Russia Warns Against NATO Taking in Former Soviet Ukraine and Georgia
captain.
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2006/06/08/ukrainenato.shtml
Russia warned against NATO taking in the former Soviet republics of Ukraine
and Georgia, saying such a colossal geopolitical shift would threaten
relations, the AFP news agency reported.
"Membership in NATO for countries like Ukraine or Georgia would mean a
colossal geopolitical shift," Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said
during questioning in the State Duma, the lower house of the Russian
parliament.
"We evaluate all possible consequences first and foremost from the point of
view of the national interest of Russia, interests in the area of security,
our economic interests and interests in relations with countries which
relate to Russia in one way or another," Lavrov said.
The Russian parliament, often a mouthpiece for the Kremlin, passed a
resolution Wednesday which stated: "Ukraine's accession to the military bloc
will lead to very negative consequences for relations between our fraternal
peoples."
The statements came as 200 U.S. troops, who are in the predominantly
Russian-speaking southern Ukrainian region of Crimea to prepare for NATO
exercises due to start next Wednesday, remained stuck in their barracks, The
Guardian reported. Protesters greeted their arrival last week with
barricades and slogans reading "occupiers go home!", and reportedly harass
them if they step outside the military base.
The marine reservists are in the region to prepare for the Sea Breeze 2006
NATO maneuvers in the Black Sea, intended as a key sign of the West's slow
embrace of Ukraine. The Crimean parliament declared the region a "NATO-free
zone" on Tuesday, a move it said was intended to support the anti-NATO
protests.
Brent Byers, a spokesman for the U.S. embassy in Kiev, said the unarmed
troops, who are working on the Feodosiya military base's plumbing and other
infrastructure, could not leave the barracks. "They are safe and sound and
anxious to get on with their work," he said, adding they were keeping a low
profile to avoid inciting tensions. "We really don't understand what is
going on down there," he said. "They would like to get out to enjoy the
restaurants and buy some souvenirs."
Ukraine's NATO ambitions are long-standing and were entertained by President
Viktor Yushchenko's predecessor, Leonid Kuchma, who was unseated in the
so-called orange revolution in November 2004. But pro-western protests that
ushered Yushchenko into power have heightened Kremlin sensitivities about
losing influence over former Soviet satellites.
vello
captain. kirjutas:
Warshaw pact to NATO. Two countries more or less will not make so big
difference.
Ichi Nissan-Shigo
"vello" <vell...@hot.ee> wrote in message
news:1150894700.9...@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Russia will have to do another Molotov-Ribbentrop deal to create
Ukraine-Belarus-Poland-Baltics buffer zone.
If they keep going around black-mailing countries, Ukraine probably will go
to NATO. Like everything else, Russia can't stop it except by invasion.
Right now Russia is not treating Georgia very nicely. It's only natural they
would turn to NATO.
lora...@cs.com
Ichi Nissan-Shigo wrote:
> Russia will have to do another Molotov-Ribbentrop deal to create
> Ukraine-Belarus-Poland-Baltics buffer zone.
Only if NATO disappears, can that happen.
> If they keep going around black-mailing countries, Ukraine probably will go
> to NATO. Like everything else, Russia can't stop it except by invasion.
As recent development have shown, there are limits to military
projections. Ukraine could probably repulse any foreseeable russian
efforts itself. Probably Georgia too, for that matter.
> Right now Russia is not treating Georgia very nicely. It's only natural they
> would turn to NATO.
And the Baltics too. We like to help people.
Ichi Nissan-Shigo
<lora...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:1150936937.0...@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
The latest is that Russia wants to eliminate most exemptions and go to a one
year term of conscription. It will take at least a year just to teach a
Russian not to kill his fellow soldiers.
That have to do conscription because no Russians want to sign up for the
fictitious all-volunteer Russian army. Maybe they could do a French foreign
legion thing...foreigners sign up and get Russian citizenship.
But if you want something you have to give something. What will Russia give
Ukraine for not joining NATO ...besides threats?
MTRP™
> captain. kirjutas:
> > Russia Warns Against NATO Taking in Former Soviet Ukraine and Georgia
> > http://www.mosnews.com/news/2006/06/08/ukrainenato.shtml
> > Russia warned against NATO taking in the former Soviet republics of Ukraine
> > and Georgia, saying such a colossal geopolitical shift would threaten
> > relations, the AFP news agency reported.
