Stalin's Legacy: The Russian challenge
WakWak
Stalin's Legacy
The Russian challenge.
By David Satter
Fifty years after his death, Josef Stalin's influence is still felt in
the country he brutalized.
In a recent poll conducted by the Russian Center for Public Opinion,
53 percent of the respondents said that they considered Stalin to be a
great historical figure and, in a separate poll, 36 percent of the
respondents said that they believed that he was more good than bad.
This belated affection for Stalin reflects a trend that is the
opposite of the trend in Germany where, as the years passed, the
attitude toward Nazism and Hitler became increasingly negative. The
poll results, however, are not the most serious aspect of Stalin's
legacy for Russia. The genocide that Stalin inflicted on his own
nation shaped the psychology of the Soviet people and its lingering
influence helps to define the character of Russia today.
Russia has undergone huge changes since 1985, including the overthrow
of the Communist dictatorship, but at a fundamental level, the
Stalinist inheritance is reflected in three ways; by the absolute
priority attributed to the interests of the state, the lack of
individual moral standards on the part of the population and the low
value attached to human life.
In Russia, political goals are instinctively given priority over the
welfare of individuals. When the reform process began, prices were
freed without warning wiping out the life savings of virtually the
entire population. Persons who had saved for years to buy a car or
apartment or had put money aside for a wedding or funeral were left
with nothing. At the same time, the reform process was carried out
without the protection of law. Reformers who considered themselves
"anti-Communist" and, of course, anti-Stalinist made no effort to
protect the lives or moral condition of the population as they
introduced radical economic reforms at a breakneck pace and the
resulting social transformation led directly to Russia's
criminalization and a death rate so high that, at first, Western
demographers did not believe the figures. In all, the reform process
was accompanied by between five and six million "surplus" deaths, a
result registered previously in Russia in peacetime only under
conditions of famine or during the years of Stalin's great terror.
Besides a fixation with political goals on the part of the government,
Russia's Stalinist inheritance is reflected in the lack of reliable
moral standards on the part of the population.
At the present time, virtually every Russian business pays protection
money to a criminal organization. The gangs take a cut of each
business's receipts in return for "guarding" them and the practice is
so well established that both gangsters and ordinary citizens treat
the demand for tribute as a legitimate obligation.
At the same time, Russians have grown relatively indifferent to the
criminal ties of government officials. In general, if a person is an
official, it is assumed that he is corrupt and it is considered
praiseworthy if, in addition, to lining his own pockets, he does
something for the population.
Russians are also ready to vote for persons who have criminal pasts or
known criminal connections. The rationale is that such persons are
really no worse than those who pretend to be respectable and because
they are already rich will have slightly less reason to steal.
Finally, the Stalinist inheritance in Russia is reflected in the
country's lack of respect for human life. The state no longer
deliberately murders millions of people but the conviction bequeathed
by the Stalin era that individuals are expendable permeates everyday
life.
Russians attach little value to their own lives or to the lives of
anyone else. According to official statistics, "unnatural deaths," for
the most part the result of murder, traffic accidents, and vodka
account for the deaths of nearly a quarter of a million persons in
Russia a year. Russians who find themselves in dangerous situations
can rarely count on timely help. Ambulances are chronically late and
hospitals undersupplied and understaffed. The police, who are
assiduous when it comes to collecting bribes, don't rush when it is a
matter of providing aid.
Perhaps the most graphic recent examples of the indifference to human
life in Russia were provided by the episode involving the submarine,
"Kursk" and the recent Moscow hostage crisis. In the case of the
Kursk, the Russian government, fearing exposure of state secrets and
its own incompetence, refused foreign help in rescuing the trapped
submariners, at least 23 of whom survived the explosion which sunk the
ship. In the case of the hostage crisis, the Russian authorities
flooded a closed building with lethal gas killing 136 hostages (70
more are still missing) rather than negotiate steps toward ending the
war in Chechnya.
Russia has now had 50 years to recover from Stalinism but the
consequences of the massive Stalinist effort to create reality by
force set the stage for a downward spiral that threatens Russia's
future.
The primacy of politics, lack of moral orientation, and disrespect for
human life in Russia all worked to redefine what it means to be a
human being, reducing the average person to a cog in the realization
of a "great idea."
Such an outcome, however, can only destroy the essence of human
dignity that implies the capacity for moral choice.
As Stalin's popularity grows, there is a possibility that he will join
the pantheon of Russian national heroes that includes Peter the Great
and, to a degree, Ivan the Terrible. If this happens, the evil that
Stalin exemplified will be treated as a legitimate part of the Russian
national tradition.
Such an outcome illustrates the vital stake of the civilized world in
preventing new Stalins. Stalinism envisages unlimited violence in the
pursuit of a supposedly "higher" goal. For this reason, it is a
temptation to new waves of fanatics who are unwilling to tolerate any
limitation on their drive for power. Their drive for power, however,
can wound a civilization fundamentally. So those aspiring to use
Stalinist methods need to be stopped before they can begin.
--— David Satter is a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute, research
fellow at the Hoover Institution, and visiting scholar at the Johns
Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS).
Satter's latest book, Darkness at Dawn: The Rise of the Russian
Criminal State will be out next month from the Yale University Press.
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-satter031403.asp
Watchdog
>March 14, 2003, 9:00 a.m.
>
>Stalin's Legacy
>
>The Russian challenge.
>
>By David Satter
<snip>
>
>Perhaps the most graphic recent examples of the indifference to human
>life in Russia were provided by the episode involving the submarine,
>"Kursk" and the recent Moscow hostage crisis. In the case of the
>Kursk, the Russian government, fearing exposure of state secrets and
>its own incompetence, refused foreign help in rescuing the trapped
>submariners, at least 23 of whom survived the explosion which sunk the
>ship. In the case of the hostage crisis, the Russian authorities
>flooded a closed building with lethal gas killing 136 hostages (70
>more are still missing) rather than negotiate steps toward ending the
>war in Chechnya.
Wow! So let me get this straight. Just because Russia does not give
into terrorist demands who held hostage hundreds of civillans, even
killing some of them,and threatening to kill all of them. Plus its a
state that wants to protect its military secrets. Then this somehow
proves the legacy of Joseph Stalin is alive and well in modern Russia?
I dont see president Bush negotiating with Bin Laden and I dont think
he has plans to go to Baghdad to try and find a peaceful resolution to
the current crisis. So exactly who was the Stalin like figure in the
history of the US that has left its legacy that causes these problems?
Or is this once again double standards being applied? Oh and another
thing the article did not mention is that Stalin is adored much more
in his native Georgia than in Russia itself, yet I guess all the other
Soviet republics are excempted from his legacy somehow. How nice.
Jonhillr
>In a recent poll conducted by the Russian Center for Public Opinion,
>53 percent of the respondents said that they considered Stalin to be a
>great historical figure and, in a separate poll, 36 percent of the
>respondents said that they believed that he was more good than bad.
Amazing isn't it?
Kill 30 million people - and still be honored by 36% of russians..
>This belated affection for Stalin reflects a trend that is the
>opposite of the trend in Germany where, as the years passed, the
>attitude toward Nazism and Hitler became increasingly negative.
That's because russia has never faced criminal proceedings for its governments
war crimes. They haven't even admitted that they committed war crimes.
>The genocide that Stalin inflicted on his own
>nation shaped the psychology of the Soviet people and its lingering
>influence helps to define the character of Russia today.
I'm not sure about that.
I view the russian Stalinist and Putinist psychology as a continuation of the
slave mentality that has existed in the russian psyche since the Mongol
invasions and the population's degeneration into 'slave mentality'.
>Stalinist inheritance is reflected in three ways; by the absolute
>priority attributed to the interests of the state, the lack of
>individual moral standards on the part of the population and the low
>value attached to human life.
Exactly what would be expected from a long-term slave population.
>In Russia, political goals are instinctively given priority over the
>welfare of individuals. When the reform process began, prices were
>freed without warning wiping out the life savings of virtually the
>entire population. Persons who had saved for years to buy a car or
>apartment or had put money aside for a wedding or funeral were left
>with nothing. At the same time, the reform process was carried out
>without the protection of law. Reformers who considered themselves
>"anti-Communist" and, of course, anti-Stalinist made no effort to
>protect the lives or moral condition of the population as they
>introduced radical economic reforms at a breakneck pace and the
>resulting social transformation led directly to Russia's
>criminalization and a death rate so high that, at first, Western
>demographers did not believe the figures.
Same thing. Re-labelling is almost meaningless. Note that the latter day
nomenklatura/oligarchs (who were protected in russian 'economic
democratization') are nothing more than a continuation of the mediaval russian
'boyar' class; ie. the movers and shakers who derived their economic advatanges
from service to the monarchy/state.
>Besides a fixation with political goals on the part of the government,
>Russia's Stalinist inheritance is reflected in the lack of reliable
>moral standards on the part of the population.
Serfdom is mentally debilitating.
>At the same time, Russians have grown relatively indifferent to the
>criminal ties of government officials. In general, if a person is an
>official, it is assumed that he is corrupt and it is considered
>praiseworthy if, in addition, to lining his own pockets, he does
>something for the population.
Again, a slave attitude of respect for a 'headman'.
>In the case of the hostage crisis, the Russian authorities
>flooded a closed building with lethal gas killing 136 hostages (70
>more are still missing) rather than negotiate steps toward ending the
>war in Chechnya.
Amazing how 70 theater goers sealed in a guarded theater could have
'disappeared', isn't it? Were they beamed off-planet?
>So those aspiring to use
>Stalinist methods need to be stopped before they can begin.
Ok, so what is anyone doing about Putin in Chechnya?
jonhill
Josh Dougherty
news:45278a0c.03031...@posting.google.com...
> March 14, 2003, 9:00 a.m.
>
> Stalin's Legacy
>
> The Russian challenge.
>
> By David Satter
>
>
>
> Fifty years after his death, Josef Stalin's influence is still felt in
> the country he brutalized.
(snip)
> In Russia, political goals are instinctively given priority over the
> welfare of individuals. When the reform process began, prices were
> freed without warning wiping out the life savings of virtually the
> entire population. Persons who had saved for years to buy a car or
> apartment or had put money aside for a wedding or funeral were left
> with nothing. At the same time, the reform process was carried out
> without the protection of law. Reformers who considered themselves
> "anti-Communist" and, of course, anti-Stalinist made no effort to
> protect the lives or moral condition of the population as they
> introduced radical economic reforms at a breakneck pace and the
> resulting social transformation led directly to Russia's
> criminalization and a death rate so high that, at first, Western
> demographers did not believe the figures. In all, the reform process
> was accompanied by between five and six million "surplus" deaths, a
> result registered previously in Russia in peacetime only under
> conditions of famine or during the years of Stalin's great terror.
>
> Besides a fixation with political goals on the part of the government,
> Russia's Stalinist inheritance is reflected in the lack of reliable
> moral standards on the part of the population.
Amazing. This piece is quite a tribute to ideology. Leave it to the
National Review to lay the blame at the feet of Stalin for millions of
deaths brought on by free-market capitalist reforms in the 1990s.
Josh
kalmenas
> March 14, 2003, 9:00 a.m.
>
> Stalin's Legacy
>
> The Russian challenge.
>
> By David Satter
>
>
>
> Fifty years after his death, Josef Stalin's influence is still felt in
> the country he brutalized.
>
> In a recent poll conducted by the Russian Center for Public Opinion,
> 53 percent of the respondents said that they considered Stalin to be a
> great historical figure and, in a separate poll, 36 percent of the
> respondents said that they believed that he was more good than bad.
>
>
> Russia has now had 50 years to recover from Stalinism but the
> consequences of the massive Stalinist effort to create reality by
> force set the stage for a downward spiral that threatens Russia's
> future.
One more insightful reflection re. Russias past and present. There
is no shortage of these. Brzezinsky and Pipes among others have writen
basing their insights on a broad knowledge of history, the Marquise
deTockvile had the country down pat already in the 1830-ties. Russians
themselves e.g. Chernyshevsky back when and V. Jerofejev plus dozens of
others presently try and on ocasion suceed to present a realistic picture.
But reading them one is griped by a deep sadness and an even
deeper incomprehension. What the hell is the matter with that society?
Now Satter suggests Stalin had much to do with it, though he has been
dead for 50 years, deTockvile writing 80 years before Stalin was born
thought it was Nicolas the 2-nd. It goes agaisnt my grain to even alow
such thougths, but could it be genetics or the water of the Volga?
Personaly I became convinced that something was seriously,
seriously askew in the history of that society while visiting a place
that is suposed to be the very epitome of Russian culture and the
Russian state. The Ermitage in St. Petersburg. Walking through
the gilded halls (how many? I lost count. Many hundreds in any case)
I suddenly felt that I understood Lenin. Well, maybe not Lenin,
but the hate that drove him and so many milions of others to smash
this epitome of pretence, opression and guilded kitch to smithereens.
That they indeed did, and Stalin was just one of the minor actors
in that effort. The fact that he was the one who then managed to
make use of it and mold it so that it kowtowed to him more
then to Nicolas the 2-nd in his time, seems to be almost secondary.
It was not Stalin who created that society. Did Nicolas the 2-nd?
In deference to the good marquise I doubt it.
Must be the Volga waters... Kalmenas
Mikhail Medved
So why don't you leave your "deep thoughts" about Russia to yourself?
You have the whole Lithuania and its problems to deal with.
Let me tell you something: no-one in Russia is impressed by this piece
of propaganda and your opinions. Do what you have to do in your
country and leave us alone.
kirill
WakWak wrote:
>
> March 14, 2003, 9:00 a.m.
>
> Stalin's Legacy
>
> The Russian challenge.
>
> By David Satter
>
>
>
> Fifty years after his death, Josef Stalin's influence is still felt in
> the country he brutalized.
>
> In a recent poll conducted by the Russian Center for Public Opinion,
> 53 percent of the respondents said that they considered Stalin to be a
> great historical figure and, in a separate poll, 36 percent of the
> respondents said that they believed that he was more good than bad.
Specify the questions that were asked and the cite the specific opinion
polls conducted (by whom and during what dates).
> This belated affection for Stalin reflects a trend that is the
> opposite of the trend in Germany where, as the years passed, the
> attitude toward Nazism and Hitler became increasingly negative.
This is just your biased and unsubstantiated assertion. You also have
to take into account the fact that Hilter took Germany to war without
provocation squandering millions of lives and foisting the shame of the
Holocaust on the German people. On the other hand Stalin was in charge
of the forces that defeated Nazi Germany (over 80% of Nazi war resources
were expended on the eastern front). Hitler's war lead to the death of
27 million Soviet citizens, including over 16 million civilians. Stalin's
crimes of repression are harder to quantify; if one excludes the civil war
(when Stalin wasn't in charge) the number of repression deaths is less
than 10 million and most of those were due to the famines of the 1930s.
> The
> poll results, however, are not the most serious aspect of Stalin's
> legacy for Russia. The genocide that Stalin inflicted on his own
> nation shaped the psychology of the Soviet people and its lingering
> influence helps to define the character of Russia today.
