"History" and "Story"
Henrik Ernoe
>On NPR the other morning I heard an interview
>with the author of the book "The Story of Art".
>One of his points was that very few languages
>have separate words for the English words
>"History" and "Story"
What nationality was he? His knowlegde of foreign
languages may be rather limited:
Both the latin and slavic languages have separate words
for "story" and "history". To me it seems that only the
unbastardised Germanic languages use the same words for
"story" and "history".
regards Henrik Erno.
Gunnar Blix
>On NPR the other morning I heard an interview
>with the author of the book "The Story of Art".
>One of his points was that very few languages
>have separate words for the English words
>"History" and "Story"
>I only know Danish (i.e. I understand most
>Swedish and Norwegian, but only SPEAK Danish)
>and this seems to be almost true for Danish,
>where "historie" covers both meanings, but
>we also have the word "fortælling" which
>some dictionaries will translate as "story" but
>it does not cover well.
>How are the other nordic languages in this respect?
You mean, what's the story? ;-)
In Norwegian, the words "historie, fortelling, eventyr" come to mind.
Who is this Art guy anyway, and why does he get his story told? ;-)
--
Gunnar Blix bl...@cs.uiuc.edu
University of Illinois http://www-ilg.ai.uiuc.edu/~blix/
Nothing so ridiculous but some philospher has said it. -- Cicero
Keld Sorensen
with the author of the book "The Story of Art".
One of his points was that very few languages
have separate words for the English words
"History" and "Story"
I only know Danish (i.e. I understand most
Swedish and Norwegian, but only SPEAK Danish)
and this seems to be almost true for Danish,
where "historie" covers both meanings, but
we also have the word "fortælling" which
some dictionaries will translate as "story" but
it does not cover well.
How are the other nordic languages in this respect?
Keld.
P.S. NPR can be heard in Europe now I believe -
check out their home page on the WWW
Pieter Kuiper
> Both the latin and slavic languages have separate words
> for "story" and "history". To me it seems that only the
> unbastardised Germanic languages use the same words for
> "story" and "history".
In Dutch, 'history' is 'geschiedenis' and 'story' is 'verhaal'.
--
Pieter
stuck in the WWWeb at http://usx218.fysik.uu.se/PieterWWW/
Henrik Ernoe
>In article <4eb0f6$h...@nef.ens.fr>, Henrik Ernoe <er...@wotan.ens.fr> wrote:
To me it seems that only the
>> unbastardised Germanic languages use the same words for
>> "story" and "history".
>
>In Dutch, 'history' is 'geschiedenis' and 'story' is 'verhaal'.
Touchč!. I learnt something new, thanks.
Henrik erno
Erland Gadde
> On NPR the other morning I heard an interview
> with the author of the book "The Story of Art".
> One of his points was that very few languages
> have separate words for the English words
> "History" and "Story"
> I only know Danish (i.e. I understand most
> Swedish and Norwegian, but only SPEAK Danish)
> and this seems to be almost true for Danish,
> where "historie" covers both meanings, but
> we also have the word "fortælling" which
> some dictionaries will translate as "story" but
> it does not cover well.
> How are the other nordic languages in this respect?
In Swedish, we use "historia" for both. We also use "berättelse" for "story".
Erland Gadde
agurski on BIX
>Erland Gadde
-----------------------
The situation is the same in Norwegian: "historie" and "fortelling".
-- Aron
Keld Sorensen
My wife was using the word
"gemme" the other day to mean "Store
for future use" - my son who was
born in DK and visits frequently
pointed out that "gemme" also means
"To hide so that you will not be able
to use it in the future".....
Interesting - but not very useful I fear?
Keld.
Ake Tegengren
wrote:
>
> On NPR the other morning I heard an interview
> with the author of the book "The Story of Art".
> One of his points was that very few languages
> have separate words for the English words
> "History" and "Story"
Well, having heard numerous Americans claiming their language being five
times (or so) as powerful as Swedish, I could not resist writing what
follows.
a' = a-ring
a" = a-two-points
o" = o-two-points
History: Historia, ha"vder, annaler, kro"nika, o"den, levnadssaga,
utveckling, bakgrund, tradition, proviniens.
Story: Historia, bera"ttelse, saga, sa"gen, fabel, anekdot, legend, myt,
pa'hitt, dikt.
