World's nations' transparency index- Pak closer to bottom than last year
Mirza Ghalib
84 th in 2009. Pakistan has slipped: from 134th to 139th, in
a field of 180. Koran says nothing against bribes, so it is
halal.
==================================================
SOMALIA, AFGHANISTAN MOST CORRUPT NATIONS: report
Canada tied for 8th least corrupt nation
Last Updated: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 | 12:05 PM ET
Comments115Recommend52
CBC News
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/11/17/annual-corruption-index.html
Internally displaced children eat outside their makeshift shelter at a
camp outside Mogadishu, Somalia. The country is rated as the world's
most corrupt nation. (Omar Faruk/Reuters)Somalia and Afghanistan,
countries that receive billions of dollars a year in international
support, are among the world's most corrupt nations, a watchdog group
says.
Transparency International released its annual Corruption Perceptions
Index on Tuesday, saying war-ravaged Somalia remains the world's most
corrupt country, followed by Afghanistan, Burma, also known as
Myanmar, and Sudan.
According to the latest report from the Berlin-based organization, New
Zealand is the most principled country, followed by Denmark, Singapore
and Sweden.
Canada is tied for eighth place with Australia and Iceland — up one
spot from the 2008 survey — while the United States is ranked 19th.
The organization attributed the least corruptible countries' strong
performance to their "political stability, long-established conflict
of interest regulations and solid, functioning public institutions."
Transparency International's rankings are based on how corrupt a
country's government is perceived to be by experts and international
institutions like the World Bank and the World Economic Forum.
"The results demonstrate that countries which are perceived as the
most corrupt are also those plagued by long-standing conflicts, which
have torn their governance infrastructure," the report said.
For the listing of all countries in the survey go to:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=t8HR9iGR5s9Y6bZpxEZMx1A
Romanise
> India has slightly bettered its position from 85th (2008) to
> 84 th in 2009. Pakistan has slipped: from 134th to 139th, in
> a field of 180. Koran says nothing against bribes, so it is
> halal.
Does भगवद्गीता or any other आचारसंहीता say anything about bribes that
justify bribes in India.
Read www.dmjoshi.org
> ==================================================
> SOMALIA, AFGHANISTAN MOST CORRUPT NATIONS: report
> Canada tied for 8th least corrupt nation
> Last Updated: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 | 12:05 PM ET
> Comments115Recommend52
> CBC Newshttp://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/11/17/annual-corruption-index.html
tbj....@yahoo.com
> India has slightly bettered its position from 85th (2008) to
> 84 th in 2009. Pakistan has slipped: from 134th to 139th, in
> a field of 180. Koran says nothing against bribes, so it is
> halal.
> ==================================================
> SOMALIA, AFGHANISTAN MOST CORRUPT NATIONS: report
> Canada tied for 8th least corrupt nation
> Last Updated: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 | 12:05 PM ET
> Comments115Recommend52
Transparency International (TI) is a political tool of the "west" - do
not trust it.
Nothing that comes out of the "west" is free from deception and lies.
Everything from them serves a purpose - whether it is obfuscation or
distraction or demoralisation of others.
ModerateMallu
I will admit, however, that some NGOs are not always on the level, and
often the only "agenda" is to make money, or to inflating one's public
image. It is better to appear busy than to do any real work. ;-)
Are you suggesting the corruption does not exist in India, and the
"west" is insinuating that it exists in India? The results for a country
are based on local surveys and not on "western" perceptions. Would the
results have been fair if the ratings/rankings were done by Indian
outfits that had absolutely no connection with any agency outside? If
so, what would have been a better alternate to TI to determine if
corruption exists in India?
That said, it is time to stop looking for "agendas" in all the rankings
and confront the truth - corruption is rampant in India and in every
level of society and every walk of life. To deny that is to live in some
make believe world. If corruption did not exist in India, there would be
no 1993 bombings, 26/11 massacres, nonstop insurgencies, maoists...
At the end of the day, ranks of 84 and 139 are not that far apart, and
not particularly a source of pride - bottom of the barrel is bottom of
the barrel.
tbj....@yahoo.com
TI rankings serve NO purpose other than giving the whites a "moral"
cause to feel superior to others.