> > Viktor Yushchenko's predecessor, Leonid Kuchma, who was unseated in the
> > so-called orange revolution in November 2004. But pro-western protests that
> > ushered Yushchenko into power have heightened Kremlin sensitivities about
> > losing influence over former Soviet satellites.
> Oh, I think "great geopolitical shift" was East Europe's move from
> Warshaw pact to NATO. Two countries more or less will not make so big
> difference.
Deadly wrongo. Georgia is for fun, but Ukraine is vital. Cuz NATO
expansion to Ukraine will significantly increase a danger of
"restricted" US-Russian nuclear war. It's plain georocket sci rather
than politics. Cuz with Ukraine in enemy's hands Russian strategic
early warning system will be damaged and more inclined to erroneously
send Topol-M's to nuke NYC in response to fake US attack.
vello
MTRP™ kirjutas:
It happens all the time that one state or group of states have a border
with other - why it must result nuclear war? France and England have
both nukes but I never heard that someone is in trouble with that. Why
russia can't just live like normal nation?
MTRP™
Cuz there is Entente Cordiale between France and UK (after all those
messy hundreds war years, that is). By contrast at the moment we've got
merely Strange Peace between Russia and USA.
vello
MTRP™ wrote:
> vello wrote:
> > It happens all the time that one state or group of states have a border
> > with other - why it must result nuclear war? France and England have
> > both nukes but I never heard that someone is in trouble with that. Why
> > russia can't just live like normal nation?
>
> Cuz there is Entente Cordiale between France and UK (after all those
> messy hundreds war years, that is). By contrast at the moment we've got
> merely Strange Peace between Russia and USA.
So let's look for "cordiale" relations between all countries, not
looking for enemies! btw, I'm pretty sure for US Russia is not even in
top ten of "problem states" - nuclear war is in fact not real
opportunity and on economical battlefield bigger European states,
China, Japan, India, Oil States and Indonesia-Taiwan-South Korea are
much more dangerous players.
MTRP™
> MTRP™ wrote:
> > vello wrote:
> > > It happens all the time that one state or group of states have a border
> > > with other - why it must result nuclear war? France and England have
> > > both nukes but I never heard that someone is in trouble with that. Why
> > > russia can't just live like normal nation?
> > Cuz there is Entente Cordiale between France and UK (after all those
> > messy hundreds war years, that is). By contrast at the moment we've got
> > merely Strange Peace between Russia and USA.
> So let's look for "cordiale" relations between all countries, not
> looking for enemies! btw, I'm pretty sure for US Russia is not even in
> top ten of "problem states"
But USA is. And it's not cordial at all.
> - nuclear war is in fact not real
> opportunity and on economical battlefield bigger European states,
> China, Japan, India, Oil States and Indonesia-Taiwan-South Korea are
> much more dangerous players.
You still don't get the point. Only Russia can make nuclear war to USA
- the rest is irrelevant. What's more important those two can start it
anytime through computer error. They can stop it too - but not sooner
as the error is spotted. Thtat's why I'm talking about "restricted"
nuclear war.
vello
MTRP™ wrote:
> vello wrote:
> > MTRP™ wrote:
> > > vello wrote:
> > > > It happens all the time that one state or group of states have a border
> > > > with other - why it must result nuclear war? France and England have
> > > > both nukes but I never heard that someone is in trouble with that. Why
> > > > russia can't just live like normal nation?
> > > Cuz there is Entente Cordiale between France and UK (after all those
> > > messy hundreds war years, that is). By contrast at the moment we've got
> > > merely Strange Peace between Russia and USA.
> > So let's look for "cordiale" relations between all countries, not
> > looking for enemies! btw, I'm pretty sure for US Russia is not even in
> > top ten of "problem states"
>
> But USA is. And it's not cordial at all.
I told "for US". Say, for Estonia Russia for sure is a "problem state"
:-) But anyway, world dreamed by yanks are not the worst one may
imagine. They are agressive sometimes but not imperialistic - and,
wrong or not - I think both Afganistan and Iraq lost not so much with
Taleban and Saddam. Free elections under UN control in Afganistan and
Iraq would be the best solution, unhappily places are a bit undeveloped
for that, I'm afraid.
>
> > - nuclear war is in fact not real
> > opportunity and on economical battlefield bigger European states,
> > China, Japan, India, Oil States and Indonesia-Taiwan-South Korea are
> > much more dangerous players.
