787 to the
>>> elimination of the gold standard? How many since? Look at length,
>>> severity, and depth of recession pre and post the elimination. LEARN
>>> something from history - just once.
>
>
>>Or the difference of having something of real value as the basis of your
>>money
>>supply.
>
> arbitrary use by speculators. It's real value in things like
> electronics is hindered by your crow like attraction to shiny objects.
>
>>Do you know the inflation rate from 1800 to 1913 and to the
>>present?
>
> more stable since the demise of the arbitrary gold standard.
> Depressions are rarer, at greater intervals and far less severe. You
> babble tin foil hat nonsense and beg a return to a bygone era of
> greater peril and instability.
>
Duh!!! Fewer runs on banks because they can simply print the money
and keep it in a nearby warehouse.. Er bank vault.
> But hey why not? I mean the whole libertarian schtick is one fantasy
> pipe dream removed from reality. It's mental masturbation. It feels
> good but accomplishes nothing but getting you hot and bothered. The
> fact that it's never worked anywhere in the world doesn't phase you.
> Why not add other silly pillars to the structure like a gold?
>
Stuck in the Gold rut are we? Not enough gold in the world to make a
stable store of value. Nor enough industrial uses to keep demand for it
high.
On the other hand there are many industrial and chemical uses for silver
with more uses coming online all the time. So there is always a demand
that gets used up. There is also much more silver above ground and
underground that can be accessed when needed or when the price/demand
rises.
>>I've made it a long time hobby to study the history of economics, and to
>>understand why and how silver has been used as a most successful weapon of
>>war against the U.S. and all other nations. If you don't understand
>>something it's
>>easy to fall prey for your type of ignorance, or is it mis-information?
>
> So in one breath you want a reversion to precious metals and in the
> next you note how totally insecure they are. (DO the Hunt Bros. ring a
> bell BTW?) Your thoughts are so jumbled you're not even aware you
> contradict yourself in every other post. Sheesh. I'm sorry I should be
> kinder. But pride in such foolishness is too much.
>
The Hunt Bros. never imagined how many silver mines they would open
around the world. The free market worked as it should. Silver spiked
because of investor speculation, then fell to about where it belonged.
Even a gold currency is better than a paper fiat currency. Currencies are
only unstable when governments commit fraud on the people by debasing
their currency. The U.S. Treasury has been minting short weight Silver
Dollars since shortly after the War between the States. With the New
Mexico silver strike the price of silver started to fall. Rather than
increase
the size of the Silver dollar to keep it's purchasing power. They U.S.
Treasury kept the silver dollar the same and pocked the difference.
By 1927 with Europe and Japan also minting short weight silver coinage
there was not enough silver above ground on the planet even if seized to
re-mint an honest silver coinage. This in large part is what caused the
banking collapse in the late 1920's. But I'm sure you're not interested in
how or why.
Robert Miller
than fancy gardening the speculation Tulip came to an end when the bubble
burst.
Robert Miller
<retro...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:41nfh3lr1qoc9jn65...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:36:27 -0400, "Robert Miller"
> <star...@windstream.net> wrote:
>
>><retro...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>news:d7pdh3lv2n09puaob...@4ax.com...
>>> On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 22:16:19 -0400, "Robert Miller"
>>> <star...@windstream.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> LOL. You're really in no place to talk about ignorance. Gold is shiny,
>>>>> let's make it the faith based item.
>>>>>
>>>>Your fallacy is you don't understand what causes inflation
>>>
>>> LOL. You don't think there's inflation under a gold standard? Please.
>>> Go away and stop embarrassing yourself.
>>>
>>> Read up on the impact of the new world gold on Spain.
>>
>>Do you understand what I'm saying? When did I ever say "Gold
>>Standard"? Silver is much more stable in the long run and it is
>>what a dollar is made of. Not gold.
>
>
> Hunt Brothers more poignant.
The Hunt brothers failed to realize how much silver was available, and
got into trouble trying to corner the market. The market spiked because
of what the Hunt Bros. and other speculators were willing to pay.