>
> Russia has undergone huge changes since 1985, including the overthrow
> of the Communist dictatorship, but at a fundamental level, the
> Stalinist inheritance is reflected in three ways; by the absolute
> priority attributed to the interests of the state, the lack of
> individual moral standards on the part of the population and the low
> value attached to human life.
Another wild claim. "Moral standards on the part of the population" is
a racist slur. You can't attribute the criminal activity in the wake of
the break down of law and order during the 1990s (partly thanks to Yeltsin's
corrupt western-backed regime) to every citizen of Russia. This criminal
element makes up a tiny percentage of the population.
> In Russia, political goals are instinctively given priority over the
> welfare of individuals. When the reform process began, prices were
> freed without warning wiping out the life savings of virtually the
> entire population.
Bloody hypocrite and liar. It was your precious western governments,
economics experts (e.g. Jeffrey Sachs) and consultants that were working
full tilt for the "shock therapy" to be foisted on Russia. Gaidar freed
the prices based on popular western monetarist theories and he is regared
in high esteem in western economics circles today (he runs something called
IET today, http://www.iet.ru, this economics analysis group gets cited in
western assessments of Russia's economy today).
> Persons who had saved for years to buy a car or
> apartment or had put money aside for a wedding or funeral were left
> with nothing.
A jewel in the crown of western economists' policy advice to the Russian
government is being attributed here by Satter to the alleged moral
inadequacy of Russians. Unbelievable.
> At the same time, the reform process was carried out
> without the protection of law. Reformers who considered themselves
> "anti-Communist" and, of course, anti-Stalinist made no effort to
> protect the lives or moral condition of the population as they
> introduced radical economic reforms at a breakneck pace and the
> resulting social transformation led directly to Russia's
> criminalization and a death rate
Chubais, Gaidar, Yeltsin, Koh, and other "reformers" were the darling
of the west as they implemented western monetarist quackery. So spare
us the phoney concern. Note how this Satter clown doesn't point bother
to make the link between the failure of shock therapy to a particular
government and its policies but prefers to blaim it all on the Russian
people. So, dipshit, how do you explain the legal reform under the
Putin administration...
> so high that, at first, Western
> demographers did not believe the figures. In all, the reform process
> was accompanied by between five and six million "surplus" deaths, a
> result registered previously in Russia in peacetime only under
> conditions of famine or during the years of Stalin's great terror.
Once again, blaim it on the Russians. FUCK OF RACIST WESTERN CUNT.
> Besides a fixation with political goals on the part of the government,
Given the recent history this the same as the fixation of western governments
on assuring only a specific type of reform (political goal) occurs in Russia.
The IMF was there guiding and cajoling all the way, until Putin told them to
take a hike.
> Russia's Stalinist inheritance is reflected in the lack of reliable
> moral standards on the part of the population.
>
> At the present time, virtually every Russian business pays protection
> money to a criminal organization.
Complete and utter bullshit. Western economists complain that Russian
companies are too large and that the percentage of small and medium sized
businesses is under 20% of the total. Large companies obviously do not
pay protection money because they can afford their own security. Perhaps
Satter can point to a source for his allegation.
> The gangs take a cut of each
> business's receipts in return for "guarding" them and the practice is
> so well established that both gangsters and ordinary citizens treat
> the demand for tribute as a legitimate obligation.
Gee, did you read some gangster novels and used your hyperactive, hate-filled
imagination to contrive a scenario for Russia. The peak crime of this sort
occurred under Yeltsin during the mid 1990s. Satter's a day late and a dollar short.
> At the same time, Russians have grown relatively indifferent to the
> criminal ties of government officials. In general, if a person is an
> official, it is assumed that he is corrupt and it is considered
> praiseworthy if, in addition, to lining his own pockets, he does
> something for the population.
So, more hot air and still no figures.
>
> Russians are also ready to vote for persons who have criminal pasts or
> known criminal connections. The rationale is that such persons are
> really no worse than those who pretend to be respectable and because
> they are already rich will have slightly less reason to steal.
So come on and tell us which elected politicians in Russia fit this bill.
I dare you.
> Finally, the Stalinist inheritance in Russia is reflected in the
> country's lack of respect for human life. The state no longer
> deliberately murders millions of people but the conviction bequeathed
> by the Stalin era that individuals are expendable permeates everyday
> life.
>
> Russians attach little value to their own lives or to the lives of
> anyone else. According to official statistics, "unnatural deaths," for
> the most part the result of murder, traffic accidents, and vodka
> account for the deaths of nearly a quarter of a million persons in
> Russia a year.
So traffic fatalities and murders in the USA are somehow different?
Satter is pathetic.
> Russians who find themselves in dangerous situations
> can rarely count on timely help. Ambulances are chronically late and
> hospitals undersupplied and understaffed.
Wow. Now the lack of funding for the health care system is reflection
on Russian values. Are we to infer that the increased waiting times
for addmission to emergency wards in Toronto, Canada, is a reflection
of Canadians' lack of respect for human life?
> The police, who are
> assiduous when it comes to collecting bribes, don't rush when it is a
> matter of providing aid.
Western-backed and beloved Yeltsin is the one who left Russia with this sort of legacy.
> Perhaps the most graphic recent examples of the indifference to human
> life in Russia were provided by the episode involving the submarine,
> "Kursk" and the recent Moscow hostage crisis. In the case of the
> Kursk, the Russian government, fearing exposure of state secrets and
> its own incompetence, refused foreign help in rescuing the trapped
> submariners, at least 23 of whom survived the explosion which sunk the
> ship.
And died in less than a day. For all the chatter about western help being relevant:
1) It would take over two days to get western equipment on site even if the call
was made the moment the Kursk sank.
2) It was Russian engineers who built devices to open the jammed access hatch.
3) Russian mini-subs tried continuously to dock to the Kursk and could not because
the hull was deformed and the hatches jammed. Russian personnel spent all this
time trying to solve this engineering problem and did just that in time for the
arrival of western help.
4) Western "help" obviously carries a heavy political price.
> In the case of the hostage crisis, the Russian authorities
> flooded a closed building with lethal gas killing 136 hostages (70
> more are still missing) rather than negotiate steps toward ending the
> war in Chechnya.
Freaking liar. German doctors identified this as an anasthetic gas.
The problem at the theater was that the hostages were not revived fast
enough. Interesting how the fact that anything under a 30% hostage
death rate is considered a successful operation in the west (including
Israel) but the 16% of hostages that died in Moscow proves Russians'
lack of respect for human life. The terrorists assembled over 2 tons
of TNT equivalent high explosive in the shabby 1950s era building that
would have collapsed completely had they detonated it. Maybe Satter
would have preferred that option then the Russian government would be
accused of not doing anything to save 84% or 100% of the hostages.
>
> Russia has now had 50 years to recover from Stalinism
Bzzt. Wrong. It has had from 1991 to build a completely different
economic and political system.
> but the
> consequences of the massive Stalinist effort to create reality by
> force set the stage for a downward spiral that threatens Russia's
> future.
Buy a clue, dimwit. Russia's GDP is growing and the birth rate is starting
to increase.
>
> The primacy of politics, lack of moral orientation, and disrespect for
> human life in Russia all worked to redefine what it means to be a
> human being, reducing the average person to a cog in the realization
> of a "great idea."
You haven't proven your thesis bozo. As an immigrant to the west
I found it amazing how conformist people are. Among this conformism
is the reflexive belief in all that the media spews. The current
threat of war on Iraq shows the media basically acting as a platform
for government leaders and their spokesmen. As if repeating the
inane phrase "axis of evil" for the billionth time constitutes reporting.
> Such an outcome, however, can only destroy the essence of human
> dignity that implies the capacity for moral choice.
A day late and a buck short.
> As Stalin's popularity grows, there is a possibility that he will join
> the pantheon of Russian national heroes that includes Peter the Great
> and, to a degree, Ivan the Terrible. If this happens, the evil that
> Stalin exemplified will be treated as a legitimate part of the Russian
> national tradition.
Given that the rest of your article is pure wishful thinking so is this
gem of non sequitur speculation.
> Such an outcome illustrates the vital stake of the civilized world in
> preventing new Stalins. Stalinism envisages unlimited violence in the
> pursuit of a supposedly "higher" goal.
I guess you love George W. Bush and his limited violence in the
pursuit of a supposedly "higher" goal.
> For this reason, it is a
> temptation to new waves of fanatics who are unwilling to tolerate any
> limitation on their drive for power. Their drive for power, however,
> can wound a civilization fundamentally. So those aspiring to use
> Stalinist methods need to be stopped before they can begin.
Mr. tangent has really gone off now. Exhibit A would be Nazi Germany in
the case of how allegedly civilized western nations can flip into madness.
Hitler had millions upon millions of followers in the west including the
USA and the UK. These weren't the lunatic fringe, they were mainstream
people. The USA is the birthplace at least one of the evil ideas that Hitler
incorportated into his platform: eugenics.
>
> --— David Satter is a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute, research
> fellow at the Hoover Institution, and visiting scholar at the Johns
> Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS).
> Satter's latest book, Darkness at Dawn: The Rise of the Russian
> Criminal State will be out next month from the Yale University Press.
>
> http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-satter031403.asp
Gee, what a surprise.
Marshal Max
>
> Let me tell you something: no-one in Russia is impressed by this piece
> of propaganda and your opinions. Do what you have to do in your
> country and leave us alone.
Wasn't Stalin the one who invaded Lithuania, killed or sent Lithuanians
into Russian Gulags and also brough hundreds of thousands of Russians to
live permanently in Lithuania? I believe that most of Lithuanian
problems today are created by Stalin and Russian imperialists. You
should help this poor soul instead of kicking him out of here.
Mikhail Medved
> > You have the whole Lithuania and its problems to deal with.
> >
> > Let me tell you something: no-one in Russia is impressed by this piece
> > of propaganda and your opinions. Do what you have to do in your
> > country and leave us alone.
>
> Wasn't Stalin the one who invaded Lithuania, killed or sent Lithuanians
> into Russian Gulags and also brough hundreds of thousands of Russians to
> live permanently in Lithuania? I believe that most of Lithuanian
> problems today are created by Stalin and Russian imperialists.
You can believe anything you want - none of my business or interest,
for that matter.
Just leave Russian newsgroups out of your "sphere of interest" - go to
heck, that is.
Yu_Jing
> Marshal Max <madm...@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<3E74C082...@pacbell.net>...
> > > You have the whole Lithuania and its problems to deal with.
> > >
> > > Let me tell you something: no-one in Russia is impressed by this piece
> > > of propaganda and your opinions. Do what you have to do in your
> > > country and leave us alone.
> >
> for that matter.
>
> Just leave Russian newsgroups out of your "sphere of interest" - go to
> heck, that is.
>
Misha, what do you want to say? Russian problems and Russian history
cannot be discussed by anybody who are not Russians by origin? Is it
nazism?
And why Lithuania? .it domain name refers to Italy, I think.
il postino
"Yu_Jing" <ebour...@billing.ru> wrote in message
news:9276a448.03031...@posting.google.com...
Misha a Nazi? No. Stalinist...probably. Sovok...yes. He is typical Russian
who longs for the return of the Soviet Union. His thinking is stuck in the
Russian mud, unable to move forward, only capable of spinning his tires and
splattering mud on anyone who comes near.
Mikhail Medved
Misha yourself, man. Nazism is something my parents spilled blood
fighting against. I am not going to spend my time and effort arguing
with propagandists.
> And why Lithuania? .it domain name refers to Italy, I think.
You can figure it out yourself. Just try. You really can.
kalmenas
"Deep thoughts" seem to bother you. Well, sory, I am not much into
the insulting mode. However, let me point out a chance that you missed
to insult me. I made a serious mistake in the above post. The French
traveler who wrote an insightfull book about the Russia of Nicolas 2-nd
was the marquise deCustine, not deTockvile. Sorry. Actually it is not
hard to confuse the two, they were contemporeries and deTockvile also
wrote about Russia, though, as far as I know he never visited it.
deCustine certainly did and it led to his conversion from an ardent
monarchist to a republican. The example of absolutist Russia did
this. So, as the saying goes, something useful can be found from
all societies. If all elsce fails, they can always serve as a bad
example. This seems to be the fate of Russia.
Kalmenas
kirill
What non sequitur tripe. The issue, moron, is the obvious anti-Russian
propaganda spewed by Satter. He is blaiming shock therapy economics
on defficiencies in the Russian people when anybody with half a clue
knows that Yeltsin, Gaidar, Chubais and other "reformers" were following
western advice.
Mikhail Medved
I am not in an insulting mode, either. And I have enough friends and
acquaintances in Lithuania to just disregard your opinion.
You don't like Russia - stay away. I'll enjoy my visit to St.
Petersburg landmarks without having to stand in the line with people
like you.
Your marquis de Custine was a russophobe not even having a notion of
common decency. He visited the country, used its welcome to its limit
and then wrote a bunch of lies. How very civilized. Good example for
people like you.
J. Anderson
"Mikhail Medved" <mikhai...@mail.ru> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:78954e62.03031...@posting.google.com...
> Your marquis de Custine was a russophobe not even having a notion of
> common decency. He visited the country, used its welcome to its limit
> and then wrote a bunch of lies. How very civilized.
This raises the question: should an invited guest always shut up about
anything negative he might encounter. If I remember correctly, there were
several cases of western intellectuals - invited by the USSR to admire the
blessings of the Soviet society - who turned violently anti-Communist after
their visit.
Seeing is disbelieving.
John
Bolshoy Murza
> > March 14, 2003, 9:00 a.m.
> >
> > Stalin's Legacy
> >
> > The Russian challenge.
> >
> > By David Satter
> >
> >
> >
> > Fifty years after his death, Josef Stalin's influence is still felt in
> > the country he brutalized.
> >
> > In a recent poll conducted by the Russian Center for Public Opinion,
> > 53 percent of the respondents said that they considered Stalin to be a
> > great historical figure and, in a separate poll, 36 percent of the
> > respondents said that they believed that he was more good than bad.
> >
> (....)
> >
> > Russia has now had 50 years to recover from Stalinism but the
> > consequences of the massive Stalinist effort to create reality by
> > force set the stage for a downward spiral that threatens Russia's
> > future.
>
> One more insightful reflection re. Russias past and present. There
> is no shortage of these. Brzezinsky and Pipes among others have writen
> basing their insights on a broad knowledge of history, the Marquise
> deTockvile had the country down pat already in the 1830-ties. Russians
> themselves e.g. Chernyshevsky back when and V. Jerofejev plus dozens of
> others presently try and on ocasion suceed to present a realistic picture.
>
> But reading them one is griped by a deep sadness and an even
> deeper incomprehension. What the hell is the matter with that society?
...A society that also created the best literature in the world, a
society that has produced some of the best ballet and opera in the
world, a society that despite Stalin managed through unimaginable
sacrifice to destroy Nazism, a society that sent the frist person into
space, a society that for centuries has resisted the
"bourgois-fication" of the human soul, etc.