I got the synonyms from a small thesaurus, and there are still more of
them. Of course the different words have more or less different meanings.
Once an American, a close friend of mine, claimed Swedish could not
possible have a word as expressive as "bold". I was able presenting him a
list of several tens of Swedish synonyms.
"An American is a person speaking only one language, and not even that very
well."
Keld Sorensen
and it indeed showed that BOTH are translated
to the Swedish equivalent of "History" -
He also went off the deep end a little, but
hey, it is only the net not life!!!
Keld. :)
Thor Eysteinsson
>Keld Sorensen <Ke...@uic.edu> wrote:
>>On NPR the other morning I heard an interview
>>with the author of the book "The Story of Art".
>>One of his points was that very few languages
>>have separate words for the English words
>>"History" and "Story"
>What nationality was he? His knowlegde of foreign
>languages may be rather limited:
Gombrich is an American, I believe, but of German or
Dutch descent. I don“t know how many languages he
speaks, but that book of his is a good read. Must admit
that I am a bit biased as I read it in gymnasium. It did
introduce me to art, and therefore I tend to see the author
as a fairly educated man ;)
>Both the latin and slavic languages have separate words
>for "story" and "history". To me it seems that only the
>unbastardised Germanic languages use the same words for
>"story" and "history".
In Icelandic we of course use the word "saga" for both
story and history, but when referring to any systematic
or academic study of history we use the term "sagnfraedi",
i.e. knowledge of history. There is a clear distinction,
but in colloquial language we use saga, perhAps for shortness.
But of course everyone should understand the implicit
difference. "Saga" does have a sort of historical connotation
in Icelandic; a "story" implies historic accuracy, whilst
that accuracy has diluted, so that a "saga" can have little or no
historic reference or content. So, perhaps Gombrich“s choice
was unfortunate and based on misunderstanding in a modern context.
Perhaps his dictionaries are getting old;)
Thor Eysteinsson.
Petur Rasmussen
> >One of his points was that very few languages
> >have separate words for the English words
> >"History" and "Story"
> >How are the other nordic languages in this respect?
In Icelandic we only have the word "saga" which means both history as a
disciplin and a story that somebody tells. Actually "the sagas" are called
"forsögur" in Icelandic literally "old stories". If you want to be precise
you can use the word "skáldsaga [sk'aldsaga]" which means a novel,
literally "an invented story".
================================================================
Petur Rasmussen pr...@ismennt.is
Menntaskolinn vid Sund Tel: +354-553 2858
IS-104 Reykjavik, Island. Fax: +354-568 3835
================================================================
Michael Ernst
: : Well, having heard numerous Americans claiming their language being five
: : times (or so) as powerful as Swedish, I could not resist writing what
: : follows.
: : Once an American, a close friend of mine, claimed Swedish could not
: : possible have a word as expressive as "bold". I was able presenting him a
: : list of several tens of Swedish synonyms.
I was just thinking that the only thing Swedish wouldn't be very strong
in is swere words. It's just my personal opinion, but "Gå till helvete"
just doesn't seem very emotional to me. I think that Dutch, German and
English have much more 'picturesque' phrases.
Michael J. Ernst
Michael Ernst
: Well, having heard numerous Americans claiming their language being five
: times (or so) as powerful as Swedish, I could not resist writing what
: follows.
What exactly do you mean by "five times as powerful?"
: History: Historia, ha"vder, annaler, kro"nika, o"den, levnadssaga,
: utveckling, bakgrund, tradition, proviniens.
: Story: Historia, bera"ttelse, saga, sa"gen, fabel, anekdot, legend, myt,
: pa'hitt, dikt.
I don't believe that bakgrund, tradition or dikt quite fit here.
: Once an American, a close friend of mine, claimed Swedish could not
: possible have a word as expressive as "bold". I was able presenting him a
: list of several tens of Swedish synonyms.
But are the connotations the same
: "An American is a person speaking only one language, and not even that very
: well."
Anteeksi? Många amerikanska människor kan tala mer än ett språk. Du har
glömt i alla fall att många amerikanare är invandrare. Ik spreek een
beetje Nederlands en ek spreek 'n beetjie Afrikaans. Ymmärrä vähän
Suomea. No American bashing, varsågod.
