What a country! Series....The New planned segregation....
Observador
learn, shop, etc.,with whomever we damed please!
On Fri, 07 Dec 2001 15:52:02 GMT, "Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez"
<rodr...@home.com> wrote:
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>A medida que la poblacion envejece, a medida que la poblacion se torna
>mas diversa, racial y culturalmente, se van trazando nuevas formas de segregacion,
>mas sutiles pero no por eso menos peligrosas.
><p>-------------------
><br>
><p>The growth of private communities
><br>
><br>
>AMERICA'S NEW UTOPIAS
><br>
><br> Private housing associations increasingly
>lay down the laws that
><br> middle-class Americans live by. What are they doing
>to the country?
><br>
><br> Dateline: ANTHEM, IRVINE, LEISURE WORLD, SUN CITY AND
>VALENCIA
><br>
><br> HEAD north out of Phoenix, Arizona, up the 1-17. Drive
>past the signs
><br> for Happy Valley Road, Carefree Highway and, less auspiciously,
>one
><br> advising you not to pick up hitchhikers because you are
>passing a
><br> federal prison. Eventually you come to one for "Anthem
>by Del Webb".
><br>
><br> Anthem feels more like a luxury holiday resort than a
>town. It
><br> includes a water park, with Disneyesque water slides,
>a children's
><br> railway, hiking trails, tennis courts, a rock-climbing
>wall, two golf
><br> courses, several spotless parks, a supermarket mall, two
>churches, a
><br> school and, for those who want a little more security,
>the Anthem
><br> Country Club, a gated (and guarded) community.
><br>
><br> Anthem, which is planned to have 12,500 homes, opened
>in 1999. Its
><br> houses and roads look spotless. One reason for this is
>that everybody
><br> who buys a house in Anthem has to follow certain covenants,
>conditions
><br> and restrictions (CC&RS), governing everything from
>the colour of your
><br> house to whether you can put your car on blocks outside
>it (you
><br> can't). Everybody in Anthem, except the construction workers,
>seems to
><br> be white.
><br>
><br> Anthem sounds like an exclusive enclave for the rich.
>Far from it:
><br> homes start at a distinctly modest $155,000. Even the
>residents of the
><br> Anthem Country Club hardly seem posh. They tend to laugh
>at the rules,
><br> regarding them, like the long commute to Phoenix, as part
>of the
><br> price. Why did one young mother come here? "Because it's
>safe, because
><br> there are activities, because it's, well, like us."
><br>
><br> Indeed, Anthem is not bucking a trend, but joining it.
>In many of the
><br> fastest-growing parts of America, development is being
>driven by
><br> "master-planned communities" of one sort or another. In
>big cities
><br> half the new home sales are in association-managed communities,
><br> according to the Community Associations Institute. Altogether,
>some
><br> 47m people-one in six Americans-live in 18m homes in 230,000
><br> communities and pay around $35 billion in fees every year.
>Around
><br> 1.25m people serve on community-association boards.
><br>
><br> Nowadays, whoever you are, there is probably a community
>planned with
><br> you in mind. In Nevada, a 55-acre community called Front
>Sight,
><br> featuring streets with names like Second Amendment Drive
>and Sense of
><br> Duty Way, is being built for gun enthusiasts (people who
>buy an acre
><br> plot get lifetime use of the 22 planned ranges, an Uzi
>machinegun and
><br> a safari in Africa). In Baton Rouge, Louisiana, one gated
>community
><br> seems to have been taken over by black rap stars. In poor
>areas of
><br> Chicago, residents have set up gated communities to ward
>off crime.
><br> Though most of these places are in the west and the south,
>they crop
><br> up all over the country.
><br>
><br> Legally speaking, there are three different kinds of association.
>The
><br> commonest, about 6o% of the total, are home-owner associations:
>a
><br> house buyer also becomes a member of an association that
>owns the
><br> common areas, levies dues and sets rules. Another 30%
>or so are
><br> condominiums typically flats in a single building-where
>the whole
><br> building is owned by a condominium association. The remaining
>8% are
><br> co-operatives, which are like condos, except that the
>owners have
><br> shares in the co-op; most of these are in New York. Of
>all these, some
><br> 20,000 units, housing 8m people, are gated communities.
><br>
><br> The CC&RS vary. In some cases, they just govern how
>you sell your
><br> house. But the list of rules seems to be getting longer.
>Some
><br> residents have to cough up for maintaining the roads,
>pavements and
><br> street lights, looking after the parks and providing security.
>A
><br> maximum size for dogs--usually 30lbs--is increasingly
>common. Leisure
><br> World, California, has its own television station. The
>proliferation
><br> of CC&RS is driven by the trend towards master-planned
>communities
><br> (like Anthem), where the developer tries to create not
>just a cluster
><br> of homes but a way of life.
><br>
><br> The two models for master-planned communities both date
>back to the
><br> 1960s: Irvine, in southern California, and Sun City, outside
>Phoenix.
><br> The whole of Irvine was built by one firm, the Irvine
>Company, which
><br> says confidently that its present population of 200,000
>should double
><br> in the next 20 years. The company presides over Irvine
>in an avuncular
><br> manner. Apart from laying down the CC&RS, it lures
>in businesses (the
><br> Irvine Spectrum business park is one of the fastest-growing
>in the
><br> country), and in 1961 it gave 1,000 acres to set up the
>local branch
><br> of the University of California. Irvine's 75,000 homes
>are divided
><br> into 25 villages (some gated, most not) which collect
>the dues and
><br> watch over the rules.
><br>
><br> The result, argues the Irvine Company, is "smart growth".
>Whereas many
><br> Californians spend hours commuting in their cars, 60%
>of Irvine
><br> Spectrum's workers live within 15 minutes of their jobs.
>Unplanned
><br> towns tend to eat into parks, but 40% of Irvine's space
>will remain
><br> unbuilt-on forever. And then there are all those nice
>little things.
><br> Graffiti are quickly removed; there are no billboards
>on the freeways;
><br> construction workers have to spray water to keep down
>the dust.
><br>
><br> Sun City, the other great model, is a town of 46,000 people
>built by
><br> Del Webb on the other side of Phoenix from Anthem. This
>is a
><br> retirement community, still probably the main section
>of the market.
><br> Retiring to one of these communities (Sun City alone has
>bred a dozen
><br> places with the same name) has become almost a routine
>part of
><br> middle-class life.
><br>
><br> Many of these towns require at least one person in each
>house to be 55
><br> or older, and exclude children. Leisure World, another
>pioneer from
><br> the 196os, has 20,000 people with an average age of 77.
>The west is
><br> littered with elderly Chicagoans who left the Windy City
>because of
><br> the cold and now can't stop moaning about their air-conditioning
><br> bills. Even Rabbit Angstrom, John Updike's American Everyman,
>ended up
><br> in a Florida condo.
><br>
><br> But the retirement market is changing. Witness the newest
>Sun City
><br> outside Phoenix-a computerised, Starbucked, multi-gym
>affair aimed at
><br> "active adults". By 2010, there will be 75m Americans
>aged 55 or more.
><br> People now live about 15 years longer than when the first
>Sun City was
><br> built, but most of the surge in numbers by 2010 will come
>from the 76m
><br> members of the baby-boom generation, now moving towards
>retirement.
><br>
><br> The older sort of retirement community is not exactly
>a senile nursing
><br> home (there were two dozen complaints about couples having
>sex
><br> outdoors at Sun City West last year, the average age of
>the offenders
><br> being 73). But the baby-boomers represent a new challenge.
>Zoomers-Del
><br> Webb's name for the first group of retiring boomers-prefer
>to retire
><br> early (Del Webb's research shows one in three planning
>to retire
><br> before 60), but without giving up work completely. Retirement
>for them
><br> will be a third age, still full of assorted activities.
><br>
><br> Why they keep growing
><br>
><br> Demographics partly explains the growth of planned communities.
>But
><br> there are two deeper forces at work: American Utopianism,
>and distrust
><br> of government.
><br>
><br> Evan McKenzie, a professor at the University of Illinois
>in Chicago
><br> and author of "Privatopia" (Yale University Press, 1994),
>argues that,
><br> whereas European Utopians tended to concentrate on changing
>the
><br> society around them, American ones preferred to go off
>and create a
><br> new world somewhere else. Some cities-on-a-hill have been
>built by
><br> religious fervour. More often, immigrants simply want
>to use America's
><br> empty space to create a better life. Contemplating the
><br> "uncontaminated" wilderness of the west, Thomas Paine
>once mused, "We
><br> have it in our power to begin the world all over again."
><br>
><br> A similar optimism, if not quite so elegantly phrased,
>litters the
><br> literature of planned communities. The other side of the
>coin is
><br> pessimism about-and often disdain for-the services that
>public cities
><br> provide. The commonest worry is security (hence all those
>gates,
><br> though there is not much evidence that gated communities
>are safer
><br> than non-gated ones). But there are also concerns about
>education,
><br> health care, transport: everything the public sector is
>supposed to
><br> provide.
><br>
><br> Compare Valencia, a fast-growing "private" city an hour
>north of Los
><br> Angeles, with the San Fernando Valley, which is the northern
>part of
><br> that city, and has provided around a quarter of Valencia's
>42,000
><br> people. Children in the San Fernando Valley are condemned
>to schools
><br> run by L.A'S notorious Unified School District; Valencia's
>schools are
><br> excellent. People walk in the Valley only if they run
>out of petrol;
><br> Valencia has 25 miles of paseos for people to jog and
>bike along.
><br> Crime is high in the Valley; Valencia is part of Santa
>Clairita, one
><br> of the safest cities in the country. Thanks to smart growth,
><br> two-thirds of the homes in Valencia are within a quarter
>of a mile of
><br> school, shops and library. If only, moan Angelenos.
><br>
><br> Joel Kotkin, author of "The New Geography" (Random House,
>2000), calls
><br> the rise of places like Valencia "an escape to sanity"
>from the
><br> corruption and inefficiency of big-city government. Community
><br> associations took off in California in the 1970s, the
>same decade as
><br> the passing of Proposition 13, which cut taxes for local
>government.
><br> And their growth has also coincided with that of private
>schools and
><br> private security guards; the latter now out-number the
>"public" police
><br> by four to one.
><br>
><br> GRAPH: Private dwelling; Source: Community
>Associations Institute
><br>
><br> Private dwelling;
>Source: Community Associations Institute
><br>
><br> So are planned communities a good thing? For the Americans
>inside
><br> them, the answer is usually yes. "Do I like being told
>that I have to
><br> warn the security guards that I am going to have a party,
>or that I
><br> cannot put up a basketball hoop in my driveway?" asks
>one Irvineite.
><br> "Of course I don't. But it's not something that keeps
>me awake at
><br> night." There is a widespread feeling that housing-association
>boards
><br> attract the worst busybodies in town. Yet still the queue
>of
><br> applicants goes on growing.
><br>
><br> The public-private schism
><br>
><br> What about America as a whole? These are, still, mainly
>white places.
><br> In five days The Economist met only one black resident
>and no Latinos
><br> in a string of planned communities across the west and
>the southwest.
><br> This may change, as America's middle class grows steadily
>more
><br> multi-coloured; but for now the juxtaposition of white
>Sun Cities and
><br> Latino local schools in Arizona is strange, even troubling.
><br>
><br> A more general worry is that a growing part of the middle
>class is
><br> abandoning the state: living on private roads, sending
>its children to
><br> private schools, paying for its own private police force,
>playing golf
><br> at private clubs. Why bother supporting public services
>when you get
><br> all yours delivered privately? And what about all those
>poorer people,
><br> stuck with public housing, public schools and public transport?
>From
><br> the right, Charles Murray has talked of America's coming
>"caste
><br> society'', with old-style cities becoming like Indian
>reservations.
><br> From the left, Robert Reich fears a secession of the successful.
><br>
><br> This is an exaggeration. There are occasional examples
>of selfish
><br> behaviour: some elderly gated communities have voted not
>to let public
><br> schools within their walls. But there is no evidence that
>whites in
><br> planned communities are any more hostile to government
>spending than
><br> those outside. The mayor of Irvine, Larry Agran (a left-wing
>Democrat
><br> who once ran for president), says the people of Irvine
>are far more
><br> involved in both their state and local governments than
>people in Los
><br> Angeles, where he used to live.
><br>
><br> To be sure, the growth of planned communities can eat
>into the
><br> authority of the state. Robert Nelson, of the University
>of Maryland,
><br> points to two examples. The CC&RS trump a good deal
>of municipal law
><br> (for instance in terms of property-sales contracts). Second,
>a
><br> community can set rules about who is allowed to live in
>it.
><br>
><br> For Mr Agran, all this is worthwhile. The real evils of
>life in
><br> southern California, he says, are things like "the separation
>of the
><br> workplace from the home". In communities with smart growth
>this is a
><br> fading problem. Mr Kotkin agrees: "It would be perverse
>to limit the
><br> growth of successful places that people want to live in."
><br>
><br> PHOTO (COLOR)
><br>
>_________________
><br>
><br> Copyright of The Economist is the property of Economist
>Newspaper, NA,
><br> Inc. and its content may not be copied or emailed to multiple
>sites or
><br> posted to a listserv without the copyright holder's express
>written
><br> permission. However, users may print, download, or email
>articles for
><br> individual use.
><br> Source: Economist, 9/1/2001, Vol. 360 Issue 8237, p25,
>2p, 1 graph,
><br> 1c.
><br> Item Number: 5100695
><br>
><br>
><p>--
><br>Victor M. Rodriguez, Ph.D.
><br>Diversity Consultant/Trainer
><br>CrossCultural Dialogue
><br>rodr...@home.com
><br> </html>
>
El Marques
news:3C10FE59...@home.com...
> Jeje...yo creo que tu has estado respirando
> pega por demasiado tiempo....
Mientras que tu has estado respirando odio toda tu vida, y el efecto sobre
tu cerebro ha sido un millon deveces peor, porque ya no tienes capacidad
para desarrollar ni una sola idea independiente que no venga embarrada de
ese odio anti-americano que te consume! Pero ya tu tienes tu peor castigo -
que vives la vida que pretendes criticarle a los demas, y eso te rejode el
alma! Alla tu con tu conciencia!
El Marques
vmrd
el Chardonnay?
El Marques
news:3C116D3B...@home.com...
> Cavilo lo que dices camino a el jacuzzi
> ... BTW, prefieres el Merlot o el Chardonnay?
Se me olvidaba que hoy es viernes. Si alguien logra descifrar lo que trata
de decir este borrachon, por favor que lo comparta con los que estamos
sobrios!
El Marques
XXX
>
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>usualmente te endilgas, sabes bien a lo que me refiero.
><p>Mano, "you are so easy!"
Lo unico que es "easy" aqui, es ver el ridiculo que haces en este foro dia tras dia.
No tenemos que preguntarnos el porque tu eres un fracaso total en el mundo academico, si con ese
problema brutal con el alcohol que tienes, mas tu inabilidad total de poder exponer una idea en
forma racional es imposible que llegaras a algo en esta vida
XXX
>
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Igual como lo de Franchi?
A la verdad que a ti se que te gusta amenazar, ah? Porque sera que siempre que abusas el alcohol
te pones en esas?
Sabes lo que dicen sobre eso, verdad? Supuestamente te remueve las inhibiciones y sale el
verdadero ser que tienes por dentro.
En tu caso, vemos que es un ser lleno de odio, revanchismo y complejos.
Jorge Franchi
cuando yo quiera hacer algo
vmrd
Affirmative Action Admit! YO ME GRADUE CON 3.89!
Hasta James tiene mejores notas que tu!
jAJA!
h0mi
"Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez" wrote:
>
> A medida que la poblacion envejece, a medida que la poblacion se torna
> mas diversa, racial y culturalmente, se van trazando nuevas formas de
> segregacion, mas sutiles pero no por eso menos peligrosas.
>
> -------------------
>
>
> The growth of private communities
>
> AMERICA'S NEW UTOPIAS
>
> Private housing associations increasingly lay down the laws that
> middle-class Americans live by. What are they doing to the
> country?
<snip>
> From the left, Robert Reich fears a secession of the successful.
>
> This is an exaggeration. There are occasional examples of selfish
> behaviour: some elderly gated communities have voted not to let
> public schools within their walls. But there is no evidence that
> whites in planned communities are any more hostile to government
> spending than those outside. The mayor of Irvine, Larry Agran (a
> left-wing Democrat who once ran for president), says the people of
> Irvine are far more involved in both their state and local
> governments than people in Los Angeles, where he used to live.