>
> You still don't get the point. Only Russia can make nuclear war to USA
> - the rest is irrelevant. What's more important those two can start it
> anytime through computer error. They can stop it too - but not sooner
> as the error is spotted. Thtat's why I'm talking about "restricted"
> nuclear war.
There are five states - mentioned plus china, France, UK, who are
absolutely secure thanks to their nuclear capability. Well Russia and
US have them more, but all they have enough to make any agression
unimaginable. for "computer mistake", it may be was real 30 years ago,
but not for now. All they know that no one from five is not interested
in nuclear war so missile may be just accidental. About "restricted" it
is 1-2% possible that US would use mininukes for bunker boosting
somewhere - but surely not against a state with nukes.
Ichi Nissan-Shigo
"MTRPT" <Mir.To...@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:1150995781....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
vello wrote:
The Great Prophet has already made it quite clear. Nuke war is for India and
China but it's still 20+ years away.
Restricted nuclear war is a Topolskian term i.e. stoopit. Basically
restricted is shoot yer nukes until you run out.
Even tiny Israel has 200 nukes with which to conduct restricted nuclear war.
You can destroy a lot even in a restricted scenario. Restricted war against
Israel is only restricted because you will run out of targets after two
hydrogen bombs. Tel Aviv, Haifa, three if you count Jerusalem.
MTRP™
> unimaginable. for "computer mistake", it may be was real 30 years ago,
> but not for now.
Mucho wrongo. Old SU-US parity is lost. With Ukraine being lost too
Russian (i.e. x-SU) early warning system will be handicapped and there
might be difficult to immediately verify if this or that computer
warning is virtual or real. Such situations ALWAYS occur regardless of
political situation. Therefore probability of Russian inadequate
reaction will be higher. Why can't you read carefully before sending
irrelevant rebuttals?
Ichi Nissan-Shigo
Maybe the USA will sell them anti-missile system?
They can always build a wall to close in the Ukraine "ghetto".
J. Anderson
"Ichi Nissan-Shigo" <Heinz_Z...@OdinDvaTree.org> wrote in message
news:bxAmg.1078$uZ5....@fe12.lga...
> Even tiny Israel has 200 nukes
Tiny Finland has only one. It has been camouflaged into a mausoleum and
placed in the Red Square.
Oops, I guess I wasn't supposed to mention this with all these Russians
around. Now let's see, how do I delete this message before it g
Estland
warning"
captain. kirjutas:
> begin 666 mn_file.gif
> M1TE&.#EA$@`1`-4``/___\S,S&UM;<C(R-;6UGEY>7]_?[>WM[V]O<+"PM_?
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> M=&EI:5145%=75U)24E!04&QL;&)B8G9V=L# P$Y.3FAH:'!P<%E96:.CHW-S
> M<ZRLK-[>WFMK:U]?7UQ<7$Q,3/?W]P``````````````````````````````
> M`````````````````````````````````"'Y! ``````+ `````2`!$```:@
> M0(!P2"P:C\BD$N P6#"*Q=)!# VD2&I@&P!<(BM-HZ)X#0T#AEI=!$U40TM"
> M5*C;,Z4/J=%0"#$(!4DB`!P30@4'#ER,6RD!&Q%"(1 &`0.8F9@G`1T"0AD0
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> ;%"X20@L#$@+7V-D"$@-#"PH$X>+C!%%"00`[
> `
> end
Estland
MTRP™
> [flush]
Hey Brookski your US GM asses got badly kicked by Ghana!
Ichi Nissan-Shigo
> Ichi Nissan-Shigo wrote:
>> [flush]
>
> Hey Brookski your US GM asses got badly kicked by Ghana!
>
Hey Castrato,
No one cares. Fooootball is for sissies. That's why ultra-masculine Yanks
have little interest in it.
Anyway, 2-1 is hardly a poor showing. Too bad the Germans aren't as good at
making Airbus planes as kicking a little ball around an empty field.
I hear the Germans are responsible for screwing up the A380. I hear they
accidentally confused the plans for the smart car with the A380 and ended up
with the dumb aircraft (patent pending).