> Now Satter suggests Stalin had much to do with it, though he has been
> dead for 50 years, deTockvile writing 80 years before Stalin was born
> thought it was Nicolas the 2-nd. It goes agaisnt my grain to even alow
> such thougths, but could it be genetics or the water of the Volga?
>
> Personaly I became convinced that something was seriously,
> seriously askew in the history of that society while visiting a place
> that is suposed to be the very epitome of Russian culture and the
> Russian state. The Ermitage in St. Petersburg. Walking through
> the gilded halls (how many? I lost count. Many hundreds in any case)
> I suddenly felt that I understood Lenin. Well, maybe not Lenin,
> but the hate that drove him and so many milions of others to smash
> this epitome of pretence, opression and guilded kitch to smithereens.
I guess you also have problems with Versailles, the old Gothic
cathedrals of Europe built when most of the population were serfs,
etc. etc. Better that everybody be "middle class" and the world
consist of IKEA and Wal-Mart than to have a Hermitage, I suppose.
Thinking of your disgust at the hermitage I am reminded of the old
expression about throwing pearls to the swine. Nicholas II's problem
was that he was too Western, and as a result did not understand the
Russian people.
Bolshoy Murza
il postino
"Bolshoy Murza" <bolsho...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3757594a.03031...@posting.google.com...
Tchaikovsky...western educated. Rachmaninoff went to America. Shostakovich
and Prokofiev persecuted.
Gogol ran away to Italy. Pushkin exiled. Akmatova, Pasternak..persecuted.
The list goes on and on. P.S. No Russian operas are routinely performed on
western stages.
a society that despite Stalin managed through unimaginable
> sacrifice to destroy Nazism,
Unimaginable sacrifice was not neccesary. Stalin caused it.
a society that sent the frist person into
> space,
The guy who lied about his re-entry to falsely claim aeronautical records
was sent up by a guy who did time in a slave labor camp after committing no
crime.
a society that for centuries has resisted the
> "bourgois-fication" of the human soul, etc.
>
Now it enjoys bourgois-fication wholeheartedly.
il postino
"J. Anderson" <ar...@iname.com> wrote in message
news:b57jpv$pqv$03$1...@news.t-online.com...
There were many Russians who became anti-communist after visiting the
American exposition in Moscow.
>
Bolshoy Murza
> > > But reading them one is griped by a deep sadness and an even
> > > deeper incomprehension. What the hell is the matter with that society?
> >
> > ...A society that also created the best literature in the world, a
> > society that has produced some of the best ballet and opera in the
> > world,
>
> Tchaikovsky...western educated. Rachmaninoff went to America. Shostakovich
> and Prokofiev persecuted.
...So? How come America never produced a composer equal to
Tchaikovsky?
> Gogol ran away to Italy.
Gogol was Ukrainian, not Russian. Another idiocy coming from you.
> Pushkin exiled. Akmatova, Pasternak..persecuted.
Yes. But how does their persecution detract from the fact that Russia
created perhaps the greatest literature in the world?
> The list goes on and on. P.S. No Russian operas are routinely performed on
> western stages.
Mazepa was performed in NY a little while ago.
> a society that despite Stalin managed through unimaginable
> > sacrifice to destroy Nazism,
>
> Unimaginable sacrifice was not neccesary. Stalin caused it.
Hence, my word "despite" (above). 1 million people died of hunger
etc. in Leningrad rather than surrender the city. I doubt that any
Western people would have been capable of the same.
> a society that sent the frist person into
> > space,
>
> The guy who lied about his re-entry to falsely claim aeronautical records
> was sent up by a guy who did time in a slave labor camp after committing no
> crime.
>
> a society that for centuries has resisted the
> > "bourgois-fication" of the human soul, etc.
> >
>
> Now it enjoys bourgois-fication wholeheartedly.
I wouldn't be so suuure...
Bolshoy Murza
Stuart Wilkes
> news:3757594a.03031...@posting.google.com...
<snip>
> > a society that despite Stalin managed through unimaginable
> > sacrifice to destroy Nazism,
>
> Unimaginable sacrifice was not neccesary.
Sure. If only Chamberlain or the Polish government had seen sense.
Stuart Wilkes
Mikhail Medved
Any decent person should abstain from lying - even if those lies are
commonplace in his society. Read your de Custine and tell me what in
what he wrote is true.
I understand that lies are so deeply engrained in your society that
you don't even notice it. Still if you abandon your
self-congratulatory stance chances are you'll start seeing it.
il postino
> "il postino" <som...@devnull.com> wrote in message
news:<QjKda.128179$b8.20...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
>
> > > > But reading them one is griped by a deep sadness and an
even
> > > > deeper incomprehension. What the hell is the matter with that
society?
> > >
> > > ...A society that also created the best literature in the world, a
> > > society that has produced some of the best ballet and opera in the
> > > world,
> >
> > Tchaikovsky...western educated. Rachmaninoff went to America.
Shostakovich
> > and Prokofiev persecuted.
>
> ...So? How come America never produced a composer equal to
> Tchaikovsky?
>
It did. Copland. Lots of Russians enjoy listening to American jazz music
BTW.
> > Gogol ran away to Italy.
>
> Gogol was Ukrainian, not Russian. Another idiocy coming from you.
>
One example, there are zillions more.
> > Pushkin exiled. Akmatova, Pasternak..persecuted.
>
> Yes. But how does their persecution detract from the fact that Russia
> created perhaps the greatest literature in the world?
>
Greatest literature to a Russian. Very few Americans read Russian lit
outside of Slavic Studies students at universities.
> > The list goes on and on. P.S. No Russian operas are routinely performed
on
> > western stages.
>
> Mazepa was performed in NY a little while ago.
>
Dusted off, performed and put back into the drawer. For every perf of a
Russian opera, Mozart, Verdi, etc gets performed 100 times.
> > a society that despite Stalin managed through unimaginable
> > > sacrifice to destroy Nazism,
> >
> > Unimaginable sacrifice was not neccesary. Stalin caused it.
>
> Hence, my word "despite" (above). 1 million people died of hunger
> etc. in Leningrad rather than surrender the city. I doubt that any
> Western people would have been capable of the same.
>
As if they had a choice. They survived by cannibalism. Did you know that
Shostakovich wrote his "Leningrad" symphony without himself having any
inspiration for Leningrad at the time he wrote it? It was a matter of
convenience to call it that.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
>
> "J. Anderson" <ar...@iname.com> wrote in message news:<b57jpv$pqv$03$1...@news.t-online.com>...
> > "Mikhail Medved" <mikhai...@mail.ru> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> > news:78954e62.03031...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > > Your marquis de Custine was a russophobe not even having a notion of
> > > common decency. He visited the country, used its welcome to its limit
> > > and then wrote a bunch of lies. How very civilized.
> >
> > This raises the question: should an invited guest always shut up about
> > anything negative he might encounter. If I remember correctly, there were
> > several cases of western intellectuals - invited by the USSR to admire the
> > blessings of the Soviet society - who turned violently anti-Communist after
> > their visit.
> >
> > Seeing is disbelieving.
> >
> > John
>
> Any decent person should abstain from lying - even if those lies are
> commonplace in his society. Read your de Custine and tell me what in
> what he wrote is true.
Why everything! :) Would you care to enumerate specific lies, with some
supporting evidence Mr. Medved.
>
> I understand that lies are so deeply engrained in your society that
> you don't even notice it. Still if you abandon your
> self-congratulatory stance chances are you'll start seeing it.
You are quite correct. Many lies about Russia are now deeply engrained
in "The West" due to the falsehoods spread by the Russian (pro Russia
and pro Soviet ) persons in Academia. Correcting some of these
falsehoods
about Russia's history is an on going battle. Even lies such as who
perpetrated the massacres in the Katyn forests still persist,
not to speak of the mis-information about Khmelnytzkyj, Mazepa, the
treaty of Perejaslav, etc. etc.
The Russians are well known for their rewriting of history books
and encyclopedias to suit their current whims.
So again, enumerate for us specific lies written by de Custine and
other travelers in the Russian empire through the ages.
Perhaps you want to dwell on the truthful reports filed by Walter
Duranty about the artificial famine in Ukraine 1932-33.
--
Rostyk
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
>
> ...A society that also created the best literature in the world, a
> society that has produced some of the best ballet and opera in the
> world, a society that despite Stalin managed through unimaginable
> sacrifice to destroy Nazism, a society that sent the frist person into
> space, a society that for centuries has resisted the
> "bourgois-fication" of the human soul, etc.
>
is now busily engaged in trying to implement its own version
of the final solution on the Palestinians.
They have perhaps learned too well, or perhaps needed no teaching,
but just a chance to apply innate talents.
And so the world turns.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
>
> "il postino" <som...@devnull.com> wrote in message news:<QjKda.128179$b8.20...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
>
> > > > But reading them one is griped by a deep sadness and an even
> > > > deeper incomprehension. What the hell is the matter with that society?
> > >
> > > ...A society that also created the best literature in the world, a
> > > society that has produced some of the best ballet and opera in the
> > > world,
> >
> > Tchaikovsky...western educated. Rachmaninoff went to America. Shostakovich
> > and Prokofiev persecuted.
>
> ...So? How come America never produced a composer equal to
> Tchaikovsky?
>
> > Gogol ran away to Italy.
>
> Gogol was Ukrainian, not Russian. Another idiocy coming from you.
>
> > Pushkin exiled. Akmatova, Pasternak..persecuted.
Just for clarification, please, What are the self identified ethnicities
of each of the above mentioned luminaries?
>
> Yes. But how does their persecution detract from the fact that Russia
> created perhaps the greatest literature in the world?
Well Shakespere is studied even in Russia. However we here in the
'western
world' seldom hear of the luminaries of the non-european world (even if
one includes Russia as a part of the west for this)
Anyway, operationally, what makes something 'great'?
in addition to "Oh yeah we studied his plays in school, one per year
for each year in highschool/gymnasium ..." vs. "Never heard of him,
so he can't be great".
>
> > The list goes on and on. P.S. No Russian operas are routinely performed on
> > western stages.
>
> Mazepa was performed in NY a little while ago.
Russian?
il postino
"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urj...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3E78205D...@bellsouth.net...
Written by homosexual Tchaikovsky who was musically educated in the Europe.
It's a story about torture and execution...two classically Russian themes.
il postino
season. There are NO Russian operas scheduled to be performed.
http://www.metopera.org/season/
Cindy S.
And members of another society, historically anti-semitic, willing and eager
to collaborate with the Nazi in their "final solution" for the Jews are
apparently as virulently anti-semitic as ever, despite the fact that there
are currently barely any Jews living in that society anymore.
Best regards,
--Cindy S.
Bolshoy Murza
> Check out the NY Metropolitan operas schedule for the remainder of the
> season. There are NO Russian operas scheduled to be performed.
?????
Except the Kirov opera is performing there, among other things
Tchaikovsky's Onegin. Screwed up again, brooks : )
Bolshoy Murza
Bolshoy Murza
> > > Tchaikovsky...western educated. Rachmaninoff went to America.
> > > Shostakovich
> > > and Prokofiev persecuted.
> >
> > ...So? How come America never produced a composer equal to
> > Tchaikovsky?
> >
>
> It did. Copland.
LOL. You compare Copeland to Tchaikovsky? Well, Tchaikovsky wasn't
"worthy" of having his music used for beef commercials, the most
important category perhaps for the American consumer.
> Lots of Russians enjoy listening to American jazz music BTW.
Yes, as they do the Backstreet boys. We are talking about culture
here, not its progressive decline (or death). Americans are good at
the latter, no doubt about it.
> > > Gogol ran away to Italy.
> >
> > Gogol was Ukrainian, not Russian. Another idiocy coming from you.
> >
>
> One example, there are zillions more.
Of your idiocies? Yes, you are correct.
> > > Pushkin exiled. Akmatova, Pasternak..persecuted.
> >
> > Yes. But how does their persecution detract from the fact that Russia
> > created perhaps the greatest literature in the world?
> >
> Greatest literature to a Russian. Very few Americans read Russian lit
> outside of Slavic Studies students at universities.
What does that mean? Americans as a rule don't read (USA Today or
Danielle Steele don't count). Freud considered Dostoyevsky the
greatest writer, so did Camus, so did even Nietzsche. Spengler
compared his work to the Gospels. A friend of mine getting a
doctorate in divinities also mentions the ubiquity of Russian authors
at his institution. Even Laura Bush, simpleton that she is, knows
greatness when she sees it: in an interview she claimed that
Dostoyevsky's "inquisotor" was the most important thing she had ever
read, although Westerners in general seem to prefer Tolstoy as the
greatest novelist.
Sorry, Russia is to literature what Germany/Austria are to classical
music.
> > > The list goes on and on. P.S. No Russian operas are routinely performed
> on
> > > western stages.
> >
> > Mazepa was performed in NY a little while ago.
> >
>
> Dusted off, performed and put back into the drawer. For every perf of a
> Russian opera, Mozart, Verdi, etc gets performed 100 times.
Oh, I never claimed that Russian opera is equivalent to that of Italy
or Germany (though I would take Onegin over any simplistic,
over-sentimental Verdi), but it is still world-class. The idea of an
American or, even more so, a Lithuanian making a sweeping mockery of
Russian culture is, to the say the least...odd.
Bolshoy Murza
Alexander Sharon
"Bolshoy Murza"
>
> Gogol was Ukrainian, not Russian. Another idiocy coming from you.
Gogol called himself Malorus (Little Russian) and he wrote exclusively in
Russian.
He is consider to be one of the greatest Russian writers, but on the other
hand nerly every Russian writer consider to be great or greatest by the
Russians.
First Ukrainian writer was Ivan Kotlaryevski ("Eneida" and "Natalka
Poltavka") and few little guys known only to the very narrow group of
specialists: Piotr Hulak - Artemovski, Yevhen Hrebyonka and Hrehory Kvitka.
Taras Shevchenko was the founder of the modern Ukrainian literature. But
Gogol was a Russian writer.
> > Pushkin exiled. Akmatova, Pasternak..persecuted.
>
> Yes. But how does their persecution detract from the fact that Russia
> created perhaps the greatest literature in the world?
How one can judge more greatest or less greatest literatures?
--
Alexander
kalmenas
> alm...@aiva.lt (kalmenas) wrote in message news:<cecb0a80.03031...@posting.google.com>...
> > wakw...@hotmail.com (WakWak) wrote in message news:<45278a0c.03031...@posting.google.com>...
> > > March 14, 2003, 9:00 a.m.
> > >
> > > Stalin's Legacy
> > >
> > > Russia has now had 50 years to recover from Stalinism but the
> > > consequences of the massive Stalinist effort to create reality by
> > > force set the stage for a downward spiral that threatens Russia's
> > > future.
