Russian more important than Swedish in Finland
Valtsu
director of the Region of Northern Karelia (i.e. the Finnish side of the
border) on the importance of russian in Finland in comparison with swedish.
In Finland everyone has to study swedish in school due to historical
reasons even though the swedish-speaking part of the population is only
some 5,5% and concentrates on the southern and western coastlines. This
is widely unpopular especially in the eastern and northern parts of the
country where swedish is seldom heard. Some time ago the swedish
language was dropped from the list of mandatory subjects in the
matriculation exam, but still kids have to try to stay awake during
swedish lessons.
Russian also is an unpopular language. In a quarter of a century the
number of kids studying seriously russian in school, i.e. taking russian
in their metriculation tests, has dropped from some 2.000 to less than a
thousand.
English by far is the most popular language in school followed by a wide
variety of different languages. The normal Finn in school studies two
so-called domestic languages (finnish and swedish) and two foreign
languages (english and something else), some take three foreign languages.
Mr Hyttinen would like to declare swedish and russian as alternatives
for a compulsory language, as the number of russian speakers is
shrinking too fast to meet the demands of trade and industry.
http://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/artikkeli/Pohjois-Karjalan+maakuntajohtaja+Ruotsin+vaihtoehdoksi+otettava+ven�j�/1135250109099
J. Anderson
"Valtsu" <val...@stadissa.fi> wrote in message
news:JjDCm.29796$La7....@uutiset.elisa.fi...
The same people who suggest that we should communicate in English (instead
of Swedish) with our fellow Nordics obviously think that we can't use
English in our dealings with the Russians. On the other hand, if Mr
Hyttinen's idea would be implemented, Swedish would quickly become popular
again.
Per Rønne
> The same people who suggest that we should communicate in English (instead
> of Swedish) with our fellow Nordics obviously think that we can't use
> English in our dealings with the Russians.
Were Swedish to be removed from the mandatory curriculum of Finnish
schools, the question could be asked whether Finland should remain as a
member of The Nordic Council ...
--
Per Erik R�nne
http://www.RQNNE.dk
Errare humanum est, sed in errore perseverare turpe
Tadas Blinda
> Per Erik Rønnehttp://www.RQNNE.dk
> Errare humanum est, sed in errore perseverare turpe
Quis dicebit quid est error?
Eugene Holman
(=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Per_R=F8nne?=) wrote:
> J. Anderson <ander...@inbox.lv> wrote:
>
> > The same people who suggest that we should communicate in English (instead
> > of Swedish) with our fellow Nordics obviously think that we can't use
> > English in our dealings with the Russians.
>
> Were Swedish to be removed from the mandatory curriculum of Finnish
> schools, the question could be asked whether Finland should remain as a
> member of The Nordic Council ...
It would be better to argue that Finnish, widely spoken indigenously in
Northern Sweden as well as by a small minority in Norway and strongly
influenced lexically, semantically, stylistically, and phraseologically by
Swedish for centuries, is also a Nordic language by association. If one is
able to overlook the differences in pronunciation, grammar, and
vocabulary, Finnish and Swedish, particularly its Finland-Swedish national
variety, are essentially the same language.
With a 5.5% Swedish-speaking minority, an autonomous province, the �land
Islands, that is 100% Swedish speaking, and close to a millennium of
cultural and political contacts with Sweden, Finland has the right to
claim that Swedish is not just the language of Sweden, but also has roots
in parts of Finland (�land, Kronoby, N�rp�s, the southern and western
coastal regions and archipelagos) as deep as anywhere in Sweden.
As to Russian, it should be equally obvious that the more Finns know about
their huge eastern neighbor, its language and its culture, the better the
Finns will be able to deal with it the next time it becomes overbearing,
overconfident, or just plain ornery. Despite the fact that Russian
presently has an unfavorable demographic development, there is no denying
the facts that it is becoming a more important and prosperous factor in
European integration. Presently, with roughly 280,000,000 speakers
(primary plus second-language speakers in more than fifteen countries),
Russian is the only major world language spoken in this part of the world.
It is also puzzling that few Finns consider learning Estonian, even the
basics, despite its being the only other national language that a Finn can
learn with a minimum of effort on the basis of Finnish.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Eugene Holman
<cc8c2757-7c14-4f61...@k17g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>, Tadas
Blinda <tadas....@lycos.es> wrote:
> On Oct 19, 7:08=A0am, p...@RQNNE.invalid (Per R=F8nne) wrote:
>
> > Per Erik R=F8nnehttp://www.RQNNE.dk
> > Errare humanum est, sed in errore perseverare turpe
>
> Quis dicebit quid est error?
Homo infallibilis.
Valtsu
> J. Anderson <ander...@inbox.lv> wrote:
>
>> The same people who suggest that we should communicate in English (instead
>> of Swedish) with our fellow Nordics obviously think that we can't use
>> English in our dealings with the Russians.
Of course big time business is conducted more and more in English
between Finland and Sweden as well as between Finland and Russia. This
is merely a fact of life in the globalised world. Personal contacts,
tourism etc. is another thing. Just look what has happened in say
Lappeenranta, Imatra or Joensuu, towns on the eastern border of Finland.
Some 20 years ago the only few signs in Russian were more or less
apartheid style "net blankes" signs limiting the number of russian
clients in a shop at a time. Now it is totally different, russians are
valued as good customers of importance to the economy.
>
> Were Swedish to be removed from the mandatory curriculum of Finnish
> schools, the question could be asked whether Finland should remain as a
> member of The Nordic Council ...
Nordic Council has served its purpose and has shown its inability to
adapt to changing times and circumstances. The free labour market and
passport union in the 1950-s were notable achievements paving the way
for present-day EU legislation and practices. Intra-parliamentary
cooperation in legislative matters was usful but not binding. Nordek was
a flop just as anything involved in military matters or national
security. What is left is a lot of parties and entertainment when the
council meets and some cultural fonds.
One of the final nails hammered in the Nordic Council coffin was the
stance taken to Baltic countries right after the disintegration of USSR.
No hopes were given to their membership in the council, only vague
"cooperation".
Valtsu
> In article <1j7tk9w.1b8c0aevqaa5uN%p...@RQNNE.invalid>, sp...@RQNNE.dk
> (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Per_R=F8nne?=) wrote:
>
>> J. Anderson <ander...@inbox.lv> wrote:
>>
>>> The same people who suggest that we should communicate in English (instead
>>> of Swedish) with our fellow Nordics obviously think that we can't use
>>> English in our dealings with the Russians.
>> Were Swedish to be removed from the mandatory curriculum of Finnish
>> schools, the question could be asked whether Finland should remain as a
>> member of The Nordic Council ...
>
> It would be better to argue that Finnish, widely spoken indigenously in
> Northern Sweden as well as by a small minority in Norway and strongly
> influenced lexically, semantically, stylistically, and phraseologically by
> Swedish for centuries, is also a Nordic language by association. If one is
> able to overlook the differences in pronunciation, grammar, and
> vocabulary, Finnish and Swedish, particularly its Finland-Swedish national
> variety, are essentially the same language.
Still Finnish is not one of the official languages of the Nordic Council.
>
> With a 5.5% Swedish-speaking minority, an autonomous province, the �land
> Islands, that is 100% Swedish speaking, and close to a millennium of
> cultural and political contacts with Sweden, Finland has the right to
> claim that Swedish is not just the language of Sweden, but also has roots
> in parts of Finland (�land, Kronoby, N�rp�s, the southern and western
> coastal regions and archipelagos) as deep as anywhere in Sweden.
>
> As to Russian, it should be equally obvious that the more Finns know about
> their huge eastern neighbor, its language and its culture, the better the
> Finns will be able to deal with it the next time it becomes overbearing,
> overconfident, or just plain ornery. Despite the fact that Russian
> presently has an unfavorable demographic development, there is no denying
> the facts that it is becoming a more important and prosperous factor in
> European integration. Presently, with roughly 280,000,000 speakers
> (primary plus second-language speakers in more than fifteen countries),
> Russian is the only major world language spoken in this part of the world.
>
>
> It is also puzzling that few Finns consider learning Estonian, even the
> basics, despite its being the only other national language that a Finn can
> learn with a minimum of effort on the basis of Finnish.
