Welcome to the Orgy Capital
HWM
"HELSINKI (Reuters) - The Finnish capital Helsinki, concerned to
preserve its image as a clean-cut ``information age'' society, has
banned drinking in public starting from December 1 and vowed to sweep
prostitutes off the streets.
Officials said Friday the city council had voted the measures earlier
this week.
The move follows a decision last month to create a ``pee police'' -- a
new squad to fight public urinating.
Thousands of young Finns descend on Helsinki city center Saturdays for
a huge street party that invariably turns into an orgy of heavy
drinking and love-making in the capital's spacious parks."
How would I put it now, "Yes, but..." ...oh well, let's have an orgy
instead.
Cheers,| The conformity of purpose will be achieved |
HWM | through the mutual satisfaction of requirements.|
hen...@iobox.fi & http://www.kuru.da.ru
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Chris Moore
human body and human sexuality. This contrast nicely with the repressive
views on these subject held by dogmatic Muslim extremists, Christian
fundamentalists, and even orthodox Jews.
However HMW, after reading your posts I must pause to reflect, is it
possible to get too much of a good thing?
Erik A. Mattila
You know, in the early sixties there was this international youth
conference in Helsinki. I think it was sponsored by the Soviets. Over
the years I met people who had attended, and I always asked them what
they thought of Helsinki. Invariably the answer was that it was overrun
with drunks. Well, I just though alchohol burners were a good way of
fighting off the could.
But in 1966 I was in Saigon, and the first Constituate Assembly was
convened to draft a constitution. All the members were North Vietnamese
(those Catholics Uncle Ho kicked out of the North in 1955-56) except for
Dr. Tran Van Van, who was a native of the South and a coalitionist. So
when the assembly got going, the first issue on the floor had nothing to
do with the new constitution -- some of the members wanted to make
shitting in the street a serious crime. Saigon, at this time, had the
infrastructure to support 300.000, but there were about 2 million souls
there, trying to escape the war. These assemblymen got all excited about
the henious crime of shitting in the street, and were about to outlaw it
severely, but Dr. Van got the floor and reminded the assemblymen that
Saigon, a city of 2 million, did not have one public restroom. Ths
subject was dropped, and a couiple of days later Dr. Tran Van Van was
murdered.
Cherios,
Erik Mattila
uncloud...@my-deja.com
"Chris Moore" <cm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
<snip>
>
> However HMW, after reading your posts I must pause to reflect, is it
> possible to get too much of a good thing?
>
lethal doses of alcohol to the extents that their metabolisms
are now alcohol based ( See Chariots of the Gods , von Däniken, p.123).
As for the sex, the only problem is in the dead of winter when
you have to cut down on the foreplay (oral sex in -30c is a killer)
on the other hand the Finnish idea of foreplay is "Honey, I'm home !"
so not much lost !
lustig
Mattila" <emat...@tomatoweb.com> wrote:
> Tears rolling down my face in laughter. Pee Police.
Well, a councilwoman actually suggested that we could
actually hire a small force, a bit like the parking
inspectors, who悲 earn their pay in no time...
> You know, in the early sixties there was this
> international youth conference in Helsinki. I think it
> was sponsored by the Soviets.
The legenday youth festival of 1962 - I think! That愀 when
we had the closest we扉e had to street riots, complete with
horse-mounted police and everything. My father used to brag
about his success in fighting against the Communist
youths...
The festival was indeed sponsored by one of the Soviet
sponsored organisations. The large majority of "patriotic
Finns" didn愒 warm to the idea, and the opposition to it
was both vocal and physical, and backed by "bourgeois"
organisations, who now admit they were given some support,
including greenbacks, by certain American representatives.
> Over the years I met people who had attended, and I
> always asked them what they thought of Helsinki.
> Invariably the answer was that it was overrun with
> drunks. Well, I just though alchohol burners were a good
> way of fighting off the cold.
But I thought the festival took place in the summer...
> These assemblymen got all excited about the henious crime
> of shitting in the street, and were about to outlaw it
> severely, but Dr. Van got the floor and reminded the
> assemblymen that Saigon, a city of 2 million, did not
> have one public restroom. Ths subject was dropped, and a
> couple of days later Dr. Tran Van Van was murdered.
If there was indeed a direct connection between the two
events, I must say Dr. Van died for a noble cause.
One of our most respected authors was asked shortly before
his death (of old age) what he thought of the plan for a
statue in his honour. He answered that he悲 much prefer it,
if the city would build a public WC in the park near his
favorite restaurant and name it after him. (He got the
statue.)
Lustig
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PockGockAmock
lustig wrote in message <089f2533...@usw-ex0102-013.remarq.com>...
>But I thought the festival took place in the summer...
It did, but you should be aware that on a good summer day, in Hki, if you
are lucky, the temperature is -25°
PGa
Erik A. Mattila
> In article <37E7D752...@tomatoweb.com>, "Erik A.
> Mattila" <emat...@tomatoweb.com> wrote:
>
> > Tears rolling down my face in laughter. Pee Police.
>
> Well, a councilwoman actually suggested that we could
> actually hire a small force, a bit like the parking
> inspectors, who悲 earn their pay in no time...
Well, Henry said he got hired a couple of weeks ago. I just assumed he found a
job in the computer field. I wonder if part of the standard equipment issue
will be a pee bottle.
> > You know, in the early sixties there was this
> > international youth conference in Helsinki. I think it
> > was sponsored by the Soviets.
>
> The legenday youth festival of 1962 - I think! That愀 when
> we had the closest we扉e had to street riots, complete with
> horse-mounted police and everything. My father used to brag
> about his success in fighting against the Communist
> youths...
Yup, that's the one. I didn't realise it was so upsetting to some Finns. I
thought the Finns are reasonable, liberal, compasionate, good neighbors and all
that. Well, there you go - the problems of stereotyping. But didn't all the
reactionaries move to Wisconsin?
> The festival was indeed sponsored by one of the Soviet
> sponsored organisations. The large majority of "patriotic
> Finns" didn愒 warm to the idea, and the opposition to it
> was both vocal and physical, and backed by "bourgeois"
> organisations, who now admit they were given some support,
> including greenbacks, by certain American representatives.
And the poor youth of the world, pawns in these Cold War gymnastics. I think
after that conference one of my friends went to Cuba, which was verbotten for
USAians at the time. During his tour, he got to play ping-pong with Fidel.
Fidel told him "If you win, I'll give you Cuba -- If I win, you don't have to
give me anything." Turns out Fidel was good - skunked my friend very quickly.
When he got back to the US the State Department confiscated his pass-port.
> > Over the years I met people who had attended, and I
> > always asked them what they thought of Helsinki.
> > Invariably the answer was that it was overrun with
> > drunks. Well, I just though alchohol burners were a good
> > way of fighting off the cold.
>
> But I thought the festival took place in the summer...
Well, yes. But if you keep the home fires burning, you're already warm when it
gets cold. It's like Mark Twain once wrote: "I took to drinking as a
toothache preventative. It works, I've never had a toothache."
> > These assemblymen got all excited about the henious crime
> > of shitting in the street, and were about to outlaw it
> > severely, but Dr. Van got the floor and reminded the
> > assemblymen that Saigon, a city of 2 million, did not
> > have one public restroom. Ths subject was dropped, and a
> > couple of days later Dr. Tran Van Van was murdered.
>
> If there was indeed a direct connection between the two
> events, I must say Dr. Van died for a noble cause.
In a way, there was a connection. Nguyen Kao Key was Godfather at the time
(his personal bodyguard rode Harley's which were outlawed for the rest of the
population). Key formed the constituate assembly because Herny Cabot Lodge had
placed his order a constitutional government, since it was so politically
embarassing that the US was supporting military governments. Since the idea
was to create a democratic govenment in Vietnam, Dr. Key, and the few other
South Vietnamese who were in the government, argued that the Viet Cong would
have to have representation - the 'coallition' plan which was really the only
possible resolution to the conflict in 1966. The Generals didn't like this
idea, because they needed the US military dole to stay in power. So the
general's proxys in the constituate assembly tried to block any real democratic
issue from being discussed - starting with the public defecation issue. So it
was clear that Dr. Van would force the issue, and he was subsequently
murdered. They tried to blame it on the VC, but nobody believed that. The two
English Language newspapers in Saigon at the time were the Saigon Post and the
Saigon Guardian. Both published articles that challenged the theory that the
VC had assinated Dr. Van, but each paper had to go through censorship by Key's
political analysts. The way they did this was to cut out the offensive
language from the printing plate, so for about a week after the assassination
both papers had huge blank spots in the columns. But the lack of text was a
statement in itself.
> One of our most respected authors was asked shortly before
> his death (of old age) what he thought of the plan for a
> statue in his honour. He answered that he悲 much prefer it,
> if the city would build a public WC in the park near his
> favorite restaurant and name it after him. (He got the
> statue.)
Going back to the Seinfield posts a few weeks back, I must say my favorite
episode was when Seinfield and Kramer were trying to take a leak in a high-rise
parking lot. Pretty funny, I thought.
Erik Mattila
HWM
> But didn't all the
> reactionaries move to Wisconsin?
At one time I always put down the stupid "Soviet Finland" things by
asking "Did you know there are more members in the American Communist
Party than in the Finnish Communist Party?" ... blessed be the ignorant
as the phrase: "Did you know there are more (Xth generation) Finnish
members in the American Communist Party than in The Finnish Communist
Party?" is also true... ( well, seemed to be at some point).
Heh, found one even in the 'lone red star state...'
Communist Party of Texas
P.O. Box 226147
Dallas, TX 75222
Pisspolitician...
Cheers,| The conformity of purpose will be achieved |
HWM | through the mutual satisfaction of requirements.|
hen...@iobox.fi & http://www.kuru.da.ru
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Hiski Haapoja
: At one time I always put down the stupid "Soviet Finland" things by
Speaking of which, a Swedish cabinet minister just made headlines in
Norway, which he called "the last Soviet republic" on TV without realizing
that his microphone was on...
Hiski
--
# Kokoomus on munattomien ihmisten puolue, jolla ei ole edes omaa
presidenttiehdokasta. #
HWM
Hiski Haapoja <ki...@simpukka.sci.fi> wrote:
> HWM <hen...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> : At one time I always put down the stupid "Soviet Finland" things by
>
> Speaking of which, a Swedish cabinet minister just made headlines in
> Norway, which he called "the last Soviet republic" on TV without
realizing that his microphone was on...
The following kowtows are almost as good as watching Black Adder! And
now what is this talk about the one formerly drunkard lady minister
forgetting to submit her credit card receipts...
Erik A. Mattila
my co-GI was a Wisconsin Finn, 2nd generation, named Ollala. When I told
him my grandmother was editor of Tyomiies [sp?] he shit all over himself.
What did I know, I thought all Finns were lefties. Be he got over it, and
we spent a lot of fine moments whoring around Denver together. Nice guy,
maybe too Lutheran for me, but he made up for it with an outstanding sense
of humor.
It looks like most of the Finnish communists over here went to Montreal,
New York, Astoria, and the SF Bay Area. Your 'Texas" find is an anomoly,
I would guess - the Finnish diaspora glitch. Also, the Finnish reds
tended to run with the Icelandic, Norwegian and Swedish reds over here.
What seemed to have shaped the political destiny was the organized labor
movement. The irony of the whole thing is that a very large number of the
most influencial recruiters to the American Communist Party were, in
reality, FBI undercover agents. This was true in San Francisco in the
thirties, for example. The one guy that everybody liked was an African
American who probably recruited the major percentage of new members. He
turned out to be an FBI agent. The last note is what shattered the
American Communist Party -- that was the expose of Stalin in the early
fifties (I think it was then). The party immediately split,
ideologically, and the great majority simply ended their involvement due
to disillusionment.
But about ten years ago I met an Armenian in Napa County (North of SF) and
he told me his story. He was a survivor of the Soviet invasion of
Armenia, and after that, he kicked around the near east for a while. When
he heard that the Finns and Soviets were engaged in hostilities, he made a
bee-line for Finland and signed up. His whole life up to then was filled
with the idea of revenge for what happened in Armenia. He even had a
campaign medal, which he showed to me.
Erik Mattila
HWM wrote:
> > But didn't all the
> > reactionaries move to Wisconsin?
>
> At one time I always put down the stupid "Soviet Finland" things by
> asking "Did you know there are more members in the American Communist
> Party than in the Finnish Communist Party?" ... blessed be the ignorant
> as the phrase: "Did you know there are more (Xth generation) Finnish
> members in the American Communist Party than in The Finnish Communist
> Party?" is also true... ( well, seemed to be at some point).
>
> Heh, found one even in the 'lone red star state...'
> Communist Party of Texas
> P.O. Box 226147
> Dallas, TX 75222
>
> Pisspolitician...
>
Heather Henderson
says...
> It looks like most of the Finnish communists over here went to Montreal,
> New York, Astoria, and the SF Bay Area. Your 'Texas" find is an anomoly,
> I would guess - the Finnish diaspora glitch.
I saw a reference in one of the local (Minnesota) papers to an incident
in the Stalin era - a large number of Finns from here, presumably
Communists, went to Russia to work on a railroad, or a highway, or
something similar, and ended up getting massacred. I don't recall any
other details. It might not even be true.
--
Heather Henderson
hea...@scc.net
http://scc.net/~heather
Erik A. Mattila
grandmother was among a group of Reds who went to Karalia after the
Bolshevik Revolution build a fish cannery (and there were no fish - a
bureaucratic oversight). She mentioned some raids from the Whites, and the
group nearly starved and had to boil tree bark for food. Later, in the
mid-twenties, she went to Finland and St. Petersburg to try to find my
grandfather, who had left Astoria and returned. My father, who was eight at
the time, went with her. They didn't find my grandfather, but they did meet
a Finnish baker in St. Petersburg who had nursed him to health after he was
caught up in a typhus epidemic.
My grandmother was such a hard-line bolshevik that she never would have
admitted that the SU had massacred Finns in the 30s, so I never heard about
that. In her eyes the SU could do no wrong, even after everyone else knew
the realities of Stalinism. Anyway, I'm curious about this event (or
events), if you care to comment on it further.
