Re(2): Finnish schools in Sweden
Jyrki_...@online.tietokone.fi
somebody wrote:
<The Swedish speaking minority in Finland is a large percentage of the
Finnish
<population. The Finnish speaking minority in Sweden is very small
(less than
<half a percent).
Cannot be true? There may be be some 500.000 finnish speakers
in Sweden out of population of 8.360.000.
- jyrki
Kaj Stenberg
The number 500.000 is somewhat arguable.. Many children of immigrants do
not really speak their parents language anymore. Also the fact that many
finnish immigrants (who came in the 50's and 60's) still are not fluent
in swedish seems to contradict the "fact" that swedish is always
demanded in all stages of contact with the authorities. Otherwise one
has to accept that finns really cannot learn any foreign languages.
(which might be true..?).
Finally a word about the schools. There are finnish classes in lots and
lots of schools. There are also some "private" schools which are
finnish. But in the propaganda I have seen it is newer told that these
"private schools" (the term is free schools, actually), are STATE FUNDED,
so it does not demand any special effort for those poore finns to get
their children education in their own language.
I'm myself, like my wife, are swedish speaking finns. We live in Sweden now,
where our daughter was born (15 months ago). I have serious plans to
move back home, especially so that my daughter could learn finnish. I
have nothing especially against Sweden and swedes, but it is not my home
country (and the swedes are very peculiar in many ways, as can be
expected after an extremely long period of one party getting its ideas
through even in schools). Via the news I also see that there are these
peculiar figures in Finland too. But they are my countrymates, I have to
accept them. And they don't live in areas would even consider settling in.
Kaj
Svante Wendel
=>
=>somebody wrote:
=><The Swedish speaking minority in Finland is a large percentage of the
=>Finnish
=><population. The Finnish speaking minority in Sweden is very small
=>(less than
=><half a percent).
=>
=>Cannot be true? There may be be some 500.000 finnish speakers
=>in Sweden out of population of 8.360.000.
Here we go again:
The Finnish-speaking minority in Sweden consists of the Tornedal Finns,
numbering less than 40,000 (probably around 25,000) out of a total population
of some 8.8 million. The rest of the Finnish-speakers (numbering nowhere near
500,000!) are recent immigrants, not a true minority.....
=>- jyrki
--
Svante Wendel -- Malmö, Sweden
wen...@wendel.se
http://www.lookup.com/Homepages/49999/home.html
--- "Every country has an army. Their own or someone else's" ---
Svante Wendel
=>Jyrki_...@online.tietokone.fi wrote:
=>
=>: somebody wrote:
=>: <The Swedish speaking minority in Finland is a large percentage of the
=>: Finnish
=>: <population. The Finnish speaking minority in Sweden is very small
=>: (less than
=>: <half a percent).
=>
=>: Cannot be true? There may be be some 500.000 finnish speakers
=>: in Sweden out of population of 8.360.000.
=>
=>To be completely precise the number of Finnish speakers is
=>*officially zero* in Sweden. Therefore Sweden does not recognize
=>the existence of a Finnish speaking minority officially
=>because *officially there is none*!
Well, officially there are no Swedish-speakers either.....
There are no, and AFAIK there has never been, any statistics regarding
language since the Swedish census does not, and AFAIK has never done,
register language.
Nina M K Hagn
> somebody wrote:
> <The Swedish speaking minority in Finland is a large percentage of the
> Finnish
> <population. The Finnish speaking minority in Sweden is very small
> (less than
> <half a percent).
> Cannot be true? There may be be some 500.000 finnish speakers
> in Sweden out of population of 8.360.000.
> - jyrki
This somebody was probably talking about the Finns in Tornedalen and not
the Finnish immigrants.
Nina Stenberg
Jyrki_...@online.tietokone.fi
Jarmo wrote:
<To be completely precise the number of Finnish speakers is
Do you mean that according to the statistics of Sweden people
are not classied by their languange.
- jyrki
Jyrki_...@online.tietokone.fi
<Here we go again:
<
<The Finnish-speaking minority in Sweden consists of the Tornedal Finns,
<numbering less than 40,000 (probably around 25,000) out of a total
<population of some 8.8 million. The rest of the Finnish-speakers
(numbering <nowhere near 500,000!) are recent immigrants, not a true
minority.....
So there are at least 540.000 Finnish speakers. It is 6.4 per cent of
the
population.
- jyrki
Svante Wendel
=>wen...@wendel.se,wrote
=>
=><Here we go again:
=><
=><The Finnish-speaking minority in Sweden consists of the Tornedal Finns,
=><numbering less than 40,000 (probably around 25,000) out of a total
=><population of some 8.8 million. The rest of the Finnish-speakers
=>(numbering <nowhere near 500,000!) are recent immigrants, not a true
=>minority.....
=>
=>So there are at least 540.000 Finnish speakers. It is 6.4 per cent of
=>the
=>population.
No there can't possibly be 540,000 Finnish speakers in Sweden. According to
figures in the press the number of Finnish immigrants (and their descendants)
is somewhere around 300,000. Many of those are Finland-Swedes, which means
that the number of Finnish speakers is even less than that.
And, most importantly, many of the Finnish immigrants have BY CHOICE been
assimilated in the sense that they now use Swedish instead of Finnish at
home, and don't even teach their children Finnish. Please read what Magnus
Eskermo (himself a Swede of Finnish descent) wrote some days ago!
Jarmo Ryyti
: wen...@wendel.se,wrote
: <Here we go again:
: <The Finnish-speaking minority in Sweden consists of the Tornedal Finns,
: <numbering less than 40,000 (probably around 25,000) out of a total
: <population of some 8.8 million. The rest of the Finnish-speakers
: (numbering <nowhere near 500,000!) are recent immigrants, not a true
: minority.....
: So there are at least 540.000 Finnish speakers. It is 6.4 per cent of
: the population.
And about 1 000 000 people with Finnish roots. It is like the Kurds
of Turkey,who do not exist either officially.
The representants of Finnish communities of Sweden declared themselves
a domestic minority of Sweden autumn 1992. Sweden's government had first
late the year 1995 "time to recieve" this declaration.
(I have its Finnish version).
Ombudsman of the EU in minority matters mr. Bojan Brezigar considers
Finns of Sweden being a domestic minority of Sweden.
So does The Council of Europe. So there is international recognition
existing. The only ones who are against as usually, are Sweden's
majority population whose stubborn policy causes lots of problems
not only for the Finnish speaking communities of Sweden but also
for the Finnish-Swedish relations in generally.
Sweden is responsible for the outcome, not the Finnish communities.
Popular strategy of Sweden is to say "the Finns of Sweden want
to be illitterate in their own language".
I will have within three weeks an opportunity to meet some
people from Northern-Sweden and we can discuss what can be
done. And how we could help them from Finland.
jami
--
# In 1958,The Swedish School Administration repealed directives banning #
# the speaking of Finnish language in Sweden's schools. However,some #
# municipalities maintained restrictions on Finnish language until 1968 #
#.................aga parem hilja kui mitte kunagi..................... #
Svante Wendel
[snip]
=>: =>To be completely precise the number of Finnish speakers is
=>: =>*officially zero* in Sweden. Therefore Sweden does not recognize
=>: =>the existence of a Finnish speaking minority officially
=>: =>because *officially there is none*!
=>
=>: Well, officially there are no Swedish-speakers either.....
=>
=>: There are no, and AFAIK there has never been, any statistics regarding
=>: language since the Swedish census does not, and AFAIK has never done,
=>: register language.
=>
=>Not true. Sweden ceased to register the language of her citizens
=>1930 as a part of Sweden's policy of "one nation-one language".
Prove it. I don't take your word for anything anymore.....
=>Now the Finnish communities collect themselves information
=>about the Finns of Sweden. The goal is to establish a Finnish
=>parlament in Sweden. Therefore those who register themselves
A Finnish "Parliament" in Sweden.... ROTFLMAO
I guess you believe that the moon is made of cheese too....
=>as Finns of Sweden can elect in own democratic representation.
=>
=>In the municipal elections of this year there will be lists
=>of Finnish political movements in several municipalities
=>of Sweden.
And then I guess all four voters will be invited to the party afterwards.....
Jarmo Ryyti
: Den 4 Jan 1996 07:46:57 GMT skrev ry...@tukki.jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) :
: =>Jyrki_...@online.tietokone.fi wrote:
: =>
: =>: somebody wrote:
: =>: <The Swedish speaking minority in Finland is a large percentage of the
: =>: Finnish
: =>: <population. The Finnish speaking minority in Sweden is very small
: =>: (less than
: =>: <half a percent).
: =>
: =>: Cannot be true? There may be be some 500.000 finnish speakers
: =>: in Sweden out of population of 8.360.000.
: =>
: =>To be completely precise the number of Finnish speakers is
: =>*officially zero* in Sweden. Therefore Sweden does not recognize
: =>the existence of a Finnish speaking minority officially
: =>because *officially there is none*!
: Well, officially there are no Swedish-speakers either.....
: There are no, and AFAIK there has never been, any statistics regarding
: language since the Swedish census does not, and AFAIK has never done,
: register language.
Not true. Sweden ceased to register the language of her citizens
1930 as a part of Sweden's policy of "one nation-one language".
Now the Finnish communities collect themselves information
about the Finns of Sweden. The goal is to establish a Finnish
parlament in Sweden. Therefore those who register themselves
as Finns of Sweden can elect in own democratic representation.
In the municipal elections of this year there will be lists
of Finnish political movements in several municipalities
of Sweden.
Jarmo Ryyti
: Jarmo wrote:
: <To be completely precise the number of Finnish speakers is
: <*officially zero* in Sweden. Therefore Sweden does not recognize
: <the existence of a Finnish speaking minority officially
: <because *officially there is none*!
: Do you mean that according to the statistics of Sweden people
: are not classied by their languange.
Despite the demands of the the representants of the Finnish
communities Swedish authorities does not want to give the exact
number of Finnish speaking population in Sweden.
It was needed for planning for instance school education for
the Finnish speaking kids. The refusal is directed against
the interests of Finnish speaking community because the authorities
can deny the existence of the Finnish speaking Swedes
when there is no data about them.
jami
Svante Wendel
[snip]
=>The representants of Finnish communities of Sweden declared themselves
=>a domestic minority of Sweden autumn 1992. Sweden's government had first
=>late the year 1995 "time to recieve" this declaration.
=>(I have its Finnish version).
Since when can immigrants declare themselves a "domestic minority" anywhere?
[snip]
Bj|rn Palmen,Helsingfors
wen...@wendel.se (Svante Wendel) skriver:
=> Now the Finnish communities collect themselves information
=> about the Finns of Sweden. The goal is to establish a Finnish
=> parlament in Sweden. Therefore those who register themselves ...
= A Finnish "Parliament" in Sweden.... ROTFLMAO
Inte alls en sa tokig ide som du tror, Svante.
Svenskarna i Finland har lange haft sitt eget parlament:
Svenska Finlands folkting.
De som lider mest av att inte fa ens den mest nodvandiga servicen
pa sitt eget sprak ar aldringarna och barnen. Det galler i synnerhet
halsovard och forskola. Det ar _mycket_ hart att inte kunna gora
sig forstadd nar man har ont nanstans eller maste fa tag pa sin pappa,
till exempel. Har kan ett parlament hjalpa dem som har svart genom
att se till att det finns sprakkunnig personal dar den behovs.
Under tiden ligger Svante "Rolling On The Floor Laughing, Mindless And
Old-fashioned"?
