Polish and Ukrainian cultures
WaRR
Alexander Sharon wrote in message ...
>I hate this fruitless discussion. What are you guys trying to achieve for
>God sake? I grew up between Polish and Ukrainian cultures, with some
>additional mix of Russian nd Jewish. All literature and cultures are closed
>to me, they all in certain degree have developed my character and world
>vision. I read also in translations English and French literature as a
young
>boy, later I could read an originals.. All those literary works, music,
>paintongs, architecture are above nationalism. This is called culture of
the
>world. Ukrainians have contributed as much as they could to world common
>culture. I had mentioned some Ukrainians writers of the 19th century. If
Mr.
>RIP read at leat one book of those writers, I will be greatly surprised.
>
>Alexander Sharon
Sorry Sharon but I dont think either side is interested in comments made by
a jew. I guess every poet, painter, scientist is a nationalist because he
doesnt
write about jews and jewish affairs.
Like I said before - We are not interested in any jewish opinions. Please
direct them to soc.culture.jewish instead. If jew culture is so great, I am
sure
you will find many great topics to write about on s.c.j.
WaRR
WaRR
RPP
> Anyway could give me a example of a Ukrainian who would be very well
>> known in the world?
>
>Well, Gogol (Hohol). He wrote in Russian because his own language was
>banned, but the literature is quite Ukrainian in theme, atmosphere and
>content. Few works could be more Ukrainian than Taras Bulba or the
>Dykanky stories.
>
>Gogol also played a huge role in the genesis of Russian literature,
>which is considered by many to be the best in the world (Russia is to
>literature as Germany/Austria are to classical music)
>
>And Gogol is far more well known/respected around the world than any
>Polish writer.
>
Really??????
And he won a nobel prize???
Lets name the Polish Nobel Laureates, supposedly less respected:
Wislawa Szymborska, Czeslaw Milosz, Wladyslaw Reymont, Henryk
Sienkiewicz. And how many Ukrainians??? What about the greatest
novelist in English language, Joseph Conrad??? He was a Pole, learned
English as a sailor on a British merchant ship.
>Of course there is also Archipenko, one of the world's most important
>cubist sculptors (you can look him up in any Encyclopedia if you wish),
>etc.
>
>The Poles have Chopin of course.
>
We sure do. We also have Paderewski, Penderecki, Gorecki to name just
3 world famous composers.
What about movies?Wajda, Kieslowski, Polanski, Agnieszka Holland all
world famous.
Literature? I already gave you a few Nobel Laureates, but would add
Mickiewicz, Norwid, Tuwim, Kraszewski, Kochanowski, Rey, Slowacki,
Lem, Joseph Conrad, Leopold Staff, etc.
Painting? Matejko, Kossak, Brandt, Wyspianski, etc.
The fact is that Ukraine is a small potato on the world scale. Poles
have been huge contributors to the world from Copernicus to Marie
Curie, Poles were huge players on every stage. Ukes were not.
And btw, im sending this to soc.culture.polish so you cant hide your
ignorance.
SBobrow940
was Bobrowska and his family lived near Zytomir (west of Kiev).
Most of the Korzeniowskis and Bobrowskis
were forced to move out of the area after the January Uprising and the
resulting repression.
If they did not move at that time, most would be killed later by "babai" and
his cohorts.
So much about cultural exchanges between Poles and some Ukrainians expatriates
fleeing from justice.
S.B.
P.S. Henryk Sienkiewicz did not get Nobel
Aword. I am not sure if J.Conrad did either.
---------------
RPP
>As far as Joseph Conrad (Korzeniowski) is concerned, his mother's maiden name
>was Bobrowska and his family lived near Zytomir (west of Kiev).
>Most of the Korzeniowskis and Bobrowskis
>were forced to move out of the area after the January Uprising and the
>resulting repression.
>If they did not move at that time, most would be killed later by "babai" and
>his cohorts.
>So much about cultural exchanges between Poles and some Ukrainians expatriates
>fleeing from justice.
>S.B.
>
>P.S. Henryk Sienkiewicz did not get Nobel
>Aword. I am not sure if J.Conrad did either.
>
Sienkiewicz sure did, 1905, check it out.
http://www.almaz.com/nobel/literature/literature.html
Alexander Sharon
news:37645fe4...@news.kwom.com...
> On Sun, 13 Jun 1999 23:07:46 GMT, bab...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Anyway could give me a example of a Ukrainian who would be very well
> >> known in the world?
> >
> >Well, Gogol (Hohol). He wrote in Russian because his own language was
> >banned, but the literature is quite Ukrainian in theme, atmosphere and
> >content. Few works could be more Ukrainian than Taras Bulba or the
> >Dykanky stories.
> >
> >Gogol also played a huge role in the genesis of Russian literature,
> >which is considered by many to be the best in the world (Russia is to
> >literature as Germany/Austria are to classical music)
> >
> >And Gogol is far more well known/respected around the world than any
> >Polish writer.
> >
>
> Really??????
> And he won a nobel prize???
Mr RPP,
Please at least do not show your ignorance. Nobel prize was not even on the
horizons when Nikolai Gogol (Mykola Hohol) wrote his works in 19th century.
Mr. Babai, on the other hand, there is not best or worst of the literatures,
all literatures of the world do contribute to the common world culture.
Gogol could write in Ukrainian, no one has stopped him or forbid him to
write in this language, please refer to my list of Ukrainian writers below,
who wrote in their native language.
Gogol is consider to be a Russian writer who was nevertheless an Ukrainian
by birth.
The earliest Ukrainian works were published in the Kievan Rus, betwen 11 to
13 centuries, mostly religious theme, and is commonly accepted also by
Russian and Belarusan literatures. The very first true Ukrainian literature
representative was Ivan Kotlyarevskij, who wrote at the end of 18th century
and beginning of 19th.
("Eneida", "Natalka-Poltavka"), Piotr Hulak-Artemovskij, Euhen Hrebyonka.
Those writers were influenced by the Romantic literature period, mostly
balalds, romantic songs, and spome realistic fables. Hrihory Kvitka (known
as Hrycko Osnovyanienko, autor of "Marusya, "Serdeshnaya Oksana" and most
famous "Konopatskaya Vied'ma") is aithor of outsanding Ukrainian prose. He
saw Russians from the standpoint of the outsider, he revealed Russians to
themselves and raised turbulent revolutionary ideas in their mind. This
became evident in his comedy "Revizor". Strange thing - Gogol was a
conservative and an upholder of autocracy and serfdom, and his comedy
"Revizor" and the novel "Miortvyje Dushy" ("Dead Souls") were destroying
things he stood for.
Don't worry babai, there were enough true Ukrainian writers and poets to
cmpensate for the Russified Gogol.
Taras Hrihoryevich Shevchenko is the true founder of the modern national
Ukrainian literature. Not only his poetry and prose, playwrights, paintings
but also his private life as a serf and 25 years soldier in the tzarist army
and revolutionary democrat, became an inspiration not only to all Ukrainian
Nation but to any person familiar with works of this extremly talended human
being. Other Ukrainian writers did follow tradition of T.H.Shevchenko -
Marko Vovchok (real name Marija Markovich), Yuri fedkovich, Ivan
Niechuj-Levitskij, Panas Mirnyj, Mark Kropivnitskij, very talended Mikhajlo
Staritskij (have you seen lovely "Oy, ne khody, Hrytsu...:?),
Karpenko-Kary - real name of Ivan Tobilevich), and the greatest, my
favorite, Ivan Franko ("Borislav Smijetsya", Vershiny i Niziny", "Boa
Constrictor" and "Moyisey"). If some deserves Nobel Prize it was Ivan
Franko, the great revolutionary writer and scholar, who raised critical
realizm to a higher level. Ivan Franko describe the people as the as main
motive force of history. Who done this before Franko. No one. Just for this
only observation, the Nobel przize at the beginning of 20th century should
be his. I can continue with Ukrainian writers of the 20th century, but i
assume that names like Lesya Ukrainka, Mihajlo Kotsubinskij, Olha
Kobylyanskaya are known to the wide public. i just want to mentioned name of
Ukrainian writers who produced their work betwen the wars in Western
Ukraine- Sefan Tudor, Piotr Kozlanyuk, Oleksandr Havryluk, and again, my
favorite, Yaroslav Halan. (Ivan Franko came from the same village as my Dad,
and Yaroslav Halan came from the village just next to ours, this is why I am
so proud of both them, both talended and great people).