Thanks,
Erik Mattila
Hiski Haapoja wrote:
> Heather Henderson <hea...@scc.net> wrote:
> : I saw a reference in one of the local (Minnesota) papers to an incident
> : in the Stalin era - a large number of Finns from here, presumably
> : Communists, went to Russia to work on a railroad, or a highway, or
> : something similar, and ended up getting massacred. I don't recall any
>
> There are several books on the thousands of Red Finns who went to Russia
> after the Revolution, and were killed in the 1930s. Hannu Rautkallio's
> "Suuri viha" is one. The same cleansing happened to other nationalities
> too - Balts, Germans, Hungarians...
HWM
hea...@scc.net (Heather Henderson) wrote:
> I saw a reference in one of the local (Minnesota) papers to an
> incident in the Stalin era - a large number of Finns from here,
> presumably Communists, went to Russia to work on a railroad, or a
> highway, or something similar, and ended up getting massacred. I
> don't recall any other details. It might not even be true.
True allright, Erik is more knowledgeable of this history I think
though. There has been quite a few books being written over the Finns
who went to 'build communism' in Karelia. A part were from the US, don't
know inspired by Jack Reed or not, but anyhow. Stalin welcomed them but
soon the purges started and by the end of the 1930's there were not too
many survivors. Those who made it back from the USSR to Finland or the
US were very quiet on the wonders of the Soviet system. See, on both
sides of the border you'd be shot.
This reminds me of some cult movements that made their members sell all
their belongings and move to some godforsaken hole to 'build paradise'.
Not very many successes. Or the price of the success was very heavy.
HWM
"Erik A. Mattila" <emat...@tomatoweb.com> wrote:
> the realities of Stalinism. Anyway, I'm curious about this event (or
> events), if you care to comment on it further.
Hi Eric,
My newsserver has been down for a week now so I'm missing half the stuff
but here's something I hope you'll see.
I think you'll be investing the 12 dollars for this book:
http://www.northstarpress.com/karelia.html
On the web, some more and less objective sites:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/3818/MURDER.HTM
You can also check if you find any relatives or people your grandmother
told stayed in the USSR on the list:
http://www.onego.ru/win/pages/spiski/
... just start to flip through the names and you'll see a lot of
USA and Kanada there in between as in:
Mäki, Valter Valterovit?, s.1907, Minnesota, USA; suomalainen; USA:sta
1931; kirvesmies; Uhtua, Kalevalan piiri; ammuttu 15.05.1938.
Mäki, Valter Valterovit ? b.1907, Minnesota, USA; Finnish; from USA in
1931; carpenter; Uhtua, Kaleva district; shot 15.05.1938
Seven years - short 'paradise' indeed.
Björn V
> HWM <hen...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> : At one time I always put down the stupid "Soviet Finland" things by
>
> Speaking of which, a Swedish cabinet minister just made headlines in
> Norway, which he called "the last Soviet republic" on TV without realizing
> that his microphone was on...
>
> Hiski
I heard somebody here in Sweden comment this (admittedly deplorable)
incident by muttering "well, I guess it's only in Norway and North
Korea one can see the schoolchildren parade on the national day
carrying the national flag".
I can't imagine that school kids in Norway do this. Please somebody,
enlighten me!
Bjorn
Kari Yli-Kuha
That's done also in Finland. See e.g. school pictures in Keminmaa,
the realm of Paavo Väyrynen:
http://www.edu.keminmaa.fi/yla-aste/kuviakeminmaasta/kuvia/itsenaisyysjuhla/sld016.htm
/Kari
Erik A. Mattila
in 1917 - 20 didn't. I try to put myself in the frame of mind of a young
person then, and all things being equal, it's not hard to understand how
the Russian Revolution offered hope and engendered quite a bit of excitment
in many people, especially young people in Europe who were looking around
at pretty dismal economies and futures that looked a bit gloomy.
But now we have inherited the 'post-modern' attitude. Some define
'post-modernism' as the collapse of the old paradigm, which significantly
was a belief in a unifying ideology, such as communism, socialism,
capitalism etc. Generally we, as individuals, don't see 'choice' in that
way any longer, and if fact we are likely to be disenchanted with any
particular 'cure-all' for social problems. Theorists describe this as 'the
post-modern condition.'
So you seem to want to describe the millions who bought into communism as
some sort of twinkle-toed, naive, and silly idealists. I don't think this
is the case. But it's interesting to contemplate the demise of the SU.
How about this theory? Marx couldn't have possibly anticipated that
commodity fetishism could rise to the level it has in our brave new world.
He couldn't have realized that the 'will to shop' would be stronger than
the 'will to live,' and that soviet citicizens would sell their relatives
into slavery for a pair of Levis. (ha ha ha - just yoiking, my friend).
Erik Mattila
HWM wrote:
> In article <MPG.12572570e...@news.scc.net>,
> hea...@scc.net (Heather Henderson) wrote:
>
> > I saw a reference in one of the local (Minnesota) papers to an
> > incident in the Stalin era - a large number of Finns from here,
> > presumably Communists, went to Russia to work on a railroad, or a
> > highway, or something similar, and ended up getting massacred. I
> > don't recall any other details. It might not even be true.
>
> True allright, Erik is more knowledgeable of this history I think
> though. There has been quite a few books being written over the Finns
> who went to 'build communism' in Karelia. A part were from the US, don't
> know inspired by Jack Reed or not, but anyhow. Stalin welcomed them but
> soon the purges started and by the end of the 1930's there were not too
> many survivors. Those who made it back from the USSR to Finland or the
> US were very quiet on the wonders of the Soviet system. See, on both
> sides of the border you'd be shot.
>
> This reminds me of some cult movements that made their members sell all
> their belongings and move to some godforsaken hole to 'build paradise'.
> Not very many successes. Or the price of the success was very heavy.
>
Heather Henderson
> In article <MPG.12572570e...@news.scc.net>,
> hea...@scc.net (Heather Henderson) wrote:
>
> > I saw a reference in one of the local (Minnesota) papers to an
> > incident in the Stalin era - a large number of Finns from here,
> > presumably Communists, went to Russia to work on a railroad, or a
> > highway, or something similar, and ended up getting massacred. I
> > don't recall any other details. It might not even be true.
>
> True allright, Erik is more knowledgeable of this history I think
> though. There has been quite a few books being written over the Finns
> who went to 'build communism' in Karelia. A part were from the US, don't
> know inspired by Jack Reed or not, but anyhow. Stalin welcomed them but
> soon the purges started and by the end of the 1930's there were not too
> many survivors. Those who made it back from the USSR to Finland or the
> US were very quiet on the wonders of the Soviet system. See, on both
> sides of the border you'd be shot.
This is quite interesting - I'll have to find the books and do some more
reading. It struck me that it would make a good movie. But it would be
one of those hideously depressing movies that put you in a black mood for
weeks afterwards, e.g., "Das Boot".
> This reminds me of some cult movements that made their members sell all
> their belongings and move to some godforsaken hole to 'build paradise'.
> Not very many successes. Or the price of the success was very heavy.
When they start serving out grape Kool-Aid, it's time to leave.
Heather Henderson
says...
> Well, we have the power of hindsight, which those who made their decisions
> in 1917 - 20 didn't. I try to put myself in the frame of mind of a young
> person then, and all things being equal, it's not hard to understand how
> the Russian Revolution offered hope and engendered quite a bit of excitment
> in many people, especially young people in Europe who were looking around
> at pretty dismal economies and futures that looked a bit gloomy.
I tried to find info on the web about this emigration of American Finns
to Karelia but didn't come up with much. However, I did find a document
which may be of interest to you. It's a PhD thesis about the Farmer-
Labor movement in Minnesota, 1917-1948, a movement which leftwing Finns
seem to have influenced:
http://freenet.msp.mn.us/people/fholson/flashist.htm
Some fascinating stuff in it about American socialist ideology and labor
organizing, and there's a lot of background on the political history of
this state, which is far more radical than Garrison Keillor would have
everyone believe. You may get an insight into why we elected such an
unusual governor :-)
lustig
Mattila" <emat...@tomatoweb.com> wrote:
> Well, we have the power of hindsight, which those who
> made their decisions in 1917 - 20 didn't. I try to put
> myself in the frame of mind of a young person then, and
> all things being equal, it's not hard to understand how
> the Russian Revolution offered hope and engendered
> quite a bit of excitment in many people, especially young
> people in Europe who were looking around at pretty dismal
> economies and futures that looked a bit gloomy.
An ideology whose basic tenet is claimed to be the equality
of all people is bound to have its attraction. Communism
also carried the huge idea of progress unhindered by the
constraints of the old society.
The majority of the American Finns who emigrated into
Soviet Karelia did so after the onset of the Great
Depression. They were also very much wooed by the young
Communist state which was very keen to adopt all kinds of
modern methods and inventions made in USA. They would be
the pioneers and the new future. The Finns took with them
everything, chain saws, machine tools and field equipment -
and they were able to accomplish much in the short time
they had.
They were probably too succesful, they were opposed by
local party bosses whose communal farming was a failure
etc. Then on top of that, Stalin began his policy
against "unreliable" or "hostile" nationalist tendencies,
and Finns suffered especially in the following persecutions
and purges.
The list of people who were given the sentence of "ten
years in forced labour without a right of correspondence"
is harrowingly long.
Massimo Gais
>
> Another piece of news bound to stir wild stories of Funland!
>
> "HELSINKI (Reuters) - The Finnish capital Helsinki, concerned to
> preserve its image as a clean-cut ``information age'' society, has
> banned drinking in public starting from December 1 and vowed to sweep
> prostitutes off the streets.
>
or have I to expect policemen to test (and taste!) my drink to
check if it's a banned drink? :-)
Regards
--
Massimo Gais <mg...@na.astro.it>
----
"True programmers never die,
they just branch to an odd address..."
Arne Kolstad
Erik A. Mattila <emat...@tomatoweb.com> skrev i
news:37EFACAC...@tomatoweb.com
> Well, we have the power of hindsight, which those who made their decisions
> in 1917 - 20 didn't. I try to put myself in the frame of mind of a young
> person then, and all things being equal, it's not hard to understand how
> the Russian Revolution offered hope and engendered quite a bit of
excitment
> in many people, especially young people in Europe who were looking around
> at pretty dismal economies and futures that looked a bit gloomy.
Add a population growth that forced people into migration. This goes for the
lure of fascism as well, which was a strong movement in Europe. Both
promised Paradise under the dicatorship of the party.
> But now we have inherited the 'post-modern' attitude. Some define
> 'post-modernism' as the collapse of the old paradigm, which significantly
> was a belief in a unifying ideology, such as communism, socialism,
> capitalism etc. Generally we, as individuals, don't see 'choice' in that
> way any longer, and if fact we are likely to be disenchanted with any
> particular 'cure-all' for social problems. Theorists describe this as
'the
> post-modern condition.'
Just so that we do not mistake this condition for something just thrown upon
us by the fashion industry: We really do have the power of hindsight.
> So you seem to want to describe the millions who bought into communism as
> some sort of twinkle-toed, naive, and silly idealists. I don't think this
> is the case.
It most certainly is not. We now know that a lot of the leaders were brutal
psychpaths. In hindsight, we know as well that people knew about the
atrocities made by communist and fascist regimes, but were too afraid or had
too many interests in the working of these societies to complain.
One may understand the strong feelings among young people caught by these
totalitarian movements, for two reasons: First, of course, because they
promised a just society were everybody (belonging to the correct
nationality, race or class) could realise all their potential, liberated
from material need and with all the space in the World. The less sympathetic
view is that the brutality and the contempt for weakness broadcasted by the
movements, must have been experienced like just the empowerment that poor
youngsters needed.
The continuing support from sympathisers abroad, who knew about the
concentration camps and gulags, the murders and the tyranny in Nazi Germany,
the Soviet block, China, Cambodia, etc., is much harder to deal with. This
is probably a less romantic topic in Europe than it is in the US, since we
have had and still have these people placed in high positions in our
societies. If the cold war hadn't been finished, I believe we would have had
new persecutions here like those in the fifties. I would not have liked it,
but the feelings regarding this issue among people in my generation can be
quite strong.
> But it's interesting to contemplate the demise of the SU.
> How about this theory? Marx couldn't have possibly anticipated that
> commodity fetishism could rise to the level it has in our brave new world.
As little as a 19th century proclaimed inventor of the Perpetuum Mobile
would have anticipated newsgroups. Even if he used all the insights present
in his time, why should he? World Economy is in a problematic stage, as
always, and "Marxism" is irrelevant to understand it. So is "Ricardoism", by
the way.
> He couldn't have realized that the 'will to shop' would be stronger than
> the 'will to live,' and that soviet citicizens would sell their relatives
> into slavery for a pair of Levis. (ha ha ha - just yoiking, my friend).
If one relative would send another to the gulag for the sake of solidarity,
why not?
Keep on yoiking.
--
Arne
Hiski Haapoja
: Some fascinating stuff in it about American socialist ideology and labor
: this state, which is far more radical than Garrison Keillor would have
: everyone believe.
As long as the reactionaries remember Walter Mondale, they won't lose
sleep at the thought of radical Minnesotans. ;)
Hiski, who saw "Feeling Minnesota" on TV last week
Hiski Haapoja
: So, it will not be possible to drink even a innocent Jaffa,
: or have I to expect policemen to test (and taste!) my drink to
: check if it's a banned drink? :-)
No need for the smiley. Zero tolerance is being tested here in Tampere
too: if you look like a teenager and carry a bag at night, the bored
policemen patrolling the quiet streets can search your bag for booze.
Hiski
Erik A. Mattila
> Erik A. Mattila <emat...@tomatoweb.com> skrev i
>
> Add a population growth that forced people into migration. This goes for the
> lure of fascism as well, which was a strong movement in Europe. Both
> promised Paradise under the dicatorship of the party.
Yes, you are right, but I think there might be some other factors to consider
that might might make the idealism of youth quite different in the periods
before WWI and after.
> > But now we have inherited the 'post-modern' attitude. Some define
> > 'post-modernism' as the collapse of the old paradigm, which significantly
> > was a belief in a unifying ideology, such as communism, socialism,
> > capitalism etc. Generally we, as individuals, don't see 'choice' in that
> > way any longer, and if fact we are likely to be disenchanted with any
> > particular 'cure-all' for social problems. Theorists describe this as
> 'the post-modern condition.'
