Jews running NATO?
Joe Stearns
THE NON-JEWS BEHIND KOSOVO by Barry Chamish ISRAELI JOURNALIST
<cha...@netvision.net.il>
The American team behind the Yugoslav War have Jewish names
and look very Jewish. This is a sad and humiliating fact...and
it shouldn't take the anti-semites long to make a few
associations and call the bloodletting in the Balkans a Jewish
plot. However, if a plot exists, it is being managed by the
very antithesis of Judaism, those who have abandoned Judaism
for good.
Let us look at the core of the VISIBLE team:
William Cohen- Secretary Of Defense- Longtime member of the
Council On Foreign Relations. Headed the notorious 1997 CFR
Task Force On The Middle East, which called for Israel's
withdrawal to 1948 lines and the division of Jerusalem, until
replaced later by Henry Seigman. Though he has a Jewish father,
Cohen was raised as Protestant and maintains no Jewish
religious ties whatsoever.
Mad Madeleine Albright- Secretary Of State- Longtime member
of the CFR. Her story is absolutely surreal. Born and raised
Jewish in Czechoslovakia, she escaped the Holocaust and was
cared for by Jewish relatives in London. Yet, over the years
she forgot her entire childhood and adolescence, claiming she's
always been a Christian. Her memory was jarred only when the
Washington Post printed her true biography during the very week
she was appointed Secretary of State. The woman did not simply
disavow her Jewish roots, for fifty years she pretended they
didn't exist. And for much of her term in office, she has been
obsessed with pressing Israel to withdraw to suicidal borders.
James Rubin- State Department Spokesman- Member of the CFR.
Recently married CNN Kosovo reporter Christiane Amanpour in a
church. Has adopted Christianity. While longtime CFR member Ted
Turner's CNN grinds out the New World Order vision through
Amanpour, Rubin coordinates the illusion as Alberight's
supercilious mouthpiece.
This trio is hiding behind the bloodshed they are fomenting
with a curtain woven of humanitarian goodness for the Kosovo
refugees. Never mind that the refugees would not have been
there to cover their deeds without the NATO bombing of
Yugoslavia. So far the facade is holding up but the curtain
will eventually fall and when it does, thanks to this
triumvirate of evil, Jews are going to be left holding the bag.
When that day comes, let all so inclined to see the Jewish
hand in NWO machinations recall that this war is in the hands
of people who found the deep morality of Judaism not to their
liking. They abandoned Judaism, and while Yugoslavia is their
current target for destruction, Israel is next on their list.
end
From: ra...@teaminfinity.com
FOR the RECORD:
Samuel Berger, and Richard Holbrooke, Rahm Emmanuel, all high
profile members for Clinton's Foreign Affairs Team, are also
"JEWISH"
arth...@my-dejanews.com
Jews are running NATO.
On the other hand, ask any Russian anti-semite, and you'll hear that they
are running Russia.
They are also running New York, Hollywood, Miami Beach.
Ask Aryan Nation skunks, and you'll learn that Jews are running the whole
world government.
When does this tiny minority get their time to work, to make money
and raise their children?
I am sure 'Jewish Plot Professionals' will come with satisfactory answers!
arthur_k
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
to...@my-dejanews.com
There are always people who like to blame Jews when something goes wrong. The
difference from Russia and US is that Russia does not have political
correctness, and anti-semites there are louder.
In article <7ghp9h$uqs$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
arth...@my-dejanews.com
to...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Toxa wrote:
>
> There are always people who like to blame Jews when something goes wrong. The
> difference from Russia and US is that Russia does not have political
> correctness, and anti-semites there are louder.
You prefer to call it political correctness, thus diminishing the true
uglinness of the ingrained Russian xenophobia and racism.
There's lots of differences between intermittant anti-semitism in the US and
prevailing one in Russia:
-- unlike in Russia, anti-semites constitute a tiny minority in our country.
-- USA does not have a history of a church-state, which is what Russia has
been through almost all of its history. One nation -- one faith (anybody of
a religion different from Russian orthodoxy have been called "nechestiviye",
pretty much like in Iran today). -- Russia has never had a civil society.
That's why that country provided a natural soil for communism to take such a
strong root -- collectivism of "obschina" mentality and hatered for
individualist thinking, for anything that's DIFFERENT. -- Historically
Russian mentality has always been a xenophobic one. Jews, with their easily
distinguishable traditional appearances were just the perfect target for the
GOVERNMENT SPONSORED anti-semitism. -- As Raymond Aron wrote: "Racism is the
snobbery of the poor". That's what the Russians were, are and most probably
will be (with their attitudes) in the forseeable future -- poor.
I bet you, there will be few responses coming, as if to illustrate my points.
Michael Kagalenko
: In article <7goe3i$hsp$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
: to...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
: > Toxa wrote:
: >
: > There are always people who like to blame Jews when something goes wrong. The
: > difference from Russia and US is that Russia does not have political
: > correctness, and anti-semites there are louder.
: You prefer to call it political correctness, thus diminishing the true
: uglinness of the ingrained Russian xenophobia and racism.
: There's lots of differences between intermittant anti-semitism in the US and
: prevailing one in Russia:
: -- unlike in Russia, anti-semites constitute a tiny minority in our country.
According to the Anti-Defamation League poll, 12% of Americans have
strong antisemitic views.
: -- USA does not have a history of a church-state, which is what Russia has
: been through almost all of its history.
However, many of USA allies do. Engalnd remains the church-state even today;
they have officially recognized religion, and ruthlessly suppress catholic
minority in Northern Ireland.
: One nation -- one faith (anybody of
: a religion different from Russian orthodoxy have been called "nechestiviye",
: pretty much like in Iran today). -- Russia has never had a civil society.
: That's why that country provided a natural soil for communism to take such a
: strong root -- collectivism of "obschina" mentality and hatered for
: individualist thinking, for anything that's DIFFERENT. -- Historically
: Russian mentality has always been a xenophobic one. Jews, with their easily
: distinguishable traditional appearances were just the perfect target for the
: GOVERNMENT SPONSORED anti-semitism. -- As Raymond Aron wrote: "Racism is the
: snobbery of the poor". That's what the Russians were, are and most probably
: will be (with their attitudes) in the forseeable future -- poor.
: I bet you, there will be few responses coming, as if to illustrate my points.
Your points are exhibit A for the existence of strong Russophobia in
America.
Olga
>
> In article <7goe3i$hsp$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> to...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > Toxa wrote:
> >
> > There are always people who like to blame Jews when something goes wrong. The
> > difference from Russia and US is that Russia does not have political
> > correctness, and anti-semites there are louder.
>
> You prefer to call it political correctness, thus diminishing the true
> uglinness of the ingrained Russian xenophobia and racism.
>
> There's lots of differences between intermittant anti-semitism in the US and
> prevailing one in Russia:
>
> -- unlike in Russia, anti-semites constitute a tiny minority in our country.
> a religion different from Russian orthodoxy have been called "nechestiviye",
> pretty much like in Iran today). -- Russia has never had a civil society.
> That's why that country provided a natural soil for communism to take such a
> strong root -- collectivism of "obschina" mentality and hatered for
> individualist thinking, for anything that's DIFFERENT. -- Historically
> Russian mentality has always been a xenophobic one. Jews, with their easily
> distinguishable traditional appearances were just the perfect target for the
> GOVERNMENT SPONSORED anti-semitism. -- As Raymond Aron wrote: "Racism is the
> snobbery of the poor". That's what the Russians were, are and most probably
> will be (with their attitudes) in the forseeable future -- poor.
>
> I bet you, there will be few responses coming, as if to illustrate my points.
>
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Good! One illustration: my manager, Orthodox Jew, was harassed by
skinheads
in NYC subway. Another illustration: Crown Heights NYC events.
I do not remember something bad happened to my Jewish friends back home,
except of one example when one of my friends did not receive the highest
score during entrance exams to the Politehcnical Institute. There were
no
visual reason to deny highest score except of this guy's last name.
Probably,
he bumped into some antisemit. If not because of him, Vova would be
accepted only after one exam, instead he had to pass additional three,
but he was accepted. You can find antisemits everywhere. So what?
Why you spread hate of Russians?
--
Olga
to...@my-dejanews.com
> > Toxa wrote:
> >
> > There are always people who like to blame Jews when something goes wrong.
The
> > difference from Russia and US is that Russia does not have political
> > correctness, and anti-semites there are louder.
>
> You prefer to call it political correctness, thus diminishing the true
> uglinness of the ingrained Russian xenophobia and racism.
How do I diminish it? How is it ingrained? The difference is: over there
those who dislike Jews tell that openly, here they don't.
> There's lots of differences between intermittant anti-semitism in the US and
> prevailing one in Russia:
How is it 'intermittant' in US and 'prevailing' in Russia?