Don't feel bad though, the Euros have found that EU wine is excellent for
cleaning toilets.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5105176.stm
Ichi Nissan-Shigo
"Estland" <Raul....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1151004892.5...@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> The Russians have a saying about this "one hundred first Chinese last
> warning"
>
I thought it was "step over this line, I dare ya".
vello
My point was a bit different. Russia is no more SU, Empire of Evil. So
nobody thinks that Russia may go to nuclear attack. For Russia himself,
Putin (good or not good guy) have much better understanding of Western
world then genseks had, so also Putin knows for 100% that no missile
will fly towards Russia. He speaks about "dancing Topol-M" and other
things for inner audience but de facto both US and Russia had lost much
more then half of their former nuclear ability - no need to vaste both
dollars or roubles. Nuclear trouble may arise again only in one case -
if China will pretend to be a new SU. But it seems not so real, coz
chinese are 90% tied to West - and West to China - almost all consumer
goods in West come from China and correspondendely almost all salaries
in China will be payed with Western dollars.
MTRP™
> "MTRPT" wrote:
> > Ichi Nissan-Shigo wrote:
> >> [flush]
> > Hey Brookski your US GM asses got badly kicked by Ghana!
> Hey Castrato,
> No one cares. Fooootball is for sissies. That's why ultra-masculine Yanks
> have little interest in it.
LOL Fago. They have but they can't. This is called impotence - blame US
GM junk food!
MTRP™
Your point sux. Evil Empire, Putin and China are irrelevant. Computers
decide who's flying why and where and even a couple of Topol-Ms can
anytime knock out USA. It's plain rocket sci.
Ichi Nissan-Shigo
vello wrote:
In a way this is true. Russia is not an economic powerhouse. It's more like
economic outhouse. It doesn't export much to USA thus it has little to lose
by nuking the US. Beyond Moscow or maybe St.Pete, Russia is a toilet.
Russia is little more than a raw materials stockroom. You get the basic shit
there, bring it home and turn it into something useful, but nothing useful
comes from Russia directly.
Ichi Nissan-Shigo
MTRPT wrote:
> vello wrongo:
> > unimaginable. for "computer mistake", it may be was real 30 years ago,
> > but not for now.
>
> Mucho wrongo. Old SU-US parity is lost. With Ukraine being lost too
> Russian (i.e. x-SU) early warning system will be handicapped and there
> might be difficult to immediately verify if this or that computer
> warning is virtual or real. Such situations ALWAYS occur regardless of
> political situation. Therefore probability of Russian inadequate
> reaction will be higher. Why can't you read carefully before sending
> irrelevant rebuttals?
My point was a bit different. Russia is no more SU, Empire of Evil. So
nobody thinks that Russia may go to nuclear attack.
What Russian strategic interests are threatened? Russia will not launch
nukes just because GB's dog shits on the Kremlin's carpet.
For Russia himself,
Putin (good or not good guy) have much better understanding of Western
world then genseks had, so also Putin knows for 100% that no missile
will fly towards Russia. He speaks about "dancing Topol-M" and other
things for inner audience but de facto both US and Russia had lost much
more then half of their former nuclear ability - no need to vaste both
dollars or roubles. Nuclear trouble may arise again only in one case -
if China will pretend to be a new SU. But it seems not so real, coz
chinese are 90% tied to West - and West to China - almost all consumer
goods in West come from China and correspondendely almost all salaries
in China will be payed with Western dollars.
*************************
True, China has absolutely no reason to nuke the USA. It's against their
interests. This presents a big dilemma for nationalistic face-saving
Chinese...they are itching to take back Taiwan but that will ruin relations
with their #1 customer, the USA. True, Nixon already consigned Taiwan to the
dustbin of history on his China trip. Chinese are better at eating fish
heads than international relations poker but I'm sure they are guessing what
would happen if they move on Taiwan.
OTOH, Russia is an economic pygmie. It has little to lose by nuking
people...although the only city where Russia's rich live, Moscow, would be
first to be vaporized. You can't bomb them back to the stone age because
they never left it.
MTRP™
> [flush]
Shaddup stupido, U R boring ...
vkar...@yahoo.com
How safe is California?
captain.
> Ichi Nissan-Shigo wrote:
>> [flush]
>
> Hey Brookski your US GM asses got badly kicked by Ghana!
>
i was beginning to think you were the only one in germany who was ignoring
the world cup.
captain.
<vkar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1151028400.2...@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
How safe is California?
- is it within range of north korea's new missle?
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
vkar...@yahoo.com
Oh yes. That's exactly what the North Koreans are aiming at:
California.
MTRP™
> "MTRPT" wrote:
> > Ichi Nissan-Shigo wrote:
> >> [flush]
> > Hey Brookski your US GM asses got badly kicked by Ghana!
