Re: [Xnews] newsguy website issues

[Ivan Shmakov]

>>>>> Mike Dee <mik...@emteedee.invalid> writes:

[Cross-posting to news:soc.culture.russian. Just in case.]

[...]

> I'm able to view that 2nd word - it's in Russian, so can't decipher
> it (but if the 1st word was anything to go by...)

Well, it's a well-known obscenity, roughly meaning "to speak" in
Russian. (Which makes the pair given somewhat "unwarranted" in
a way. It's possible that yet another obscene word was actually
intended there, which is a noun, not a verb, and indeed couples
well with the German word given, /and/ differs by nothing more
than two letters from the second word.)

[...]

--
FSF associate member #7257

[Ivan Shmakov]

>>>>> Ted S <fe...@hughes.spam> writes:

[Cross-posting to news:soc.culture.russian again, as the
subject being discussed arguably fits there much better.]

[…]

FWIW, it looks like a decent knowledge of, well, indecent
Russian.

> The more precise forms I'd have a tendency to mix up.

Well, my point is that the words ending in -ть are (generally?)
verbs, while the word (I believe) you intended to use is a noun,
and is a “portmanteau” of one another word you mention, and
конец — which means “[the] end” in Russian.

Also to note is that the words ending in -ец are (generally?)
nouns. Check, for instance:

http://ru.wiktionary.org/wiki/-ец
http://ru.wiktionary.org/wiki/-ть

(Though I guess that I may have to translate these into the
respective http://en.wiktionary.org/ pages.)

> I was really just using Russian to force the post to go out in
> Unicode, since the previous poster was using Xnews.

It isn't that I've missed the point; I'm not that dense.
(Hopefully.)

[tlvp]

On Fri, 24 May 2013 19:25:37 +0000, Ivan Shmakov wrote:

> ... words ending in -ть are (generally?)
> verbs, ...

Certainly *at best* "generally", rather than "always", if the word for
"mother" ends as I think I remember it does. Мать, нет :-) ?

Cheers, -- tlvp
--
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.

[Ivan Shmakov]

>>>>> tlvp <mPiOsUcB...@att.net> writes:
>>>>> On Fri, 24 May 2013 19:25:37 +0000, Ivan Shmakov wrote:

>> ... words ending in -ть are (generally?) verbs, ...

> Certainly *at best* “generally”, rather than “always”, if the word
> for “mother” ends as I think I remember it does. Мать, нет :-) ?

That's correct. Consider, however, [1], which lists some 5801
words ending in -ть, — all being verbs.

[1] https://ru.wiktionary.org/wiki/Категория:Глаголы,_спряжение_1a

[Ted S.]

On Fri, 24 May 2013 19:25:37 +0000, Ivan Shmakov wrote:

> Well, my point is that the words ending in -яПНяПН are (generally?) verbs,

> while the word (I believe) you intended to use is a noun, and is a

> "portmanteau" of one another word you mention, and яПНяПНяПНяПНяПН -- which

> means "[the] end" in Russian.

яПН яПНяПНяПНяПН яПНяПНяПНяПНяПНяПНяПН яПНяПНяПНяПН яПНяПНяПНяПНяПНяПНяПНяПНяПНяПН яПНяПНяПНяПНяПНяПН, яПНяПНяПНяПНяПН яПН яПНяПНяПН яПНяПНяПНяПНяПНяПН яПНяПНяПНяПНяПНяПНяПН яПНяПНяПНяПНяПНяПН
яПН яПНяПНяПНяПНяПНяПН яПНяПН-яПНяПНяПНяПНяПНяПН. яПНяПНяПНяПН яПН яПНяПНяПН, яПНяПНяПН яПН яПНяПНяПНяПНяПН яПНяПНяПНяПН яПНяПНяПНяПНяПНяПНяПН *яПНяПНяПН*.