TI is responsible to nobody over whom they pass judgment.
The TI ranking has no demonstrable unique objectivity.
The reason to distrust the TI is because the TI can change its
opinions (yes, they are all opinions) tomorrow and rank India at the
bottom - and if you give credibility to it today, it would be hard to
not give it credibility tomorrow, even when you know that it has acted
maliciously.
We gain nothing by believing the TI. We can lose something by
believing it today, if it acts to harm us tomorrow.
Mirza Ghalib
> On Nov 19, 7:35 pm, ModerateMallu <KalluMallu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
It is just an index, but it has a value. I guess the difference
is this: If you go to Nigeria, the immigration officials would not
let you in, unless you pay. You do not, in India.
ModerateMallu
>
> TI rankings serve NO purpose other than giving the whites a "moral"
> cause to feel superior to others.
> TI is responsible to nobody over whom they pass judgment.
> The TI ranking has no demonstrable unique objectivity.
> The reason to distrust the TI is because the TI can change its
> opinions (yes, they are all opinions) tomorrow and rank India at the
> bottom - and if you give credibility to it today, it would be hard to
> not give it credibility tomorrow, even when you know that it has acted
> maliciously.
> We gain nothing by believing the TI. We can lose something by
> believing it today, if it acts to harm us tomorrow.
Okay, let us assume that TI has some hidden "agenda" and let us
completely ignore the CPI and rankings altogether. Does that mean there
is no corruption in India? If corruption does exist, is the magnitude of
it being grossly exaggerated? Recently Romanise posted a link with a
list of scams over the last few decades. The total scammed amount was
Rs. 73 lakh crores (a mind boggling number) and TI had nothing to do
with it. Madhu Koda, an ordinary day wager, rises to become Jharkhand's
Chief Minister and one of the state's richest guys all within a decade
(or two). He accomplished this through his sheer "brilliance," right?
Not everything is a western "conspiracy." It is thinking like this that
gives rats free rein in looting the country.
tbj....@yahoo.com
The point is : What use is it for us to trust the TI?
Did we need TI to uncover the scandals like Koda's corrupt practices?
No. We did it ourselves.
Will TI rankings change anything? No.
Then why bother with lending credibility to an obscure and possibly
malicious agency like the TI?
Should we judge ourselves or should we let TI judge us?
ModerateMallu
I think hyperventilating about TI is not going to solve anything. I am
not asking you to attach any credibility to TI. All I am asking is for
an acknowledgment that big time corruption exists in India. The "not
discovered by us" attitude does not help any.
Yes, Madhu Koda was outed by India and the Indian media, which per
certain baboons, that shriek here very often, the Indian media is
completely "phoren owned" (and that too by 3m!!!). Why would anyone
trust this development too.
tbj....@yahoo.com
Of course it helps! Think about it.
> Yes, Madhu Koda was outed by India and the Indian media, which per
> certain baboons, that shriek here very often, the Indian media is
> completely "phoren owned" (and that too by 3m!!!). Why would anyone
> trust this development too.
Indian ENGLISH language media considers itself "cosmopolitan" (or more
accurately "anglopolitan" - did I just coin a new word here?) rather
than Indian. That much is true.
Romanise
True Blue Jat was unhappy because a sick Indian who displayed all he
had in front of a woman in a bye lane in UK was sent back home.
Just wonder what two so proud of Indian Honesty think of five fellows
(living in India) on http://www.transparencyindia.org/executive_com.htm
And other five on http://www.transparencyindia.org/advisory.htm ?
All peddeling western interests?
Romanise
And there are some more on http://www.transparencyindia.org/board_management.htm
Romanise
> True Blue Jat was unhappy because a sick Indian who displayed all he
> had in front of a woman in a bye lane in UK was sent back home.
> Just wonder what two so proud of Indian Honesty think of five fellows
ModerateMallu
> On Nov 21, 10:27 am, ModerateMallu <KalluMallu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> tbj.b...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> The point is : What use is it for us to trust the TI?
>>> Did we need TI to uncover the scandals like Koda's corrupt practices?
>>> No. We did it ourselves.
>>> Will TI rankings change anything? No.