>
> To be sure, the growth of planned communities can eat into the
> authority of the state. Robert Nelson, of the University of
> Maryland, points to two examples. The CC&RS trump a good deal
> of municipal law (for instance in terms of property-sales
> contracts). Second, a community can set rules about who is
> allowed to live in it.
>
> For Mr Agran, all this is worthwhile. The real evils of life in
> southern California, he says, are things like "the separation of
> the workplace from the home". In communities with smart growth
> this is a fading problem. Mr Kotkin agrees: "It would be perverse
> to limit the growth of successful places that people want to live
> in."
Sounds like an indictment of "planned communities" and so called "Smart
growth".
While the lack of Latinos or blacks in these communities would be
roubling, that in and of itself does not demonstrate anything, unless
you're resorting to the use of numbers (ie quotas) to determine that
discrimination is happening, or not happening. What is more worrisome is
how expensive buying a home has become, and that hurts Latinos, Blacks
and Whites.
Looking at mapquest, the area in question looks rather far and isolated
from Phoenix- its about 30 miles north of Phoenix. According to the
article, this is taking place in a town called Anthem Az.
A search on Google refers to the following URL, amongst others.
http://www.delwebb.com/countryclub/arizona/anthemcountryclub/index.shtml
These homes do not appear to be geared towards anyone in the middle or
lower classes. This appears to be geared towards well off people, or the
rich. It looks to me less like a "permanent" home and more like a 2nd
home, but the presence of schools suggests otherwise.
Looking at the sale prices of these homes, it seems these homes in this
community are going for 250,000 or more. But that's the cost of homes at
the country club. The article referred to homes that were over 1/2 that
cost, and I'm
Here in San Diego, that would be average. In Phoenix, that seems to be a
price for more luxurious houses- on realtor.com I found over 2000
listings for homes that were 200K and less. For homes from 200-400K, I
found almost 990. And some of the listings were from "Anthem, AZ" as
well. I found 59 listings under 200K for Anthem AZ and 201 for >200K.
This suggests that homes that are under 200K are low end, and uncommon.
XXX
>Sounds like an indictment of "planned communities" and so called "Smart
>growth".
>
>While the lack of Latinos or blacks in these communities would be
>roubling, that in and of itself does not demonstrate anything, unless
>you're resorting to the use of numbers (ie quotas) to determine that
>discrimination is happening, or not happening. What is more worrisome is
>how expensive buying a home has become, and that hurts Latinos, Blacks
>and Whites.
I should tell you that Victor neglected to mention that EVERY SINGLE NEW HOUSING DEVELOPMENT in
Puerto Rico these days is under the "gated community" concept or geared for easy transformation
to the same. In San Juan in particular, all new housing for the last few years has been done
under the gated community concept.
So you see, latinos are getting into it as well. Miami and Orlando, which are full of latinos,
are also chock full of gated communities.
XXX
>
>Palas? Tu ni tuviste un "score" lo suficiente alto para entrar a FSU!
>Affirmative Action Admit! YO ME GRADUE CON 3.89!
Aqui no se esta hablando de notas de primer grado, canto de brucefalo, sino de universidad.
Y te podras haber graduado con el promedio que sea, pero la realidad es que ya pasastes los 50 y
todavia eres un "Assistant Professor" que apenas empezo a dar clases en una universidad que no es
sino un depositorio de estudiantes de C.
>Hasta James tiene mejores notas que tu!
>
Y quien es James?
XXX
>
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>veces aqui cuando yo quiera hacer algo, no me escondo ni estoy con anonimos
>como ustedes ni siquiera encapuchado. Lo hare en ley, de frente.
Si, lo has dicho cuchucientas veces, una pena que no sea verdad.
Aqui has amenazado, has cyberstalked y dios sabe que mas has hecho bajo la proteccion del
anonimato.
XXX
>
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>te mueves. Deja de proyectarte. Das pena y nausea.
Vamos a ver quien es el alcoholico, que ahora me estas confundiendo con El Marques.
Victor, ya aqui se sabe sobre tus problemas, deja de huirle a ellos.
Jorge Franchi
> YO ME GRADUE CON 3.89!
Whao ... y esos 3.89 en Sociologia (JA JA!) lo han llevado a un puestucho de
Asociado en un programa de pacotilla.
Admitalo ... usted es y seguira siendo un SOBERANO MEDIOCRE que no ha llegado a
ningun lado a los cincuenta años.
Jorge Franchi
Jorge Franchi
> Tu ni tuviste un "score" lo suficiente alto para entrar a FSU!
> Affirmative Action Admit!
Claro que lo admito! Ejma, soy un bruto que no sabe hablar ni escribir.
Pero usted no deja de ser un un desquiciado mental que llego a este grupo con
guille de jodón, pero resulto ser un SOBERANO MEDIOCRE; un HIPÓCRITA que aunque
incita a las masas a practicar la desobediencia civil, no se atreve a
practicarla; un FARSANTE que aunque diz que es "experto," no tiene las
calificaciones necesarias para categorizarse como tal; un VIVIDOR y ENAJENADO
MENTAL que precisa dispersar odio, rencor y miedo entre las razas para poder
ganar dinero.
Ahh ... se me olvidaba ... y con un 3.89 en Sociologia (JA JA!) y de un programa
de pacotilla.
'Dito!
Jorge Franchi
h0mi
I'm not surprised... I've heard of the phenomenon for a few years, both
as part of "smart growth" policies and just part of an effort to create
a new community that people would want to live in. And face it... the
world was more dangerous even prior to 9/11 than it was years ago.
Despite the drops in crime we've experienced in the past 20 years,
people feel less safe and secure than before. So we see a push to build
a more safe and secure community.
XXX
Estas equivocado, el ha llegado a vivir en el mejor pais del mundo, recibiendo albergue en el
"welfare state" academico que los EU han creado. No tan solo eso, sino que tiene un "sideline",
guisando chavos a base de la explotacion de estereotipos y la cultura de victimaje.
Para el que tenga dudas de lo magnanimos que son los americanos, solo tienen que ver que permiten
que una sanguijuela (antes hubiera dicho rata de cuenta, pero las ratas protestaron) como Victor
pueda andar por ahi hablando pestes de ellos, a la misma vez que ellos lo mantienen.
Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez
XXX wrote:
Canto de bobo entonces estas diciendo que El Marques es un alcoholico
...Jaime, tremendo pana te gastas!
Todos los dias ...
Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez
XXX wrote:
> In article <3C1285BC...@home.com>, rodr...@home.com says...
>
>>Palas? Tu ni tuviste un "score" lo suficiente alto para entrar a FSU!
>>Affirmative Action Admit! YO ME GRADUE CON 3.89!
>>
>
> Aqui no se esta hablando de notas de primer grado, canto de brucefalo, sino de universidad.
> Y te podras haber graduado con el promedio que sea, pero la realidad es que ya pasastes los 50 y
> todavia eres un "Assistant Professor" que apenas empezo a dar clases en una universidad que no es
> sino un depositorio de estudiantes de C.
Que moron eres! Por lo menos el cyberstalker de Franchi esta mas
informado, aunque como siempre no sabe lo que la informacion significa.
>
>
>>Hasta James tiene mejores notas que tu!
>>
>>
> Y quien es James?
>
>
Paul, el que siempre te arraaaastra por el piso ...
Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez
insultos y difamaciones.
La verdad es que este foro sigue hundiendose gracias a uds.
Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez
h0mi wrote:
>
> Sounds like an indictment of "planned communities" and so called "Smart
> growth".
Basically the author is referring to the "cocooning" process. This is
becoming more visible throughout the U.S. Some argue that it is the
"subtle" way of re-segregating while avoiding the label of "racist" by
accepting some select individuals from communities of color. Dana Point
is a a good example of this, the mexican community lives in one part of
the city and the rest of the city is made of gated communities
predominantly inhabited by whites and a few people of color.
>
> While the lack of Latinos or blacks in these communities would be
> roubling, that in and of itself does not demonstrate anything, unless
> you're resorting to the use of numbers (ie quotas) to determine that
> discrimination is happening, or not happening. What is more worrisome is
> how expensive buying a home has become, and that hurts Latinos, Blacks
> and Whites.
Housing discrimination is subtle but pervasive, a few years ago a number
of housing complexes in Orange County were sued for "steering" and
outright discrimination. The cases are still in court.
>
> Looking at mapquest, the area in question looks rather far and isolated
> from Phoenix- its about 30 miles north of Phoenix. According to the
> article, this is taking place in a town called Anthem Az.
>
> A search on Google refers to the following URL, amongst others.
> http://www.delwebb.com/countryclub/arizona/anthemcountryclub/index.shtml
>
> These homes do not appear to be geared towards anyone in the middle or
> lower classes. This appears to be geared towards well off people, or the
> rich. It looks to me less like a "permanent" home and more like a 2nd
> home, but the presence of schools suggests otherwise.
There are many Black and Latino persons of upper middle class status and
few of them find their way into those communities. In Irvine you can
see a Black person as often as you find a "piragua" stand.
>
> Looking at the sale prices of these homes, it seems these homes in this
> community are going for 250,000 or more. But that's the cost of homes at
> the country club. The article referred to homes that were over 1/2 that
> cost, and I'm
>
> Here in San Diego, that would be average. In Phoenix, that seems to be a
> price for more luxurious houses- on realtor.com I found over 2000
> listings for homes that were 200K and less. For homes from 200-400K, I
> found almost 990. And some of the listings were from "Anthem, AZ" as
> well. I found 59 listings under 200K for Anthem AZ and 201 for >200K.
> This suggests that homes that are under 200K are low end, and uncommon.
It's called "steering" in real estate jargon, you steer people into
their "own" neighborhoods and no one will notice it.
>
Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez
people of all colors, in Puerto Rico is an issue of security (although
no evidence indicates they are more secure) and status (especially
class). Here it is a bit more complicated.
XXX wrote:
>
> I should tell you that Victor neglected to mention that EVERY SINGLE NEW HOUSING DEVELOPMENT in
> Puerto Rico these days is under the "gated community" concept or geared for easy transformation
> to the same. In San Juan in particular, all new housing for the last few years has been done
> under the gated community concept.
> So you see, latinos are getting into it as well. Miami and Orlando, which are full of latinos,
> are also chock full of gated communities.
>
>
>
>
>
I also did not say anything about manors in Essex.
I don't think that the comparison holds, I have been to them and see
people of all colors, in Puerto Rico is an issue of security (although
no evidence indicates they are more secure) and status (especially
class). Here it is a bit more complicated.
>
El Marques
> Como siempre, no tienen un argumento serio y se esconden
> detras de insultos y difamaciones.
Una vez mas, te repito el argumento SERIO que expone XXX para explicar tu
comportamiento y revelar las razones que te mueven a actuar de la forma que
actuas. En cuanto a clasificarlas como "insultos" y "difamaciones", eso
solo seria correcto si no fueran ciertas todas y cada una de las expresiones
que hace XXX aqui en este breve parrafo. Nos puedes decir entonces cuales
son falsas?
> > Estas equivocado, el ha llegado a vivir en el mejor pais del
> > mundo, recibiendo albergue en el "welfare state" academico
> > que los EU han creado. No tan solo eso, sino que tiene un
> > "sideline", guisando chavos a base de la explotacion de
> > estereotipos y la cultura de victimaje. Para el que tenga
> > dudas de lo magnanimos que son los americanos, solo tienen
> > que ver que permiten que una sanguijuela (antes hubiera
> > dicho rata de cuenta, pero las ratas protestaron) como Victor
> > pueda andar por ahi hablando pestes de ellos, a la misma
> > vez que ellos lo mantienen.
Lo unico correcto en tu patetica alegacion es que seria insultante para
cualquier ser humano pensante ganarse la vida de la forma que tu lo haces,
pero ya sabemos que tu no te encuentras bajo esa clasificacion!
El Marques
El Marques
> I don't think...
We know, Victor, WE KNOW!
El Marques
Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez
h0mi wrote:
>
>
> I'm not surprised... I've heard of the phenomenon for a few years, both
> as part of "smart growth" policies and just part of an effort to create
> a new community that people would want to live in. And face it... the
> world was more dangerous even prior to 9/11 than it was years ago.
> Despite the drops in crime we've experienced in the past 20 years,
> people feel less safe and secure than before. So we see a push to build
> a more safe and secure community.
>
I don't think that the pheomenom in Puerto Rico is similar to what is
happening here. Dale Maharidge, in his 1996 book "The Coming White
Minority" has a map that shows the pervasive and increasing
re-segregation of Califas. You would find this book very interesting.
BTW, before any one questions Dale he is the recipient of the 1990
Pulitzer prize in Non-Fiction and a great researcher.
Also that fact was documented by Waldinger in "Ethnic Los Angeles." In
the US the issue of crime is also a "racial" issue. When people think of
a "criminal" it is usually a person of color. Then it is not suprising
that people will want to segregate themselves from the perceived
perpetrators of crimes (it is just a perception because a good
percentage of crime is intra-racial instead of inter-racial).
"Feeling safe" means not being around people of color ...
El Marques
> I don't think...
The more you say it, the more evident it becomes!
El Marques
Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez
estan convencidos de su veracidad.
Pos' pa' lante!
El Marques
> Lo que me apena de todos estos comentarios es que
> uds son tan locos que estan convencidos de su veracidad.
Lo verdaderamente patetico de este comentario tuyo es que no tienes la
integridad ni la capacidad para poder reconocer ni admitir la triste
realidad que vives dia a dia! Sera por esto que buscas escapar metiendote
dentro de la botella?
El Marques
Rafael H. Perez Roura
--
"Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists. " -W
"Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez" <rodr...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3C13A404...@home.com...
XXX
>
>Canto de bobo entonces estas diciendo que El Marques es un alcoholico
>...Jaime, tremendo pana te gastas!
Pero seras imbecil o es que esa es parte de las consecuencias de tu abuso del alcohol?
El que viene acusando a El Marques de ser alcoholico eres tu, canto de trozo de mierda, y te
confundistes y me acusastes a mi tambien.
Victor, vete a AA, que todavia tienes tiempo para arrepentirte
XXX
>
>Que moron eres! Por lo menos el cyberstalker de Franchi esta mas
>informado, aunque como siempre no sabe lo que la informacion significa.
Se dan cuenta que Victor JAMAS niega lo que asevero? Insulta, despotrica, le da dos o tres mas
jalones a la caneca que siempre tiene a su lado, pero nunca lo niega.
XXX
>
>Como siempre, no tienen un argumento serio y se esconden detras de
>insultos y difamaciones.
Mira quien habla, un tipo que tilda de "moron" o de "bruto" a todo el que discrepe del.
Deja tu hipocresia, canto de asno, que lo que tienes que hacer es argumentar, en vez de seguir
evadiendo.
>La verdad es que este foro sigue hundiendose gracias a uds.
No te gusta? Pues largate pa uno de esos lists serves de independejistas, donde podras abundar a
tu saciedad con la mierda que tanto te gusta hablar.
Y antes que se me olvide, nuevamente no niegas que lo que dije fuera cierto.
XXX
>
>
>
>h0mi wrote:
>
>>
>
>> Sounds like an indictment of "planned communities" and so called "Smart
>> growth".
>
>
>Basically the author is referring to the "cocooning" process. This is
>becoming more visible throughout the U.S. Some argue that it is the
>"subtle" way of re-segregating while avoiding the label of "racist" by
>accepting some select individuals from communities of color. Dana Point
>is a a good example of this, the mexican community lives in one part of
>the city and the rest of the city is made of gated communities
>predominantly inhabited by whites and a few people of color.
Which means that anyone with the means can live there, thus defeating your hypothesis.
>Housing discrimination is subtle but pervasive, a few years ago a number
>of housing complexes in Orange County were sued for "steering" and
>outright discrimination. The cases are still in court.
And that also means that no conclusions can be derived from such legal actions, as they have not
been determined.
>There are many Black and Latino persons of upper middle class status and
> few of them find their way into those communities. In Irvine you can
>see a Black person as often as you find a "piragua" stand.