> Lets name the Polish Nobel Laureates, supposedly less respected:
>
> Wislawa Szymborska, Czeslaw Milosz, Wladyslaw Reymont, Henryk
> Sienkiewicz. And how many Ukrainians??? What about the greatest
> novelist in English language, Joseph Conrad??? He was a Pole, learned
> English as a sailor on a British merchant ship.
Next pissing contest?
>
> >Of course there is also Archipenko, one of the world's most important
> >cubist sculptors (you can look him up in any Encyclopedia if you wish),
> >etc.
> >
> >The Poles have Chopin of course.
> >
>
> We sure do. We also have Paderewski, Penderecki, Gorecki to name just
> 3 world famous composers.
> What about movies?Wajda, Kieslowski, Polanski, Agnieszka Holland all
> world famous.
> Literature? I already gave you a few Nobel Laureates, but would add
> Mickiewicz, Norwid, Tuwim, Kraszewski, Kochanowski, Rey, Slowacki,
> Lem, Joseph Conrad, Leopold Staff, etc.
> Painting? Matejko, Kossak, Brandt, Wyspianski, etc.
>
> The fact is that Ukraine is a small potato on the world scale. Poles
> have been huge contributors to the world from Copernicus to Marie
> Curie, Poles were huge players on every stage. Ukes were not.
>
> And btw, im sending this to soc.culture.polish so you cant hide your
> ignorance.
I hate this fruitless discussion. What are you guys trying to achieve for
Alexander Sharon
Tadeusz Bobrowski, maternal uncle took care of Conrad after the death of
mother in 1865 and death of father in 1869. Jo'zef Teodor Konrad
Korzeniowski was born in Berdyczo'w.
Henryk Sienkiewicz got Noble for "Quo Vadis" ( Funny, I've read "Quo vadis"
first in Russian and title was "Kamo griadeszi")
Conrad wasn/t awarded Nobel prize and in 1924 he also refused to accept
knighthood from the Premier-Minister Ramsay MacDonald.
Alexander Sharon
--
Alexander Sharon
SBobrow940 <sbobr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990614000032...@ng-cj1.aol.com...
> As far as Joseph Conrad (Korzeniowski) is concerned, his mother's maiden
name
> was Bobrowska and his family lived near Zytomir (west of Kiev).
> Most of the Korzeniowskis and Bobrowskis
> were forced to move out of the area after the January Uprising and the
> resulting repression.
> If they did not move at that time, most would be killed later by "babai"
and
> his cohorts.
> So much about cultural exchanges between Poles and some Ukrainians
expatriates
> fleeing from justice.
> S.B.
>
> P.S. Henryk Sienkiewicz did not get Nobel
> Aword. I am not sure if J.Conrad did either.
>
> ---------------
> bab...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Anyway could give me a example of a Ukrainian who would be very well
> >> known in the world?
> >
> >Well, Gogol (Hohol). He wrote in Russian because his own language was
> >banned, but the literature is quite Ukrainian in theme, atmosphere and
> >content. Few works could be more Ukrainian than Taras Bulba or the
> >Dykanky stories.
> >
> >Gogol also played a huge role in the genesis of Russian literature,
> >which is considered by many to be the best in the world (Russia is to
> >literature as Germany/Austria are to classical music)
> >
> >And Gogol is far more well known/respected around the world than any
> >Polish writer.
> >
>
> Really??????
> And he won a nobel prize???
>
> Lets name the Polish Nobel Laureates, supposedly less respected:
>
> Wislawa Szymborska, Czeslaw Milosz, Wladyslaw Reymont, Henryk
> Sienkiewicz. And how many Ukrainians??? What about the greatest
> novelist in English language, Joseph Conrad??? He was a Pole, learned
> English as a sailor on a British merchant ship.
>
>
SBobrow940
Naczelniem Warszawy w czasie Powstania 1863. Zginal w 1863 lub 64 r w wyniku
pojedynku.
Pozdrawiam,
Slawek
-----------
RPP
<a.sh...@home.com> wrote:
>>
>> Really??????
>> And he won a nobel prize???
>
>Mr RPP,
>
>Please at least do not show your ignorance. Nobel prize was not even on the
>horizons when Nikolai Gogol (Mykola Hohol) wrote his works in 19th century.
Well, Sienkiewicz received the Nobel prize for works he wrote well
before 1905. He was respected for his body of work. The Nobel prize is
not the Oscars where only things done that year are considered.
Szymborska got her prize for her works before 1997. When Baba writes
Gogol is more rspected than any Polish writer, I ask where is Gogol's
nobel prize?
SBobrow940
If it were not for that twisted Mr./Mrs./Miss "babai" I wouldn't try this kind
of contest.
On the other hand, his (babai's) only goal is to get somehow "even" his sick
way. A shear case of low-class/no-class.
"babai" reminds me of the defendent in a murder case where the victims were his
mother and his father and his plea for mercy was that he was orphan.
The "babais" exterminated their own Rus upper class because those poor devils
too
often spoke Polish. And now "the orphans" are trying to reposess the Rus
culture and history. Haaaaa...
S.B.
-----------
RPP
<a.sh...@home.com> wrote:
>. Strange thing - Gogol was a
>conservative and an upholder of autocracy and serfdom, and his comedy
>"Revizor" and the novel "Miortvyje Dushy" ("Dead Souls") were destroying
>things he stood for.
You mean he was all the things baba accuses me of being and accuses
Poles for being? An anti-freedom, moscow boot kissing, cattle???? Wow,
more baba ignorance? Maybe Magocsi didnt mention this when baba was
looking desperately for someone notable from Ukraine.
Slawomir Popiel
WaRR <Wa...@OjczYznA.OrG> wrote in message
news:Us093.7632$DI2....@cynws01.we.mediaone.net...
|
| Alexander Sharon wrote in message ...
|
| >God sake? I grew up between Polish and Ukrainian cultures, with some
| >additional mix of Russian nd Jewish. All literature and cultures are
closed
| >to me, they all in certain degree have developed my character and world
| >vision. I read also in translations English and French literature as a
| young
| >boy, later I could read an originals.. All those literary works, music,
| >paintongs, architecture are above nationalism. This is called culture of
| the
| >world. Ukrainians have contributed as much as they could to world common
| >culture. I had mentioned some Ukrainians writers of the 19th century. If
| Mr.
| >RIP read at leat one book of those writers, I will be greatly surprised.
| >
| >Alexander Sharon
|
|
|
|
by
| a jew.
Sorry Warr, but nobody is interested in efforts made by a meat.
Just go away.