>
> Just so that we do not mistake this condition for something just thrown upon
> us by the fashion industry: We really do have the power of hindsight.
I just think that 'we' (an this has to be some kind of 'average' attitude) are
inclined toward cynicism when compared to our parents and grandparents who
selected from the smorgasboard of political ideologies and movements. In fact
we may be inclined not to select such a thing at all, instead meeting each
situation on its own merits (or lack of merits) and trying to find a solution
on a very local level, rather than trying to wrap it up in a grand unitary
ideology. This 'shift' in persective is the thing that caused social scientist
to coin the term post-modernism, but it existed before the term. What has
transpired since then is, as you say, the workings of fashion industry which
has popularized the term 'post modern' to a degree that it hardly means
anything, or is so shallow it is completely silly.
> > So you seem to want to describe the millions who bought into communism as
> > some sort of twinkle-toed, naive, and silly idealists. I don't think this
> > is the case.
>
> It most certainly is not. We now know that a lot of the leaders were brutal
> psychpaths. In hindsight, we know as well that people knew about the
> atrocities made by communist and fascist regimes, but were too afraid or had
> too many interests in the working of these societies to complain.
There's also an aspect of a moral philosophy that comes to play when human
organize around a political principle or master plan. It's the old schism
between the means and ends. Do the ends justify the means? The
quasi-ideologies generated by the cold-war, packaged in the concept of the
national security state, express the belief that the ends do justify the
means. The critique of that moral philosophy, which comes from a concept of
humanism, says no. Fear and special interest might explain 'silence' to some
degree, but there is also the influence of the moral philosophy that the
atrocities are 'regrettable but necessary' to insure political security and the
welfare of the system. But I suppose that the individual's ideological
'investment' into the system could be described as one of 'too many interests.'
> One may understand the strong feelings among young people caught by these
> totalitarian movements, for two reasons: First, of course, because they
> promised a just society were everybody (belonging to the correct
> nationality, race or class) could realise all their potential, liberated
> from material need and with all the space in the World. The less sympathetic
> view is that the brutality and the contempt for weakness broadcasted by the
> movements, must have been experienced like just the empowerment that poor
> youngsters needed.
While I was in the military the popular view of 'lifers' by my fellow
conscripts was that they were a class of people who had no desire to make any
decisions about their own lives, and instead loved the Army because it always
told you what to do. It's very Freudian, really. But there are many people
like that, who are searching for some paternal factor or figure that will make
the life decisions that they don't want to make themselves. This is probably
why we should study the Marquis de Sade seriously. Have you ever contemplated
the thrill of total surrender - to a God, a political demigouge, a Dominatrix
with a whip (this is written for the benefit of Henry - I know he likes this
sort of discussion - he he he)?
> The continuing support from sympathisers abroad, who knew about the
> concentration camps and gulags, the murders and the tyranny in Nazi Germany,
> the Soviet block, China, Cambodia, etc., is much harder to deal with. This
> is probably a less romantic topic in Europe than it is in the US, since we
> have had and still have these people placed in high positions in our
> societies. If the cold war hadn't been finished, I believe we would have had
> new persecutions here like those in the fifties. I would not have liked it,
> but the feelings regarding this issue among people in my generation can be
> quite strong.
I do think the attitudes in Europe are different than those in the US, but at
the same time we have our share of political celebrities with skeletons in
their closets. The US is a great one for being in a perpetual state of
denial. But personally I think we exist in danger of repression with or
without the cold war. I think a shift in politicals priorities is underway.
Right now the globe is being redefined and humanity is being divided into the
haves and have-nots on the basis of acess to information.
> > But it's interesting to contemplate the demise of the SU.
> > How about this theory? Marx couldn't have possibly anticipated that
> > commodity fetishism could rise to the level it has in our brave new world.
>
> As little as a 19th century proclaimed inventor of the Perpetuum Mobile
> would have anticipated newsgroups. Even if he used all the insights present
> in his time, why should he? World Economy is in a problematic stage, as
> always, and "Marxism" is irrelevant to understand it. So is "Ricardoism", by
> the way.
>
> > He couldn't have realized that the 'will to shop' would be stronger than
> > the 'will to live,' and that soviet citicizens would sell their relatives
> > into slavery for a pair of Levis. (ha ha ha - just yoiking, my friend).
>
> If one relative would send another to the gulag for the sake of solidarity,
> why not?
>
> Keep on yoiking.
Well, it is a joke in a way, but there's a serious side to it. The real
serious side is my credit card balances. It's ironic, since I've never given a
political idea any where near that much alliegance. And here I am writing to
newsgroups instead of doing my work.
Erik Mattila
Massimo Gais
>
> No need for the smiley. Zero tolerance is being tested here in Tampere
> too: if you look like a teenager and carry a bag at night, the bored
> policemen patrolling the quiet streets can search your bag for booze.
>
the rule.
By your answer I can only guess:
1) it's in force 24h24, and 7d7
2) it's valid for every drinking
3) maybe valid only against teenagers
Could you explain me better?
Tnx
Arne Kolstad
> I just think that 'we' (an this has to be some kind of 'average' attitude)
are
> inclined toward cynicism when compared to our parents and grandparents who
> selected from the smorgasboard of political ideologies and movements. In
fact
> we may be inclined not to select such a thing at all, instead meeting each
> situation on its own merits (or lack of merits) and trying to find a
solution
> on a very local level, rather than trying to wrap it up in a grand unitary
> ideology.
The problem of creating a comprehensive and self-evident theory about
History and Society, right and wrong, God and Devil, may be of a logical
nature, not unlike that of self-evident, assumption free mathematical
systems. Giving it up would then be a sign of sanity, not that of emptyness
of mind. Just a comment, and for the time being, I believe this to be true.
> This 'shift' in persective is the thing that caused social scientist
> to coin the term post-modernism, but it existed before the term.
I have to believe that sanity is not a modern phenomenon, and certainly not
post-modern. The most active intellectual critics of post-modernism are old
marxists feeling homeless among the ruins, and in full swing with endless
monologues about dialogue and discourse, and how to save the World through
honesty and earnesty. Another Perpetuum Mobile project, wonderfully
elaborated into absurdity by the Chinese who used to post here (Think! Don't
be a lazydog!).
> What has
> transpired since then is, as you say, the workings of fashion industry
which
> has popularized the term 'post modern' to a degree that it hardly means
> anything, or is so shallow it is completely silly.
The fashion industry has to engage in something. The belief that something
exists that is even more modern than modern, seems still to be tolerably
progressive even for the fashionable. We ought to wait in tense expectation
for what is behind the next horizon.
Yes, you are right. If one believe that ones class/race/nation has an
historical mission to make the World better, anything the Party does may be
justified on behalf of the masses, or at least on behalf of the future
masses. It is a cosmology that makes it possible to reconsile oneself with
the most brutal repression. To some extent the same explanation may be used
to understand people who neither experience the repression themselves nor
harvest any outcome from it (because, for example, they live in a civilised
country), but share the ideology. They share responsibility, though, and for
me it is hard to decide who are the worse, cynicists or believers.
This line of description is central to the concept of "The Authoritarian
Personality", dating from the days of the Frankfurter school of Marxist
sociology as an explanation of the success of nazism in Germany. Modern
attempts to verify this Freudian inspired theory have largely failed to
corroborate it to any extent. While this is not a reason to dismiss it
completely, I do not think anybody should claim it to be a good or important
theory about political behaviour.
<snip>
> Well, it is a joke in a way, but there's a serious side to it. The real
> serious side is my credit card balances. It's ironic, since I've never
given a
> political idea any where near that much alliegance. And here I am writing
to
> newsgroups instead of doing my work.
Eh.. right! Thanks anyway for your patience.
/Arne
Niklas Tötterman
wrote:
> Hiski Haapoja wrote:
> >
> > No need for the smiley. Zero tolerance is being tested here in Tampere
> > too: if you look like a teenager and carry a bag at night, the bored
> > policemen patrolling the quiet streets can search your bag for booze.
> >
> Okei, okei. I was just trying to understand the exact way of the
> the rule.
> By your answer I can only guess:
>
> 1) it's in force 24h24, and 7d7
Yes - although it might not be enforced on special occasions
such as 1st of May etc.
> 2) it's valid for every drinking
Only for drinking alcoholic beverages, of course. However, I think
that if you are around 15-16 years old, sitting in a park and drinking
something from an obscure plastic bottle the police might get
interested - even if it's only apple squash.
> 3) maybe valid only against teenagers
In essence no, in practice yes - I believe. Some years ago drinking
in public was prohibited by law. It wasn't really enforced on a grand
scale, but gave the police an easy way to confiscate the bottles from
propable minors without checking out their ID.
Not a bad thing, really, although I wasn't too happy about it when _I_
was a teenager ;) Some of my friends got caught, but that was more
often because of plain stupidity than because the police was so
active. One guy got taken in because he was mixing his vodka with
Coke - outside what turned out to be a police station. Wonder what
Darwin would've said to that...
--
"Who is this general failure, and
why is he reading my disk ?"
Niklas Tötterman | http://www.sit.fi/~nico
Remove "nosuchanimalasspam" from my IN%
HWM
And I got 3 days for sitting near a plastic bag with empty beer bottles
in Hietaniemi beach park - I was on a weekend leave from the Army and
could not try even to contest. Shit, my teenage deliquency happened when
I was 19... Fortunately I was in the army, so the 3 days did not add up
to much... Fuck, fine them all!
Best regards from moral turpitude...
Heather Henderson
> Some of my friends got caught, but that was more
> often because of plain stupidity than because the police was so
> active. One guy got taken in because he was mixing his vodka with
> Coke - outside what turned out to be a police station. Wonder what
> Darwin would've said to that...
I can see why mixing vodka with Coke would be illegal. What an awful
combination.
Heather Henderson
> Heather Henderson <hea...@scc.net> wrote:
> : Some fascinating stuff in it about American socialist ideology and labor
> : organizing, and there's a lot of background on the political history of
> : this state, which is far more radical than Garrison Keillor would have
> : everyone believe.
>
> As long as the reactionaries remember Walter Mondale, they won't lose
> sleep at the thought of radical Minnesotans. ;)
He's not exactly a bomb-throwing anarchist, is he? But don't
underestimate him - he can bore someone to death at >100 yards.
> Hiski, who saw "Feeling Minnesota" on TV last week
Haven't seen that one. It's supposed to be terrible. Is it?
The best Minnesota movie is "Fargo". The locals consider it a wildly
fantastical satire ("Yah, we dooon't talk like dat here, ya knooow"), but
we transplants from other states recognize it as an accurate real-life
documentary.
Erik A. Mattila
you for the reference to the PhD dissertation. I just looked at is casually,
being strapped for time, and it looks really fascinating.
Thanks,
Erik Mattila
Kari Yli-Kuha
> I can see why mixing vodka with Coke would be illegal. What an awful
> combination.
Well, Cuba Libre is a popular mixture of coke and white rum - there's not much difference.
Perhaps it should be renamed to "Russia Libre" to make it more attractive? :)
What I don't understand is the popularity of "kossuvissy" among some circles.
That's a mixture of Koskenkorva vodka and carbonated mineral water (Vichy)
/Kari
Heather Henderson
> Heather Henderson <hea...@scc.net> wrote in message news:MPG.125bfacf8...@news.scc.net...
> > I can see why mixing vodka with Coke would be illegal. What an awful
> > combination.
>
> Well, Cuba Libre is a popular mixture of coke and white rum - there's not much difference.
Not much difference between vodka and rum??? My mind is boggling. Remind
me never to drink any of your daiquiris :-)
> Perhaps it should be renamed to "Russia Libre" to make it more attractive? :)
>
> What I don't understand is the popularity of "kossuvissy" among some circles.
> That's a mixture of Koskenkorva vodka and carbonated mineral water (Vichy)
That doesn't sound too terrible. Has the designer-martini craze hit
Finland yet?
Erik A. Mattila
Years ago a friend took me to Tosca's in North Beach, San Francisco, and introduced the drink to me (it
was Henry Miller's favorite dirnk in Tropic of Cancer, BTW). All the old-timers at Tosca's were drinking
this. I watched the bartender mix Fernet Branca, Brandy and soda, and, if you like bitters, an excellent
drink--about three knocked me for a very pleasant loop. A couple of years later I was at my favorite
Italian delicatessen and I asked the proprietor if he had Fernet Branca, and he got a bottle out for me.
The label was in Italian, and I asked him to translate, and what he translated was dosage instructons for
treating anemia. Anyway, here's a Mexican recipe - puts 'wodka and coke' to shame. Looks like it would
work well as a replacement for tritetraclorethelyne as well as a iron poor blood medicine.
Piedra Putamadre
Ingredients:
1/2 oz Tequila (Herradura reposado)
1/2 oz Fernet Branca
1/2 oz Anisette (Cadenas)
Oh, yes, after a bottle of Herradura (Horseshoe) you'll never love Cuerva again.
Erik Mattila
Erik A. Mattila
> Erik A. Mattila <emat...@tomatoweb.com> skrev i
> > I just think that 'we' (an this has to be some kind of 'average' attitude)
> are
> > inclined toward cynicism when compared to our parents and grandparents who
> > selected from the smorgasboard of political ideologies and movements. In
> fact
> > we may be inclined not to select such a thing at all, instead meeting each
> > situation on its own merits (or lack of merits) and trying to find a
> solution
> > on a very local level, rather than trying to wrap it up in a grand unitary
> > ideology.
>
> The problem of creating a comprehensive and self-evident theory about
> History and Society, right and wrong, God and Devil, may be of a logical
> nature, not unlike that of self-evident, assumption free mathematical
> systems. Giving it up would then be a sign of sanity, not that of emptyness
> of mind. Just a comment, and for the time being, I believe this to be true.
There's a great deal of difference between theory and ideology in my mind,
Arne. What I was trying to describe was situationism, as in Guy Debord. Solve
each problem on its local level, rather than refering it to a grand idea like
communism, capitalism, fascism etc. So when Danny the Red attacks the Sorbonne
for championing a socially irrelevant curriculum, change the curriculum instead
of adopting Communism. This localism has been described by some as a
characteristic of postmodernism.