Bjorn Palmen
Roland Johansson
>To be completely precise the number of Finnish speakers is
>*officially zero* in Sweden. Therefore Sweden does not recognize
>the existence of a Finnish speaking minority officially
>because *officially there is none*!
Sweden does not keep official statistic over people who speaks other
languages than Swedish.
It is ridiculous to use this as an argument.
With your logic of discussion, no other languages exists either.
>When they officially do not exist there is *officially no
>problems* with the human rights of the Finnish speaking Swedes.
What is the "Human rights problem"?
Finnish speakers are welcome to speak Finnish werever, and whenever
they want to, and in contacts with authorities they are entitled to an
official and trained interpretor, if they need one.
What I start to suspect, is that you want that all Swedes should learn
Finnish, so interpretors where not needed...is that your goal?
>How could non-existent creatures have problems?
>It is logically not possible. I mean according to
>the Swedish logic.
>Sweden is officially interested in the human rights elsewhere
>because it is official policy of Sweden.
>If the existence of Finnish speaking Swedes is debated
>in public there is used a term "home-language" what means
>that *officially* non-existent Finnish speking community of
>Sweden is *illiterate in their own mother-tongue*.
The term Hemspråk, was created for use in official language, since the
older term Modersmål, was considered sexist, and "hemspråk" is used
about all languages spoken in the home, regardless if it is spoken by
the mother or the father. It means "the language spoken in the home".
It has nothing to do with existence or non-existence of a minority.
>The official popular Swedish (also often seen in scn)
>explanation for the aforementioned phenomena is that
>the Finnish speaking Swedes have themselves chosen illiteracy
>in own mother-tongue without active measures of the majority
>society.
>Because according to the Swedish propaganda the Finnish
>speakig community of Sweden has *itself chosen* to be
>illiterate in own mother-tongue the state of Sweden
>shall support the goal.
>Therefore everything is in order according to the Swedish
>logic.
All those who wants it, are entitled to limited teaching in their
"home-language", but when it comes to Finnish, Turkish and some other
"large" languages, there are classes where the main part, or all of
the teaching is done in that language.
It is the choice of the parents to send their children to these
classes.
Sweden has no official statistics over the total Finnish (or any other
language for that matter) speakers, but you could get a clue by
studying the official statistical abstract of Sweden, issued every
year. The latest issue I could get my hands on was 1991.
In the year 1990 the total amount of pupils in Swedish compulsory
schools, year 1-9, where 894.558
Out of these 26.115 had chosen to follow either complete education, or
parttime, in Finnish language.
This was a decrease from the 37.067 pupils in the 1983 statistics.
In the upper secondary school (gymnasium) 4.556 pupils out of a total
of 289.584 participated in courses or classes held in Finnish
language.
These pupils where spread across the entire country.
From these numbers, compared to your numbers on how large the Finnish
minority is, in the light of the fact that possibilities are present,
the conclusion is that any "iliteracy" is selfchosen.
Reasons could be many, but I believe the main one being that Swedish
is still the language spoken by most people in this country, and in
order to manage on your own, whithout interpretors, you must master
it, and in practical life an education in Swedish is more relevant.
Stop telling that Swedes are idiots and victims of ill-spirited
propaganda, and tell us what it is you want.
/Roland
Roland Johansson Mail: fl...@bahnhof.se
c/o Falkner Web: http://www.bahnhof.se/~floyd/
Saetra torg 12
S-127 38 Skaerholmen Phone: +46-8-88 56 11
Sweden
Scandinavian Genealogy page: http://www.bahnhof.se/~floyd/scandgen/
Bj|rn Palmen,Helsingfors
fl...@bahnhof.se (Roland Johansson) writes:
>In the year 1990 the total amount of pupils in Swedish compulsory
>schools, year 1-9, where 894.558
>Out of these 26.115 had chosen to follow either complete education, or
>parttime, in Finnish language.
>This was a decrease from the 37.067 pupils in the 1983 statistics.
>In the upper secondary school (gymnasium) 4.556 pupils out of a total
>of 289.584 participated in courses or classes held in Finnish language.
>These pupils were spread across the entire country.
>From these numbers, compared to your numbers on how large the Finnish
>minority is, in the light of the fact that possibilities are present,
>the conclusion is that any "illiteracy" is selfchosen.
That is not the only possible conclusion. Rather one would think that
Finnish still has such a low status that pupils feel this and are reluctant
to admit that they somehow are not "real" Swedes. My conclusion is that
there is something very sick in the Swedish system when people do not
dare to admit that their own mother tongue isn't Swedish.
Also, they should be entitled to speak their language everywhere, not
just in their homes as "homespeak". The word "hemsprak" should be
abandoned as a linguistically racist expression. There is nothing
"sexist" in the word mother tongue, modersmal.
Bjorn
Svante Wendel
Palmen,Helsingfors) :
=>
=>wen...@wendel.se (Svante Wendel) skriver:
=>
=>=> Now the Finnish communities collect themselves information
=>=> about the Finns of Sweden. The goal is to establish a Finnish
=>=> parlament in Sweden. Therefore those who register themselves ...
=>
=>= A Finnish "Parliament" in Sweden.... ROTFLMAO
=>
=>Inte alls en sa tokig ide som du tror, Svante.
=>
=>Svenskarna i Finland har lange haft sitt eget parlament:
=>Svenska Finlands folkting.
=>
=>De som lider mest av att inte fa ens den mest nodvandiga servicen
=>pa sitt eget sprak ar aldringarna och barnen. Det galler i synnerhet
=>halsovard och forskola. Det ar _mycket_ hart att inte kunna gora
=>sig forstadd nar man har ont nanstans eller maste fa tag pa sin pappa,
=>till exempel. Har kan ett parlament hjalpa dem som har svart genom
=>att se till att det finns sprakkunnig personal dar den behovs.
Det finns språkkunnig personal där det behövs. Alla som inte har svenska som
modersmål har rätt till tolk i alla kontakter med myndigheter, sjukvård,
rättsväsen etc. Och det fungerar väl dessutom. Jag kan inte se på vilket sätt
ett "Finskt Folkting" skulle kunna påverka det.
Det finns redan dagis på ur vår synpunkt "främmande språk". Det finns få
finnar i Malmö men vi har till exempel kinesiskt, arabiskt och turkiskt dagis
här. Kommunalt dagis, dessutom. Med personal som kan de språken och med all
service på språket i fråga. Hur det är med aldringsvård/pensionärshem vet jag
inte men jag kan tänka mig att det är något som måste ordnas inom gruppen och
av gruppen själva. Som exempelvis gamla svenska invandrare i USA ordnat egna
ålderdomshem.....
Finska föreningar i Sverige har full frihet att sätta upp ett eget Folkting
om de så önskar. De kommer dock aldrig att få något representativt organ som
har någon makt överhuvudtaget.....
Mina frågor i tidigare inlägg i den här gruppen om vad ett Finskt Folkting
skulle syssla med förblev obesvarade. Jag har inte heller fått veta om man
hade tänkt sig att ha någon beslutsrätt i vissa frågor, eller om man bara
skulle vara rådgivande.
Jag undrar också vilka som skulle få rösta. Vilka skulle få ställa upp som
kandidater? Vilket språk skulle förhandlingarna föras på, med tanke på att
majoriteten av de personer som Jarmo hävdar har finsk bakgrund i Sverige inte
tycks kunna någon finska.....
Johan Olofsson
07 Jan 96 00:50, Björn Palmen,Helsingfors wrote to All:
BH> Rather one would think that Finnish still has such a low status that
BH> pupils feel this and are reluctant to admit that they somehow are not
BH> "real" Swedes. My conclusion is that there is something very sick in
BH> the Swedish system when people do not dare to admit that their own
BH> mother tongue isn't Swedish.
And what change do you propose?
Johan
Jarmo Ryyti
: Johan Olofsson (johan.o...@magnus.ct.se) wrote:
: > 07 Jan 96 00:50, Björn Palmen,Helsingfors wrote to All:
: What about changing the atmosphere of diskrimination and establish
: a Finnish university in Stockholm. And give for those, who "somehow
: are not reluctant to admit, that they are not "real" Swedes" a possibility
: to show it. What is wrong with this idea?
About the athmosphere in Sweden and about the unversities.
In the beginning of the previous year The Institute of Finnish
Language asked the administration of the University of
Stockholm to repeal the ban to defend the dissertion in Finnish
at the university of Stockholm.
In all other language institutions the dissertions are permitted
to be defended with the language the institution is making
research.
"Finnish school" , "Finnish education" causes hostile reactions
in Sweden,not "English school", "German school","French school".
You can confirm the aforementioned issue:
Finska Institutionen
Stockholms universitet
106 91 Stockholm
phone: -08-16 23 59
You can ask: Birger Winsa, Erling Wande, Helge Niska,Jarmo Lainio.
Unlike the Swedish netters who never give any sources for their
"infomation" there is *again* one source for those who seek
information about extraordinary Swedish culture.
jami
--
# In 1958,The Swedish School Administration repealed directives banning #
# the speaking of Finnish language in Sweden's schools. However,some #
# municipalities maintained restrictions on Finnish language until 1968 #
Jorma Kypp|
> 07 Jan 96 00:50, Björn Palmen,Helsingfors wrote to All:
> BH> Rather one would think that Finnish still has such a low status that
> BH> pupils feel this and are reluctant to admit that they somehow are not
> BH> "real" Swedes. My conclusion is that there is something very sick in
> BH> the Swedish system when people do not dare to admit that their own
> BH> mother tongue isn't Swedish.
> And what change do you propose?
What about changing the atmosphere of diskrimination and establish
a Finnish university in Stockholm. And give for those, who "somehow
are not reluctant to admit, that they are not "real" Swedes" a possibility
to show it. What is wrong with this idea?
The number of minorities is relatively same in Sweden and Finland, who
has Swedish universities.
Jorma Kypp|
Laukaa
Finland
jo...@jytko.jyu.fi
Johan Olofsson
07 Jan 96 00:50, Björn Palmen,Helsingfors wrote to All:
BH> Also, they should be entitled to speak their language everywhere, not
BH> just in their homes as "homespeak".
???
And who hinders people to speak whatever language they wish?
BH> The word "hemsprak" should be
BH> abandoned as a linguistically racist expression.
"Racist" - ???
You must know that a "hemspråk" doesn't have to be the mother tongue of the
pupil, but rather any language used by _any_ of the parents or step-parents.
It is not the same as mother tongue.
The word "hemspråk" is purely a bureaucratic term referring to a language other
than Swedish, since they give the pupil a _right_ to receive education. You do
not have to use it at all. You don't live here.
The readers of this group do not have the power to change the terms used in
legal and governmental Swedish.
At this time it seems that all information in this thread are given, and the
old misconceptions pop up again.
To refresh the readers mind:
1/ The native minority of Finns in Sweden lives at the border to Finland.
2/ This minority is less than 0.5 % of Swedens population.
3/ The last 60 years many Finns have moved from Finland to Sweden.
4/ Those immigrants are scattered in all urban areas.
5/ Some of the Finns returned to Finland again.
6/ Several Finland-Swedes moved to Sweden during the same time.
7/ Some of them returned to Finland again.
8/ Migration statistics count Finland-Finns and Finland-Swedes together.
9/ About 15-20% of the population in Sweden are said to be "immigrants".
10/ It's hard to estimate the number of 2:nd and 3:rd generation immigrants.
11/ The share of immigrants from Finland is estimated to about 5%.