--
Ted S.
fedya at hughes dot net
Now blogging at http://justacineast.blogspot.com

[vg4cysss7001]

In article <87d2sg9o...@violet.siamics.net>, Ivan Shmakov
<onei...@gmail.com> writes

>>>>>> Ted S <fe...@hughes.spam> writes:
>
> [Cross-posting to news:soc.culture.russian again, as the
> subject being discussed arguably fits there much better.]
>
>[…]
>
> FWIW, it looks like a decent knowledge of, well, indecent
> Russian.
>
> > The more precise forms I'd have a tendency to mix up.
>

> Well, my point is that the words ending in -?? are (generally?)

> verbs, while the word (I believe) you intended to use is a noun,
> and is a “portmanteau” of one another word you mention, and

> ????? — which means “[the] end” in Russian.
>
> Also to note is that the words ending in -?? are (generally?)
> nouns. Check, for instance:
>
>http://ru.wiktionary.org/wiki/-??
>http://ru.wiktionary.org/wiki/-??

[I cannot do Cyrillic in this client :-(]

... and, for example, the word for 'father'.

>
> (Though I guess that I may have to translate these into the
> respective http://en.wiktionary.org/ pages.)
>
> > I was really just using Russian to force the post to go out in
> > Unicode, since the previous poster was using Xnews.

Your (Ivan's) post came through in UTF-8, so I had to launch a
browser in order to see the "special" characters.

>
> It isn't that I've missed the point; I'm not that dense.
> (Hopefully.)
>

--

Misha
Free on-line, off-site backups?
<https://mozy.com/?ref=UK45Y5>

[Ivan Shmakov]

>>>>> Ted S <fe...@hughes.spam> writes:
>>>>> On Fri, 24 May 2013 19:25:37 +0000, Ivan Shmakov wrote:

[I've kept the cross-post.]

>> Well, my point is that the words ending in -ть are (generally?)

>> verbs, while the word (I believe) you intended to use is a noun, and

>> is a “portmanteau” of one another word you mention, and конец —

>> which means “[the] end” in Russian.

> Я знаю русский язук достаточно хорошо, чтобы я мог совсем неплохо
> читать и писать по-русски.

Nice to see that! Please note, however, that совсем doesn't
seem to quite fit this context (was совсем неплохо intended to
mean “quite well,” or?) OTOH, without it, я мог becomes a tad
superfluous, and seems to make one sound like foreigner.
Hence, I'd omit both of those. (But perhaps I'm oversensitive
on the subject.)

(And, well, it's язык, not язук.)

> Дело в том, что я плохо знаю русский *мат*.

My point is that the словообразование is the same for either.

Consider, e. g.: читать, писать, and also говорить, стоять,
летать, etc., — don't you see the pattern? And, OTOH, — конец,
молодец, отец, etc.

[Ivan Shmakov]

>>>>> vg4cysss7001 <127@[127.0.0.1]> writes:
>>>>> Ivan Shmakov <onei...@gmail.com> writes

>> Also to note is that the words ending in -ец are (generally?)
>> nouns.

[...]

> [I cannot do Cyrillic in this client :-(]

I don't want to sound like Jeff, but I'd still suggest you to
try another newsreader. (Or at least to file a bug report
against the one you use currently.)

You see, in Russia, one has to use non-ASCII characters all the
time (and so in Greece, Japan, etc.) And developing a
newsreader effectively suitable only for the "American" Usenet
doesn't seem like a particularly good idea to me.

> ... and, for example, the word for 'father'.

... Which is a noun, and thus fits the rule above.

[...]

[Ted S.]

On Mon, 27 May 2013 11:08:55 +0000, Ivan Shmakov wrote:

> (And, well, it's язык, not язук.)

I've got the Ы and У right next to each other on the keyboard, which is
Qwerty with the Cyrillic letters mapped mostly to their Latin phonetic
equivalents. Remembering where I've put the uncommon letters that don't
have equivalents, like the Ю, is a pain, but nowhere near as bad as
trying to remember the Soviet keyboard layout. :-) So that was
definitely a typo. I'll admit to never quite grasping the nuances of
how much better or worse неплохо is compared to хорошо.