--
Pozdrawiam,
Slawomir Popiel
New Jersey
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/7847/
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/7404/
http://members.tripod.com/kingpopiel/
Specjalny disclaimer dla pana Malca:
Wyzej podpisany absolutnie nieu waza, ze sytuacja Zydow w Polsce
przedwojennej byla idylliczna, i do pozazdroszczenia, i ze prawa, aczkolwiek
zapewniajace rownosc, byly sprawiedliwie egzekwowane, w szczegolnosci przez
przedstawicieli wladz lokalnych i ze w Polsce nie bylo pogromow
Grazyna Lesniak
Slawomir Popiel napisał(a) w wiadomości: ...
>
>WaRR <Wa...@OjczYznA.OrG> wrote in message
>news:Us093.7632$DI2....@cynws01.we.mediaone.net...
>|
>| Alexander Sharon wrote in message ...
>|
achieve for
>| >God sake? I grew up between Polish and Ukrainian cultures, with some
>| >additional mix of Russian nd Jewish. All literature and cultures are
>closed
>| >to me, they all in certain degree have developed my character and
world
>| >vision. I read also in translations English and French literature as
a
>| young
>| >boy, later I could read an originals.. All those literary works,
music,
>| >paintongs, architecture are above nationalism. This is called
culture of
>| the
>| >world. Ukrainians have contributed as much as they could to world
common
>| >culture. I had mentioned some Ukrainians writers of the 19th
century. If
>| Mr.
>| >RIP read at leat one book of those writers, I will be greatly
surprised.
>| >
>| >Alexander Sharon
>|
>|
>|
>|
made
>by
>| a jew.
>
>Sorry Warr, but nobody is interested in efforts made by a meat.
>Just go away.
Sorry Warr but Mr Popiel is right.
Grazyna
WaRR
Grazyna Lesniak wrote in message <7k29cf$a58$1...@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl>...
>
>Slawomir Popiel napisał(a) w wiadomości: ...
>>
>>WaRR <Wa...@OjczYznA.OrG> wrote in message
>>news:Us093.7632$DI2....@cynws01.we.mediaone.net...
>>|
>>| Alexander Sharon wrote in message ...
>>|
>achieve for
>>| >God sake? I grew up between Polish and Ukrainian cultures, with some
>>| >additional mix of Russian nd Jewish. All literature and cultures are
>>closed
>>| >to me, they all in certain degree have developed my character and
>world
>>| >vision. I read also in translations English and French literature as
>a
>>| young
>>| >boy, later I could read an originals.. All those literary works,
>music,
>>| >paintongs, architecture are above nationalism. This is called
>culture of
>>| the
>>| >world. Ukrainians have contributed as much as they could to world
>common
>>| >culture. I had mentioned some Ukrainians writers of the 19th
>century. If
>>| Mr.
>>| >RIP read at leat one book of those writers, I will be greatly
>surprised.
>>| >
>>| >Alexander Sharon
>>|
>>|
>>|
>>|
>made
>>by
>>| a jew.
>>
>>Sorry Warr, but nobody is interested in efforts made by a meat.
>>Just go away.
>
>
>Sorry Warr but Mr Popiel is right.
>
>Grazyna
I see, 3 jewish wrongs make it right.
WaRR
jerz...@yahoo.com
>
>Like I said before - We are not interested in any jewish opinions.
Sir,
once again you seem to post your messages in the wrong group. Soc.nazi.bullshit
or soc.racist.crap would be much more appropriate.
J.M.
Alexander Sharon
Wiec to jest panska Rodzina? Jakos nie skojarzylo mi sie to, dopiero teraz
uprzytomnilem podobienstwo nazwisk.
Gratulacje. Postac Conrada i tworczosc sa juz legenda.
Pozdrawiam
Olek
--
Alexander Sharon
SBobrow940 <sbobr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990614004715...@ng-cj1.aol.com...
> > Really??????
> > And he won a nobel prize???
> >
mba...@my-deja.com
sbobr...@aol.com (SBobrow940) wrote:
> As far as Joseph Conrad (Korzeniowski) is concerned, his mother's
maiden name
> was Bobrowska and his family lived near Zytomir (west of Kiev).
> Most of the Korzeniowskis and Bobrowskis
> were forced to move out of the area after the January Uprising and the
> resulting repression.
> If they did not move at that time, most would be killed later by
"babai" and
> his cohorts.
> So much about cultural exchanges between Poles and some Ukrainians
expatriates
> fleeing from justice.
> S.B.
>
> P.S. Henryk Sienkiewicz did not get Nobel
> Aword.
> I am not sure if J.Conrad did either
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Alexander Sharon
Alexander Sharonnews:376493bf...@news.kwom.com...
> >> And he won a nobel prize???
> >
> >Mr RPP,
> >
> >Please at least do not show your ignorance. Nobel prize was not even on
the
> >horizons when Nikolai Gogol (Mykola Hohol) wrote his works in 19th
century.
>
>
> before 1905. He was respected for his body of work. The Nobel prize is
> not the Oscars where only things done that year are considered.
> Szymborska got her prize for her works before 1997. When Baba writes
> Gogol is more rspected than any Polish writer, I ask where is Gogol's
> nobel prize?
Gogol passed away in 1852. Nobel prize was introduced much later, and is
not awarded to the deceased authors.
Lev Tolstoy and Anton Chekhov didn't receive Nobel Prize either, and they
were alive when Prize was already awarded.
What does this all prove anyway?
Alexander Sharon
Leszek Andrzej Kleczkowski
: Slawku,
: Wiec to jest panska Rodzina? Jakos nie skojarzylo mi sie to, dopiero teraz
: uprzytomnilem podobienstwo nazwisk.
: Gratulacje. Postac Conrada i tworczosc sa juz legenda.
Dlatego tez p. Warr sie uaktywnil. Pan Slawek i Pan Warr dwa bratanki
:-))
Pozdrawiam
Leszek
---
Smart questions to stupid answers
Alexander Sharon
> >conservative and an upholder of autocracy and serfdom, and his comedy
> >"Revizor" and the novel "Miortvyje Dushy" ("Dead Souls") were destroying
> >things he stood for.
>
> Poles for being? An anti-freedom, moscow boot kissing, cattle???? Wow,
> more baba ignorance? Maybe Magocsi didnt mention this when baba was
> looking desperately for someone notable from Ukraine.
I am afraid that the both of you arrived at the dead street. Instead of
comparison of two cultures, Polish and Ukrainian, finding similarities and
common influences or interactions (and there are so many), you have decided
to follow an opposite direction- the direction of disagreement.
One can see glass being half empty, and the other seeing it as half full.
May I suggest that both of you abandon this discussion, and cool down. There
are no winners. Perhaps only one positive thing is that this discussion had
forced both of you to do some serious reference searching, which is always
very educational process in itself.
Pozdrowienia
Zdorovenki buly
Alexander Sharon
Alexander Sharon
WaRR <Wa...@OjczYznA.OrG> wrote in message
news:Us093.7632$DI2....@cynws01.we.mediaone.net...
> Sorry Sharon but I dont think either side is interested in comments made
by
> a jew.
(...)
WaRR
Piss off, wanker.
Alex Sharon
Grazyna Lesniak
WaRR napisał(a) w wiadomości: ...
>
>Grazyna Lesniak wrote in message
>>Sorry Warr but Mr Popiel is right.
>I see, 3 jewish wrongs make it right.
Omne trinum perfectum ! - sorry, Warr
Grazyna
Alexander Sharon
Grazyna Lesniak <graz...@kki.net.pl> wrote in message
news:7k3543$jr2$1...@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl...
Dzieki Grazyno i Slawek Popiel.
Kto aktywuje Warra za kazdym razem?
Pozdrawiam
Olek
SBobrow940
S.B.
----
In article <19990614000032...@ng-cj1.aol.com>,
sbobr...@aol.com (SBobrow940) wrote:
> As far as Joseph Conrad (Korzeniowski) is concerned, his mother's
maiden name
> was Bobrowska and his family lived near Zytomir (west of Kiev).