12/ Finland-Finns and Finland-Swedes are counted together
13/ Pre-schools are heavily subsidized.
14/ Municipal primary schools and secondary schools are without cost.
15/ About 80% of the fundings follow the pupil if he chooses a private school.
16/ Immigrants are not hindered to start private schools.
17/ Nothing but lacking interest hinders establishment of all-Finnish schools.
18/ Private schools are not forced to use swedish as educational language.
19/ In some municipalities Finnish is used as educational language.
20/ Determining is the number of interested pupils and competent teachers.
21/ Regardless: pupils have a right to be educated in a "hemspråk."
22/ A hemspråk is a language that is the mother tongue of any parent.
The Finnish debaters in this newsgroups like to make fools of themselves by
repeating the same misinformation again and again.
They seem not to understand the difference between native minorities, refugees
and economical immigrants.
That is (of course) understandable, since Finland has no immigrants but an
important little native minority. What a pity they havn't discovered that the
reality is different here.
Johan
Magnus Itland
>Now the Finnish communities collect themselves information
>about the Finns of Sweden. The goal is to establish a Finnish
>parlament in Sweden. Therefore those who register themselves
>as Finns of Sweden can elect in own democratic representation.
Not to be terribly rude, but why have a Finnish parliament in
Sweden when there already exists a nice Finnish parliament
in Suomi/Finland?
Can't remembered having heard anything parallell to this before.
There is a Sami parliament in Norway, but then again the Sami people
have no nation-state of their own (as of yet) and quite a large part
of the population live within Norway's borders.
But I would be surprised to find a Pakistani or Vietnamese parliament
in Norway, for instance. I suppose generally one parliament in each
country is the accepted way of things.
--
itl...@sn.no The One and Only Magnus Itland
'Life is not only short, but also very thin'
Bj|rn Palmen,Helsingfors
johan.o...@magnus.ct.se (Johan Olofsson) skriver:
BP> Rather one would think that Finnish still has such a low status that
BP> pupils feel this and are reluctant to admit that they somehow are not
BP> "real" Swedes. My conclusion is that there is something very sick in
BP> the Swedish system when people do not dare to admit that their own
BP> mother tongue isn't Swedish.
> And what change do you propose?
Make Finnish one of the Official Languages of Sweden, Swedish and Saami
being the other two Official Languages.
Let the invandrarminister vandra ut and put in a Minister for Finnish
Education instead.
Björn
Jyrki_...@online.tietokone.fi
wen...@wendel.se,wrote
<You still don't seem to understand in spite of all the posts informing
you
<about the availability of education in Finnish for those Finns who so
<wish.....
Is the Swedish education system for Finnish speakers as extensive
as the Finnish educaton system is for Swedish speakers.
<The reason why so comparatively few children from Finnish immigrant
families
<in Sweden attend Finnish-language schools/classes is that their
parents BY
<CHOICE send them to Swedish-language schools instead......
Is there any real alternative to choose?
- jyrki
Jarmo Puntanen
Svante Wendel <wen...@wendel.se> wrote:
>
>And, most importantly, many of the Finnish immigrants have BY CHOICE been
>assimilated in the sense that they now use Swedish instead of Finnish at
>home, and don't even teach their children Finnish. Please read what Magnus
>Eskermo (himself a Swede of Finnish descent) wrote some days ago!
'By choice' is in my opinion not the correct phrase here. I'd use
it only when there are two or more choices between languages of EQUAL
prestige, as is the case in some multi-lingual societies. Finnish
was -- and is -- evidently a low-prestige "workers' language" Sweden,
a stigma their offspring want to do away with as soon as possible.
I do not see the relative loss of Finnish-speakers in Sweden as a
sign of linguistic liberalism Svante seems to refer to, but
something quite the opposite.
--
Jarmo Puntanen
ccj...@uta.fi ccj...@mailhost.great.fi (liiketoimet/business)
@ Irjalankatu 54 D 22 33560 TRE & int + 358 +(9)31-3564242
Johan Olofsson
it could be enlightening.
08 Jan 96 09:52, Jarmo Ryyti wrote to All:
JR> : What about changing the atmosphere of discrimination and establish
JR> : a Finnish university in Stockholm.
JR> In the beginning of the previous year The Institute of Finnish
JR> Language asked the administration of the University of
JR> Stockholm to repeal the ban to defend the dissertation in Finnish
JR> at the university of Stockholm.
JR> In all other language institutions the dissertations are permitted
JR> to be defended with the language the institution is making
JR> research.
JR> You can confirm the aforementioned issue:
JR> Finska Institutionen
JR> Stockholms universitet
JR> You can ask: Birger Winsa, Erling Wande, Helge Niska,Jarmo Lainio.
Johan
Per-Arne Sandegren
[...]
>to admit that they somehow are not "real" Swedes. My conclusion is that
>there is something very sick in the Swedish system when people do not
>dare to admit that their own mother tongue isn't Swedish.
>
>Also, they should be entitled to speak their language everywhere, not
>just in their homes as "homespeak".
They are, they do and they are allowed to.
>The word "hemsprak" should be
>abandoned as a linguistically racist expression. There is nothing
>"sexist" in the word mother tongue, modersmal.
Well, start writing poems and books (in Swedish) and you might get elected
to "Svenska Akademien" later in your little life and join "the eighteen"
who determine what words are "official" in Sweden.
Who are you to judge Swedish wording! YSF!
>Bjorn
>
-- /pa
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Per-Arne Sandegren | "World war III can be averted by adherence
| to a strictly enforced dress code"
|
Stockholm | era.e...@memo.ericsson.se (text only)
SWEDEN | era...@era-t.ericsson.se
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Per-Arne Sandegren
>
>What about changing the atmosphere of diskrimination and establish
>a Finnish university in Stockholm. And give for those, who "somehow
>are not reluctant to admit, that they are not "real" Swedes" a
>possibility to show it. What is wrong with this idea?
You start in your own yard and found a university for your 17 vietnamese
refugees. Then you may speak.
>The number of minorities is relatively same in Sweden and Finland, who
>has Swedish universities.
Yes, we both have two minorities. Dont know about Finland but Sweden has
around 10.000 Samis and 20.000 tornedalsfinnar.
>Jorma Kypp|
-- /pa
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Per-Arne Sandegren | "Bajen från Sö-öder"
Timo Kukkonen
(text klippat bort)
>service på språket i fråga. Hur det är med aldringsvård/pensionärshem vet jag
>inte men jag kan tänka mig att det är något som måste ordnas inom gruppen och
>av gruppen själva. Som exempelvis gamla svenska invandrare i USA ordnat egna
>ålderdomshem.....
Det är inte bra ide att jämföra USA och Sverige. Kommunala åldershem i USA?
Kanske dom finns men jag tror inte att inte på samma skala som i Sverige eller
Finland.
Varför skulle man just i det här sammanhanget ta exempel från USA som vanligen
kritiseras as svenskar? Jag tror inte att svenskar och finnar i USA i regel har
någon kommunal ålderhem alls (i likhet med andra invånare).
Timo Kukkonen
Johan Olofsson
08 Jan 96 08:56, Jorma Kyppö wrote to Johan Olofsson:
JK> What about changing the atmosphere of discrimination and establish
JK> a Finnish university in Stockholm.
JK> The number of minorities is relatively same in Sweden and Finland, who
JK> has Swedish universities.
Here we go again!
The size of the native Finnish majority in Sweden is somewhere between 25'000
and 40'000 people.
Correct me if I am wrong! I've all the time believed that the size of the
native Swedish minority in Finland is about ten times bigger.
The situation in Finland seems to differ very much from the situation in
Sweden. How big is the part of the population in Finland which have immigrated
after 1950?
07 Jan 96 21:57, Jorma Kyppö wrote to Johan Olofsson:
>> The existence of some 200'000-400'000 immigrants from Finland
>> (arrived this century) is not ignored.
>> Many of them were speaking Swedish before their arrival.
JK> Certainly, because *every* Finn *must* study Swedish many
JK> years in the school obligatory. But the studied language
JK> never beats your mother language if you want to get a good
JK> level of education.
Dear Jorma!
I repeat what's been written several times:
Of the immigrants from Finland, many were speaking Swedish as their mother
language.
Besides: I know personally Finns who immigrated during the 50:ies and the
60:ies, and who argue that they came from parts of Finland where no education
in Swedish were given in school. My personal sources give the impression that
you are wrong.
JK> My sources (encyclopedias) tell that at least 200 000 (pure Finns)
JK> already have Swedish citizenship.
Mine too!
But:
There is a huge difference from 200'000 to 500'000.
My question was if any sources support Jyrki Nuotios statement that 500'000 of
Swedens population should have Finnish as their mother language.
I believe you have given sort of an answer.
Jyrkis figures are fantacies.
Johan
j...@magnus.ct.se
Magnus Selham
|> To be completely precise the number of Finnish speakers is
|> *officially zero* in Sweden. Therefore Sweden does not recognize
|> the existence of a Finnish speaking minority officially
|> because *officially there is none*!
|>
In Sweden there is no registration of mother-tounge. Therefore
there is no "official" minority language. There is more than
a slight difference between this fact and your false statement that
Sweden does not recognize minorities.
Magnus
Johan Olofsson
08 Jan 96 21:10, Jyrki_Nuotio wrote:
JN> <You still don't seem to understand in spite of all the posts
JN> informing you <about the availability of education in Finnish for
JN> those Finns who so <wish.....
JN> Is the Swedish education system for Finnish speakers as extensive
JN> as the Finnish educaton system is for Swedish speakers.
No, it's not.
The question is: Is it sufficient?
Which needs should be fulfilled?
JN> <The reason why so comparatively few children from Finnish immigrant
JN> families
JN> <in Sweden attend Finnish-language schools/classes is that their
JN> parents BY
JN> <CHOICE send them to Swedish-language schools instead......
JN> Is there any real alternative to choose?
Yes, the choice is between attending Finnish classes or not attending Finnish
classes.
What do you mean by "real" ?
Johan
Jarmo Ryyti
: johan.o...@magnus.ct.se (Johan Olofsson) skriver:
: BP> Rather one would think that Finnish still has such a low status that
: BP> pupils feel this and are reluctant to admit that they somehow are not
: BP> "real" Swedes. My conclusion is that there is something very sick in
: BP> the Swedish system when people do not dare to admit that their own
: BP> mother tongue isn't Swedish.
: > And what change do you propose?
: Make Finnish one of the Official Languages of Sweden, Swedish and Saami
: being the other two Official Languages.
Could Sweden be once as tolerant nation as Finland?
Jyrki_...@online.tietokone.fi
wen...@wendel.se,wrote
<Yes, it is very stupid to write like that, because if all EU-languages
should
<be equal it would mean that all the countries of the European Union
should
<have all the official languages of that Union (12 I believe) declared
as
<official languages, with official documents in all member states
available in
<all 12 languages, with schools in all 12 languages and so on.
<
<It is worse than stupid, in fact, it is incredibly stupid.....
If there is a substantial language minority in a member state speaking
any one of those official languages there should also be schools for
those
minorities.
wen...@wendel.se,wrote
<Now you show me how many schools in Finland that use English, French,
German,
<Spanish, Italian, Greek, Portuguese, Dutch, Danish or Norwegian as
their
<teaching language.....
There is a substantial Swedish language minority that has its own
schools.
Alas there no substantial Danish or Norwegian minorities but if there
were they would deserve education in their own language.