>
This attitude is changing but so slowly. The finnish big-brother
besserwisser mentality is the biggest obstacle.
Per Rønne
> It would be better to argue that Finnish, widely spoken indigenously in
> Northern Sweden as well as by a small minority in Norway and strongly
> influenced lexically, semantically, stylistically, and phraseologically by
> Swedish for centuries, is also a Nordic language by association.
The North Germanic languages Norwegian, Swedish and Danish that all
descend from the 'Danish tongue' of the Viking Age are mutually
intelligible.
Finnish isn't even an Indo-European language.
> If one is able to overlook the differences in pronunciation, grammar, and
> vocabulary, Finnish and Swedish, particularly its Finland-Swedish national
> variety, are essentially the same language.
In this way, Klingon could be said to be a variety of American English
too :-).
> With a 5.5% Swedish-speaking minority, an autonomous province, the �land
> Islands, that is 100% Swedish speaking, and close to a millennium of
> cultural and political contacts with Sweden, Finland has the right to
> claim that Swedish is not just the language of Sweden, but also has roots
> in parts of Finland (�land, Kronoby, N�rp�s, the southern and western
> coastal regions and archipelagos) as deep as anywhere in Sweden.
I do not argue for the removal of Finland from the Nordic family. I
think the Swedish-haters in Finland are those who in reality are
argueing for it ...
> As to Russian, it should be equally obvious that the more Finns know about
> their huge eastern neighbor, its language and its culture, the better the
> Finns will be able to deal with it the next time it becomes overbearing,
> overconfident, or just plain ornery. Despite the fact that Russian
> presently has an unfavorable demographic development, there is no denying
> the facts that it is becoming a more important and prosperous factor in
> European integration. Presently, with roughly 280,000,000 speakers
> (primary plus second-language speakers in more than fifteen countries),
> Russian is the only major world language spoken in this part of the world.
Being a Dane I can't ague against that. To us, German is the large
neighbouring languag that every child should learn. Second only to
English.
> It is also puzzling that few Finns consider learning Estonian, even the
> basics, despite its being the only other national language that a Finn can
> learn with a minimum of effort on the basis of Finnish.
Well, I thought that Estonian and Finnish were mutually intelligble as
are Danish, Norwegian and Swedish.
In Danish schools, Norwegian and Swedish are part of the subject
'Danish'. In my class in middle school we read a Norwegian play in
Norwegian [Nordahl Grieg's Nederlaget] and at my A-levels [oral
examination in the subject Danish] I was examined in a short-story by
the Swedish author August Strindberg. The text was /not/ translated, of
course.
Why doesn't Estonian form part of Finnish in Finnish schols?
--
Per Erik R�nne
Per Rønne
> One of the final nails hammered in the Nordic Council coffin was the
> stance taken to Baltic countries right after the disintegration of USSR.
> No hopes were given to their membership in the council, only vague
> "cooperation".
A cornerstone in the co-operation in the Nordic Council is our mutually
intelligible languages.
Estonnia has got a part in Danish history since 15th June 1219:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Denmark#The_legendary_origin_of_th
e_flag>
Estonia and Latvia has got part in Swedish history too - until the
countries were conquered by Imperial Russia.
Lithuania was part of the double-monarchy Poland-Lithuania and hasn't
even got a religious link to the Lutheran Nordic countries.
I don't see any of these states as natural members of the Nordic Council
- whose meetings should be held in Scandinavian, not English.
Eugene Holman
(=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Per_R=F8nne?=) wrote:
> Eugene Holman <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote:
>
> > It would be better to argue that Finnish, widely spoken indigenously in
> > Northern Sweden as well as by a small minority in Norway and strongly
> > influenced lexically, semantically, stylistically, and phraseologically by
> > Swedish for centuries, is also a Nordic language by association.
>
> The North Germanic languages Norwegian, Swedish and Danish that all
> descend from the 'Danish tongue' of the Viking Age are mutually
> intelligible.
Icelandic and Faroese, however, are not.
Language affinity is not just a matter of genealogy. English is a
genealogically a West Germanic language, but it has affiliations with
Scandinavian, French, and Latin that it make is something quite different
from Frisian and Dutch, its closest relatives from a purely genealogical
perspective.
> Finnish isn't even an Indo-European language.
True enough, but Finnish and the languages from which it has developed
have been in continuous contact with, and influenced by, neigboring
Indo-European languages (late Proto-Indo European, cf. -deksan/deks�n
'ten' in kahdeksan 'eight (lit. 2-10)' and yhdeks�n nine (lit. 1-10)',
porsas 'piglet'; Old Persian cf. sata 'hundred', marras 'death, in
marraskesi 'epidermis', marraskuu 'November, lit. 'death month'),
Proto-Baltic, cf. sisar 'sister', tyt�r 'daughter', hanhi 'goose', herne
'pea', hammas 'tooth', for more than 5,000 years. Finnish is one of the
best sources of empirical data about Proto-Germanic and Gothic: kunginas
'king' (cf. PGerm. *kuningaz), patja 'mattress' (cf. PGerm. *badja),
ruhtinas 'prince' (cf. PGerm. *druxtinaz, Swedish drottning), miekka
'sword (cf. Visigothic mekia)', kaunis 'beautiful' (cf. PGerm. *skauniz,
Visigothic skauns), �iti 'mother' (cf. Visigothic aithei), �yri 'tax
assessment unit, cf. Swedish �re, Icelandic eyrir', kaupunki 'city', cf.
Danish k�bing. This is only a handful of the hundreds of ancient Germanic,
Gothic, and Old Norse loanwords in Finnish. Ancient Slavic words, e.g.
m��r� 'amount', siisti 'tidy', and risti 'cross', are also found.
> > If one is able to overlook the differences in pronunciation, grammar, and
> > vocabulary, Finnish and Swedish, particularly its Finland-Swedish national
> > variety, are essentially the same language.
>
> In this way, Klingon could be said to be a variety of American English
> too :-).
Agreed. But Klingon is a made-up language, while Finnish and Swedish are
natural languages that have evolved in a symbiotic relationship over the
millennia.
> > With a 5.5% Swedish-speaking minority, an autonomous province, the �land
> > Islands, that is 100% Swedish speaking, and close to a millennium of
> > cultural and political contacts with Sweden, Finland has the right to
> > claim that Swedish is not just the language of Sweden, but also has roots
> > in parts of Finland (�land, Kronoby, N�rp�s, the southern and western
> > coastal regions and archipelagos) as deep as anywhere in Sweden.
>
> I do not argue for the removal of Finland from the Nordic family. I
> think the Swedish-haters in Finland are those who in reality are
> argueing for it ...
They are short-sighted and lack a historical perspective.
> > As to Russian, it should be equally obvious that the more Finns know about
> > their huge eastern neighbor, its language and its culture, the better the
> > Finns will be able to deal with it the next time it becomes overbearing,
> > overconfident, or just plain ornery. Despite the fact that Russian
> > presently has an unfavorable demographic development, there is no denying
> > the facts that it is becoming a more important and prosperous factor in
> > European integration. Presently, with roughly 280,000,000 speakers
> > (primary plus second-language speakers in more than fifteen countries),
> > Russian is the only major world language spoken in this part of the world.
>
> Being a Dane I can't ague against that. To us, German is the large
> neighbouring languag that every child should learn. Second only to
> English.
The Russians have shot themselves in the foot by maintaining a complex and
expensive visa regime. The increasingly prosperous and always interesting
greater St. Petersburg region has a population approaching six million and
it will be a few hours from Helsinki when the high-speed rail connection
presently under construction is finished in a few years. German is a far
smaller language than Russian is with respect to both number of speakers
and area where it is the default means of communication.
> > It is also puzzling that few Finns consider learning Estonian, even the
> > basics, despite its being the only other national language that a Finn can
> > learn with a minimum of effort on the basis of Finnish.
>
> Well, I thought that Estonian and Finnish were mutually intelligble as
> are Danish, Norwegian and Swedish.