So? If they don't want to live there, that's their problem. As far as finding or not finding a
black in Irvine, so what? You're not going to find many blacks in South Dakota or North Dakota
either. Is their absence proof positive of racism? Or could it be that, since blacks only make
up about 12% of the general population, there's a hell of a lot of places where you're not going
to find them?
>It's called "steering" in real estate jargon, you steer people into
>their "own" neighborhoods and no one will notice it.
And now Victor is trying to pretend to be a real estate maven as well?
And who are these people who let themselves be "steered" like cattle?
Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez
Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez
XXX wrote:
>
>
> Mira quien habla, un tipo que tilda de "moron" o de "bruto" a todo el que discrepe del.
> Deja tu hipocresia, canto de asno, que lo que tienes que hacer es argumentar, en vez de seguir
> evadiendo.
Yo solo llamo moron a quien es un moron. Tu te lo ganaste.
>
>
>>La verdad es que este foro sigue hundiendose gracias a uds.
>>
>
>
> No te gusta? Pues largate pa uno de esos lists serves de independejistas, donde podras abundar a
> tu saciedad con la mierda que tanto te gusta hablar.
> Y antes que se me olvide, nuevamente no niegas que lo que dije fuera cierto.
>
Date una vuelta por Palique, alli la gente es mucho mas decente que tu y
tus personalidades ...
>
Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez
XXX wrote:
>>Basically the author is referring to the "cocooning" process. This is
>>becoming more visible throughout the U.S. Some argue that it is the
>>"subtle" way of re-segregating while avoiding the label of "racist" by
>>accepting some select individuals from communities of color. Dana Point
>>is a a good example of this, the mexican community lives in one part of
>>the city and the rest of the city is made of gated communities
>>predominantly inhabited by whites and a few people of color.
>>
>
> Which means that anyone with the means can live there, thus defeating your hypothesis.
Sure, and Colin Powell and Condolezza Rice make the Bush cabinet a truly
open and diverse administration.
>
>
>>Housing discrimination is subtle but pervasive, a few years ago a number
>>of housing complexes in Orange County were sued for "steering" and
>>outright discrimination. The cases are still in court.
>>
>
> And that also means that no conclusions can be derived from such legal actions, as they have not
> been determined.
Those are just the most recent.
>
>
>>There are many Black and Latino persons of upper middle class status and
>> few of them find their way into those communities. In Irvine you can
>>see a Black person as often as you find a "piragua" stand.
>>
>
> So? If they don't want to live there, that's their problem. As far as finding or not finding a
> black in Irvine, so what? You're not going to find many blacks in South Dakota or North Dakota
> either. Is their absence proof positive of racism? Or could it be that, since blacks only make
> up about 12% of the general population, there's a hell of a lot of places where you're not going
> to find them?
You may be right, I did not see Martians in ND I guess it means they do
not exist.
>
>
>>It's called "steering" in real estate jargon, you steer people into
>>their "own" neighborhoods and no one will notice it.
>>
>
> And now Victor is trying to pretend to be a real estate maven as well?
> And who are these people who let themselves be "steered" like cattle?
>
>
You are obviously unaware of its pervasivenes, but then ... what's new?
XXX
>
>I don't think that the comparison holds, I have been to them and see
>people of all colors, in Puerto Rico is an issue of security (although
>no evidence indicates they are more secure)
Is there evidence that indicates that they are not?
>and status (especially class). Here it is a bit more complicated.
You will never cease to amaze me with your talent for holding forth on topics that you do not
know dick about.
Security is also an issue for gated communities in the states.
And you know about those covenants (in spanish, we call them "servidumbres en equidad") that
those gated communities in the states have? Well, they have them in the gated communities in PR
as well, and they are directed at preserving property values and quality of life.
So, in Puerto Rico, as in the states, people are moving into these developments for pretty much
the same reasons: security and quality of life.
XXX
>
>No y tampoco negue que Santa Claus existe!
Pero canto de borracho, cuando yo dije que el existiera?
XXX
>
>
>
>XXX wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Mira quien habla, un tipo que tilda de "moron" o de "bruto" a todo el que discrepe del.
>> Deja tu hipocresia, canto de asno, que lo que tienes que hacer es argumentar, en vez de seguir
>> evadiendo.
>
>
>Yo solo llamo moron a quien es un moron. Tu te lo ganaste.
Y yo llamo pendejo, mentiroso e hipocrita al que se lo merece. Y tu te lo mereces.
No te quejes de que alguien te haga lo que tu mismo haces, canto de hipocrita.
>Date una vuelta por Palique, alli la gente es mucho mas decente que tu y
>tus personalidades ...
No me gustan los list serves, sirven para que un grupito selecto pueda tener discusiones
esteriles entre si. Por eso te los recomiendo, tu no tienes la fibra para poder mantener una
discusion inteligente con alguien que se te oponga. Lo degeneras en insultos, para luego
quejarte hipocritamante de "lo bajo del tono del debate". Claro, en un list serve el moderador
no te permite que te las canten como te las cantamos aqui, asi que cuando quieras leer la verdad,
leete uno de los mensajes de Franchi, El Marques, TDC, Observador, Rafa Perez o este servidor,
que nosotros te recordaremos en todo momento lo mentiroso, hipocrita y pendejo que eres.
XXX
>I don't think
You've proven that beyond a shadow of a doubt.
>that the pheomenom in Puerto Rico is similar to what is
>happening here.
It isn't a phenomenon. It's a way of life in PR. But you wouldn't know about that, Victor,
since you don't live here.
>Dale Maharidge, in his 1996 book "The Coming White
>Minority" has a map that shows the pervasive and increasing
>re-segregation of Califas. You would find this book very interesting.
>BTW, before any one questions Dale he is the recipient of the 1990
>Pulitzer prize in Non-Fiction and a great researcher.
So what? Janice Cooke won a non-fiction Pulitzer Prize some time ago, and she was one hell of a
fraud. And that "academic" who wrote the book which purported to show that colonial americans
did not own guns, was just recently proven to be a fraud as well, as he distorted evidence and
falsified his research.
Victor engages here in one of the oldest argumentative tricks there is: Since "X" says it, and
"X" is well respected, then it must be true.
Mind you, he doesn't tell you what exactly "X" said, or in what context he said it, but you are
expected to put aside any doubts and take it as gospel.
This kind of intellectual chicanery is lamentably too frequent these day.
>Also that fact was documented by Waldinger in "Ethnic Los Angeles." In
>the US the issue of crime is also a "racial" issue. When people think of
>a "criminal" it is usually a person of color.
Does that include "people of color" themselves (and what about this bs about "people of color"??
Doesn't everyone have a color? Or is this just another pathetic attempt from the PC set to put
all "minorities" into one bag?)?
>Then it is not suprising
>that people will want to segregate themselves from the perceived
>perpetrators of crimes (it is just a perception because a good
>percentage of crime is intra-racial instead of inter-racial).
>
>"Feeling safe" means not being around people of color ...
Well, now Victor comes out with his real argument: that gated commuties are the new way that
whites use to stay away from "people of color".
Unfortunately, that argument is not supported by the fact that in places like San Juan, Orlando
and Miami, latinos are also moving into gated communities, and by the fact that anyone can buy
into these communities. Since it would be against the law for these developments to discriminate
against anyone based on their color, sex or religion, then the argument becomes rather specious.
XXX
>
>Lo que me apena de todos estos comentarios es que uds son tan locos que
>estan convencidos de su veracidad.
>
>Pos' pa' lante!
Lo que te deberia dar pena es tu adiccion al alcohol.
XXX
>
>Sure, and Colin Powell and Condolezza Rice make the Bush cabinet a truly
>open and diverse administration.
Wrong comparison, wrong conclusion.
Aside from the fact that your comment avoids the truth: anyone with the means can buy a house in
a gated community.
>Those are just the most recent.
So what? Just because someone sues, that doesn't mean they're right.
>You may be right, I did not see Martians in ND I guess it means they do not exist.
Here's where your defective thinking comes to the fore, Victor. I did not say that blacks did
not exist. What I said was that their absence (or at least the fact that you do not see them) in
Irvine could be due to the fact that the numbers of blacks in the US are limited, thus one cannot
expect to see them everywhere.
>You are obviously unaware of its pervasivenes, but then ... what's new?
What I'm unaware of is anything to back up what you say, but then. . . what's new?
Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez
XXX wrote:
Otro ejemplo de la depravacion que causa el abuso del alcohol.
Lee las puercadas que escribes antes de enviarlas ... para esto es que
te gusta el acceso al Internet?
>
> Y yo llamo pendejo, mentiroso e hipocrita al que se lo merece. Y tu te lo mereces.
> No te quejes de que alguien te haga lo que tu mismo haces, canto de hipocrita.
>
>
>>Date una vuelta por Palique, alli la gente es mucho mas decente que tu y
>>tus personalidades ...
>>
>
> No me gustan los list serves, sirven para que un grupito selecto pueda tener discusiones
> esteriles entre si. Por eso te los recomiendo, tu no tienes la fibra para poder mantener una
> discusion inteligente con alguien que se te oponga. Lo degeneras en insultos, para luego
> quejarte hipocritamante de "lo bajo del tono del debate". Claro, en un list serve el moderador
> no te permite que te las canten como te las cantamos aqui, asi que cuando quieras leer la verdad,
> leete uno de los mensajes de Franchi, El Marques, TDC, Observador, Rafa Perez o este servidor,
> que nosotros te recordaremos en todo momento lo mentiroso, hipocrita y pendejo que eres.
>
>
Y todos son dos o tres locos con PD ...
Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez
XXX wrote:
>>
>
> It isn't a phenomenon. It's a way of life in PR. But you wouldn't know about that, Victor,
> since you don't live here.
Wow! What a smart comment!
>
>
>
>>Dale Maharidge, in his 1996 book "The Coming White
>>Minority" has a map that shows the pervasive and increasing
>>re-segregation of Califas. You would find this book very interesting.
>>BTW, before any one questions Dale he is the recipient of the 1990
>>Pulitzer prize in Non-Fiction and a great researcher.
>>
>
> So what? Janice Cooke won a non-fiction Pulitzer Prize some time ago, and she was one hell of a
> fraud. And that "academic" who wrote the book which purported to show that colonial americans
> did not own guns, was just recently proven to be a fraud as well, as he distorted evidence and
> falsified his research.
Ad hominem ... but this is your trademark. I was sure you would come
back with some asinine remark like this one. You are so predictable it
is getting to boring. That has NOTHING to do with Dale. But then, If I
was desperate and did not have any arguments ...
> Victor engages here in one of the oldest argumentative tricks there is: Since "X" says it, and
> "X" is well respected, then it must be true.
> Mind you, he doesn't tell you what exactly "X" said, or in what context he said it, but you are
> expected to put aside any doubts and take it as gospel.
> This kind of intellectual chicanery is lamentably too frequent these day.
Your ignorance could probably create a solar eclipse. It's called a
source, buddy, a source, and a very reputable one. But then, I could
probably quote Jesus and you'd say, "since he was Jewish we can't
believe him."
>
>
>>Also that fact was documented by Waldinger in "Ethnic Los Angeles." In
>>the US the issue of crime is also a "racial" issue. When people think of
>>a "criminal" it is usually a person of color.
>>
>
> Does that include "people of color" themselves (and what about this bs about "people of color"??
> Doesn't everyone have a color? Or is this just another pathetic attempt from the PC set to put
> all "minorities" into one bag?)?
Your color is yellow ...
>
>
>>Then it is not suprising
>>that people will want to segregate themselves from the perceived
>>perpetrators of crimes (it is just a perception because a good
>>percentage of crime is intra-racial instead of inter-racial).
>>
>>"Feeling safe" means not being around people of color ...
>>
>
> Well, now Victor comes out with his real argument: that gated commuties are the new way that
> whites use to stay away from "people of color".
> Unfortunately, that argument is not supported by the fact that in places like San Juan, Orlando
> and Miami, latinos are also moving into gated communities, and by the fact that anyone can buy
> into these communities. Since it would be against the law for these developments to discriminate
> against anyone based on their color, sex or religion, then the argument becomes rather specious.
>
>
You provide no evidence so I discount your statement. Of course, racism
obeys the law! You are so naive!
In San Juan, everyone is a Boricua, in Orlando, almost everyone seems to
be ... so Latinos want to join the trend. Thye are status conscious! I'd
like to see how many would be able to enter some of the gated
communities in Alabama ... I think they call them penitentiaries!
Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez
XXX wrote:
> In article <3C13A817...@home.com>, rodr...@home.com says...
>
>>I don't think that the comparison holds, I have been to them and see
>>people of all colors, in Puerto Rico is an issue of security (although
>>no evidence indicates they are more secure)
>>
>
> Is there evidence that indicates that they are not?
Proving a negative? Boy you are dumb! Even Franchi knows this is a dumb
comment!
>
>
>>and status (especially class). Here it is a bit more complicated.
>>
>
> You will never cease to amaze me with your talent for holding forth on topics that you do not
> know dick about.
> Security is also an issue for gated communities in the states.
Who said it was not? At least read carefully. BTW, you are narrowing
this to "gated" communities because as usual, you did not even read the
darn article, like always.
> And you know about those covenants (in spanish, we call them "servidumbres en equidad") that
> those gated communities in the states have? Well, they have them in the gated communities in PR
> as well, and they are directed at preserving property values and quality of life.
> So, in Puerto Rico, as in the states, people are moving into these developments for pretty much
> the same reasons: security and quality of life.
>
Given the crime rate in PR, I see some rationale for them, but you can
have CC & R's without being a gated community.
>
Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez
XXX wrote:
> In article <3C13D2C8...@home.com>, rodr...@home.com says...
>
>>Sure, and Colin Powell and Condolezza Rice make the Bush cabinet a truly
>>open and diverse administration.
>>
>
> Wrong comparison, wrong conclusion.
> Aside from the fact that your comment avoids the truth: anyone with the means can buy a house in
> a gated community.
Look, from 1979 to 1999 Middle Income Latino HH increased from 1.4
million to 2.5 million. Yet, we find miniscule numbers of them in these
planned communities, especially in the state where every 1 in 3 person
is Latino, Califas.
BTW, The mean income of Boricuas declined from $35,285 (1989) to $34,777
(1999) this during the economic boom.
What a country! Really existing statehood!
>
>
>>Those are just the most recent.
>>
>
> So what? Just because someone sues, that doesn't mean they're right.
No you are absolutely right, and just because you have a head, does not
mean you can think!
>
>
>>You may be right, I did not see Martians in ND I guess it means they do not exist.
>>
>
>
> Here's where your defective thinking comes to the fore, Victor. I did not say that blacks did
> not exist. What I said was that their absence (or at least the fact that you do not see them) in
> Irvine could be due to the fact that the numbers of blacks in the US are limited, thus one cannot
> expect to see them everywhere.
It seems that bigots don't have a hard time finding them, in this
county, where they are only 2-3% of the population, they are the
majority of the hate crime victims!
El Marques
> In San Juan, everyone is a Boricua...
So then you freely admit that all of the posts that you have written here on
SCPR about "racism in Puerto Rico" are just hogwash? The are no whites, no
blacks, no Tainos, no mulattos, no nothing except "boricuas" in Puerto Rico!
Why do you constantly and so consistently shoot yourself in the foot in each
and every argument, Victor?
El Marques
El Marques
> Look, from 1979 to 1999 Middle Income Latino HH increased
> from 1.4 million to 2.5 million. Yet, we find miniscule numbers
> of them in these planned communities, especially in the state
> where every 1 in 3 person is Latino, Califas.
Could it be because they choose to buy homes close to their communities,
their friends and their relatives? Could it be because they choose not to
move to those gated communities? Could it be that they think that they
would feel like outcasts, and they would rather live somewhere else, where
they are more comfortable?
Once again, Victor shoots off his mouth and shoots himself in the foot!
Maybe he believes that, the same way that we had "forced busing" of students
to dissegregate our schools systems, we should have "forced housing" to
integrate our communities, and not let people just buy a house wherever they
like and wherever they can afford! WHAT AN IDIOT!
El Marques
Jorge Franchi
> Date una vuelta por Palique, alli la gente es mucho mas decente
> que tu y tus personalidades ...
Que queeeeeeeeeeeee?!?!
Usted participa en otro newsgroup/listserv?
Pregunto, cuando carajo usted dedica tiempo a su mujer, familia y trabajo si
aparte de estar meti'o en este grupo cutting & pasting baboserias a tutiplein,
se pasa tambien en el tal Palique?