It was a short term problem before the price of silver went back to about
where it should have been all along. In other words the free market
worked properly.
But I suspect you don't trust the free market and would rather have a
government controlled market.
Robert Miller
<retro...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:d6nfh398toqo8bff8...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:55:27 -0400, "Robert Miller"
> <star...@windstream.net> wrote:
>
>>> But hey why not? I mean the whole libertarian schtick is one fantasy
>>> pipe dream removed from reality. It's mental masturbation. It feels
>>> good but accomplishes nothing but getting you hot and bothered. The
>>> fact that it's never worked anywhere in the world doesn't phase you.
>>> Why not add other silly pillars to the structure like a gold?
>>>
>>Stuck in the Gold rut are we? Not enough gold in the world to make a
>>stable store of value. Nor enough industrial uses to keep demand for it
>>high.
>>
>>On the other hand there are many industrial and chemical uses for silver
>>with more uses coming online all the time. So there is always a demand
>>that gets used up. There is also much more silver above ground and
>>underground that can be accessed when needed or when the price/demand
>>rises.
>
>
> inflate it's value beyond it's market value and its real uses suffer.
> Speculation is killing valuable uses. And all because people want to
> place a higher value on it because of it's history as a favored shiny
> thing.
Silver is a store of value precisely because it has value to do many
important
chemical and industrial processes. And over the long term has been much
more stable than the paper fiat dollar.
Robert Miller
<retro...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:canfh35pnama7m41u...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:55:27 -0400, "Robert Miller"
> <star...@windstream.net> wrote:
>
>>The Hunt Bros. never imagined how many silver mines they would open
>>around the world. The free market worked as it should. Silver spiked
>>because of investor speculation, then fell to about where it belonged.
>
> and the fed, your two major bogeymen, actually saved the day.
When the price of Silver hit $50 an ounce Russia and China dumped a shit
load of silver on the market. Can you tell me on what day and hour the Feds
stepped with their indictments? If you check, I'll bet you'll find that it
was
after the price of silver peaked. I had a long discussion with a Jeweler
friend
who was very knowledgeable on the Hunt Bros. and had a large stockpile of
silver from those days.
As the purchasing power of the fiat currency falls in the U.S. the price
of silver rises. Even today the price of gasoline is still about the same
in
silver as it was in the 1930's compared to the price of silver.
Robert Miller
<retro...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:89d5i3dv3jk9ggblm...@4ax.com...
> regulation. It's more meaningless freeper rhetoric that means nothing
> and is meant for idiots.
>
> The Hunts went to jail.
You can't fool the market, for long. Regulating the market benefits some
but not others. What of the manipulation of the silver market since the
1860's by the government issuing short weight silver coins when the
price of silver was falling due to the New Mexico silver strikes?
That policy eventually led to the crash of '29. To understand how
you'd have to understand the difference between honest and dishonest
silver money.
Robert Miller
<retro...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:rgd5i3p8p5dmfcpas...@4ax.com...
> moronic conspiracy nut. Silver's value, like golds is tied to
> speculation not industrial uses. Valuable Industrial and chemical uses
> are precluded by the prices speculation engenders.
If the demand for silver goes up so does the price, when the demand for
silver goes down so does the price.
Demand for silver is based on industrial and decorative uses, photography
and jewelry & silverware.
Silver Demand Worldwide
Industrial 367.1 Moz
Jewelry & Silverware 247.5 Moz
Photography 181 Moz
Coins and Medals 41.1 Moz
As you can see here the speculative aspect of silver is the least factor,
and
more silver is used for industry purposes than any other. In millions of
ounces. Not because it is pretty.
Clave
news:e2123$4722dad6$471cba0e$44...@ALLTEL.NET...
>
> <retro...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:89d5i3dv3jk9ggblm...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 23:09:02 -0400, "Robert Miller"
>> <star...@windstream.net> wrote:
>>
>>>But I suspect you don't trust the free market and would rather have a
>>>government controlled market.
>>
>>
>> There's no such thing as a free market only varying degrees of
>> regulation. It's more meaningless freeper rhetoric that means nothing
>> and is meant for idiots.