> Most of the Korzeniowskis and Bobrowskis
> were forced to move out of the area after the January Uprising and the
> resulting repression.
> If they did not move at that time, most would be killed later by
"babai" and
> his cohorts.
> So much about cultural exchanges between Poles and some Ukrainians
expatriates
> fleeing from justice.
> S.B.
>
> P.S. Henryk Sienkiewicz did not get Nobel
> Aword.
He did not? I thought he got it for "Quo Vadis".
(...)
Leszek Andrzej Kleczkowski
: Kto aktywuje Warra za kazdym razem?
Piszecie o Konradzie Korzeniowskim? Piszecie! Nie wywolujcie wilka z
lasu! :-))
SBobrow940
Tam jest jakies pokrewienstwo, o ktorym wszystkiego sie nie dowiedzialem.
Moj dziadek Bobrowski zmarl chyba w 1935 r. (Urodzil sie on w Zbarazu).
Przekazal mojemu Ojcu to i tamto ale nie
bylo to zupenie jasne. Babka moja urodzila sie w latach 1880-tych w
Czerniowcach, byla pol-Francuska. Twierdzila, ze pamietala Tadeusza
Bobrowskiego, ktory zmarl w 1894 r. Musiala wtedy byc jeszcze dzieckiem a jej
rodzina i rodzina Bobrowskich musialy sie tam znac. Mnie w tym czasie
interesowal Stefan, bohater Powstania Styczniowego. Babka, ktora wtedy
przekroczyla 90-lat (zmarla majac blisko 100-tke) stwiedzila, ze nie mogla go
pamietac bo on zmarl duzo wczesniej (faktycznie 1863 lub 64).
Wiem, ze Bobrowscy z mojej linii brali udzial w Powstaniu Styczniowym i byli
sposrod nich zeslancy na Syberie.
Jesli chodzi o slynnego Tadeusza, ten byl
lojalista carskim z wyrachowania bo uwazal, ze Powstanie nie mialo szans i ze
skutkiem Powstania moglo byc tylko oslabienie polskiej pozycji na Ukrainie. I
miaj racje. W mojej linii Bobrowskich byli
rowniez Rusini o nazwisku Barutowicze, ktorzy byli wyznania unickiego, brali
udzial w Powstaniu i wraz ze swoimi polskimi kuzynami wyladowali na Syberii.
Tyle o mojej rodzinie.
Pozdrawiam,
Slawek
-------------
Slawku,
Wiec to jest panska Rodzina? Jakos nie skojarzylo mi sie to, dopiero teraz
uprzytomnilem podobienstwo nazwisk.
Gratulacje. Postac Conrada i tworczosc sa juz legenda.
Pozdrawiam
Olek
> > As far as Joseph Conrad (Korzeniowski) is concerned, his mother's maiden
> name
> > was Bobrowska and his family lived near Zytomir (west of Kiev).
> > Most of the Korzeniowskis and Bobrowskis
> > were forced to move out of the area after the January Uprising and the
> > resulting repression.
> > If they did not move at that time, most would be killed later by "babai"
> and
> > his cohorts.
> > So much about cultural exchanges between Poles and some Ukrainians
> expatriates
> > fleeing from justice.
> > S.B.
> >
> > P.S. Henryk Sienkiewicz did not get Nobel
> > Aword. I am not sure if J.Conrad did either.
> >
> > ---------------
> > bab...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > Anyway could give me a example of a Ukrainian who would be very well
> > >> known in the world?
> > >
> > >Well, Gogol (Hohol). He wrote in Russian because his own language was
> > >banned, but the literature is quite Ukrainian in theme, atmosphere and
> > >content. Few works could be more Ukrainian than Taras Bulba or the
> > >Dykanky stories.
> > >
> > >Gogol also played a huge role in the genesis of Russian literature,
> > >which is considered by many to be the best in the world (Russia is to
> > >literature as Germany/Austria are to classical music)
> > >
> > >And Gogol is far more well known/respected around the world than any
> > >Polish writer.
> > >
> >
> > Really??????
> > And he won a nobel prize???
> >
Mike Davidchik
>
> Sorry Sharon but I dont think either side is interested in comments made by
> a jew. I guess every poet, painter, scientist is a nationalist because he
> doesnt
> write about jews and jewish affairs.
>
> Like I said before - We are not interested in any jewish opinions. Please
> direct them to soc.culture.jewish instead. If jew culture is so great, I am
> sure
>
> WaRR
WaRR--you are a lousy bigot and a disgrace to these Slavic newsgroups.
Sharon is more enlightened about Polish and Ukrainian literature than you
will ever be.
I am not Jewish, but Catholic, by the way, so don't accuse me of being
another Jew or Jewish sympathizer.
Mike
bab...@my-deja.com
Reposting this onto soc.culture.polish, with some minor changes....
In article <7k6pek$5fn$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
bab...@my-deja.com wrote:
In article <376459db...@news.kwom.com>,
le...@mail.netinc.ca wrote:
> >> Schevchenko? Strictly amateur. I have no idea who considers him
> > great.
> >
> >Ah, so you are not only a historian equal to those of Harvard but
> > also
> >a literature critic. Tell me Lech, other than Lenin's crap about
> >dialectics and perhaps Sienkewicz, what have you read?
>
> Sienkiewicz, Milosz, Mickiewicz, Norwid, Tuwim, Slowacki,
> Wyspianski,
> etc.
So you have read only Polish authors?
> > >>
> >> Poor Poles:) This from a Ukrainian?:) Have you been to Ukraine??
After
> >> Albania Ukraine may just be the poorest, least edeveloped nation
in
> >> Europe. And Poland? Nato member, healthiest economy East of
Germany,
> >> soon to be EU member, recognized as the most successful implimentor
> of
> >> reforms in eastern Europe.
> >I am here referring to traditional Polish culture, the one that you
> >so
> >much admire and that was destroyed with the Communist invasion.
> >HAHA. Tell us why Ukraine is a backward nation right now??? Why cant
> >you gover your nation right??? This has all to do with your culture
> >of depending on foreig masters.
Dummy, I'm not talking about "right now". I have only admiration for
Poland "right now". BTW, Lech, if Poland followed your own
primitive 1920's ways "right now", it would be quite different -
another Brazil or Peru.
>
> >Poland was so backward culturally that, like Afghanistan, there was
> >actually some social benefit, a side effect if you will, of Communist
> >evil. The aristocracy was eliminated and normal people could achieve
> >something.
> >
> You call me a Bolshevik, yet it was Poland not Ukraine who was the
> leader in anti Soviet movement in the Eatern block.
Hungarians might disagree...
> > Polish uprisings
> > from 1956, to Solidarity, from AK and partyzants to Walesa, Poland
> > was the first country to break away, have democratic elections. And
> > Ukraine? Slave as always.
UPA fought longer than AK. Ukraine was crushed much more severely by
the Bolsheviks than was Poland, which had it rather easy compared to
UKraine.
As for recent events, it was Ukraine that destroyed the USSR in 1991.
> >
> >> You call Poles poor? What then are
> >> Ukrainians?? You think the stadard of living of a Ukrainian
> >>matches that of a Pole?:)
> >It surpasses that of a Pole when the two are placed on equal
> >terms, i.e. in America.
> >
> > HAHAHA. Another fantasy???
Dummy., I wrote the average per capitas of Ukrainians and Poles in the
USA - 17,700 for Poles and 19,900 for Ukrainians. According to the
1990 US census.
Some fantasy. Why can't you back up any of your claims with numbers
or facts? Like your claim that Poles built Ukrainian schools?