Jorge Franchi
Jorge Franchi
> So then you freely admit that all of the posts that you have written here on
> SCPR about "racism in Puerto Rico" are just hogwash? The are no whites, no
> blacks, no Tainos, no mulattos, no nothing except "boricuas" in Puerto Rico!
> Why do you constantly and so consistently shoot yourself in the foot in each
> and every argument, Victor?
That guys stupidity is beyond belief!
I now wonder how long will it take for his buddy "menglarde" to come to his
rescue once again.
Jorge Franchi
Jorge Franchi
> BTW, The mean income of Boricuas declined from $35,285 (1989)
> to $34,777 (1999) this during the economic boom.
>
> What a country! Really existing statehood!
Let me see, in PR the the mean income is less than 10K, but in USA is $34K?
Indeed WHAT A COUNTRY ... BRING ON STATEHOOD!!
REALLY EXISTING STATEHOOD!
Toooooooooooooomaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!
SOBERANO MEDIOCRE!!
Jorge Franchi
El Marques
news:9v1eoh$21u$1...@news.fsu.edu...
> Let me see, in PR the the mean income is
> less than 10K, but in USA is $34K?
One more shot into the same foot, eh, Franchi? This Victor is really
unbelievable!
Buscate en Puerto Rico un maestro de escuela, un policia, un empleado
regular de gobierno que se gane $35,000. Y ya veras lo que te va a
contestar el sociologo/economistologo/predictologo Victor - "eso son
promedios, la mayoria gana mucho menos". Pues para que esperar, aqui esta
la respuesta. Por sencilla matematica, es imposible que la mayoria de un
grupo gane "mucho menos" que el promedio, porque eso no cuadra de manera
alguna. Si tienes un promedio de $35,000, significa que algunos ganan mas y
otros menos. Pero para que algunos ganen "mucho menos", tiene que haber un
numero igual que gane "mucho mas", o un grupito menos que gane tanto, que
compense la diferencia entre esa "mayoria que gana mucho menos" y el
promedio. Por ejemplo - 100 personas tienen un promedio de $35,000, si de
esa 100 tienes 50 que ganan $10,000, significa que los otros 50 tienen que
ganar un promedio de $60,000 cada uno para dar un promedio global de $35,000
para el grupo entero. Y con ese grupo de "adinerados" sucede lo mismo - si
dices que de esos 50 hay 25 que ganan $35,000, entonces los otros 25 tienen
que ganar $85,000 cada uno! En fin, mientras mas vueltas le das a estos
numeros que trata de citar Victor para hacer ver a los Estados Unidos como
un villano y un infierno para los Boricuas, peor queda la teoria de Victor
con sus propios numeros! WHAT AN IDIOT!
El Marques
Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez
El Marques wrote:
> "Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez" <rodr...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:3C13F21D...@home.com...
>
>>Look, from 1979 to 1999 Middle Income Latino HH increased
>>from 1.4 million to 2.5 million. Yet, we find miniscule numbers
>>of them in these planned communities, especially in the state
>>where every 1 in 3 person is Latino, Califas.
>>
>
> Could it be because they choose to buy homes close to their communities,
> their friends and their relatives? Could it be because they choose not to
> move to those gated communities? Could it be that they think that they
> would feel like outcasts, and they would rather live somewhere else, where
> they are more comfortable?
Sure, and most of the Blacks and Latinos who were lynched in the United
States got a ladder, tied the rope around their neck and kicked the
ladder just to blame the poor KKK!
>
> Once again, Victor shoots off his mouth and shoots himself in the foot!
> Maybe he believes that, the same way that we had "forced busing" of students
> to dissegregate our schools systems,
Could you explain this term "dissegregate"? Like in "disesperse"? Or
like in "scaitters"?
we should have "forced housing" to
> integrate our communities, and not let people just buy a house wherever they
> like and wherever they can afford! WHAT AN IDIOT!
No I don't think they should "forced housing" on you, your dog house
seems pretty ample now.
>
> El Marques
>
>
Eil Mairkis!
>
XXX
>Otro ejemplo de la depravacion que causa el abuso del alcohol.
Pendejo, el que se la pasa bebe
>
>
>Lee las puercadas que escribes antes de enviarlas ... para esto es que
>te gusta el acceso al Internet?
Desde cuando te importa a ti tres carajos lo que yo hago en el internet?
Y parece que te encantan mis alegadas puercadas, pues no pasas ni un solo mensaje mio sin
contestarlo. Una pena que, aunque tu dices que son "puercadas" no puedes rebatir ni un solo
punto.
XXX
>Wow! What a smart comment!
Indeed it was. Not only that, but an obvious one for anyone who lives down here.
>Ad hominem ... but this is your trademark. I was sure you would come
>back with some asinine remark like this one. You are so predictable it
>is getting to boring. That has NOTHING to do with Dale. But then, If I
>was desperate and did not have any arguments ...
It isn't an ad hominem attack. I provided just two examples of prize winning or "recognized
research" type writings that were later proven to be hoaxes.
You're using that Dale fellow to prove your point, yet provide precious little about what he
actually wrote about. An old and disreputable tactic used by mediocre fuckups such as yourself.
>Your ignorance could probably create a solar eclipse. It's called a
>source, buddy, a source, and a very reputable one. But then, I could
>probably quote Jesus and you'd say, "since he was Jewish we can't
>believe him."
You didn't quote any sources douche bag, you simply mentioned the guy. That's like me saying,
Einstein agrees with me that Victor is a mental screw up" and then I don't mention one thing
about what Einstein wrote.
>Your color is yellow ...
You wish. What really burns you up is that since I write in anonimity, you can't cyberstalk me,
which is what you do with anyone who proves you wrong.
>You provide no evidence so I discount your statement. Of course, racism
>obeys the law! You are so naive!
You want me to go to the property registry to prove my point? Are you fucking insane?
Face it you mental defective, in Puerto Rico, everyone and their grandmother is going into gated
communities, for a variety of reasons.
>In San Juan, everyone is a Boricua,
Really? Are you sure?
Boy, when you hit the sauce, you really get stupid.
>in Orlando, almost everyone seems to
>be ... so Latinos want to join the trend. Thye are status conscious! I'd
>like to see how many would be able to enter some of the gated
>communities in Alabama ... I think they call them penitentiaries!
First of all, it is interesting to see a "diversity consultant" come up with such a racist
statement about the state of Alabama.
Second of all, you just disproved your entire argument by agreeing that latinos are going into
gated communities. Like I said, the reasons for such a trend are many.
XXX
>Proving a negative? Boy you are dumb! Even Franchi knows this is a dumb
>comment!
Actually, the evidence is there you ignorant asshole. I just wanted to prove that you don't have
a clue as to what you're arguing.
Police statistics (which are printed every now and then in the local newspapers) demonstrate that
gated communities have far lower violent crime rate than those that are not.
Another quick way of determining that is by checking the different prices for homes in gated and
non-gated communities. Guess which ones are typically more expensive?
>Who said it was not? At least read carefully. BTW, you are narrowing
>this to "gated" communities because as usual, you did not even read the
>darn article, like always.
Because in PR, the developments that can include covenants are the newer ones, which are gated.
But for many years, condos have had their own covenants, which are pretty strict.
>Given the crime rate in PR, I see some rationale for them, but you can
>have CC & R's without being a gated community.
We've had them for decades in condos. So there, PR has been part of the trend all along. I
guess you're going to have to find some other reason not to include us.
XXX
>
>Look, from 1979 to 1999 Middle Income Latino HH increased from 1.4
>million to 2.5 million. Yet, we find miniscule numbers of them in these
>planned communities, especially in the state where every 1 in 3 person
>is Latino, Califas.
How about this reason: Latinos in California don't like them. Or how about this one: Latinos,
who are generally younger, don't want to live in old folks retirement communities.
>BTW, The mean income of Boricuas declined from $35,285 (1989) to $34,777
>(1999) this during the economic boom.
>
>What a country! Really existing statehood!
Then why do you stay?
BTW, that median income is far higher than in PR, which means those stateside PRs are having a
better go of it than those that stayed on the Island. I guess statehood is a better deal.
>No you are absolutely right, and just because you have a head, does not
>mean you can think!
Well, that's true in your case.
>It seems that bigots don't have a hard time finding them, in this
>county, where they are only 2-3% of the population, they are the
>majority of the hate crime victims!
You see how you fuck yourself up without any help?
In the previous post, I told you that one of the reasons that you might not see that many blacks
in Irvine, is because there might not be that many of them living there. And here you go and
back me up by admitting that you knew that the black population was only 2%.
As for the hate crimes, that statistic doesn't mean a thing, because if you only have 3 hate
crimes, and two of them are against blacks, that means that 66% of all hate crimes were against
blacks, but the fact is that you barely have any hate crimes at all.
Man, it is just amazing how you ALWAYS provide the evidence that shows you up for the liar that
you are.
XXX
>Sure, and most of the Blacks and Latinos who were lynched in the United
>States got a ladder, tied the rope around their neck and kicked the
>ladder just to blame the poor KKK!
One of the guaranteed ways to get Victor to start foaming at the mouth is to dispute one of his
little racist stereotypes about whites.
>Could you explain this term "dissegregate"? Like in "disesperse"? Or
>like in "scaitters"?
Victor, are you actually making fun of someone else's typos? You should not do that, as you
make, on average, about 3-4 per post.
h0mi
"Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez" wrote:
>
> h0mi wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I'm not surprised... I've heard of the phenomenon for a few years, both
> > as part of "smart growth" policies and just part of an effort to create
> > a new community that people would want to live in. And face it... the
> > world was more dangerous even prior to 9/11 than it was years ago.
> > Despite the drops in crime we've experienced in the past 20 years,
> > people feel less safe and secure than before. So we see a push to build
> > a more safe and secure community.
> >
>
> I don't think that the pheomenom in Puerto Rico is similar to what is
> happening here.
I don't know.
> Dale Maharidge, in his 1996 book "The Coming White
> Minority" has a map that shows the pervasive and increasing
> re-segregation of Califas. You would find this book very interesting.
> BTW, before any one questions Dale he is the recipient of the 1990
> Pulitzer prize in Non-Fiction and a great researcher.
>
> Also that fact was documented by Waldinger in "Ethnic Los Angeles." In
> the US the issue of crime is also a "racial" issue. When people think of
> a "criminal" it is usually a person of color. Then it is not suprising
> that people will want to segregate themselves from the perceived
> perpetrators of crimes (it is just a perception because a good
> percentage of crime is intra-racial instead of inter-racial).
Depends on the crime in question. Violent crimes are usually between
friends, families and associates- frequently people of the same ethnic
composition. I can't say property crimes fit the same pattern- I don't
know. I just know that it's not a certainty that they do.
> "Feeling safe" means not being around people of color ...
Only to white racists. And to some of these people, it also means
segregating yourself from so called "White Trash" as well. That is, when
they aren't "white trash" themselves.
To most normal people, be they hispanic or black or white, feeling safe
means living in an area where criminals are not pervasive. That's less
likely to occur in a gated community than in a community which is not
gated.
h0mi
XXX wrote:
>
> In article <3C13AA55...@home.com>, rodr...@home.com says...
>
> >I don't think
>
> You've proven that beyond a shadow of a doubt.
>
> >that the pheomenom in Puerto Rico is similar to what is
> >happening here.
>
> It isn't a phenomenon. It's a way of life in PR. But you wouldn't know about that, Victor,
> since you don't live here.
>
> >Dale Maharidge, in his 1996 book "The Coming White
> >Minority" has a map that shows the pervasive and increasing
> >re-segregation of Califas. You would find this book very interesting.
> >BTW, before any one questions Dale he is the recipient of the 1990
> >Pulitzer prize in Non-Fiction and a great researcher.
>
> So what? Janice Cooke won a non-fiction Pulitzer Prize some time ago, and she was one hell of a
> fraud. And that "academic" who wrote the book which purported to show that colonial americans
> did not own guns, was just recently proven to be a fraud as well, as he distorted evidence and
> falsified his research.
Cooke? I think you mean Beislais ... damn I forgot how it's spelled but
I'm pretty sure it wasn't Cooke.
> Victor engages here in one of the oldest argumentative tricks there is: Since "X" says it, and
> "X" is well respected, then it must be true.
Truth is, it doesn't matter whether X is well respected or not. The NY
Times, Washington Post and LA Times are all "well respected" newspapers,
and yet articles in these papers are disparaged, when convienant, by the
left and the right in this country... usually more often by the right
claiming a left wing bias on their parts.
<snip>
> >Also that fact was documented by Waldinger in "Ethnic Los Angeles." In
> >the US the issue of crime is also a "racial" issue. When people think of
> >a "criminal" it is usually a person of color.
>
> Does that include "people of color" themselves (and what about this bs about "people of color"??
> Doesn't everyone have a color? Or is this just another pathetic attempt from the PC set to put
> all "minorities" into one bag?)?
I mentioned in my post "only by white racists."
I forgot about the phenomenon when Hispanics or Blacks will also
segregate themselves into mostly white areas in an attempt to get away
from other hispanics or blacks. It was silly and stupid of me to suggest
that black or hispanic racists cannot exist, or exhibit that trait.
> >Then it is not suprising
> >that people will want to segregate themselves from the perceived
> >perpetrators of crimes (it is just a perception because a good
> >percentage of crime is intra-racial instead of inter-racial).
> >
> >"Feeling safe" means not being around people of color ...
>
> Well, now Victor comes out with his real argument: that gated commuties are the new way that
> whites use to stay away from "people of color".
This happens only if the cost of these new homes is exhorbantly priced
and prevents people of color from buying homes there. Fact is, the
developers want people's money and don't generally care whether its a
white, black or asian or latino person buying the home. But lets also be
aware that there aren't very many latinos or blacks who can afford to
buy a 400,000 home.
Economically speaking, people of color are lagging behind whites. It has
been suggested this is proof of existing racism today. I disagree. This
is proof of a legacy of racism that once existed and was pervasive. The
gap between white households and nonwhite households cannot be expected
to disappear overnight considering the gaps that were pervasive in
society- income, housing, education... you name it. It has to start with
education, which would take well over a dozen years for equalization to
occur, unless one puts obstacles in the way of whites in an attempt to
'even things out'.
I'm not naive enough to suggest that there is no racism anywhere today,
be it in employment, education, housing, or anywhere. But to suggest it
is systematic and pervasive suggests that our civil rights laws, and
system of compensation for violation of the same has failed. And if
these laws have failed, I don't see how expanding them or their reach
will improve things if the current set of laws have failed.
El Marques
news:3C1472FC...@yahooo.com...
> I'm not naive enough to suggest that there is no racism
> anywhere today, be it in employment, education, housing,
> or anywhere. But to suggest it is systematic and pervasive
> suggests that our civil rights laws, and system of compensation
> for violation of the same has failed. And if these laws have
> failed, I don't see how expanding them or their reach will
> improve things if the current set of laws have failed.
But the problem is that Victor doesn't give a damn about the laws, it's all
about THE MONEY! Victor needs to make a living by going to these people who
can't afford a $400,000 home, who have been stuck as cashiers and warehouse
box-handlers for 20 or 30 years and tell them that it is not because they
dropped out of school in 8th grade, that it is not because they can't follow
intructions, or even read them correctly. He gets his money from telling
them that it is because of the color of their skin. And these poor people
are not even bright enough to figure out that the guy who is telling them
that "whitey keeps them down" is a person who has their same color, with the
same ethnic extraction, and who just happens to be a College professor with
a Doctorate, with a $300,000 house in a high-middle income neighborhood in
Irvine, California! He seems to have made it just fine with his skin-color
and his "espanich ack-sent", yet his victims (those who pay him to preach
hate) don't even see that! He desperately needs to continue this
"victimhood system" charade, in order to support his lavish lifestyle (not
to mention his obvious drinking habits). Funny guy!
El Marques
El Marques
news:9v1kph$c4hes$5...@ID-113656.news.dfncis.de...
> As for the hate crimes, that statistic doesn't mean a thing,
> because if you only have 3 hate crimes, and two of them
> are against blacks, that means that 66% of all hate crimes
> were against blacks, but the fact is that you barely have
> any hate crimes at all. Man, it is just amazing how you ALWAYS
> provide the evidence that shows you up for the liar that you are.