>>
>> The Hunts went to jail.
>
> You can't fool the market, for long. Regulating the market benefits some
> but not others.
I'm curious as to what your definition of "long" is.
Jim
Clave
news:ton5i3hfvuk9lgjsn...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 02:38:47 -0400, "Robert Miller"
> <star...@windstream.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>If the demand for silver goes up so does the price, when the demand for
>>silver goes down so does the price.
>>
>>Demand for silver is based on industrial and decorative uses, photography
>>and jewelry & silverware.
>
> lots of people are seeking to hedge in silver and gold. Why do you
> pretend to be ignorant of that?
Where do you come up with these guys?
Jim
Mani Deli
>On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 23:12:40 -0400, "Robert Miller"
><star...@windstream.net> wrote:
>When you say crap like "fiat currency" you only identify yourself as a
>moronic conspiracy nut. Silver's value, like golds is tied to
>speculation not industrial uses.
The dollar is also tied to speculation and as it comes closer to
becoming an I.O.U. people will feel it necessary to invest in gold
silver and solid assets, call it what you will.
Robert Miller
"Clave" <ClaviusNo...@cablespeed.com> wrote in message
news:fr-dnQX--4xXeb_a...@cablespeedwa.com...
That would depend on how much regulation is used. The Federal Reserve
Notes were created in 1913 backed by less and less. By 1933 it was not
backed by gold because there wasn't enough gold to back the nations
currency.
In 1967 we didn't have enough silver to back our currency either. Now
that original silver dollar has about $13 worth of silver in it. Is the
silver or gold
worth any more than it was? No. In real terms the silver is likely worth
about
half what it was 100 years ago.
The Fed might have played a small role in the price of silver falling, but
it would
have happened very quickly on it's own after Russia, China, and India
started
dumping silver into the markets. All 3 nations are rich in silver deposits
in vaults
and in the ground.
It's called the law of supply and demand. The greater the supply the less
the
demand. With a market flooded with silver the price naturally falls. It
happened
in the late 1920's shortly before the bank collapse. For different reasons.
Robert Miller
<retro...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ton5i3hfvuk9lgjsn...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 02:38:47 -0400, "Robert Miller"
> <star...@windstream.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>If the demand for silver goes up so does the price, when the demand for
>>silver goes down so does the price.
>>
>>Demand for silver is based on industrial and decorative uses, photography
>>and jewelry & silverware.
>
> lots of people are seeking to hedge in silver and gold. Why do you
> pretend to be ignorant of that?
People hedge in silver, gold, land, or anything of real or increasing value.
With a money supply backed by silver or gold. It is backed by the labor
that produced that silver or gold. On a very fundamental level the minor
is trading his labor to produce that gold or silver with a farmer's labor or
the factory workers labor.
If gold and silver had no cost in production there would be little if any
value in them. With inflation the cost of labor goes up, and deflation the
cost of labor goes down.
Another economic law is that the more money you have floating in an
economy the less the money is worth. The more Federal Reserve Notes
printed the less they become worth.
How is the United States paying for the War in Iraq? Have taxes risen to
cover the costs of the war? or is the Treasury running the printing presses
on overtime?
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> <retro...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:rgd5i3p8p5dmfcpas...@4ax.com...
............. snip levels .................
>>
>> When you say crap like "fiat currency" you only identify yourself as a
>> moronic conspiracy nut. Silver's value, like golds is tied to
>> speculation not industrial uses. Valuable Industrial and chemical uses
>> are precluded by the prices speculation engenders.
>
> If the demand for silver goes up so does the price, when the demand for
> silver goes down so does the price.
>
> Demand for silver is based on industrial and decorative uses,
> photography and jewelry & silverware.
>
> Silver Demand Worldwide
When? and quoted from what source ?
>
> Industrial 367.1 Moz
> Jewelry & Silverware 247.5 Moz
> Photography 181. Moz
> Coins and Medals 41.1 Moz
>
> As you can see here the speculative aspect of silver
> is the least factor,
How so? The above doesn't mention speculative aspect at all.
