The "REAL" Mexico
Jesus R. Moncada
around November/December of this year (91). My main objective in visiting
(vacationing) in Mexico is so that I may learn and understand my Mexican
culture. Do you have any suggestions as to what cities I should visit.
Raul
P.s., My only experience with Mexico has been the border towns. I have heard
that I have not seen the "REAL" Mexico.
Marco Pinones-Inclan
>I am a Mexican American born in Texas. I am planning my first visit to Mexico
>around November/December of this year (91). My main objective in visiting
>(vacationing) in Mexico is so that I may learn and understand my Mexican
>culture. Do you have any suggestions as to what cities I should visit.
Try the southeast. Lost of civilization there.
Then go to Mexico City. Go to the 'mercados'.
Marco
Enrique Cortes-Rello
If I had only ONE choice I would pick ..... OAXACA
^^^^^^
(with a side trip to Puerto
Escondido / Puerto Angel)
my next choice would be ... MERIDA
(with a side trip to UXMAL and
if you have the time Isla
Mujeres and/or Cozumel BUT NOT
Cancun)
next one .... MEXICO CITY
(DOWNTOWN with a side trip
to Taxco)
Enrique
=========================================================
Enrique Cortes-Rello
Arizona State University
Intelligent Information Systems Lab
cor...@asuvax.eas.asu.edu
=========================================================
victor.m.mendoza-grado
Don't worry, many of us who spent some time farther south are still
in search of the "REAL" Mexico. 1/2:-)
It depends on what you want to see. The traditional Mexico is to the
south with the colonial regions in the center and spread around. The
north is more modern and less touristical, no inherited beaches from
the Maya gods and such, but there are some other landscapes. Of course,
in the north you can find the traits of the Mexican culture that tend to
survive better in the US Southwest.
I'm sure this topic is destined to become a FAQ in this group, as
more and more people visit Tijuana. :-)
--
_____________________________________________________________
Victor M. Mendoza Grado mendoz...@att.com
AT&T Bell Laboratories ...!att!iexist!victor
Ernesto Alvaradocelestino
>In article <4500...@hpcc01.corp.hp.com>, monc...@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Jesus R. Moncada) writes:
>>
>> P.s., My only experience with Mexico has been the border towns. I have heard
>> that I have not seen the "REAL" Mexico.
Coahuila may be as hot as hell (oh yeah, that's Monterrey) but it is Mexico.
It may not be as attractive for tourists because it's a new city (about 75
years old), just like the majority of the cities in the north. If you have
time, ride the bus and stop in each state before getting to Oaxaca, you
won't be disappointed of seeing the change in landscape, people's attitudes
and customs. Pretend you're Mexican or you'll get what Gringo tourists
get: higher prices. Don't forget the food, taste the regional dishes and
listen the local music. In some towns, the weekends are great to go to the
plaza and listen the local band, eat or drink the regional food and have
fun.
>
>
>If I had only ONE choice I would pick ..... OAXACA
> ^^^^^^
>
> (with a side trip to UXMAL and
> if you have the time Isla
> Mujeres and/or Cozumel BUT NOT
>
> (DOWNTOWN with a side trip
> to Taxco)
>
Michoacan and Jalisco), then Yucatan and Oaxaca, of couse stopping by
Veracruz.
Oh well, I'm getting home-sick.
Ernesto Alvarado
Carlos Obregon
>around November/December of this year (91). My main objective in visiting
>(vacationing) in Mexico is so that I may learn and understand my Mexican
>culture. Do you have any suggestions as to what cities I should visit.
>
There are many places you can go to learn and understand about our Mexican
culture. I will just mention a few because books have been written on the
subject.
To find about many of our roots you want to go to Mexico City. Go to El
Museo de Antropologia (take 2 or 3 days to slowly discover and enjoy this
unique museum), El Templo Mayor (in the heart of the City), Teotihuacan
(Las piramides), La Basilica de Guadalupe (watch the devotion that these
people have), La Catedral, Palacio Nacional (this is our equivalent to the
White House; look for Diego Rivera's murals everywhere).