>>> Then why bother with lending credibility to an obscure and possibly
>>> malicious agency like the TI?
>>> Should we judge ourselves or should we let TI judge us?
>> I think hyperventilating about TI is not going to solve anything. I am
>> not asking you to attach any credibility to TI. All I am asking is for
>> an acknowledgment that big time corruption exists in India. The "not
>> discovered by us" attitude does not help any.
>
> Of course it helps! Think about it.
>
No it does not. Period.
TI might be international, but TII is all Indian, and as Romanise points
out the advisory board (and the overall organization) consists of some
of India's finest - people of probity and integrity, and of proven
record of service to their country. Their word is not Indian enough?
They get cheap thrills running down India by pointing out its dubious
distinction of being bottom of the barrel? If TII is a "western
conspiracy," whose word about corruption is acceptable then? Or are you
saying that corruption does not exist in India at all, and hence, there
is no need for TII and no need to do anything further? Or maybe you're
saying that Indians are paragons of virtue and the envy that causes in
the west leads to a very concerted smear campaign. :-)
>> Yes, Madhu Koda was outed by India and the Indian media, which per
>> certain baboons, that shriek here very often, the Indian media is
>> completely "phoren owned" (and that too by 3m!!!). Why would anyone
>> trust this development too.
>
> Indian ENGLISH language media considers itself "cosmopolitan" (or more
> accurately "anglopolitan" - did I just coin a new word here?) rather
> than Indian. That much is true.
Anglopolitan? Yeah, that's a new word alright, but one that makes no
logical sense. :-)
I do agree with you that the English language media have begun a slow
descent into the tabloid/shock TV world. Are regional newspapers/TV any
better at fighting corruption? Was Koda outed by Jharkhandi media/TV?
More than likely the guy's shenanigans were brought to light as a part
of some political vendetta (and no, TII is not responsible for that :-))
- an ordinary street guy becoming a millionaire overnight cannot be done
without some political backing and lots of dishonesty in public
officials. I mean, the guy made a x100 cr cash deposit at a bank, and
nobody, not one person, flagged the transaction as one of interest to
tax folks. Where were the media to unearth this crap?
ModerateMallu
>
> True Blue Jat was unhappy because a sick Indian who displayed all he
> had in front of a woman in a bye lane in UK was sent back home.
> Just wonder what two so proud of Indian Honesty think of five fellows
> (living in India) on http://www.transparencyindia.org/executive_com.htm
> And other five on http://www.transparencyindia.org/advisory.htm ?
>
> All peddeling western interests?
One has to live in the comfort of the west to discover the deep-seated
envy about the paradise that is India, and the smear campaign that such
envy fuels. Guys like Fali Nariman, Anna Hazare, B G Verghese, Narayana
Murthy, Aruna Roy ... are all "stooges" of the west. :-) :-)
tbj....@yahoo.com
> Romanise wrote:
>
> > True Blue Jat was unhappy because a sick Indian who displayed all he
> > had in front of a woman in a bye lane in UK was sent back home.
> > Just wonder what two so proud of Indian Honesty think of five fellows
> > And other five onhttp://www.transparencyindia.org/advisory.htm?
>
>
> One has to live in the comfort of the west to discover the deep-seated
> envy about the paradise that is India, and the smear campaign that such
> envy fuels. Guys like Fali Nariman, Anna Hazare, B G Verghese, Narayana
> Murthy, Aruna Roy ... are all "stooges" of the west. :-) :-)
Your comparison is illogical.
Individuals acting out of their conscience can never match the
resources and the malice of organized propagandists.
tbj....@yahoo.com
It is irrelevant what the reality of TI is - but it's actions have
been solely aimed at garnering some kind of "moral" authority which
abuses the non-white world, even if in technical terms. It is an
unaccountable and obscure group whose motivations can never be
ascertained. As such, it is utterly foolish to lend it any
credibility.
What benefit has ever been gained by the "moral" rankings of the TI?
Name one.
> >> Yes, Madhu Koda was outed by India and the Indian media, which per
> >> certain baboons, that shriek here very often, the Indian media is
> >> completely "phoren owned" (and that too by 3m!!!). Why would anyone
> >> trust this development too.