Not quite. The relationship is more distant than that between Swedish and
Danish. Phonologically Estonian, like Danish, has undergone numerous
phonological changes involving the loss of unstressed syllables, thus
making it difficult for Finns to process when spoken. In addition to there
being many false friends � words such as Finnish linna 'castle'/Estonian
linn 'city' that have the same origin but have developed different
meanings (cf. rolig 'peaceful' in Danish, 'amusing' in Swedish) � Finnish,
in addition to having been strongly influenced by Swedish, tends to be
more puristic, while Estonian, even more strongly influenced by German, is
more receptive to loanwords and calques. Thus Finnish puhelin 'telephone'
is derived from the verb puhella 'to chat', while Estonian uses the
internationalism telefon. Finnish johdanto 'introduction' is a verbal noun
derived from johtaa 'to lead', while Estonian sissejuhatus 'introduction,
lit. into-leading' is a calque on German Einf�hrung.
> In Danish schools, Norwegian and Swedish are part of the subject
> 'Danish'. In my class in middle school we read a Norwegian play in
> Norwegian [Nordahl Grieg's Nederlaget] and at my A-levels [oral
> examination in the subject Danish] I was examined in a short-story by
> the Swedish author August Strindberg. The text was /not/ translated, of
> course.
>
> Why doesn't Estonian form part of Finnish in Finnish schols?
Something to that effect was done during the 1930s when Finns and
Estonians considered themselves to have more in common than they do today.
Estonians do spend some time in school learning about Finnish, but as far
as I know there is little reciprocity on the part of the Finns. On the
other hand, Finnish is like the archaic, puristic Estonian of folk poetry
and traditional fairy tales from the Estonian standpoint, while Estonian
is more genuinely foreign from the Finnish perspective. In many respects
Finnish is to Estonian like Icelandic is to Danish.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Per Rønne
> In article <1j7tqvj.1payeis1ukctcbN%p...@RQNNE.invalid>, sp...@RQNNE.dk
> (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Per_R=F8nne?=) wrote:
>
> > Eugene Holman <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote:
> >
> > > It would be better to argue that Finnish, widely spoken indigenously in
> > > Northern Sweden as well as by a small minority in Norway and strongly
> > > influenced lexically, semantically, stylistically, and phraseologically by
> > > Swedish for centuries, is also a Nordic language by association.
> >
> > The North Germanic languages Norwegian, Swedish and Danish that all
> > descend from the 'Danish tongue' of the Viking Age are mutually
> > intelligible.
>
> Icelandic and Faroese, however, are not.
I know. Every Faroese does however speak Danish and on Iceland they have
Danish [or Norwegian] as their first foreign language.
> Language affinity is not just a matter of genealogy. English is a
> genealogically a West Germanic language, but it has affiliations with
> Scandinavian, French, and Latin that it make is something quite different
> from Frisian and Dutch, its closest relatives from a purely genealogical
> perspective.
Yes, it has lots of loanwords.
> > I do not argue for the removal of Finland from the Nordic family. I
> > think the Swedish-haters in Finland are those who in reality are
> > argueing for it ...
>
> They are short-sighted and lack a historical perspective.
>
> > > As to Russian, it should be equally obvious that the more Finns know about
> > > their huge eastern neighbor, its language and its culture, the better the
> > > Finns will be able to deal with it the next time it becomes overbearing,
> > > overconfident, or just plain ornery. Despite the fact that Russian
> > > presently has an unfavorable demographic development, there is no denying
> > > the facts that it is becoming a more important and prosperous factor in
> > > European integration. Presently, with roughly 280,000,000 speakers
> > > (primary plus second-language speakers in more than fifteen countries),
> > > Russian is the only major world language spoken in this part of the world.
> >
> > Being a Dane I can't ague against that. To us, German is the large
> > neighbouring languag that every child should learn. Second only to
> > English.
>
> The Russians have shot themselves in the foot by maintaining a complex and
> expensive visa regime. The increasingly prosperous and always interesting
> greater St. Petersburg region has a population approaching six million and
> it will be a few hours from Helsinki when the high-speed rail connection
> presently under construction is finished in a few years. German is a far
> smaller language than Russian is with respect to both number of speakers
> and area where it is the default means of communication.
Well, in large parts of Central Europe [Poland etc] German is the /de
facto/ lingua franca of the region.
> > > It is also puzzling that few Finns consider learning Estonian, even the
> > > basics, despite its being the only other national language that a Finn can
> > > learn with a minimum of effort on the basis of Finnish.
> >
> > Well, I thought that Estonian and Finnish were mutually intelligble as
> > are Danish, Norwegian and Swedish.
>
> Not quite. The relationship is more distant than that between Swedish and
> Danish. Phonologically Estonian, like Danish, has undergone numerous
> phonological changes involving the loss of unstressed syllables, thus
> making it difficult for Finns to process when spoken. In addition to there
> being many false friends - words such as Finnish linna 'castle'/Estonian
> linn 'city' that have the same origin but have developed different
> meanings (cf. rolig 'peaceful' in Danish, 'amusing' in Swedish) - Finnish,
> in addition to having been strongly influenced by Swedish, tends to be
> more puristic, while Estonian, even more strongly influenced by German, is
> more receptive to loanwords and calques. Thus Finnish puhelin 'telephone'
> is derived from the verb puhella 'to chat', while Estonian uses the
> internationalism telefon. Finnish johdanto 'introduction' is a verbal noun
> derived from johtaa 'to lead', while Estonian sissejuhatus 'introduction,
> lit. into-leading' is a calque on German Einf�hrung.
OK.
> > In Danish schools, Norwegian and Swedish are part of the subject
> > 'Danish'. In my class in middle school we read a Norwegian play in
> > Norwegian [Nordahl Grieg's Nederlaget] and at my A-levels [oral
> > examination in the subject Danish] I was examined in a short-story by
> > the Swedish author August Strindberg. The text was /not/ translated, of
> > course.
> >
> > Why doesn't Estonian form part of Finnish in Finnish schols?
>
> Something to that effect was done during the 1930s when Finns and
> Estonians considered themselves to have more in common than they do today.
> Estonians do spend some time in school learning about Finnish, but as far
> as I know there is little reciprocity on the part of the Finns. On the
> other hand, Finnish is like the archaic, puristic Estonian of folk poetry
> and traditional fairy tales from the Estonian standpoint, while Estonian
> is more genuinely foreign from the Finnish perspective. In many respects
> Finnish is to Estonian like Icelandic is to Danish.
OK. Like 'Danish tongue' is to modern Danish.
I don't speak much Old Norse ...
--
Per Erik R�nne
Valtsu
> Eugene Holman <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote:
>
>> It would be better to argue that Finnish, widely spoken indigenously in
>> Northern Sweden as well as by a small minority in Norway and strongly
>> influenced lexically, semantically, stylistically, and phraseologically by
>> Swedish for centuries, is also a Nordic language by association.
>
> The North Germanic languages Norwegian, Swedish and Danish that all
> descend from the 'Danish tongue' of the Viking Age are mutually
> intelligible.
>
> Finnish isn't even an Indo-European language.
Nor are the indigenous sami languages.
>
>
> I do not argue for the removal of Finland from the Nordic family. I
> think the Swedish-haters in Finland are those who in reality are
> argueing for it ...
>
If the concept of the Nordic family means hegemony of scandinavian
languages I would like to see the name changed to Scandinavian family
and finns, samis etc kept out of it. I would like the Nordic family to
mean all people and all languages used in the whole of the fennoscandian
peninsula and all of the shores of the Baltic Sea.
J. Anderson
"Eugene Holman" <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:holman-1910...@holmaninmacbook.eng.helsinki.fi...
> ruhtinas 'prince' (cf. PGerm. *druxtinaz, Swedish drottning)
Why drottning? Why not simply drots, the male form? For instance Bo Jonsson
Grip was a drots. The title was in use periodically until 1809.
Fredrik :Ostman
> Why drottning? Why not simply drots, the male form?
"Drottning" comes from "drotten", meaning king. "Drots" is another,
lower, title.
--
Fredrik Östman
J. Anderson
"Fredrik :Ostman" <Fredrik...@siemens.com> wrote in message
news:3b81c81c-52f0-4734...@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
You are right. Let me rephrase my question:
Why drottning? Why not drots?
It seems to me that drots is closer to PGerm. *druxtinaz and Fi. ruhtinas
than drottning. Especially since even the meaning is more or less the same.