- jyrki
Svante Wendel
=>Bj|rn Palmen,Helsingfors (bj...@mail.freenet.hut.fi) wrote:
=>
=>: johan.o...@magnus.ct.se (Johan Olofsson) skriver:
=>
=>: BP> Rather one would think that Finnish still has such a low status that
=>: BP> pupils feel this and are reluctant to admit that they somehow are not
=>: BP> "real" Swedes. My conclusion is that there is something very sick in
=>: BP> the Swedish system when people do not dare to admit that their own
=>: BP> mother tongue isn't Swedish.
=>
=>: > And what change do you propose?
=>
=>: Make Finnish one of the Official Languages of Sweden, Swedish and Saami
=>: being the other two Official Languages.
=>
=>Could Sweden be once as tolerant nation as Finland?
Judging from many things such as the number of immigrants that we
accept Sweden is and has always been more tolerant than Finland.....
--
Svante Wendel -- Malmö, Sweden
wen...@wendel.se
http://205.226.64.152/Homepages/49999/home.html
Svante Wendel
=>Magnus Selham (sel...@mowitz.pdc.kth.se) wrote:
=>
=>: In article <4cg0lh$q...@mordred.cc.jyu.fi>, ry...@tukki.jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
=>
=>: |> To be completely precise the number of Finnish speakers is
=>: |> *officially zero* in Sweden. Therefore Sweden does not recognize
=>: |> the existence of a Finnish speaking minority officially
=>: |> because *officially there is none*!
=>: |>
=>
=>: In Sweden there is no registration of mother-tounge.
=>
=>There is now a work group whose task is to prepare a proposal
=>how the Finns of Sweden could start a register of their own.
=>The register is needed for the Sweden's Finnish Parlament
=>when organizing the elections.
Don't call it "paliament", Jarmo, it sounds so pretentious......
Call it "Sverigefinska Folktinget" if you wish, but not "parliament".
Any group or organization can form an assembly of some kind, and
discuss whatever they wish, but that doesn't make it a parliament.
There is only one parliament in Sweden, and that is "Sveriges
Riksdag". Elected by the citizens of Sweden, working for the people of
Sweden. It has always been that way, and it will always be that
way.... And nothing you do or say can change that.
[snip]
Johan Olofsson
09 Jan 96 11:26, Per-Arne Sandegren wrote to Björn Palmén:
PS> Well, start writing poems and books (in Swedish) and you might get
PS> elected to "Svenska Akademien" later in your little life and join "the
PS> eighteen" who determine what words are "official" in Sweden.
PS> Who are you to judge Swedish wording! YSF!
Buuu!
Utvissling!
Per-Arne, Who are you to judge a Swede?
Swedish is of course the mother tongue of Björn, and actually not only his
working language but also the result of his work (or has at least been).
I should have been _much_ more careful about judging people, I think.
Johan
Johan Olofsson
09 Jan 96 01:10, Björn Palmen,Helsingfors wrote to All:
BP>> Rather one would think that Finnish still has such a low status
BP>> that pupils feel this and are reluctant to admit that they somehow
BP>> are not "real" Swedes. My conclusion is that there is something
BP>> very sick in the Swedish system when people do not dare to admit
BP>> that their own mother tongue isn't Swedish.
>> And what change do you propose?
BH> Make Finnish one of the Official Languages of Sweden, Swedish and
BH> Saami being the other two Official Languages.
(WHICH of the Sami language, and which finnish language? The standardized
Finland-Finnish or the local Tornedalen-Finnish of the native minority?)
One thing is to _declare_ languages to be "official languages" but it all
depends on what this should lead to in practice. For us Sweden-Swedes, I'm
afraid you have to explain more carefully what effect it would have to declare
languages to be "official." I don't believe any Sweden-Swede to have any clear
ideas about what follows a declaration of official languages.
Will suddenly all children have to study all official languages?
BH> Let the invandrarminister vandra ut and put in a Minister for Finnish
BH> Education instead.
And which minister should be responsible for the question related to
immigration and immigrants?
Johan
Björn Vennström
Ryyti) wrote:
> In the beginning of the previous year The Institute of Finnish
> Language asked the administration of the University of
> Stockholm to repeal the ban to defend the dissertion in Finnish
> at the university of Stockholm.
>
> In all other language institutions the dissertions are permitted
> to be defended with the language the institution is making
> research.
Oh Jarmo, what a complete idiot you are! Do you *really* believe that
there was a specific ban on publishing this thesis in Finnish, just
because some governmental body wanted to suppress the Finnish language? If
this is your belief, then you are naive beyond reason.
Academia contains a lot of odd regulations (like this one) from historical
ages. The odd ones get weeded out when somebody finds that they obstruct
progress. For X's sake, don't blame the goverment or any other similar
body; blame the Finnish institution at Stockholm University that failed to
get rid of this kind of old garbage long ago.
Bjorn
Svante Wendel
=>Svante Wendel (wen...@wendel.se) wrote:
[snip]
=>: =>There is now a work group whose task is to prepare a proposal
=>: =>how the Finns of Sweden could start a register of their own.
=>: =>The register is needed for the Sweden's Finnish Parlament
=>: =>when organizing the elections.
=>
=>: Don't call it "parliament", Jarmo, it sounds so pretentious......
=>: Call it "Sverigefinska Folktinget" if you wish, but not "parliament".
=>
=>Does that belong to the departement of "Nordic words in English"?
=>I mean what is Folktinget in English? Folktinget?
The English word would be "assembly". I forgot that you know very
little besides Finnish.....
=>: Any group or organization can form an assembly of some kind, and
=>: discuss whatever they wish, but that doesn't make it a parliament.
=>
=>I know the Swedish citizens have organized an assembly called
=>Sveriges Riksdag and no one is against it. Not even me.
=>
=>: There is only one parliament in Sweden, and that is "Sveriges
=>: Riksdag".
=>
=>What is Folktinget in English?
See above.
=>: Elected by the citizens of Sweden, working for the people of
=>: Sweden.
=>
=>So will be Sweden's Finnish parlament work too. The right to
=>vote has the citizens of Sweden who consider themself Finns
=>of Sweden.
According to the Swedish constitution all power comes from the people,
that is all the power comes from "Sveriges Riksdag", elected by the
people of Sweden. The Riksdag can entrust other bodies with some
power, but no organization or assembly can have any kind of power
unless it is given to them by the Riksdag/Parliament.....
In other words unless the Swedish Parliament gives the "Finnish
Parliament in Sweden" as you put it some powers that Finnish
"parliament" is a joke......
So could you please inform us all what said "Finnish Parliament in
Sweden" is supposed to do, and what plans they have for themselves
regarding their powers?
=>There is a work-group preparing the rules. Have the Swedish
=>media not told about it to the Swedish audience?
No. Not a word. But we're only Swedes. After all unless we have
atleast one grandparent of Finnish descent we obviously don't
count....
=>In many other countries similar democratical movements
=>work for a larger and better democracy. Swedish media
=>is used to report about them. Why not about Sweden's
=>own Finnish Parlament? Any idea?
The democracy in Sweden is alive and kicking as it is, thank you.....
=>: It has always been that way, and it will always be that
=>: way.... And nothing you do or say can change that.
=>
=>Do you mean that Sweden blocked The Finns of Sweden
=>to organize themselves under the Finnish Parlament
=>of Sweden?
For some reason I doubt that the Swedish Riksdag is planning to hand
over some of its powers to the immigrant organizations, yes....
Henrik Ernoe
..
>
>There is a substantial Swedish language minority that has its own
>schools.
>Alas there no substantial Danish or Norwegian minorities but if there
>were they would deserve education in their own language.
Jyrki, what is a "substantial" minority?. I would not be
supprised if there would be sufficient Danish/Norwegian
speakers in say Helsinki, that they could fill up a school
with Danish/Norwegian pupils. Would that, in your view, be
a substantial minority?.
henrik erno
Jarmo Ryyti
: Den 10 Jan 1996 13:14:53 GMT skrev ry...@tukki.jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) :
: =>Magnus Selham (sel...@mowitz.pdc.kth.se) wrote:
: =>
: =>: In article <4cg0lh$q...@mordred.cc.jyu.fi>, ry...@tukki.jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
: =>
: =>: |> To be completely precise the number of Finnish speakers is
: =>: |> *officially zero* in Sweden. Therefore Sweden does not recognize
: =>: |> the existence of a Finnish speaking minority officially
: =>: |> because *officially there is none*!
: =>: In Sweden there is no registration of mother-tounge.
: =>
: =>There is now a work group whose task is to prepare a proposal
: =>how the Finns of Sweden could start a register of their own.
: =>The register is needed for the Sweden's Finnish Parlament
: =>when organizing the elections.
: Don't call it "parliament", Jarmo, it sounds so pretentious......
: Call it "Sverigefinska Folktinget" if you wish, but not "parliament".
Does that belong to the departement of "Nordic words in English"?
I mean what is Folktinget in English? Folktinget?
: Any group or organization can form an assembly of some kind, and
: discuss whatever they wish, but that doesn't make it a parliament.
I know the Swedish citizens have organized an assembly called
Sveriges Riksdag and no one is against it. Not even me.
: There is only one parliament in Sweden, and that is "Sveriges
: Riksdag".
What is Folktinget in English?
: Elected by the citizens of Sweden, working for the people of
: Sweden.
So will be Sweden's Finnish parlament work too. The right to
vote has the citizens of Sweden who consider themself Finns
of Sweden.
There is a work-group preparing the rules. Have the Swedish
media not told about it to the Swedish audience?
In many other countries similar democratical movements
work for a larger and better democracy. Swedish media
is used to report about them. Why not about Sweden's
own Finnish Parlament? Any idea?
: It has always been that way, and it will always be that
: way.... And nothing you do or say can change that.
Do you mean that Sweden blocked The Finns of Sweden
to organize themselves under the Finnish Parlament
of Sweden?
jami
--
# Ei tule kirjastoon Ruijan Kaiku,Ruotsinsuomalainen eik{ Karjalan #
# Sanomat,mutta kyll{ Neues Deutschland ja Tiedonantaja #
Jyrki Nuotio
er...@wotan.ens.fr,wrote:
<Jyrki, what is a "substantial" minority?. I would not be
<supprised if there would be sufficient Danish/Norwegian
<speakers in say Helsinki, that they could fill up a school
<with Danish/Norwegian pupils. Would that, in your view, be
<a substantial minority?.
Actually I do not know exact figure. However we can assume
that if there are enough kids to fill up a school or even many schools,
it might be a substantial minority. Does anybody have any ideas
about this subject. BTW would it be nice to have all
Swedish/Norwegian/Danish/Finnish schools in all those four countries.
- jyrki
Henrik Ernoe
Oh, jyrki you are most generous but, alas, totally unrealistic.
If DK, which have a much higher number of immigrants than SF,
where to do as you suggest, we would have to start seperate
schools for Turks, Kurds, Itailans, Portugese, Pakistani, and
countless other nations.
The basic feature for being an immigrant, whatever nationality,
is that if one moves, by choice or necessity, to an other
culture one have an obligation to integrate in this culture.
(Note to the PCs, it does not mean to give up ones own national
culture or language!)
That the receiving culture has an obligation to treat the
newcomes decently goes without saying. This includes in DK that
the schools try to provide some teaching in Farsi, Turkish, etc
but that the language of instruction is Danish. It is off course
also possible for the immigrant community to use the Danish
system for alternative schooling and estalish their own schools.
(Note to all the anti socialist SCNers, in DK the alternative
schools were championed by the socialists, while the conservatives
were against)
However, it is up to the immigrant community to do so by their own
iniative. But, and this is important, these schoolsare still
subject to Danish educational laws including that the pupils have
to master the Danish language.