>
> > Indian ENGLISH language media considers itself "cosmopolitan" (or more
> > accurately "anglopolitan" - did I just coin a new word here?) rather
> > than Indian. That much is true.
>
> Anglopolitan? Yeah, that's a new word alright, but one that makes no
> logical sense. :-)
Anglopolitan = citizen of the English speaking world (which is non-
existent as a political unit, but don't tell that to the Indian
English media. They will hate you for it).
> I do agree with you that the English language media have begun a slow
> descent into the tabloid/shock TV world. Are regional newspapers/TV any
> better at fighting corruption? Was Koda outed by Jharkhandi media/TV?
> More than likely the guy's shenanigans were brought to light as a part
> of some political vendetta (and no, TII is not responsible for that :-))
> - an ordinary street guy becoming a millionaire overnight cannot be done
> without some political backing and lots of dishonesty in public
> officials. I mean, the guy made a x100 cr cash deposit at a bank, and
> nobody, not one person, flagged the transaction as one of interest to
> tax folks. Where were the media to unearth this crap?
If Pakistanis sponsor a madrassa in India for the ostensible purpose
of "education", would you expect unbiased education from that
institute just because it is run by Indians?
TII takes its guidance from TI. Why do you think it has independent
credibility then?
What has TII done for India? Nothing, except making Indians feel bad
about things - which is always bad for the economy.
tbj....@yahoo.com
> And other five onhttp://www.transparencyindia.org/advisory.htm?
>
> All peddeling western interests?
Whether they know it or not, yes.
What good have they done for India?
Who pays their salaries?
tbj....@yahoo.com
Who pays their salaries and traveling expenses?
tbj....@yahoo.com
> On Nov 21, 8:07 am, Romanise <josh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > True Blue Jat was unhappy because a sick Indian who displayed all he
> > had in front of a woman in a bye lane in UK was sent back home.
>
Lying again? The student was jailed. For exhibitionism.
While Gere got off free after a molestation attempt.
I just can't figure out just HOW do you keep feeling righteous in your
so obviously warped thought patterns!
My condolences to you on your condition.
Romanise
> Lying again? The student was jailed.
Oh was he?
How do you think he should have been dealt with?
> For exhibitionism.
Is the kind of exhibitionism he practised in front of single woman
pedestrian on a lonely lane very common among Indians?
> While Gere got off free after a molestation attempt.
Did the victim of molestation attempt make a complaint?
ModerateMallu
Okay, so you don't like TII and what it stands for. I repeat, the people
involved in it are sincere, and have a rather distinguished record of
service (some in uniform) to the country. To me, that counts for
something. Not one of the people, either in the executive council or in
the advisory group, has been tainted.
I don't believe TII has taken an arrogant extra-constitutional position
of making and enforcing laws. It does, however, want transparency and
accountability in the India system of governance. While it is not
necessary to ascribe some sort of "moral authority" to it, the people
involved give it that implicitly. Further, the intent is not to directly
impact the system overnight, but only to increase awareness to the
magnitude of the problem that will eventually get people to interact
with their lawmakers to set things right. Such interaction is currently
nonexistent, and in the end it is the electorate that makes the change
happen.
I'll ask one last time, if there were no TII or no rankings, would it
mean corruption does not exist in India? Your argument, on TII being
some kind of western political tool to keep India down, can be turned
around. Aren't people earning a living from the west and turning a blind
eye to corruption in India actually western "stooges?" :-)
Nonsensical argument. We are talking about corruption (no matter the
size and scale of it) and not baboon nurseries. Stick to the point.
> TII takes its guidance from TI. Why do you think it has independent
> credibility then?
> What has TII done for India? Nothing, except making Indians feel bad
> about things - which is always bad for the economy.
Huh? TII has made the first sincere effort into bringing transparency
and accountability in government by building awareness. For that one
should be grateful.
As for your more serious allegation that TII folks are getting a little
payola for being western lackeys, I suggest you either download their
financial statements or write to the folks directly - their website is
very accessible to all and you have all the contact information you
need. All of the people on the advisory council are either independently
wealthy and absolutely principled (esp. Anna Hazare).
harmony
<tbj....@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:255fe8ae-0b50-4002...@g10g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
daroowalas can't relate to this after the first bottle is emptied out.