> > This 'shift' in persective is the thing that caused social scientist
> > to coin the term post-modernism, but it existed before the term.
>
> I have to believe that sanity is not a modern phenomenon, and certainly not
> post-modern. The most active intellectual critics of post-modernism are old
> marxists feeling homeless among the ruins, and in full swing with endless
> monologues about dialogue and discourse, and how to save the World through
> honesty and earnesty. Another Perpetuum Mobile project, wonderfully
> elaborated into absurdity by the Chinese who used to post here (Think! Don't
> be a lazydog!).
Ah, shucks, no. Academic marxism has little to do with political marxism.
Academic maarxism survives because Marx had a great impact on modern society -
for better or for worse. Can you imagine trying to study Soviet history in
2100 AD without having some grasp on Marx? There's no serious and informed
postmodernist who feels 'lost in the ruins.' (althought it's not a bad
thought, I'll grant you that.) Actually, if you want to make the survey,
you'll find that at least 50% of postmodern writings are critical of Marx. For
example, there's quite a bit of femminist theory which chides Karl Marx because
he didn't consider child-bearing as a productive force in society.
I am curious about the 'Perpetuum Mobile' project, however. I've never heard
of this, and you've mentioned it a couple of times.
> > What has
> > transpired since then is, as you say, the workings of fashion industry
> which
> > has popularized the term 'post modern' to a degree that it hardly means
> > anything, or is so shallow it is completely silly.
>
> The fashion industry has to engage in something. The belief that something
> exists that is even more modern than modern, seems still to be tolerably
> progressive even for the fashionable. We ought to wait in tense expectation
> for what is behind the next horizon.
Well, you know, when social scientist meet in colloquims, seminars, conventions
and etc. one topic of conversation is always if things have changed, generally
and significantly. If it's agreed that significant change has occured, then
each participant returns home and tries to coin a term to describe the change.
In the long run, the term 'postmodern' simply tries to say that things are
different after 1968 than before. As they say, a collapse of the old paradigm
took place. The old paradigm was, many say, the unitary ideology. Oh, yes,
there was another, particularly storng in post WW II times, that science and
technology would save the world. Anyway, my point is that all of these ideas
originate by pretty sound thinking, but then they get circulated as
intellectual fashions which are very superficial and shallow. As Roland
Barthes said, "a stock of phrases, catachistic declarations." If one is just
looking at the fashion, then the critique that it is pretty much bullshit is
right-on, as far as I am concerned. But in the end such is just a critique of
fashion itself, and not the subject itself that was fashionized by processes of
mass media, university curriculae and so on.
> > > > So you seem to want to describe the millions who bought into communisn
> as some sort of twinkle-toed, naive, and silly idealists. I don't think
> this is the case.
> >It most certainly is not. We now know that a lot of the leaders were brutal
> psychpaths. In hindsight, we know as well that people knew about the
> >atrocities made by communist and fascist regimes, but were too afraid or had
> too many interests in the working of these societies to complain.
Well, that wasn't exactly my point. But I agree with what you are saying.
What brought it all home to me was an experience I had in Viet Nam. I went
with a co-worker, a Vietnamese translator in the office I worked with, to vist
a friend of his family who lived in the country outside of Saigon. The friend
had a little farm, and he was showing it to my friend and myself, and we came
to an area of the farm that he had sold to the Catholics, for the construction
of a Nunnery. When we got there the Vietnamese Nuns were playing volley ball,
but when they saw us they all ran off into the buildings. Pretty soon Mother
Superior came out to deal with us (three men). She was a French Woman who had
her mission in Ba Moi Thot for several years,but by 1965 the combat got so bad
that she had to move her convent closer to Saigon. She came over to talk to
us, and said "There's really not much to see here. But I will show you our
chapel." We really had no intention of intruding, as we were just touring the
farm, but to be polite we went to the chapel and told her that it was very
nice, and thanked her for her trouble. But before we parted she turned to me,
and gazed deeply into my eyes, and said "If they really understood what they
were doing, they wouldn't do it." I was quite taken aback, as I couldn't
figure out why she said that to me - out of the clear blue sky. But her words
stuck with me, and eventually became very meaningful to me. This is why I
brought up the subject of the ends justifying the means. This is a very
functional moral philosophy that individuals operate under, and it is totally
wrong, in my opinion. So you see, I'm saying this is a ideological attitude
that is very powerful -- powerful enough to make people completely blind to the
excessive brutality of all the Hitlers, Stalins, Idi Amins, Efrian Rios Monts
of the world.
> > There's also an aspect of a moral philosophy that comes to play when human
> > organize around a political principle or master plan. It's the old schism
> > between the means and ends. Do the ends justify the means? The
> > quasi-ideologies generated by the cold-war, packaged in the concept of the
> > national security state, express the belief that the ends do justify the
> > means. The critique of that moral philosophy, which comes from a concept
> of
> > humanism, says no. Fear and special interest might explain 'silence' to
> some
> > degree, but there is also the influence of the moral philosophy that the
> > atrocities are 'regrettable but necessary' to insure political security
> and the
> > welfare of the system. But I suppose that the individual's ideological
> > 'investment' into the system could be described as one of 'too many
> interests.'
>
> Yes, you are right. If one believe that ones class/race/nation has an
> historical mission to make the World better, anything the Party does may be
> justified on behalf of the masses, or at least on behalf of the future
> masses. It is a cosmology that makes it possible to reconsile oneself with
> the most brutal repression. To some extent the same explanation may be used
> to understand people who neither experience the repression themselves nor
> harvest any outcome from it (because, for example, they live in a civilised
> country), but share the ideology. They share responsibility, though, and for
> me it is hard to decide who are the worse, cynicists or believers.
I don't understand your point here. It seems to me the cynic would not accept
the validity of the ideology that would be morally trransgressional, while the
'believer' would condone brutality because she/he felt it was 'regrettable, but
necessary' to advance the plan. I may be misundertanding your point.
> > > One may understand the strong feelings among young people caught by
> these
> > > totalitarian movements, for two reasons: First, of course, because they
> > > promised a just society were everybody (belonging to the correct
> > > nationality, race or class) could realise all their potential, liberated
> > > from material need and with all the space in the World. The less
> sympathetic
> > > view is that the brutality and the contempt for weakness broadcasted by
> the
> > > movements, must have been experienced like just the empowerment that
> poor
> > > youngsters needed.
On a lesser scale, we accept the law and think of it as a civilizing force,
even though we are aware that the law is often misapplied and innocent people
are victimized by it. We might advocate legal reform, but we are hesitant to
throw the law away, for fear of anarchy. Is it so hard to understand that many
people could be caught up in history with these attitudes, without a 'big
picture' of what is happening, and only later is the 'truth' of the situation
revealed which turns out to be quite horrible.
It has to be older that the Frankfurt school. Roman Legionairs probably
signed-up for the same reason modern soldiers do. A lot of people love the
regimented life. I think you're wrong about Freud. His popularity died some
time ago under the weight of Jungian psychomythology, but he's been
resurrected. Freud is full of errors, of course, but he's again a major player
in social theory. But think about it -- how do you explain the seduction of
the new nazism that exists everywhere today. You seriously don't think
paternalism and authoritarianism is a significant factor? What is your
alternative explanation.
> > Well, it is a joke in a way, but there's a serious side to it. The real
> > serious side is my credit card balances. It's ironic, since I've never
> given a
> > political idea any where near that much alliegance. And here I am writing
> to
> > newsgroups instead of doing my work.
>
> Eh.. right! Thanks anyway for your patience.
>
> /Arne
It's an enjoyable discussion. I appreciate your views.
Erik Mattila
Ari Joro
> (thanks, Massimo), I would like to cite 'fernet branca.'
> Ingredients:
> 1/2 oz Tequila (Herradura reposado)
> 1/2 oz Fernet Branca
> 1/2 oz Anisette (Cadenas)
> > > That's a mixture of Koskenkorva vodka and carbonated mineral water (Vichy)
> > Finland yet?
Consequences are nicer if you let females drink Fernet Branca
and drink kossuvissy yourself, especially when having stomach catarrh.
Koskenkorva labels, first tells "made of potatoes"
and last "grain vodka of Finland"
http://www.kossu.org/viina/etiketit.shtml
seems that all barns haven't yet been burned by frustrated crazies
http://www.city2.lapua.fi/ilmakuvat/loyhinki.jpg
Plörömokka:
put coin in white mug,
pour coffee until you don't see coin
pour kossu until you see coin
don't swallow coin (glue it in mug ?)
http://personal.eunet.fi/pp/tjm/tnr/juomat/Ploromokka.htm
and have viiltomakkara (cut-sausage) when getting hungry:
cut sausage http://www.huittisten.fi/img/ylapalkki_balanssi.jpg
put blue cheese in cuts http://www.valio.fi/pics/tuotteet_isotkuvat_aura.jpg
warm eat with kossu or beer
http://personal.eunet.fi/pp/tjm/tnr/paaruoat/Viiltomakkara.htm
--
Ari J.
on Thursday pea soup
no designer-martinis
Hiski Haapoja
:> Hiski, who saw "Feeling Minnesota" on TV last week
: Haven't seen that one. It's supposed to be terrible. Is it?
Not really. It could have been a Finnish film: drunken young men at the
edge of the society doing stupid impulsive things amidst melancholy
scenery. It wasn't believable for a minute, the jokes misfired and
the ending was so predictable - as usual with Hollywood - but it was
interesting all the way. Maybe the presence of the divine Cameron Diaz
made me willing to forgive the flaws. ;)
Hiski
--
# Nyt kokonaisia lauseita: <http://www.saunalahti.fi/~kisu/>. #
Trygve S. Håland
> Plörömokka:
> put coin in white mug,
> pour coffee until you don't see coin
> pour kossu until you see coin
> don't swallow coin (glue it in mug ?)
Better yet, keep pouring until the coin dissolves.
Trygve S. Håland
lustig
hea...@scc.net (Heather Henderson) wrote:
> I tried to find info on the web about this emigration
> of American Finns to Karelia but didn't come up with
> much.
One of the many things I´m not any good is trying info on
the web, but there´s a book: Mayme Sevander: Red Exodus,
Finnish-American Emigration to Russia; Saline, Minnesota
1993.
It´s not available here, but I have a mind to leaf through
three articles in historical journals about these things.
One of them is about Finns from Astoria, Oregon who left in
1922 to start a fishery commune.
The emigration to Soviet Russia took place in two steps:
first in 1921-22 by a few hundred ardent socialists who set
up various enterprises, which generally folded and the
emigres returned to America or to Finland.
The second was the large one and most of the 5.000-6.000
Finns left in 1931-32 to create a new socialist society.
This was the result of very active efforts by the Soviets,
but there was also a genuine "Karelian fever". Many peole
in this group were liquidated in Stalin´s purges.
Arne Kolstad
> Arne Kolstad wrote:
>
<snip>
> There's a great deal of difference between theory and ideology in my mind,
> Arne.
In mine as well, as an analytical starting point. Later on, it becomes
harder ... And in an empirical description of what is going on in Academia,
the distinction is not of much help.
> What I was trying to describe was situationism, as in Guy Debord. Solve
> each problem on its local level, rather than refering it to a grand idea
like
> communism, capitalism, fascism etc. So when Danny the Red attacks the
Sorbonne
> for championing a socially irrelevant curriculum, change the curriculum
instead
> of adopting Communism. This localism has been described by some as a
> characteristic of postmodernism.
I know the story and recognise the dilemma. My comment, in accordance with
what I tried to convey earlier, is that this is the obvious thing to do for
the majority of civilized individuals who have been proponents for a liberal
society. I suggest that the concept of post-modernism is necessary for those
who are fighting their way out of the self-delusion of marxism. For
individuals who have kept or regained their sanity in normal ways, the whole
process is quite confusing.
<snip>
>
> Ah, shucks, no. Academic marxism has little to do with political marxism.
I wonder what that is supposed to mean. I think I disagree completely with
that statement, but leave it to you to elaborate, since as I read it, it is
incompatible even with academic marxist theory. Not to mention empirical
observation, which is a different topic.
> Academic maarxism survives because Marx had a great impact on modern
society -
> for better or for worse. Can you imagine trying to study Soviet history
in
> 2100 AD without having some grasp on Marx?
It will be hard to study Soviet, for example, without some emic knowledge
about the concepts, values and theoretical structures in Marxism, since it
dominated thought and ideology in this society. Nobody would question that.
However, that is very different from saying that you need a marxist
understanding of the processes in that society. I would disagree with that.
> There's no serious and informed
> postmodernist who feels 'lost in the ruins.'
You really should get out more ;)
>(althought it's not a bad
> thought, I'll grant you that.)
> Actually, if you want to make the survey,
> you'll find that at least 50% of postmodern writings are critical of Marx.
For
> example, there's quite a bit of femminist theory which chides Karl Marx
because
> he didn't consider child-bearing as a productive force in society.
Exactly. As I said, the whole concept is relevant only in a clash between
marxism and former marxists, fighting to get out. Which is good, but they
are rediscovering sanity, which has been the normal condition among the
majority of people.
> I am curious about the 'Perpetuum Mobile' project, however. I've never
heard
> of this, and you've mentioned it a couple of times.
It was just meant as a parallel. Intelligent and well informed people have
been working on a Perpetuum Mobile for centuries. One may apply a lot of
wisdom and ingenuity in a persuit for the PM, one may discover some useful
things on the way, and one may even create a following willing to fund it.
However, it is still self-deception and there would have been easier and
more fruitful ways to achieve whatever good came out of it, without the cost
in material destruction, misery and waste of life.
> > > What has
> > > transpired since then is, as you say, the workings of fashion industry
> > which
> > > has popularized the term 'post modern' to a degree that it hardly
means
> > > anything, or is so shallow it is completely silly.
> >
> > The fashion industry has to engage in something. The belief that
something
> > exists that is even more modern than modern, seems still to be tolerably
> > progressive even for the fashionable. We ought to wait in tense
expectation
> > for what is behind the next horizon.
>
> Well, you know, when social scientist meet in colloquims, seminars,
conventions
> and etc. one topic of conversation is always if things have changed,
generally
> and significantly. If it's agreed that significant change has occured,
then
> each participant returns home and tries to coin a term to describe the
change.