Now, if the immigrant comes from an country that have a national,
established minority in the country, what then? In DK this applies
to the Germans, in Germany to the Danes (and others), in S and N
the finns.
In this case the immigrant should off course have the possibility
to use the school system of the minority, anything else would be
ridiculous. However, this possibility can only be used in the area
where the minority live. For the German immigrants to DK this
would mean in Sönder-Jylland, For Danes in Germany, in the Northern
part of Slesvig-Holsten, and for the Finns in Sweden Tornedalen and
possibly other areas.
However, to demand that schooling should be provided outside of the
native area of the minority is ridiculous.
The Germans have no obligation to provide schools for Danes in
Bavaria, likewise the Danes have no obligation for Germans in
Odense and the Swedens have no obligation for Finns in Halmstad.
I can understand your irritation and resentment against the Swedish,
since the Finns (immigrants and the native minority) in Sweden have
clearly been subject to discrimination earlier in time. To me it is
also clear that the Swedes are having troubles in coming to terms
with this fact and the fact that they have native minorities and
that have minority rigths.
(A note to the Swedes, you are by no means alone in this. Danes
like me have always thougth of yourselves as 1), the good demo-
cratic guys and 2) that we were the ones that suffered in the
nationality question. It was quite a schock to me to realise how
the Danes were looked upon by the Icelandics, Feroese, Green-
landers, not to mention the realisation that the Danish behavior
in the Slevig Holsten conflict up to 1856 was not as "pure" as we
were brougth up to belive.)
However, Jyrki and the other Finns, in this discussion, cool off
and think.
If you want to improve the situation for the Finns in Sweden and
Norway, you have to be realistic. This means: to acknowledge the
fact that there is a difference between Finns belonging to the
native minority (and the size of it is totally irrelevant!) and
recent Finnish immigrants.
That the rigths for a Finn (be it a native or and immigrant) in
Tornedalen and a immigrant in Halmstad are fundamentally different.
And that any immigrant have to assimilate or leave, - look at me;
I am even learning french!
If you do not accept this you are only damanging the cause of
the Finns in Sweden and Norway.
Outsiders in the Baltic sea council, the EU and other human rigth fora
will probably have sympathy for the Finnish situation, but
they are not stupid either! If you don`t become more realistic
you`ll never find any support there.
regards Henrik Erno
Johan Olofsson
08 Jan 96 09:52, Jarmo Ryyti wrote to All:
JR> In the beginning of the previous year The Institute of Finnish
JR> Language asked the administration of the University of
JR> Stockholm to repeal the ban to defend the dissertion in Finnish
JR> at the university of Stockholm.
JR> In all other language institutions the dissertions are permitted
JR> to be defended with the language the institution is making
JR> research.
JR> "Finnish school" , "Finnish education" causes hostile reactions
JR> in Sweden,not "English school", "German school","French school".
JR> You can confirm the aforementioned issue:
JR> Finska Institutionen
JR> Stockholms universitet
JR> 106 91 Stockholm
JR> phone: -08-16 23 59
JR> You can ask: Birger Winsa, Erling Wande, Helge Niska,Jarmo Lainio.
JR> Unlike the Swedish netters who never give any sources for their
JR> "infomation" there is *again* one source for those who seek
JR> information about extraordinary Swedish culture.
And so I did.
This is the result:
=== Cut ===
------------------------------------------------------------
(203) Thu 11 Jan 96 19.41
By: Helge Niska
To: Johan Olofsson
Re: Finnish at schools in Sweden
St: Pvt Rcvd
------------------------------------------------------------
From: Helge Niska <Helge...@tele.su.se>
To: johan.o...@magnus.ct.se
As far as I know, dissertations at Sth univ. can be defended only in the
following languages: Swedish, Danish, Norwegian, English, German and French.
It is true that there have been discussions with the University to give the
right to use Finnish also, but I'm not sure about the outcome of this. I'll
have to check with Prof. Wande.
In any case, Finnish is not treated any worse than Dutch, Italian, Russian or
Arabic, to name a few...
Helge Niska
Stockholm University
=== Cut ===
(1) Sat 13 Jan 96 0.50
By: Helge Niska
To: Johan Olofsson
Re: Finnish at schools in Sweden
St: Pvt Rcvd
------------------------------------------------------------
From: Helge Niska <ni...@tele.su.se>
To: Johan Olofsson <johan.o...@magnus.ct.se>
Johan-
Visst får Du citera.
Jag har tagit reda på hur det gick när finska institutionen ville få
tillåtelse att ordna disputation på finska. Det blev tvärt nej - men
däremot får själva avhandlingen skrivas på finska. Det innebär att
finskan faktiskt ligger bättre till än de andra språken (bortsett från
skandinaviska, engelska, franska och tyska)
Rätten att skriva avhandling på finska gäller från 1.7.95.
Hälsningar,
Helge.
=== Cut ===
Someone with greater knowledge in English is welcome to translat.
kind regards
Johan
Johan Olofsson
10 Jan 96 18:08, Johan Olofsson wrote to Björn Palmen,Helsingfors:
BH>> Make Finnish one of the Official Languages of Sweden, Swedish and
BH>> Saami being the other two Official Languages.
JO> (WHICH of the Sami language, and which finnish language? The
JO> standardized Finland-Finnish or the local Tornedalen-Finnish of the
JO> native minority?)
JO> One thing is to _declare_ languages to be "official languages" but it
JO> all depends on what this should lead to in practice. For us
JO> Sweden-Swedes, I'm afraid you have to explain more carefully what
JO> effect it would have to declare languages to be "official." I don't
JO> believe any Sweden-Swede to have any clear ideas about what follows a
JO> declaration of official languages.
The question was 100% serious.
I am still hoping to find an answer.
JO> Will suddenly all children have to study all official languages?
Johan
Johan Olofsson
12 Jan 96 12:42, Jari Partanen wrote to Johan Olofsson:
JP> Indeed the Finns are used to, that it is the central government, which
JP> makes strict rules for the municipalities, how to handle minority
JP> issues. As far as I can see, the main purpose of the legislation is to
JP> protect the minorities. Finland has not had real language disputes in
JP> the parliament- level during the last decades, but in the municipal
JP> level they now and then appear. (An example: Lappland's
JP> Finnish-speaking majority campaigned against the recent improvement
JP> of the rights of the Saami-people.)
JP> I may generally support the increase of the power of the
JP> municipalities (though my opinion in this matter is not very clear),
JP> but I indeed believe, that the rights of cultural and lingual
JP> minorities, as well as basic human rights of individuals, must be
JP> guaranteed by the central government.
I think you again make the classical error of applying Finnish experiences on
Sweden, forgetting the Swedish reality.
The native Tornedalen-Finnish minority constitute the majority in all the three
municipalities at the border to Finland (that is along the Tornio river).
Repeating what I've written before: At the municipality level also the
immigrated Finns and Finnish Tornedalen-Finns have political influence.
You might think that everything is best as it is in Finland. Be my guest.
But if you are interested in convincing Swedes, then it is probably more
important to adapt your arguments to the Swedish reality - don't you think?
Until 1971 the Swedish national board for educational issues remained quite
restrictive to education in the Finnish language, and improvements aren't going
too rapidly. But I think you are silly when you try to say that the minority
doesn't have any own responsibilities. They are given political power. A big
problem is that they do not use it. You can not blame the Swedish parliament
for that, can you?
Johan
Johan Olofsson
10 Jan 96 10:48, Svante Wendel wrote to Jarmo Ryyti:
=>> Make Finnish one of the Official Languages of Sweden, Swedish and
=>> Saami being the other two Official Languages. Could Sweden be once
=>> as tolerant nation as Finland?
SW> Judging from many things such as the number of immigrants that we
SW> accept Sweden is and has always been more tolerant than Finland.....
Concluding from the fact that many of the Finnish immigrants to Sweden claim
the Finnish intolerance being a pushing factor, making them emmigrate, I think
mr Ryytis statement is as ridiculous as usual.
Do we have to mention the Finnish treatment of homosexuals?
Johan
Jari Partanen
This part of the thread seems to be a Sweden - Finland bashing competition.
The Finnish treatment of homosexuals has hardly much to do with Sweden's
official languages, but gay rights certainly are an important issue.
Your knowledge of the life of gay people in Finland is out-of-date, if
you believe that their life in Finland is harder than in Sweden. This
probably was true 20 years ago, but not nowadays.
Finland's gay legislation is still lagging behind the Scandinavian countries,
but last year Finland got the law, which makes it a crime to discriminate
people because of sexual orientation. The law of gay marriage is still
going back and forth in the Parliament, but I am convinced, that it will
have to be passed. In such practical things as giving a municipal apartment
gay couples have been regarded as a family already for years.
So, Finland is some years behind Scandinavia in formal gay rights (but
ahead of most European countries). But there are other totalitarian
restrictions which make the gay life in Sweden in practice more difficult
than in Finland. For example, go to the nearest library and check from
a gay journal the lists of meeting places of gay people in Stockholm and
in Helsinki. You will see that Helsinki has a good variety of gay
restaurants, bars and discos, whereas Stockholm (evidently because of
the totalitarian alcohol policy) seems to have a very limited gay scene,
where parks and bushes are playing an important role. And did you know,
that Sweden's law forbids lesbians to be artificially inseminated,
whereas in Finland a woman does not have to be married to a man for that?
Best regards,
Magnus Hurd
Johan Olofsson <johan.o...@magnus.ct.se> wrote:
>Another of mr Ryytis bluffs becomes dust when compared with reality.
I think Ryyti's intentions in this matter were mostly honest. But I
think he might have missed some points on how communication takes
place in the academic world (see comments below). I'm sorry for
the rather technical tone in this posting.
There are two different things: the dissertation and the defense
of the dissertation. The dissertation is a written publication
which sums up the research done by the individual seeking a
PhD degree. Now, that's not all. One also presents the
dissertation at a public seminar. This is called the defense of
the dissertation.
08 Jan 96 09:52, Jarmo Ryyti wrote to All:
> In the beginning of the previous year The Institute of Finnish
> Language asked the administration of the University of
> Stockholm to repeal the ban to defend the dissertion in Finnish
> at the university of Stockholm.
>
> In all other language institutions the dissertions are permitted
> to be defended with the language the institution is making
> research.
>
Ryyti claims that a dissertation cannot be defended in Finnish.
From Olofsson's conversation with Niska (see below) this seems to be
a correct statement. One can also conclude from the
Olofsson-Niska (see below) conversation that to write the dissertation in
Finnish is perfectly in order (at least at Stockholm University).
The dissertation and the defense of the dissertation are both
intended to make the research material available to an audience
as wide as possible. They are not intended to be cultural
support for some language. The natural choice of language is
therefore English. For instance, at the Department of Physics
at Chalmers University of Technology between the years 1989-1994
all seminars I attended were in English. On some informal
occasions, when the audience happened to be all Swedish,
Swedish was used. Since I'm Swedish myself I never attended a
seminar with a completely Finnish (or Norwegian/Italian/etc) audience,
and can therefore not report what would have happened in that case.
Rytti again:
> "Finnish school" , "Finnish education" causes hostile reactions
> in Sweden,not "English school", "German school","French school".
From my experience this is not correct. No doubt there exists
xenophobia in Sweden. My opinion is that the Finnish immigrants
suffer less than many other groups.