Per Rønne
> Per R�nne wrote:
> > Eugene Holman <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote:
> >
> >> It would be better to argue that Finnish, widely spoken indigenously in
> >> Northern Sweden as well as by a small minority in Norway and strongly
> >> influenced lexically, semantically, stylistically, and phraseologically by
> >> Swedish for centuries, is also a Nordic language by association.
> >
> > The North Germanic languages Norwegian, Swedish and Danish that all
> > descend from the 'Danish tongue' of the Viking Age are mutually
> > intelligible.
> >
> > Finnish isn't even an Indo-European language.
>
> Nor are the indigenous sami languages.
I know.
> > I do not argue for the removal of Finland from the Nordic family. I
> > think the Swedish-haters in Finland are those who in reality are
> > argueing for it ...
> >
> If the concept of the Nordic family means hegemony of scandinavian
> languages I would like to see the name changed to Scandinavian family
> and finns, samis etc kept out of it. I would like the Nordic family to
> mean all people and all languages used in the whole of the fennoscandian
> peninsula and all of the shores of the Baltic Sea.
Germans and Poles included?
We're not talking about a Scandinavian /hegemony/ but of a group of
countries with closely related cultures, religion, history and language.
Exactly as the German-speaking countries co-operate in quite a number of
ways.
--
Per Erik R�nne
Valtsu
> Valtsu <val...@stadissa.fi> wrote:
>
>> Per R�nne wrote:
>>> Eugene Holman <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It would be better to argue that Finnish, widely spoken indigenously in
>>>> Northern Sweden as well as by a small minority in Norway and strongly
>>>> influenced lexically, semantically, stylistically, and phraseologically by
>>>> Swedish for centuries, is also a Nordic language by association.
>>> The North Germanic languages Norwegian, Swedish and Danish that all
>>> descend from the 'Danish tongue' of the Viking Age are mutually
>>> intelligible.
>>>
>>> Finnish isn't even an Indo-European language.
>> Nor are the indigenous sami languages.
>
> I know.
>
>>> I do not argue for the removal of Finland from the Nordic family. I
>>> think the Swedish-haters in Finland are those who in reality are
>>> argueing for it ...
>>>
>> If the concept of the Nordic family means hegemony of scandinavian
>> languages I would like to see the name changed to Scandinavian family
>> and finns, samis etc kept out of it. I would like the Nordic family to
>> mean all people and all languages used in the whole of the fennoscandian
>> peninsula and all of the shores of the Baltic Sea.
>
> Germans and Poles included?
>
north and east of it. Good and bad. Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia
and even Russia. The concept of Nordic family doesn't need any political
organisations. EU is enough even though Norway is not a member (closely
knit ana way). Russia needs to be encouraged into closer political ties
with the EU.
The proposed gas pipe from Russia to Germany is quite a challenge for
the (bigger)Nordic family :-)
> We're not talking about a Scandinavian /hegemony/ but of a group of
> countries with closely related cultures, religion, history and language.
>
Sweden for instance has a good track record of supressing speakers of
other languages up to the 1950-s. The same goes for Norway and Finland
followed suite despite its own troubles with the swedish language untill
the end of swedish rule 200 yrs ago by giving a hard time for sami and
romani speakers while maintaining priviledged position of the swedish
language. Now at least the legislation has been changed. Still it does
not mean that "nordic" would be the same as "scandinavian" or that
organisations like the Nordic Council could use the nordic name as they
by their charter operate in scandinavian languages only. - Any way,
Nordic Council is politically useless in today's Europe except for
entertainment.
> Exactly as the German-speaking countries co-operate in quite a number of
> ways.
As should be.
Per Rønne
> Sweden for instance has a good track record of supressing speakers of
> other languages up to the 1950-s.
I know - just think of the old Danish-speaking Scania, Halland and
Blekinge ...
Valtsu
> Valtsu <val...@stadissa.fi> wrote:
>
>> Sweden for instance has a good track record of supressing speakers of
>> other languages up to the 1950-s.
>
> I know - just think of the old Danish-speaking Scania, Halland and
> Blekinge ...
That gave us the challenging dialect of sk�nska. I began to understand
it a little after working for a couple of years with two danes talking
"skandinaviska" with me.
Per Rønne
J. Anderson
>> J. Anderson <ander...@inbox.lv> wrote:
>>
>>> The same people who suggest that we should communicate in English
>>> (instead
>>> of Swedish) with our fellow Nordics obviously think that we can't use
>>> English in our dealings with the Russians.
> Of course big time business is conducted more and more in English between
> Finland and Sweden as well as between Finland and Russia. This is merely a
> fact of life in the globalised world. Personal contacts, tourism etc. is
> another thing. Just look what has happened in say Lappeenranta, Imatra or
> Joensuu, towns on the eastern border of Finland. Some 20 years ago the
> only few signs in Russian were more or less apartheid style "net blankes"
> signs limiting the number of russian clients in a shop at a time. Now it
> is totally different, russians are valued as good customers of importance
> to the economy.
It seems that young people in eastern Finland are not too interested in
meeting the new language demand. In today's Helsingin Sanomat there was a
report from Hamina (Fredrikshamn), next door to Russia, and none of the
interviewed teenagers knew a word of Russian -- they didn't even know
anybody else who'd understand Russian.
Some statistics (from 2007) were quoted. On a national level more than 90%
of our ground school pupils choose English as their first foreign language,
the teaching of which starts in the 3rd school year. One fourth take an
optional foreign language (usually German) in their 5th school year. Swedish
begins (for all) in the 7th school year. On the upper level (the last three
years) only 13% study a third language (after English and Swedish): 6%
German, 5% French and 0.6% Russian.
It's easy to say for our Scandinavian neighbours that all Finns should learn
Swedish. But it's not fair that only Finns should make this extra effort. So
let's hear what sort of scholarly sacrifice Danes, Swedes and Norwegians are
ready to make in order to reciprocate. How about y'all learning
Greenlandish?
Per Rønne
> It's easy to say for our Scandinavian neighbours that all Finns should learn
> Swedish. But it's not fair that only Finns should make this extra effort. So
> let's hear what sort of scholarly sacrifice Danes, Swedes and Norwegians are
> ready to make in order to reciprocate. How about y'all learning
> Greenlandish?
Certainly not. There are 50,000 inhabitants on Greenland most of whom
speak Danish. And quite a number of those living on the island don't
speak Greenlandish themselves.
It would be more important for Scandinavians to learn the language of
Pericles ... still an optional subject in Danmark's 3-year Sixth Form
College.
J. Anderson
""Per R�nne"" <p...@RQNNE.invalid> wrote in message
news:1j7vwtp.174899ad96yaxN%p...@RQNNE.invalid...
> J. Anderson <ander...@inbox.lv> wrote:
>
>> It's easy to say for our Scandinavian neighbours that all Finns should
>> learn
>> Swedish. But it's not fair that only Finns should make this extra effort.
>> So
>> let's hear what sort of scholarly sacrifice Danes, Swedes and Norwegians
>> are
>> ready to make in order to reciprocate. How about y'all learning
>> Greenlandish?
>
> Certainly not. There are 50,000 inhabitants on Greenland most of whom
> speak Danish. And quite a number of those living on the island don't
> speak Greenlandish themselves.
>
> It would be more important for Scandinavians to learn the language of
> Pericles ... still an optional subject in Danmark's 3-year Sixth Form
> College.
I thought Pericles spoke Danish:
"Du, Perikles, hvorn�r smager en Tuborg bedst?" "-Hvergang!"
Valtsu
> "Valtsu" <val...@stadissa.fi> wrote in message
> news:YkTCm.30045$La7....@uutiset.elisa.fi...
>
>>> J. Anderson <ander...@inbox.lv> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The same people who suggest that we should communicate in English
>>>> (instead
>>>> of Swedish) with our fellow Nordics obviously think that we can't use
>>>> English in our dealings with the Russians.
>
>> Of course big time business is conducted more and more in English between
>> Finland and Sweden as well as between Finland and Russia. This is merely a
>> fact of life in the globalised world. Personal contacts, tourism etc. is
>> another thing. Just look what has happened in say Lappeenranta, Imatra or
>> Joensuu, towns on the eastern border of Finland. Some 20 years ago the
>> only few signs in Russian were more or less apartheid style "net blankes"
>> signs limiting the number of russian clients in a shop at a time. Now it
>> is totally different, russians are valued as good customers of importance
>> to the economy.