You have data?
> -- unlike in Russia, anti-semites constitute a tiny minority in our country.
Again, you have data? Just a case in point: if Russia is 'prevailingly'
anti-semitic, why the leading presidential candidate rallies against the main
anti-semitic organization? If most people were anti-semitic since he wants
to be popular, he would probably be supporting them?
> -- USA does not have a history of a church-state, which is what Russia has
> been through almost all of its history. One nation -- one faith (anybody of
> a religion different from Russian orthodoxy have been called "nechestiviye",
> pretty much like in Iran today).
What else do you expect? Do you know that Muslim Turks were raiding as far
north as Moscow non-stop in Middle Ages, the Catholic Rech Pospolita (Poland)
was Russia's bitter foe in the West, almost taking it over in the XVII
century? All the countries that are engaged in wars with countries with
other faiths become religiously radicalized (see Lebanon, Palestine, Spain /
Portugal in middle ages, Greece, Serbia, India, etc.)
> -- Russia has never had a civil society.
What about cerca 1865-1915? It was not perfect of course... How exactly do
you define 'civil'?
> That's why that country provided a natural soil for communism to take such a
> strong root -- collectivism of "obschina" mentality
Collective co-operation was the only way to ensure sirvival in Russian
climate.
>and hatered for
> individualist thinking, for anything that's DIFFERENT.
that's debatable. Russia usually had absolute monarchy / dictatorship, so
that kind of an attitude was directed from the top.
>-- Historically
> Russian mentality has always been a xenophobic one.
Russians love foreign people. They are slightly paranoid about being invaded
and conquered, but that's conditioning over centuries of constant aggression.
> Jews, with their easily
> distinguishable traditional appearances were just the perfect target for the
> GOVERNMENT SPONSORED anti-semitism.
That's true, but you have correctly put emphasis on GOVERNMENT SPONSORED
> -- As Raymond Aron wrote: "Racism is the
> snobbery of the poor". That's what the Russians were, are and most probably
> will be (with their attitudes) in the forseeable future -- poor.
Anti-semitism is not based on poverty. It is based on a perception that the
Jews are better off (which is often the case due to various factors) than the
Russians.
> I bet you, there will be few responses coming, as if to illustrate my points.
>
> arthur_k
Anton Granovsky
arth...@my-dejanews.com
to...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Toxa wrote:
>
> > arthur_k wrote:
> >
> > You prefer to call it political correctness, thus diminishing the true
> > uglinness of the ingrained Russian xenophobia and racism.
>
> How do I diminish it? How is it ingrained? The difference is: over there
> those who dislike Jews tell that openly, here they don't.
The term Political Correctness (PC) has been used lately to satirize
ridiculous attempts to put institutionalized restrictions on free speach in
our country. If you think that PC is the main reason why US isn't openly
anti-semitic, you must still live in Russia, toxa (at least mentally). The
truth can be found quite easily, without any statistics: just read DejaNews
postings where Americans, not Russians exchange their ideas about racism and
anti-semitism, then compare 'em to the garbage that flows unanswered on this
and other Russian-dominated forums. How many Russians do you find objecting
to Anonymous' postings, huh?
> > There's lots of differences between intermittant anti-semitism in the US
> > and prevailing one in Russia:
>
> How is it 'intermittant' in US and 'prevailing' in Russia?
See above.
> Just a case in point: if Russia is 'prevailingly'
> anti-semitic why the leading presidential candidate rallies against the main
> anti-semitic organization? If most people were anti-semitic since he wants
> to be popular, he would probably be supporting them?
Can you give us a compelling explanation for the support Russian neo-nazis
like Makashov, Zhirinovsky and Co. have in Duma and among the mainstream
populus? Is that true that Communist fraction in Duma is virtually Juden-frie
?
> > -- USA does not have a history of a church-state, which is what Russia has
> > been through almost all of its history. One nation -- one faith (anybody of
> > a religion different from Russian orthodoxy have been called "nechestiviye",
> > pretty much like in Iran today).
>
> What else do you expect? Do you know that Muslim Turks were raiding as far
> north as Moscow non-stop in Middle Ages, the Catholic Rech Pospolita (Poland)
> was Russia's bitter foe in the West, almost taking it over in the XVII century?
Wow, Russians seem to be able to hold their grudge for as long as six
centuries! Do you find it normal? If Europe was as idiosincratic as Russia,
Spanish would still hate Brits, Brussels would distrust Spanish and there
would be rampant attempts to suppress protestants in France. BTW, aren't
Poles being bitter foes of Russia because of Imperial Russian attempts to
"re-unite" them with Moscow? Russia's never-stopping colonialism is the best
explanation why it had and has so few friendly neighbors.
> > -- Russia has never had a civil society.
>
> What about cerca 1865-1915? It was not perfect of course... How exactly do
> you define 'civil'?
It's good that you realize "it was not perfect of course". Well, it's mildly
put. Respect for the Law has never been and still isn't a part of Russian
life. Russian literature gives the best description of how far Russia had
always been (and still is) from the West:
U nas chuzhaya golova,
A ubezhden'ya serdtsa hrupki...
My -- evropeyskiye slova
I asiatskiye postupki.
> > That's why that country provided a natural soil for communism to take
> > such a strong root -- collectivism of "obschina" mentality
>
> Collective co-operation was the only way to ensure sirvival in Russian
> climate.
You must mean: Socio-political and Cultural climate,
because geographical climate didn't prevent, say, Scandinavian peoples from
creating normal societies, where the rights of individual were respected.
> >and hatered for individualist thinking, for anything that's DIFFERENT.
>
> that's debatable. Russia usually had absolute monarchy / dictatorship, so
> that kind of an attitude was directed from the top.
and happily hoorayed from below.
"My bud'em zhdat' spokoyno i uverenno slova Gosudarstvennoi Dumy"
-- Russkoye Slovo, January 1 1917
Sama sud'ba yemu dala
Dolgoterpeniye vola.
Yego stegayut chem popalo,
A on mychit, chto ochen' malo.
-- Ivan Stepanovich Loginov, January 1917
> >-- Historically Russian mentality has always been a xenophobic one.
>
> Russians love foreign people.
As Lady Astor joke goes, "The only thing I like about rich people
is their money."
> They are slightly paranoid about being invaded
> and conquered, but that's conditioning over centuries of constant aggression.
Aggression by Russia on virtually all of its neighbors?
> > Jews, with their easily distinguishable traditional appearances were just
> > the perfect target for the GOVERNMENT SPONSORED anti-semitism.
> That's true, but you have correctly put emphasis on GOVERNMENT SPONSORED
and happily hoorayed from below (and still is, just read what Russians are
writing on this thread! See "Anti-ZHID Grows in Russia", posted today)
Please ask yourself, why did you personally choose not to respond to the
original post, which started this thread and contained an ugly underlying
anti-semitic provocation? Instead, you became outraged enough with my
responses to start this argument...
That's what's so good about an open forum: it's awfully hard to mask your
real convictions -- it's there for everybody to see!
> > -- As Raymond Aron wrote: "Racism is the snobbery of the poor". That's what
> > the Russians were, are and most probably will be (with their attitudes) in
> > the forseeable future -- poor.
> Anti-semitism is not based on poverty. It is based on a perception that the
> Jews are better off (which is often the case due to various factors) than the
> Russians.
> Anton Granovsky
Yes, Anton, Russia has been demonstrating for quite a long while the worst
kind of class hatered combined with the racial hatered, powered by chronic
xenophobia and angst of people, who are poor both materially and morally.
Isn't that what you call VSESOYUZNIY KOMPLEKS ? Yeah, slightly paranoid...
Take care, comrade.
arthur_k
arth...@my-dejanews.com
mkag...@lynx.dac.neu.edu wrote:
> Engalnd remains the church-state even today;
> they have officially recognized religion, and ruthlessly suppress catholic
> minority in Northern Ireland.
Kagalenko,
Usually I try to contain my answers within boundaries of common politeness.
But after reading this garbage, the only thing to say is:
KAGALENKO, YOU'RE AN IDIOT.
YOU DON'T KNOW A SHIT ABOUT IRELAND!
This guy took an IQ test and the results were negative.
arth...@my-dejanews.com
Olga <ol...@ynp.dialup.access.net> wrote:
> Good! One illustration: my manager, Orthodox Jew, was harassed by
> skinheads in NYC subway. Another illustration: Crown Heights NYC events.
> I do not remember something bad happened to my Jewish friends back home,
> except of one example when one of my friends did not receive the highest
> score during entrance exams to the Politehcnical Institute. There were
> no visual reason to deny highest score except of this guy's last name.