Because all you write are lies....
> >> As for Poles in America, theres a whole spectrum of it. I dont
> know
> >> many cleaning ladies and janitors. Mostly I know professionals,
> >> doctors, lawyers, business people in Chicago and Toronto.
> > >Are they new immigrants? I wouldn't doubt that at all. The modern
> > >Poles are actually met with some resentment by the traditional
> > >Poles, the products of the same Polish culture you so admire.
> > New immigrants like myself, who far outnumber the old.
Again, you are stupid. There are over 6 1/2 million Poles in America.
Are you trying to tell me that over 3 million are new immigrants?
It's almost getting boring proving you wrong, over and over and over
again.
BTW, the phrase "like myself" is an insult to most new immigrant Poles,
who are not stupid like yourself, nor liers like yourself.
> >> HAHAHA. Man, your comedy is funny:) Why cant Ukrainians run a
> >> nation if they are so smart??? Why can Poles OTOH run the most
> >> successful post communist nation, NATO member and leading candidate
> >>for EU???
> >Because the Poles have thrown away the stupid, backward ways that
> >you, Lech, a disgusting embarresment to Poles, still love so much.
> Are we talking aboiut me???
Yes.
> Answer why if Poles are so stupid,
I'm not talking about normal, modern Poles, I'm talking about you.
The stupid one.
> Poland is basically a fully European nation today.
Because it's full of people who have little in common with you, Lech.
Because dummies like you ceased to be dominant in Poland after W.W.II.
> > Eigth in the world in
> > tourism btw, NATO member, leading EU candidate, fastest growing
> > economy in Europe. Tell me, Id love to know how a superior nation
> > oike
> > Ukraine so full of geniuses is so run down.
>
Not superior, now. Too many Russians, and suffered too much in the
last 50 years, much more than Poland.
> > I have never criticised modern Poland, but rather of Poland of
> > Dmowski, Piderewski, etc. etc. - the backward Poland of the 1920's
> > and 1930's.
> > The Poland of that time, the time that you view so heroically, were
> > indeed 90% ignorand and backward cattle and 10% literate and
> > educated masters.
> More fantasy. You loved Haller until you found ou he was Polish. Now
> he is backward.
Back up your accusation of "more fantasy" with examples please.
You can't, as usual.
As for Haller,the state he fought for was indeed backward.
> >Poland today obviously should be very admired by everyone.
> Yet you call Polish immigrants backward and stupid. Funny how you
> cant deny the truth.
Move that ball of shit on top of your neck, Lech, closer to the
computer screen. Open your stupid mouth and repeat my sentence:
"Poland _today_ obviously should be admired by everyone".
Got that? *Today*. Hope I helped you understand.
> You were not talking about 1920s Poland when you
> mentioned your Ph.D friend, thats today isnt it.
My friend is a product of pre-war Ukrainian culture, when his family
left Ukraine. Just as the bulk of Polish-American illiterate factory
workers are the product of pre-War Polish culture.
Got it?
> Tell me how so many Ph.Ds can be so bad a running Ukraine?
> >> Do you really believe this? Your whole argument is
> >>anecdotal garbage.
> >Oh?
> >In the 1990 census, the medium income of a Ukrainian in America was
> > >$19,943 while that of a Pole was $17,722.
> >The disparity grows when one considers the fact that the oldest
> >generation of Ukrainians, the janitors such as my friend's
> >grandfather, were much poorer than their descendants, while
> >comparatively large immigration of educated post-Communist Poles
> >(who have little to do with the backwardness that you, Lech,
> >represent) may have pushed up the Polish numbers.
> >Still, despite those, and despite Ukrainians being kept by the
> >Poles in extreme backwardness, on equal terms the Ukrainian peasants
> >surpassed the Polish ones.
> Really? What are today's Ukrainian peasants doing in Ukraine vesrus
> Polish peaants in Poland??? Has Ukraine surpassed Poland??? Do you
> imply that Polish immigrants are more intelligent than Ukes?? Since
> Poland's average is raised higher as you say???
Idiot, you are comparing apples and oranges. An equal comparison
would be found in the USA or Canada.
> >The data shows that your mentioning of your lawyer and doctor
> >friends is "anecdotal garbage".
> > Nah, my data is Poland vs Ukraine. 2 post communist nations, 1
> > joining Europe's infrastaructure, the oher joining Uzbekistan. Guess
> > which one is which.
Not so simple. Ukraine was much for "communistic" for 50 years than
Poland, Hungary, etc. And unlike Poland Ukraine has 22% Russians who
quite often vote communistic, and another 20% or so Russified
Ukrainians who do the same.
> >> Take a look at Poland and Ukraine, then tell me who is more
> >> intelligent, more hard working, more organized and more capable
> >> of running a nation. It wont be tha backward Ukraine with massive
> >> debt loads and an economy not much better than Albania's.
> > You are comparing apples to oranges, fool. During the last 50
> > years
> > Ukrainians were in amuch more communistic regime, thus post-1991
> > they have started from a huge disadvantage in comparison to the > >
Poles.
> >Moreover, unlike Poland, Ukraine is burdened with a large Russian
> >minority who, like Lech, prefers slavery over freedom.
> >In order to make an equal comparison of Poles and Ukrainians it is
> >necessary to select a nuetral site, such as America or Canada, and
> >see what kind of a life Poles and Ukrainians were able to make for
> >themselves. I have already shown you the results.
> What a joke. You cant win this can you. Just see POland and Ukraine,
> nd see which nation is European, which is not.
What's wrong, you can't read? See above why you can't compare
Ukraine and Poland today. They started off the 1990's in a
completely different place.
Does the word "confound" mean anything to you?
> >> Not as laughable as you telling me how stupid Poles are and how
> >>.smart
> >> Ukrainians are
> >When given an equal chance, Ukrainians have beaten Poles in
> >organization, education, etc. etc, every time.
> Every time?:) How many Uke nobel prize winners?????? How many Ukes
> doiung anything of value???
>
Once again, reread what I wrote. "When given an equal chance".
It's kind of hard to
compete on "equal terms" when Poles were shutting down Ukrainian
schools, burning down Ukrainian libraries, preventing Ukrainians from
studying in universities, etc. etc.
I wonder, after a few centuries of Nazi occupation, how many Polish
nobel lauriates there would be, hmmm Lech?
> >You know, the "Civilized" Poles are Chicago's largest non-minority
> >ethnic group. I'm not sure if this is still the case, but for
years
> >Chicago was the largest Polish city in the world after Warsaw.
> >Yet,
> > >those human cattle never succeeded in electing a mayor of that
city,
> > >although a Czech, a black, and others were mayors.
> >
> But that shows that Poles dont have a ghetto mentality. Poles dont
> vote on that basis, but try to become part of the society.
Just an excuse.
> >I could go on and on, of course. But the picture is clear: Poles
> >could only hold the Ukrainians back through force, and on equal terms
> >their primitive feudalistic culture was no match for that of the >
>lowest of Ukrainian peasants.
> While you do that, list for me the Polish and Uke Nobel prize
> winners
> in literature, peace prize, science, medicine. I dare you.
> See below. I'm posting a list of ukrainian nobel prize winners,
> scientists, etc later. Rather a lot, given the huge disadvantages and
> obstacles Ukrainians had to overcome, in comparison to most other
> nations.
...cut...
> > I will end this post by leaving you an example of the impact that
> > pre WWII Poland had on American culture: a humerous example of the
> > Polish way of life.
> Racist joke snipped.
Why snipped? That joke was told to me by a Polish-American.
Apparently it hits too close to home for you. Perhaps you and one of
your doctor/lawyer friends has gone hunting recently?