The tourist places in Mexico City include La Zona Rosa (Cafes, restaurants,
boutiques, etc. You have to have Enchiladas at Sanborns, tacos at Beatriz,
and a torta at a place near VIPS), El Angel de la Independencia, El Palacio de
Bellas Artes (don't you miss El Ballet de Amalia Hernandez - impressive!!),
and many other places.
Among the cities outside Mexico City that you may want to visit (paisanos,
por favor no se ofendan si no menciono sus ciudades) are Guanajuato, San
Miguel de Allende, Cuernavaca, Taxco, Merida (and all the Mayan ruins nearby:
Chichenitza, Tulum, Uxmal, etc), Oaxaca, Guadalajara, Tlaquepaque, and so on.
I would recommend to go in December because the Christmas festivities are so
lively during this time (Las posadas, los nacimientos, ..... ya me estoy
poniendo muy melancolico).
Hope this helps,
Carlos Obregon
--
Carlos D. Obregon Canosa * "Mexico, Creo en Ti"
car...@digital.sps.mot.com *
### Disclaimer: All comments are my own and do not represent my employer's ###
--
Carlos Saul Menem
Boy this is a touchy subject. Because I grew up here in San
Diego, I've visited Tijuana more times than I can count, and until
the summer of 89, it was the only "Mexico" that I knew. During that
summer, I took the bus down to Mexico City, and visited the tourist
spots on a tight budget. Last year I tood the bus all over the
Republica and went into Guatemala and Belize, and this year I went
down to Mexico City again, to visity some friends in Amecameca, and
I also got to see the states of Hidalgo and Puebla. I think I've
been in all but 6 states. Now for me, the problem is deciding what
the "real" mexico is. After each trip I think I've found a "new"
mexico, and sure I have my favorite places (Villahermosa, Ameca
etc), and I use to think that they were the "real" mexico. I once
told a group of friends of mine that I thought that Tijuana wasn't
the "real" mexico, but then one of my friends (who was from TJ) said
"great, then I must not be a real mexican". I think we've got to be
careful in how we state things, and although mexico is diverse, as
is every country, it is all the "real" mexico.
flaco
pd La manera "real" de llegar al DF es en camion, no en avion!! :-)
Ernesto Alvarado
>
>flaco
>
>pd La manera "real" de llegar al DF es en camion, no en avion!! :-)
es la mejor opcion, y por supuesto visitar los mercados y entrarle a la fruta,
que supongo que todavia es barata.
Y por supuesto no hay que hacer caso a los "travel advisories" que emite
creo que el Departamento de Estado. Si sigues al pie de la letra lo que
dicen, te vas a perder de conocer Mexico. Una experiencia que tuve el an~o
anterior que fui con una delegacion del USDA a Mexico, de Washington D.C.
nos pagaron todo el tratamiento preventivo que incluia desde vacunas y
pastillas para proteger el estomago. De los que fuimos solo una sen~ora
lo tomo. Los demas frecuentabamos los mercados (como el Mercado de antojitos
de Uruapan). Mi unico consejo es que no hay que abusar de los mercados.
Ernesto
Gabriel Villalobos
>In article <1991Sep10.1...@ennews.eas.asu.edu>, cor...@enuxva.eas.asu.edu (Enrique Cortes-Rello) writes:
>|> In article <4500...@hpcc01.corp.hp.com>, monc...@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Jesus R. Moncada) writes:
>|> > I am a Mexican American born in Texas. I am planning my first visit to Mexico
>|> > around November/December of this year (91). My main objective in visiting
>|> > (vacationing) in Mexico is so that I may learn and understand my Mexican
>|> > culture. Do you have any suggestions as to what cities I should visit.