> >
> > One more insightful reflection re. Russias past and present. There
> > is no shortage of these. Brzezinsky and Pipes among others have writen
> > basing their insights on a broad knowledge of history, the Marquise
> > deTockvile had the country down pat already in the 1830-ties. Russians
> > themselves e.g. Chernyshevsky back when and V. Jerofejev plus dozens of
> > others presently try and on ocasion suceed to present a realistic picture.
> >
> > But reading them one is griped by a deep sadness and an even
> > deeper incomprehension. What the hell is the matter with that society?
>
> ...A society that also created the best literature in the world, a
> society that has produced some of the best ballet and opera in the
> world, a society that despite Stalin managed through unimaginable
> sacrifice to destroy Nazism, a society that sent the frist person into
> space, a society that for centuries has resisted the
> "bourgois-fication" of the human soul, etc.
I will not try to argue any of your points. If you believe what you
wrote, that's fine with me. I do however have a question. And I mean it
seriously. One of the aspects which has puzzled me re. Russian literature
is the persistent, repeated emphasis of the 'Russian soul'. It is suposed
to be deep, melancholy, unfathomable to anybody who is not Russian
etc.. etc...
But here you write that it is a society which has " resisted the
burgois-fiction of the human soul..."
Excuse me if I am confused. So what is the 'Russian soul' the Russian
writers keep writing about?
Kalmenas
pas de deux
literatures?» An interesting question.
Firstly, I think there's a difference between 'good' (technical excellence -
something one can comment on with some degree of objectivity) and
'greatness' (which is hard to measure, even subjectively, and perhaps the
only real test is the test of time and enduring popularity).
To explain my view on this, I use an analogy to visual art. One could get
some consensus on a number of examples of 'good' art (painting, sculpture)
which fulfils certain technical criteria well. One might also get a degree
of consensus on a number of examples of 'great' art – art which has been
widely acclaimed over time.
How much overlap would there be? I imagine not all the 'great' art or
'literature' would be technically outstanding. Then there would be examples
of art and literature that are masterpieces of the artist's or writer's
craft — but have not achieved 'greatness' over time.
The art and literature of smaller countries, whose languages are less widely
spoken and who are therefore handicapped in the Public Relations ratrace,
are definitely at a disadvantage in this regard.
Who knows how many "gems of purest ray serene, the dark unfathom'd caves of
ocean bear", and how many "flowers are born to blush unseen, and waste their
sweetness on the desert air"?
Gintautas Kaminskas
Montréal, Québec
******************
"Alexander Sharon" <a.sh...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:C63ea.256243$na.14...@news2.calgary.shaw.ca...
pas de deux
all.
"kalmenas" <alm...@aiva.lt> wrote in message
news:cecb0a80.03031...@posting.google.com...
a_...@poczta.onet.pl
pas de deux schrieb in Nachricht ...
:Alexander asks «How one can judge more greatest or less greatest
I jeszcze ch.. pisze po anielsku.
A. Rem
il postino
Nobody knows, not even Russians. Probably because it doesn't exist...urban
legend. ...or maybe you just need a couple liters of vodka to find it?
Bolshoy Murza
There would be no Jews left in Europe if not for the sacrifices of the
Russian and Ukrainian troops during World War II. Remember that
before you demonstrate your ingratitude, Cindy S.
Bolshoy Murza
Bolshoy Murza
> >
> > Gogol was Ukrainian, not Russian. Another idiocy coming from you.
>
> Gogol called himself Malorus (Little Russian) and he wrote exclusively in
> Russian.
I guess when Nabakov started writing in English he ceased being a
"Russian" writer?
> He is consider to be one of the greatest Russian writers, but on the other
> hand nerly every Russian writer consider to be great or greatest by the
> Russians.
> First Ukrainian writer was Ivan Kotlaryevski ("Eneida" and "Natalka
> Poltavka") and few little guys known only to the very narrow group of
> specialists: Piotr Hulak - Artemovski, Yevhen Hrebyonka and Hrehory Kvitka.
>
> Taras Shevchenko was the founder of the modern Ukrainian literature. But
> Gogol was a Russian writer.
Oh? About Gogol:
"Of cossack descent, was born in the region of Poltava. Gogol's father
was a Ukrainian-language playwright, and minor Ukrainian literary
figures visited the house (one of whom proclaimed in a way reminiscent
of Mozart's prediction of Beethoven's future genius, that the 5 year
old Mykola would one day have "world-wide" influence. I forgot the
guest's name, but know that he afterwards settled in Berlin and spent
much of his life lobbying the Prussians to invade Russia and liberate
Ukraine). Hohol planned to teach history in Kyiv, Taras Bulba being a
by-product of his historical interest. In a letter to his friend
Maksymovych (written in Ukrainian, or course) around the time that he
was planning to return to Ukraine, Hohol urged his friend to also
leave Russia (Hohol referred to it as katzapiyu) and to return to
Kyiv, whose history is "ours, not theirs" (radical stuff in the days
when officially Ukraine and Russia were one and the same). He hoped
to write a thorough history of Ukraine.
In Paris, Gogol wrote to his Polish friend, the poet Zaleski, in
Ukrainian (Zaleski was a Pole from Ukraine), calling him "a very close
countryman, closer by heart than by hand." Indeed, in Paris Gogol
mixed mostly with Polish emigres and endeared them with his
anti-Russian hostility. According to a letter written by Zaleski to a
Polish scholar:
" About 25 years ago the famous Russian (sic) writer Gogol visited
Paris. He was very friendly with Mickiewicz and me...we gathered
often in the evenings for literary and political discussion.
Naturally, we talked about the Russians (moskalach) who were loathsome
to us and to him. The question of their Finnish origin was frequently
debated. Gogol confirmed this view with all his Little Russian
fervor. He had with him a splendid collection of folk songs in
different Slavic tongues. He wrote an excellent paper on the Finnish
origin of Russians which he read to us. In it he showed on the basis
of detailed comparisons between Czech, Serbian and UKrainian songs
with Great Russian songs the glaring differences in the spirit,
customs and morals between the Great Russians and other Slavic
peoples. He chose a diffeent song to characterize a different human
feeling: on the one hand, our Slavic song, delightful and tender, and
along with it a morose, wild and almost cannibalistic Russian song,
just like a Finnish one. My dear countryman, you must imagine how
pleased Mickiewicz and I were with this article."
You can add to that letters written by contemporary Russians, who
considered Gogol a foreigner, even editorial comments (one Russian
critic was offended at Gogol's view of St. Petersburg, asking how dare
a foreigner come to Russia and insult the Russian people in such a
way).
Hohol/Gogol had an ambivalent, love/hate relationship to Russia. He
proclaimed himself a servant of the tsars at one point, and moved to
Italy, which reminded him of Ukraine, and contemplated converting to
Catholicism the next. He was a troubled genius, and to an extent his
troubles reflected that of Ukraine within the Russian empire.
So, yeah, Gogol was Ukrainian, although he played a huge role in
Russian not Ukrainian literature.
> > > Pushkin exiled. Akmatova, Pasternak..persecuted.
> >
> > Yes. But how does their persecution detract from the fact that Russia
> > created perhaps the greatest literature in the world?
>
> How one can judge more greatest or less greatest literatures?
Easily. You are not some kind of deconstructionist are you?
regards,
Bolshoy Murza
Alexander Sharon
"Bolshoy Murza"
> There would be no Jews left in Europe if not for the sacrifices of the
> Russian and Ukrainian troops during World War II. Remember that
> before you demonstrate your ingratitude, Cindy S.
>
> Bolshoy Murza
You are probably want to say that it was Allied (including Soviets) troops
that have liberated Jews from the Nazis.
Ukrainian soldiers in the military nationalist and fascist formation (UPA,
SS-Galicia), paramillitary militia, the concentration camps guard "services"
(eg.camp Trawniki), and other services (Ghetto Warsaw liquidation) have been
responsible for the death of milions Jews. Remember this before
demonstrating your lack of the historical knowledge, Bolshaya Murka.
--
Alexander
Cindy S.
> > And members of another society, historically anti-semitic, willing and
eager
> > to collaborate with the Nazi in their "final solution" for the Jews are
> > apparently as virulently anti-semitic as ever, despite the fact that
there
> > are currently barely any Jews living in that society anymore.
> > Best regards,
> > --Cindy S.
>
> There would be no Jews left in Europe if not for the sacrifices of the
> Russian and Ukrainian troops during World War II. Remember that
> before you demonstrate your ingratitude, Cindy S.
>
> Bolshoy Murza
Oh right. Russians and Ukranians sacrificed their lives for Jews. The
biggest anti-semites of all. Maybe I should demonstrate my gratitude to the
Russians and Ukranians who eagerly joined the Einsatzgruppen who took the
Jews of Radun (which included my aunts, uncles, and cousins) outside of town
and shot them. This my friend is historical fact.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
usertx
> "il postino" <som...@devnull.com> wrote in message
news:<35Rda.129962$b8.22...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
>
> > > > Tchaikovsky...western educated. Rachmaninoff went to America.
> > > > Shostakovich
> > > > and Prokofiev persecuted.
> > >
> > > ...So? How come America never produced a composer equal to
> > > Tchaikovsky?
> > >
> >
> > It did. Copland.
>
> LOL. You compare Copeland to Tchaikovsky? Well, Tchaikovsky wasn't
> "worthy" of having his music used for beef commercials, the most
> important category perhaps for the American consumer.
Come on Babai, Copland was ok. So was Gershwin. And, grmm.., yeear..., do
not know anybody else.
> > Lots of Russians enjoy listening to American jazz music BTW.
>
> Yes, as they do the Backstreet boys. We are talking about culture
> here, not its progressive decline (or death). Americans are good at
> the latter, no doubt about it.
Jazz is good. I lake to drop into "Sweet Molly and her preservation hall" in
Big Easy. And believe me or not there are always a few Americans there.
>
> > > > Gogol ran away to Italy.
> > >
> > > Gogol was Ukrainian, not Russian. Another idiocy coming from you.
> > >
> >
> > One example, there are zillions more.
>
> Of your idiocies? Yes, you are correct.
>
> > > > Pushkin exiled. Akmatova, Pasternak..persecuted.
> > >
> > > Yes. But how does their persecution detract from the fact that Russia
> > > created perhaps the greatest literature in the world?
> > >
> > Greatest literature to a Russian. Very few Americans read Russian lit
> > outside of Slavic Studies students at universities.
>
> What does that mean? Americans as a rule don't read (USA Today or
> Danielle Steele don't count). Freud considered Dostoyevsky the
> greatest writer, so did Camus, so did even Nietzsche. Spengler
> compared his work to the Gospels. A friend of mine getting a
> doctorate in divinities also mentions the ubiquity of Russian authors
> at his institution. Even Laura Bush, simpleton that she is, knows
> greatness when she sees it: in an interview she claimed that
> Dostoyevsky's "inquisotor" was the most important thing she had ever
> read, although Westerners in general seem to prefer Tolstoy as the
> greatest novelist.
>
> Sorry, Russia is to literature what Germany/Austria are to classical
> music.
Here you are not right at all. American literature is in pair with Russian
and unlike 99% of Americans you know it.
Alexander Sharon
"Bolshoy Murza" wrote
"Alexander Sharon" wrote
> > >
> > > Gogol was Ukrainian, not Russian. Another idiocy coming from you.
> >
> > Gogol called himself Malorus (Little Russian) and he wrote exclusively
in
> > Russian.
>
> I guess when Nabakov started writing in English he ceased being a
> "Russian" writer?
Joseph Conrad was born in Berdyczew, Eastern Ukraine as Pole Jozef
Korzeniowski
And what? He still the English writer.
Stop quoting Ukrainian nationalistic sources. Those guys are in the middle
of the process of reinventing history, very similar to Russians that have
been very busy inventing during the 19th century Russian historiography to
fit the size of their empire.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Yes some shameful atrocities occured, and also courageous resistance.
However: the ghettoization of Palestinians in their own land,
the creation of concentration camps of Palestinians, the slaughters at :
Sabra, Shatilla, Jenin, and other camps, expansion into new lebensraum,
denaial of right of return of refugees, and other general implementation
of the Zionist solution for the Palestinian people are also more recent
historical facts. Moreover being done by a people who make victimhood an
art form. And certainly not every Jew is guilty of supporting these
policies. There are some righteous Jews who try to oppose them.
Also Nazi concentration camps were not historically the first. The
British
had them in the Boer war. And before the British, ethnic massacres and
attempts at extermination can be traced back thousands of years.
The Zionist Nazi parallel just struck me as particularly cynical.
But otherwise it's business as usual. History moves right along.
--
Rostyk
Cindy S.
> "Cindy S." wrote:
>> > --------------
> > Oh right. Russians and Ukranians sacrificed their lives for Jews. The
> > biggest anti-semites of all. Maybe I should demonstrate my gratitude to
the
> > Russians and Ukranians who eagerly joined the Einsatzgruppen who took
the
> > Jews of Radun (which included my aunts, uncles, and cousins) outside of
town
> > and shot them. This my friend is historical fact.
> > Best regards,
> > ---Cindy S.
>
> Yes some shameful atrocities occured, and also courageous resistance.
> However: the ghettoization of Palestinians in their own land,
> the creation of concentration camps of Palestinians,
Oh, baloney. When you can show me that the Jews of Eastern Europe were
sending suicide bombers to target Russian and Ukranian children, then I will
agree that the situations are equivalent.
>the slaughters at :
> Sabra, Shatilla, Jenin, and other camps, expansion into new lebensraum,
> denaial of right of return of refugees, and other general implementation
> of the Zionist solution for the Palestinian people are also more recent
> historical facts. Moreover being done by a people who make victimhood an
> art form. And certainly not every Jew is guilty of supporting these
> policies. There are some righteous Jews who try to oppose them.
Blah blah blah.
>
> Also Nazi concentration camps were not historically the first. The
> British
> had them in the Boer war. And before the British, ethnic massacres and
> attempts at extermination can be traced back thousands of years.
And your point would be?
>
> The Zionist Nazi parallel just struck me as particularly cynical.
With all due respect, I don't think Russians and Ukrainians have any
business calling anyone a "Nazi." Show me the cattle cars. Show me the gas
chambers. Show me the forced labor, starvation, torture. Then, we can talk
about "Zionist Nazis."
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
captain !
"pas de deux" <pas_d...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:m_6ea.3120$sK6.6...@news20.bellglobal.com...
> The Russian soul is animalistic and brutal. Nothing special about it at
> all.
>
there is no such thing as a soul.
captain !
"Bolshoy Murza" <bolsho...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3757594a.03031...@posting.google.com...
news:<i02ea.74820$_7.5...@twister.nyroc.rr.com>...
> > ---------------
> > And members of another society, historically anti-semitic, willing and
eager
> > to collaborate with the Nazi in their "final solution" for the Jews are
> > apparently as virulently anti-semitic as ever, despite the fact that
there
> > are currently barely any Jews living in that society anymore.
> > Best regards,
> > --Cindy S.
>
> There would be no Jews left in Europe if not for the sacrifices of the
> Russian and Ukrainian troops during World War II. Remember that
> before you demonstrate your ingratitude, Cindy S.