> and more silver is used for industry purposes than any other.
> In millions of ounces. Not because it is pretty.
>
Given the categories and figures above, since photography requirements
are ~50% as large, still, as the industrial estimate, and the photographic
sectors' switch to organic (color) basis during the last 15 or so years,
and now further to digital (in cameras), the photographic requirements
must be falling. This means, to me, that there should be a downward
pressure on the price of silver.
Is that the case?
If not then what would be the explanation?
--
Rostyk
Robert Miller
<retro...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:2e37i3hrbpdui6nif...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 13:13:20 -0400, "Robert Miller"
> <star...@windstream.net> wrote:
>
>>With a money supply backed by silver or gold. It is backed by the labor
>>that produced that silver or gold. On a very fundamental level the minor
>>is trading his labor to produce that gold or silver with a farmer's labor
>>or
>>the factory workers labor.
>
>
> The labor is only deemed worth doing when the price regards the
> production. You've got some real cart-horse issues going there.
Some would see you view and remark how similar it is to the Socialist /
Communist view. I would say it simply is the socialist / communist view.
Let the government create all the money and all the goods money is to
buy. Let the government set the value of the goods and the money to make
a happy and stable society.
Robert Miller
<retro...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:6i37i39okk6qtjau5...@4ax.com...
> commitment is real. You're creating (or letting some moron present
> you) with a parallel universe in bizarro land to preserve some bizarre
> notions on why you can hate government, other people and justify your
> petty greed. It's quite a house of cards you've built.
So when does the debt get paid back? where does the money come from
to pay back the debt? With debt and obligations the Congress has created
a debt of 97 trillion dollars divide that by 240,000,000 Americans is over
$400,000 per person in the United States. Then add the personal mortgage
and credit card debt of the American people, and don't forget the corporate
debt of American corporations for a total of over 110 trillion dollars of
American debt.
Robert Miller
"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urj...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:ZpLUi.50475$c9.3...@bignews8.bellsouth.net...
> Robert Miller wrote:
>> <retro...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:rgd5i3p8p5dmfcpas...@4ax.com...
>
> ............. snip levels .................
>
>>>
>>> When you say crap like "fiat currency" you only identify yourself as a
>>> moronic conspiracy nut. Silver's value, like golds is tied to
>>> speculation not industrial uses. Valuable Industrial and chemical uses
>>> are precluded by the prices speculation engenders.
>>
>> If the demand for silver goes up so does the price, when the demand for
>> silver goes down so does the price.
>>
>> Demand for silver is based on industrial and decorative uses, photography
>> and jewelry & silverware.
>>
>> Silver Demand Worldwide
>
> When? and quoted from what source ?
http://www.silverusersassociation.org/silver/demand.shtml
>
>>
>> Industrial 367.1 Moz
>> Jewelry & Silverware 247.5 Moz
>> Photography 181. Moz
>> Coins and Medals 41.1 Moz
>>
>> As you can see here the speculative aspect of silver is the least
>> factor,
>
> How so? The above doesn't mention speculative aspect at all.
Coins and Medals 41.1 Moz
I don't think Photography is speculative, and Industry will pay
what ever the cost for the silver they need and pass the cost on
to the consumer.
Speculators will buy Coins and bullion. Not Jewlry or Silverware
because the markup is better than 300%
>
>> and more silver is used for industry purposes than any other. In
>> millions of ounces. Not because it is pretty.
>>
> Given the categories and figures above, since photography requirements
> are ~50% as large, still, as the industrial estimate, and the photographic
> sectors' switch to organic (color) basis during the last 15 or so years,
> and now further to digital (in cameras), the photographic requirements
> must be falling. This means, to me, that there should be a downward
> pressure on the price of silver.
> Is that the case?
> If not then what would be the explanation?
Don't merely speculate, Educate!