Magnus Hurd, mag...@ecn.purdue.edu
For completeness, below follows the Olofsson-Niska conversation:
In article <ftn_2.204.226_30f8...@magnus.ct.se>,
Johan Olofsson <johan.o...@magnus.ct.se> wrote:
>------------------------------------------------------------
>From: Helge Niska <Helge...@tele.su.se>
>To: johan.o...@magnus.ct.se
>
>As far as I know, dissertations at Sth univ. can be defended only in the
>following languages: Swedish, Danish, Norwegian, English, German and French.
>It is true that there have been discussions with the University to give the
>right to use Finnish also, but I'm not sure about the outcome of this. I'll
>have to check with Prof. Wande.
>In any case, Finnish is not treated any worse than Dutch, Italian, Russian or
>Arabic, to name a few...
>
>Helge Niska
>Stockholm University
>
>=== Cut ===
Jari Partanen
> BH>> Make Finnish one of the Official Languages of Sweden, Swedish and
> BH>> Saami being the other two Official Languages.
>
> JO> (WHICH of the Sami language, and which finnish language? The
> JO> standardized Finland-Finnish or the local Tornedalen-Finnish of the
> JO> native minority?)
Well, Sweden could define the Saami-people as one cultural minority group,
and municipality by municipality check, which Saami-languages are spoken
in each of them, and make those Saami languages official in that municipality.
Like in Finland: Northern Saami is official in all municipalities of
Finland's Saami-land, and in the municipality of Inari also Skolt-Saami
and Inari-Saami are official.
Certainly the diversity of Saami culture cannot really be a serious
obstacle in recognizing the Saami minority officially?????
Because Tornedalian Finnish is, in practise, a dialect of standard-
Finnish, I guess it would be standard-Finnish, which should be recognized;
however, I am not familiar with Tornedalian Finnish and leave the question
to experts.
Best regards,
Jari P.
Svante Wendel
[snip]
Finnish
> born Finnish speakers living in Sweden cannot be regarded any more as
> immigrants. They just happen to live in another EU state. Think about
> USA. If a person moves from Ohio to Wisconsin, he/she is certainly not
> immigrant.
Sheeesh....
The people in Ohio and Wisconsin speak the same language, man. And
besides Ohio and Wisconsin are in the same country....
The European Union is a union formed by independent countries....
Gugge Törnquist
12:25:00 +0200:
> PS
> You asked if the Finland-Swedes are Finns.
> Not according to Swedish or Finnish use of language.
> They are "Finlanders" or citizens of Finland - but not Finns.
Well, in swedish perhaps. But I doubt that the distinction between
'Finnar' and 'finländare' exists in english.
But perhaps Gunnar "The only man who owns Oxford Englsih Dictionary in
s.c.n." Blix could make a final statement?
Gugge
Johan Olofsson
14 Jan 96 02:05, Magnus Hurd wrote to Johan Olofsson:
MH> I think Ryyti's intentions in this matter were mostly honest. But I
MH> think he might have missed some points on how communication takes
MH> place in the academic world (see comments below). I'm sorry for
MH> the rather technical tone in this posting.
No reason to be sorry. Jarmo Ryyti writes from the Jyväskylä University.
Mr Ryytis lead theme is how Swedes and the Swedish government treat Finns and
the Finnish language worse than any other people or language on the earth.
I allow myself to mistrust his honesty.
He wrote:
>> In all other language institutions the dissertations are permitted
>> to be defended with the language the institution is making research.
Which has been reported by mr Niska to be false.
Johan
ps
MH> One can also conclude from the Olofsson-Niska (see below)
MH> conversation that to write the dissertation in Finnish is perfectly
MH> in order (at least at Stockholm University).
Yes, but it can be questioned if it's wise to do so.
If a dissertation is to be used for scientific purposes, it should better be
produced in a language which can be read by largest possible population of
scientists.
Johan Olofsson
>>> The real alternative would a similar language policy
>>> with Finland. There are Swedish scools and Finnish
>>> schools. It is real.
JN> If there are enough Finnish speakers to fill up a school, the answer
JN> is yes. In Finland there must be Swedish schools. That is the law. The
JN> policy is to help the minority to keep their language, not to forget
JN> it.
I think I now, despite your limited explanations, have understood the
following:
* You say that a native minority have no more rights, than an immigrated group?
* You say that it's only the number which decides if one have minority rights
or not?
* You say that children and grandchildren of immigrants should be protected
from loosing the immigrant language?
* You say that this is the responsibility of the receiving country?
* You propose segregation?
Do I understand you right?
One schools for the Finns,
one for pupils whose parents came from Poland,
one for them, whos parents came from Norway,
one for them, whose parents came from Iran,
one for them, whose parents came from Turkey,
one for them, whose parents came from Denmark,
one for them, whose parents came from Bosnia,
one for them, whose parents came from Croatia,
one for them, whose parents came from Macedonia,
one for them, whose parents came from Greece, and
one for them, whose parents came from Germany.
The good thing with this, is that that the Swedish pupils are allowed to go in
pure Swedish schools too?
What about those immigrant-groups who are not big enough to fill a class one
year. What shall we do with them? Is the solution to let them start school
every second year? Or should we move the families to the nearest town with a
bigger concentration of immigrants from that country?
What about immigrants with similar languages, but cultural conflicts?
Arabs for instance, or Spanish speaking South Americans, or the nowadays quite
burning conflict between Serbs, Croats and Bosnians?
What about pupils who have parents with different mother tongues?
What about schools who can't find qualified teachers?
Don't you think all those small schools would be somehow more expensive to run
than schools with more than one class in each grade?
JN> Finnish born Finnish speakers living in Sweden cannot be regarded
JN> any more as immigrants. They just happen to live in another EU state.
When this is the EU-rule, that any EU-citizen can move to any EU-country and
request to be educated on his/her mother language, THEN that's the case.
Until then is every Finn outside of the Tornedalen and the Finnbygd of
Norrbotten a Finn who have moved from the area where he/she constituted a
native minority - exactly as much as a Dane who moves over the Öresund has to
accept that the educational language is Swedish and not Danish - despite the
fact that lots of Danes newly have moved to Landskrona, since taxes and housing
is less expensive than in K?benhavn.
By the way: I DO like your new way of arguing.
I like it much better than the prior method.
Johan
Lennart Regebro
>
>What about changing the atmosphere of diskrimination and establish
>a Finnish university in Stockholm. And give for those, who "somehow
>are not reluctant to admit, that they are not "real" Swedes" a possibility
>to show it. What is wrong with this idea?
Nothing. You are welcome to start a Finnish school in Stockholm if you want.
>The number of minorities is relatively same in Sweden and Finland, who
>has Swedish universities.
The number of Swedish talking Finns are much higher than the Finnish talking
Swedes.
--
Lennart Regebro: len...@bump.traffic.is
Moderator of comp.os.netware.announce: cona-r...@stacken.kth.se
Object-Fax technical support: tech...@traffic.is
Home page: http://www.traffic.is/~lennart/
Lennart Regebro
Jyrki_...@online.tietokone.fi says...
>
>Is the Swedish education system for Finnish speakers as extensive
The number of Finnish speaking Swedes are much lower than the number of
Swedish speaking Finns.
(I wonder how many times that needs repeating before it gets through.)
Lennart Regebro
>Make Finnish one of the Official Languages of Sweden, Swedish and Saami
>being the other two Official Languages.
I didn't know Saami was an official language in Sweden. When did that happen?
There are 20.000 finnsih speaking Swedes, and 10.000 Saami speaking Swedes.
There are almost 9 million Swedish speaking Swedes. Should minorities that
small really have their languages official? I don't know.
Lennart Regebro
>
>Could Sweden be once as tolerant nation as Finland?
I hope that never happens. I like the high immigration policy of Sweden, and
hope that Sweden never gets as "tolerant" as Finland and almost completely
stops the immigration.
Lennart Regebro
says...
>
>Well, Sweden could define the Saami-people as one cultural minority group,
>and municipality by municipality check, which Saami-languages are spoken
>in each of them, and make those Saami languages official in that
>municipality.
I think this is a good solution, and will support it unless somebosy can
convince me otherwise. The Tornedalen-Finnish should be an official language
in Tornedalen (Torneå kommun, kanske?).
Johan Olofsson
JP> Because Tornedalian Finnish is, in practise, a dialect of standard-
JP> Finnish, I guess it would be standard-Finnish, which should be
JP> recognized; however, I am not familiar with Tornedalian Finnish and
JP> leave the question to experts.
I've learned (and some minutes ago written) that Finland-Swedish as _not_ a
dialect of Swedish, but a variety consisting of several different dialects.
What's the difference for the three Norbotten-Finnish dialects, which make you
say that the Tornedalen dialects (two of them :-) are dialects of the
standard-Finnish and not an own variety.
I don't know.
I hope you do.
Johan
Bj|rn Palmen,Helsingfors
I have tried to stay silent in this debate, but after reading
Johan.Olofsson@magnus last posting I feel I must comment.
J.O@m raises a lot of interesting questions, and he manages
somehow to get them all dead wrong. I will try to put the
matter straight, so here goes:
johan.o...@magnus.ct.se (Johan Olofsson) asks.
>* You say that a native minority have no more rights,
> than an immigrated group?
I say all human beings have exactly the same rights, their 'group'
- whatever you mean by that - simply does not come into it. OK?
>* You say that it's only the number which decides if one have
>minority rights or not?
I say all rights are _equal_. There are not "majority rights" and
somehow lesser "minority rights". OK?
>* You say that children and grandchildren of immigrants should be protected
>from loosing the immigrant language?
Every child should be protected from losing his own mother language.
Whether his language is an "immigrant" language, "emigrant" language
or "minority" language is comletely irrelevant. OK?
>* You say that this is the responsibility of the receiving country?
This is the responsibility of the authorities, yes. It does not
depend on whether their country is a "receiving" country, a "dispatching"
country, a "monolingual" country or whatever. OK?
>* You propose segregation?
Nobody proposes segregation after Nelson Mandela was elected president
of South Africa. All human beings are equal, OK?
>One schools for the Finns
yes of course, if there are pupils enough to fill a Finnish school.
>one for pupils whose parents came from Poland
depends on the language of the parents, not all speak Polish
>one for them, whos parents came from Norway,
good idea, akkurat
>one for them, whose parents came from Iran
yes, do you have any objections?
>one for them, whose parents came from Turkey,
maybe two, one Turkish school and one school for Kurds, yes,
>one for them, whose parents came from Denmark
if there are pupils enough, en morsom idee
>one for them, whose parents came from Bosnia
maybe more than one, there may even be Albanians involved
>one for them, whose parents came from Croatia
if there are pupils enough, yes of course
>one for them, whose parents came from Macedonia,
yes, why not?
>one for them, whose parents came from Greece, and
evcharisto, all civilisation comes from ancient Greece. So yes.
>one for them, whose parents came from Germany.
Das ist ganz richtig.
>The good thing with this, is that that the Swedish pupils
>are allowed to go in pure Swedish schools too?
Well, if they learn that that kind of English, maybe some of them should
go to English schools. They certainly do not need language support
from Swedish instruction at school, as there is plenty of Swedish
everywhere around them anyhow.
>What about those immigrant-groups who are not big enough to fill a class one
>year. What shall we do with them?
We should find a private home teacher for these very few pupils.
> Is the solution to let them start school every second year?
Half the pupils would lose one year, but if that is the best solution
according to their parents (better than home education), then yes.
> Or should we move the families to the nearest town with a
> bigger concentration of immigrants from that country?