He doesn't know any better, he lacks the intelectual capacity and the basic
reading-comprehension skills necessary to understand most of the same
articles which he posts here, to the point that many of them completely
negate the argument that he interjects in his preface to the copied article.
Is it any wonder he is still an Associate Professor at the age of 55?
El Marques
Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez
sense if you KNEW Maharidge had been accused of misrepresenting or
distorting facts. What you did was akin to saying, "Since Perez Esq. was
caught lying, Mr. Miller might be a liar too." Hmmm...maybe there is
some truth to your argument? Naaaah!
The your following argument is that I failed to summarize a 400 page
book for you?
You are so transparent maybe Sila should hire you!
XXX wrote:
> In article <3C13EF6A...@home.com>, rodr...@home.com says...
>
>
>>Wow! What a smart comment!
>>
>
> Indeed it was. Not only that, but an obvious one for anyone who lives down here.
>
>
>
>
>>Ad hominem ... but this is your trademark. I was sure you would come
>>back with some asinine remark like this one. You are so predictable it
>>is getting to boring. That has NOTHING to do with Dale. But then, If I
>>was desperate and did not have any arguments ...
>>
>
> It isn't an ad hominem attack. I provided just two examples of prize winning or "recognized
> research" type writings that were later proven to be hoaxes.
> You're using that Dale fellow to prove your point, yet provide precious little about what he
> actually wrote about. An old and disreputable tactic used by mediocre fuckups such as yourself.
>
>
>>Your ignorance could probably create a solar eclipse. It's called a
>>source, buddy, a source, and a very reputable one. But then, I could
>>probably quote Jesus and you'd say, "since he was Jewish we can't
>>believe him."
>>
>
> You didn't quote any sources douche bag, you simply mentioned the guy. That's like me saying,
> Einstein agrees with me that Victor is a mental screw up" and then I don't mention one thing
> about what Einstein wrote.
I guess for you a source is a person who supports what YOU believe.
>
>
>>Your color is yellow ...
>>
>
> You wish. What really burns you up is that since I write in anonimity, you can't cyberstalk me,
> which is what you do with anyone who proves you wrong.
No one cyberstalks anyone, and why would I care about a two bit lawyer
like yourself? I just wish you stayed with the arguments without all
these smokescreens and innuendoes.
But then, your behavior is "turba consistent."
>
>
>>You provide no evidence so I discount your statement. Of course, racism
>>obeys the law! You are so naive!
>>
>
> You want me to go to the property registry to prove my point? Are you fucking insane?
> Face it you mental defective, in Puerto Rico, everyone and their grandmother is going into gated
> communities, for a variety of reasons.
Tricky dick, now he shifts the terrain of the argument, who the hell is
talking about Puerto Rico? Remember the thread? "The New Planned
Segregation"? It's the US we were talking about, I guess you had a
"senior moment"!
>
>
>>In San Juan, everyone is a Boricua,
>>
>
> Really? Are you sure?
> Boy, when you hit the sauce, you really get stupid.
>
>
>>in Orlando, almost everyone seems to
>>be ... so Latinos want to join the trend. Thye are status conscious! I'd
>>like to see how many would be able to enter some of the gated
>>communities in Alabama ... I think they call them penitentiaries!
>>
>
> First of all, it is interesting to see a "diversity consultant" come up with such a racist
> statement about the state of Alabama.
You never cease to amaze me, calling the penitentiaries "gated
communities" is racist? You sound like Goebbles, night is day, day is
night! That is the sarcastic way African Americans call penitentiaries
in the South, dodo!
> Second of all, you just disproved your entire argument by agreeing that latinos are going into
> gated communities. Like I said, the reasons for such a trend are many.
Again, this time, you might want to read the article and my comments,
it's mostly about California and Arizona. Orlando has close to 100,000
Boricuas, most of whom are middle class in a state where Latinos are
mostly middle class and where Cubans, to their merit, changed the rules
of the game for Latinos (at least partially). Racial dynamics are quite
another animal in Florida.
>
>
>
>
Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez
h0mi wrote:
>
> XXX wrote:
>
>
>>So what? Janice Cooke won a non-fiction Pulitzer Prize some time ago, and she was one hell of a
>>fraud. And that "academic" who wrote the book which purported to show that colonial americans
>>did not own guns, was just recently proven to be a fraud as well, as he distorted evidence and
>>falsified his research.
>>
>
> Cooke? I think you mean Beislais ... damn I forgot how it's spelled but
> I'm pretty sure it wasn't Cooke.
Peter Miller is having a bad hair weekend.
>
>
>>Victor engages here in one of the oldest argumentative tricks there is: Since "X" says it, and
>>"X" is well respected, then it must be true.
>>
>
> Truth is, it doesn't matter whether X is well respected or not. The NY
> Times, Washington Post and LA Times are all "well respected" newspapers,
> and yet articles in these papers are disparaged, when convienant, by the
> left and the right in this country... usually more often by the right
> claiming a left wing bias on their parts.
First of all, there was a recent study of the press which challenged the
assertion that newspapers were liberal. I don't think they are but if
you are extremely conservative even the Orange County Register
(California) might seem too liberal.
First of all, I just want to remind you all of "context." This is a
newsgroup where people are talking about shit, we are being bombarded
with pornographic messages and discussion about metaphysics. If you were
to write something for a newspaper you are required to follow some
standard of accuracy. If you submit a scholarly article the same,
particularly when it is a refereed journal. But mistakes happen, but
most of the time these systems work quite well. Unfortunately, we tend
to blow out of proportion (and tend to more easily remember) those
events that go against the grain. Especially when it is expedient for us
to recall them in the context of what was initially a serious dialogue.
That is Miller's style. He may cloak himself, dress as a woman, wear
panties and he still will be himself because it is ingrained in his core.
So I find it interesting that a person who does not support anything he
says, Mr. XXX, Mr. Who, Miller whatever personality he chooses to be,
demands that from the rest of us.
>
> <snip>
>
>>>Also that fact was documented by Waldinger in "Ethnic Los Angeles." In
>>>the US the issue of crime is also a "racial" issue. When people think of
>>>a "criminal" it is usually a person of color.
>>>
>>Does that include "people of color" themselves (and what about this bs about "people of color"??
>>Doesn't everyone have a color? Or is this just another pathetic attempt from the PC set to put
>>all "minorities" into one bag?)?
>>
>
> I mentioned in my post "only by white racists."
>
> I forgot about the phenomenon when Hispanics or Blacks will also
> segregate themselves into mostly white areas in an attempt to get away
> from other hispanics or blacks. It was silly and stupid of me to suggest
> that black or hispanic racists cannot exist, or exhibit that trait.
>
If you read some of my old postings about this subject, I have clearly
said that in the US we are ALL racially prejudiced. Every time I hear
someone say I don't have a "prejudiced bone in my body" I hide waiting
for lightning to fall.
Also, as I have said dozens of time before, the difference between being
"racist" (except when used colloquially) and racially prejudiced (in my
work, in most of race critical theory etc.) is which group's racial
prejudice is enforced, reinforced and reproduced by society's
institutions (I am not referring to organizations but to social
institutions like the educational system, criminal justice system,
economy etc.). Whichever group is dominant in a particular society, its
likes and dislikes (and racial prejudices) will be embedded in its basic
institutions. Which is why in Uganda some years ago Asians were expelled
by the African government. Strong racial animosity existed between
Asians and Blacks, but blacks controlled the basic institutions,
including the armed forces and the police.
>
>>>Then it is not suprising
>>>that people will want to segregate themselves from the perceived
>>>perpetrators of crimes (it is just a perception because a good
>>>percentage of crime is intra-racial instead of inter-racial).
>>>
>>>"Feeling safe" means not being around people of color ...
>>>
>>Well, now Victor comes out with his real argument: that gated commuties are the new way that
>>whites use to stay away from "people of color".
>>
>
> This happens only if the cost of these new homes is exhorbantly priced
> and prevents people of color from buying homes there. Fact is, the
> developers want people's money and don't generally care whether its a
> white, black or asian or latino person buying the home. But lets also be
> aware that there aren't very many latinos or blacks who can afford to
> buy a 400,000 home.
Of course we don't live in 1954, but "steering" is still pervasive. You
never know you are being steered unless you know how another person of a
different racial background but with your same credit history and income
is treated. 4-5 years ago racial audit testers were sent to apartments
in Orange County (Califas) and found a serious pattern of
discrimination. The case is still in the courts and is only one of many
similar cases. In Chicago there are many instances racial audits with
the same result. In fact there is a study some in san Diego some years
back. Every time they do a racial audit they find a patter of racial
discrimination that goes like this: Most discriminated, Blacks, second
most discriminated Latinos (especially those that look whatever a Latino
looks like.). Unfortunately, now we are seeing instance of
discrimination by Asian and Latino landlords of Blacks.
If a person is racially prejudiced and has no awareness, and has access
to some power, he/she will act on that attitude.
>
> Economically speaking, people of color are lagging behind whites. It has
> been suggested this is proof of existing racism today. I disagree. This
> is proof of a legacy of racism that once existed and was pervasive. The
> gap between white households and nonwhite households cannot be expected
> to disappear overnight considering the gaps that were pervasive in
> society- income, housing, education... you name it. It has to start with
> education, which would take well over a dozen years for equalization to
> occur, unless one puts obstacles in the way of whites in an attempt to
> 'even things out'.
>
> I'm not naive enough to suggest that there is no racism anywhere today,
> be it in employment, education, housing, or anywhere. But to suggest it
> is systematic and pervasive suggests that our civil rights laws, and
> system of compensation for violation of the same has failed. And if
> these laws have failed, I don't see how expanding them or their reach
> will improve things if the current set of laws have failed.
Of course, the United States has taken incredible steps in making the US
a more open society (something Puerto Rico needs to do but the denial
about racism is worse!) but it's an ongoing project. Racial
discrimination in subtle yet powerful ways is still pervasive (studies
of hotels, car sales, mortgage lending, job discrimination, even car
rental evidence it quite clearly. The problem is that we are still stuck
in thinking that most of the racial discrimination is of the kind we a
person wear a white (or a blue) hood and beats on Blacks. Laws have
pushed it underground, but it is still there... ask Mr. Byrd who was
lynched a few years ago in Texas. Or the American Patrol anti Mexican
fanatics.
>
Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez
Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez
XXX wrote:
> In article <3C13F067...@home.com>, rodr...@home.com says...
>
>
>>Proving a negative? Boy you are dumb! Even Franchi knows this is a dumb
>>comment!
>>
>
> Actually, the evidence is there you ignorant asshole. I just wanted to prove that you don't have
> a clue as to what you're arguing.
> Police statistics (which are printed every now and then in the local newspapers) demonstrate that
> gated communities have far lower violent crime rate than those that are not.
I love this one, what was the confidence level of this study you did?
Particularly in light of many articles about how the "massage" the
statistics in Puerto Rico? Here in Irvine we hardly have any crime
according to the statistics, guess why? Because many "incidents" are
handled very differently because enforcement among upper middle class
people is quite different. Some white kids attacked a Latino family and
the cops drove the kids to the parent's so they would be punished. That
"crime' does not appear in the police data.
But I am sure that the residents of a "gated community" in Puerto Rico
would never get preferential treatment, especially if it might affect
real estat prices.
Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez
XXX wrote:
> In article <3C13F21D...@home.com>, rodr...@home.com says...
>
>>Look, from 1979 to 1999 Middle Income Latino HH increased from 1.4
>>million to 2.5 million. Yet, we find miniscule numbers of them in these
>>planned communities, especially in the state where every 1 in 3 person
>>is Latino, Califas.
>>
>
> How about this reason: Latinos in California don't like them. Or
how about this one: Latinos,
> who are generally younger, don't want to live in old folks retirement
communities.
Or how about this, they are steered into other more "appropriate"
neighborhoods where they will not "lower the real estate value"?
>
>
>>BTW, The mean income of Boricuas declined from $35,285 (1989) to $34,777
>>(1999) this during the economic boom.
>>
>>What a country! Really existing statehood!
>>
>
> Then why do you stay?
> BTW, that median income is far higher than in PR, which means those
stateside PRs are having a
> better go of it than those that stayed on the Island. I guess
statehood is a better deal.
First of all, the cost of living here is much higher. Unless you live in
a trailer park in the desert $34,000 is not much to live on, just to
barely survive (taxes!). If you have kids, forget about it! Average
rents in a decent neighborhood in Southern Califas are between 800-1,200
for a two bedroom apartment, 200/month for a car and groceries and you
can drive back and forth from work to your house and figure out a way of
paying the gas, electric bill, and food, clothing....
But since I know you are a bright old balding lawyer, you know what a
"mean," means? It's basically an average. Averages, even moron Franchi
can attest to this, are sensitive to high and low numbers. So that if
there is a significant number of people with incomes more than $100,000
it biases the average.
Guess what, many Latinos, including Puerto Ricans (mostly highly
educated in PR or the US), lighter skin, tend to do better in terms of
income. In fact, the numbers of Latinos earning more than $140,000 a
year almost doubled from 1979-1999 (163 thousand to 490 thousands).
While this is a great achievement, despite patterns of discrimination,
those who earn less than $40,000 and who are a larger number (7 million)
grew to 16 million (120%).
>
>
>>No you are absolutely right, and just because you have a head, does not
>>mean you can think!
>>
>
> Well, that's true in your case.
>
>
>
>>It seems that bigots don't have a hard time finding them, in this
>>county, where they are only 2-3% of the population, they are the
>>majority of the hate crime victims!
>>
>
> You see how you fuck yourself up without any help?
> In the previous post, I told you that one of the reasons that you
might not see that many blacks
> in Irvine, is because there might not be that many of them living
there. And here you go and
> back me up by admitting that you knew that the black population was
only 2%.
> As for the hate crimes, that statistic doesn't mean a thing, because
if you only have 3 hate
> crimes, and two of them are against blacks, that means that 66% of
all hate crimes were against
> blacks, but the fact is that you barely have any hate crimes at all.
> Man, it is just amazing how you ALWAYS provide the evidence that
shows you up for the liar that
> you are.
Your "senior moments" seem to be occurring quite often lately, get off
that scotch you and your cochino friend Jaime love so much. You are
burning the few good neurons you have left.
I will list these so even you can recall them later...
1. I was referring to Orange County (in Irvine is even less).
2. In Orange County (2000) 1202 incidents were reported.
1. 18% (21) de los incidentes fueron contra
los Negros...
2. 1.65 fueron contra blancos (2)
3. 7% Fueron Latinos (8).
Anything else you might want to add, counselor?
>
>
Jorge Franchi
> BTW, The mean income of Boricuas declined from
> $35,285 (1989) to $34,777 (1999) this during the
> economic boom.
>
> What a country! Really existing statehood!
Oiga Dr. Rodriguez, por que usted no comenta que en la primera pagina del
articulo donde usted saco esta informacion dice:
"U.S. Hispanics are more numerous -- and more prosperous -- than ever"
Jorge Franchi
Jorge Franchi
> He doesn't know any better, he lacks the intelectual capacity and the basic
> reading-comprehension skills necessary to understand most of the same
> articles which he posts here, to the point that many of them completely
> negate the argument that he interjects in his preface to the copied article.
> Is it any wonder he is still an Associate Professor at the age of 55?
"Como he predicho" ... el tipo es un SOBERANO MEDIOCRE.
Jorge Franchi
El Marques
> "U.S. Hispanics are more numerous -- and more prosperous -- than ever"
Porque se le cae el cuentito ese de que en USA los tienen de esclavos y que
en USA "no nos quieren"! Acuerdate que Victor se gana la vida hablando y
metiendo miedo sobre los "gringos" como si todos fueran rubitos y de ojos
azules, y convenientemente oculta el hecho de que igual de "gringos" son
Oscar de la Hoya, Wesley Snipes, Michael Dukakis, Sylvester Stalone, Gloria
Estefan y hasta Victor Rodriguez! WHAT AN IDIOT!
El Marques
El Marques
> David Duke could not have said it better!
Here we have another example of Victor truly meaning to say - "El Marques is
right, and there is nothing that I can say to prove otherwise"! Thank you,
Victor! Once again, WHAT AN IDIOT!
El Marques
El Marques
> First of all, the cost of living here is much higher.