Pravda oko kolut' as they say.
> Fantastic joke Babai. Nothing like a jelous semi-Uke spouting his
> envy at what he knows is right Poles have always succeeded.
Jealous? Of what? Trash such as yourself?
I could have very easily been a "Pole", and been at the top of your
primitive feudal society, had my family been indecent enough to forsake
their people and their fate.
How many of your relatives died at Katyn Lech?
Probably they weren't *good* enough to have been martyred there.
It seems you are the jealous one.
Babai
>
> > From a huge
> > Empire to the most successful economy east of Germany. While Ukes
have
> > neve been a factor in anything. Thats the real joke my friend.
bab...@my-deja.com
> maiden name
> was Bobrowska and his family lived near Zytomir (west of Kiev).
> Most of the Korzeniowskis and Bobrowskis
> were forced to move out of the area after the January Uprising and the
> resulting repression.
> If they did not move at that time, most would be killed later by
> "babai" and his cohorts.
> So much about cultural exchanges between Poles and some Ukrainians
> expatriates fleeing from justice.
> S.B.
I wonder if that former RAF pilot Pan Nowak who used to visit us was
also "fleeing" from justice. After all, he didn't go back to
his native country after W.W. II either....
> P.S. Henryk Sienkiewicz did not get Nobel
> Aword. I am not sure if J.Conrad did either.
????? He sure did.
> ---------------
> bab...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Anyway could give me a example of a Ukrainian who would be very well
> >> known in the world?
> >
> Well, Gogol (Hohol). He wrote in Russian because his own language
> was banned, but the literature is quite Ukrainian in theme, atmosphere
> and content. Few works could be more Ukrainian than Taras Bulba or
> the Dykanky stories.
>Gogol also played a huge role in the genesis of Russian literature,
>which is considered by many to be the best in the world (Russia is to
>literature as Germany/Austria are to classical music)
> >
> >And Gogol is far more well known/respected around the world than any
> >Polish writer.
> >
>
> Really??????
> And he won a nobel prize???
You really beleive that *any* of the below are more famous/respected
around the world than Gogol?
Nobel prize or not, now that's funny...
Lets name the Polish Nobel Laureates, supposedly less respected:
Wislawa Szymborska, Czeslaw Milosz, Wladyslaw Reymont, Henryk
Sienkiewicz. And how many Ukrainians???
> What about the greatest novelist in English language, Joseph Conrad???
-------------------------------------
Hmmm....we'd better forget about James Joyce, Faulkner, Hemmingway,
Algren etc. etc. Conrad is pretty good, but your fairy-tale
level of exaggeration is simply amazing here.
I suppose when Bobrowski and RPP start "assing" each other on usenet,
the stupidity increases exponentially...
Babai
> He was a Pole, learned
> English as a sailor on a British merchant ship.
>
> >Of course there is also Archipenko, one of the world's most important
> >cubist sculptors (you can look him up in any Encyclopedia if you
wish),
> >etc.
> >
> >The Poles have Chopin of course.
> >
>
> We sure do. We also have Paderewski, Penderecki, Gorecki to name just
> 3 world famous composers.
> What about movies?Wajda, Kieslowski, Polanski, Agnieszka Holland all
> world famous.
> Literature? I already gave you a few Nobel Laureates, but would add
> Mickiewicz, Norwid, Tuwim, Kraszewski, Kochanowski, Rey, Slowacki,
> Lem, Joseph Conrad, Leopold Staff, etc.
> Painting? Matejko, Kossak, Brandt, Wyspianski, etc.
>
> The fact is that Ukraine is a small potato on the world scale. Poles
> have been huge contributors to the world from Copernicus to Marie
> Curie, Poles were huge players on every stage. Ukes were not.
>
> And btw, im sending this to soc.culture.polish so you cant hide your
> ignorance.
>
>
bab...@my-deja.com
In article <37645fe4...@news.kwom.com>,
le...@mail.netinc.ca wrote:
...cut....(bulk dealt with in reply to SBorow, but this is a special
wisdom so I'm repeating it)
> What about the greatest
> novelist in English language, Joseph Conrad??? He was a Pole, learned
> English as a sailor on a British merchant ship.
The above sentance is a better indicator of your credibility and
objectivity than any of the other ridiculous and stupid things you have
written. Thank you. I beleive I can, in the future, waste less time by
merely reposting this particular example of your "wisdom" whenever
your intellect present itself in the future.
I mean, never mind James Joyce, Fitzgerald, Hemmingway, Algren,
Faulkner, etc. etc.
They weren't Poles for God's sake!
Once again dzienkuyu bardzo (sic), Lech.
Babai
bab...@my-deja.com
le...@mail.netinc.ca wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Jun 1999 04:27:56 GMT, "Alexander Sharon"
> <a.sh...@home.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> And he won a nobel prize???
> >
> >Mr RPP,
> >
> >Please at least do not show your ignorance. Nobel prize was not even
on the
> >horizons when Nikolai Gogol (Mykola Hohol) wrote his works in 19th
century.
>
> before 1905. He was respected for his body of work. The Nobel prize is
> not the Oscars where only things done that year are considered.
> Szymborska got her prize for her works before 1997. When Baba writes
> Gogol is more rspected than any Polish writer, I ask where is Gogol's
> nobel prize?
Ok. This is almost as funny as your coment about Conrad being the
greatest English language novelist.
Sienkewicz was not even distantly close in stature to either
Gogol or Tolstoy.
bab...@my-deja.com
sbobr...@aol.com (SBobrow940) wrote:
> Lech,
> If it were not for that twisted Mr./Mrs./Miss "babai" I wouldn't try
> this kind of contest. On the other hand, his (babai's) only goal is to
> get somehow "even" his sick way. A shear case of low-class/no-class.
> "babai" reminds me of the defendent in a murder case where the victims
> were his mother and his father and his plea for mercy was that he was
> orphan. The "babais" exterminated their own Rus upper class because
> those poor devils too often spoke Polish. And now "the orphans" are
> trying to reposess the Rus culture and history. Haaaaa...
Many of those "Rus upper class" conspired to poison my (distant)
relative the last kniaz of Galicia. They sacrificed first their
state, and gradually their language, and religion for personal gain.
A more apt analogy would be if a mother killed her husband, married a
foreignor, learned his ways and introduced this new foreignors savage
ways such as child abuse into her family.
Eventually, the children were forced to kill both "parents" in
desperation.
That would correspond to the Rus' (and not *all* by any means) nobles
killing off their kniaz, letting in the foreigner, and adopting the
foreigner's ways of serfdom and inequality on their land. Hey, if theyt
were unsrupulous and felt no responsibility towards their own people
and/or their faith, that was not a bad way for them to go.
In Rus' times even the peasants had rights before the law and could not
be mistreated as they were centuries later under feudalistic Poland.
Babai
> S.B.
>
> -----------
> On Mon, 14 Jun 1999 04:27:56 GMT, "Alexander Sharon"
> <a.sh...@home.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Really??????
> >> And he won a nobel prize???
> >
> >Mr RPP,
> >
> >Please at least do not show your ignorance. Nobel prize was not even
on the
> >horizons when Nikolai Gogol (Mykola Hohol) wrote his works in 19th
century.
>
> Well, Sienkiewicz received the Nobel prize for works he wrote well
> before 1905. He was respected for his body of work. The Nobel prize is
> not the Oscars where only things done that year are considered.
> Szymborska got her prize for her works before 1997. When Baba writes
> Gogol is more rspected than any Polish writer, I ask where is Gogol's
> nobel prize?
>
>
bab...@my-deja.com
"Alexander Sharon" <a.sh...@home.com> wrote:
> --
> Alexander Sharon> news:376493bf...@news.kwom.com...