"We" should be very careful not to "move" anybody anywhere! However,
some families may prefer to move neare to the school. It happens
with Swedish families in Finland every year.
>What about immigrants with similar languages, but cultural conflicts?
>Arabs for instance, or Spanish speaking South Americans, or the nowadays quite
>burning conflict between Serbs, Croats and Bosnians?
Yes, you forgot the Serbian scools, didn't you? The parents should decide
these matters.
>What about pupils who have parents with different mother tongues?
The pupils could then chose which school they prefer, ok?
>What about schools who can't find qualified teachers?
At first, they would have to do with unqualified teachers.
>Don't you think all those small schools would be somehow more expensive to run
>than schools with more than one class in each grade?
No, not necessarily. Bringing up citizens with no good mother tongue
of their own would be REALLY expensive, btw.
...
>By the way: I DO like your new way of arguing.
>I like it much better than the prior method.
So do I!
Bjorn Palmen
who went to a Swedish school in completely Finnish town Hyvinkaa. Just 18
pupils in the whole schoold, three different classes working in the
same school room with one teacher (one grade was painting, one grade
was doing maths and one grade was listening to the Geography lesson,
at the same time for instance).
Thus, I did not lose my Swedish language.
Nor did I become an aggressive nincompoop idiot... :)
Antti Leppanen
I think Jari had it in a wrong direction, since the standard Finnish is
of course created out of Finnish dialects, mostly western, and to my
knowledge no Finnish dialect (of which the Tornionjokiolaaksoan ;) is
one) is a result of any standard.
Antti
Johan Olofsson
>> What's the difference for the three Norbotten-Finnish dialects, which make
>> you say that the Tornedalen dialects (two of them :-) are dialects of the
>> standard-Finnish and not an own variety.
> I think Jari had it in a wrong direction, since the standard Finnish is
> of course created out of Finnish dialects, mostly western, and to my
> knowledge no Finnish dialect (of which the Tornionjokiolaaksoan ;) is
> one) is a result of any standard.
That doesn't answer my question.
Why should the Finland-Swedish be an own variety, while the native
Sweden-Finnish should not?
What's the difference?
Johan
Johan Olofsson
RJ> All those who wants it, are entitled to limited teaching in their
RJ> "home-language", but when it comes to Finnish, Turkish and some other
RJ> "large" languages, there are classes where the main part, or all of
RJ> the teaching is done in that language.
RJ> It is the choice of the parents to send their children to these
RJ> classes.
It should maybe be repeated that home-language education is not dependent on if
the language is mother tongue for the pupil or not, but if it is the mother
tongue of any parent, or if the pupil uses it with other (supposedly elderly)
relatives who live in their family and who have a weak knowledge of Swedish.
RJ> Sweden has no official statistics over the total Finnish (or any
RJ> other language for that matter) speakers, but you could get a clue by
RJ> studying the official statistical abstract of Sweden, issued every
RJ> year. The latest issue I could get my hands on was 1991.
Previous week I found the newest volume at the institution library, before any
of the big scientists had found it and borrowed it for the next decade.
:-)))
RJ> In the year 1990 the total amount of pupils in Swedish compulsory
RJ> schools, year 1-9, where 894.558. Out of these 26.115 had chosen to
RJ> follow either complete education, or part time, in Finnish language.
The figures since then are:
-90 -91 -92 -93 -94 -95
---------------------------------------------------
Finnish 26'115 24'553 22'914 20'869 19'723 18'877
Arabic 5'617 7'540 8'477 9'552 10'532 11'688
Serbocroat 5'507 5'248 4'974 5'656 5'053 11'488
Spanish 9'579 9'726 9'896 9'971 9'830 9'631
Persian 5'021 6'206 7'243 7'874 8'204 8'330
of totally: 93'000 98'000 103'000 103'000 105'000 112'000
RJ> This was a decrease from the 37.067 pupils in the 1983 statistics.
RJ> These pupils where spread across the entire country.
The pupils in Tornedalen are of course included in those figures.
RJ> From these numbers, compared to your numbers on how large the Finnish
RJ> minority is, in the light of the fact that possibilities are present,
RJ> the conclusion is that any "illiteracy" is selfchosen.
The immigrated "minority" is obviously not interested in the Finnish language.
kind regards!
Johan
ps
>> When they officially do not exist there is *officially no
>> problems* with the human rights of the Finnish speaking Swedes.
RJ> What is the "Human rights problem"?
We haven't seen any answer yet, have we?
Magnus Selhammar
|> -90 -91 -92 -93 -94 -95
|> ---------------------------------------------------
|> Finnish 26'115 24'553 22'914 20'869 19'723 18'877
|> Arabic 5'617 7'540 8'477 9'552 10'532 11'688
|> Serbocroat 5'507 5'248 4'974 5'656 5'053 11'488
|> Spanish 9'579 9'726 9'896 9'971 9'830 9'631
|> Persian 5'021 6'206 7'243 7'874 8'204 8'330
|>
|> of totally: 93'000 98'000 103'000 103'000 105'000 112'000
|>
|>
|> The immigrated "minority" is obviously not interested in the Finnish language.
|>
The Finnish pupils are roughly about 2%. I think this is a surprisingly
high number! Johan also wrote (deleted unfortunately) that the total
number of pupils is about 800.000 (roughly). Simple algebra then tells
us that the number of people interested in Finnish education (if they
were in the appropriate age) is about 200.000.
I do however not think that one should interpret the decreasing number
of Finnish pupils as if they are not interested. Rather the second
generation of the immigrated Finns have left school. They will then
have children of their own, probably with a Swede, which may or may
not want to go to a Finnish school.
From this we conclude that the endless tirades from J&J that Sweden
prevents Finns to learn their own language are false.
Magnus
Jyrki Nuotio
RJ> schools, year 1-9, where 894.558. Out of these 26.115 had chosen to
RJ> follow either complete education, or part time, in Finnish
language.
johan.o...@magnus.ct.se,wrote
<The figures since then are:
<
< -90 -91 -92 -93 -94 -95
< <---------------------------------------------------
<Finnish 26'115 24'553 22'914 20'869 19'723 18'877
<
Thank you for publishing these figures. I wonder what they actually
are.
Are they 99 % of pupils who take Finnish language lessons after regular
school classes.
- jyrki
Jarmo Ryyti
: In article <ftn_2.204.226_3119...@magnus.ct.se>, johan.o...@magnus.ct.se (Johan Olofsson) writes:
: |> -90 -91 -92 -93 -94 -95
: |> ---------------------------------------------------
: |> Finnish 26'115 24'553 22'914 20'869 19'723 18'877
: |> Arabic 5'617 7'540 8'477 9'552 10'532 11'688
: |> Serbocroat 5'507 5'248 4'974 5'656 5'053 11'488
: |> Spanish 9'579 9'726 9'896 9'971 9'830 9'631
: |> Persian 5'021 6'206 7'243 7'874 8'204 8'330
: |>
: |> of totally: 93'000 98'000 103'000 103'000 105'000 112'000
:
Nothing about schools where the language of education is *Finnish*.
The Finnish kids are put into the Swedish speaking schools where are some
Finnish classes. The status of those classes are lower becaause of
a lack of resources, given for the Swedish speaking education at
the first hand.
There is a recommendation that the municipalities should arrange
education in Finnish language until 6th grade. No binding regulations.
After the 6th grade all is voluntary.
: The immigrated "minority" is obviously not interested in the Finnish
: language.
The Finnish kids have to go at schools under much severe circumstances
than Swedish speaking kids. Mother-tongue education which the Swedes
call home-language education is given *after* the regular school
day. The teachers in home language are ambulant teachers.
In ordinary shool subjects the teachers have to teach without
books because there is not any, namely in Finnish.
Thus the quality of education is not competitive and the parents
of the kids know it often.
When Sweden on purpose bosts that there is available education
in Finnish or Saami it is not mentioned what kind of education
it is and in which kind of circumstances it is arranged.
It is out of question that Finland's Swedish speaking minority
had themselves to find books abroad for the schools. As a comparison.
: The Finnish pupils are roughly about 2%. I think this is a surprisingly
: high number! Johan also wrote (deleted unfortunately) that the total
: number of pupils is about 800.000 (roughly). Simple algebra then tells
: us that the number of people interested in Finnish education (if they
: were in the appropriate age) is about 200.000.
The figures do not tell anything about Finnish schools in Sweden.
: I do however not think that one should interpret the decreasing number
: of Finnish pupils as if they are not interested. Rather the second
: generation of the immigrated Finns have left school. They will then
: have children of their own, probably with a Swede, which may or may
: not want to go to a Finnish school.
The figures do not tell anything about the quality of education
given for the Finnish speaking kids. It is known that there
are:
* no school books in Finnish produced by Sweden for the ordinary
school subjects
* there is no teacher training seminars for the Finnish speaking
teachers for different school subjects.
...their is only so called home language teacher training whose
status is very low
...so called home language teachers have lower status than
teachers in other school subjects. There is turn is *no* teacher
training existing in Finnish langauge and there is hardly any
education available
...further education of teachers is not existing,there is
no department for the Finnish or Saami matters in the Ministry
of Education --> the minority matters are in the Ministry of
Agriculture! Believe or not,but there they are!
* Sweden makes deliberately Finnish speking education non-competitive
compared to the Swedish speaking education
...for instance there is no higher education in Finnish language
available.
: From this we conclude that the endless tirades from J&J that Sweden
: prevents Finns to learn their own language are false.
From this point of view one who do not know Sweden's policy might
believe you.
jami
--
# Ei tule kirjastoon Ruijan Kaiku,Ruotsinsuomalainen eik{ Karjalan #
# Sanomat,mutta kyll{ Neues Deutschland ja Tiedonantaja #
Magnus Selhammar
|> Magnus Selhammar (mag...@solaris.astro.uu.se) wrote:
|> : In article <ftn_2.204.226_3119...@magnus.ct.se>, johan.o...@magnus.ct.se (Johan Olofsson) writes:
|>
|> : |> -90 -91 -92 -93 -94 -95
|> : |> ---------------------------------------------------
|> : |> Finnish 26'115 24'553 22'914 20'869 19'723 18'877
|> : |> Arabic 5'617 7'540 8'477 9'552 10'532 11'688
|> : |> Serbocroat 5'507 5'248 4'974 5'656 5'053 11'488
|> : |> Spanish 9'579 9'726 9'896 9'971 9'830 9'631
|> : |> Persian 5'021 6'206 7'243 7'874 8'204 8'330
|> : |>
|> : |> of totally: 93'000 98'000 103'000 103'000 105'000 112'000
|> :
|> Nothing about schools where the language of education is *Finnish*.
|>
|> The Finnish kids are put into the Swedish speaking schools where are some
|> Finnish classes. The status of those classes are lower becaause of
|> a lack of resources, given for the Swedish speaking education at
|> the first hand.
Again I want to to point out that the number is surprisingly high, not
low as Johan belived.
Why do the few Finnish pupils have to have their building of their own?
|> * Sweden makes deliberately Finnish speking education non-competitive
|> compared to the Swedish speaking education
|> ...for instance there is no higher education in Finnish language
|> available.
Besides your insult to the teachers, I suggest that you support your
claim that the education is of poor quality.
Also, I feel for some Jarmoian ranting. How is Swedish education arranged
in monolingual parts of Finland, and which parts of Sweden are bilingual
in the Finnish sense?
Magnus
Jyrki Nuotio
mag...@solaris.astro.uu.se,wrote:
<Again I want to to point out that the number is surprisingly high, not
<low as Johan belived.