> In the long run, the term 'postmodern' simply tries to say that things are
> different after 1968 than before. As they say, a collapse of the old
paradigm
> took place. The old paradigm was, many say, the unitary ideology.
"Paradigm" is another concept used in a sloppy way by many social
scientists, kind of loosely as a "belief". The unitary ideology of marxism
was for a microscopic minority in Academia. If "many say" that this was a
paradigm, they are either lying, or they are too young to possibly have any
knowledge about it.
> Oh, yes,
> there was another, particularly storng in post WW II times, that science
and
> technology would save the world.
That was another belief solidly embraced by all marxists. And by Marx
himself.
> Anyway, my point is that all of these ideas
> originate by pretty sound thinking, but then they get circulated as
> intellectual fashions which are very superficial and shallow. As Roland
> Barthes said, "a stock of phrases, catachistic declarations." If one is
just
> looking at the fashion, then the critique that it is pretty much bullshit
is
> right-on, as far as I am concerned. But in the end such is just a
critique of
> fashion itself, and not the subject itself that was fashionized by
processes of
> mass media, university curriculae and so on.
Self deception was strong at Sorbonne. One may suspect that it still is. OK,
it may be important to discuss the buts and ifs of the shortcomings of
Marxism since in some environments they were dominant. It does, however,
feel strange. Approximately like going through all the turns with a
would-be, but doubtful, constructor of a Perpetuum Mobile to show exactly
were it went wrong. Of course, the doubts are results of sound thinking, so
one should not be negative about them. There is, however, no good reason to
get seriously entangled in the healing process if you do not need to go
through it yourself.
The study of the process of self-deception is a different task, and one well
worth undertaking. Socialism, communism and fascism are political movements
that have been influencial, and they are important to study. We need the
experiences of the participants. That does not, however, mean an obligation
to seriously discuss the most crazy parts of totalitarian social theories.
<snip>
> Well, that wasn't exactly my point. But I agree with what you are saying.
I understand that. I just wanted to pull you out of your somewhat protected
context a bit. The debate over here has been a bit mor heated, I believe,
than in California.
<snip, story>
> So you see, I'm saying this is a ideological attitude
> that is very powerful -- powerful enough to make people completely blind
to the
> excessive brutality of all the Hitlers, Stalins, Idi Amins, Efrian Rios
Monts
> of the world.
That is true, on one level. I have two objections: First of all, the persons
in power have a life outside the governing boards and probably have similar
insights as the woman in your example. They know that napalm hurts, and that
they would not want themselves or their loved ones killed. While we may find
the roots of brutality in the lack of empathy, you will never convince me
that the lack of knowledge is important. That, of course, goes for us all,
not only for people with totalitarian convictions. Secondly, what the woman
expressed, was compassionate forgiveness more than an intellectual
statement.
> > Yes, you are right. If one believe that ones class/race/nation has an
> > historical mission to make the World better, anything the Party does may
be
> > justified on behalf of the masses, or at least on behalf of the future
> > masses. It is a cosmology that makes it possible to reconsile oneself
with
> > the most brutal repression. To some extent the same explanation may be
used
> > to understand people who neither experience the repression themselves
nor
> > harvest any outcome from it (because, for example, they live in a
civilised
> > country), but share the ideology. They share responsibility, though, and
for
> > me it is hard to decide who are the worse, cynicists or believers.
>
> I don't understand your point here. It seems to me the cynic would not
accept
> the validity of the ideology that would be morally trransgressional, while
the
> 'believer' would condone brutality because she/he felt it was
'regrettable, but
> necessary' to advance the plan. I may be misundertanding your point.
My point is that both the cynic and the believer are to blame, and likewise
responsible for the outcome of their action. Both attitudes are results of
self deception, so this is not more of an excuse for the one than for the
other.
<snip>
> On a lesser scale, we accept the law and think of it as a civilizing
force,
> even though we are aware that the law is often misapplied and innocent
people
> are victimized by it. We might advocate legal reform, but we are hesitant
to
> throw the law away, for fear of anarchy. Is it so hard to understand that
many
> people could be caught up in history with these attitudes, without a 'big
> picture' of what is happening, and only later is the 'truth' of the
situation
> revealed which turns out to be quite horrible.
There are no absolutes, of course. People are victimized even by the
institution of private property. Only some political sophistication can make
a rational debate about such things. Marxism most certainly does not
represent such sophistication.
<snip>
> It has to be older that the Frankfurt school.
Yes. There is a seminal work by Erik Fromm called "The Authoritarian
Personality". You really should read some of Fromm, Adorno and Habermas if
you want to understand the recent debate. Modern empirical research has not
been able to corroborate Fromm's theory (or loose idea, rather).
> Roman Legionairs probably
> signed-up for the same reason modern soldiers do. A lot of people love
the
> regimented life. I think you're wrong about Freud. His popularity died
some
> time ago under the weight of Jungian psychomythology, but he's been
> resurrected.
More importantly, both Freud and Jung have been dead in Europe under the
weight of empirical rationalism. Freud may be resurrected, I have no idea.
> Freud is full of errors, of course, but he's again a major player
> in social theory. But think about it -- how do you explain the seduction
of
> the new nazism that exists everywhere today. You seriously don't think
> paternalism and authoritarianism is a significant factor? What is your
> alternative explanation.
It is more important to me to beat some research discipline into you people.
If your data, whichever they are, never corroborate your theories, however
plausible they seem to you based on your life experience, you should take a
new look at your experience. And your theory. And your data. It is not a
good thing to repeat the theory as a mantra, especially not a Freudian
theory.
There are models in cognitive psychology that may be elaborated as an
alternative, but I would be an amateur there and leave it to others.
> It's an enjoyable discussion. I appreciate your views.
Likewise. We are both living in the middle of it.
/Arne
Niklas Tötterman
wrote:
> What I don't understand is the popularity of "kossuvissy" among some circles.
> That's a mixture of Koskenkorva vodka and carbonated mineral water (Vichy)
The bangs/buck ratio is the obvious factor...which tells quite a lot
of the circles that enjoy them ;)
Erik A. Mattila
> In article <MPG.125977b5...@news.scc.net>,
> hea...@scc.net (Heather Henderson) wrote:
>
> > I tried to find info on the web about this emigration
> > of American Finns to Karelia but didn't come up with
> > much.
>
> One of the many things I´m not any good is trying info on
> the web, but there´s a book: Mayme Sevander: Red Exodus,
> Finnish-American Emigration to Russia; Saline, Minnesota
> 1993.
>
> It´s not available here, but I have a mind to leaf through
> three articles in historical journals about these things.
> One of them is about Finns from Astoria, Oregon who left in
> 1922 to start a fishery commune.
That would be the expedition my grandmother was involved with. She passed away
around 1982, but a few years earlier she was visited in Berkeley by a scholar
from Finland and interviewed about the Karelian adventure. He informed her
that she was the sole surviving member ot the group when he visited. I
wouldn't be surprised that he is the author of the article you've mentioned.
She would have been called either Emma Kansala (maiden name) or Emma Mattila
then. But she later remaried, and was Emma Tuominen at the time of the
interview. I sure wish this article was in English -- I'd love to read it.
One thing she told me about the project that I always remember was that, after
building a cannery, they discovered there were no fish worth harvesting. It's
little wonder the SU collapsed if this was the rule instead of the exception.
Erik Mattila
rt
Björn V <b...@NOSPAMcmb.ki.se> wrote in message
news:270919991122019118%b...@NOSPAMcmb.ki.se...
> In article <7si87b$4ok$6...@tron.sci.fi>, Hiski Haapoja
> <ki...@simpukka.sci.fi> wrote:
>
> > HWM <hen...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > : At one time I always put down the stupid "Soviet
Finland" things by
> >
> > Speaking of which, a Swedish cabinet minister just made
headlines in
> > Norway, which he called "the last Soviet republic" on TV
without realizing
> > that his microphone was on...
> >
> > Hiski
>
> I heard somebody here in Sweden comment this (admittedly
deplorable)
> incident by muttering "well, I guess it's only in Norway
and North
> Korea one can see the schoolchildren parade on the
national day
> carrying the national flag".
>
> I can't imagine that school kids in Norway do this. Please
somebody,
> enlighten me!
>
> Bjorn
Do you know the difference between a Norwegian shrimp and
any other kind of shrimp?
rt
Stein Rypern
>
> Do you know the difference between a Norwegian shrimp
> and any other kind of shrimp?
Yes - in Swedish jokes the Norwegian shrimp supposedly
says "I am a lobster, I am a lobster" or some such thing.
Old joke. Seen it many times before. Try for something
new instead.
Smile
Stein
John Magne Trane
|> In article <7si87b$4ok$6...@tron.sci.fi>, Hiski Haapoja
|> <ki...@simpukka.sci.fi> wrote:
|>
|> > HWM <hen...@my-deja.com> wrote:
|> > : At one time I always put down the stupid "Soviet Finland" things by
|> >
|> > Speaking of which, a Swedish cabinet minister just made headlines in
|> > Norway, which he called "the last Soviet republic" on TV without realizing
|> > that his microphone was on...
|> >
|> > Hiski
|>
|> I heard somebody here in Sweden comment this (admittedly deplorable)
|> incident by muttering "well, I guess it's only in Norway and North
|> Korea one can see the schoolchildren parade on the national day
|> carrying the national flag".
|>
|> I can't imagine that school kids in Norway do this. Please somebody,
|> enlighten me!
|>
|> Bjorn
Other people are nationalist, one's own are only patriotic :)
Liking yourself isn't necessarily a bad thing you know... Isn't there
anything about 17de mai in the FAQ?
JMT
--
The essential problem is the same -- when to gybe. Gybe too early
and you have to gybe back; gybe too late and you end up reaching
into Bass Strait, meaning you sailed extra distance on starboard.
- Mark Chisnell
lustig
<emat...@tomatoweb.com> wrote:
> That would be the expedition my grandmother was involved with.
> She passed away around 1982, but a few years earlier she was visited
> in Berkeley by a scholar from Finland and interviewed about the
> Karelian adventure.
> He informed her that she was the sole surviving member ot the group
> when he visited. I wouldn't be surprised that he is the author of
> the article you've mentioned. She would have been called either Emma
> Kansala (maiden name) or Emma Mattila then. But she later remaried,
> and was Emma Tuominen at the time of the interview. I sure wish this
> article was in English -- I'd love to read it.
You´re right - the main informant is Emma Mattila-Tuominen! She was
interviewed in August 1972 by the author, who is William R. Copeland.
> One thing she told me about the project that I always remember was
> that, after building a cannery, they discovered there were no fish
> worth harvesting. It's little wonder the SU collapsed if this was
> the rule instead of the exception.
They never build a cannery; they did manage (after wrangling with the
bureaucracy, quarrelling with the local boss who didn´t let them use
the field saw, and finally securing first the timber, then the nails,
then the glass plates etc) to erect the building that would have housed
the machinery of the cannery - but it was diverted to some place on the
Black Sea.
The motorized fishing boats that they had intended to use never reached
their destination, either, so they had to use the existing vessels. The
original intention had been to fish salmon which were said to be
plentiful in the waters. Alas, they weren´t - and neither their
equipment nor their cannery plans were suited to herring which was.
They did catch quite a lot of it - but the only way to package it was
in wooden barrels, which they couldn´t get, or make themselves, because
the field saw boss didn´t co-operate, and if they had succeeded. the
fish would probably have gone bad before they would´ve been able to
transport them.
The 90 members of the "Karelian Fishing Co-operative" persevered in
that God-forsaken village of 200 inhabitants for a surprisingly long
time before calling it a day, and returning home, or, as your
grandmother, via Petrograd to Finland.
Incidentally she is quoted as putting the blame for the failure on the
remnants of the old Czarist bureacracy. She was of the opinion that
those people didn´t want them to succeed - and she had strong views on
what should have been done with them once the new state had trained its
own civil service workers.
Heather Henderson
> Erik A. Mattila wrote:
> > (thanks, Massimo), I would like to cite 'fernet branca.'
> > I watched the bartender mix Fernet Branca, Brandy and soda, and, if you like bitters,
> > Piedra Putamadre
Not a nice word!
> Plörömokka:
> put coin in white mug,
> pour coffee until you don't see coin
> pour kossu until you see coin
> don't swallow coin (glue it in mug ?)
> http://personal.eunet.fi/pp/tjm/tnr/juomat/Ploromokka.htm
Starbucks should serve this. "I'll have a Double Finnish Espresso,
please."
> and have viiltomakkara (cut-sausage) when getting hungry:
> cut sausage http://www.huittisten.fi/img/ylapalkki_balanssi.jpg
> put blue cheese in cuts http://www.valio.fi/pics/tuotteet_isotkuvat_aura.jpg
> warm eat with kossu or beer
> http://personal.eunet.fi/pp/tjm/tnr/paaruoat/Viiltomakkara.htm
THAT sounds good.
> on Thursday pea soup
> no designer-martinis
Moscow Martini (actually, it's more of a boilermaker): a water-glass full
of vodka, chased down with a few other forms of booze. The first time I
had this, we were already drinking red wine and champagne. A horrid
combination, but I had to uphold the honor of my country. The food
helped - we didn't have sausage but there was some wonderful pickled
garlic from Siberia. It was an interesting evening.
Martha Hughes
>
> Since part of this post originated in Italy (thanks, Massimo), I would like to cite 'fernet branca.'
> Years ago a friend took me to Tosca's in North Beach, San Francisco, and introduced the drink to me (it
> was Henry Miller's favorite dirnk in Tropic of Cancer, BTW). All the old-timers at Tosca's were drinking
> this. I watched the bartender mix Fernet Branca, Brandy and soda, and, if you like bitters, an excellent
> drink--about three knocked me for a very pleasant loop. A couple of years later I was at my favorite
> Italian delicatessen and I asked the proprietor if he had Fernet Branca, and he got a bottle out for me.
> The label was in Italian, and I asked him to translate, and what he translated was dosage instructons for
> treating anemia. Anyway, here's a Mexican recipe - puts 'wodka and coke' to shame. Looks like it would
> work well as a replacement for tritetraclorethelyne as well as a iron poor blood medicine.