>
> It seems that young people in eastern Finland are not too interested in
> meeting the new language demand. In today's Helsingin Sanomat there was a
> report from Hamina (Fredrikshamn), next door to Russia, and none of the
> interviewed teenagers knew a word of Russian -- they didn't even know
> anybody else who'd understand Russian.
>
have learned russian and use it to buy cheap booze and cigarrettes from
russian truckdrivers waiting for loading at Hamina harbour or waiting
queueing at the border. When need emerges the willingness to learn a
language arises.
> Some statistics (from 2007) were quoted. On a national level more than 90%
> of our ground school pupils choose English as their first foreign language,
> the teaching of which starts in the 3rd school year. One fourth take an
> optional foreign language (usually German) in their 5th school year. Swedish
> begins (for all) in the 7th school year. On the upper level (the last three
> years) only 13% study a third language (after English and Swedish): 6%
> German, 5% French and 0.6% Russian.
>
I find the 13% quite low, is it really so? Couldn't find any statistics.
> It's easy to say for our Scandinavian neighbours that all Finns should learn
> Swedish. But it's not fair that only Finns should make this extra effort. So
> let's hear what sort of scholarly sacrifice Danes, Swedes and Norwegians are
> ready to make in order to reciprocate. How about y'all learning
> Greenlandish?
>
Even Icelandish would be overwhelmingly difficult not to speak of Sami.
:-)
Per Rønne
Now, you're talking about Storm P:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storm_P>
One of his major vagabonds is named Perikles.
Of course I was talking about the Athenian statesman Pericles who lived
in the 400s BC.
J. Anderson
""Per R�nne"" <p...@RQNNE.invalid> wrote in message
Sorry, I was only trying to be funny. How stupid of me!
J. Anderson
> J. Anderson wrote:
>> "Valtsu" <val...@stadissa.fi> wrote in message
>> news:YkTCm.30045$La7....@uutiset.elisa.fi...
> YLE Morning TV told today that there is one group of youngsters, who have
> learned russian and use it to buy cheap booze and cigarrettes from russian
> truckdrivers waiting for loading at Hamina harbour or waiting queueing at
> the border. When need emerges the willingness to learn a language arises.
Funny, YLE must have stolen it from HS. The same kids were mentioned in the
article, but there it said that *not even* the possibility to buy booze
seems to be enough of an incentive to make them learn Russian.
>> Some statistics (from 2007) were quoted. On a national level more than
>> 90% of our ground school pupils choose English as their first foreign
>> language, the teaching of which starts in the 3rd school year. One fourth
>> take an optional foreign language (usually German) in their 5th school
>> year. Swedish begins (for all) in the 7th school year. On the upper level
>> (the last three years) only 13% study a third language (after English and
>> Swedish): 6% German, 5% French and 0.6% Russian.
>>
> I find the 13% quite low, is it really so? Couldn't find any statistics.
That's what it said. Perhaps it should be added to the 25% who chose an A2
language in their 5th year?
Per Rønne
> ""Per R�nne"" <p...@RQNNE.invalid> wrote in message
> news:1j7vyzg.pcgxguw3m7koN%p...@RQNNE.invalid...
> > J. Anderson <ander...@inbox.lv> wrote:
> >
> >> ""Per R�nne"" <p...@RQNNE.invalid> wrote in message
> >> news:1j7vwtp.174899ad96yaxN%p...@RQNNE.invalid...
> >> > It would be more important for Scandinavians to learn the language of
> >> > Pericles ... still an optional subject in Danmark's 3-year Sixth Form
> >> > College.
> >>
> >> I thought Pericles spoke Danish:
> >> "Du, Perikles, hvorn�r smager en Tuborg bedst?" "-Hvergang!"
> >
> > Now, you're talking about Storm P:
> >
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storm_P>
> >
> > One of his major vagabonds is named Perikles.
> >
> > Of course I was talking about the Athenian statesman Pericles who lived
> > in the 400s BC.
>
> Sorry, I was only trying to be funny. How stupid of me!
Of course you were "trying to" be funny, and you /were/ funny.
However, soc.culture.baltics and soc.culturenordic are two international
newsgroups and I guess few non-Scandinavians have ever heard about Storm
P.
To translate Storm P's words:
"Hey, Pericles, when does a Tuborg Beer taste best?" "Every time!"
And in this world Pericles i a vagabond ...
lorad
> Helsingin Sanomat today has an article written by Pentti Hyttinen, the
> director of the Region of Northern Karelia (i.e. the Finnish side of the
> border) on the importance of russian in Finland in comparison with swedish.
>
> In Finland everyone has to study swedish in school due to historical
> reasons even though the swedish-speaking part of the population is only
> some 5,5% and concentrates on the southern and western coastlines. This
> is widely unpopular especially in the eastern and northern parts of the
> country where swedish is seldom heard. Some time ago the swedish
> language was dropped from the list of mandatory subjects in the
> matriculation exam, but still kids have to try to stay awake during
> swedish lessons.
>
> Russian also is an unpopular language. In a quarter of a century the
> number of kids studying seriously russian in school, i.e. taking russian
> in their metriculation tests, has dropped from some 2.000 to less than a
> thousand.
>
> English by far is the most popular language in school followed by a wide
> variety of different languages. The normal Finn in school studies two
> so-called domestic languages (finnish and swedish) and two foreign
> languages (english and something else), some take three foreign languages.
>
> Mr Hyttinen would like to declare swedish and russian as alternatives
> for a compulsory language, as the number of russian speakers is
> shrinking too fast to meet the demands of trade and industry.
>
> http://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/artikkeli/Pohjois-Karjalan+maakuntajohtaja+R...jä/1135250109099
Your title is erroneous..
Russian is NOT more important than Swedish.
As your article states.. Swedish is being taught as styatndard
curriculum - while russian is not.
Valtsu
> "Valtsu" <val...@stadissa.fi> wrote in message
> news:qEgDm.30347$La7....@uutiset.elisa.fi...
>> J. Anderson wrote:
>>> "Valtsu" <val...@stadissa.fi> wrote in message
>>> news:YkTCm.30045$La7....@uutiset.elisa.fi...
>
>> YLE Morning TV told today that there is one group of youngsters, who have
>> learned russian and use it to buy cheap booze and cigarrettes from russian
>> truckdrivers waiting for loading at Hamina harbour or waiting queueing at
>> the border. When need emerges the willingness to learn a language arises.
>
> Funny, YLE must have stolen it from HS. The same kids were mentioned in the
> article, but there it said that *not even* the possibility to buy booze
> seems to be enough of an incentive to make them learn Russian.
>
wrong. They were citing the HS article any way.
>>> Some statistics (from 2007) were quoted. On a national level more than
>>> 90% of our ground school pupils choose English as their first foreign
>>> language, the teaching of which starts in the 3rd school year. One fourth
>>> take an optional foreign language (usually German) in their 5th school
>>> year. Swedish begins (for all) in the 7th school year. On the upper level
>>> (the last three years) only 13% study a third language (after English and
>>> Swedish): 6% German, 5% French and 0.6% Russian.
>>>
>> I find the 13% quite low, is it really so? Couldn't find any statistics.
>
> That's what it said. Perhaps it should be added to the 25% who chose an A2
> language in their 5th year?
>
This sounds more correct.
Hiski
> Eugene Holman <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote:
> > Islands, that is 100% Swedish speaking,
Some 82 per cent actually, if memory serves, but only Swedish has
official status.
> Well, I thought that Estonian and Finnish were mutually intelligble as
> are Danish, Norwegian and Swedish.
Where did you get such an idea? Finns hearing Estonian understand a
familiar word every now and then, but very seldom a full sentence.
North Estonians of my age group (40) speak Finnish very well, as they
grew up illegally watching Finnish TV in the Soviet era, but younger
ones don't - they are interviewed in English on Finnish TV.