> i was beginning to think
??? U R lying!
vello
MTRP™ wrote:
> vello wrongo:
> > unimaginable. for "computer mistake", it may be was real 30 years ago,
> > but not for now.
>
> Mucho wrongo. Old SU-US parity is lost. With Ukraine being lost too
> Russian (i.e. x-SU) early warning system will be handicapped
If you want to have early warning system you must have friends allowing
to build that system on their territory. Unhappily Russia is making no
attempts to make friends amoung neighbours, so they must just blame
himself, not nations cooperating in form of NATO.
Komin
today on the German satelite TV channel DW , which show
Ukrainian sailors and marines protesting against a full load of
American officers inside a bus .
the DW programe is called Europa .
The Ukrain navy has sold lots of torpedo-s and missiles to the
Chinese,
the Chinese has bought an empty shell Ukrain Aircraft Carrier ,
which is now placed in TianJin' s sea coast resort as a Tourist
attraction .
lora...@cs.com
Komin wrote:
> There is a report about this disturbance in the Crimea sea port
> today on the German satelite TV channel DW , which show
> Ukrainian sailors and marines protesting against a full load of
> American officers inside a bus .
>
> the DW programe is called Europa .
Your TV signal must have bounced off of Pluto and come back.. this is
old news.
But here is your reason, for educational purposes:
"Ukraine: Visit Of U.S. Naval Ship In Crimea Sparks Anti-NATO Protests
By Jan Maksymiuk
...
Two days later, Feodosiya residents, mobilized by local chapters of the
pro-Russia Party of Regions, the Natalya Vitrenko Bloc, as well as the
Russian Community of Crimea, began to picket the port. Displaying
anti-NATO slogans written in Russian, they are continuing to block the
U.S. cargo from getting to its destination.
...
'Russian Hand'
There are commentators in Ukraine who clearly see a "Russian hand"
behind what is taking place in Feodosiya. Historian Mykhaylo Kyrsenko
told RFE/RL's Ukrainian Service earlier this week that people in
Feodosiya have been lured into anti-NATO protests by pro-Russian
political forces to further Russian interests in Ukraine.
"Those who reject or block this [U.S.] aid are opposing Ukraine's
interests and serving another country. Which country? It is not
difficult to guess, once you see in what language they write their
posters with," Kyrsenko said. "Therefore, I would make a distinction
between these hapless, deceived people and the organizers of this
provocation."
Foreign Minister Tarasyuk suggested that the anti-NATO demonstration in
Feodosiya may be a cover for problems connected with the deployment of
a Russian naval force in another Crimean port, Simferopol.
"I have one piece of advice for the initiators of this provocation --
they should turn their attention to the disgrace of the free use of
land plots and buildings by units of the Russian Black Sea Fleet in
violation of Ukrainian law and bilateral agreements," Tarasyuk said."
Article at:
"http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2006/06/mil-060601-rferl03.htm"
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> There is a report about this disturbance in the Crimea sea port
> today on the German satelite TV channel DW , which show
> Ukrainian sailors and marines protesting against a full load of
> American officers inside a bus .
>
> the DW programe is called Europa .
>
Because the US did not get to complete rebuilding the barracks
at their training base?
>
> The Ukrain navy has sold lots of torpedo-s and missiles to the
> Chinese,
>
Are you complaining? Why?
>
> the Chinese has bought an empty shell Ukrain Aircraft Carrier ,
> which is now placed in TianJin' s sea coast resort as a Tourist
> attraction .
>
Is Nice! Have they turned it into a casino yet?
The US have a battleship (The Missouri) on display.
I think the Japanese have turned the QEW II into a casino.
There is sunken warship that is part of the memorial at Pearl Harbour.
So what does Russia have on display? Some sunken nuclear submarines,
or perhaps the Kursk?
>
vkar...@yahoo.com
No. The pictures of the world-renown Chornobyl nuclear reactor in
North-Western Ukraine.
Plus the remains of the airplane with 78 Israeli and Russian civilians,
accidentally downed by the Ukrainian military exercises:
/////////////////////////
http://english.people.com.cn/english/200110/06/eng20011006_81654.html
Saturday, October 06, 2001
Ukraine Denies Shooting Down Russian Tu-154 Plane
Ukraine denied Friday any involvement of its anti-missile defense
system in Thursday's crash of a Russian Tu-154 airliner en route from
Israel's Tel Aviv to Novosibirsk in Russia's Far East.