> Probably, he bumped into some antisemit. If not because of him, Vova would
> be accepted only after one exam, instead he had to pass additional three,
> but he was accepted. You can find antisemits everywhere. So what?
> Why you spread hate of Russians?
> --
> Olga
Please refer to the Anonymous' "Anti-ZHID Grows in Russia" posted on this
forum today.
"A prejudice is a vagrant opinion without any visible means of support."
-- Ambrose Bierce
to...@my-dejanews.com
First of all, I would like that any debate will not degrade into a baseless
personal attack. Here are my answers below, but let's put some things
straight: show me evidence of my 'moral poverty', show me evidence of my
'racism' and what I liked most: 'class hatred'. Where did I even mention
classes? I would really appreciate if you could honestly think your
manifestly false statements through and stick to the facts being discussed.
> arth...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > Toxa wrote:
> >
> > > arthur_k wrote:
> > >
> > > You prefer to call it political correctness, thus diminishing the true
> > > uglinness of the ingrained Russian xenophobia and racism.
> >
> > How do I diminish it? How is it ingrained? The difference is: over there
> > those who dislike Jews tell that openly, here they don't.
>
> The term Political Correctness (PC) has been used lately to satirize
> ridiculous attempts to put institutionalized restrictions on free speach in
> our country. If you think that PC is the main reason why US isn't openly
> anti-semitic, you must still live in Russia, toxa (at least mentally). The
> truth can be found quite easily, without any statistics: just read DejaNews
> postings where Americans, not Russians exchange their ideas about racism and
> anti-semitism, then compare 'em to the garbage that flows unanswered on this
> and other Russian-dominated forums. How many Russians do you find objecting
> to Anonymous' postings, huh?
As for Anonumous' (and izhe s nim) postings: I haven't read any of them, so
how could I answer? The headline is enough to just skip this garbage. I did
not say that there are no anti-semites in Russia, did I? So, OK, there is
this industrious Anonymous who is churning out those messages, but you know
what? How many people actually respond in support of these claims? People
like Anonymous actually like when such garbage is being debated. I hope that
you will also be skipping these messages for they don't have anything worthy
of reading.
> > > There's lots of differences between intermittant anti-semitism in the US
> > > and prevailing one in Russia:
> >
> > How is it 'intermittant' in US and 'prevailing' in Russia?
>
> See above.
'Prevailing' means 'majority'. Do you have data that says that the majority
of Russians are anti-semitic?
> > Just a case in point: if Russia is 'prevailingly'
> > anti-semitic why the leading presidential candidate rallies against the main
> > anti-semitic organization? If most people were anti-semitic since he wants
> > to be popular, he would probably be supporting them?
>
> Can you give us a compelling explanation for the support Russian neo-nazis
> like Makashov, Zhirinovsky and Co. have in Duma and among the mainstream
> populus? Is that true that Communist fraction in Duma is virtually Juden-frie
> ?
As for Makashov, Zhirinovsky and Co, they are marginal figures. Neither has
ever been considered a major candidate. These guys are just very, very noisy
and they (especially Zhiri) love various publicity.
> > > -- USA does not have a history of a church-state, which is what Russia has
> > > been through almost all of its history. One nation -- one faith (anybody
of
> > > a religion different from Russian orthodoxy have been called
"nechestiviye",
> > > pretty much like in Iran today).
> >
> > What else do you expect? Do you know that Muslim Turks were raiding as far
> > north as Moscow non-stop in Middle Ages, the Catholic Rech Pospolita
(Poland)
> > was Russia's bitter foe in the West, almost taking it over in the XVII
century?
>
> Wow, Russians seem to be able to hold their grudge for as long as six
> centuries! Do you find it normal?
I did not defend it, I just tried to explain.
> If Europe was as idiosincratic as Russia,
> Spanish would still hate Brits, Brussels would distrust Spanish and there
> would be rampant attempts to suppress protestants in France.
The level of religious devotion in W. Europe has gone quite a bit down since
the time of Luther, and the religious wars were driven by elites, not by a
popular sentiment.
>BTW, aren't
> Poles being bitter foes of Russia because of Imperial Russian attempts to
> "re-unite" them with Moscow?
These attempts followed Pospolita's attempts to "re-unite" Russia with
Poland. They have even placed three puppet kings on the throne, but these
were overthrown by a popular uprising. If you ever see a picture of Red
Square, there is a monument there with two guys: these guys organized
Russia's liberation from Poland. Understandably, I do not condone the fact
that the Russian throne participated in a criminal division of Poland and
oppressed the Polish population in the XIX century. I admit this fact and I
do not rationalize it. It was wrong. Ever since Poland regained
independence, the Soviet Union has never seized any Polish lands (the lands
that we got in '39 were Ukrainian, Lithuanian and Belorussian lands that were
occupied by Poland in 1920) and has weilded its influence to regain the
historically Polish Silesia and Pomerania.
>Russia's never-stopping colonialism is the best
> explanation why it had and has so few friendly neighbors.
>
OK, let's see... Russians tried to colonize Germans? Turks? Japanese?
> > > -- Russia has never had a civil society.
> >
> > What about cerca 1865-1915? It was not perfect of course... How exactly do
> > you define 'civil'?
>
> It's good that you realize "it was not perfect of course". Well, it's mildly
> put. Respect for the Law has never been and still isn't a part of Russian
> life.
That's true, but hopefully it will change.
>Russian literature gives the best description of how far Russia had
> always been (and still is) from the West:
>
> U nas chuzhaya golova,
> A ubezhden'ya serdtsa hrupki...
> My -- evropeyskiye slova
> I asiatskiye postupki.
> > > That's why that country provided a natural soil for communism to take
> > > such a strong root -- collectivism of "obschina" mentality
> >
> > Collective co-operation was the only way to ensure sirvival in Russian
> > climate.
>
> You must mean: Socio-political and Cultural climate,
> because geographical climate didn't prevent, say, Scandinavian peoples from
> creating normal societies, where the rights of individual were respected.
Well, it was the most efficient. That's why there are much more Russians than
Swedes.
> > >and hatered for individualist thinking, for anything that's DIFFERENT.
> >
> > that's debatable. Russia usually had absolute monarchy / dictatorship, so
> > that kind of an attitude was directed from the top.
>
> and happily hoorayed from below.
Inertia of thinking
> "My bud'em zhdat' spokoyno i uverenno slova Gosudarstvennoi Dumy"
> -- Russkoye Slovo, January 1 1917
>
> Sama sud'ba yemu dala
> Dolgoterpeniye vola.
> Yego stegayut chem popalo,
> A on mychit, chto ochen' malo.
> -- Ivan Stepanovich Loginov, January 1917
>
> > >-- Historically Russian mentality has always been a xenophobic one.
> >
> > Russians love foreign people.
>
> As Lady Astor joke goes, "The only thing I like about rich people
> is their money."
This has nothing to do with the money, beleive me! We watch foreign movies,
listen to foreign music, care about what's going abroad to a much greater
extent than the Americans do.
> > They are slightly paranoid about being invaded
> > and conquered, but that's conditioning over centuries of constant
aggression.
>
> Aggression by Russia on virtually all of its neighbors?
Neighboring countries often feude. Do you want to say that we have never been
ourselves victims of aggression?
> > > Jews, with their easily distinguishable traditional appearances were just
> > > the perfect target for the GOVERNMENT SPONSORED anti-semitism.
>
> > That's true, but you have correctly put emphasis on GOVERNMENT SPONSORED
>
> and happily hoorayed from below (and still is, just read what Russians are
> writing on this thread! See "Anti-ZHID Grows in Russia", posted today)
Do yourself a favor: don't read any posts that contain 'zhid' in them. Once
again, there are anti-semites in Russia. They are not 'PREVAILING' as you put
it.
> Please ask yourself, why did you personally choose not to respond to the
> original post, which started this thread and contained an ugly underlying
> anti-semitic provocation? Instead, you became outraged enough with my
> responses to start this argument...
> That's what's so good about an open forum: it's awfully hard to mask your
> real convictions -- it's there for everybody to see!
I do not like when a whole nations is being attacked for lunacy of a few
noisy individuals, that's all. I was not particularly outraged, but I felt
that your stereotyping of Russians as anti-semites is wrong.
> > > -- As Raymond Aron wrote: "Racism is the snobbery of the poor". That's
what
> > > the Russians were, are and most probably will be (with their attitudes) in
> > > the forseeable future -- poor.
>
> > Anti-semitism is not based on poverty. It is based on a perception that the
> > Jews are better off (which is often the case due to various factors) than
the
> > Russians.
> > Anton Granovsky
>
> Yes, Anton, Russia has been demonstrating for quite a long while the worst
> kind of class hatered combined with the racial hatered, powered by chronic
> xenophobia and angst of people, who are poor both materially and morally.