Hiski
Per Rønne
> On 19 loka, 09:38, p...@RQNNE.invalid (Per R�nne) wrote:
> > Eugene Holman <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote:
> > > With a 5.5% Swedish-speaking minority, an autonomous province, the �land
> > > Islands, that is 100% Swedish speaking,
>
> Some 82 per cent actually, if memory serves, but only Swedish has
> official status.
>
> > Well, I thought that Estonian and Finnish were mutually intelligble as
> > are Danish, Norwegian and Swedish.
>
> Where did you get such an idea? Finns hearing Estonian understand a
> familiar word every now and then, but very seldom a full sentence.
> North Estonians of my age group (40) speak Finnish very well, as they
> grew up illegally watching Finnish TV in the Soviet era, but younger
> ones don't - they are interviewed in English on Finnish TV.
There seem to be problems with young Danes understanding Swedish too -
we've now got more than twenty television channels with at least Danish
subtitles. When I grew up we had only one - and two Swedish channels.
But another Finn in this thread wrote that Estonian and Finnish was like
Danish and Icelandic ... in many ways Icelandic is 'Danish tongue', the
common language spoken by the Vikings a millenium ago.
--
Per Erik R�nne
Hiski
> But another Finn in this thread wrote that Estonian and Finnish was like
> Danish and Icelandic ... in many ways Icelandic is 'Danish tongue', the
> common language spoken by the Vikings a millenium ago.
The person who wrote that was Eugene Holman, an American linguist in
Finland. It is a valid view from a historical perspective, but I would
rather compare Finnish and Estonian to German and Dutch.
Hiski
Per Rønne
> On 20 loka, 18:51, p...@RQNNE.invalid (Per R�nne) wrote:
> > But another Finn in this thread wrote that Estonian and Finnish was like
> > Danish and Icelandic ... in many ways Icelandic is 'Danish tongue', the
> > common language spoken by the Vikings a millenium ago.
>
> The person who wrote that was Eugene Holman, an American linguist in
> Finland. It is a valid view from a historical perspective, but I would
> rather compare Finnish and Estonian to German and Dutch.
OK - and Dutch seem to be a Nether German dialect ...
J. Anderson
"Hiski" <his...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b571fe38-a337-4764...@p20g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
> ... I would rather compare Finnish and Estonian
> to German and Dutch.
How about to Spanish and Portuguese? Or to Polish and Czech? To Lithuanian
and Latvian? But actually I think Icelandic and Norwegian is an adequate
pair. Hvorfor g� over bekken etter vann?
Hiski
> How about to Spanish and Portuguese? Or to Polish and Czech? To Lithuanian
> and Latvian? But actually I think Icelandic and Norwegian is an adequate
Spanish / Portuguese is not a very appealing choice because AFAIK
neither of them is significantly more "old-fashioned" than the other,
the way Standard Finnish is more conservative than Estonian, and
German more so than Dutch. The next two pairs I know even less about.
Norwegian I dare not touch, because it has (at least) two official
versions.
Hiski
Eugene Holman
<b571fe38-a337-4764...@p20g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>, Hiski
<his...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 20 loka, 18:51, p...@RQNNE.invalid (Per R=F8nne) wrote:
> > But another Finn in this thread wrote that Estonian and Finnish was like
> > Danish and Icelandic ... in many ways Icelandic is 'Danish tongue', the
> > common language spoken by the Vikings a millenium ago.
>
> The person who wrote that was Eugene Holman, an American linguist in
> Finland. It is a valid view from a historical perspective, but I would
> rather compare Finnish and Estonian to German and Dutch.
Both comparisons are valid.
Icelandic, Dutch, and Finnish are phonologically conservative, while
Danish, German, and Estonian are phonologically innovating.
Icelandic, Dutch (to a certain extent), and Finnish are lexically
conservative, while Danish, German (to a certain extent), and Estonian are
lexically innovating and quite open to loanwords and calques.
My subjective experience is that the overall difference between Estonian
and Finnish is not quite as great as the difference between Dutch and
German, but certainly greater than the difference between Danish and
Swedish. A person who can read Swedish has little difficulty reading
Danish, but a person who can read Finnish has considerable difficulty
reading Estonian, just as a person who can read German has considerable
difficulty reading Dutch. Many of the Estonian vs. Finnish differences
involve intellectual vocabulary; Estonian and (greater Helsinki-area)
Finnish-speaking five-year olds have little difficulty understanding each
other's speech, partially due to the fact that many sound changes that
have taken place in southern Finnish have also taken place in Estonian,
but are not reflected in Finnish orthography: The Estonian words for 'one'
and 'two' are �ks and kaks, Finnish orthography has yksi and kaksi, but in
the greater Helsinki area we tend to say yks and kaks. The non-standard
Finnish pronunciations are not identical with those of Estonian, where
compensatory lengthening has resulted in [yksi] > [yk:s] and [kaksi] >
[kak:s], while Finnish, which has undergone apocope without compensatory
lengthening, has [yks] and [kaks].
To some extent, Finnish strikes Estonian speakers as Icelandic, and to a
far lesser extent, Swedish, strikes Danish speakers: archaic, puristic,
and unnecessarily rustic.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Valtsu
> "Hiski" <his...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:b571fe38-a337-4764...@p20g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
>
>> ... I would rather compare Finnish and Estonian
>> to German and Dutch.
>
> How about to Spanish and Portuguese? Or to Polish and Czech?
Having had the pleasure of working for a few years in both Prague and
Lisbon and having had to learn the local languges a bit I would say that
both spoken and written Portuguese and Czech are much more closer to
Spanish and Polish than Finnish is to Estonian.
To Lithuanian
> and Latvian?
Don't know the languages enough to have any idea.
But actually I think Icelandic and Norwegian is an adequate
> pair. Hvorfor g� over bekken etter vann?
>
Could be so.
David Ames
> Finnish is to Estonian like Icelandic is to Danish.
>
> Regards,
> Eugene Holman
Surely I believed that Icelandic had to be derived from Old Norse. I
identified a woman with the name RogNESS as being of Norwegian
extraction because I knew that LaxNESS was an Icelandic author. She
was surprised, because many people of Norwegian background had no idea
her name was Norwegian.
David Ames
Fredrik :Ostman
> > Finnish is to Estonian like Icelandic is to Danish.
>-----< David Ames >
> I believed that Icelandic had to be derived from Old Norse.
And Finnish from Old Balto-Finnic.
--
Fredrik Östman
sigvaldi
> On Oct 19, 3:16 am, hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:
>
>
> > Regards,
> > Eugene Holman
>
> Surely I believed thatIcelandichad to be derived from Old Norse.
Icelandic is the modern version of Old Norse, Danish is derived from
Old Norse too.
sigvaldi
> Eugene Holman <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote:
> > > > Northern Sweden as well as by a small minority in Norway and strongly
> > > > influenced lexically, semantically, stylistically, and phraseologically by
> > > > Swedish for centuries, is also a Nordic language by association.
>
> > > The North Germanic languages Norwegian, Swedish and Danish that all
> > > descend from the 'Danish tongue' of the Viking Age are mutually
> > > intelligible.
>
>
> I know. Every Faroese does however speak Danish and onIcelandthey have
> Danish [or Norwegian] as their first foreign language.
Danish has, since the late 1980´s been relegated to second place here
in Iceland, when I was in school we started Danish at 9 or 10 and
English at 12 years of age, now this has been reversed.
Norwegian or Swedish are studied only if the child had spent time in
those countries.
>
Eugene Holman
<92a0638c-9513-47c5...@d21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>, David
Ames <world...@juno.com> wrote:
> On Oct 19, 3:16=A0am, hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:
>
> > Finnish is to Estonian like Icelandic is to Danish.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Eugene Holman
>
> Surely I believed that Icelandic had to be derived from Old Norse.
I was speaking as a linguistic typologist.
> I identified a woman with the name RogNESS as being of Norwegian
> extraction because I knew that LaxNESS was an Icelandic author. She
> was surprised, because many people of Norwegian background had no idea
> her name was Norwegian.
The element -ness is an orthographical variant of -n�s/-n�s/-nes 'narrow
stip of land, isthmus', for details, see
http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A6s_%28halv%C3%B8%29. So, if Rogness was
her maiden name, she could have been of any Scandinavian extraction.