Silver Institute Supply and Demand 2006.
http://www.silverinstitute.org/supply/index.php
> --
> Rostyk
Silver is one of the most important elements in industrial processes
today. The demand for silver is not falling but increasing. Below is a
small sample of other uses for silver
http://www.silverinstitute.org/uses.php
Batteries
Many batteries, both rechargeable and disposable, are manufactured
with silver alloys as the cathode. Although expensive, silver cells have
superior power-to-weight characteristics than their competitors. The
most common of these batteries is the small button shaped silver oxide
cell (approximately 35% silver by weight).
Bearings
Steel bearings electroplated with high purity silver have greater fatigue
strength and load carrying capacity than any other type and are hence
used in various hi-tech and heavy-duty applications.
Brazing and Soldering
Silver facilitates the joining of materials (called brazing when done at
temperatures above 600oCelsius and soldering when below) and
produces naturally smooth, leak-tight and corrosion-resistant joints.
Silver brazing alloys are used widely in applications ranging from
air-conditioning and refrigeration equipment to power distribution
equipment in the electrical engineering sector. It is also used in the
automobile and aerospace industries.
Catalysts
One of the great discoveries of chemistry was that the efficiency of
chemical reactions can be significantly increased in the presence of
other elements or compounds that do not enter into the reaction. A
hundred years ago it was discovered that silver was one of those
elements. Ever since, silver has been essential to the production of
chemicals for the US $300 billion plastics industry.
Silver is the only catalyst that will oxidize ethylene gas into ethylene
oxide whose worldwide production exceeds 14-million tons per year.
It is the building block for polyester textiles used to make all types of
clothing and a great variety of specialty fabrics,
Coins
Silver, being a rare and noble metal, was a more desirable medium of
exchange than beads, feathers, shells, and the like. Its use as a medium
of exchange is known throughout all recorded history. Coins, in the
sense of having an authenticating stamp on them, began to appear in the
eastern Mediterranean during 550 B.C. By 269 B.C. Rome adopted
silver as part of its standard coinage. Silver became the trading medium
for merchants throughout the civilized world. (Gold being reserved for
governments and the wealthy.)
Electrical
Silver is the best electrical conductor of all metals and is hence used in
many electrical applications, particularly in conductors, switches, contacts
and fuses. Contacts, a junction between two conductors that can be
separated and through which a current can flow, account for the largest
proportion of electrical demand.
When Samuel F. B. Morse tapped out, "What hath God wrought," on
May 24, 1844, the contact points on his telegraph were silver. The high
amperage required to push the signal over iron wires from Baltimore to
Washington, D.C., demanded a high capacity, non-corroding make/
break contact; only silver could do the job.
Electronics
In electronics, silver is also widely used. Uses include silk-screened
circuit
paths, membrane switches, electrically heated automobile windows, and
conductive adhesives.
Every time a home owner turns on a microwave oven, dishwasher, clothes
washer, or television set, the action activates a switch with silver
contacts
that completes the required electrical circuit.
Medical Applications
While silver's importance as a bactericide has been documented only since
the late 1800s, its use in purification has been known throughout the ages.
Early records indicate that the Phoenicians, for example, used silver
vessels
to keep water, wine and vinegar pure during their long voyages. In America,
pioneers moving west put silver and copper coins in their water barrels to
keep it clean.
Robert
Vid...@tcq.net
> <retrogro...@comcast.net> wrote in message
your type always goes back to red baiting, a true expose' of a
defense that has nothing.
Robert Miller
<Vid...@tcq.net> wrote in message
news:1193616988.8...@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
collective
mindset.
Vid...@tcq.net
> <Vide...@tcq.net> wrote in message
and that startling comment is coming from a collectivist hoarding of
silver. you are a collectivist, and you do not even know it.
Robert Miller
<Vid...@tcq.net> wrote in message
news:1193682133.5...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Personal responsibility, and Individual rights!
Boy I hope so.
What makes you think I'm hoarding silver? How many silver coins must
one have to be accused of hoarding?
Vid...@tcq.net
> given up defending his "point".
his type all end that way. i am surprised he has not attacked our
grammar.
Vid...@tcq.net
you are a silver nut, anyone can see that. you want us all to
collectively use silver as our basis for money, a true collectivist if
i ever saw one.