> Isn't that what you call VSESOYUZNIY KOMPLEKS ? Yeah, slightly paranoid...
>
> Take care, comrade.
>
> arthur_k
I have never heard of a 'vsesoyuzny kompleks'. As for the totally
uncalled-for personal attack on my character and on the whole Russian nation,
I have answered in the beginning of the posting.
Once again, I would really like if you conduct your debate in a 'civil' (your
own term) manner: no personal attack, objectivity, no stereotyping, no
collective guilt-inspired attacks for lunacy of a limited number of
individuals. Anti-semitism, as any form of xenophobia, racism, etc. is a
terrible thing, but most societies have to deal with it somehow.
One more wish, stated once again: stop reading / responding to antisemitic
postings. Doing otherwise inspires these dimwits to churn out more garbage
than they already do.
Anton Granovsky
arth...@my-dejanews.com
So, I'll skip the chewing gum and focus on a few points I think are important.
In article <7gu0ov$g9b$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
to...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Toxa wrote:
> As for Anonumous' (and izhe s nim) postings: I haven't read any of them, so
> how could I answer? The headline is enough to just skip this garbage. I did
> not say that there are no anti-semites in Russia, did I?
Niether did I. We're in full agreement on this one, Anton.
> So, OK, there is
> this industrious Anonymous who is churning out those messages, but you know
> what? How many people actually respond in support of these claims?
Go visit any of the non-Russian forums on DejaNews or any other chat-room,
and you will see multiple examples, how American public reacts to racist
propaganda. If Russia wants to be considered a civilized modern society, she
has to finally realize that EVERY TIME RACISM RAISES ITS UGLY FACE ON YOUR
SIDE and Russians do not confront it, the visions of pogroms, both before and
after the revolution pop up in the minds of those people who know Russian
history.
> Do you have data that says that the majority of Russians are anti-semitic?
Majority of Russians will not openly protest if somebody in their company
throws an ugly anti-semitic or anti-black tirade. I've been in Russia
many times, and this common acceptance of racism always stroke me as a
bizarre side of a Russian character. On the other hand, should anybody say
anything about your country, which goes against the grain, it always draws
their immediate and quite forceful response. The notion of individual rights
is still pretty much non-existant, while rabid patriotism seems obligatory.
> As for Makashov, Zhirinovsky and Co, they are marginal figures. Neither has
> ever been considered a major candidate. These guys are just very, very noisy
> and they (especially Zhiri) love various publicity.
What percentage of the Duma seats are held by a combination of Zhirinovski's,
Makashov's supporters and Juden-frei Communist fraction, Anton ?
> > Wow, Russians seem to be able to hold their grudge for as long as six
> > centuries! Do you find it normal?
> I did not defend it, I just tried to explain.
I didn't defend it either. I just tried to explain that until grudges like
this disappear, there's little chance that Russians will be able to build
normal relations with their neighbors.
> The level of religious devotion in W. Europe has gone quite a bit down since
> the time of Luther, and the religious wars were driven by elites, not by a
> popular sentiment.
Are you trying to convince me, that Russia is more religious country than,
say, England or Italy or Germany? C'mon, Anton, who are you kidding?
As to elites vs. plebs ...
Gosudarya imperatora
Kursk, vstrechaya, ot krestyan
Vyslal Suchkina -- oratora,
Sukovnina ot dvoryan.
Bot zachem po vozvraschenii
Na vopros svoey zheny:
"Chto kuryane?" -- tzar v smuschenii
Molvil: "Sukiny syny".
> >BTW, aren't
> > Poles being bitter foes of Russia because of Imperial Russian attempts to
> > "re-unite" them with Moscow?
>
> These attempts followed Pospolita's attempts to "re-unite" Russia with
> Poland. They have even placed three puppet kings on the throne, but these
> were overthrown by a popular uprising. If you ever see a picture of Red
> Square, there is a monument there with two guys: these guys organized
> Russia's liberation from Poland.
Again, you're going back to 1605-1612 in your attempts to explain why Poles
and Russians, to put it mildly, aren't the best of friends. It doesn't make
much sense to me. The whole story of 3 puppet kings has never materialized,
and has nothing to do with mutual animosities existing today.
> Understandably, I do not condone the fact
> that the Russian throne participated in a criminal division of Poland and
> oppressed the Polish population in the XIX century. I admit this fact and I
> do not rationalize it. It was wrong. Ever since Poland regained
> independence, the Soviet Union has never seized any Polish lands (the lands
> that we got in '39 were Ukrainian, Lithuanian and Belorussian lands that were
> occupied by Poland in 1920) and has weilded its influence to regain the
> historically Polish Silesia and Pomerania.
Did you ever have a chance to talk to Ukraininans "liberated" in 1939 ????
And since when, Anton, Lithuanian lands are Russian ??????????????????????
I would've asked if you were smoking crack, but remembering your plea to keep
this conversation within boundaries of civility, I better say nothing here!
> >Russia's never-stopping colonialism is the best
> > explanation why it had and has so few friendly neighbors.
> >
> OK, let's see... Russians tried to colonize Germans? Turks? Japanese?
Russia colonized all the peoples which used to be called "bratskiye
respubliki" during the Soviet era. It also colonized and brutally degraded
all Siberian peoples (close relatives of American indians; when Russians are
hard pressed to defend their ugly national policies in a debate, they usually
resort to accusing Americans of being anti-black and anti-native indian. The
truth is, small Siberian nations would dream to live under conditions
indigenous people live in the USA.) In the beginning of WWII Russia colonized
part of Finland, parts of Romania, Poland, independent Baltic republics, part
of Manchzhuria. After the war, Russia imposed puppet regimes all over Eastern
Europe. Then there were Berlin Wall, Hungary 1956, Chechoslovakia 1968,
Afghanistan 1979, then Moldova, Chechnya... How would you like to be a
Russia's neighbor, Anton?
> > Respect for the Law has never been and still isn't a part of Russian life.
> > life.
> That's true, but hopefully it will change.
Is that a part of the next 5-year plan? Then I wouldn't hold my breath.
> > > Collective co-operation was the only way to ensure sirvival in Russian
> > > climate.
> >
> > You must mean: Socio-political and Cultural climate,
> > because geographical climate didn't prevent, say, Scandinavian peoples from
> > creating normal societies, where the rights of individual were respected.
> Well, it was the most efficient.
> That's why there are much more Russians than Swedes.
This is exactly the case proving that the fewer the better.
> > > Russians love foreign people.
> >
> > As Lady Astor joke goes, "The only thing I like about rich people
> > is their money."
>
> This has nothing to do with the money, beleive me! We watch foreign movies,
> listen to foreign music, care about what's going abroad to a much greater
> extent than the Americans do.
Yeah. You have inquisitive mind. But also a very materialistic one.
Rarely have I seen people who were as attracted to all things material as
Russians. Masses' interest in foreign culture is mainly in "shmotki", "kary"
and "vyjebat' etu amrikanskuyu tyolku".
I would argue that those of us who take interest in Russia are much more
aware of what's going on in your country, compared to even those Russians
living here in the USA knowledge and understanding of America.
> > Aggression by Russia on virtually all of its neighbors?
>
> Neighboring countries often feude. Do you want to say that we have never
> been ourselves victims of aggression?
No. It's you who want to portray Russia as an innocent virgin, attacked by a
bunch of brutal neiborhood rapists.
> I do not like when a whole nations is being attacked for lunacy of a few
> noisy individuals, that's all. I was not particularly outraged, but I felt
> that your stereotyping of Russians as anti-semites is wrong.
Well, I guess I have answered that. After the WWII Germany had gone through
pretty intense de-nazification process. We're still waiting for Russia to
do the same. Your criminals guilty of crimes against humanity have never been
punished. Maybe that explains, why it's so hard for your country to embrace
the democratic reforms.
Take care, Anton.
arthur_k
to...@my-dejanews.com
First of all, I appreciate that you have changed the tone of the conversation
to the better. :)
arth...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> This thing is getting too long, and I have to work for living.
> So, I'll skip the chewing gum and focus on a few points I think are important.
[skip the portion that we agree on]
> Go visit any of the non-Russian forums on DejaNews or any other chat-room,
> and you will see multiple examples, how American public reacts to racist
> propaganda.
>If Russia wants to be considered a civilized modern society, she
> has to finally realize that EVERY TIME RACISM RAISES ITS UGLY FACE ON YOUR
> SIDE and Russians do not confront it, the visions of pogroms, both before and
> after the revolution pop up in the minds of those people who know Russian
> history.
> Majority of Russians will not openly protest if somebody in their company
> throws an ugly anti-semitic or anti-black tirade. I've been in Russia
> many times, and this common acceptance of racism always stroke me as a
> bizarre side of a Russian character.