> > On Mon, 14 Jun 1999 04:27:56 GMT, "Alexander Sharon"
> > <a.sh...@home.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Really??????
> > >> And he won a nobel prize???
> > >
> > >Mr RPP,
> > >
> > >Please at least do not show your ignorance. Nobel prize was not
even on
> the
> > >horizons when Nikolai Gogol (Mykola Hohol) wrote his works in 19th
> century.
> >
> >
> > Well, Sienkiewicz received the Nobel prize for works he wrote well
> > before 1905. He was respected for his body of work. The Nobel prize
is
> > not the Oscars where only things done that year are considered.
> > Szymborska got her prize for her works before 1997. When Baba writes
> > Gogol is more rspected than any Polish writer, I ask where is
Gogol's
> > nobel prize?
>
> is not awarded to the deceased authors.
Yup. Vasyl' Stus was due to receive a nobel prize but, as he was a
dissidant, the KGB murdered him in his cell before he could collect it.
Babai
> Lev Tolstoy and Anton Chekhov didn't receive Nobel Prize either, and
> they were alive when Prize was already awarded.
> What does this all prove anyway?
>
> Alexander Sharon
>
>
bab...@my-deja.com
le...@mail.netinc.ca wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Jun 1999 04:27:56 GMT, "Alexander Sharon"
> <a.sh...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >conservative and an upholder of autocracy and serfdom, and his comedy
> >"Revizor" and the novel "Miortvyje Dushy" ("Dead Souls") were
destroying
> >things he stood for.
>
> You mean he was all the things baba accuses me of being and accuses
> Poles for being?
All irrelevent. MBacal asked me who was a famous well known Ukrainian,
and I answered. If you, Lech, ever achieve the status of Gogol, I will
forgive your Moscow boot-licking, cattle, slave, mentality as well.
Good luck.
Babai
An anti-freedom, moscow boot kissing, cattle???? Wow,
> more baba ignorance? Maybe Magocsi didnt mention this when baba was
> looking desperately for someone notable from Ukraine.
>
>
bab...@my-deja.com
"Alexander Sharon" <a.sh...@home.com> wrote:
>
> I am afraid that the both of you arrived at the dead street. Instead
> of comparison of two cultures, Polish and Ukrainian, finding
> similarities and common influences or interactions (and there are so
> many), you have decided to follow an opposite direction- the direction
> of disagreement. One can see glass being half empty, and the other
> seeing it as half full.
Well, I only protest any and all rationalizations for Polish
imperialism in Ukraine, for the exact reason that it is now so
deservedly rare and consigned to another, primitive age.
I mean, I would expect this coming from some Russian savages, and
maybe would be less likely to be so assertive in my response.
> May I suggest that both of you abandon this discussion, and cool down.
There
> are no winners. Perhaps only one positive thing is that this
discussion had
> forced both of you to do some serious reference searching, which is
always
> very educational process in itself.
Your somewhat patronizing attitude is noted, but I do not protest
because you have at least contributed quite a bit of intelligent
commentary and information to this NG unlike Lech "RPP".
Na vse dobre,
Babai
>
> Pozdrowienia
> Zdorovenki buly
> Alexander Sharon
>
>
bab...@my-deja.com
> made by a jew. I guess every poet, painter, scientist is a nationalist
> because he doesnt write about jews and jewish affairs.
>
> Like I said before - We are not interested in any jewish opinions.
> Please direct them to soc.culture.jewish instead. If jew culture is so
> s.c.j.
Scratch a Polish imperialist/feudalist and you eventually find an
antisemite. Probably your moral twins were involved int he 3-day
pogrom in Lviv following the Polish "liberation" in November 21 1918.
Babai
> WaRR
>
> WaRR
bab...@my-deja.com
I'm surprized Lech has not (yet) exposed himself; I guess he is getting
too much mileage out of the old Bolshevik Ukrainian nationalist=Nazi
lie, however.
Alexander Sharon
> In article <Gn593.12282$uC5....@news.rdc1.ab.wave.home.com>,
> Your somewhat patronizing attitude is noted, but I do not protest
> because you have at least contributed quite a bit of intelligent
> commentary and information to this NG unlike Lech "RPP".
>
>
> Na vse dobre,
>
> Babai
My sincere appologies for accidently assuming patronizing position.I've been
just trying do mediate, but I do agree with you, it sounds bloody pathetic.
Dyakuyu
Alex
SBobrow940
National News
U.S. immigrant is accused of Nazi crimes
PHILADELPHIA - The Justice Department asked a federal judge to strip a
76-year-old man of his U.S. citizenship, alleging he lied about his past as a
Nazi SS prison-camp guard when he entered this country.
Fedir Kwoczak said that when he applied for an entry visa in 1949 he worked on
farms in Poland and Germany during World War II.
But the government alleged in its complaint filed Monday that Kwoczak served as
a Ukrainian SS guard and helped the Nazis slaughter thousands of Jews in the
Warsaw ghetto and elsewhere in Poland.
Officials said Kwoczak was recruited from the SS-run Trawniki Training Camp in
Nazi-occupied Poland to participate in "Operation Reinhard," a program to
exterminate Poland's Jews.
"Trawniki men played an instrumental role in carrying out Adolf Hitler's
genocidal
(..)
flight of the phoenix
Disagree.
I found instead an attempt at mediation.
Unfortunately, there is to much "we", "us", "you", "they",
in this discussion along with too many (ignoring the personal)
insults.
It has become more or less, indeed a urination contest to a greater
and lesser extent on the part of some posters.
phoenix
>
> Dyakuyu
> Alex
RPP
<flight-of-...@home.com> wrote:
>Disagree.
>I found instead an attempt at mediation.
>Unfortunately, there is to much "we", "us", "you", "they",
>in this discussion along with too many (ignoring the personal)
>insults.
>
>It has become more or less, indeed a urination contest to a greater
>and lesser extent on the part of some posters.
>
>phoenix
>
>
Yes it has. Baba the part time amteur Ukrainian wants desperately to
feel he is a Uke so he is being an idiot.
Leszek Andrzej Kleczkowski
: We sure do. We also have Paderewski, Penderecki, Gorecki to name just
: 3 world famous composers.
: What about movies?Wajda, Kieslowski, Polanski, Agnieszka Holland all
: world famous.
: Literature? I already gave you a few Nobel Laureates, but would add
: Mickiewicz, Norwid, Tuwim, Kraszewski, Kochanowski, Rey, Slowacki,
: Lem, Joseph Conrad, Leopold Staff, etc.
: Painting? Matejko, Kossak, Brandt, Wyspianski, etc.
: The fact is that Ukraine is a small potato on the world scale. Poles
: have been huge contributors to the world from Copernicus to Marie
: Curie, Poles were huge players on every stage. Ukes were not.
: And btw, im sending this to soc.culture.polish so you cant hide your
: ignorance.
Panie Lechu, this is getting really silly! Less then 1% of world
population knows about Paderewski or Mickiewicz, not to mention Rey or
Matejko. I am sure the Ukraininas have their own masters, on a comparable
scale. BTW, the most known and reverred Poles in the world are Walesa,
John Paul II, and Boniek, maybe Deyna, forget Copernicus or Sklodowska!.
Speaking of football, Dinamo Kijev has now probably the most exciting
striker around - Schevchenko! He is the Ukrainian pride and rightly so!
I would be immensely proud if we can find a footballer like him in Legia
Warsaw! What are the chances for that?