Although Icelandic and Danish are Germanic and Indo-European while Finnish
and Estonian are Baltic-Finnic and Uralic, Icelandic and Finnish share two
important fatures that set them off from their sister langauges, Danish
and Estonian, respectively.
First of all, Icelandic and Finnish are lingistically extremely
conservative while Danish and Estonian are linguistically extremely
innovating. Thus, for example, Icelandic and Finnish preserve instressed
vowels and syllables that Danish and Estonian have lost or reduced:
Icelandic Danish Finnish Estonian
hundur hund koira koer 'dog'
drengur dreng poika poeg 'boy'
fj�rir fire nelj� neli 'four'
Icelandic retains the old Germanic inflectional system of four case and
three gender oppositions intact for nouns and adjectives, while Danish has
completely lost it:
Icelandic: Hann r�ttir m�r h�ndina. 'He gives me his hand.'
Danish: Han giver mig sin h�nd.
Icelandic retains a distinction between aSg [=accusative singular] an dSg
[=dative singular]: mig 'me aSg' vs. m�r 'me dSg', while the two tases
have fallen together in Danish: mig 'me aSg/dSg'. Icelandic distinguishes
between definite nSg [nominative singular] and aSg: h�ndin 'the hand nSg'
vs h�ndina 'the hand aAg', Danish has last this distinction h�nden 'the
hand'.
Finnish and Estonian have not diverged as much with respect to their case
sstems, neither language has gender, Finnish has fifteen cases, Estonian
fourteen. Nevertheless, the Estonian case system has undergone some
simplification due to sound changes having made it impossible to make case
distinctions still made by Finnish for certain noun types:
Finnish: S�in kalaa. 'I was eating fish.' S�in leip��. 'I was eating
bread.'
Estonian: S�in kala. 'I was eating fish.' S�in leiba. 'I was eating bread.'
Finnish: S�in kalan. 'I ate the fish up.' S�in leiv�n. 'I ate the bread up.'
Estonian: S�in kala �ra. 'I ate the fish up.' S�in leiva �ra. 'I ate the
bread up.'
Estonian does no allow oppositions between long and short vowels in
unstressed syllables, and it has lost most word final -n's. Thus the
three-way distinction between kala 'fish nSg', kalaa 'fish pSg [p =
partitive]' and kalan 'fish gSg' that Finnish makes cannot be marked
morphologically for this class of nouns in Estonian, where all three forms
would be kala. Compare this with the forms for 'bread', a noun of a
different class. Here both Finnish and Estonian distinguish between all
three forms mophologically:
Finnish Estonian
nSg leip� leib [lei:p]
gSg leiv�n leiva [leiva]
pSg leip�� leiba [lei:pa]
Since the Estonian forms are not always unambiguous, the speakers of the
laguage have solved the problem by using the particle �ra 'up <in the
aspectual sense>' to indicate the difference.
Icelandic verb morphology is still maintains a six way opposition of three
persons and two numbers:
elska 'to love'
�g elska vi� elskum
th� elskar thi� elski�
hann elskar th�r elska
while Danish has totally obliterated such these oppositions:
elske 'to love'
jeg elsker vi elsker
du elsker I elsker
han elsker de elsker
Estonian has not reduced the system as radically as Finnish, but the same
trend is clearly evident:
Finnish
n�hd� 'to see'
min� n�en me n�emme
sin� n�et te n�ette
h�n n�kee he n�kev�t
Estonian n�gema 'to see'
mina n�en meie n�eme
sina n�ed teie n�ete
tema n�eb nemad n�evad
Finnish still has gradationally strong forms in the third person singular
and plural, while Estonian, like Danish, has generalized a single form
throughout the paradigm.
Tentative conclusion: Icelandic and Finnish have retained a lot of
linguistic baggage from the past that Danish and Estonian have shed.
Secondly, Icelandic and Finnish, as opposed to Danish and Estonian, have
developed similar strategies for interaction with other languages.
All languages have a constant need to augment their inventory of
morphemes. Icelandic and Finnish generally do this by utilizing their own
word-building resources, while Danish and Estonian tend to borrow, either
directly ba adapting foreign words or indirectly by calquing them. It is
well known that when faced with the need to create a word meaning
'telephone', the Icelanders chose s�mi, a derivative of a word meaning
'thread'. The Finns did something similar: puhelin telephone' is a
derivative of puhella 'to chat', itself a derivative of puhua 'to speak'.
Estonian and Danish both adapted the Greek-based international neologism
telefon.
A text in Danish or Estonian typically contains numerous
internationalisms, although both languages also show a tendency to closely
calque them: Estonian sissejuhatus 'introduction, cf. sisse 'into' +
juhatus 'leading', German Ein + f�hrung, Latin intro + ductio, Greek eis +
agog�; Danish indf�ring is built on the same pattern. Icelandic inngangur
'introduction', in turn, is based on a root meaning 'to go', not 'to
lead', Finnish johdanto 'introduction' is based on the root johtaa 'to
lead', but has no morpheme meaning 'into'. The users of both languages
have avoided constructing their words according to the, ultimately Greek,
into + leading model. Many similar examples could be produced showing that
Icelanic and Finnish tend to use their own resources to augment their
lexical stock, while Danish and Estonian are more receptive to direct
(borrowing) and indirect (calquing) foreign influence.
Overall conclusion: Icelandic and Finnish, although unrelated
genealogically, are both linguistically conservative, in addition to which
they tend to favor utilizing their own word-building resources to augment
their lexicons rather than borrow or calque. Danish and Estonian. on the
other hand, are linguistically innovative, having radically innovated in
both phonology and morphology, in addition to which they are more open to
augmenting their lexicons by borrowing or following foreign models.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Per Rønne
> On Oct 19, 8:26 am, p...@RQNNE.invalid (Per R�nne) wrote:
> > Eugene Holman <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote:
> > > In article <1j7tqvj.1payeis1ukctcbN%...@RQNNE.invalid>, s...@RQNNE.dk
> > > (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Per_R=F8nne?=) wrote:
> >
> > > > Eugene Holman <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote:
> >
> > > > > It would be better to argue that Finnish, widely spoken
> > > > > indigenously in Northern Sweden as well as by a small minority in
> > > > > Norway and strongly influenced lexically, semantically,
> > > > > stylistically, and phraseologically by Swedish for centuries, is
> > > > > also a Nordic language by association.
> >
> > > > The North Germanic languages Norwegian, Swedish and Danish that all
> > > > descend from the 'Danish tongue' of the Viking Age are mutually
> > > > intelligible.
> >
> > >Icelandic and Faroese, however, are not.
> >
> > I know. Every Faroese does however speak Danish and on Iceland they have
> > Danish [or Norwegian] as their first foreign language.
>
> Danish has, since the late 1980�s been relegated to second place here
> in Iceland, when I was in school we started Danish at 9 or 10 and
> English at 12 years of age, now this has been reversed.
OK.
> Norwegian or Swedish are studied only if the child had spent time in
> those countries.
Per Rønne
> On Nov 15, 10:22 pm, David Ames <worldrec...@juno.com> wrote:
> > On Oct 19, 3:16 am, hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:
> >
> > > Finnish is to Estonian likeIcelandicis to Danish.
> > Surely I believed that Icelandic had to be derived from Old Norse.
>
> Icelandic is the modern version of Old Norse, Danish is derived from
> Old Norse too.
And a millenium ago the Scandinavians called their common language
"Danish tongue" ...
Eugene Holman
<92a0638c-9513-47c5...@d21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>, David
Ames <world...@juno.com> wrote:
> On Oct 19, 3:16=A0am, hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:
>
> > Finnish is to Estonian like Icelandic is to Danish.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Eugene Holman
>
> Surely I believed that Icelandic had to be derived from Old Norse.
I was speaking as a linguistic typologist. Icelandic is one of the modern,
localized versions of Old Norse.
> I identified a woman with the name RogNESS as being of Norwegian
> extraction because I knew that LaxNESS was an Icelandic author. She
> was surprised, because many people of Norwegian background had no idea
> her name was Norwegian.