You brought up a good and difficult point. I do not believe that the majority
of the people are racist / anti-semitic/ etc. The problem is that many people
just don't feel that they should stand against those who are.
>On the other hand, should anybody say
> anything about your country, which goes against the grain, it always draws
> their immediate and quite forceful response. The notion of individual rights
> is still pretty much non-existant, while rabid patriotism seems obligatory.
An attack on Russia is taken as a personal attack, and reacted to accordingly.
Americans are one of the people who can often discuss their own country in a
detached manner.
> What percentage of the Duma seats are held by a combination of Zhirinovski's,
> Makashov's supporters and Juden-frei Communist fraction, Anton ?
Zhirinovsky, Makashov and KPRF are distinct organizations. In fact, the
existence of Zhiri is good, since it precludes the Communists from winning as
LDPR takes always a certain percentage of the vote. KPRF is certainly large,
but it is not an anti-semitic institution as a whole, although a number of
its supporters have gone on record as anti-semites. Actually, Jews should be
proud for not having any commies. With the coming elections, communists, and
especially Zhiri will lose a lot of power.
> > > Wow, Russians seem to be able to hold their grudge for as long as six
> > > centuries! Do you find it normal?
>
> > I did not defend it, I just tried to explain.
>
> I didn't defend it either. I just tried to explain that until grudges like
> this disappear, there's little chance that Russians will be able to build
> normal relations with their neighbors.
We have normal relations with our neighbors. We do not claim anyone else's
territory and we have diplomatic relations with all of our neighbors. I
understand that there are those who for various reasons want to recreate the
Soyuz, but even among those a number of supporters of a forceful solution is
very small.
> > The level of religious devotion in W. Europe has gone quite a bit down since
> > the time of Luther, and the religious wars were driven by elites, not by a
> > popular sentiment.
>
> Are you trying to convince me, that Russia is more religious country than,
> say, England or Italy or Germany? C'mon, Anton, who are you kidding?
I meant the influence of the church's hierarchy on the country's policies.
Also, I meant the religiousness in a sence of histility towards other faiths.
> As to elites vs. plebs ...
>
> Gosudarya imperatora
> Kursk, vstrechaya, ot krestyan
> Vyslal Suchkina -- oratora,
> Sukovnina ot dvoryan.
>
> Bot zachem po vozvraschenii
> Na vopros svoey zheny:
> "Chto kuryane?" -- tzar v smuschenii
> Molvil: "Sukiny syny".
Imperator is gone. Communists are pretty much gone also. We have a republic.
> > >BTW, aren't
> > > Poles being bitter foes of Russia because of Imperial Russian attempts to
> > > "re-unite" them with Moscow?
> >
> > These attempts followed Pospolita's attempts to "re-unite" Russia with
> > Poland. They have even placed three puppet kings on the throne, but these
> > were overthrown by a popular uprising. If you ever see a picture of Red
> > Square, there is a monument there with two guys: these guys organized
> > Russia's liberation from Poland.
>
> Again, you're going back to 1605-1612 in your attempts to explain why Poles
> and Russians, to put it mildly, aren't the best of friends. It doesn't make
> much sense to me. The whole story of 3 puppet kings has never materialized,
> and has nothing to do with mutual animosities existing today.
I just brought this to illustrate that Poland has not always been a victim of
Russia. The animocity stems from the dispute over the territories between
Poland and Russia that has led to constant struggles.
> > Understandably, I do not condone the fact
> > that the Russian throne participated in a criminal division of Poland and
> > oppressed the Polish population in the XIX century. I admit this fact and I
> > do not rationalize it. It was wrong. Ever since Poland regained
> > independence, the Soviet Union has never seized any Polish lands (the lands
> > that we got in '39 were Ukrainian, Lithuanian and Belorussian lands that
were
> > occupied by Poland in 1920) and has weilded its influence to regain the
> > historically Polish Silesia and Pomerania.
>
> Did you ever have a chance to talk to Ukraininans "liberated" in 1939 ????
FYI, I am half Ukrainian, so I know about Stalin's policies there first hand.
Where did you see me use the word "liberated"? This excuse was a hypocritical
excuse by Stalin to take opportunity of annexing extra land to the USSR. The
fact is, that these lands have been illegally occupied by Poland in 1920.
Stalin even "returned" some of these -- Belostok and Peremyshl' in 1945 for
some reason.
> And since when, Anton, Lithuanian lands are Russian ??????????????????????
I nowhere said that Lithuanian lands are Russian. Where did you get that
from? All I said that the Red Army took Vilna that Lithuania was claiming as
its own, but it was occupied by Poland in 1920. Right now it is their
capital.
> I would've asked if you were smoking crack, but remembering your plea to keep
> this conversation within boundaries of civility, I better say nothing here!
Once again, I nowhere said that Lithuania was supposed to be Russian.
> > >Russia's never-stopping colonialism is the best
> > > explanation why it had and has so few friendly neighbors.
> > >
> > OK, let's see... Russians tried to colonize Germans? Turks? Japanese?
>
> Russia colonized all the peoples which used to be called "bratskiye
> respubliki" during the Soviet era. It also colonized and brutally degraded
> all Siberian peoples (close relatives of American indians; when Russians are
> hard pressed to defend their ugly national policies in a debate, they usually
> resort to accusing Americans of being anti-black and anti-native indian. The
> truth is, small Siberian nations would dream to live under conditions
> indigenous people live in the USA.) In the beginning of WWII Russia colonized
> part of Finland, parts of Romania, Poland, independent Baltic republics, part
> of Manchzhuria. After the war, Russia imposed puppet regimes all over Eastern
> Europe. Then there were Berlin Wall, Hungary 1956, Chechoslovakia 1968,
> Afghanistan 1979, then Moldova, Chechnya... How would you like to be a
> Russia's neighbor, Anton?
First of all, most of the "Bratskiye Respubliki" joined Russia before the
Revolution and mostly by the will of their leadership at that time.
As for the rights of the Siberian people.... Look on the size of their lands
to the size of reservations in the US. Do you guys give each Indian nation
representaion in the Senate? The problem there is not aborigines' rights that
are plenty, but the distruction of nature.
> > > Respect for the Law has never been and still isn't a part of Russian life.
> > > life.
>
> > That's true, but hopefully it will change.
>
> Is that a part of the next 5-year plan? Then I wouldn't hold my breath.
As soon as the people will feel that the laws are being passed for their
benefit and with their approval.
> > > > Collective co-operation was the only way to ensure sirvival in Russian
> > > > climate.
> > >
> > > You must mean: Socio-political and Cultural climate,
> > > because geographical climate didn't prevent, say, Scandinavian peoples
from
> > > creating normal societies, where the rights of individual were respected.
>
> > Well, it was the most efficient.
> > That's why there are much more Russians than Swedes.
>
> This is exactly the case proving that the fewer the better.
You don't like Swedes too????????
> > > > Russians love foreign people.
> > >
> > > As Lady Astor joke goes, "The only thing I like about rich people
> > > is their money."
> >
> > This has nothing to do with the money, beleive me! We watch foreign movies,
> > listen to foreign music, care about what's going abroad to a much greater
> > extent than the Americans do.
>
> Yeah. You have inquisitive mind. But also a very materialistic one.
> Rarely have I seen people who were as attracted to all things material as
> Russians. Masses' interest in foreign culture is mainly in "shmotki", "kary"
> and "vyjebat' etu amrikanskuyu tyolku".
> I would argue that those of us who take interest in Russia are much more
> aware of what's going on in your country, compared to even those Russians
> living here in the USA knowledge and understanding of America.
Well, these are people that you meet.
'Tell me who your friends are, and I will tell who you are!'
since you like quotations. :)
> > > Aggression by Russia on virtually all of its neighbors?
> >
> > Neighboring countries often feude. Do you want to say that we have never
> > been ourselves victims of aggression?
>
> No. It's you who want to portray Russia as an innocent virgin, attacked by a
> bunch of brutal neiborhood rapists.
I have never said that Russia did not take part in any wars.
> > I do not like when a whole nations is being attacked for lunacy of a few
> > noisy individuals, that's all. I was not particularly outraged, but I felt
> > that your stereotyping of Russians as anti-semites is wrong.
>
> Well, I guess I have answered that. After the WWII Germany had gone through
> pretty intense de-nazification process. We're still waiting for Russia to
> do the same. Your criminals guilty of crimes against humanity have never been
> punished. Maybe that explains, why it's so hard for your country to embrace
> the democratic reforms.