>
> Ingredients:
> 1/2 oz Tequila (Herradura reposado)
> 1/2 oz Fernet Branca
> 1/2 oz Anisette (Cadenas)
>
>
> Erik Mattila
Cuevo is pure shite. Pedron is wonderful. I'm a to-kill-ya lover and the
sign of a good tequila is if you need salt and lime to do a shot. With
an above-average tequila, it should be smooth and sweet enough that you
don't need to cover up the taste. Pedron (the gold bottle, I think), is
so tasty that you'd never want to mix salt and lime juice with it.
Life is too short for crappy alcohol.
>
> Heather Henderson wrote:
>
> > In article <7stm90$d2v$1...@nntp.teliafi.net>, yli...@sqc.fi says...
> > > Heather Henderson <hea...@scc.net> wrote in message news:MPG.125bfacf8...@news.scc.net...
> > > > I can see why mixing vodka with Coke would be illegal. What an awful
> > > > combination.
> > >
> > > Well, Cuba Libre is a popular mixture of coke and white rum - there's not much difference.
> >
> > Not much difference between vodka and rum??? My mind is boggling. Remind
> > me never to drink any of your daiquiris :-)
> >
> > > Perhaps it should be renamed to "Russia Libre" to make it more attractive? :)
> > >
> > > What I don't understand is the popularity of "kossuvissy" among some circles.
> > > That's a mixture of Koskenkorva vodka and carbonated mineral water (Vichy)
> >
> > That doesn't sound too terrible. Has the designer-martini craze hit
> > Finland yet?
> >
Heather Henderson
says...
> Martha Hughes wrote:
> > Cuevo is pure shite. Pedron is wonderful. I'm a to-kill-ya lover and the
> > sign of a good tequila is if you need salt and lime to do a shot. With
> > an above-average tequila, it should be smooth and sweet enough that you
> > don't need to cover up the taste. Pedron (the gold bottle, I think), is
> > so tasty that you'd never want to mix salt and lime juice with it.
> >
> > Life is too short for crappy alcohol.
>
> can't remember. But you know, there are now some smart business people cultivating cottage industry tequila
> in Southern Mexico.
I think tequila tastes vile, unless it's cleverly disguised in a good
margarita. I've had a few that are less vile than the rest - there was
one called Cabrito that I almost liked - but in general, it's not for me.
Same with gin. And any kind of schnapps. Ugh! Life is too short to
drink something that tastes nasty.
So what is all this talk of Koskenkorva - don't Finns drink Finlandia, or
is that only for export? (All my Russian emigre friends drink Absolut -
I used to think it was for political reasons, but no, they just prefer
the taste.)
Erik A. Mattila
> Erik A. Mattila wrote:
> >
> > Since part of this post originated in Italy (thanks, Massimo), I would like to cite 'fernet branca.'
> > Years ago a friend took me to Tosca's in North Beach, San Francisco, and introduced the drink to me (it
> > was Henry Miller's favorite dirnk in Tropic of Cancer, BTW). All the old-timers at Tosca's were drinking
> > this. I watched the bartender mix Fernet Branca, Brandy and soda, and, if you like bitters, an excellent
> > drink--about three knocked me for a very pleasant loop. A couple of years later I was at my favorite
> > Italian delicatessen and I asked the proprietor if he had Fernet Branca, and he got a bottle out for me.
> > The label was in Italian, and I asked him to translate, and what he translated was dosage instructons for
> > treating anemia. Anyway, here's a Mexican recipe - puts 'wodka and coke' to shame. Looks like it would
> > work well as a replacement for tritetraclorethelyne as well as a iron poor blood medicine.
> >
> > Piedra Putamadre
> > Ingredients:
> > 1/2 oz Tequila (Herradura reposado)
> > 1/2 oz Fernet Branca
> > 1/2 oz Anisette (Cadenas)
> >
> > Oh, yes, after a bottle of Herradura (Horseshoe) you'll never love Cuerva again.
> >
> > Erik Mattila
>
> Cuevo is pure shite. Pedron is wonderful. I'm a to-kill-ya lover and the
> sign of a good tequila is if you need salt and lime to do a shot. With
> an above-average tequila, it should be smooth and sweet enough that you
> don't need to cover up the taste. Pedron (the gold bottle, I think), is
> so tasty that you'd never want to mix salt and lime juice with it.
>
> Life is too short for crappy alcohol.
Or, if your life is going to be short, you might just as well drink good booze. I think I tried Pedron once -
can't remember. But you know, there are now some smart business people cultivating cottage industry tequila
in Southern Mexico. It turns out that Indian villages all have guarded traditional recipes and make some very
wonderful swill. A Yucateca friend of my brought me a bottle a couple of years back, it was in a little clay
jar with a waxed-in cork, and some sisal netting around it, and it was really delicious. But Northern Mexico
has Bacanora, which I think is made with a unique cactus - maybe a distant cousin of the Maguey. It ususally
comes in mason jars, and it packs a punch (some claim it is an hallucinogen). You have to be very careful if
you're drinking it out of the jar, however. If you breathe in whilst sipping (your nose is in the jar) it
will instantly dissolve your sceptum. Try convincing the doctor that it wasn't cocaine that destroyed your
nose when you check in for reconstructive surgery.
Now I'm thirsty, and I only have water.
Erik Mattila
H...@hwm.net
>So what is all this talk of Koskenkorva - don't Finns drink Finlandia, or
>is that only for export?
It's the same generic rotgut in a just fancier bottle. Well, Koskenkorva is
38%
and reputedly has 1% sugar in it, so it might have some impurities that make
it taste slightly different. Dry Vodka at 40% taste(d) like a zinc pail and
then we also used to have 'Pöytäviina' i.e. 'Table Spirit' which was
something
akin to rubbing alcohol and reputedly you got splinters to your tongue as it
was a byproduct of pulp processing. Finlandia costs maybe 1/5 more a bottle
so basically you buy what is cheapest. After the manufacturing monopoly was
lifted we now have several other brands of rotgut available.
Nothing beats the 60% Red-lable Koskenkorva from the airport though when you
go to the south on a holiday. Best antidote for any Aztec two-step.
HWM hen...@iobox.fi
"posting nntp server, my kigdom for a posting nntp server!"
----- Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free Usenet News via the Web -----
----- http://newsone.net/ -- Discussions on every subject. -----
NewsOne.Net prohibits users from posting spam. If this or other posts
made through NewsOne.Net violate posting guidelines, email ab...@newsone.net
Electric Avenue
H...@HWM.net wrote:
>Nothing beats the 60% Red-lable Koskenkorva from the airport
>though when you go to the south on a holiday. Best antidote for
>any Aztec two-step.
This is very interesting! 'Mercans are always leary about drinking
the water and eating uncooked vegetables when visiting Mexico.
Have you any personal experience with this intestinal bacteriacide?
How much "medicine" is required to firm things up?
>HWM hen...@iobox.fi
>"posting nntp server, my kigdom for a posting nntp server!"
What's wrong with your ISP?
«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»
.....Electric.....
«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»
H...@shite.net
<Electric_Y...@Privacy.NuXX> writes:
> This is very interesting! 'Mercans are always leary about drinking
>the water and eating uncooked vegetables when visiting Mexico.
>Have you any personal experience with this intestinal bacteriacide?
>How much "medicine" is required to firm things up?
Getting an upset stomach is very easy - I got one when I returned to Finland
once from the Caribbean. Has to do with the bacteria, but is very individual.
And a Finn flying over to Florida is bound to get a queazy stomach as well.
Well, a few years back when I last visited Turkey I was in the habit of taking
a
glass of raki before and after a meal. My wife-to-be started bitching over me
drinking, and so I did not take any raki. That night I slept in the loo
simultaneously shitting and puking. "Revenge of Atatürk" I guess that
would be or an 'Ottoman two-step' if you please. The next day I bought
a bottle of local vodka (really terrible stuff), some lemonade and a
container of yoghurt. By noon I could not sit straight, but the nausea was
now trivial. The yoghurt helped replace the bacteria I had killed in
the process but really I could not enjoy farting the rest of the vacation.
This remedy is very hard and harsh and really is not what a doctor would
recommend. And I do not know if I could stand another such treatment so
I stick to the aperitif - digestif - "shut up woman" -routine in the south.
>>"posting nntp server, my kigdom for a posting nntp server!"
>
> What's wrong with your ISP?
I wish the fucks would tell me. I've sent them three (polite, rude, obscene)
emails asking what the hell is going on. Sometime around the 20th all of a
sudden the designated newsserver started replying with a 505. Well those
guys have had a wobbly server so I wrote them asking what is the matter again
- so they said my ISP's reading rights had been cancelled. My ISP has been
very quiet now for 2 weeks. I told them to calculate a simple equation:
"no news + no answers = no money" but if they have been pulled the plug due
to unpaid service bills I might be off the air soon. One small ISP did just
that stranding some 200 customers so I wouldn't be surprised. Then again they
just opened a new service in Turku so I'm befuddled over what the hell they
are screwing around. Deja's ad-o-rama is not fun with a modem, besides they
are screwed up now as well, so I need to read through Germany and post thru
North Carolina -from Finland. Ain't the world small?
HWM
Electric Avenue
H...@shite.net wrote:
>..... so I did not take any raki. That night I slept in the loo.....
>The next day I bought
>a bottle of local vodka (really terrible stuff), some lemonade and a
>container of yoghurt. By noon I could not sit straight, but the nausea was
>now trivial. The yoghurt helped replace the bacteria I had killed in
>the process but really I could not enjoy farting the rest of the vacation.
>This remedy is very hard and harsh and really is not what a doctor would
Yes, not being able to enjoy a good satisfying dry fart is a severe
denial of one of life's true and honest pleasures. The "treatment"
sounds effective, though. I assume you let some time and clean water
pass before you introduced the (unpasteurized) yoghurt culture? BTW,
some salt in the clean water would also have been good for you.
>My ISP has been
>very quiet now for 2 weeks
The shakeout is starting. The small mom-and-pop ISPs are
either going out of business or are being bought up by the big ISPs.
Even EarthLink and MindSpring decided to merge to survive. I hope
they aren't taken over in turn by the big communication giants.
«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»
.....Electric.....
«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»
Erik A. Mattila
breathing in local fugus spores. I accidently started reading a book by a
mycologist one time, and it was so dammed interesting I couldn't put it down. In
fact, the author claimed the main cause of dysentery when traveling into a new
area is fungal.
Erik
H...@shite.net wrote:
> In a previous article, "Electric Avenue"
> <Electric_Y...@Privacy.NuXX> writes:
>
> > This is very interesting! 'Mercans are always leary about drinking
> >the water and eating uncooked vegetables when visiting Mexico.
> >Have you any personal experience with this intestinal bacteriacide?
> >How much "medicine" is required to firm things up?
>
> Getting an upset stomach is very easy - I got one when I returned to Finland
> once from the Caribbean. Has to do with the bacteria, but is very individual.
>
> And a Finn flying over to Florida is bound to get a queazy stomach as well.
> Well, a few years back when I last visited Turkey I was in the habit of taking
> a
> glass of raki before and after a meal. My wife-to-be started bitching over me
> drinking, and so I did not take any raki. That night I slept in the loo
> simultaneously shitting and puking. "Revenge of Atatürk" I guess that
> would be or an 'Ottoman two-step' if you please. The next day I bought
> a bottle of local vodka (really terrible stuff), some lemonade and a
> container of yoghurt. By noon I could not sit straight, but the nausea was
> now trivial. The yoghurt helped replace the bacteria I had killed in
> the process but really I could not enjoy farting the rest of the vacation.
> This remedy is very hard and harsh and really is not what a doctor would
Nick Smith
>post-modern.
Hear hear. I would go so far as to suggest that post-modernist
philosophy is actually considerably less sane than "modernist"
philosophy. Post Modernism is relativism of the worst kind. It has a
hidden political agenda, particularly with regards to education andthe
philosophy thereof.
> The most active intellectual critics of post-modernism are old
>marxists feeling homeless among the ruins, and in full swing with endless
>monologues about dialogue and discourse, and how to save the World through
>honesty and earnesty.
I see myself and other people schooled in the Bertrand Russell,
Whitehead, Lakatos, Rene Descartes, Berkeley, Popper, Locke, Hume type
of philosophy as being the primary intellectual opponents of Post
Modernism. One of the most irritating things about it is that they
carefully obscure the logic or lack of it in their arguments with
words that they have invented for the purpose of speaking "in terms
which have no fixed meanings" between themselves and their
intellectual cronies. Post Modernist philosophy is philosophical
quackery. They also avoid actually stating what their position is and
spend their energy attacking "modernists".
>The fashion industry has to engage in something. The belief that something
>exists that is even more modern than modern, seems still to be tolerably
>progressive even for the fashionable. We ought to wait in tense expectation
>for what is behind the next horizon.
I suspect that these people just like the term, "Post Modernist" its
all "clever clever - ooh aren't we trendy and up with the play in
philosophy" without knowing what they are talking about. Knowing what
Post Modernism is, is of course, a difficult matter, because it is
difficult, if not impossible, to get a coherent comment from the "Post
Modernist" community on this subject.
>> There's also an aspect of a moral philosophy that comes to play when human
>> organize around a political principle or master plan. It's the old schism
>> between the means and ends. Do the ends justify the means? The
>> quasi-ideologies generated by the cold-war, packaged in the concept of the
>> national security state, express the belief that the ends do justify the
>> means. The critique of that moral philosophy, which comes from a concept of
>> humanism, says no. Fear and special interest might explain 'silence' to some
>> degree, but there is also the influence of the moral philosophy that the
>> atrocities are 'regrettable but necessary' to insure political security and the
>> welfare of the system. But I suppose that the individual's ideological
>> 'investment' into the system could be described as one of 'too many interests.'
Utilitarianism can be misused to justify atrocities - it can't be the
complete moral theory.
>> > One may understand the strong feelings among young people caught by these
>> > totalitarian movements, for two reasons: First, of course, because they
>> > promised a just society were everybody (belonging to the correct
>> > nationality, race or class) could realise all their potential, liberated
>> > from material need and with all the space in the World. The less sympathetic
>> > view is that the brutality and the contempt for weakness broadcasted by the
>> > movements, must have been experienced like just the empowerment that poor
>> > youngsters needed.