OH MY GOD! Will the wonders ever cease? Now we have this "expert" in every
field under the sun telling us that the cost of living in California, or
anywhere else in the United States is "higher" that in Puerto Rico? WHAT AN
IDIOT! I wonder if he knows that the only place in the Mainland US with a
higher cost of living than Puerto Rico is Washington DC? In fact, not even
Alaska nor Hawaii have a higher cost of living, as determined by the Federal
Government and its different entities and agencies. But Victor, when
cornered, will spout any IDIOCY that he can concoct in order to try to dig
himself out of the hole, and he consistently ends up digging himself deeper
and deeper! Once again, WHAT AN IDIOT!
El Marques
El Marques
> 2. In Orange County (2000) 1202 incidents were reported.
> 1. 18% (21) de los incidentes fueron contra
> los Negros...
> 2. 1.65 fueron contra blancos (2)
> 3. 7% Fueron Latinos (8).
> Anything else you might want to add, counselor?
I am not a "counselor", but I don't think that you need to be one to
recognize an IDIOT who can't even get his numbers straight. You say that
Orange County (Population 2,846,289
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06/06059.html ) had 1202 incidents
of "hate crimes", and then you say that 18% (21) were against blacks. Since
when is 21 equal to 18% of 1202? Is this what they teach at those community
colleges from which you graduated? Could it be that the REAL number is
closer to 120? And now that we are on that subject, do you really think
that 120 incidents in a population of almost 3 million is that significant?
Not to mention the fact that in California, if you look at black person
wrong, it is considered a "hate crime"! Maybe you need to step away from
the computer and the bottle for a while, Victor, because you are setting new
standards of STUPIDITY with every new post! WHAT AN IDIOT!
El Marques
Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez
que tiene el puerco federal este.
Y si es un numero significativo, porque como dicen las agencias
policiacas "it is just the tip of the iceberg."
Cuantos ocurren en Puerto Rico?
El Marques
> Dana Point is a a good example of this, the mexican
> community lives in one part of the city and the rest of
> the city is made of gated communities predominantly
> inhabited by whites and a few people of color.
"A few people of color"? Didn't you say that these communities were
"segregated"? Oh, I get it - At the weekly Ku Klux Klan/Resident Board
Meetings at Dana Point, the Grand Wizard said "Secretary Bubba, I want the
minutes to reflect that the niggers can buy houses here, but we don't want
no goddamn mojado beaners"? Victor, you really put your foot in your mouth
every single time! WHAT AN IDIOT!
El Marques
El Marques
> Errata: 122 incidentes, no 1202....el cero es la cantidad
> de neuronas que tiene el puerco federal este.
Miren a ver quien fue el que cometio el error garrafal escribiendo una cosa
tan sencilla, y pueden ver quien es en realidad el que en su cerebro no le
quedan neuronas operantes! Lo cierto es que Victor "errata" de verdad!
El Marques
Jorge Franchi
anti-americano." jijiji :-))
Jorge Franchi
"El Marques" <el_mar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9v1g05$c7378$1...@ID-110806.news.dfncis.de...
Jorge Franchi
anti-americano." jijiji :-))
Jorge Franchi
"El Marques" <el_mar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9v34eq$ck6dq$1...@ID-110806.news.dfncis.de...
Jorge Franchi
> Errata: 122 incidentes, no 1202....el cero es la cantidad de neuronas
> que tiene el puerco federal este.
>
> Y si es un numero significativo, porque como dicen las agencias
> policiacas "it is just the tip of the iceberg."
>
> Cuantos ocurren en Puerto Rico?
Oiga Dr. Rodriguez su "asqueroso trasero anti-americano" ya debe tener un cayo
de tanto que se lo han pateado, especialmente hoy!!
Indiscutiblemente, usted es un SOBERANO MEDIOCRE!!
'Dito!
Jorge Franchi
Jorge Franchi
Al Profesorducho le acaban de patear una vez mas "su asqueroso trasero
anti-americano." jijiji :-))
Jorge Franchi
"El Marques" <el_mar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9v35i0$chgs0$1...@ID-110806.news.dfncis.de...
Observador
al que no lo conesca le dice que su nombre es
Dr. Vicotor Rodrigson ! Y se pinta el pelo de Rubio y usa
contactos Azules y tenga un condo en una "gated community",
y deice que Ud " Now Sabiendo Low Que Es Chu-Chi-Fritows,
o Phir-agua, o Mavi Juice, y pregunte Que Siendo Arrowz Con
Gan-doo-less ???"y que pregunte "Pitorrow ! Pitorrow !, Que siendo
Pitorrow ? y el Moe-fun-go, Que Siendo Eso ???"
Vamos a olvidarnos de la politica por un ratito, y emesar a gozar
las navidades como los Monos, de palo en palo !!!
On Fri, 07 Dec 2001 15:52:02 GMT, "Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez"
<rodr...@home.com> wrote:
><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
><html>
>A medida que la poblacion envejece, a medida que la poblacion se torna
>mas diversa, racial y culturalmente, se van trazando nuevas formas de segregacion,
>mas sutiles pero no por eso menos peligrosas.
><p>-------------------
><br>
><p>The growth of private communities
><br>
><br>
>AMERICA'S NEW UTOPIAS
><br>
><br> Private housing associations increasingly
>lay down the laws that
><br> middle-class Americans live by. What are they doing
>to the country?
><br>
><br> Dateline: ANTHEM, IRVINE, LEISURE WORLD, SUN CITY AND
>VALENCIA
><br>
><br> HEAD north out of Phoenix, Arizona, up the 1-17. Drive
>past the signs
><br> for Happy Valley Road, Carefree Highway and, less auspiciously,
>one
><br> advising you not to pick up hitchhikers because you are
>passing a
><br> federal prison. Eventually you come to one for "Anthem
>by Del Webb".
><br>
><br> Anthem feels more like a luxury holiday resort than a
>town. It
><br> includes a water park, with Disneyesque water slides,
>a children's
><br> railway, hiking trails, tennis courts, a rock-climbing
>wall, two golf
><br> courses, several spotless parks, a supermarket mall, two
>churches, a
><br> school and, for those who want a little more security,
>the Anthem
><br> Country Club, a gated (and guarded) community.
><br>
><br> Anthem, which is planned to have 12,500 homes, opened
>in 1999. Its
><br> houses and roads look spotless. One reason for this is
>that everybody
><br> who buys a house in Anthem has to follow certain covenants,
>conditions
><br> and restrictions (CC&RS), governing everything from
>the colour of your
><br> house to whether you can put your car on blocks outside
>it (you
><br> can't). Everybody in Anthem, except the construction workers,
>seems to
><br> be white.
><br>
><br> Anthem sounds like an exclusive enclave for the rich.
>Far from it:
><br> homes start at a distinctly modest $155,000. Even the
>residents of the
><br> Anthem Country Club hardly seem posh. They tend to laugh
>at the rules,
><br> regarding them, like the long commute to Phoenix, as part
>of the
><br> price. Why did one young mother come here? "Because it's
>safe, because
><br> there are activities, because it's, well, like us."
><br>
><br> Indeed, Anthem is not bucking a trend, but joining it.
>In many of the
><br> fastest-growing parts of America, development is being
>driven by
><br> "master-planned communities" of one sort or another. In
>big cities
><br> half the new home sales are in association-managed communities,
><br> according to the Community Associations Institute. Altogether,
>some
><br> 47m people-one in six Americans-live in 18m homes in 230,000
><br> communities and pay around $35 billion in fees every year.
>Around
><br> 1.25m people serve on community-association boards.
><br>
><br> Nowadays, whoever you are, there is probably a community
>planned with
><br> you in mind. In Nevada, a 55-acre community called Front
>Sight,
><br> featuring streets with names like Second Amendment Drive
>and Sense of
><br> Duty Way, is being built for gun enthusiasts (people who
>buy an acre
><br> plot get lifetime use of the 22 planned ranges, an Uzi
>machinegun and
><br> a safari in Africa). In Baton Rouge, Louisiana, one gated
>community
><br> seems to have been taken over by black rap stars. In poor
>areas of
><br> Chicago, residents have set up gated communities to ward
>off crime.
><br> Though most of these places are in the west and the south,
>they crop
><br> up all over the country.
><br>
><br> Legally speaking, there are three different kinds of association.
>The
><br> commonest, about 6o% of the total, are home-owner associations:
>a
><br> house buyer also becomes a member of an association that
>owns the
><br> common areas, levies dues and sets rules. Another 30%
>or so are
><br> condominiums typically flats in a single building-where
>the whole
><br> building is owned by a condominium association. The remaining
>8% are
><br> co-operatives, which are like condos, except that the
>owners have
><br> shares in the co-op; most of these are in New York. Of
>all these, some
><br> 20,000 units, housing 8m people, are gated communities.
><br>
><br> The CC&RS vary. In some cases, they just govern how
>you sell your
><br> house. But the list of rules seems to be getting longer.
>Some
><br> residents have to cough up for maintaining the roads,
>pavements and
><br> street lights, looking after the parks and providing security.
>A
><br> maximum size for dogs--usually 30lbs--is increasingly
>common. Leisure
><br> World, California, has its own television station. The
>proliferation
><br> of CC&RS is driven by the trend towards master-planned
>communities
><br> (like Anthem), where the developer tries to create not
>just a cluster
><br> of homes but a way of life.
><br>
><br> The two models for master-planned communities both date
>back to the
><br> 1960s: Irvine, in southern California, and Sun City, outside
>Phoenix.
><br> The whole of Irvine was built by one firm, the Irvine
>Company, which
><br> says confidently that its present population of 200,000
>should double
><br> in the next 20 years. The company presides over Irvine
>in an avuncular
><br> manner. Apart from laying down the CC&RS, it lures
>in businesses (the
><br> Irvine Spectrum business park is one of the fastest-growing
>in the
><br> country), and in 1961 it gave 1,000 acres to set up the
>local branch
><br> of the University of California. Irvine's 75,000 homes
>are divided
><br> into 25 villages (some gated, most not) which collect
>the dues and
><br> watch over the rules.
><br>
><br> The result, argues the Irvine Company, is "smart growth".
>Whereas many
><br> Californians spend hours commuting in their cars, 60%
>of Irvine
><br> Spectrum's workers live within 15 minutes of their jobs.
>Unplanned
><br> towns tend to eat into parks, but 40% of Irvine's space
>will remain
><br> unbuilt-on forever. And then there are all those nice
>little things.
><br> Graffiti are quickly removed; there are no billboards
>on the freeways;
><br> construction workers have to spray water to keep down
>the dust.
><br>
><br> Sun City, the other great model, is a town of 46,000 people
>built by
><br> Del Webb on the other side of Phoenix from Anthem. This
>is a
><br> retirement community, still probably the main section
>of the market.
><br> Retiring to one of these communities (Sun City alone has
>bred a dozen
><br> places with the same name) has become almost a routine
>part of
><br> middle-class life.
><br>
><br> Many of these towns require at least one person in each
>house to be 55
><br> or older, and exclude children. Leisure World, another
>pioneer from
><br> the 196os, has 20,000 people with an average age of 77.
>The west is
><br> littered with elderly Chicagoans who left the Windy City
>because of
><br> the cold and now can't stop moaning about their air-conditioning
><br> bills. Even Rabbit Angstrom, John Updike's American Everyman,
>ended up
><br> in a Florida condo.
><br>
><br> But the retirement market is changing. Witness the newest
>Sun City
><br> outside Phoenix-a computerised, Starbucked, multi-gym
>affair aimed at
><br> "active adults". By 2010, there will be 75m Americans
>aged 55 or more.
><br> People now live about 15 years longer than when the first
>Sun City was
><br> built, but most of the surge in numbers by 2010 will come
>from the 76m
><br> members of the baby-boom generation, now moving towards
>retirement.
><br>
><br> The older sort of retirement community is not exactly
>a senile nursing
><br> home (there were two dozen complaints about couples having
>sex
><br> outdoors at Sun City West last year, the average age of
>the offenders
><br> being 73). But the baby-boomers represent a new challenge.
>Zoomers-Del
><br> Webb's name for the first group of retiring boomers-prefer
>to retire
><br> early (Del Webb's research shows one in three planning
>to retire
><br> before 60), but without giving up work completely. Retirement
>for them
><br> will be a third age, still full of assorted activities.
><br>
><br> Why they keep growing
><br>
><br> Demographics partly explains the growth of planned communities.
>But
><br> there are two deeper forces at work: American Utopianism,
>and distrust
><br> of government.
><br>
><br> Evan McKenzie, a professor at the University of Illinois
>in Chicago
><br> and author of "Privatopia" (Yale University Press, 1994),
>argues that,
><br> whereas European Utopians tended to concentrate on changing
>the
><br> society around them, American ones preferred to go off
>and create a
><br> new world somewhere else. Some cities-on-a-hill have been
>built by
><br> religious fervour. More often, immigrants simply want
>to use America's
><br> empty space to create a better life. Contemplating the
><br> "uncontaminated" wilderness of the west, Thomas Paine
>once mused, "We
><br> have it in our power to begin the world all over again."
><br>
><br> A similar optimism, if not quite so elegantly phrased,
>litters the
><br> literature of planned communities. The other side of the
>coin is
><br> pessimism about-and often disdain for-the services that
>public cities
><br> provide. The commonest worry is security (hence all those
>gates,
><br> though there is not much evidence that gated communities
>are safer
><br> than non-gated ones). But there are also concerns about
>education,
><br> health care, transport: everything the public sector is
>supposed to
><br> provide.
><br>
><br> Compare Valencia, a fast-growing "private" city an hour
>north of Los
><br> Angeles, with the San Fernando Valley, which is the northern
>part of
><br> that city, and has provided around a quarter of Valencia's
>42,000
><br> people. Children in the San Fernando Valley are condemned
>to schools
><br> run by L.A'S notorious Unified School District; Valencia's
>schools are
><br> excellent. People walk in the Valley only if they run
>out of petrol;
><br> Valencia has 25 miles of paseos for people to jog and
>bike along.
><br> Crime is high in the Valley; Valencia is part of Santa
>Clairita, one
><br> of the safest cities in the country. Thanks to smart growth,
><br> two-thirds of the homes in Valencia are within a quarter
>of a mile of
><br> school, shops and library. If only, moan Angelenos.
><br>
><br> Joel Kotkin, author of "The New Geography" (Random House,
>2000), calls
><br> the rise of places like Valencia "an escape to sanity"
>from the
><br> corruption and inefficiency of big-city government. Community
><br> associations took off in California in the 1970s, the
>same decade as
><br> the passing of Proposition 13, which cut taxes for local
>government.
><br> And their growth has also coincided with that of private
>schools and
><br> private security guards; the latter now out-number the
>"public" police
><br> by four to one.
><br>
><br> GRAPH: Private dwelling; Source: Community
>Associations Institute
><br>
><br> Private dwelling;
>Source: Community Associations Institute
><br>
><br> So are planned communities a good thing? For the Americans
>inside
><br> them, the answer is usually yes. "Do I like being told
>that I have to
><br> warn the security guards that I am going to have a party,
>or that I
><br> cannot put up a basketball hoop in my driveway?" asks
>one Irvineite.
><br> "Of course I don't. But it's not something that keeps
>me awake at
><br> night." There is a widespread feeling that housing-association
>boards
><br> attract the worst busybodies in town. Yet still the queue
>of
><br> applicants goes on growing.
><br>
><br> The public-private schism
><br>
><br> What about America as a whole? These are, still, mainly
>white places.
><br> In five days The Economist met only one black resident
>and no Latinos
><br> in a string of planned communities across the west and
>the southwest.
><br> This may change, as America's middle class grows steadily
>more
><br> multi-coloured; but for now the juxtaposition of white
>Sun Cities and
><br> Latino local schools in Arizona is strange, even troubling.
><br>
><br> A more general worry is that a growing part of the middle
>class is
><br> abandoning the state: living on private roads, sending
>its children to
><br> private schools, paying for its own private police force,
>playing golf
><br> at private clubs. Why bother supporting public services
>when you get
><br> all yours delivered privately? And what about all those
>poorer people,
><br> stuck with public housing, public schools and public transport?
>From
><br> the right, Charles Murray has talked of America's coming
>"caste
><br> society'', with old-style cities becoming like Indian
>reservations.
><br> From the left, Robert Reich fears a secession of the successful.