Stalin's administrators are all either dead or nearly dead now. It's too
late to punish them. As for the young, they know what has happened. As for
the old that you see in the street with Lenin's portraits: this was the time
when they were young, when they fell in love, when they still had time to
materialize their dreams. Almost everyone is going to idealize the time when
they were young.
> Take care, Anton.
>
> arthur_k
>
Take care, Arthur.
Boris B Gorshkov
Anerican politics are dominated by evangelical Christian radicals, in
particular in the local government. One always hear from the evangelical
Christian media that the USA is a country created by Christians and that
people here should vote for Christians. What these Christian ministers
say is almost always politics. The relationship between Chiristian
religion and the state in very close in the USA. I could give many
examples here.
The idea of absence of civil society in Russia is a
nonsense. If Russian civil society is absent from historiography this
does not mean that it has never existed in Russia. The absence of
civil society in histories reflects anything but the reality. Resent
post cold war studies bagan to discover a civil society in
pre-revolutionary Russia.
I am conserned a little about civil societies in countries,
members of NATO. Is this current barbarism of NATO a product of current
civil societies and material prosperity of its member states?
Now about "nechestivye." This word means something else and has
been used to name something different. People of the religions other than
Russian Orthodox have been called "inovertsy" not "nechestivye." Your
comments, unfortunately display profound ignorance of Russian history,
and particularly the most recent historiography. The idea of
"collectivist" Russians is an anachronistic one. One should not tie
himself/herself up to these traditional hackneyed interpretations.
Best,
BG
arth...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
: There's lots of differences between intermittant anti-semitism in the
US and : prevailing one in Russia:
: -- unlike in Russia, anti-semites constitute a tiny minority in our country.
: -- USA does not have a history of a church-state, which is what Russia has
: been through almost all of its history. One nation -- one faith (anybody of
: a religion different from Russian orthodoxy have been called "nechestiviye",
: pretty much like in Iran today). -- Russia has never had a civil society.
: That's why that country provided a natural soil for communism to take such a
: strong root -- collectivism of "obschina" mentality and hatered for
: individualist thinking, for anything that's DIFFERENT. -- Historically
: Russian mentality has always been a xenophobic one. Jews, with their easily
: distinguishable traditional appearances were just the perfect target for the
: GOVERNMENT SPONSORED anti-semitism. -- As Raymond Aron wrote: "Racism is the
: snobbery of the poor". That's what the Russians were, are and most probably
: will be (with their attitudes) in the forseeable future -- poor.
: I bet you, there will be few responses coming, as if to illustrate my points.
: arthur_k
: -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
arth...@my-dejanews.com
gor...@mail.auburn.edu (Boris B Gorshkov) wrote:
> USA does not have any history of church state officially. In fact
> Anerican politics are dominated by evangelical Christian radicals, in
> particular in the local government.
Boris,
I don't know how long you've been living in the US, but let me assure you:
you don't have a clue as to what separation of church and state means and
how equal protection under the law works here.
I'm not gonna waste my time trying to educate you on the subject. If you
stay here long enough, you'll learn.
> One always hear from the evangelical
> Christian media that the USA is a country created by Christians and that
> people here should vote for Christians. What these Christian ministers
> say is almost always politics. The relationship between Chiristian
> religion and the state in very close in the USA. I could give many
> examples here.
"One always hear from the evangelical Christian media"?
Who the hell listens to the TV evangelists, except those poor folks
in the Bible Belt (10% of the USA population, the least educated.)
Sure TV evangelists claim that US is a Christian country. What do you expect
them to say? And who cares what thay say anyways? We have our Constitution
to take care of keeping them in check. That's what you should do with your
Orthodox church in Russia as well (that is, of course, if you ever plan to
become a true democracy.)
> The idea of absence of civil society in Russia is a nonsense.
Darn, I jus' love Russian style arguments!
> If Russian civil society is absent from historiography this
> does not mean that it has never existed in Russia. The absence of
> civil society in histories reflects anything but the reality. Resent
> post cold war studies bagan to discover a civil society in
> pre-revolutionary Russia.
What's so fascinating about Russians, is your familiarity with history.
WY S NEY NA TY. If history or historiography doesn't quite support the
politically correct point of view of the moment, you say, it's all right.
There's always a couple of Kandidatov Istoricheskix Nauk, who will
"discover" whatever trend you're looking for, - and voila! here you have
your civil society, buddy. Bud' zdorov, nye kashlyay!
> I am conserned a little about civil societies in countries,
> members of NATO. Is this current barbarism of NATO a product of current
> civil societies and material prosperity of its member states?
Oh sure. We just sail around the globe, looking to bomb the shit of some
Russian client, 'cause we need to keep bomb-producing factories from
going out of business (that's almost direct quotation from the old Soviet
"Spravochnik Agitatora", 1980.)
> Now about "nechestivye." This word means something else and has
> been used to name something different. People of the religions other than
> Russian Orthodox have been called "inovertsy" not "nechestivye." Your
> comments, unfortunately display profound ignorance of Russian history,
> and particularly the most recent historiography.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ As far as recent historiography is
concerned - see above. The problem isn't that Orthodox church would call
people of different religions "inovertsy" or "nechestivye". The problem has
been and still is, that THE STATE IS TREATING PEOPLE according to
racial/religious definitions, the problem is -- that your church is NOT
SEPARATED FROM STATE. How are you going to defend the famous fifth paragraph
("pyataya grafa") in Russian internal ID ("passport"). Please explain to us,
what positive role does this information play, what makes you people keep
using it. Do you realize that you're the only nation (after the fall of
Hitler's Germany) which keeps this kind of records on its citizens?
"Inovertsy", "nechestivye", what the fucken difference? Vsyo ravno - ZHIDY.
:-)
> The idea of "collectivist" Russians is an anachronistic one. One should not
> tie himself/herself up to these traditional hackneyed interpretations.
> Best, BG
Oh, well. When a chorus of Russians, in a sigle voice, keep singing that
the notion of "collectivist" obschina is dead, what is an individual like
myself to do? I guess, I'll have to accept the voice of the masses ...
Cheers, Boris. And say hello to Natasha from me.
arth...@my-dejanews.com
to...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Toxa replies:
> You brought up a good and difficult point. I do not believe that the majority
> of the people are racist / anti-semitic/ etc. The problem is that many people
> just don't feel that they should stand against those who are.
Any idea, why ?
Can you think really hard and try to come up with an honest answer?
> An attack on Russia is taken as a personal attack, and reacted to accordingly.
> Americans are one of the people who can often discuss their own country in a
> detached manner.
"Patriotism is the last resort of scoundrels"
"Patriotizm - poslednee pribezhische negodyaev"
> > What percentage of the Duma seats are held by a combination of
Zhirinovski's,
> > Makashov's supporters and Juden-frei Communist fraction, Anton ?
>
> Zhirinovsky, Makashov and KPRF are distinct organizations. In fact, the
> existence of Zhiri is good, since it precludes the Communists from winning as
> LDPR takes always a certain percentage of the vote. KPRF is certainly large,
> but it is not an anti-semitic institution as a whole, although a number of
> its supporters have gone on record as anti-semites. Actually, Jews should be
> proud for not having any commies. With the coming elections, communists, and
> especially Zhiri will lose a lot of power.
Your take on the reason, why Jews should be a proud group in Russia, is a
curious one! But that's besides the point. What I was asking
(unsuccessfully) was -- how come that majority of Russian population supports
candidates who are openly anti-semitic, and you still contend that there's no
persistent anti- semitism in your country?
> We have normal relations with our neighbors. We do not claim anyone else's
> territory and we have diplomatic relations with all of our neighbors.
Forget the diplomatic relations.
Don't Russians ever ask themselves, why is it that they draw so little
popularity inside their neighboring countries, be it Check Republic, Poland,
Romania, Azerbaijan or Georgia?
> > > The level of religious devotion in W. Europe has gone quite a bit down
> > > since the time of Luther, and the religious wars were driven by elites,
> > > not by a popular sentiment.
> >
> > Are you trying to convince me, that Russia is more religious country than,
> > say, England or Italy or Germany? C'mon, Anton, who are you kidding?
>
> I meant the influence of the church's hierarchy on the country's policies.
> Also, I meant the religiousness in a sence of histility towards other faiths.
Oh yeah? And how does "German religion" run that country; and which religion
is that -- Lutheran, Catholic? Have you ever been to Italy? Have you felt
any hostility just because of your ethnicity or Russian Orthodox faith?
What are you talking about, Anton??? Oh, don't answer. Just forget it.
> I just brought this to illustrate that Poland has not always been a victim of
> Russia. The animocity stems from the dispute over the territories between
> Poland and Russia that has led to constant struggles.
All right, why don't you give us the score of this historic game: Who has
scored more militaristic goals against the other side: Poles or Russians?