Some foreign media reported that the plane was accidentally shot down
by a Ukrainian missile during military exercises on the Crimean
peninsula.
Ukrainian Defense Minister Aleksandr Kuzmuk said Friday that missiles
used in the exercise did not have the range to reach the plane. He said
the shooting was conducted in a range of from 20 to 40 kilometers. The
exercise was reportedly conducted at about 250 kilometers from the site
of the crash.
///////////////////////
http://english.people.com.cn/english/200110/13/eng20011013_82198.html
Saturday, October 13, 2001,
Ukraine Apologizes for Accidentally Shooting Down Russian Tu-154 Plane
Ukrainian Defense Minister Alexander Kuzmuk made an official apology
Saturday to families and relatives of those killed in the Russian
Tu-154 airliner crash on October 4.
A total of 78 people aboard the Russian Tu-154 airplane were killed
when the plane, en route from Tel Aviv to the Russian Siberian city of
Novosibirsk, exploded and plunged into the Black Sea coast off Russia.
////////////////////////////////////////////////
http://www.airdisaster.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-47972.html
Latest from Pravda.ru
ONLY WAR MISSILES FEEL FREE IN SKY OVER UKRAINE
An Israeli pilot made a sensational statement: he saw a surface-to-air
missile launched from a region near Ukrainian city of Dnepropetrovsk
against his plane. It is to be mentioned that earlier, on October 4,
2001 an exercise missile was launched from the Cape of Opuk in the
Crimea (Ukraine) against a Siberia airline's plane. Seventy eight
people were killed in the tragedy: 66 passengers (Israelis mostly) and
12 crew members. Problem of compensations to families of the killed is
not yet settled.
Press-secretary of Ukrainian Defense Ministry Konstantin Khivrenko
says, no missile launching exercise has been held within several past
days over Ukraine.
But the statement causes just smiles among people aware of the
situation. In both cases, when missiles hit non-military objects,
Ukrainian servicemen lied that military technique was not involved in
the catastrophes. As it turned out later, a missile launched 90 km from
the town of Brovarov near Kiev hit a nine-storey apartment house,
several people were killed. Former Ukrainian Defense Minister Kuzmuk
disposed of complete information about the tragedy, however he lied to
the people, servicemen were not guilty of the tragedy.
It is perfectly clear that missiles never start themselves. Information
came from some sources that exercises designed to repulse inimical
attacks were held near Dnepropetrovsk till July 6. Is not it possible
that the missile that nearly hit Israeli airline's Boeing-757 was
launched from same very area? What is going to be the reaction of the
Ukrainian government to the fact?
Alexander Gorobets
PRAVDA.Ru
Kiev. Ukraine
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/aeronews/avia_news_text.doc
Defense Minister Vladimir Shkidchenko on Sunday tendered his
resignation. The resignation was being considered by President Leonid
Kuchma, the Defense Ministry's press service said.
Kuchma appointed Shkidchenko, a former army general, last October to
replace Oleksandr Kuzmuk, who was fired after a Ukrainian missile
downed a Sibir passenger jet over the Black Sea.
///////////////////////////////
http://www.utro.ru/articles/2002070510122487579.shtml
Then Kuchma [commenting about the tragic deaths of 72 Israeli and
Russian civilians downed by Ukrainian military incompetence] said the
words that he will never be forgiven for: "...Let's not make a
tragedy out of this, if it was a mistake...".
///////////////////////////////
I also recall that at that time, one of the excuses that President of
Ukraine gave for this mistake in one of his speeches, given in a
perfect Russian, was that the written instructions for the usage of the
S-200 missiles were in a foreign language, which none of the Ukrainian
soldiers understood: Russian. I am not kidding!
Now, if Ukraine ever joins NATO and starts using American-made military
equipment with instructions written in English (which average Ukrainian
soldiers and officers understand a million times less than Russian),
only god knows how many hundreds of civilian planes will be downed in
the very first week...
No wonder the Crimeans are so opposed to Ukraine joining NATO. And no
wonder the US State Department declared in one of its official
statements: 'The last thing we need is a bunch of Ukrainians running
around with guns". Or missiles...
captain.