On the bright side, I always had difficulty remembering when to use тоже
and when to use также. But since you didn't correct me I must have used
the correct one. :-)

[Ivan Shmakov]

>>>>> Ted S <fe...@hughes.spam> writes:
>>>>> On Mon, 27 May 2013 11:08:55 +0000, Ivan Shmakov wrote:

[Still keeping the cross-post.]

>> (And, well, it's язык, not язук.)

> I've got the Ы and У right next to each other on the keyboard, which
> is Qwerty with the Cyrillic letters mapped mostly to their Latin
> phonetic equivalents. Remembering where I've put the uncommon
> letters that don't have equivalents, like the Ю, is a pain, but
> nowhere near as bad as trying to remember the Soviet keyboard layout.

Well, as Artemy Lebedev explains in his ководство.ру [1], the
“Soviet” keyboard layout was actually invented in late XIX in
USA. Surely, as the early Soviet orthography reform discarded a
bunch of letters from the alphabet, so was changed the layout.
Yet to this day it looks similar to the original (USA) one.

[1] http://kovodstvo.ru/sections/105/

> :-) So that was definitely a typo. I'll admit to never quite
> grasping the nuances of how much better or worse неплохо is compared
> to хорошо.

I believe that the difference is quite the same as between
“not bad” and “good” (thus the latter is generally better.)

> On the bright side, I always had difficulty remembering when to use
> тоже and when to use также.

FWIW, [2] mentions that также can be used to form composite
(compound?) conjunctions (as in: а также, и также, но также =
and also, but also), while тоже has no such use.

Also, [3] mentions that тоже may be used in derogatory sentences
(as in: Тоже мне знаток! — Yeah, another know-it-all! — note
that знаток has no pejorative connotations per se), etc.

And the English wiktionary gives one more rule to consider [4].

[2] http://ru.wiktionary.org/wiki/также
[3] http://ru.wiktionary.org/wiki/тоже
[4] http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%B5#Usage_notes

> But since you didn't correct me I must have used the correct one.
> :-)

Huh? news:tzl0aey...@justacineast.motzarella.org doesn't
seem to mention either?

[Nun the Wizer]

Ivan Shmakov <onei...@gmail.com> writes

>>>>>> vg4cysss7001 <127@[127.0.0.1]> writes:
>>>>>> Ivan Shmakov <onei...@gmail.com> writes
>

> >> Also to note is that the words ending in -0 > >> nouns.

>
>[...]
>
> > [I cannot do Cyrillic in this client :-(]
>
> I don't want to sound like Jeff, but I'd still suggest you to
> try another newsreader.

I use Pan when on Linux and, sometimes, Dialog on Windoze.

> (Or at least to file a bug report
> against the one you use currently.)
>

Development stopped some years ago :-(
Oh, the evils of Kapitalism! :-)

> You see, in Russia, one has to use non-ASCII characters all the
> time (and so in Greece, Japan, etc.)

Sure. I use KOI8-R and UTF-8 in browsers.
(I'll be connecting in Domodedovo about this time tomorrow.)

> And developing a
> newsreader effectively suitable only for the "American" Usenet
> doesn't seem like a particularly good idea to me.

Turnpike was/is a British product.

>
> > ... and, for example, the word for 'father'.
>
> ... Which is a noun, and thus fits the rule above.
>
>[...]
>

--

Nun the Wizer

[Shmuel Metz]

In <87k3mk7...@violet.siamics.net>, on 05/27/2013
at 11:26 AM, Ivan Shmakov <onei...@gmail.com> said:

>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Good.

> I don't want to sound like Jeff,

You don't; see above.

> You see, in Russia, one has to use non-ASCII characters all the
> time (and so in Greece, Japan, etc.) And developing a
> newsreader effectively suitable only for the "American" Usenet
> doesn't seem like a particularly good idea to me.