Why not find something that unites Poles and Ukraininas (Czajkowski
and his work?:-)) instead of endind up in silly charades of a
my-manhood-is-larger-than-yours type? Whether we want it or not we
Poles and Ukrainians will have to live side by side for the centuries to
come, Ukraine is a buffer protecting Poland from Russia, why not working
on smoothing the relations instead of bickering?
Regards
Rostyslaw Lewyckyj
On Sun, 13 Jun 1999, WaRR wrote:
> Alexander Sharon wrote in message ...
>
> >I hate this fruitless discussion. What are you guys trying to achieve for
> >God sake? I grew up between Polish and Ukrainian cultures, with some
> >additional mix of Russian nd Jewish. All literature and cultures are closed
> >to me, they all in certain degree have developed my character and world
> >vision. I read also in translations English and French literature as a
> young
> >boy, later I could read an originals.. All those literary works, music,
> >paintongs, architecture are above nationalism. This is called culture of
> the
> >world. Ukrainians have contributed as much as they could to world common
> >culture. I had mentioned some Ukrainians writers of the 19th century. If
> Mr.
> >RIP read at leat one book of those writers, I will be greatly surprised.
> >
> >Alexander Sharon
>
>
> Sorry Sharon but I dont think either side is interested in comments made by
> a jew. I guess every poet, painter, scientist is a nationalist because he
> doesnt
> write about jews and jewish affairs.
>
> Like I said before - We are not interested in any jewish opinions. Please
> direct them to soc.culture.jewish instead. If jew culture is so great, I am
> sure
> you will find many great topics to write about on s.c.j.
>
> WaRR
>
WaRR
We all are not at all surprised by your reaction. It is completely
in character with the level of your other postings.
It is however amusing that you and cohorts claim the movie director
Polanski (Nuz v vodzie) as a great Pole. :)
Perhaps you also wish to place your claim on Felix (Dzerzinski sp?)
However if a jew of any nationality were writing in support of your
views, why then I am sure you would add your, me too, comments
with glee and complete silence on the posters cultural background.
The best description for a person of your type is bigot!
--Rostyk
Krzysztof Wroblewski
<urj...@email.unc.edu> wrote:
> Perhaps you also wish to place your claim on Felix (Dzerzinski sp?)
Of course that exerybody claims him. Nobody killed more Russians than
this great Polish patriot :)
Krzysztof Wroblewski
jerzy wk
"WaRR" <Wa...@OjczYznA.OrG> wrote:
>
> Sorry Sharon but I dont think either side is interested in comments
> made by a jew.
>
> WaRR
>
Speak for yourself, WaRR! I like Alex's comments.
Jerzy WK
jerzy wk
flight of the phoenix
>
> In article <Us093.7632$DI2....@cynws01.we.mediaone.net>,
> "WaRR" <Wa...@OjczYznA.OrG> wrote:
>
> >
> > Sorry Sharon but I dont think either side is interested in comments
> > made by a jew.
> >
> > WaRR
> >
>
> Speak for yourself, WaRR! I like Alex's comments.
YEAH!
Me too!
phoenix
bab...@my-deja.com
> >
> > <bab...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:7k7158$7tu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > > In article <Gn593.12282$uC5....@news.rdc1.ab.wave.home.com>,
> >
> > > Your somewhat patronizing attitude is noted, but I do not protest
> > > because you have at least contributed quite a bit of intelligent
> > > commentary and information to this NG unlike Lech "RPP".
> > >
> > >
> > > Na vse dobre,
> > >
> > > Babai
> >
> > My sincere appologies for accidently assuming patronizing
position.I've been
> > just trying do mediate, but I do agree with you, it sounds bloody
pathetic.
>
> I found instead an attempt at mediation.
> Unfortunately, there is to much "we", "us", "you", "they",
> in this discussion along with too many (ignoring the personal)
> insults.
>
> It has become more or less, indeed a urination contest to a greater
> and lesser extent on the part of some posters.
True. Therefore, I will once again try to stick to facts about
historical situations, rather than facts about individuals, exit the
"urination contest" and allow Lech to piss himself as usual.
Babai
>
> phoenix
>
> >
> > Dyakuyu
> > Alex
Alexander Sharon
flight of the phoenix <flight-of-...@home.com> wrote in message
news:37696279...@home.com...
> jerzy wk wrote:
> >
> > In article <Us093.7632$DI2....@cynws01.we.mediaone.net>,
> > "WaRR" <Wa...@OjczYznA.OrG> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Sorry Sharon but I dont think either side is interested in comments
> > > made by a jew.
> > >
> > > WaRR
> > >
> >
> > Speak for yourself, WaRR! I like Alex's comments.
>
> YEAH!
>
> Me too!
>
> phoenix
>
> >
> > Jerzy WK
Thanks fellas.
Alex Sharon
CU333Write
no university with an English literature program worth its salt that does not
includes study of Joseph Conrad's work. His innovative restructuring of time,
psychological depth, unusual narrative techniques, and dramatic manipulation of
events helped usher in the modern movement in literature. Conrad influenced
many of the other English writers named in Babai's post. English literature
would be much the poorer without Lord Jim, Heart of Darkness, Nostromo, The
Secret Agent, The Nigger of the Narcissus or his other major works.
The fact that he achieved his major place in world literature by writing in
what was essentially his third language only adds to his greatness.
mba...@my-deja.com
krzy...@hotmail.com (Krzysztof Wroblewski) wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Jun 1999 02:21:52 -0400, Rostyslaw Lewyckyj
> <urj...@email.unc.edu> wrote:
>
> > Perhaps you also wish to place your claim on Felix (Dzerzinski sp?)
>
> Of course that exerybody claims him. Nobody killed more Russians than
> this great Polish patriot :)
than that Russian had poor chance of surviving. Polish patriotism! :)
> Krzysztof Wroblewski
bab...@my-deja.com
I agree with all of the below. He was quite influential but can not be
considered the greatest, the father, etc. etc. etc.
Gogol's influences were similarly great on Russian works.
Babai
In article <19990618004628...@ng-cf1.aol.com>,
RPP
>
>
>I agree with all of the below. He was quite influential but can not be
>considered the greatest, the father, etc. etc. etc.
>
He cant be considered the greatest because you say so?
>Gogol's influences were similarly great on Russian works.
Western universitis that you so love offer courses on Conrad, not
Gogol. Shove that where flight would love to suck it out of.
bab...@my-deja.com
le...@mail.netinc.ca wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Jun 1999 22:19:46 GMT, bab...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >I agree with all of the below. He was quite influential but can not
be
> >considered the greatest, the father, etc. etc. etc.
> >
>
> He cant be considered the greatest because you say so?
Because very very few say so.
>
> >Gogol's influences were similarly great on Russian works.
>
> Western universitis that you so love offer courses on Conrad, not
> Gogol. Shove that where flight would love to suck it out of.
Because few of them offer say Ph.D.'s in Russian literature while many
offer such in English literature. So this means nothing.
Frankly, I'm rather surprised that you who claimed that Conrad was
"the father of the English novel" are so insolent that you continue to
try your attempts at literary criticism. I wouldn't be suprized if
Conrad was the only English literature you've ever read, frankly.
RPP
>
>Because few of them offer say Ph.D.'s in Russian literature while many
>offer such in English literature. So this means nothing.
>
>Frankly, I'm rather surprised that you who claimed that Conrad was
>"the father of the English novel" are so insolent that you continue to
>try your attempts at literary criticism. I wouldn't be suprized if
>Conrad was the only English literature you've ever read, frankly.
>
>
>Babai
I wil admit you have an advantage over me in English language
literature, since it is the literature of your language. Whike you
started reading it from childhood I did not. I read Sienkiewicz,
Norwid, Mickiewicz, Milosz, Slowacki, Krasinski, Lem, etc.