<vkar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1151043999.7...@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
avoiding my other post about hockey karla? :)
vkar...@yahoo.com
Remind me. If I have anything to add to that thread, I will.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
>
> I also recall that at that time, one of the excuses that President of
> Ukraine gave for this mistake in one of his speeches, given in a
> perfect Russian, was that the written instructions for the usage of the
> S-200 missiles were in a foreign language, which none of the Ukrainian
> soldiers understood: Russian. I am not kidding!
>
> Now, if Ukraine ever joins NATO and starts using American-made military
> equipment with instructions written in English (which average Ukrainian
> soldiers and officers understand a million times less than Russian),
> only god knows how many hundreds of civilian planes will be downed in
> the very first week...
>
> No wonder the Crimeans are so opposed to Ukraine joining NATO. And no
> wonder the US State Department declared in one of its official
> statements: 'The last thing we need is a bunch of Ukrainians running
> around with guns". Or missiles...
>
Great post vkarlamov. :)
You are of course aware that the Chernobyl reactor which caused the
great tragedy in Ukraine was a Russian design. Eh?
And that the russian TU-154 was at the far edge but still inside
the restricted area designated for the Ukrainian military exercises.
The air space was under Russian air control. So Russian controllers
let the plane into this restricted area. But also! it was at the far
edge of the reserved area, and really out of range of the SA200.
So there remain unresolved questions about just what brought down
the plane ???
Now are you able to provide any supporting evidence for that Kuchma
quote? Eh?
Even if he said it, 'in perfect Russian' , you must know that he
was a long time Soviet protegee and so would be expected to be
russified. But he was refering to the soldiers who are and were
not yet fully assimilated. :)
Finally do you have you evidence handy for your claim of an
official US State Department statement about Ukrainians running
around with gunns, especially since the US and Ukrainian forces
are going to be holding joint military exercises in Ukraine
later this year.
--
Rostyk
vkar...@yahoo.com
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj wrote:
> vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >
> > I also recall that at that time, one of the excuses that President of
> > Ukraine gave for this mistake in one of his speeches, given in a
> > perfect Russian, was that the written instructions for the usage of the
> > S-200 missiles were in a foreign language, which none of the Ukrainian
> > soldiers understood: Russian. I am not kidding!
> >
> > Now, if Ukraine ever joins NATO and starts using American-made military
> > equipment with instructions written in English (which average Ukrainian
> > soldiers and officers understand a million times less than Russian),
> > only god knows how many hundreds of civilian planes will be downed in
> > the very first week...
> >
> > No wonder the Crimeans are so opposed to Ukraine joining NATO. And no
> > wonder the US State Department declared in one of its official
> > statements: 'The last thing we need is a bunch of Ukrainians running
> > around with guns". Or missiles...
> >
> Great post vkarlamov. :)
> You are of course aware that the Chernobyl reactor which caused the
> great tragedy in Ukraine was a Russian design. Eh?
>
So what? The S-200 missile, which shot down the Russian-Israeli flight,
was also "a Russian design". The problem was not with the missile but
with the stupid and irresponsible Ukrainian commanders.
The same with the Chornobyl reactor. AFAIK, it is the same design that
has been working at many other Soviet-built realtors all over ex-USSR.
As I recall, it was a human error of the Chornobyl management that
caused the meltdown.
And yes, I do blame the Soviet leaders for irresponsibly building a
nuclear reactor west of the Dnieper River. I guess they forgot whom
they were dealing with. :)
>
> And that the russian TU-154 was at the far edge but still inside
> the restricted area designated for the Ukrainian military exercises.
> The air space was under Russian air control. So Russian controllers
> let the plane into this restricted area. But also! it was at the far
> edge of the reserved area, and really out of range of the SA200.
> So there remain unresolved questions about just what brought down
> the plane ???
>
Total inventions. Kuchma already took the responsibility for this
tragedy and fired his Defense Minister for this terrible mistake. Could
you please remind us where you got these garbage claims? Of course not.
You always post whatever fantasies come to your idiotic mind and never
provide any support for your inventions, so I will be very surprised if
you do this time.
>
> Finally do you have you evidence handy for your claim of an
> official US State Department statement about Ukrainians running
> around with gunns, especially since the US and Ukrainian forces
> are going to be holding joint military exercises in Ukraine
> later this year.
>
Gladly:
////////////
http://www.colorado.edu/ibs/PEC/johno/pub/cohen_issue.web.htm
James Rubin, U.S. State Department spokesperson, said that the last
thing that NATO needs is "a bunch of Ukrainians running around with
guns on their sides" (Andersen, M. (1999) Myths, bombs and
arrogance. Kyiv Post 27 May, p.1).