That's a rather naïve perception of the American Usenet; RFC 5536
mandates MIME support.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT <http://patriot.net/~shmuel>

Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action. I reserve the
right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail. Reply to
domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do not
reply to spam...@library.lspace.org

[Ivan Shmakov]

>>>>> Shmuel (Seymour J ) Metz <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> writes:
>>>>> Ivan Shmakov <onei...@gmail.com> said:

[...]

>> You see, in Russia, one has to use non-ASCII characters all the time
>> (and so in Greece, Japan, etc.) And developing a newsreader
>> effectively suitable only for the “American” Usenet doesn't seem
>> like a particularly good idea to me.

> That's a rather naïve perception of the American Usenet;

... They say that in US, one may drive three thousand miles and
never leave English. Indeed, I can understand such an attitude:
from where I live, I can travel three thousand miles without
leaving Russian — in either direction. But it makes me think
that those living in Europe would be somewhat more inclined to
learn — and use — languages other than their native one. Which,
if applied to Usenet, means proper MIME and Unicode support.

Thus, say, Turnpike in effect doesn't seem “British enough” (by
which I mean the market being targeted, and not the origins) for
me, as that would imply the ability to handle articles in
different languages and encodings (including UTF-8), which it
seems to lack.

> RFC 5536 mandates MIME support.

Unfortunately, an RFC isn't a magic spell scroll to prevent
subscribers from using any of the non-compliant software, ever.

[Nun the Wizer]

Ivan Shmakov <onei...@gmail.com> writes

>>>>>> Shmuel (Seymour J ) Metz <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> writes:
>>>>>> Ivan Shmakov <onei...@gmail.com> said:
>
>[...]
>
> >> You see, in Russia, one has to use non-ASCII characters all the time
> >> (and so in Greece, Japan, etc.) And developing a newsreader
> >> effectively suitable only for the “American” Usenet doesn't seem
> >> like a particularly good idea to me.
>
> > That's a rather naïve perception of the American Usenet;
>
> ... They say that in US, one may drive three thousand miles and
> never leave English.

I travelled from Philadelphia to San Diego on the Greyhound bus
in 1980 and encountered the Spanish language on frequent occasions.

> Indeed, I can understand such an attitude:
> from where I live, I can travel three thousand miles without
> leaving Russian — in either direction.

But, to be fair, there are many other languages, besides
Russian, in Russia, such as Tatarski and Bashkiri.
(BTW, "privet" from Rostov-na-Dony.)

> But it makes me think
> that those living in Europe would be somewhat more inclined to
> learn — and use — languages other than their native one.

The British ISTM are the least inclined, but, again, they have
to cross the "English" (sic) Channel to meet "foreigners" in their own
countries. Whereas said "foreigners" merely have to drive across each
others' borders.

> Which,
> if applied to Usenet, means proper MIME and Unicode support.
>
> Thus, say, Turnpike in effect doesn't seem “British enough” (by
> which I mean the market being targeted, and not the origins) for
> me, as that would imply the ability to handle articles in
> different languages and encodings (including UTF-8), which it
> seems to lack.

Point taken, but:
a) it was developed in the 1990's and
b) is the most RFC-compliant client I have encountered. (Hence, maybe
the standards had not sufficiently evolved at the time?)

>
> > RFC 5536 mandates MIME support.
>
> Unfortunately, an RFC isn't a magic spell scroll to prevent
> subscribers from using any of the non-compliant software, ever.
>

Reminds me of Sony Betamax :-)
--
Nun the Wizer

[Shmuel Metz]

In <87li6w1...@violet.siamics.net>, on 05/30/2013

at 08:28 PM, Ivan Shmakov <onei...@gmail.com> said:

> ... They say that in US, one may drive three thousand miles and
> never leave English.

I can walk to restaurants where the waiters don't understand English
well. Unfortunately, I don't speak either Korean or Spanish.

> Unfortunately, an RFC isn't a magic spell scroll to prevent
> subscribers from using any of the non-compliant software, ever.

That doesn't mean that the "American Usenet" (whatever that is) isn't
affected by the standards, or that there are a higher percentage of
nyekulturniy users in the USA than in Russia. Both counties have
people who follow the rules and people who don't.