Michael J. Ernst
Lars-Henrik Eriksson
: Ake Tegengren (a...@paper.paperdep.kth.se) wrote:
: : Well, having heard numerous Americans claiming their language being five
: : times (or so) as powerful as Swedish, I could not resist writing what
: : follows.
: : Once an American, a close friend of mine, claimed Swedish could not
: : possible have a word as expressive as "bold". I was able presenting him a
: : list of several tens of Swedish synonyms.
I was just thinking that the only thing Swedish wouldn't be very strong
in is swere words. It's just my personal opinion, but "Gå till helvete"
just doesn't seem very emotional to me. I think that Dutch, German and
English have much more 'picturesque' phrases.
Like "fuck"?
I believe the difference is more in what you use for
swearwords. Scandianvians prefer the devil and his
minions. English-speakers prefer sex.
Personally, I'd rather enjoy sex than use it to swear at people. The
devil, on the other hand I can do without...
--
Lars-Henrik Eriksson
Logikkonsult NP AB, Swedenborgsgatan 2, S-118 48 STOCKHOLM, SWEDEN
Phone: +46 8 615 68 69, Fax: +46 8 641 19 06, Internet: l...@lk.se
Clancy
>I believe the difference is more in what you use for
>swearwords. Scandianvians prefer the devil and his
>minions. English-speakers prefer sex.
actually, those kinds of swear words used to be common in English,
back in the middle ages.......
James Perkins
|> >I believe the difference is more in what you use for
|> >swearwords. Scandianvians prefer the devil and his
|> >minions. English-speakers prefer sex.
|>
|> actually, those kinds of swear words used to be common in English,
|> back in the middle ages.......
Even in this century, a great controversy was caused when "Gone With the Wind"
came out in 1939 and ended with the classic line: "Frankly, my dear, I don't
give a damn." This was considered to be obscene at the time, and the censors
kicked up a stink about it.
It is still considered obscene in some American states to say words like "damn"
and "arse" on the radio. (I am not American, but I have an American penfriend
who told me about this).
I can't figure out why it is considered rude for people to say the names of
body parts in a particular way. For example if you say "vagina", it is not
rude, but if you say "cunt", or in Finnish "vittu", and in Swedish, "fitta",
it is thought to be quite disgusting. Despite the fact that all four words
refer to the same thing, only the first one is not obscene.
Clearly, these obscenities derive from the tradition that sex and things to
do with sex are "dirty" and not to be mentioned. Although "vagina" is not
considered a "rude" word, it is not supposed to be referred to in certain
contexts.
However, the Finns tell me that you couldn't get arrested for going up to a
policeman and swearing at him, although that often happens in English-speaking
countries.
Any comments?
James
Svend Videbak
<However, the Finns tell me that you couldn't get arrested for going up to a
<policeman and swearing at him, although that often happens in English-speaking
<countries.
<Any comments?
Bleddy hell, mate, I can attest that you don't need to do much in this country
to get arrested! But in this vein...
Years ago back in MapleLeafland, a friend of mine told me a story of a pair of
twins (guys) he knew. One of the twins was, apparently, an intelligent and
persevering young man. The other was dumber'n a bag of hammers. The dumb one
was the proud owner of a 750cc crotch-rocket Jap cafe racer, which probably
gave his parents cause for concern. He loved to jump atop his bike and hit
the suburban highways at the speed of sound. So one hot summer's day he gets
pulled over, caught dead to rights in a radar trap. Cops love to nail bikers
going too fast, incidentally. So the officer comes over to Dumb One, asks for
ID, driver's licence, etc., and Dumb One decides to display his talent for
self-preservation. He gets snarky with the cop and asks, high-handed: ``What is
your name, officer?", as if he intended to complain to a superior. The officer
replies: ``Constable Smith!". To which Dumb One replies: ``Constable?
Constable? That's a funny first name!". ``Right, that's it!" says the cop.
Down to the copshop goes Dumb One, on a charge of dangerous driving, because
he was doing something like 50k over the speed limit!
Let this be a lesson to you all...
Michael Ernst
: Any comments?
Actually I heard that in parts of Tennesse, the song,"I Kissed A Girl" by
Jill Sobulle required a warning message to precede it everytime it was
played, yet there was not one single swere/ obscene word.
Michael J. Ernst