//////////////////////////////////////////////
lora...@cs.com
vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj wrote:
> > vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > And that the russian TU-154 was at the far edge but still inside
> > the restricted area designated for the Ukrainian military exercises.
> > The air space was under Russian air control. So Russian controllers
> > let the plane into this restricted area. But also! it was at the far
> > edge of the reserved area, and really out of range of the SA200.
> > So there remain unresolved questions about just what brought down
> > the plane ???
>
> Total inventions. Kuchma already took the responsibility for this
> tragedy and fired his Defense Minister for this terrible mistake. Could
> you please remind us where you got these garbage claims? Of course not.
> You always post whatever fantasies come to your idiotic mind and never
> provide any support for your inventions, so I will be very surprised if
> you do this time.
Yes.. total inventions.. but by your kremlin masters and you.
I commented on the incident the day after it happened.. noting that the
airliner was hit by missiles *beyong the operational range* of the
Ukranian systems.
Looking around for other possible sources, the only other source is
russian.
Squeek all you want.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
>
>>Finally do you have you evidence handy for your claim of an
>>official US State Department statement about Ukrainians running
>>around with gunns, especially since the US and Ukrainian forces
>>are going to be holding joint military exercises in Ukraine
>>later this year.
>>
>
> Gladly:
>
> ////////////
> http://www.colorado.edu/ibs/PEC/johno/pub/cohen_issue.web.htm
>
> James Rubin, U.S. State Department spokesperson, said that the last
> thing that NATO needs is "a bunch of Ukrainians running around with
> guns on their sides" (Andersen, M. (1999) Myths, bombs and
> arrogance. Kyiv Post 27 May, p.1).
> //////////////////////////////////////////////
>
For a person claiming a US university education, your miscomprehension
of my statement must be intentional. I wrote asking about your claim
"of an official US State Department statement" NOT
'of a statement by a US State Department official'
--
Rostyk
Vladimir Makarenko
Russkies also destroed Ancient Egypt civilization, not to mention Roman.
They now plan to invade the Moon.
Bastards!
VM.
Yalki Palki
"Vladimir Makarenko" <maka...@popmail.med.nyu.edu> wrote in message
news:e-Odnb9F1dyYagPZ...@comcast.com...
> lora...@cs.com wrote:
>
>
> Russkies also destroed Ancient Egypt civilization, not to mention Roman.
> They now plan to invade the Moon.
> Bastards!
>
> VM.
You forgot Russian WMD program caused bubonic plague that ravaged Europe in
medieval times.
Bastards? Yes.
If you don't believe, go visit Monkey Island in the dried up Aral sea.
Komin
NATO is an American force under a different name .
The Chinese military is glad that Ukrian is willing to sell
lots of Ex- Soviet military hard wares to the Chinese Navy ,
especially the Deep Angel Kvar torpedo , which no US torpedo can
counter- act .
the Chinese military is learning more from the Ukrain military
than from the Russian military ,especially in Naval missiles and
Torpedo .
I am glad the Chinese Navy find a good friend with the Ukrainian
Navy.
Komin
large steam Turbine generating power block for the Chinese Navy
ships .
Usually the Chinese Navy uses the French Pielstick diesel generating
sets for the Chinese Frigates for medium size ships .
But the Ukrainian steam turbines are for vvery large ships .
Eugene Holman
<spammer...@now.net> wrote:
> Russia Warns Against NATO Taking in Former Soviet Ukraine and Georgia
> http://www.mosnews.com/news/2006/06/08/ukrainenato.shtml
>
> Russia warned against NATO taking in the former Soviet republics of Ukraine
> and Georgia, saying such a colossal geopolitical shift would threaten
> relations, the AFP news agency reported.
>
> "Membership in NATO for countries like Ukraine or Georgia would mean a
> colossal geopolitical shift," Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said
> during questioning in the State Duma, the lower house of the Russian
> parliament.
>
> "We evaluate all possible consequences first and foremost from the point of
> view of the national interest of Russia, interests in the area of security,
> our economic interests and interests in relations with countries which
> relate to Russia in one way or another," Lavrov said.
<deletions>
In other words, the Russian élite is saying: "We'll huff, and we'll puff,
and we'll blow your house down, therewith also destroying the customer
base for our energy exports."
It is to laugh.
Regards,
Eugene Holman