>
> Bolshoy Murza
i think she might be the legendary "super jew" that brooks keeps talking
about.
il postino
"Bolshoy Murza" <bolsho...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3757594a.03031...@posting.google.com...
A consequential result. Saving Jews was not the intention of Russians or
Ukrainians, Saving themselves was.
Maybe there would be no French speaking Frenchmen left in Europe without the
US and Britain...only Nazi collaborators left.
But that is long erased from France's consciousness.
il postino
"captain !" <wh...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:F8eea.259843$na.15...@news2.calgary.shaw.ca...
Aw pooh-pooh captain. Now we are gonna havta launch an Islamic jihad in your
direction! I suggest you link up with Salman Rushdie for tips on wigs and
makeup. You'll need a disguise to stay alive.
il postino
Captain,
I thought you had joined the ranks of Osama and Saddam...we were wondering
if you are dead or alive. Apparently rumors of your demise are premature.
Susan Cohen is the super-Jew. She usually drags along her trusty cohort
Micky...sort of like Batman and Robin. I can never really tell who is more
obnoxious though.
Bolshoy Murza
> > I guess when Nabakov started writing in English he ceased being a
> > "Russian" writer?
> You mean NabOkov?
> Joseph Conrad was born in Berdyczew, Eastern Ukraine as Pole Jozef
> Korzeniowski
> And what? He still the English writer.
Did he use Polish themes in his writing (think Taras Bulba)? Did he
incorporate Polish words in his writing? Indeed, some Russian critics
even commented that his "Russian" was a pure trannslation from
Ukrainian.
Is the Polish poet Zaleski a "Ukrainian nationalistic source". How
about Gogol regarding his quote about Russia being katzapiya. Unless
you concede that Gogol is a "Ukrainian nationalistic source" : )
> Those guys are in the middle
> of the process of reinventing history, very similar to Russians that have
> been very busy inventing during the 19th century Russian historiography to
> fit the size of their empire.
Sorry, your argument is primitive but irrelevent. Dismissing the
evivdence above simply because, according to you, it is from a
"Ukrainian nationalistic" source is a cop-out. Although it's a good
way of not having to think.
Bolshoy Murza
Bolshoy Murza
> "Bolshoy Murza"
>
> > There would be no Jews left in Europe if not for the sacrifices of the
> > Russian and Ukrainian troops during World War II. Remember that
> > before you demonstrate your ingratitude, Cindy S.
> >
> > Bolshoy Murza
>
> You are probably want to say that it was Allied (including Soviets) troops
> that have liberated Jews from the Nazis.
Would the French (LOL), British, or Americans have made it to any of
the camps without massive Soviet sacrifices? Don't think so.
> Ukrainian soldiers in the military nationalist and fascist formation (UPA,
> SS-Galicia),
As to the above, about UPA:
Hundreds of Jewish families were saved by UPA, and were subsequently
able to immigrate to Israel. Among UPA's more famous Jewish personnel
were Haim Sigal, Dr. Margosh who headed UPA-West's medical services
and Dr. Abraham Kum who directed an underground hospital in the
Carpathians. The latter person died while defending the hospital
against an NKVD onslaught in February 1946 and received posthumously
UPA's highest award for valor, the Golden Cross (see Leo Heiman's "We
fought for Ukraine - the story of Jews within the UPA").
A Soviet propaganda book against UPA published in 1983, "The Anatomy
of Treason", even claimed that "during the Great PAtriotic War of
1941-1945, many Zionists were members of the UPA". And an OUN
poetess, Olena Teliha, was murdered at Babyn Yar alongside the Jews
there.
Waffen-SS Galizien was never implicated in any anti-Jewish crimes, in
fact all investigations have cleared them of any wrongdoing. I
suggest you do some reading before you accuse people of being
responsible for the murder of "millions" of Jews.
Thanks for showing that you know as little about W.W. II history as
you do about literature : )
> paramillitary militia, the concentration camps guard "services"
> (eg.camp Trawniki), and other services (Ghetto Warsaw liquidation) have been
> responsible for the death of milions Jews.
You mean POWS forced to do dirty work for Nazis? Were the Kapo any
different? There were sadists who enjoyed their work in both groups.
I have not yet seen the Polanski movie the Pianist but I've heard that
it shows a lot of Jews involved in the implementation of the Final
Solution. But I guess since they are the "Chosen People" they can not
be guilty, only Ukrainians or Russians can be.
> Remember this before demonstrating your lack of the historical knowledge,
> Bolshaya Murka.
You seems you have demonstrated this far more than I have, Mr. Sharon.
Bolshoy Murza
Bolshoy Murza
> "Bolshoy Murza" <bolsho...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3757594a.03031...@posting.google.com...
> > > And members of another society, historically anti-semitic, willing and
> eager
> > > to collaborate with the Nazi in their "final solution" for the Jews are
> > > apparently as virulently anti-semitic as ever, despite the fact that
> there
> > > are currently barely any Jews living in that society anymore.
> > > Best regards,
> > > --Cindy S.
> >
> > There would be no Jews left in Europe if not for the sacrifices of the
> > Russian and Ukrainian troops during World War II. Remember that
> > before you demonstrate your ingratitude, Cindy S.
> >
> > Bolshoy Murza
> --------------
> Oh right. Russians and Ukranians sacrificed their lives for Jews. The
> biggest anti-semites of all.
One of my wife's Jewish friends from Moscow immigrated to Israel. she
says she never knew what antisemitism really was until she encountered
the Jews there, and the way they treat Russian immigrants. It's no
coincidence that the first time the Israeli government backed down
after a Palestinian terror attack was when it occurred on a disco
where the victims were Russian Jews.
The friend is back in Moscow. Safe once again.
> Maybe I should demonstrate my gratitude to the
> Russians and Ukranians who eagerly joined the Einsatzgruppen who took the
> Jews of Radun (which included my aunts, uncles, and cousins) outside of town
> and shot them. This my friend is historical fact.
Maybe then you should also hate not only Ukrainians and Russians but
your fellow Jews who also worked in police units during the
occupation. Actually my family also has a story about Jews. My
grandfather's family saved their village's Jewish family during one of
Denikin's pogroms during the Russian civil war. In the 1930's, the
favor was repaid when my grandfather escaped persecution by moving to
Kharkov where he stayed in the Jewish neighborhood with relatives of
those his family saved. During the famine, when Ukrainian peasants
were literally starving, mothers with small children would be dying in
the streets, more than one old Jew would, for example, feed bread to
birds in front of the dying children. Ukrainians or Russians would be
ashamed to do this: they would eat their rations at home, quietly.
I wonder how many of those child survivors would later participate in
the atrocities of the 1940's? And do not forget the dramatic
over-representation of Jews in the NKVD and Cheka. This is a fact,
too.
Not that guilt should be collective, although obviously *you* think in
these terms, Cindy S.
Bolshoy Murza
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
Cindy S.
> > Oh right. Russians and Ukranians sacrificed their lives for Jews. The
> > biggest anti-semites of all.
>
> One of my wife's Jewish friends from Moscow immigrated to Israel. she
> says she never knew what antisemitism really was until she encountered
> the Jews there, and the way they treat Russian immigrants.
When the Israeli Einsatzgruppen are driving around Israeli, mowing down
towns full of Russian immigrants and dumping their bodies in mass graves, I
will agree you have a case.
>It's no
> coincidence that the first time the Israeli government backed down
> after a Palestinian terror attack was when it occurred on a disco
> where the victims were Russian Jews.
Talk about grasping at straws.
>
> The friend is back in Moscow. Safe once again.
Good. I hope she enjoys herself there.
>
> > Maybe I should demonstrate my gratitude to the
> > Russians and Ukranians who eagerly joined the Einsatzgruppen who took
the
> > Jews of Radun (which included my aunts, uncles, and cousins) outside of
town
> > and shot them. This my friend is historical fact.
>
> Maybe then you should also hate not only Ukrainians and Russians but
> your fellow Jews who also worked in police units during the
> occupation.
Who were also terrified for their lives. Many of them believed that they
would somehow be able to save some Jews this way. In the end, they were
murdered just like all the rest.
>Actually my family also has a story about Jews. My
> grandfather's family saved their village's Jewish family during one of
> Denikin's pogroms during the Russian civil war. In the 1930's, the
> favor was repaid when my grandfather escaped persecution by moving to
> Kharkov where he stayed in the Jewish neighborhood with relatives of
> those his family saved.
Very nice story, assuming it's true.
>During the famine, when Ukrainian peasants
> were literally starving, mothers with small children would be dying in
> the streets, more than one old Jew would, for example, feed bread to
> birds in front of the dying children. Ukrainians or Russians would be
> ashamed to do this: they would eat their rations at home, quietly.
>
> I wonder how many of those child survivors would later participate in
> the atrocities of the 1940's?
Of course. The usual anti-semitic claim that the Jews themselves are
responsible for anti-semitism. Anti-semitism wasn't born in 1940 my friend.
There was plenty of it to go around long before then. My great grandparents
and grandparents immigrated to the US at the turn of the century. The Jews
were ghettoized in Russian by the tzars, long before Hitler. There were
pogroms long before WWII. My 18-year-old grandmother would have to hide in
the barn to avoid being raped by the Russian soldiers who held military
exercises near their town in the spring. The Jews would have to stand
outside their doors with axes to protect their families from the drunken
Russians. I don't believe for one second that elderly Jews were feeding
bread to birds. The Jews themselves were also starving. They would have
eaten the bread themselves.
>And do not forget the dramatic
> over-representation of Jews in the NKVD and Cheka. This is a fact,
> too.
>
> Not that guilt should be collective, although obviously *you* think in
> these terms, Cindy S.
>
And I think you need to face the reality that Eastern Europe is, was, and
always has been anti-semitic. I find it laughable that you are so desperate
to vindicate the Eastern European complicity with the Holocaust that you
would try to claim that Sharon's failure to react strongly enough to a
bombed disco in Israel is somehow the same thing.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Bolshoy Murza
> "Bolshoy Murza" <bolsho...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3757594a.03031...@posting.google.com...
> > "il postino" <som...@devnull.com> wrote in message
> news:<35Rda.129962$b8.22...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
> >
> > > > > Tchaikovsky...western educated. Rachmaninoff went to America.
> > > > > Shostakovich
> > > > > and Prokofiev persecuted.
> > > >
> > > > ...So? How come America never produced a composer equal to
> > > > Tchaikovsky?
> > > >
> > >
> > > It did. Copland.
> >
> > LOL. You compare Copeland to Tchaikovsky? Well, Tchaikovsky wasn't
> > "worthy" of having his music used for beef commercials, the most
> > important category perhaps for the American consumer.
>
> Come on Babai, Copland was ok. So was Gershwin. And, grmm.., yeear..., do
> not know anybody else.
Exactly. Merely ok is not in the same league as Tchaikovsky.
> > > Lots of Russians enjoy listening to American jazz music BTW.
> >
> > Yes, as they do the Backstreet boys. We are talking about culture
> > here, not its progressive decline (or death). Americans are good at
> > the latter, no doubt about it.
>
> Jazz is good. I lake to drop into "Sweet Molly and her preservation hall" in
> Big Easy. And believe me or not there are always a few Americans there.
One can always enjoy the product of a culture's decline (a lifetime
ago I took full advantage of Frankfurt's delightful Omen club) but
this does not imply an equivalence between low and high culture.
Although degenerating America seems to disagree: there are now
university courses taught about the meaning of Madonna videos or Oprah
Winfrey (who cares about Shakespeare).
> > > > > Gogol ran away to Italy.
> > > >
> > > > Gogol was Ukrainian, not Russian. Another idiocy coming from you.
> > > >
> > >
> > > One example, there are zillions more.
> >
> > Of your idiocies? Yes, you are correct.
> >
> > > > > Pushkin exiled. Akmatova, Pasternak..persecuted.
> > > >
> > > > Yes. But how does their persecution detract from the fact that Russia
> > > > created perhaps the greatest literature in the world?
> > > >
> > > Greatest literature to a Russian. Very few Americans read Russian lit
> > > outside of Slavic Studies students at universities.
> >
> > What does that mean? Americans as a rule don't read (USA Today or
> > Danielle Steele don't count). Freud considered Dostoyevsky the
> > greatest writer, so did Camus, so did even Nietzsche. Spengler
> > compared his work to the Gospels. A friend of mine getting a
> > doctorate in divinities also mentions the ubiquity of Russian authors
> > at his institution. Even Laura Bush, simpleton that she is, knows
> > greatness when she sees it: in an interview she claimed that
> > Dostoyevsky's "inquisotor" was the most important thing she had ever
> > read, although Westerners in general seem to prefer Tolstoy as the
> > greatest novelist.
> >
> > Sorry, Russia is to literature what Germany/Austria are to classical
> > music.
>
> Here you are not right at all. American literature is in pair with Russian
> and unlike 99% of Americans you know it.
??? America has some good authors (Faulkner, Salinger) but they are
few and far between. A lot of fashionable nonsense such as Burroughs
and that "beat" crap, or popular trash like Dean Koontz. And nobody
of Dostoyevsky's stature. I think Argentine literature compares
favorably to American. Even Pelevin, at least his earlier stuff, is
far far better than any American pop literature, is more than a mere
"made-for-TV-movie" in print. But to a certain extent it's a matter
of taste.
respectfully,
Bolshoy Murza
Alexander Sharon
"Bolshoy Murza" wrote
> ??? America has some good authors (Faulkner, Salinger) but they are
> few and far between. A lot of fashionable nonsense such as Burroughs
> and that "beat" crap, or popular trash like Dean Koontz. And nobody
> of Dostoyevsky's stature. I think Argentine literature compares
> favorably to American. Even Pelevin, at least his earlier stuff, is
> far far better than any American pop literature, is more than a mere
> "made-for-TV-movie" in print. But to a certain extent it's a matter
> of taste.
>
> respectfully,
>
> Bolshoy Murza
Is there any particular reason that from the time of the collapse of the
Soviet Empire, beside the Russian philology university students, no one buys
Russian classical literature but everyone is after translations from the
West's "biestsiellyers"
Perhaps you should know that Dostoyevsky is not understood and particularly
even liked by the Russians. His 'dark' books and his searching for the soul
ideas have not been understood and/or accepted during pre-revolutionary 1917
times and during the Soviet period. Actually, it was Japanese ("Hakuchi" =
"Idiot", 1951) and French and American cinematography's in the late 50ies
that have introduced and popularized Dostoyevsky novels (Gerald Philippe in
the role of count Myshkin in 'Idiot' and Yul Brynner in Hollywood's"Brothers
Karamazov", 1958).
Perhaps you can answer few question concerning Russian literature. Please
reply directly under the questions:
1. When (what year) the first modern Russian literature in Russian has been
published and who wrote it?
2. Is theree any particular reason that Nobel prize in literature that has
been established in 1901was not awarded to the pillars of the Russian
classical literature writers in this period:
Lev Tostoy
Anton Chekhov
Maksim Gorki
Please note that two Polish writers: Henryk Sienkiwicz and Wladyslaw Reymont
were receipients of the Nobel Przize in literaure in 1905 and 1924,
respectively.