Bright eyed bushy tailed with all the best intentions but sucked in
badly by the cynical manipulators that simply wish to control
regardless of ideology. Karl Marx himself would have been executed by
Pol Pot and his goons for being an intellectual. pHD in Democritus
indeed.
Bless
Nik
Roger Williams
> Ir's a little strange to go all the way from Minnesota, though, isn't it?
> God knows there are some times during the year when you want to be
> practically anywhere else on earth, but building a railroad for Joe
> Stalin is hardly a more appealing alternative.
It sounds more appealing than spending the winter in Fargo, though.
--
{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{} \|/
{} RogerW rog...@newsguy.com {} 0< -- parrot.net!
{} http://www.parrot.net ad...@parrot.net {} ^^^^(*)^^^^
{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{} ^^ / \ ^^
Stein Rypern
>
> Also spracht Heather Henderson <hea...@scc.net>:
>
> > Ir's a little strange to go all the way from Minnesota, though, isn't it?
> > God knows there are some times during the year when you want to be
> > practically anywhere else on earth, but building a railroad for Joe
> > Stalin is hardly a more appealing alternative.
>
> It sounds more appealing than spending the winter in Fargo, though.
Which is in what state ? :-)
Smile
Stein
Heather Henderson
North Dakota is a vaster wasteland than Minnesota. I've seen it.
There's nothing there. South Dakota is a little better, but not much.
Stein Rypern
I can see that point of view - my wife had ancestors
(which came from Norway, hence a slight Nordic culture
connection) who settled in to North Dakota, and then
quickly decided to move to Minnesota.
The winters in ND apparently is even worse than in
Minnesota ...
But I must respectfully point out that people who
moved from Norway to about the only place on the
planet that has worse winters must have been almost
as crazy as people leaving the US for communist
Russia :-)
Great farming land, though - for farmers it
must have been heaven on earth to move from a
country where only 3% of the land is arrable
to a place where you could use all your land
for crops.
Smile
Stein
Heather Henderson
> Heather Henderson wrote:
> > North Dakota is a vaster wasteland than Minnesota.
> > I've seen it. There's nothing there. South Dakota
> > is a little better, but not much.
>
> I can see that point of view - my wife had ancestors
> (which came from Norway, hence a slight Nordic culture
> connection) who settled in to North Dakota, and then
> quickly decided to move to Minnesota.
>
> The winters in ND apparently is even worse than in
> Minnesota ...
Minnesotans are proud to tell you that only 2% of the world's population
lives in a colder climate - probably a big chunk of that 2% lives in the
Dakotas.
> But I must respectfully point out that people who
> moved from Norway to about the only place on the
> planet that has worse winters must have been almost
> as crazy as people leaving the US for communist
> Russia :-)
Agreed. But they should have kept going West. The weather gets nicer
once you're out of the Great Plains. Of course, there's one small
problem - there are a couple of large mountains in the way :-)
> Great farming land, though - for farmers it
> must have been heaven on earth to move from a
> country where only 3% of the land is arrable
> to a place where you could use all your land
> for crops.
Yes, that must be why they stuck out the winters. I don't know how they
managed it - it's bad enough when you have heat, insulation, electricity
and all the modern conveniences.
On second thought, I shouldn't say there's "nothing" in North Dakota - I
think most of our nukes are up there.
Stan Jacobson
> The winters in ND apparently is even worse than in
> Minnesota ...
>
Minnesota.
Stan in tropical southern Minny.
Stein Rypern
>
> In article <37FBB3...@online.nospam>,
> ste...@online.nospam says...
> > Heather Henderson wrote:
> > > North Dakota is a vaster wasteland than Minnesota.
> > > I've seen it. There's nothing there. South Dakota
> > > is a little better, but not much.
> >
> > I can see that point of view - my wife had ancestors
> > (which came from Norway, hence a slight Nordic culture
> > connection) who settled in to North Dakota, and then
> > quickly decided to move to Minnesota.
> >
> > Minnesota ...
>
> world's population lives in a colder climate
You know, I'll believe that. I have been out in in
an army tent in the mountains of Northern Norway at
47 below zero (at that level it doesn't matter much
if you use celsius or fahrenheit, since -40C equals
-40F).
But I have never in my life been so cold as I was
one winter day in Minnesota a couple of years ago.
The temperature wasn't all that low - maybe 25C below
freezing. But the wind coming in from the plains made
it *really* bad.
So I prefer Norwegian winter climate. We are
*way* further north (Oslo is as far north as
Anchorage, Alaska, Tromso like the North Slope
of Alaska), but we have mountains to break the
wind, and the Gulf stream along the coast to
keep us from freezing solid in the winter time.
Smile
Stein
Erik A. Mattila
used to mail me her issues of "Northern Neighbors," magazine, which was
published in Canada and was page after page of soviet propaganda. I would
search through the pages looking for pictures of good looking babes - but they
were all sitting on tractors and looked like they were good at karate.
But she may have had a point about the Czarists Bureucrats. In fact, maybe the
bureaucracy never did change and brought SU to its knees (and still
continues). The enemy within. I don't know how it is in Finland, but here in
the US bureaucrats seem unseasonably nasty -- like they hate their jobs and
especially hate the public. I've encountered more than one who I felt
convinced were totally opposed to providing the service they were being paid to
provide.
Erik Mattila
Heather Henderson
> But I have never in my life been so cold as I was
> one winter day in Minnesota a couple of years ago.
> The temperature wasn't all that low - maybe 25C below
> freezing. But the wind coming in from the plains made
> it *really* bad.
The wind isn't too bad here in the Twin Cities but it does get really
dry.
> So I prefer Norwegian winter climate. We are
> *way* further north (Oslo is as far north as
> Anchorage, Alaska, Tromso like the North Slope
> of Alaska), but we have mountains to break the
> wind, and the Gulf stream along the coast to
> keep us from freezing solid in the winter time.
We're so far inland that we don't have the ameliorating effects of the
ocean. However, one good aspect is that it's so dry and cold that we
almost never have problems with ice storms, which plagued us when we
lived on the East Coast. Nothing is quite as annoying as having to chip
your car out of a solid casing of ice, especially when you're already
late for work...
Ari Joro
> Thanks, Lustig, that's really cool. Yep, that's granny alright. For years she
> used to mail me her issues of "Northern Neighbors," magazine, which was
> published in Canada and was page after page of soviet propaganda. I would
> search through the pages looking for pictures of good looking babes - but they
> were all sitting on tractors and looked like they were good at karate.
> But she may have had a point about the Czarists Bureucrats. In fact, maybe the
> bureaucracy never did change and brought SU to its knees (and still
> continues). The enemy within. I don't know how it is in Finland, but here in
> the US bureaucrats seem unseasonably nasty -- like they hate their jobs and
> especially hate the public. I've encountered more than one who I felt
> convinced were totally opposed to providing the service they were being paid to
> provide.
> > You´re right - the main informant is Emma Mattila-Tuominen! She was
> > interviewed in August 1972 by the author, who is William R. Copeland.
> > remnants of the old Czarist bureacracy.
"Northern Neighbors" magazines may now be collector items.
We searched karate babes from Anttila catalogs http://www.anttila.fi/
Finnish government apparatus is even worse: Swedish 1700's laws,
Czarist 1800's bureacracy and Finnish 1930's type bureaucrats who
wait citizens to prove that they have to do their job and undone
job beeing official misconduct. Are bureaucrats who do nothing
good or bad ?
--
Ari J.
long ago trainee in Friendly Frontier Guard
http://www.intermin.fi/raja/uk_frameset.htm
HWM
>Nothing is quite as annoying as having to chip
> your car out of a solid casing of ice, especially when you're already
> late for work...
Shucks! i can't convince of you of having tough times ( unless you have
needed to pay 120% car tax on the 1986 Yugo to survive the ice storm
initially...
Cheers, | The conformity of purpose will be achieved |
HWM | through the mutual satisfaction of requirements.|
"Mind the gap"=> hen...@iobox.fi & http://www.kuru.da.ru
Heather Henderson
says...
> Heather Henderson wrote:
> >Nothing is quite as annoying as having to chip
> > your car out of a solid casing of ice, especially when you're already
> > late for work...
>
> Shucks! i can't convince of you of having tough times ( unless you have
> needed to pay 120% car tax on the 1986 Yugo to survive the ice storm
> initially...
Wow, you still have Yugos? I'm impressed! (Sort of... :-))
OK, your car tax is bad, but do you have to deal with all the mammoth
Suburban Assault Vehicles being driven by yuppies who are otherwise
occupied with using their cell phones/beepers/faxes/laptops?
Roger Williams
> Heather Henderson wrote:
>>
>> In article <37FAE9...@online.nospam>, ste...@online.nospam says...
>> > Roger Williams wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Also spracht Heather Henderson <hea...@scc.net>:
>> > >
>> > > > Ir's a little strange to go all the way from Minnesota, though, isn't it?
>> > > > God knows there are some times during the year when you want to be
>> > > > practically anywhere else on earth, but building a railroad for Joe
>> > > > Stalin is hardly a more appealing alternative.
>> > >
>> > > It sounds more appealing than spending the winter in Fargo, though.
>> >
>> > Which is in what state ? :-)
>>
>> North Dakota is a vaster wasteland than Minnesota.
>> I've seen it. There's nothing there. South Dakota
>> is a little better, but not much.
> I can see that point of view - my wife had ancestors
> (which came from Norway, hence a slight Nordic culture
> connection) who settled in to North Dakota, and then
> quickly decided to move to Minnesota.
> The winters in ND apparently is even worse than in
> Minnesota ...
Minnesota has trees to slow down the wind; the Dakotas have next to
nothing. The coldest low elevation temperatures in the US have been
recorded in North Dakota. Every winter, entire herds of cattle freeze to
death in freak storms when a massive cold front goes whipping down the
plains at 80 mph. I love cold weather, but North Dakota is overkill (and
this from a man who likes walking in downtown Minneapolis in February
wearing a short sleeve shirt).
Roger Williams
> Minnesotans are proud to tell you that only 2% of the world's population
> lives in a colder climate - probably a big chunk of that 2% lives in the
> Dakotas.
Or Saskatchewan. Now that. That's cold.
Stein Rypern
>
> I love cold weather, but North Dakota is overkill
> (and this from a man who likes walking in downtown
> Minneapolis in February wearing a short sleeve
> shirt).
What's weird about T-shirts in the winter ? A Real
Nordic (tm) doesn't freeze - he just turns blue and
stop talking eventually ...
Smile,
Stein
HWM
> Wow, you still have Yugos? I'm impressed! (Sort of... :-))
The average age of a car on the road was it now 12 years, so yes, still
some Yugos and whatnots driving around. We got though the older model of
the Yugo here known as a Fiat Zastava, not the square box they exported
to the USA. Same clunker though. And no, I have got a 87 Daewoo Lemans
now, which if only the Opel parts fit, shall keep me for atleast the
next ten years.
> OK, your car tax is bad, but do you have to deal with all the mammoth
> Suburban Assault Vehicles being driven by yuppies who are otherwise
> occupied with using their cell phones/beepers/faxes/laptops?
Beepers? haven't seen one in ages, probably few in the technology
museum. The SUV type cars are gaining popularity here but it is rather
families that need to be taking the kids around that buy them. Phones
are bad, but most people have the 'schizoid man talking to himself'
-versions these days and a hands-off set in the car too.
Heather Henderson
says...
> > OK, your car tax is bad, but do you have to deal with all the mammoth
> > Suburban Assault Vehicles being driven by yuppies who are otherwise
> > occupied with using their cell phones/beepers/faxes/laptops?
>
> Beepers? haven't seen one in ages, probably few in the technology
> museum.
I see them constantly, but that's because my husband and most of our
friends here are doctors. They're forever leaping up and rushing to the
nearest phone (usually at inopportune moments). It would be sensible to
have a cell phone with a built-in beeper but I haven't seen any on the
market.
> The SUV type cars are gaining popularity here but it is rather
> families that need to be taking the kids around that buy them.
That's the excuse, of course...
Niklas Tötterman
wrote:
> > OK, your car tax is bad, but do you have to deal with all the mammoth
> > Suburban Assault Vehicles being driven by yuppies who are otherwise
> > occupied with using their cell phones/beepers/faxes/laptops?
>
> Beepers? haven't seen one in ages, probably few in the technology
> museum.
The beepers are out - definitely. The beeper service [in Finland] will
be cancelled within a couple of months, due to lack of subscribers.
Well, no one will suffer from that, except some ornitologists who have
found it a good channel to relay spotting info to each other...
--
"Who is this general failure, and
why is he reading my disk ?"
Niklas Tötterman | http://www.sit.fi/~nico
Remove "nosuchanimalasspam" from my IN%
Niklas Tötterman
A true Nordic(tm) isn't stupid enough to run around with
his shorts ( and t-shirt ) in the winter. He(she) uses lessons
learned from previous experiences and puts something
warm on. E.g.woollen underwear, padded pants, a woollen
shirt and a parka is quite good. Not to mention a pair of sturdy
boots.
The difference between courage and stupidity is sometimes
hair thin.
Niklas Tötterman
HWM
> It would be sensible to
> have a cell phone with a built-in beeper but I haven't seen any on the
> market.
Not understanding, can you not call into a mobile phone in the US?
Heather Henderson
says...
> Heather Henderson wrote:
> > It would be sensible to
> > have a cell phone with a built-in beeper but I haven't seen any on the
> > market.
>
> Not understanding, can you not call into a mobile phone in the US?
Sure, but many people still use beepers in combination with their phones.
Probably there's a cost issue. In the case of the docs, the beepers are
loaned to them by the hospital. Maybe someday the hospital will be
handing out phones instead, but I can see that as being an admin headache
- trying to figure out which calls were doc business and which not, etc.
Thomson McFarlane
Heather Henderson <hea...@scc.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.12684099f...@news.scc.net...
[snip]
> I see them constantly, but that's because my husband and
most of our
> friends here are doctors. They're forever leaping up and
rushing to the
> nearest phone (usually at inopportune moments). It would
be sensible to
> have a cell phone with a built-in beeper but I haven't
seen any on the
> market.
Send text messages to the mobile phone, i.e. if such a
service is available.