><br>
><br> This is an exaggeration. There are occasional examples
>of selfish
><br> behaviour: some elderly gated communities have voted not
>to let public
><br> schools within their walls. But there is no evidence that
>whites in
><br> planned communities are any more hostile to government
>spending than
><br> those outside. The mayor of Irvine, Larry Agran (a left-wing
>Democrat
><br> who once ran for president), says the people of Irvine
>are far more
><br> involved in both their state and local governments than
>people in Los
><br> Angeles, where he used to live.
><br>
><br> To be sure, the growth of planned communities can eat
>into the
><br> authority of the state. Robert Nelson, of the University
>of Maryland,
><br> points to two examples. The CC&RS trump a good deal
>of municipal law
><br> (for instance in terms of property-sales contracts). Second,
>a
><br> community can set rules about who is allowed to live in
>it.
><br>
><br> For Mr Agran, all this is worthwhile. The real evils of
>life in
><br> southern California, he says, are things like "the separation
>of the
><br> workplace from the home". In communities with smart growth
>this is a
><br> fading problem. Mr Kotkin agrees: "It would be perverse
>to limit the
><br> growth of successful places that people want to live in."
><br>
><br> PHOTO (COLOR)
><br>
>_________________
><br>
><br> Copyright of The Economist is the property of Economist
>Newspaper, NA,
><br> Inc. and its content may not be copied or emailed to multiple
>sites or
><br> posted to a listserv without the copyright holder's express
>written
><br> permission. However, users may print, download, or email
>articles for
><br> individual use.
><br> Source: Economist, 9/1/2001, Vol. 360 Issue 8237, p25,
>2p, 1 graph,
><br> 1c.
><br> Item Number: 5100695
><br>
><br>
><p>--
><br>Victor M. Rodriguez, Ph.D.
><br>Diversity Consultant/Trainer
><br>CrossCultural Dialogue
><br>rodr...@home.com
><br> </html>
>
Menglander
El Marques wrote:
>
> "Jorge Franchi" <Ple...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:9v1eoh$21u$1...@news.fsu.edu...
> > Let me see, in PR the the mean income is
> > less than 10K, but in USA is $34K?
>
> One more shot into the same foot, eh, Franchi? This Victor is really
> unbelievable!
>
> Buscate en Puerto Rico un maestro de escuela, un policia, un empleado
> regular de gobierno que se gane $35,000. Y ya veras lo que te va a
> contestar el sociologo/economistologo/predictologo Victor - "eso son
> promedios, la mayoria gana mucho menos". Pues para que esperar, aqui esta
> la respuesta.
> Por sencilla matematica, es imposible que la mayoria de un
> grupo gane "mucho menos" que el promedio, porque eso no cuadra de manera
> alguna.
Nonsense. You then proceed to show the above statement wrong...
> Si tienes un promedio de $35,000, significa que algunos ganan mas y
> otros menos.
Duh.
> Pero para que algunos ganen "mucho menos", tiene que haber un
> numero igual que gane "mucho mas", o un grupito menos que gane tanto, que
> compense la diferencia entre esa "mayoria que gana mucho menos" y el
> promedio.
Yep. You are essentially saying that it is possible for a large
majority to earn well below the average as long as a small minority
earns well above the mark. The highlighted statement is, thus, wrong.
> Por ejemplo - 100 personas tienen un promedio de $35,000, si de
> esa 100 tienes 50 que ganan $10,000, significa que los otros 50 tienen que
> ganar un promedio de $60,000 cada uno para dar un promedio global de $35,000
> para el grupo entero. Y con ese grupo de "adinerados" sucede lo mismo - si
> dices que de esos 50 hay 25 que ganan $35,000, entonces los otros 25 tienen
> que ganar $85,000 cada uno!
...en promedio. Why stop there? You can reduce the argument to absurd
if you do not bring in the distribution of the values. If among 100
individuals, 99 earn $10,000, you just need one Bill Gates earning $2.5
million a year to get your $35,000 average. These examples are all
nonesensical unless the distribution of values around the mean is
presented.
> En fin, mientras mas vueltas le das a estos
> numeros que trata de citar Victor para hacer ver a los Estados Unidos como
> un villano y un infierno para los Boricuas, peor queda la teoria de Victor
> con sus propios numeros! WHAT AN IDIOT!
Well, I do not know. You seem to be arguing that a skewed distribution
that concentrates a large portion of the wealth among few is a good
thing. I would certainly prefer a less skewed society.
-ME
>
> El Marques
XXX
>
>Stick to the facts and/or the argument.
I do, the problem is that I am showing you what a fucked-up and retarded person you are.
My suggestion is for you to re-read this entire thread, so you can see where you're screwed up.
>Your critique would make some
>sense if you KNEW Maharidge had been accused of misrepresenting or
>distorting facts. What you did was akin to saying, "Since Perez Esq. was
>caught lying, Mr. Miller might be a liar too." Hmmm...maybe there is
>some truth to your argument? Naaaah!
See what I mean about your lack of reading comprehension? I didn't say Dale was wrong, I didn't
say he was right, either. What I did say was that you use him to advance your argument, yet you
tell us nothing about what he actually said.
>The your
Could you please try to write correctly and not use fractured English?
> following argument is that I failed to summarize a 400 page book for you?
Of course not, but you're not going to get away with that old trick of naming someone just to
back yourself up.
>You are so transparent maybe Sila should hire you!
No, she already has dunces like you backing her up.
>I guess for you a source is a person who supports what YOU believe.
Of course not, but you were trying an old trick to advance your point and, as always, you were
found out.
You know, if instead of wasting your time with all this invective, you had actually told us what
this guy wrote, you would have saved yourself some time. Of course, that would have required you
to actually read the book.
>No one cyberstalks anyone, and why would I care about a two bit lawyer
>like yourself? I just wish you stayed with the arguments without all
>these smokescreens and innuendoes.
>But then, your behavior is "turba consistent."
You're a cyberstalker, that's a proven fact here. Luckily, you're so incompentent that you
don't get far.
>Tricky dick, now he shifts the terrain of the argument, who the hell is
>talking about Puerto Rico? Remember the thread? "The New Planned
>Segregation"? It's the US we were talking about, I guess you had a
>"senior moment"!
Whether you like it or not, PR is part of the US.
>You never cease to amaze me, calling the penitentiaries "gated
>communities" is racist? You sound like Goebbles, night is day, day is
>night! That is the sarcastic way African Americans call penitentiaries
>in the South, dodo!
It's also reinforces a negative stereotype about southerners. Watch out, your friend Paul, James
or whatever the fuck his name is, claims to be from the south, you're insulting him.
>Again, this time, you might want to read the article and my comments,
>it's mostly about California and Arizona. Orlando has close to 100,000
>Boricuas, most of whom are middle class in a state where Latinos are
>mostly middle class and where Cubans, to their merit, changed the rules
>of the game for Latinos (at least partially). Racial dynamics are quite
>another animal in Florida.
Now it happens to be a regional thing, huh? Why don't you just admit that the article is off
base?
XXX
>Cooke? I think you mean Beislais ... damn I forgot how it's spelled but
>I'm pretty sure it wasn't Cooke.
Cooke was a Wash Post journalist who made up a series about a child addict.
>Truth is, it doesn't matter whether X is well respected or not. The NY
>Times, Washington Post and LA Times are all "well respected" newspapers,
>and yet articles in these papers are disparaged, when convienant, by the
>left and the right in this country... usually more often by the right
>claiming a left wing bias on their parts.
Like I said, it's an argumentative trick.
>I mentioned in my post "only by white racists."
>I forgot about the phenomenon when Hispanics or Blacks will also
>segregate themselves into mostly white areas in an attempt to get away
>from other hispanics or blacks. It was silly and stupid of me to suggest
>that black or hispanic racists cannot exist, or exhibit that trait.
Oh no, now you're going against one of the tenets of PC. You have just said that blacks and
hispanics can show the same character traits as whites. Imagine that.
>This happens only if the cost of these new homes is exhorbantly priced
>and prevents people of color from buying homes there. Fact is, the
>developers want people's money and don't generally care whether its a
>white, black or asian or latino person buying the home. But lets also be
>aware that there aren't very many latinos or blacks who can afford to
>buy a 400,000 home.
From what I've seen, real estate in California is insanely priced. For my tastes, anyway.
>Economically speaking, people of color are lagging behind whites. It has
>been suggested this is proof of existing racism today. I disagree. This
>is proof of a legacy of racism that once existed and was pervasive. The
>gap between white households and nonwhite households cannot be expected
>to disappear overnight considering the gaps that were pervasive in
>society- income, housing, education... you name it. It has to start with
>education, which would take well over a dozen years for equalization to
>occur, unless one puts obstacles in the way of whites in an attempt to
>'even things out'.
>
>I'm not naive enough to suggest that there is no racism anywhere today,
>be it in employment, education, housing, or anywhere. But to suggest it
>is systematic and pervasive suggests that our civil rights laws, and
>system of compensation for violation of the same has failed. And if
>these laws have failed, I don't see how expanding them or their reach
>will improve things if the current set of laws have failed.
I agree. I find it interesting that the same people who decry racism and the government's
supposed aid to it, come out with yet more government control as a solution.
El Marques
news:3C15BC8D...@my-deja.com...
> If among 100 individuals, 99 earn $10,000, you just need
> one Bill Gates earning $2.5 million a year to get your
> $35,000 average.
And how many Boricua "Bill Gates" do you know of? That was precisely the
point of using the number of 100 as a small example, because in reality the
claim is that there are more than 3 million "boricuas" in tne Mainland, and
if "the vast majority" are "well below" the $35,000 average, then that would
suppose that there are literally THOUSANDS of "Boricua Bill Gates" making
$2.5 million per year around there somewhere, driving that average up to
$35,000 per year. I guess your mind is just to narrow and constricted to
extrapolate the example with 100 to what it would represent in real numbers.
Don't feel bad. Maybe God gave you beauty instead of brains?
El Marques
XXX
>
>Peter Miller is having a bad hair weekend.
Still at it?
BTW, what does this Miller fellow look like? Because your picture, Victor, clearly shows that
you're using a combover to hide your bald pate, so I wouldn't be making comments about baldness.
>First of all, there was a recent study of the press which challenged the
>assertion that newspapers were liberal. I don't think they are but if
>you are extremely conservative even the Orange County Register
>(California) might seem too liberal.
Yeah, the study was performed by a liberal think tank.
>First of all,
You already used "first of all" above, dude.
>I just want to remind you all of "context." This is a
>newsgroup where people are talking about shit,
Only when you are the subject, are people talking about shit.
>we are being bombarded
>with pornographic messages and discussion about metaphysics. If you were
>to write something for a newspaper you are required to follow some
>standard of accuracy. If you submit a scholarly article the same,
>particularly when it is a refereed journal. But mistakes happen, but
>most of the time these systems work quite well. Unfortunately, we tend
>to blow out of proportion (and tend to more easily remember) those
>events that go against the grain. Especially when it is expedient for us
>to recall them in the context of what was initially a serious dialogue.
>That is Miller's style. He may cloak himself, dress as a woman, wear
>panties and he still will be himself because it is ingrained in his core.
>
>So I find it interesting that a person who does not support anything he
>says, Mr. XXX, Mr. Who, Miller whatever personality he chooses to be,
>demands that from the rest of us.
Several things stand out here: First of all, your obsession with Miller is interesting.
Considering the fact that Miller hasn't posted here in weeks.
Second of all, it is obvious to all, that this is an informal forum where people post their
opinions. Yet you are the one who is constantly quoting sources that seem to be known only to
you, yet when pressed to come up with more information, you retreat to the "this is not an
academic forum" argument. You can't have it both ways.
>If you read some of my old postings about this subject, I have clearly
>said that in the US we are ALL racially prejudiced. Every time I hear
>someone say I don't have a "prejudiced bone in my body" I hide waiting
>for lightning to fall.
In the US? Only? The good thing is that at last Victor admits that he is racially prejudiced.
>Also, as I have said dozens of time before, the difference between being
>"racist" (except when used colloquially) and racially prejudiced (in my
>work, in most of race critical theory etc.) is which group's racial
>prejudice is enforced, reinforced and reproduced by society's
>institutions (I am not referring to organizations but to social
>institutions like the educational system, criminal justice system,
>economy etc.). Whichever group is dominant in a particular society, its
>likes and dislikes (and racial prejudices) will be embedded in its basic
>institutions. Which is why in Uganda some years ago Asians were expelled
>by the African government. Strong racial animosity existed between
>Asians and Blacks, but blacks controlled the basic institutions,
>including the armed forces and the police.
This is the old Spike Lee argument that blacks in the US can't be racist because they don't
control the power structure.
It's a false argument.
>Of course we don't live in 1954, but "steering" is still pervasive.
And now you're saying that real estate agents are the new George Wallaces?
>You
>never know you are being steered unless you know how another person of a
>different racial background but with your same credit history and income
>is treated. 4-5 years ago racial audit testers were sent to apartments
>in Orange County (Califas) and found a serious pattern of
>discrimination. The case is still in the courts and is only one of many
>similar cases. In Chicago there are many instances racial audits with
>the same result. In fact there is a study some in san Diego some years
>back. Every time they do a racial audit they find a patter of racial
>discrimination that goes like this: Most discriminated, Blacks, second
>most discriminated Latinos (especially those that look whatever a Latino
>looks like.). Unfortunately, now we are seeing instance of
>discrimination by Asian and Latino landlords of Blacks.
Amazing that after all these years in the US, your English grammar is so deficient.
>If a person is racially prejudiced and has no awareness, and has access
>to some power, he/she will act on that attitude.
More blarney.
>Of course, the United States has taken incredible steps in making the US
> a more open society (something Puerto Rico needs to do but the denial
>about racism is worse!)
Wow, here Victor has just said that racism in PR is worse than in the US.
What kind of truth serum where you drinking?
>but it's an ongoing project. Racial
>discrimination in subtle yet powerful ways is still pervasive (studies
>of hotels, car sales, mortgage lending, job discrimination, even car
>rental evidence it quite clearly.
Is quite clearly what?
>The problem is that we are still stuck
>in thinking that most of the racial discrimination is of the kind we a
>person wear a white (or a blue) hood and beats on Blacks. Laws have
>pushed it underground, but it is still there... ask Mr. Byrd who was
>lynched a few years ago in Texas. Or the American Patrol anti Mexican
>fanatics.
Didn't you just state that everyone in the US is racially prejudiced? So why are you surprised
that some drunken idiot white guys went off and murdered a black man?
XXX
>
>I love this one, what was the confidence level of this study you did?
Who says I did the study?
>Particularly in light of many articles about how the "massage" the
>statistics in Puerto Rico?
"how the massage the statistics in Puerto Rico"??? What the hell are you talking about? Don't
you use an electronic thesaurus? Or proofread your posts? Try it, so that you won't sound like
a quasi-illiterate buffoon when writing.
>Here in Irvine we hardly have any crime
>according to the statistics, guess why? Because many "incidents" are
>handled very differently because enforcement among upper middle class
>people is quite different. Some white kids attacked a Latino family and
>the cops drove the kids to the parent's so they would be punished. That
>"crime' does not appear in the police data.
Are you saying this happens every time? If so, where's the proof?
>But I am sure that the residents of a "gated community" in Puerto Rico
>would never get preferential treatment, especially if it might affect
>real estat prices.
Victor, this comment shows how unaware you are of the inmense amount of gated communities
existing in Puerto Rico. Just about every middle class neighborhood, not just the rich ones, is
gated.
XXX
>
>Or how about this, they are steered into other more "appropriate"
>neighborhoods where they will not "lower the real estate value"?
So latinos in California only live in lower priced homes? And they allow themselves to be
"steered" like cattle?
>First of all, the cost of living here is much higher. Unless you live in
>a trailer park in the desert $34,000 is not much to live on, just to
>barely survive (taxes!). If you have kids, forget about it! Average
>rents in a decent neighborhood in Southern Califas are between 800-1,200
>for a two bedroom apartment, 200/month for a car and groceries and you
>can drive back and forth from work to your house and figure out a way of
>paying the gas, electric bill, and food, clothing....
>But since I know you are a bright old balding lawyer, you know what a
>"mean," means? It's basically an average. Averages, even moron Franchi
>can attest to this, are sensitive to high and low numbers. So that if
>there is a significant number of people with incomes more than $100,000
>it biases the average.
What? You mean that there are significant number of latinos earning more than $100,000?