3. Is there any particualr reason that with the notable exception of Mikhail
Sholokhov (questionable Nobel prize award) all other awarded Russian writers
hve been exiled or being closed to be exiled (Pasternak):
Ivan Bunin, 1933, stateless, French resident
Boris Pasternak, 1958, under the pressure refused to accept
Mikhail Sholokhov, 1965, questionable prize due to the authorship of the
'Quiet Don'
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, 1970, US resident
Iosif Brodsky, 1987, US resident
--
Alexander
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Cindy
If as you and your co-believers seem to believe, everybody is against
the Jews, or perhaps that people everywhee seem to turn against the
jews as a class, then shouldn't it lead you to look for the causing
reasons internally. Just what is it that causes 'anti-semetism' in
all these diverse environments.
Certainly not all Jews experience anti-semetism. This is evident
from the fact that many Jewish people have been protected by others
during outbreaks of persecution.
So what is this magic cultural ingredient?
usertx
> "usertx" <use...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:<b5be2s$5o6$1...@news.tamu.edu>...
> > "Bolshoy Murza" <bolsho...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:3757594a.03031...@posting.google.com...
> > > "il postino" <som...@devnull.com> wrote in message
> > news:<35Rda.129962$b8.22...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
> > >
> > > > > > Tchaikovsky...western educated. Rachmaninoff went to America.
> > > > > > Shostakovich
> > > > > > and Prokofiev persecuted.
> > > > >
> > > > > ...So? How come America never produced a composer equal to
> > > > > Tchaikovsky?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > It did. Copland.
> > >
> > > LOL. You compare Copeland to Tchaikovsky? Well, Tchaikovsky wasn't
> > > "worthy" of having his music used for beef commercials, the most
> > > important category perhaps for the American consumer.
> >
> > Come on Babai, Copland was ok. So was Gershwin. And, grmm.., yeear...,
do
> > not know anybody else.
>
> Exactly. Merely ok is not in the same league as Tchaikovsky.
My apology to Americans, scratching my head a little dipper I've remembered
a couple more classic composers, not much, but still better the Brookski can
perform.
>
> > > > Lots of Russians enjoy listening to American jazz music BTW.
> > >
> > > Yes, as they do the Backstreet boys. We are talking about culture
> > > here, not its progressive decline (or death). Americans are good at
> > > the latter, no doubt about it.
> >
> > Jazz is good. I lake to drop into "Sweet Molly and her preservation
hall" in
> > Big Easy. And believe me or not there are always a few Americans there.
>
> One can always enjoy the product of a culture's decline (a lifetime
> ago I took full advantage of Frankfurt's delightful Omen club) but
> this does not imply an equivalence between low and high culture.
> Although degenerating America seems to disagree: there are now
> university courses taught about the meaning of Madonna videos or Oprah
> Winfrey (who cares about Shakespeare).
Let me disagree. Life is not limited to high culture and Church. With an
exception of a few, this is the way to become religious fanatic just like
<take your pick>. Russian aristocracy (that includes Pushkin , Tolstoy
etc.), for example, used to enjoy decadent Gipsy music a lot. And where you
can put folk music? High, low? Where from composers are taken themes for
their symphonies by the way?
Decadent, yes, but so was just about every Russian poet since Lermantov
BTW, Madonna and Oprah Winfrey have nothing to do with decadence. It is
ketch, pulp, whatever. They are to Jazz as mannerism to primitivism as
sliced bread to Kalach or Zima to Guinness.
Ok:
Melville
Twain
James Joyce
Thomas Wolfe
William Faulkner
John Steinbeck
Ernest Hemingway
Sherwood Anderson
J.D. Salinger
Kurt Vonnegut
Erskine Caldwell
Sinclair Lewis
Robert Penn Warren
even Ursula Le Guin
Pelevin? Sorry, I do not like him at all. Nothing at all as a quality
literature and emotionally vomiting. But I should admit, I do not know
Russian Pepsi generation, may be that is what they really are.
Unfortunately, is this case Brooks won.
I do not want to say America is way ahead of Russia is this aspect (as
judging from reviews of some literature institutes one can say) but It has
first class literature as well.
Regards
MaloMurzik in Texas
> respectfully,
>
> Bolshoy Murza
Cindy S.
>
> Cindy
> If as you and your co-believers seem to believe, everybody is against
> the Jews, or perhaps that people everywhee seem to turn against the
> jews as a class, then shouldn't it lead you to look for the causing
> reasons internally.
Oh, how predictable. Jews are the cause of anti-semitism. What about us is
the problem? Will you claim it is our "big noses?" Is it that we were
"money lenders" (because other sources of income were closed to us)? Is it
our refusal to assimilate? Perhaps our continued insistence on being
different?. Maybe our 2000 year old refusal to validate Christianity by
converting. Possibly in Eastern Europe, the Orthodox Church preaching day
after day for centuries that Jews killed Jesus. Perhaps we are just plain
"obnoxious." Take your pick.
Best regards,
--Cindy S.
usertx
>
> "Bolshoy Murza" wrote
>
> > ??? America has some good authors (Faulkner, Salinger) but they are
> > few and far between. A lot of fashionable nonsense such as Burroughs
> > and that "beat" crap, or popular trash like Dean Koontz. And nobody
> > of Dostoyevsky's stature. I think Argentine literature compares
> > favorably to American. Even Pelevin, at least his earlier stuff, is
> > far far better than any American pop literature, is more than a mere
> > "made-for-TV-movie" in print. But to a certain extent it's a matter
> > of taste.
> >
> > respectfully,
> >
> > Bolshoy Murza
>
>
>
> Is there any particular reason that from the time of the collapse of the
> Soviet Empire, beside the Russian philology university students, no one
buys
> Russian classical literature but everyone is after translations from the
> West's "biestsiellyers"
Absence of their own culture perhaps? Or fruit you cannot get is sweater?
In Russia after 1991 everyone was reading wetst's pulp fiction, watched
porno and listened to western music. Now they are back again watching drama,
and reading their own music and reading their own literature (mostly pulp
fiction naturally).
>
> Perhaps you should know that Dostoyevsky is not understood and
particularly
> even liked by the Russians. His 'dark' books and his searching for the
soul
> ideas have not been understood and/or accepted during pre-revolutionary
1917
> times and during the Soviet period. Actually, it was Japanese ("Hakuchi" =
> "Idiot", 1951) and French and American cinematography's in the late 50ies
> that have introduced and popularized Dostoyevsky novels (Gerald Philippe
in
> the role of count Myshkin in 'Idiot' and Yul Brynner in
Hollywood's"Brothers
> Karamazov", 1958).
So, Russians start reading Dostoevsky after Japanese movie, Idiot? That is
something.
> Perhaps you can answer few question concerning Russian literature. Please
> reply directly under the questions:
>
> 1. When (what year) the first modern Russian literature in Russian has
been
> published and who wrote it?
Please define "modern", "modern Russian", "published". Otherwise range is
from primary chronicles to Pelevin.
>
> 2. Is theree any particular reason that Nobel prize in literature that has
> been established in 1901was not awarded to the pillars of the Russian
> classical literature writers in this period:
>
> Lev Tostoy
> Anton Chekhov
> Maksim Gorki
>
> Please note that two Polish writers: Henryk Sienkiwicz and Wladyslaw
Reymont
> were receipients of the Nobel Przize in literaure in 1905 and 1924,
> respectively.
>
> 3. Is there any particualr reason that with the notable exception of
Mikhail
> Sholokhov (questionable Nobel prize award) all other awarded Russian
writers
> hve been exiled or being closed to be exiled (Pasternak):
>
> Ivan Bunin, 1933, stateless, French resident
> Boris Pasternak, 1958, under the pressure refused to accept
> Mikhail Sholokhov, 1965, questionable prize due to the authorship of the
> 'Quiet Don'
> Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, 1970, US resident
> Iosif Brodsky, 1987, US resident
Nobel Prize has been given to them not (not only) because they were good but
becaurse they were or can be presented to the public and anti-soviet. Can
you give other explanation?
Now question for you:
Why Ivan the Terrible is a world symbol of tyranny while he was just a
schoolboy in scale and graveness compare to, for example, well respected
King James.
>
> --
> Alexander
>
>
>
>
il postino
...and every Russian author is a great author? No. Russia has 1000 years of
history. OK so they produced a handful of authors qualified to have dusty
books on college bookstore shelves. Not much to show for being around so
long.
Kandinsky sure ain't no Repin. Any fool with a can of paint and a paintbrush
tied to his penis can be an abstract "artist". Russian has COMPLETELY fallen
off the edge of the earth since 1990 with regard to all forms of art.
Bolshoy Murza
> >
> > There would be no Jews left in Europe if not for the sacrifices of the
> > Russian and Ukrainian troops during World War II. Remember that
> > before you demonstrate your ingratitude, Cindy S.
> >
> > Bolshoy Murza
>
> A consequential result. Saving Jews was not the intention of Russians or
> Ukrainians, Saving themselves was.
Certainly. But that does not contradict what I wrote: without the
sacrifices of the Russian and Ukrainian people there would no longer
be any Jews in Europe.
> Maybe there would be no French speaking Frenchmen left in Europe without the
> US and Britain...only Nazi collaborators left.
No, there would only be a French "People's Democratic Republic".
Those French intellectuals playing with Marxism would have found
themselves logging tress in some gulag in the Far north. Would have
served the French right, too, after their shameful betrayal of Poland.
> But that is long erased from France's consciousness.
Two wrongs don't make a right. The French are not obligated to
participate in America's mistakes because Americans saved their asses
50 years ago. On the contrary, French actions to try to prevent the
war were favors to America: like a friend trying to hide the car keys
from his drunk friend at a party. The friend will be hated at first,
but thanked in the morning once the drunk recovers. In America's
case, after the car is totalled he'll wish the friend would have been
able to keep those keys away...
Bolshoy Murza
Bolshoy Murza
> "Bolshoy Murza" <bolsho...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3757594a.03032...@posting.google.com...
> > > Oh right. Russians and Ukranians sacrificed their lives for Jews. The
> > > biggest anti-semites of all.
> >
> > One of my wife's Jewish friends from Moscow immigrated to Israel. she
> > says she never knew what antisemitism really was until she encountered
> > the Jews there, and the way they treat Russian immigrants.
>
> When the Israeli Einsatzgruppen are driving around Israeli, mowing down
> towns full of Russian immigrants and dumping their bodies in mass graves, I
> will agree you have a case.
Sorry, I never compared Israel to nazi Germnay. A better analogy
would be to compare it to apartheid South Africa (Israel was one of
the strongest diplomatic supporters of A.P. South Africa btw) or to
the American South prior to the 1950's.
> >It's no
> > coincidence that the first time the Israeli government backed down
> > after a Palestinian terror attack was when it occurred on a disco
> > where the victims were Russian Jews.
>
> Talk about grasping at straws.
> >
> > The friend is back in Moscow. Safe once again.
>
> Good. I hope she enjoys herself there.
> >
> >
> > Maybe then you should also hate not only Ukrainians and Russians but
> > your fellow Jews who also worked in police units during the
> > occupation.
>
> Who were also terrified for their lives. Many of them believed that they
> would somehow be able to save some Jews this way. In the end, they were
> murdered just like all the rest.
As if Ukrainian or Russian POWs weren't also trying to save their own
lives. I detect an implication in your attitude, however, that the
latter lives don't matter as much.
> >Actually my family also has a story about Jews. My
> > grandfather's family saved their village's Jewish family during one of
> > Denikin's pogroms during the Russian civil war. In the 1930's, the
> > favor was repaid when my grandfather escaped persecution by moving to
> > Kharkov where he stayed in the Jewish neighborhood with relatives of
> > those his family saved.
>
> Very nice story, assuming it's true.
>
> >During the famine, when Ukrainian peasants
> > were literally starving, mothers with small children would be dying in
> > the streets, more than one old Jew would, for example, feed bread to
> > birds in front of the dying children. Ukrainians or Russians would be
> > ashamed to do this: they would eat their rations at home, quietly.
> >
> > I wonder how many of those child survivors would later participate in
> > the atrocities of the 1940's?
>
> Of course. The usual anti-semitic claim that the Jews themselves are
> responsible for anti-semitism.
Please note that I stated that collective punishment is wrong.
Punishing the innocent for the crimes of the guilty is wrong. Of
course the Israeili government doesn't feel that way as it bulldozes
the homes of the parents etc. of suicide bombers.
In the case I described above, however. If one of those starving kids
grew up to be an antisemite, after witnessing a Jewish woman feeding
bread to birds while he starved, who would be responsible for his
antisemitism? Australian aboriginals?
> Anti-semitism wasn't born in 1940 my friend.
I am familar with the viscious cycle in eastern Europe, a vicious
cycle which as the Jewish participation in the NKVD showed, the Jews
participated as much as did gentiles. "Your" hands (and I mean that
rhetorically, not as a collective condemnation on you personally) are
as bloody as "ours".
> There was plenty of it to go around long before then. My great grandparents
> and grandparents immigrated to the US at the turn of the century. The Jews
> were ghettoized in Russian by the tzars, long before Hitler. There were
> pogroms long before WWII. My 18-year-old grandmother would have to hide in
> the barn to avoid being raped by the Russian soldiers who held military
> exercises near their town in the spring. The Jews would have to stand
> outside their doors with axes to protect their families from the drunken
> Russians. I don't believe for one second that elderly Jews were feeding
> bread to birds. The Jews themselves were also starving. They would have
> eaten the bread themselves.
Wrong. People registered in that city were given food - Jews and
Ukrainians (my grandfather was working as an editor in a factory
newspaper then). This was in the 1930's. The countryside, not the
city, was starving during the artificial famine. Unregistered
peasants came into the city to beg for food, or starve.
Why don't you read intot he Famine and see who was starving where in
1932-1933, with all due respect you obviously aren't familiar with it.
Perhaps you can also look up who was the architect of that famine,
the "Eichmann" of the Ukrainian people.
> >And do not forget the dramatic
> > over-representation of Jews in the NKVD and Cheka. This is a fact,
> > too.
> >
> > Not that guilt should be collective, although obviously *you* think in
> > these terms, Cindy S.
> >
> And I think you need to face the reality that Eastern Europe is, was, and
> always has been anti-semitic.
Only to the extent that people like you are, were and always have been
anti-Eastern European.
> I find it laughable that you are so desperate
> to vindicate the Eastern European complicity with the Holocaust
I never denied this complicity, I wonder however if you deny the
complicity of some Jews in the mass murder of eastern Europans. Or is
mentioning unpleasant truths "anti-semitic".
> that you
> would try to claim that Sharon's failure to react strongly enough to a
> bombed disco in Israel is somehow the same thing.
Never claimed that, sorry.
Cindy S.