The element -ness is an orthographical variant of -n�s/-n�s/-nes/-ness
'peninsula, headland, cape', for details, see
http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A6s_%28halv%C3%B8%29. So, if Rogness was
her maiden name, she could have been of any Scandinavian extraction. Note
that the element also occurs in Scottish place names (e.g. Inverness,
Caithness, Midness), evidently in places that once had Scandinavian
settlers.
Per Rønne
> Icelandic Danish Finnish Estonian
> hundur hund koira koer 'dog'
> drengur dreng poika poeg 'boy
Swedish 'pojke'. Has Swedish got the word from Finnish - or is it linked
to English 'boy'?
OED:
boy, n.1
[ME. boi, boy, of obscure origin: app. identical with E. Frisian boi,
boy ''young gentleman'; considered by many to be identical with Du. boef
(boef) 'knave', MDu. boeve, prob. (according to Franck) adopted from
MHG. buobe (in mod.G. bube 'knave', dial. 'boy, lad').
It has been proposed to explain bo-y as dim. of bo, and this short for
*bobo the W.Ger. type of buobe, bube. The latter is actually found in
MHG. only from about the 14th c. Its Teutonic standing is doubtful: see
Grimm, Schade, Kluge. (The original sense being uncertain, the order of
senses here observed is only provisional.)]
> Icelandic retains the old Germanic inflectional system of four case and
> three gender oppositions intact for nouns and adjectives, while Danish has
> completely lost it:
>
> Icelandic: Hann r�ttir m�r h�ndina. 'He gives me his hand.'
> Danish: Han giver mig sin h�nd.
Well, we do have two genders ['uni-sex' and neuter] and three cases:
nominative, accusative and genitive. Etymologicall, however, Danish
accusative is a merger of accusative and dative - and it is only used in
personal pronouns. Actually, you gave an example of it yourself: "mig"
meaning "me".
> Icelandic retains a distinction between aSg [=accusative singular] an dSg
> [=dative singular]: mig 'me aSg' vs. m�r 'me dSg', while the two tases
> have fallen together in Danish: mig 'me aSg/dSg'. Icelandic distinguishes
> between definite nSg [nominative singular] and aSg: h�ndin 'the hand nSg'
> vs h�ndina 'the hand aAg', Danish has last this distinction h�nden 'the
> hand'.
And mentioned the personal pronouns afterwards ...
sigvaldi
> sigvaldi <sigv...@binet.is> wrote:
> > On Nov 15, 10:22 pm, David Ames <worldrec...@juno.com> wrote:
> > > On Oct 19, 3:16 am, hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:
>
> > > > Finnish is to Estonian likeIcelandicis to Danish.
>
> >Icelandicis the modern version of Old Norse, Danish is derived from
> > Old Norse too.
>
> And a millenium ago the Scandinavians called their common language
> "Danish tongue" ...
It was one of the names some of them used, actually.
Fredrik :Ostman
> Swedish 'pojke'. Has Swedish got the word from Finnish
That's what we learn in school.
--
Fredrik Östman
Per Rønne
> >-----< Per R�nne >
> > Swedish 'pojke'. Has Swedish got the word from Finnish
>
> That's what we learn in school.
But you've still got the old Scandinavian word 'dreng', "young warrior
of noble blood". In 'dr�ng'.
They've even got it in English 'dreng' together with 'thegn'.
Eugene Holman
<9f0e8842-fd21-40f7...@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
"Fredrik :Ostman" <Fredrik...@siemens.com> wrote:
> >-----< Per R=F8nne >
> > Swedish 'pojke'. Has Swedish got the word from Finnish
>
> That's what we learn in school.
Swedish has several words for boy. I remember a mnemonic jingle from when
I was learning Sweish:
Gosse, pojke, grabb och kille,
kan man kalla lille Ville.
The Baltic-Finnic Finnish poika 'boy, son'/Estonian poeg 'son' - poiss
'boy', the latter borrowed by Latvian as puisis 'boy, lad', is usually
regarded as being of Finno-Ugric origin, cf. Erzya bujo 'cousin', Mari p�-
'boy', Udmurt pi 'boy, son', Komi pi 'boy, son', Khanty p@x 'boy, son',
Mansi pig 'boy, son', Hungarian fi� 'boy, son' (Source: *Osnovy
finno-ugorskogo jazykoznanie. Voprosy proiskhozhdenija i razvitija
finno-ugorskikh jazykov* ['Fundamentals of Finno-Ugric lingustics.
Questions of the origin and development of the Finno-Ugric languages*. pg.
413, �14. Moscow 1974).
> That's what we learn in school.
It is wonderful that they bother to teach this. Finnish has thousands of
Swedish loanwords, e.g. kaupunki (cf. k�ping) 'city', �yri (cf. �re) 'tax
assessment unit', tuoli (cf. stol) 'chair', koulu (cf. skola) 'school',
l��ni (cf. l�n) 'province', katu (cf. gata) 'street', laki (cf. lag)
'law', whereas (standard) Swedish has few Finnish loans other than pojke
'boy'. The best known ones are probable hyvens (cf. hyv�ns�) 'nice', k�nga
(cf. kenk�) '[a kind of short-legged] boot,
cf.http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A4nga', and kola av (cf.
kuolla/kuole- 'to die') 'to die, to kick the bucket [familiar style]'. The
relationship is extremely asymmetrical.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Eugene Holman
<9f0e8842-fd21-40f7...@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
"Fredrik :Ostman" <Fredrik...@siemens.com> wrote:
> >-----< Per R=F8nne >
> > Swedish 'pojke'. Has Swedish got the word from Finnish
>
> That's what we learn in school.
Swedish has several words for boy. I remember a mnemonic jingle from when
I was learning Swedish:
Gosse, pojke, grabb och kille,
kan man kalla lille Ville.
The Baltic-Finnic Finnish poika 'boy, son'/Estonian poeg 'son' - poiss
'boy', the latter borrowed by Latvian as puisis 'boy, lad', is usually
regarded as being of Finno-Ugric origin, cf. Erzya bujo 'cousin', Mari p�-
'boy', Udmurt pi 'boy, son', Komi pi 'boy, son', Khanty p@x 'boy, son',
Mansi pig 'boy, son', Hungarian fi� 'boy, son' (Source: *Osnovy
finno-ugorskogo jazykoznanie. Voprosy proiskhozhdenija i razvitija
finno-ugorskikh jazykov* ['Fundamentals of Finno-Ugric lingustics.
Questions of the origin and development of the Finno-Ugric languages']. pg.
413, �14. Moscow 1974).
> That's what we learn in school.
It is wonderful that they bother to teach this. Finnish has thousands of
Swedish loanwords, e.g. kaupunki (cf. k�ping) 'city', �yri (cf. �re) 'tax
assessment unit', tuoli (cf. stol) 'chair', koulu (cf. skola) 'school',
l��ni (cf. l�n) 'province', katu (cf. gata) 'street', laki (cf. lag)
'law', whereas (standard) Swedish has few Finnish loans other than pojke
'boy'. The best known ones are probably hyvens (cf. hyv�ns�) 'nice', k�nga
(cf. kenk�) '[a kind of short-legged] boot,
cf.http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A4nga', and kola av (cf.
kuolla/kuole- 'to die') 'to die, to kick the bucket [familiar style]'. The
relationship is extremely asymmetrical. Finland Swedish, of course, has
numerous Finnish loans, such as in Det var hemskt kiva. 'It was terribly
nice.', with kiva 'nice', ultimately deriving from a Russianized
pronunciation of Finnish hyv� 'good': hyv� > giva > kiva.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Fredrik :Ostman
> It is wonderful that they bother to teach this.
Yes. I wonder if they still do.
> hyvens [...] känga [...] and kola av
kola, kola av, kola vippen, kolavippa
--
Fredrik Östman
Fredrik :Ostman
> But you've still got the old Scandinavian word 'dreng'
Yes, but it doesn't mean "boy". It has three uses:
Farm hand, historically
Henchman, helper, ironically
to denote especially vulgar humour
--
Fredrik Östman
Per Rønne
> >-----< Per R�nne >
> > But you've still got the old Scandinavian word 'dreng'
>
> Yes, but it doesn't mean "boy".
I know.
> It has three uses:
>
> Farm hand, historically
English has the term "farm boy" - can be seen in OED.
> Henchman, helper, ironically to denote especially vulgar humour
--