See? And you're painting some kind of a political draw on the canvas of
history.
> > Did you ever have a chance to talk to Ukraininans "liberated" in 1939 ????
> FYI, I am half Ukrainian, so I know about Stalin's policies there first hand.
> Where did you see me use the word "liberated"? This excuse was a hypocritical
> excuse by Stalin to take opportunity of annexing extra land to the USSR. The
> fact is, that these lands have been illegally occupied by Poland in 1920.
Anton, I'm afraid you'll have to go farther back to discover that Poland used
to possess these lands long before 1920. But again, this is also beyond the
point of discussion. Ukrainians under Polish rule were much, much better off
compared to what happened to them after "liberation". Anyway, Stalin didn't
grab "Zapadnye oblasti" to make Ukrainan culture flourish -- it was a brutal
genocidal occupation, much like what Serbs are doing today to the Albanians
in Kosovo. Milosevic is but a little Serbian Stalin today. Think about it.
> I nowhere said that Lithuanian lands are Russian. Where did you get that
> from? All I said that the Red Army took Vilna that Lithuania was claiming as
> its own, but it was occupied by Poland in 1920.
The same goes for Lithuania.
> First of all, most of the "Bratskiye Respubliki" joined Russia before the
> Revolution and mostly by the will of their leadership at that time.
HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!! Haven't you ever read Tolstoy's descriptions of Caucasus
wars? And where do you say Karelo-Finnskaya Avtonomnaya Respublica came from?
About Ukraine you should know better as well...
> As for the rights of the Siberian people.... Look on the size of their lands
> to the size of reservations in the US. Do you guys give each Indian nation
> representaion in the Senate? The problem there is not aborigines' rights that
> are plenty, but the distruction of nature.
Exatly! Total destruction is what Russia had brought to Nentsy, Yakuts and
others.
Rezets istorii tebe, hanzha lukaviy,
Gluboko nachertit na grobovoy plite:
"On znamenye kresta tvoril rukoyu pravoi,
A levoy raspinal narody na kreste."
-- Michail Larionovich Michailov.
> > > >Respect for the Law has never been and still isn't a part of Russian
> > > >life.
> > > That's true, but hopefully it will change.
> As soon as the people will feel that the laws are being passed for their
> benefit and with their approval.
As I have suggested before: don't hold your breath.
> > > > > Collective co-operation was the only way to ensure sirvival in Russian
> > > > > climate.
> > > >
> > > > You must mean: Socio-political and Cultural climate, because
> > > > geographical climate didn't prevent, say, Scandinavian peoples from
> > > > creating normal societies, where the rights of individual were respected
> >
> > > Well, it was the most efficient.
> > > That's why there are much more Russians than Swedes.
> >
> > This is exactly the case proving that the fewer the better.
>
> You don't like Swedes too????????
What I was saying - that quality does not necessarily correlate with quantity.
Russians and Swedes provide the proof.
> > Yeah. You have inquisitive mind. But also a very materialistic one.
> > Rarely have I seen people who were as attracted to all things material as
> > Russians. Masses' interest in foreign culture is mainly in "shmotki", "kary"
> > and "vyjebat' etu amrikanskuyu tyolku".
> > I would argue that those of us who take interest in Russia are much more
> > aware of what's going on in your country, compared to even those Russians
> > living here in the USA knowledge and understanding of America.
> Well, these are people that you meet.
> 'Tell me who your friends are, and I will tell who you are!'
> since you like quotations. :)
Every society has people of all walks of life. There have always existed
quite intense intellectual elite in Russia (at least in Moscow and SPB).
But I am not talking about elites. Statistically speaking, my observations
above correctly reflect Russian crowd mentality, don't they, Anton?
> Stalin's administrators are all either dead or nearly dead now.
> It's too late to punish them.
No delo ih zhivet!
And that's why the threads like this keep popping up every hour of the day
in all Russian chat-rooms.
Take care, Anton.
You've got eyes. It's up to you to open 'em and see.
arthur_k
to...@my-dejanews.com
I must admit that you have brought a lot of strong points that are true, but
some of it is still not quite correct.
arth...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <7h0oop$u8h$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> to...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > Toxa replies:
>
> > You brought up a good and difficult point. I do not believe that the
majority
> > of the people are racist / anti-semitic/ etc. The problem is that many
people
> > just don't feel that they should stand against those who are.
>
> Any idea, why ?
> Can you think really hard and try to come up with an honest answer?
If the person is not Jewish, they don't feel that this attack hurts them, so
for various reasons they do not start objecting. You should realize, however,
that many very popular people who engaged actively in politics were fighting
anti-semitism, from Leo Tolstoy to Luzhkov.
> > An attack on Russia is taken as a personal attack, and reacted to
accordingly.
> > Americans are one of the people who can often discuss their own country in a
> > detached manner.
>
> "Patriotism is the last resort of scoundrels"
> "Patriotizm - poslednee pribezhische negodyaev"
>
It depends on how you define patriotism. If someone defines it as aggression
and revisionism towards Russia's neighbors and minorities, then I agree with
the above. The thing is that real patriotism has nothing to do with that.
> > > What percentage of the Duma seats are held by a combination of
> Zhirinovski's,
> > > Makashov's supporters and Juden-frei Communist fraction, Anton ?
> >
> > Zhirinovsky, Makashov and KPRF are distinct organizations. In fact, the
> > existence of Zhiri is good, since it precludes the Communists from winning
as
> > LDPR takes always a certain percentage of the vote. KPRF is certainly
large,
> > but it is not an anti-semitic institution as a whole, although a number of
> > its supporters have gone on record as anti-semites. Actually, Jews should
be
> > proud for not having any commies. With the coming elections, communists,
and
> > especially Zhiri will lose a lot of power.
>
> Your take on the reason, why Jews should be a proud group in Russia, is a
> curious one! But that's besides the point. What I was asking
> (unsuccessfully) was -- how come that majority of Russian population supports
> candidates who are openly anti-semitic, and you still contend that there's no
> persistent anti- semitism in your country?
They get elected because they promise to improve the lot of the people.
That's the main thing. Just like in the US, the majority votes for
economics, and the various social issues interest groups side with the either
party to push their agenda.
> > We have normal relations with our neighbors. We do not claim anyone else's
> > territory and we have diplomatic relations with all of our neighbors.
>
> Forget the diplomatic relations.
> Don't Russians ever ask themselves, why is it that they draw so little
> popularity inside their neighboring countries, be it Check Republic, Poland,
> Romania, Azerbaijan or Georgia?
I don't think we are very unpopular in Romania, but who knows? We do, and if
the person thinks hard enough they would understand these reasons. But you
will see, that as our country continues on its democratic path, these
feelings w will disappear!
> > > > The level of religious devotion in W. Europe has gone quite a bit down
> > > > since the time of Luther, and the religious wars were driven by elites,
> > > > not by a popular sentiment.
> > >
> > > Are you trying to convince me, that Russia is more religious country than,
> > > say, England or Italy or Germany? C'mon, Anton, who are you kidding?
> >
> > I meant the influence of the church's hierarchy on the country's policies.
> > Also, I meant the religiousness in a sence of histility towards other
faiths.
>
> Oh yeah? And how does "German religion" run that country; and which religion
> is that -- Lutheran, Catholic? Have you ever been to Italy? Have you felt
> any hostility just because of your ethnicity or Russian Orthodox faith?
> What are you talking about, Anton??? Oh, don't answer. Just forget it.
You misundersood me. I was referring to the state of affairs in today's
Russia, not in W. Europe. Also, I am Jewish myself, actually half-Ukrainian
and half-Jewish. I was not bringing it up, since I was trying to keep this
discussion objective. And, no, I have never been in Italy, but I wish I would
go someday. It is a beautiful country!
> > I just brought this to illustrate that Poland has not always been a victim
of
> > Russia. The animocity stems from the dispute over the territories between
> > Poland and Russia that has led to constant struggles.
>
> All right, why don't you give us the score of this historic game: Who has
> scored more militaristic goals against the other side: Poles or Russians?
> See? And you're painting some kind of a political draw on the canvas of
> history.
The score does not matter! If circumstances were different, Poland would try
to expand at Russia's expence. That's true not just with Poland, but with
every other nation in history. Hopefully, this pattern is disappearing.
> > > Did you ever have a chance to talk to Ukraininans "liberated" in 1939 ????
>
> > FYI, I am half Ukrainian, so I know about Stalin's policies there first
hand.
> > Where did you see me use the word "liberated"? This excuse was a
hypocritical
> > excuse by Stalin to take opportunity of annexing extra land to the USSR.
The
> > fact is, that these lands have been illegally occupied by Poland in 1920.
>
> Anton, I'm afraid you'll have to go farther back to discover that Poland used
> to possess these lands long before 1920.