> "il postino" <som...@devnull.com> wrote in message
news:<Xgjea.143328$b8.27...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
> > >
> > > There would be no Jews left in Europe if not for the sacrifices of the
> > > Russian and Ukrainian troops during World War II. Remember that
> > > before you demonstrate your ingratitude, Cindy S.
> > >
> > > Bolshoy Murza
> >
> > A consequential result. Saving Jews was not the intention of Russians or
> > Ukrainians, Saving themselves was.
>
> Certainly. But that does not contradict what I wrote: without the
> sacrifices of the Russian and Ukrainian people there would no longer
> be any Jews in Europe.
And if that were the case, which I seriously doubt, then I would argue it is
only by accident. The Russians and Ukrainians were fighting on their own
behalf. Or will you claim that the same people who operated the
Einsatzgruppenm, the notorious mobile killing units, were motivated by an
overwhelming desire to save the Jews from the Nazis (with whom they were
collaborating vis-a-vis the final solution)? And while we are at it, perhaps
you can explain why it was that Jewish refugees who managed to survive the
camps to return to their homes in their Eastern European villages were not
exactly "welcomed" (in some cases subsequently murdered) by their former
neighbors who were disappointed to find that Hitler had failed to finish the
job.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
>>> Maybe I should demonstrate my gratitude to the Russians and Ukrainians
>>> who eagerly joined the Einsatzgruppen who took the Jews of Radun
>>> (which included my aunts, uncles, and cousins) outside of town
> > and shot them. This my friend is historical fact.
> > Best regards,
> > ---Cindy S.
>
> >
> > Yes some shameful atrocities occured, and also courageous resistance.
> >
> > However: the ghettoization of Palestinians in their own land, the
> > Sabra, Shatilla, Jenin, and other camps, expansion into new lebensraum,
> > denaial of right of return of refugees, and other general implementation
> > of the Zionist solution for the Palestinian people are also more recent
> > historical facts. Moreover being done by a people who make victimhood an
> > art form. And certainly not every Jew is guilty of supporting these
> > policies. There are some righteous Jews who try to oppose them.
>
>
> Oh, baloney. When you can show me that the Jews of Eastern Europe were
> sending suicide bombers to target Russian and Ukranian children, then I will
> agree that the situations are equivalent.
>
> >
Which shows intentional misunderstanding and rejection of the presented
facts as reality.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Well Mrs. Cohen isn't usually obnoxious. She is somewhat forcefull.
I believe that she is a convert, and so 'more English than the English'
(to borrow a phrase). And she does sometimes stretch the facts, in an
arguement. But so do we all. Finally when cornered (called on the facts)
she does fall back on the old arguements 'You are a Nazi ... etc.'
Cindy S.
"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urj...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3E7A3316...@bellsouth.net...
Because they are not reality.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
>
> Absence of their own culture perhaps? Or fruit you cannot get is sweater?
Whaaat? Fruit of the loom? They make socks and underwear not sweaters!
>
> In Russia after 1991 everyone was reading wetst's pulp fiction, watched
> porno and listened to western music. Now they are back again watching drama,
> and reading their own music and reading their own literature (mostly pulp
> fiction naturally).
>
Now they produce the videos for export.
> > ..................................
>
> So, Russians start reading Dostoevsky after Japanese movie, Idiot?
> That is something.
Were the quotes omitted intentionally?
wies...@_spamgazeta.se
> Well Mrs. Cohen isn't usually obnoxious. She is somewhat forcefull.
> I believe that she is a convert, and so 'more English than the English'
> (to borrow a phrase). And she does sometimes stretch the facts, in an
> arguement. But so do we all. Finally when cornered (called on the facts)
> she does fall back on the old arguements 'You are a Nazi ... etc.'
And she has right
WHY can you a BIG boy keep you to the subject?
- "Stalin's Legacy: The Russian challenge"
- are you afraid for one womewn ? Big Boy?
-------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.algonet.se/~wieslaw/Krupinski
Uprzejmosc, nie jest usprawiedliwieniem glupoty.
Czyni ja tylko bardziej upierdliwa.
Reputacja zastepuje durniom inteligiencje
a
z
<
Alexander Sharon
Funny that all this BS comes from the mouth of Ukrainian riezun.
Your father saved Jewish family and they fed bread to chicken. Are you nuts?
AV
> Is there any particular reason that from the time of the collapse of the
> Soviet Empire, beside the Russian philology university students, no one buys
> Russian classical literature but everyone is after translations from the
> West's "biestsiellyers"
General degradation.
> Perhaps you should know that Dostoyevsky is not understood and particularly
> even liked by the Russians. His 'dark' books and his searching for the soul
> ideas have not been understood and/or accepted during pre-revolutionary 1917
> times and during the Soviet period. Actually, it was Japanese ("Hakuchi" =
> "Idiot", 1951) and French and American cinematography's in the late 50ies
> that have introduced and popularized Dostoyevsky novels (Gerald Philippe in
> the role of count Myshkin in 'Idiot' and Yul Brynner in Hollywood's"Brothers
> Karamazov", 1958).
>
> Perhaps you can answer few question concerning Russian literature. Please
> reply directly under the questions:
>
> 1. When (what year) the first modern Russian literature in Russian has been
> published and who wrote it?
what you mean by modern ...
> 2. Is theree any particular reason that Nobel prize in literature that has
> been established in 1901was not awarded to the pillars of the Russian
> classical literature writers in this period:
>
> Lev Tostoy
> Anton Chekhov
> Maksim Gorki
Incompetence ..
> Please note that two Polish writers: Henryk Sienkiwicz and Wladyslaw Reymont
> were receipients of the Nobel Przize in literaure in 1905 and 1924,
> respectively.
Proves the above.
> 3. Is there any particualr reason that with the notable exception of Mikhail
> Sholokhov (questionable Nobel prize award) all other awarded Russian writers
> hve been exiled or being closed to be exiled (Pasternak):
Political reason
> Ivan Bunin, 1933, stateless, French resident
> Boris Pasternak, 1958, under the pressure refused to accept
> Mikhail Sholokhov, 1965, questionable prize due to the authorship of the
> 'Quiet Don'
> Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, 1970, US resident
Aleksander Solzhenitsyn returned and lives in Russia.
il postino
Hindsight may be more accurate than foresight but even so, it will be
interesting to see where everyone stands if Iraq is liberated after a short
war.
I don't see a whole lot of people complainin' about the US going into Kosovo
or Afghanistan.
If the US does get the best case scenario, France, Germany, Russia and China
(the 4 fuck-ups) are going to look pretty foolish.
AV
Ok, Kosovo was a major crime committed by NATO. Those responsible are
still at large... And Afghanistan was an irrelevant war. Opportunity to
perform cleaning operation aimed at formerly beloved, financed and
trained 'freedom fighters' that US used to undermine Soviet Union.
Russia couldn't care less for former CIA friends standing behind
terrorism in Chechnya.
> If the US does get the best case scenario, France, Germany, Russia and China
> (the 4 fuck-ups) are going to look pretty foolish.
You are already looking pretty foolish. With no hope for the future ..
pas de deux
heretics". She sends inflammatory messages to
soc.culture.baltics, soc.culture.czecho-slovak, soc.culture.russian and
soc.culture.polish just to stir people up, and she crossposts to
soc.culture.jewish and soc.culture.israel to show her pals what a hero she
is.
Well, get back to your studies Cindy or you'll never get out of first year
university. And please leave soc.culture.baltics off your crossposting list
in future.
GK
***
"Cindy S." <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:wLqea.77554$_7.2...@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
Cindy S.
"pas de deux" <pas_d...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:JYsea.5483$sK6.7...@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Seems like Cindy S. is out to make a name for herself as the "scourge of
> heretics". She sends inflammatory messages to
> soc.culture.baltics, soc.culture.czecho-slovak, soc.culture.russian and
> soc.culture.polish just to stir people up, and she crossposts to
> soc.culture.jewish and soc.culture.israel to show her pals what a hero she
> is.
You have it backwards. I am posting FROM soc.culture.jewish. I am
RESPONDING to inflammatory posts which apparently originate from
soc.culture.baltics, soc.culture.czecho-slovak, soc.culture.russian or
soc.culture.polish (I don't know which) and have been crossposted to
soc.culture.jewish and soc.culture.israel. I haven't any interest in
starting anything with the members of Eastern European newsgroups, but if
you are going to attack Jews and crosspost to the Jewish groups, I am going
to respond.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
TonyaK911
Looking foolish is nothing new for Russia. They'll survive this time
as well.
The Germans will keep investigating their belly-button, no matter
what.
Chinese were smart enough not to get into photo-ops with Villapen.
The French will be suffering like hell. There are only two things that
are percieved as real damnation for the froggies:
1. when they are considered irrelevant,
2. when they are caught once again in the act of surrender.
The number 1 is already under way.
The number 2 will come as soon as the French discover how expensive
their obstruction to US will be...
TK9
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
>
> "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urj...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:3E7A13AF...@bellsouth.net...
> >
> > Cindy
> > If as you and your co-believers seem to believe, everybody is against
> > the Jews, or perhaps that people everywhee seem to turn against the
> > jews as a class, then shouldn't it lead you to look for the causing
> > reasons internally.
>
> Oh, how predictable. Jews are the cause of anti-semitism.
Cindy, to use your own style of arguement, I would have to say something
such as "If there were no Jews, there wouldn't be any anti-semitism"
Now does that kind of a statement make sense to you?
tick ., tick .., tick ..., wait for it to penetrate ..
I thought so :(
> What about us is the problem?
> Will you claim it is our "big noses?"
No, not in the literals sense, I won't.
> Is it that we were "money lenders"
> (because other sources of income were closed to us)?
Not because of that reason.
> Is it our refusal to assimilate?
> Perhaps our continued insistence on being different?.
Well it isn't in appearance, and language, or most other
characteristics.
and yet there is something more prevalent in acquired behaviours that
triggers the hostilities against the community. It's like the center
of gravity for the cloud of characteristics of the people identified
with the group is displaced enough in a direction displeasing to the
other people in the community, that then gets the evaluation transferred
to everybody in the group.
(A poor explanation, I know)
> Maybe our 2000 year old refusal to validate Christianity by
> converting. Possibly in Eastern Europe, the Orthodox Church preaching day
> after day for centuries that Jews killed Jesus.
No for then anti-semitism wouldn't show up in Non Christian( and Muslim)
neighbourhoods.
> Perhaps we are just plain "obnoxious."
Your words and self evaluation. NOT MINE
I know that many people consider my behaviour ... to be obnoxious.
I certainly hope they don't transfer that evaluation to smear others.
>Take your pick.
NO. not me,... You
Now, to what do You attribute the existance and flare ups of
anti-semitism,
other than just because Jews exist.
>
> Best regards,
Thank you.
> --Cindy S.
--Rostyk
Bolshoy Murza
> "Bolshoy Murza" <bolsho...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3757594a.03032...@posting.google.com...
> > "il postino" <som...@devnull.com> wrote in message
> news:<Xgjea.143328$b8.27...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
> > > >
> > > > There would be no Jews left in Europe if not for the sacrifices of the
> > > > Russian and Ukrainian troops during World War II. Remember that
> > > > before you demonstrate your ingratitude, Cindy S.
> > > >
> > > > Bolshoy Murza
> > >
> > > A consequential result. Saving Jews was not the intention of Russians or
> > > Ukrainians, Saving themselves was.
> >
> > Certainly. But that does not contradict what I wrote: without the
> > sacrifices of the Russian and Ukrainian people there would no longer
> > be any Jews in Europe.
> ----------
> And if that were the case, which I seriously doubt, then I would argue it is
> only by accident. The Russians and Ukrainians were fighting on their own
> behalf. Or will you claim that the same people who operated the
> Einsatzgruppenm, the notorious mobile killing units, were motivated by an
> overwhelming desire to save the Jews from the Nazis (with whom they were
> collaborating vis-a-vis the final solution)?
I hope in the above staement "the same people" you were not smearing
the vetrerans of the Soviet army by considering them the "same people"
as those who worked it the camps. If so, then you are no better than
those who unfairly condemned all Jews for the crimes of the few in the
NKVD.
> And while we are at it, perhaps
> you can explain why it was that Jewish refugees who managed to survive the
> camps to return to their homes in their Eastern European villages were not
> exactly "welcomed" (in some cases subsequently murdered) by their former
> neighbors who were disappointed to find that Hitler had failed to finish the
> job.
By "all" their neighbors? "All" the Jews? For someone who belonged
to a nation that was persecuted horribly, by having the principle of
collective guilt applied to you, you sure do like to spread that guilt
around to other people.
Bolshoy Murza
You just, above, showed the extent to which you change facts. What
chickens What father? I guess you've reached your limit of
comprehension.
It speaks volumes about your credibility in other matters, Mr. sharon.
Bolshoy Murza
Cindy S.
I was talking about neither the Soviet Army nor those who worked in the
camps. I was talking primarily about the Einsatzgruppen, the mobile killing
units, which were staffed by volunteers under the auspices of the SS.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Cindy S.
> "Cindy S." wrote:
> >
> > "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urj...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > news:3E7A13AF...@bellsouth.net...
> > >
> > > Cindy
> > > If as you and your co-believers seem to believe, everybody is against
> > > the Jews, or perhaps that people everywhee seem to turn against the
> > > jews as a class, then shouldn't it lead you to look for the causing
> > > reasons internally.
> >
> > Oh, how predictable. Jews are the cause of anti-semitism.
>
> Cindy, to use your own style of arguement, I would have to say something
> such as "If there were no Jews, there wouldn't be any anti-semitism"
> Now does that kind of a statement make sense to you?
Of course it is ridiculous, but this is what you are implying. You have just
told me that Jews are the cause of anti-semitism because if everyone is
turning against us, we must be doing something "wrong."
It's a combination of factors. Primarily, I think it's because we refuse to
assimilate. We keep to ourselves. We are different. People are afraid of
what is different and/or what they don't understand. What do you think it
is?
Best regards,
--Cindy S.
Bolshoy Murza
I forgot to mention, how quickly this Alexander Sharon creature
descends to racist gibberish. Didn't have much to add about the Gogol
part of the thread, did you though? ; )
Bolshoy Murza
p.s. more "bs" for you: my great-grandfather (from the Galician side
of the family) risked his life hiding two Jewish sisters, surname
Badian, during World War II. They emigrated to Israel after the war.
Of course for racist trash such as yourself that doesn't matter, it's
just "bs" from a "Ukrainian riezun".
Alexander Sharon
You are rare shmuck Murza, and in the recognition of your infantility you
have been degraded from Bolshoy Murza to Litlle Murzilka.
Alexander Sharon
"Bolshoy Murza" wrote in message
Which Badian?
From Boryslaw /Truskavets? Or Bobrka?
Cindy S.
> "Cindy S." <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:<fIkea.77056$_7.1...@twister.nyroc.rr.com>...
> > "Bolshoy Murza" <bolsho...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:3757594a.03032...@posting.google.com...
> > > > Oh right. Russians and Ukranians sacrificed their lives for Jews.