ModerateMallu
Quite right, daaroowalas cannot relate to nonsense, with or without the
assist of fermented stuff. It requires a truly fermented brain of a
baboon to come up with a "devastating" one liner like yours. Ouch, the
comment hurt bad, man. Not! Try again, baboon. However, your paralysis
neck up from eating the Rs.2/kilo government-issue rice might get in the
way.
You're quite the funny one, aren't you? Have yet to see anything
cultured or original from you except the brilliant "3m - m = 3m"
equation when you were sucking up to the Chinese in this newsgroup
(because "he who shall not be named" dines on Thai/Chainese phood?)
tbj....@yahoo.com
Goodness. You can't think straight on this one, can you?
I say "Don't trust the TI" and you fly off the handle about
everything.
Tel me again: What good does it do to trust the TI rankings? Name one.
On the other hand, it can do a lot of damage to trust a malicious
propaganda.
Oh for goodness' sake. Are you writing in your sleep or what?
I make a point about the effect and control of parent organisation
upon their franchises, and you think that is "nonsense"? Nonsense!
> > TII takes its guidance from TI. Why do you think it has independent
> > credibility then?
> > What has TII done for India? Nothing, except making Indians feel bad
> > about things - which is always bad for the economy.
>
> Huh? TII has made the first sincere effort into bringing transparency
> and accountability in government by building awareness. For that one
> should be grateful.
Oh, get out of here! WHAT evidence do you have to support your claims
here?!
You argue out of dogma, not out of reason.
> As for your more serious allegation that TII folks are getting a little
> payola for being western lackeys, I suggest you either download their
> financial statements or write to the folks directly - their website is
> very accessible to all and you have all the contact information you
> need. All of the people on the advisory council are either independently
> wealthy and absolutely principled (esp. Anna Hazare).
In other words, you don't know shit about how they are funded.
How un-surprising.
ModerateMallu
Given to a little hyperbole, are you? I flew off the handle, or did you
at the very mention of TI/TII? The survey rankings seemed to have
spooked you more than they did me. :-)
I believe that TII is transparent and does not need me to defend it.
Heck, they got all the information (including contact) on their website.
On the other hand, _you_ will have to back your (serious) accusation and
smear that TII is manipulated by the "west" and has a hidden agenda, and
survives on a western handout.
I had originally asked you to set aside the TII (TI) and simply answer
the question of whether you believed corruption exists (or not) in
India. You have completely evaded that question and keep harping on TII
being a "western propaganda tool." You make your living of the "wicked
west," don't you? I suppose it is owed you, right?
It does a world of good to trust TI rankings and work towards building
awareness about corruption. It is hoped that such awareness will help
citizens elect honorable lawmakers who will enact (and enforce) laws and
provide good governance. Not a good goal? What is your expectation of
TII? To be a government mouthpiece to proudly (and falsely) proclaim
"India Shining" and sweep dirt under the rug?
Oh, really? Let me turn that question back to you. What evidence do
_you_ have to support your claim that TII is a "western tool" or it has
"malicious" intent, or is on the make. "I said so" does not count as a
reasoned argument, either.
Asserting that India is riddled with corruption is "dogma?" Heck, if
this place was veritable paradise, how did all the bomb material get
into Bombay in 1993? Corrupt customs officials and cops, that's who.
>> As for your more serious allegation that TII folks are getting a little
>> payola for being western lackeys, I suggest you either download their
>> financial statements or write to the folks directly - their website is
>> very accessible to all and you have all the contact information you
>> need. All of the people on the advisory council are either independently
>> wealthy and absolutely principled (esp. Anna Hazare).
>
> In other words, you don't know shit about how they are funded.
>
> How un-surprising.
I suppose you know "shit" about how they are funded. Then, out with it.
Let's see how long before lawyers come looking for clarifications on
libelous statements. :-)
Funding is through memberships/contributions from all the local chapters
- yeah, lots of Indians, sick and tired of abysmal governance,
contribute to the organization. Mind you, _all_ people involved in the
executive and advisory committees and local chapters are distinguished
people with a good public service record.