<Why do the few Finnish pupils have to have their building of their own?
To give an opportunity to those other Finnish speaking kids who has had
to go to Swedish schools buildings because there has not been enough
all Finnish schools.
mag...@solaris.astro.uu.se,wrote:
<Also, I feel for some Jarmoian ranting. How is Swedish education
arranged
<in monolingual parts of Finland, and which parts of Sweden are
bilingual
<in the Finnish sense?
In case enough Swedish speakers move to a monilingual Finnish
speaking municipality it must offer education in Swedish, too. That is
the law. IMHO it is not a bad law. I think no Swedish or Finnish
speakers should
be oppressed in Finland and nobody should claim that they "want" to
forget their own language. The law guarantees that both languages
are equal. I like that. It is fair.
- jyrki
Per-Arne Sandegren
>Sweden and Eland are in that sense similar cases. Intolerance
>is Eland's thriving force very much same way as in Sweden.
>The intolerance is directed against all what is "Finnish".
>
>There was even a debate a month ago about a teacher whether
>he/she can say during gymnastic lessons at school "hyva""
>(a Finnish word)to the pupils!!!! The debate concerned only
>Finnish,not English if a teacher says "ok" in English it
>does not rise senses in Eland!! Or in Sweden for that matter!
>
>So nitpicking is a part of Eland's culture and it is
>the only openly institutionally rasist society in the
>Nordic countries.
Well, from what Ive heard and read in this group you have to be heavily
armed in order to dare to speak Swedish in your part of Finland.
If thats true, and I wouldnt be surprised if it is (even if normal Finns
only carry one tenth of your complex towards Sweden), then your society is
more racist than any other in Norden.
Your hoards of oppressed Finns just doesnt exist in Sweden. Besides the
ones in Tornedalen, the only visible evidence of a Finnish speaking
minority we have is a majority of the drunks in the parks.
Most Finns with few exceptions seem to quickly lay off their language and
Finnish habits (if any) to fit in society. Dont you have anything to hold
on to? Is that the real problem? Most assimilate fast and enjoy the
benefits available in our society that everybody here is entitled to. Soon
enough _they_ have become part of _us_.
You on the other hand strive for a division of a country that isnt even
yours! And Ive never seen evidence or any effort on your behalf to protect
the division in your country that you so much like us to have in Sweden.
That makes you an anti-Swedish more than a pro-Finn. With many insignias
of a racist.
Go and get a life, you need it. Join up and make this group an interesting
place to browse through instead of the alt.nuke-shit container that it has
become.
>jami
># Ei tule kirjastoon Ruijan Kaiku,Ruotsinsuomalainen eik{ Karjalan #
> # Sanomat,mutta kyll{ Neues Deutschland ja Tiedonantaja #
Is this a RSA-encrypted text mass? It sure looks unbreakable!
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Per-Arne Sandegren | "World war III can be averted by adherence
| to a strictly enforced dress code"
|
Stockholm | era.e...@memo.ericsson.se (text only)
SWEDEN | era...@era-t.ericsson.se
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Magnus Selhammar
|> Magnus Selhammar (mag...@solaris.astro.uu.se) wrote:
|> (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
|> cut
|> : Also, I feel for some Jarmoian ranting. How is Swedish education arranged
|> : in monolingual parts of Finland, and which parts of Sweden are bilingual
|> : in the Finnish sense?
|>
|> census in Finland where the language of the inhabitants are
|> asked. When the Finnish and Swedish languages are official ones
|> (in addition to Saami in some northern municipalities) there
|> is the following rule:
|>
|> The municipality is x-language speaking if there is less
|> than 8 % or 3000 y-language speaking persons in the municipality.
|> And vice versa.
|>
|> If the municipality has 3000 inhabitants or 8 %+ of the population
|> speaking language x or y the municipality is officially bilingual.
|>
|> So simple is that. (Correct me if I remember wrong).
|>
|> (Some text deleted were we once more learned that Jarmo does not
|> like ]land.)
Please, Jarmo. I did not ask you about your feelings toward ]land, neither
that you caracterize her politics as "racism". As far as I know there is
no genetic difference, so perhaps you should choose your words with
more care.
Neither did I ask you how census is done. I asked you how Swedish
education is arranged in monolingual parts of Finland. It would be
nice of you to answer the question since you certainly are very well
informed.
Magnus
Magnus Selhammar
|> In case enough Swedish speakers move to a monilingual Finnish
|> speaking municipality it must offer education in Swedish, too. That is
|> the law. IMHO it is not a bad law. I think no Swedish or Finnish
|> speakers should
|> be oppressed in Finland and nobody should claim that they "want" to
|> forget their own language. The law guarantees that both languages
|> are equal. I like that. It is fair.
If both languages have the same status, and I from you posts see
that the services are equal everywhere. Then, what is the difference
between a bi- and monolingual part?
Magnus
Kent Sandvik
Jyrki_...@online.tietokone.fi (Jyrki Nuotio) wrote:
>In case enough Swedish speakers move to a monilingual Finnish
>speaking municipality it must offer education in Swedish, too. That is
>the law. IMHO it is not a bad law. I think no Swedish or Finnish
>speakers should
>be oppressed in Finland and nobody should claim that they "want" to
>forget their own language. The law guarantees that both languages
>are equal. I like that. It is fair.
But what about other immigrants living in Finland and not speaking Finnish
or Swedish? Are you prepared to discriminate these groups? :-).
--Kent
Jarmo Ryyti
: In article <msg11554....@online.tietokone.fi>,
They are openly discriminated.
With the permission of international agreements on asylum seekers
and immigrants.
By far the natives of Finland are not in reservates unlike
those of North-America:-)
jami
--
Magnus Selhammar
|> There are bording schools in such towns like Pori,Varkaus,Oulu,Kotka
|> and Tampere which are monolingual towns. The Swedish speaking kids
|> of the region attend on school education in those schools. When
|> a particular municipality has not enough base for the Swedish language
|> school.
|>
|> In Eland and Sweden where the Swedish speaking people are in a majority
|> there is nothing alike for the Finnish speaking kids.
|>
|> There is no 8 % or 3000 principle existing.
|>
No, Sweden do not have any 8%/3000 principle. According to you it does
not seem to have any meaning at all. But besides of that, what are the
differences between Sweden and Finland? To me they seem rather the same.
Magnus
Johan Olofsson
RJ>> In the year 1990 the total amount of pupils in Swedish compulsory
RJ>> schools, year 1-9, where 894.558. Out of these 26.115 had chosen
RJ>> to follow either complete education, or part time, in Finnish language.
JN> <The figures since then are:
JN> < -90 -91 -92 -93 -94 -95
JN> < <-+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+-
JN> <Finnish 26'115 24'553 22'914 20'869 19'723 18'877
JN> Thank you for publishing these figures. I wonder what they actually
JN> are.
JN> Are they 99 % of pupils who take Finnish language lessons after
JN> regular school classes.
No, they are statistics collected by the Swedish national statistical board as
a source for state fundings to schools with immigrants. The data is said to
describe the number of pupils in grade 1-9 who use the mother tongue (other
than Swedish) of it's parent in daily communication with him/her. The data
collecting method makes false low values probable.
No distinction is reported in this material between language classes after
regular school classes instead of inbetween or instead of other topics.
Looking closer at the data shows an important error above. The figure of pupils
attending education in immigrant languages is for many groups much lower than
the number of pupils who are given the right.
Using the figures for 1993/94 the figures are the following for respectively
(1) number of known pupils who use the mother tongue of their parent(s) at
least at home, (2) number of pupils who follow education in Swedish as a second
language, a plight not a right, the closest we can come to an estimation of the
share of the pupils with another mother tongue, and (3) number of pupils who
follow education in the immigrant language.
Finns of Tornedalen, Romani and Sami speakers are specified separately.
It's also worth to note that the pupils following education in Swedish as a
second language not necessarily follow home language education.
Column 2 and 3 are exact figures for week 41 year 1993. Only pupils with
residence permit or nordic citizens are counted. Asylum applicants are
excluded.
(1) (2) (3)
+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--
Finns/Torned. 2'169 602 1'454
Sami lang. 587 163 330
Romanes 567 446 143
Finnish 17'554 7'753 9'460
Arabic 10'532 7'754 7'364
Spanish 9'830 5'523 6'479
Persian 8'204 5'385 6'194
Turkish 4'700 3'652 3'027
Polish 5'325 1'925 2'825
English 4'585 1'468 2'693
Serbocroat 5'053 2'989 2'413
Greek 2'258 1'037 1'481
Curdian 2'468 1'930 1'427
Assyrian 2'463 1'844 1'409
=============================
of totally: 105'000 56'170 58'801
The governmental funding of the schools education in home language is defined
as the cost for 0,85 hours of weekly teaching for each attending pupil,
maximized to one full time employed teacher for every 8:th pupil. Regardless of
how one meassures, the truth can't help being rude to J&J.
09 Feb 96 16:39, Jarmo Ryyti wrote:
JR> The Finnish kids are put into the Swedish speaking schools where are
JR> some Finnish classes. The status of those classes are lower becaause
JR> of a lack of resources, given for the Swedish speaking education
JR> at the first hand.
Jarmo Ryyti has amused himself with the usual tirades. The Finnish government
is free to support it's citizens in foreign countries in case the education
they are provided by the foreigners doesn't suffice. Other countries, as for
instance Greece and Sweden, do this.
JR> There is a recommendation that the municipalities should arrange
JR> education in Finnish language until 6th grade. No binding regulations.
JR> After the 6th grade all is voluntary.
Actually, mr Ryyti seems to be slightly disinformed. The nature of the
education in grade 7-12 make the use of foreign educational languages hard to
accomplish. It's however voluntary all the way from grade 1 to 9.
Municipalities are furthermore required to get acceptance from the national
school board if they arrange such education.
>: The immigrated "minority" is obviously not interested in the Finnish
>: language.
JR> The Finnish kids have to go at schools under much severe circumstances
JR> than Swedish speaking kids. Mother-tongue education which the Swedes
JR> call home-language education is given *after* the regular school
JR> day. The teachers in home language are ambulant teachers.
Not everywhere. That depends on the number of locally interested pupils/
parents. The Finnish parents have all the years since 1971, when this education
started, been extraordinarily prone to let their children decide themselves.
When most of the schools had home language education as an alternative to other
lessons, then the absence rates where even worse than today, when most schools
have home languages education additionally to the other topics on the schedule.
JR> In ordinary shool subjects the teachers have to teach without
JR> books because there is not any, namely in Finnish.
In ordinary schools topics, the teachers have good possibilities to require
books from Finland or Spain...
JR> The figures do not tell anything about Finnish schools in Sweden.
Right.
JR> The figures do not tell anything about the quality of education
JR> given for the Finnish speaking kids. It is known that there
JR> are:
JR> * no school books in Finnish produced by Sweden for the ordinary
JR> school subjects
JR> * there is no teacher training seminars for the Finnish speaking
JR> teachers for different school subjects.
And how far is it to Finland?
When the Greek state can afford to contribute to the training of immigrant
teachers in Sweden, why shouldn't the Finnish?
JR> * Sweden makes deliberately Finnish speking education non-competitive
JR> compared to the Swedish speaking education
JR> ...for instance there is no higher education in Finnish language
JR> available.
Finland hasn't yet disappeared, has it?
Higher education for 1'000 students who yearly leave school.
- Would be making those immigrants non-competitive, I'm afraid?
kind regards!
Johan