The
> > > > biggest anti-semites of all.
> > >
> > > One of my wife's Jewish friends from Moscow immigrated to Israel. she
> > > says she never knew what antisemitism really was until she encountered
> > > the Jews there, and the way they treat Russian immigrants.
> >
> > When the Israeli Einsatzgruppen are driving around Israeli, mowing down
> > towns full of Russian immigrants and dumping their bodies in mass
graves, I
> > will agree you have a case.
>
> Sorry, I never compared Israel to nazi Germnay. A better analogy
> would be to compare it to apartheid South Africa (Israel was one of
> the strongest diplomatic supporters of A.P. South Africa btw) or to
> the American South prior to the 1950's.
Except the fact that you seem to overlook is one of the big reasons for this
so-called apartheid is that the *Palestinians* keep sending suicide bombers
into Israel to target school buses, pizzerias, etc. The Arabs don't want a
Palestinian State, except perhaps as a stepping stone. Their ultimate goal
is the destruction of the State of Israel. How do I know this? (Other than
the fact that they have so stated again and again and again?) Every time
there is another attempt to begin the talks which would give them their own
state, the suicide bombings increase. Does this sound like peace-seeking
people to you? How would you suggest that Israel protect her citizens?
>
> > >It's no
> > > coincidence that the first time the Israeli government backed down
> > > after a Palestinian terror attack was when it occurred on a disco
> > > where the victims were Russian Jews.
> >
> > Talk about grasping at straws.
> > >
> > > The friend is back in Moscow. Safe once again.
> >
> > Good. I hope she enjoys herself there.
> > >
> > >
> > > Maybe then you should also hate not only Ukrainians and Russians but
> > > your fellow Jews who also worked in police units during the
> > > occupation.
> >
> > Who were also terrified for their lives. Many of them believed that they
> > would somehow be able to save some Jews this way. In the end, they were
> > murdered just like all the rest.
>
> As if Ukrainian or Russian POWs weren't also trying to save their own
> lives. I detect an implication in your attitude, however, that the
> latter lives don't matter as much.
You're reading an awful lot into my words. I wasn't even talking about POWs.
I was talking about people who volunteered for the mobile killing units.
Nobody forced them, and they weren't POWs. Perhaps you can explain to me why
so many of the Eastern Europeans held such hatred for Jews, and don't tell
me it's because some elderly Jews were feeding the birds.
>
> > >Actually my family also has a story about Jews. My
> > > grandfather's family saved their village's Jewish family during one of
> > > Denikin's pogroms during the Russian civil war. In the 1930's, the
> > > favor was repaid when my grandfather escaped persecution by moving to
> > > Kharkov where he stayed in the Jewish neighborhood with relatives of
> > > those his family saved.
> >
> > Very nice story, assuming it's true.
> >
> > >During the famine, when Ukrainian peasants
> > > were literally starving, mothers with small children would be dying in
> > > the streets, more than one old Jew would, for example, feed bread to
> > > birds in front of the dying children.
All right, let's assume this is true. Do you think Jews are inherently cruel
people? Are we inhuman? What would motivate us to feed birds in lieu of
children?
>
> Please note that I stated that collective punishment is wrong.
> Punishing the innocent for the crimes of the guilty is wrong. Of
> course the Israeili government doesn't feel that way as it bulldozes
> the homes of the parents etc. of suicide bombers.
It's not nice but it works and destroying a building is a heck of a lot more
humane than harming a person. How would you suggest Israel stop the suicide
bombers? And don't tell me "give the Palestinians the land" because the
Israelis are perfectly willing to do so. Every time there is to be another
round of negotiations, the suicide bombings increase.
>
> I am familar with the viscious cycle in eastern Europe, a vicious
> cycle which as the Jewish participation in the NKVD showed, the Jews
> participated as much as did gentiles. "Your" hands (and I mean that
> rhetorically, not as a collective condemnation on you personally) are
> as bloody as "ours".
>
> > There was plenty of it to go around long before then. My great
grandparents
> > and grandparents immigrated to the US at the turn of the century. The
Jews
> > were ghettoized in Russian by the tzars, long before Hitler. There were
> > pogroms long before WWII. My 18-year-old grandmother would have to hide
in
> > the barn to avoid being raped by the Russian soldiers who held military
> > exercises near their town in the spring. The Jews would have to stand
> > outside their doors with axes to protect their families from the drunken
> > Russians. I don't believe for one second that elderly Jews were feeding
> > bread to birds. The Jews themselves were also starving. They would have
> > eaten the bread themselves.
>
> Wrong. People registered in that city were given food - Jews and
> Ukrainians (my grandfather was working as an editor in a factory
> newspaper then). This was in the 1930's. The countryside, not the
> city, was starving during the artificial famine. Unregistered
> peasants came into the city to beg for food, or starve.
Actually I was talking about long before the 1930s and the Russian
Revolution. I was talking about the latter half of the 19th century.
>
> Why don't you read intot he Famine and see who was starving where in
> 1932-1933, with all due respect you obviously aren't familiar with it.
> Perhaps you can also look up who was the architect of that famine,
> the "Eichmann" of the Ukrainian people.
I can see we have been talking past each other. I was talking about
historical anti-semitism (as in under the tsar). I wasn't talking about the
1930s at all.
>
> > >And do not forget the dramatic
> > > over-representation of Jews in the NKVD and Cheka. This is a fact,
> > > too.
> > >
> > > Not that guilt should be collective, although obviously *you* think in
> > > these terms, Cindy S.
> > >
Actually, yes. Jews do believe in collective guilt and that would apply to
ourselves as much as to others. We believe that we are responsible for each
other. On Yom Kippur, we ask for atonement as a community.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Atta girl.
Just pick your battles, and of course make sure that your arguements
are valid, and avoid slurs, insults and the usual ad hominems.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Above I tried to show how I don't think any of these, which you give
as reasons, is valid.
> What do you think it is?
Also, above, I have tried to give my opinion/impression of what
it is. "and yet there is something ... (A poor explanation, I know)"
Also while many of the villifications of the Jews are obviously
and even laughably unfounded, quite a few individual examples are true,
however vehemently they are denied. Many more, accused groups, at least
partially admit and accept group responsibility for misdeeds by persons
who come from that group.
> Best regards,
> --Cindy S.
I
il postino
"TonyaK911" <Tony...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:bf4ca8d4.03032...@posting.google.com...
Requests to the UN for Iraq reconstruction will be an interesting (amusing)
test of France and Germany supposed humanitarianism and their support for
the UN.
In a way it will be great payback for the US...putting Chirac and Shroeder
on the spot to put their money where their mouths are while listening to the
gurgling sounds of their economies go down the toilet.
I think we will discover that Chirac and Shroeder are not the great
humanitarians that they pretend to be.
Should be lots of fun...stay tuned.
Bolshoy Murza
I don't know their origin, I know they were hidden in Hrymaliv, Ternopil oblast.
Not that it matters to racist scum such as yourself.
Bolshoy Murza
Bolshoy Murza
All you have proven is that, when your diocy has been exposed (with
respect to Gogol), you just resort to empty insults. Sorry, Sharon,
you're a PROVEN idiot. Your "insults" matter little in this context.
Have a nice day : )
Bolshoy Murza
pas de deux
Yet another Russian contribution to world learning....
GK
****************
Cindy S.
> Hey Murziuk - did you know there's a search engine called 'Gogol'?
>
> Yet another Russian contribution to world learning....
>
> GK
>
Why are you crossposting to the Jewish groups?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
pas de deux
already there.
No one is forcing you to reply, and no one is stopping you from dropping
soc.culture.baltics from the list if you do reply.
By the way, have you ever in your short life posted anything positive about
what Lithuanians and Jews learnt from each other after many centuries of
living together?
It's no accident, for example, that North Americans sometimes think I'm a
Jew. What they recognise in me – that I have in common with some Jewish
people – is the Eastern European 'présence'.
I am particularly disturbed that many young North American Jews think that
'Eastern European bashing' is a good hobby and a good way to earn kudos in
the eyes of their peers.
OK, OK, already, all the Holocaust information needs to be known, preserved
and passed on, but a mental diet of nothing but Holocaust talk makes for
stunted characters.
Stop and consider that a minuscule minority of people in Eastern Europe were
involved in the condemnable acitivities, which were, by the way, entirely a
result of foreign interference. All the rest were just minding their own
business and getting on with life and trying to survive. Don't take out
your emotions on people who weren't even born then and had nothing to do
with it and certainly do not approve of it.
If the Russians and Germans (Hitler-Stalin pact of 1938 and all the
subsequent...) had not interfered in the Baltic states, Jews and non-Jews
would be living alongside each other enriching each other's lives the way
they do in New York, Montréal and many other places.
Regards
GK
***
"Cindy S." <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:k5Hea.53878$yc5....@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
Cindy S.
> I didn't string all this newsgroups into the address space, they were
> already there.
>
Nor did I, but yesterday that's exactly what you accused me of doing.
> No one is forcing you to reply, and no one is stopping you from dropping
> soc.culture.baltics from the list if you do reply.
Which I have done on several subsequent posts. No one is stopping you from
dropping soc.culture.jewish and soc.culture.israel.
> By the way, have you ever in your short life posted anything positive
about
> what Lithuanians and Jews learnt from each other after many centuries of
> living together?
I've never posted anything about the relationships between Lithuanians and
Jews, positive or negative, other than what you saw me post yesterday in
response to someone else's offensive post. And what makes you think my life
has been so short?
>
> It's no accident, for example, that North Americans sometimes think I'm a
> Jew. What they recognise in me - that I have in common with some Jewish
> people - is the Eastern European 'présence'.
>
> I am particularly disturbed that many young North American Jews think that
> 'Eastern European bashing' is a good hobby and a good way to earn kudos in
> the eyes of their peers.
In spite of what you may think, I am not so young (not that I wouldn't like
to be...) That having been said, I was RESPONDING to a post which asserted
that Stalin was a great friend to Jews and that Israelis are now employing
Stalinesque techniques to oppress Palestinians. I didn't have any idea where
the original post was coming from (as you yourself have noted, there is an
entire string of newsgroups to which this thread is being crossposted). My
original posts go only to soc.jewish.culture and soc.culture.israel. I have
never sent an original post to an Eastern European newsgroup. If I did, the
purpose of it would be to ask for information about the village which used
to be called "Radun," which I hope to visit someday.
>
> OK, OK, already, all the Holocaust information needs to be known,
preserved
> and passed on, but a mental diet of nothing but Holocaust talk makes for
> stunted characters.
I rarely post about the Holocaust. It just so happened to have come up in
this particular thread.
>
> Stop and consider that a minuscule minority of people in Eastern Europe
were
> involved in the condemnable acitivities, which were, by the way, entirely
a
> result of foreign interference. All the rest were just minding their own
> business and getting on with life and trying to survive. Don't take out
> your emotions on people who weren't even born then and had nothing to do
> with it and certainly do not approve of it.
As I stated, I was responding to the implication that Jews were somehow in
league with Stalin, which is at least as bad if not worse than saying we
were in league with Hitler. And the claim that Israelis are employing
Stalinesque techniques to oppress Palestinians is offensive at the very
least, not to mention an outright lie. Crosslinks to the Jewish newsgroups
had deliberately been added (by someone who was posting from one of the
Eastern European newsgroups - I don't know which one) in the middle of the
thread. You can certainly understand why I would find these statements
inflammatory and outrageous. I responded in kind.
>
> If the Russians and Germans (Hitler-Stalin pact of 1938 and all the
> subsequent...) had not interfered in the Baltic states, Jews and non-Jews
> would be living alongside each other enriching each other's lives the way
> they do in New York, Montréal and many other places.
Very likely. We will never know.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
AV
> Requests to the UN for Iraq reconstruction will be an interesting (amusing)
> test of France and Germany supposed humanitarianism and their support for
> the UN.
Yeah, very amusing. Create bloody mess and destruction in spite of
everyone's protests and then suggest them to rebuild and heal the
wounds. And if they refuse question their humanitarianism.
It's very amusing. For the fools.
Susan Cohen
>
> "pas de deux" <pas_d...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:WTHea.1195$oY6.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
> > I didn't string all this newsgroups into the address space, they were
> > already there.
> >
> Nor did I, but yesterday that's exactly what you accused me of doing.
>
> > No one is forcing you to reply, and no one is stopping you from dropping
> > soc.culture.baltics from the list if you do reply.
>
> Which I have done on several subsequent posts. No one is stopping you from
> dropping soc.culture.jewish and soc.culture.israel.
>
> > By the way, have you ever in your short life posted anything positive
> about
> > what Lithuanians and Jews learnt from each other after many centuries of
> > living together?
>
> I've never posted anything about the relationships between Lithuanians and
> Jews, positive or negative, other than what you saw me post yesterday in
> response to someone else's offensive post. And what makes you think my
life
> has been so short?
Male chauvinism.
>
> >
> > It's no accident, for example, that North Americans sometimes think I'm
a
> > Jew.
I'm never surprised that people are stupid, either
Susan
il postino
"AV" <A...@nospam.ru> wrote in message news:b5g7nc$eqv$1...@zware.space.ru...
> il postino wrote:
>
> > Requests to the UN for Iraq reconstruction will be an interesting
(amusing)
> > test of France and Germany supposed humanitarianism and their support
for
> > the UN.
>
> Yeah, very amusing. Create bloody mess and destruction in spite of
> everyone's protests and then suggest them to rebuild and heal the
> wounds. And if they refuse question their humanitarianism.
> It's very amusing. For the fools.
>
The French worm Chirac is already trying to get his hangs back into the
cookie jar after Bush slapped his slimy paws.
pas de deux
"Susan Cohen" <fla...@his.com> wrote, in message
news:3e7b9...@vienna7.his.com,
in regard to my comment to someone else about their short life, and that
person's response «And what makes you think my
life has been so short?»
> Male chauvinism.
Well, Ms Bossy Buttinski, what makes you think a male wrote the comments to
the other person?
I also said, in an appropriate context, «It's no accident that North
Americans sometimes think I'm a Jew.»
To which undergraduate-mentality "Susan Cohen" said:
> I'm never surprised that people are stupid, either.
What does that mean, Susie? That only a schlemmiel could mistake a goy for
a Jew? Why would that be? Do the goyim even look inferior to the trained
eye? Or is it the unclean pork smell? (Some of us are vegans, you know.)
GK
captain !
>
> Captain,
>
> I thought you had joined the ranks of Osama and Saddam...we were wondering
> if you are dead or alive. Apparently rumors of your demise are premature.
>
> Susan Cohen is the super-Jew. She usually drags along her trusty cohort
> Micky...sort of like Batman and Robin. I can never really tell who is more
> obnoxious though.
>
>
nah, just been busy. i am now officially pro-iraq war for a couple reasons.
i would like it to end as soon as possible however.
il postino
I am pro regime change. I want the war to end as soon as the objectives are
achieved.
"captain !" <wh...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:DeZea.275261$na.17...@news2.calgary.shaw.ca...