I work for a company supplying control systems, and in some
cases the systems
can be controlling over large distances, for example on a
city water supply. If
the control system detects a problem, say a pump failure,
automatically from the
control system, then the maintenance personnel can receive a
message detailing
which pump, and they can then quickly go to where ever in
the city that is, thus vastly
reducing reaction time.
I can conceive of a hospital, reasonably easily, having its'
communications, in such
a way, as to include computers, which can issue quick
response messages, say
call the hospital, come in etc., to the doctors.
Thomson
------------------------------------------------------------
----------
"Oh wad some power the giftie gie us
To see oursel's as others see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us,
And foolish notion." Rabbie Burns
Thomson McFarlane
thomson....@nelesautomation.com
tm...@sci.fi
All my opinions are my own, wholly my own and nothing but my
own.
------------------------------------------------------------
----------
BUDICA
I never knew/understood where Post-modernism came from, but your theory makes
sense. For myself, I have just avoided post-modernists, especially in Lit, cuz
them seemed like anal-retentive lost souls. :)
Elaine
P.S. a thought for turning 50 - it's from Freud so you may know it already,
but I have found myself doing it (irresistably) for many months and I just
recently read about it - namely that Freud thought 'people regularly
re-interpret/evaluate their past in order to create and enhance their future.'
This may be obvious to some but I did wonder at times if I was getting batty
and sentimental! LOL!
HWM
> Sure, but many people still use beepers in combination with their phones.
> Probably there's a cost issue. In the case of the docs, the beepers are
> loaned to them by the hospital. Maybe someday the hospital will be
> handing out phones instead, but I can see that as being an admin headache
> - trying to figure out which calls were doc business and which not, etc.
Well, we have people 'on call' who have a special 'on call' phone given
to them. Basically you have the phone so that you can be reached, not
that you can call 9800-hot-sex-chicken or your mother-in-law. So any
calls are for business only basically. And you always can tell where the
calls go to, so the admin can actually hit the gossiping doc's salary by
a simple breakdown of the bill.
The reason I think behind all this is probably because the beepers used
to cost hideously much and were not much used here, the mobile phones
quickly took the ground, whereas in the US due to the compatibility
problems cell phones were not much use and the beepers were much more
convenient. To add to the fact that you have phone booths scattered all
around (the desert even) -you can call to them, you have a live person
as an 'operator' and the charge is not a dollar before you even get a
dial tone... We adapted to the cell phone, as finding a bloody phone
booth is quite impossible these days.
Stein Rypern
>
> On Fri, 08 Oct 1999 22:48:06 +0100, Stein Rypern
> <ste...@online.nospam> wrote:
>
> > Roger Williams wrote:
> > >
> > > I love cold weather, but North Dakota is overkill
> > > (and this from a man who likes walking in downtown
> > > Minneapolis in February wearing a short sleeve
> > > shirt).
> >
> > What's weird about T-shirts in the winter ? A Real
> > Nordic (tm) doesn't freeze - he just turns blue and
> > stop talking eventually ...
>
> A true Nordic(tm) isn't stupid enough to run around with
> his shorts ( and t-shirt ) in the winter. He(she) uses lessons
> learned from previous experiences and puts something
> warm on. E.g.woollen underwear, padded pants, a woollen
> shirt and a parka is quite good. Not to mention a pair of sturdy
> boots.
>
> The difference between courage and stupidity is sometimes
> hair thin.
The difference between having a sense of humor and being of
Swedish ancestry sometimes is very obvious ... :-)
Smile,
Stein
Jouni Remes
> The reason I think behind all this is probably because the beepers
> used
> to cost hideously much and were not much used here, the mobile phones
> quickly took the ground, whereas in the US due to the compatibility
> problems cell phones were not much use and the beepers were much more
> convenient. To add to the fact that you have phone booths scattered
> all
There's a very essential difference in call pricing between USA and
Europe: in USAthe mobile owner always pays the airtime whereas in Europe
the airtime is usually paid
by the caller (excluding roaming costs when the GSM you are calling to
is actually abroad).
BTW, about 8 years ago I was pretty furious trying to find a coin
operated phone booth in Boulogne, France. Almost all of the booths were
for card phones; I didn't like the idea of buying a call card for one
single call.
HWM
Jouni Remes <jouni...@pp.inet.fi> wrote:
> There's a very essential difference in call pricing between USA and
> Europe: in USAthe mobile owner always pays the airtime whereas in
> Europe the airtime is usually paid by the caller (excluding roaming
> costs when the GSM you are calling to is actually abroad).
But is it not still true that you don't even have one standard GSM in
the USA but every company is making their own? this meaning you manage
to get a small dink carrier on the east coast you drive across the
continent and your phone is dead most of the way?
> BTW, about 8 years ago I was pretty furious trying to find a coin
> operated phone booth in Boulogne, France. Almost all of the booths
> were for card phones; I didn't like the idea of buying a call card
> for one single call.
This is the situation in Finland ( lo and behold only three major card
standards any more) so I don't wonder any more why GSM's are so popular.
Gee- I just bought a "new" one for $10 or something. Darn bugger cost
me $20 for a new battery though.
--
Cheers,| The conformity of purpose will be achieved |
HWM | through the mutual satisfaction of requirements.|
hen...@iobox.fi & http://www.kuru.da.ru
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jouni Remes
> But is it not still true that you don't even have one standard GSM in
> the USA but every company is making their own? this meaning you manage
>
> to get a small dink carrier on the east coast you drive across the
> continent and your phone is dead most of the way?
>
AFAIK the GSM standard is applied similarly in all companies using it.As
a matter of fact, that's the only possibility because GSM standard is
specified by a international body (MOU or something like that) where
both
the mobile phone manufacturers like Nokia and operators are included.
IF an operator tries to make up their own "GSM standard" that's not GSM
any
more, period.
The problem in USA is that there are several technologies in use and
actually
most mobile networks are still analogical, not digital.
Roger Williams
> Roger Williams wrote:
>> I love cold weather, but North Dakota is overkill
>> (and this from a man who likes walking in downtown
>> Minneapolis in February wearing a short sleeve
>> shirt).
> What's weird about T-shirts in the winter ? A Real
> Nordic (tm) doesn't freeze - he just turns blue and
> stop talking eventually ...
Yes, but I'm hardly what you call "Nordic", real or otherwise. I simply
wait all godawful summer for cold weather. During that same trip to
Minneapolis, I went a few hours up north on the shore of Lake Superior. I
can assure you, THAT was winter clothing weather (45 mph winds,
temperatures dipping into the low -20 F range). And as for going coatless
in *Fargo*, well ....
Hiski Haapoja
: convenient. To add to the fact that you have phone booths scattered all
: around (the desert even) -you can call to them, you have a live person
: as an 'operator' and the charge is not a dollar before you even get a
: dial tone... We adapted to the cell phone, as finding a bloody phone
: booth is quite impossible these days.
I always found a phone booth when I needed one. The problems are:
1) they smell like hell, because people piss in them, 2) the phone
book is always torn into pieces and 3) the stupid phone cards.
Using a regular phone becomes more expensive all the time, and
moving to another flat causes a sky-high fee for phone relocation.
This prompts people to switch into Nokia users, even though that
is even more expensive and causes cancer in your brain.
Hiski
--
# Christianity is the most widely spread mental illness in the world. #
lustig
(Heather Henderson) wrote:
> Sure, but many people still use beepers in combination with their
> phones. Probably there's a cost issue. In the case of the docs, the
> beepers are loaned to them by the hospital. Maybe someday the
> hospital will be handing out phones instead.
Last time I visited a friend in a hospital, there were signs telling
visitors to shut off their mobile phones - their signals could
interfere with the life-sustaining equipment in the hospital.
(Apparently the beepers work on a different principle/frequency.)
Arne Kolstad
BUDICA <bud...@aol.com> skrev i
news:19991009131207...@ng-ci1.aol.com
> Arne,
> I never knew/understood where Post-modernism came from, but your theory
makes
> sense. For myself, I have just avoided post-modernists, especially in
Lit, cuz
> them seemed like anal-retentive lost souls. :)
We should both be proud of it, and raise our heads above the level of
Freudian insinuations. As I see it, the main reason to avoid post-modernists
is that they are dweebs.
> Elaine
> P.S. a thought for turning 50 - it's from Freud so you may know it
already,
> but I have found myself doing it (irresistably) for many months and I just
> recently read about it - namely that Freud thought 'people regularly
> re-interpret/evaluate their past in order to create and enhance their
future.'
That is a trick reserved for men in bars. Trust me, it never works.
> This may be obvious to some but I did wonder at times if I was getting
batty
> and sentimental! LOL!
yeah, well.
/Arne
lustig
<emat...@tomatoweb.com> wrote:
> Yep, that's granny alright.
Another article mentioned that she was also something of a journalist:
she frequently sent articles to the Finnish newspapers both in Soviet
Karelia and in Astoria (which at one point had no less than three
Finnish newspapers/weeklies).
It´s also suggested that there may have been a factor apart from
idological or pioneering zeal: a law restricting fishing on Columbia
River prohibited the nets used by Finns, and this meants the loss of
thousands of dollars of investment. (I think this may have been a
secondary impetus.)
Though it´s clear that there was an element of Utopist thinking in the
project, it was not all a castle in the clouds. They picked a place
with an existing port, a railway line, a field saw etc, but it seems
they were totally unable to imagine it would be so much different from
the US or Finland. John Anttila had done the scouting job, and the only
thing he got wrong was the steady abundance of salmon, and the
attitudes of the locals...
There was also a Murmansk Fishing Collective (which owned the Arctic
sea fishing rights) in tthat was supposed to co-operate on the project,
but it seems they were mainly interested in seeing the KFC fail as soon
as possible. (Well, that´s what any big business would do to a
competitor...)
The KFC was situated in a village called Knäsö on the White Sea, in the
"armpit" of the Kolan Peninsula; the nearest place that one could find
on a normal map would be Kantalahti (Kandhalaksha).
Ari Joro
> Heather Henderson wrote:
> > Sure, but many people still use beepers in combination with their
> > phones. Probably there's a cost issue. In the case of the docs, the
> > beepers are loaned to them by the hospital. Maybe someday the
> > hospital will be handing out phones instead.
> Last time I visited a friend in a hospital, there were signs telling
> visitors to shut off their mobile phones - their signals could
> interfere with the life-sustaining equipment in the hospital.
> (Apparently the beepers work on a different principle/frequency.)
Helsingin Sanomat today (International edition):
"Finnish hospitals appear to be loosening their earlier stringent restrictions
on the use of mobile phones in response to the new generation of so-called
"city phones", which have to some extent replaced pagers. Patients in some
hospitals have already been given a serious shock by the increased use of cellphones.
One patient reported that he was scared half to death when the surgeon's phone
rang while in the operating theatre."
...
"but certain restrictions have emerged recently, for example in some petrol
stations, and at schools (both to maintain a measure of quiet and to ward off the
temptation of cheating in exams), and even for some reason in tax offices."
http://www.helsinki-hs.net/today/111099-03.html
--
Ari J.
future phone:
http://www.benefon.com/pressinvestors/pressroom/1999/escgbrelease.html
Heather Henderson
says...
> Heather Henderson wrote:
>
> > Sure, but many people still use beepers in combination with their phones.
> > Probably there's a cost issue. In the case of the docs, the beepers are
> > loaned to them by the hospital. Maybe someday the hospital will be
> > - trying to figure out which calls were doc business and which not, etc.
>
> Well, we have people 'on call' who have a special 'on call' phone given
> to them. Basically you have the phone so that you can be reached, not
> that you can call 9800-hot-sex-chicken or your mother-in-law. So any
> calls are for business only basically. And you always can tell where the
> calls go to, so the admin can actually hit the gossiping doc's salary by
> a simple breakdown of the bill.
Yeah, but try to get the admin to spend time doing the "simple breakdown"
for X number of docs... Anyway, I think it's mainly that the phones cost
much more than the beepers and the hospital doesn't feel like shelling
out the $$$.
Unrelated to cell phones or indeed to Nordic culture, but I figure you
furriners will get a kick out of this little glimpse into the mind of an
average American: my husband was working in an ER this weekend when a
woman came in complaining of severe migraine headaches. Apparently she
wasn't taking her prescription medication for the migraines, so they were
causing her great pain. He asked her why she went off the meds, and she
said "Because I'm breastfeeding my baby." OK. But then in further
conversation it turned out that the baby was 17 months old. My husband
suggested that perhaps it was time for her to stop breastfeeding. She
said, "Oh no, I have to keep doing it until January." Why? "Because of
this Y2K thing. I'm afraid something will happen and I won't be able to
get baby formula!"
Electric Avenue
Heather Henderson wrote:
>I figure you furriners will get a kick out of this little glimpse
>into the mind of an average American:
son until past 20 months old>
Heather.... Heather. Now, now - you know that is not typical
of a 'Mercan woman. A typical 'Mercan woman agonizes over
whether to breastfeed for fear that after breastfeeding is done,
her enlarged boobs will deflate and sag. In any event, every
'Mercan woman I have ever known would start weaning a child
before it was one year old.
«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»
.....Electric.....
«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»
HWM
hea...@scc.net (Heather Henderson) wrote:
> Yeah, but try to get the admin to spend time doing the "simple
> breakdown" for X number of docs
Very simple if you get the bills in an electronic form, and I am sure
the phone company can sort bills (if they are willing to) according to
the customer's preference. As you said, it's the cheap people holding
the pursestrings I suppose too.
Sturle Fladmark
> BUDICA <bud...@aol.com> skrev i
> news:19991009131207...@ng-ci1.aol.com
> > Arne,
> > I never knew/understood where Post-modernism came from, but your theory
> > makes sense. For myself, I have just avoided post-modernists, especially in
> > Lit, cuz them seemed like anal-retentive lost souls. :)
>
> We should both be proud of it, and raise our heads above the level of
> Freudian insinuations. As I see it, the main reason to avoid post-modernists
> is that they are dweebs.
Postmodernists are a ... virus.
A disease that has infested this planet,
and we simply need a cure. (*)
:)
--
Sturle Fladmark
author of:
"Killing Postmodernists
for Profit and Fun." :)
(*) Matrixuesque