Yeah, they conquered them. Why should Ukraine be in Poland or Russia? It is
perfect the way it is now.
> But again, this is also beyond the
> point of discussion. Ukrainians under Polish rule were much, much better off
> compared to what happened to them after "liberation". Anyway, Stalin didn't
> grab "Zapadnye oblasti" to make Ukrainan culture flourish -- it was a brutal
> genocidal occupation,
I do not contest that. He participated in the conquest of the independent
Ukrainian state personally, and he was using this as a pretext to gain
industrially developed Western Ukraine. However, it must be said, that these
territories were conquered by Poland in 1919-20. There was a short-lived
Western Ukrainian Republic there before that.
> much like what Serbs are doing today to the Albanians
> in Kosovo. Milosevic is but a little Serbian Stalin today. Think about it.
Arthur, why are you getting Jugoslavia into this? You know my position, but
this is a material for a totally different discussion.
> > I nowhere said that Lithuanian lands are Russian. Where did you get that
> > from? All I said that the Red Army took Vilna that Lithuania was claiming as
> > its own, but it was occupied by Poland in 1920.
>
> The same goes for Lithuania.
See my reply above re. W. Ukraine.
> > First of all, most of the "Bratskiye Respubliki" joined Russia before the
> > Revolution and mostly by the will of their leadership at that time.
>
> HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!! Haven't you ever read Tolstoy's descriptions of Caucasus
> wars? And where do you say Karelo-Finnskaya Avtonomnaya Respublica came from?
> About Ukraine you should know better as well...
See the words "most" and "the will of their leadership". I did not say "all"
or "the will of the people".
> > As for the rights of the Siberian people.... Look on the size of their
lands
> > to the size of reservations in the US. Do you guys give each Indian nation
> > representaion in the Senate? The problem there is not aborigines' rights
that
> > are plenty, but the distruction of nature.
>
> Exatly! Total destruction is what Russia had brought to Nentsy, Yakuts and
> others.
>
They have their own republics, governments, schools that teach in their
language, literacy, Russian-built cities. I did not say that all is perfect,
but they would have been treated much worse by other European countries.
Rezets istorii tebe, hanzha lukaviy,
> Gluboko nachertit na grobovoy plite:
> "On znamenye kresta tvoril rukoyu pravoi,
> A levoy raspinal narody na kreste."
> -- Michail Larionovich Michailov.
Arthur, did you major in Russian history?
> > > > >Respect for the Law has never been and still isn't a part of Russian
> > > > >life.
> > > > That's true, but hopefully it will change.
> > As soon as the people will feel that the laws are being passed for their
> > benefit and with their approval.
>
> As I have suggested before: don't hold your breath.
You will see!
> > > > > > Collective co-operation was the only way to ensure sirvival in
Russian
> > > > > > climate.
> > > > >
> > > > > You must mean: Socio-political and Cultural climate, because
> > > > > geographical climate didn't prevent, say, Scandinavian peoples from
> > > > > creating normal societies, where the rights of individual were
respected
> > >
> > > > Well, it was the most efficient.
> > > > That's why there are much more Russians than Swedes.
> > >
> > > This is exactly the case proving that the fewer the better.
> >
> > You don't like Swedes too????????
>
> What I was saying - that quality does not necessarily correlate with quantity.
> Russians and Swedes provide the proof.
That is a racist remark that I do not even wish to contend. You continue to
lump people into groups and judge them on that.
> > > Yeah. You have inquisitive mind. But also a very materialistic one.
> > > Rarely have I seen people who were as attracted to all things material as
> > > Russians. Masses' interest in foreign culture is mainly
in "shmotki", "kary"
> > > and "vyjebat' etu amrikanskuyu tyolku".
> > > I would argue that those of us who take interest in Russia are much more
> > > aware of what's going on in your country, compared to even those Russians
> > > living here in the USA knowledge and understanding of America.
>
> > Well, these are people that you meet.
> > 'Tell me who your friends are, and I will tell who you are!'
> > since you like quotations. :)
>
> Every society has people of all walks of life. There have always existed
> quite intense intellectual elite in Russia (at least in Moscow and SPB).
> But I am not talking about elites. Statistically speaking, my observations
> above correctly reflect Russian crowd mentality, don't they, Anton?
No, your observations are shallow. You never understood the sould of the
Russian people.
> > Stalin's administrators are all either dead or nearly dead now.
> > It's too late to punish them.
>
> No delo ih zhivet!
>
> And that's why the threads like this keep popping up every hour of the day
> in all Russian chat-rooms.
They are a loud minority.
> Take care, Anton.
> You've got eyes. It's up to you to open 'em and see.
>
> arthur_k
>
Don't be prejudiced. You seem to be getting better, though. :)
arth...@my-dejanews.com
No, I haven't been majoring in Russian history. I'm a techie and a
world traveler. I am an agnostic with no religious affiliation whatsoever.
I traveled many times to Russia, married a Moscow girl,
brought her here, learned a lot about your country and have a
love-hate relationship with Russia. I love Russian humor, Russian
language and literature. I hate Russian racism, narrow nationalism,
sudden outbursts of brutality, disrespect for the rule of law and
LAGERNOYE crowd mentality.
This little discussion is getting a bit too mushy for my taste.
We keep chewing the same thing over and over again, with no chance
of resolving our differences. I've been thinking, why is that?
Probably our life experiences define most of what we're able or
unable to see. If you've come to live in the USA, than you'll do OK.
You're young, so realities and ideas which freely flow in our country
will find their way to your mind and to your heart. Gradually, your
Russian group identity will start dissipating: it will get replaced with
healthy respect for individual rights, and you'll become an American.
Then, I hope, you will understand better many o'things which I am trying
(in vain) to tell you today.
Take care of yourself and keep your eyes open.
arthur_k
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---
L.Gordeev
On Sat, 8 May 1999 arth...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> This thing is getting too long, and I have to work for living.
> So, I'll skip the chewing gum and focus on a few points I think are important.
Hmmm, it's time to take a look .......
> If Russia wants to be considered a civilized modern society, she
> has to finally realize that EVERY TIME RACISM RAISES ITS UGLY FACE ON YOUR
> SIDE and Russians do not confront it, the visions of pogroms, both before and
> after the revolution pop up in the minds of those people who know Russian
> history.
?????
Since the end of WWII, RACISM RAISED ITS UGLY FACE only after the collapse
of SU. And not in Russia. Also note that in Germany Nazi propaganda is
prohibited by the law, so every legal piece of Nazi literature being
distributed here (in German!) is being made in USA (sometimes in Canada).
Besides, speaking in geopolitically correct terms, porgoms weren't Russian
business. Ah, btw, should the last passage suggest that you know Russian
history?
> I've been in Russia
> many times, and this common acceptance of racism always stroke me as a
> bizarre side of a Russian character.
I've been almost everywhere and strongly disagree. For the sake of
comparison, you should visit Israel first. Btw the least racist state I've
seen so far is Mauritius (an island next to Madagaskar).
[Sorry, too lazy and disappointed to read the rest of those few points.]
L.G
I.Dickov
> You prefer to call it political correctness, thus diminishing the true
> uglinness of the ingrained Russian xenophobia and racism.
Right. I think, the Russians believe that they have a special
"soul" and that they are "chosen". Sounds familiar?
> -- USA does not have a history of a church-state, which is what
Russia has
> been through almost all of its history. One nation -- one faith
(anybody of
> a religion different from Russian orthodoxy have been
called "nechestiviye",
Yeah, it's something close to "goyim", right?
As for "one nation -- one faith", maybe, Russia should
learn how to deal with other religions from Israel.
> pretty much like in Iran today). -- Russia has never had a civil
society.
Yes, agree, they must learn how to be civilized from Brighton Beach,
or from American inner cities.
> That's why that country provided a natural soil for communism to
take such a
> strong root -- collectivism of "obschina"
The Soviet collective farms are much closer to the kibbutzs, not
the "obschinas". It's known to everybody.
> Historically
> Russian mentality has always been a xenophobic one. Jews, with their
easily
> distinguishable traditional appearances were just the perfect target
for the
> GOVERNMENT SPONSORED anti-semitism.
Yea, I heard some rumors that the Russian goverment paid big bucks to
anyone who could prove himself as a true anti-semite.
> -- As Raymond Aron wrote: "Racism is the
> snobbery of the poor". That's what the Russians were, are and most
probably
> will be (with their attitudes) in the forseeable future -- poor.
You are showing them a good example of how a person shouldn't be
xenophobic, racistic, and nationalistic.
Seriously, I suspect that you are a Nazi who tries to intensify
national/racial/religious and other tensions between different
groups of people.
> arthur_k
--
I.Dickov