And that these high income latinos let themselves be steered into low income areas?
It's truly impressive to see that, no matter the small amounts of rope you work with, you still
manage to hang yourself every time.
And Victor, when we talk about $34K being the average, we're talking nationwide, not just in
California. And it still means that PRs in the states are doing far better than those who
stayed, on average
>Guess what, many Latinos, including Puerto Ricans (mostly highly
>educated in PR or the US), lighter skin, tend to do better in terms of
>income. In fact, the numbers of Latinos earning more than $140,000 a
>year almost doubled from 1979-1999 (163 thousand to 490 thousands).
>While this is a great achievement, despite patterns of discrimination,
>those who earn less than $40,000 and who are a larger number (7 million)
>grew to 16 million (120%).
How many of those lower earning people were recent immigrants?
Victor, once again, you disprove what you aver. Now it turns out that the number of latinos
earning more than $140K didn't just "almost doubled", it MORE THAN TRIPLED. Do the math,
Einstein.
>Your "senior moments" seem to be occurring quite often lately, get off
>that scotch you and your cochino friend Jaime love so much. You are
>burning the few good neurons you have left.
Really? You're the bozo that thinks that going from 163 to 490 means "it almost doubled".
>
>I will list these so even you can recall them later...
>
>
> 1. I was referring to Orange County (in Irvine is even less).
So if the figure in Irvine is even less, why did you state that it was amazing that you hardly
ever saw a black in Irvine? You see how you confused yourself. . . AGAIN, and forgot what you
initially said?
Get off the sauce, you're stupid enough as it is without external help.
>
> 2. In Orange County (2000) 1202 incidents were reported.
>
> 1. 18% (21) de los incidentes fueron contra
> los Negros...
>
> 2. 1.65 fueron contra blancos (2)
>
> 3. 7% Fueron Latinos (8).
>
> Anything else you might want to add, counselor?
Yeah, do your math again, because it makes no sense. And I'm not a counselor.
XXX
>
>Errata: 122 incidentes, no 1202....el cero es la cantidad de neuronas
>que tiene el puerco federal este.
Y si el tiene cero neuronas, y aun asi pudo demostrar lo descojonado de tus numeros, que te
indica eso?
>Y si es un numero significativo, porque como dicen las agencias
>policiacas "it is just the tip of the iceberg."
The "tip of the iceberg"??? Nuevamente quedas pintado como un farsante. Intentastes pintar a
Orange County como un sitio lleno de odio, y ahora resulta que apenas ocurren eventos raciales
alli.
Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez
pea brain could not understand), I will add a few more facts so you will
be enlightened (not for your benefit, however!).
You should remember the difference between a mean and a median, which is
what most of us prefer, because it is less sensitive to extreme high/low
number. But since means were used, I will continue to use them.
El Marques wrote:
> "Jorge Franchi" <Ple...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:9v1eoh$21u$1...@news.fsu.edu...
>
>>Let me see, in PR the the mean income is
>>less than 10K, but in USA is $34K?
>>
>
> One more shot into the same foot, eh, Franchi? This Victor is really
> unbelievable!
>
> Buscate en Puerto Rico un maestro de escuela, un policia, un empleado
> regular de gobierno que se gane $35,000. Y ya veras lo que te va a
> contestar el sociologo/economistologo/predictologo Victor - "eso son
> promedios, la mayoria gana mucho menos".
You should have stopped here but your pea brain was lusting for the lesson.
Pues para que esperar, aqui esta
> la respuesta. Por sencilla matematica, es imposible que la mayoria de un
> grupo gane "mucho menos" que el promedio, porque eso no cuadra de manera
> alguna. Si tienes un promedio de $35,000, significa que algunos ganan mas y
> otros menos.
You see, stupid comments like these are the best evidence of why JSP is
stuck in a dead end job (clerical worker) instead of working for some
major corporation or teaching at a university. In his case, there has
been absolutely no discrimination (But you might have a case through the
ADA), he is just plain stupid.
I bet you had no idea of what ME meant by the "distribution around the
mean" ...
Pero para que algunos ganen "mucho menos", tiene que haber un
> numero igual que gane "mucho mas",
Menglander already rubbed your nose on the floor with this and all you
could come back was with an asinine comment about a Puerto Rican Bill Gates?
o un grupito menos que gane tanto, que
> compense la diferencia entre esa "mayoria que gana mucho menos" y el
> promedio. Por ejemplo - 100 personas tienen un promedio de $35,000, si de
> esa 100 tienes 50 que ganan $10,000, significa que los otros 50 tienen que
> ganar un promedio de $60,000 cada uno para dar un promedio global de $35,000
> para el grupo entero. Y con ese grupo de "adinerados" sucede lo mismo - si
> dices que de esos 50 hay 25 que ganan $35,000, entonces los otros 25 tienen
> que ganar $85,000 cada uno! En fin, mientras mas vueltas le das a estos
> numeros que trata de citar Victor para hacer ver a los Estados Unidos como
> un villano y un infierno para los Boricuas, peor queda la teoria de Victor
> con sus propios numeros! WHAT AN IDIOT!
BTW, I agree with you, you are an idiot, but even idiots score something
on the IQ scale, you are close to the bottom. Read and be enlightened.
If you read carefully what I have written here, you will note that I
have mentioned, many times, that the United States is becoming
increasingly economically polarized. That trend, is also taking place
within the Latino population and specifically, within the Puerto Rican
community.
Since you are so dense, I will explain what that means. That means that
the bottom and the top end of the income distribution are growing
further apart. Part of the reason is the increase in the number of
people earning low wages but also an increase in the ranks of the upper
middle class and the wealthy. This is the result of the "information
economy."
Puerto Ricans, in the really existing statehood you all dream about are
the poorest of all "Hispanic" groups, U.S. citizenship and all!
(Poverty, U.S. Census, 1999)
1. Whites 7.7% (Non-Hispanic Whites)
2. Central/South American 16.7% (Although this is affected by high numbers of
Guatemalans and Salvadorans
living in poverty)
3. Cubans 17.3%
4. Mexicans 24.1%
5. Boricuas (US) 25.8%
La estadidad "de verdad" ha sido fantasticamente prospera para los
paisanos en gringoland!
But of course, you will start blaming our paisanos for being lazy, lack
of motivation etc. Just like David Duke.
The interesting answer to the puzzle is discrimination and education
(albeit both are related).
Since I am writing a piece on middle class Latinos, let me share this
fact, about what ME mentions in his nice rebuttal to your gnarly
comments. Unfortunately, I don't have the same income categories quoted
before (Brischetto, Hispanic Business, data from Frank Bean, UC
Irvine). I must add that I agree with Brischetto, that groups beyond the
$140,000 income level are qualitatively different than the "middle
class" and more akin to an upper class (source of income, assets, etc.).
Pero te doy lo que tengo ...mira a ver si decifras lo que te planteo ME.
(The Latino Middle Class, Tomas Rivera Institute, 2001)
In 1979 Puerto Rican HHs by Income categories (approximate numbers of HHs)
Less than 20K 249,000
20 and 40k 160,000
Greater than 40k 130,000
As you can see here the distribution of HHs by income has a rather
sizable middle income group similar to what the US looked like in those
days. This is a relatively healthy distribution. However, nothing
happened in the last two decades....
In 1998 Boricua HHs by income category (approximate numbers)
less than 20k 375,000
between 20-40k 230,000
greater than 40k 270,000
Unfortunately, I don't have the numbers for the higher categories
(greater than $140k) but I think it is safe to point out that the middle
income level (20-40k lower middle income, working class) segment of the
Puerto Rican population decreased, and the lower and higher income
levels of the Boricua population increased dramatically.
What this means is that THERE ARE many Boricuas earning very high income
and a very large number of Puerto Ricans just surviving. Their U.S.
citizenship didn't do much for them, did it?
In sum, if you are highly educated you have a better chance of doing
well (which means that hundreds of thousands of Puerto Ricans being
served by deteriorating schools will have a hard time getting out of
poverty). Also, the middle rungs of the income distribution indicate
that it will be harder to jump out of poverty since those middle income
jobs are going elsewhere...places like Mexico border!
The serious issue is what can be done to support the Boricua community?
Organizing them to support statehood for PR? No, they already know what
it means in their daily lives....
This is statehood for Boricuas, not the dream you live by....
>
> El Marques
>
>
>
--
Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez
Anti-Racist Trainer/Diversity Consultant
CrossCultural Dialogue
Jaime Rivera-Sierra
Oye, esos numeritos están buenos, si puedes, envíame el link si existe...
Tengo una pregunta que podría ayudar a los minusválidos mentales que
contestan tus mensajes...
Si, en un salón se encuentran Bill Gates junto a 10,000 deambulantes...
Entonces, ¿Cual sería el ingreso per cápita de ese salón?, ¿La media?, ¿El
promedio? del ingreso per capita...
¡Óyeme, de momento los deambulantes se volvieron millonarios!
A lo mejor así pueden entender por que es que EEUU tiene un ingreso per.
capita tan alto...
No es sólo las minorías, en Steelville, Missouri, por ejemplo, la mayoría
cobra menos de $15,000 POR HOGAR (dato tomado de la página 116 del issue de
noviembre 2001 de National Geographic; ZipUSA: Steelville, Missouri) Por si
a alguien se le ocurre justificar la pobreza de los boricuas porque, dizque,
somos vagos...
jrs
"Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez" <rodr...@home.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:3C164248...@home.com...
Jorge Franchi
> Amazing that after all these years in the US, your English grammar is so
deficient.
Hace cuanto tiempo llevo diciendo que el tipo es un SOBERANO MEDIOCRE?!?!
No solo se graduo de un carrera Mickey Mouse y de un programa tribili, sino que
tambien le regalaron su Ph.D. sin haber hecho ninguna investigacion digna de ese
diploma.
Pero no me crean a mi, solo aprecien el resultado de esa mediocridad en las
porquerias de trabajo que ha tenido y que actualmente tiene.
'Dito!, con tanto quille de jodon y es un mero PENDEJO a la vela.
Jorge Franchi
Jorge Franchi
> is stuck in a dead end job (clerical worker) instead of working for
> some major corporation or teaching at a university.
Of course, working as an Associate Professor in a inconsequential program like
Chicano and Latino Studies, btw mainly taught by Instructors, is a real job,
right?
JA JA JA!!
Me meooooooooo!! :-))
Jorge Franchi
Jorge Franchi
> While Menglander taught you a good lesson (which as usual, your little
> pea brain could not understand), I will add a few more facts [...]
Jejeje ... "add a few more facts" :-))
That the story of your life, adding to the contributions of others for lack of
knowledge and experience!!
Que jodio asqueroso es el cabron este!
Jorge Franchi
Jorge Franchi
> While Menglander taught you a good lesson (which as usual, your little
> pea brain could not understand), I will add a few more facts [...]
Jejeje ... "add a few more facts" :-))
That the story of your life, adding to the contributions of others for lack of
knowledge and experience!!
Jorge Franchi
Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez
XXX wrote:
> In article <3C14E25D...@home.com>, rodr...@home.com says...
>
> BTW, what does this Miller fellow look like? Because your picture, Victor, clearly shows that
> you're using a combover to hide your bald pate, so I wouldn't be making comments about baldness.
>
He has curls, like goldilocks, they call him "injerto" (it beats me why
they call you that ...!) and has a receding hairline which is creating a
space where a B-52 can land and throw a few of those 15,000 pound bombs.
>
>
>
> Several things stand out here: First of all, your obsession with Miller is interesting.
> Considering the fact that Miller hasn't posted here in weeks.
>
Sure, Peter.
Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez
Jaime Rivera-Sierra wrote:
> Saludos Víctor...
Estimado compatriota ...
>
> Oye, esos numeritos están buenos, si puedes, envíame el link si existe...
Desafortunadamente no hay un enlace para ellos, pero si te puedo decir
donde puedes conseguirlos. Hay una versión corta del articulo de
Brischetto (Hispanic Business December 2001 pp. 21-32) en la pagina de HB.
http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/
De hecho, encontraras este articulo muy interesante pues demuestra como
cuando la economía yanqui le da catarro, los Latinos nos da pulmonía. La
estadidad realmente existente! No la que sueñan los morones ingenuos
estos. La que tu y yo conocemos porque la vivimos de día a día.
http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/news/newsbyidfront.asp?id=5866
Los otros datos vienen de un estudio que realizo el Tomas Rivera
Institute (dirigido por el sociólogo Frank Bean de UC Irvine). Compre
una copia del mismo, no esta asequible en el internet.
>
> Tengo una pregunta que podría ayudar a los minusválidos mentales que
> contestan tus mensajes...
>
> Si, en un salón se encuentran Bill Gates junto a 10,000 deambulantes...
> Entonces, ¿Cual sería el ingreso per cápita de ese salón?, ¿La media?, ¿El
> promedio? del ingreso per capita...
> ¡Óyeme, de momento los deambulantes se volvieron millonarios!
Recuerda que Jaime Sotomayor Pabon es una secretaria glorificada, no se
le pueden pedir guanabanas a una mata de plátano. El se cree que una
media es algo que el se pone en la cabeza para aplastar las ceretas que
tiene.
>
> A lo mejor así pueden entender por que es que EEUU tiene un ingreso per.
> capita tan alto...
Correcto. Los EU se ha convertido en las ultimas décadas en un país
polarizado. Porque es que hasta los médicos están organizadores
sindicalmente? Porque la economía esta creado dos clases, los rico y los
pobres. Carlitos Marx debe estar dandole cólico en la tumba.
>
> No es sólo las minorías, en Steelville, Missouri, por ejemplo, la mayoría
> cobra menos de $15,000 POR HOGAR (dato tomado de la página 116 del issue de
> noviembre 2001 de National Geographic; ZipUSA: Steelville, Missouri) Por si
> a alguien se le ocurre justificar la pobreza de los boricuas porque, dizque,
> somos vagos...
> jrs
Tienes absoluta razon, es una tendencia que afecta a todas las capas de
la poblacion yanqui. Pero, las minorias la sufren mas intensamente,
leete el articulo que te menciono arriba.
FUERA LA MARINA DE VIEQUES!
Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez
XXX wrote:
> In article <3C1521F7...@home.com>, rodr...@home.com says...
>
>>Errata: 122 incidentes, no 1202....el cero es la cantidad de neuronas
>>que tiene el puerco federal este.
>>
>
> Y si el tiene cero neuronas, y aun asi pudo demostrar lo descojonado de tus numeros, que te
> indica eso?
Jaja! La verdad es que eres muy jocoso, pero "don't leave your day job!"
XXX
>
>He has curls, like goldilocks, they call him "injerto" (it beats me why
>they call you that ...!)
Nobody's ever called me that, then again, I'm not Miller.
>and has a receding hairline which is creating a
>space where a B-52 can land and throw a few of those 15,000 pound bombs.
Well, if he has a receding hairline, does he do a combover like you do?
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Several things stand out here: First of all, your obsession with Miller is interesting.
>> Considering the fact that Miller hasn't posted here in weeks.
>>
>
>
>Sure, Peter.
Once again, you're wrong.
XXX
>
>Estimado compatriota ...
. . . en la imbecilidad e hipocresia.
>
>
>>
>> Oye, esos numeritos están buenos, si puedes, envíame el link si existe...
>
>
>Desafortunadamente no hay un enlace para ellos, pero si te puedo decir
>donde puedes conseguirlos. Hay una versión corta del articulo de
>Brischetto (Hispanic Business December 2001 pp. 21-32) en la pagina de HB.
>
>http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/
>
>De hecho, encontraras este articulo muy interesante pues demuestra como
>cuando la economía yanqui le da catarro, los Latinos nos da pulmonía. La
>estadidad realmente existente! No la que sueñan los morones ingenuos
>estos. La que tu y yo conocemos porque la vivimos de día a día.
Y si es tan mala, porque carajos los dos llevan años por alla?
Que clase de duo son uds dos.
>Correcto. Los EU se ha convertido en las ultimas décadas en un país
>polarizado. Porque es que hasta los médicos están organizadores
>sindicalmente? Porque la economía esta creado dos clases, los rico y los
>pobres. Carlitos Marx debe estar dandole cólico en la tumba.
Ahora los medicos son clase trabajadora pobre?
Mano, esto es para mearse de la risa, porque semejante imbecilidad es impresionante.