>|> >
>|> >
>|> > P.s., My only experience with Mexico has been the border towns. I have heard
>|> > that I have not seen the "REAL" Mexico.
>|>
>|>
>|> ^^^^^^
>
>Try to get a hold of a tour guide booklet for Oaxaca, then rent a vw bug and
>drive from Oaxaca city to Puerto Angel. Awesome drive over the Sierra Madre.
>
>Also someone suggested about visiting the mercados. You get some of the
>best food at these places. In Oaxaca you'll find the best chocolate caliente and
>in Merida try some "Salbutes". (Some real mezcal too.)
>
>But I really do not know other places like Michoacan and Chiapas which I heard
>are incredible.
>
>Feliz viaje!
>
>Erich Hentschel
>FIU, Miami, Fla.
>hent...@serss0.fiu.edu
SOUTH --> OAXACA
I agree with Erich, is actually one of the most interesting trips anybody would
like to make, starting in Oaxaca, stop at Miahuatlan, get supplies, go to the
market and buy some "mole negro", get some excellent coffee from the highlands,
how about some queso,(cheese), and of course the best Mezcal there is, but
actually you should get it from Tula, and after Miahuatlan, you start going up
the Sierra, spectacular view!!, and the next town is the great San Jose del
Pacifico, is a 2,3 days visit, you will find out why, and then after San Jose
down hill to the beach, first you will hit Puerto Angel, but the real beach is
Xipolite,(playa de los muertos), nudist beach, natural beauty, and then from
Puerto Angel go further South to the magic town of Huatulco, the most beautiful
small bays/beaches that can be access only by 'lancha'/boat, very non-touristic
by the way.
NORTHWEST --> GUAYMAS
Now I would like to mention few places in the North of Mexico, specially where
the dessert meets the ocean, and that is GUAYMAS, and try the camarones
a la plancha, delicious o pollos de parilla, then go south about an hour, I
forgot the name of the town, but that is where you catch the train that goes
through "La Sierra del Cobre", incredible.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
WESTCOAST --> JALISCO
Jalisco, and the place is Costa Careyes, named after a particular turtle that
is very protected. Well this my kind of place, the jungle is exhuberant and
the beaches are almost isolated!!, by the way this place is between Puerto
Vallarta and Manzanillo.
Now how about the ruins of Yachilan? in Tlaxcala, where you will find some
mayan frescos that were recently discovered, they are magnificent.
But going back to the South of Mexico, there you will find Palenque, beautiful
pyramids in the middle of the jungle, and try to go to San Cristobal de las
Casas, Chamula territory, very interesting. Veracruz, Tabasco Olmec territory.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I could go on and on, Guanajuato, San Miguel de Allende which is the Santa Fe
of Mexico, Cozumel, Morelia (real Colonial and beautiful), Taxco, Cholula
(Impressive Church built upon perhaps the largest pyramid ever built).
Try also to do some homework, if you can get your hands on some issues of
"Mexico Desconocido/Mexico Unknown" magazine, you will find a lot of
nteresting information. National Geography has maps of Colonial Treasures as
well as Anthropological Monuments/Pyramids/Finds
And of course the VALLEY OF MEXICO, as people already mentioned;
Museo de Antropologia, Museo de Arte Moderno, Museo Tamayo, Museo del Templo
Mayor, Covento de San Indelfonso (Orozco Murals), Palacio Nacional ( Diego
Rivera Murals), Museo de Diego Rivera (Coyoacan), Museo Cuevas (Recently
Inaugurated), Zona Rosa is not the same, rather go to Polanco, for some
interesting and folkloric shoping go to "El Bazar de San Angel" is a must only
open on Saturdays, to be honest Mexico is immense, is in few words a very
cosmopolitan city, enjoy it
Saludos y buen viaje!!!
-Gabriel
--
================================================================================
Gabriel Villalobos Silicon Graphics
2023 N. Shoreline gab...@sgi.com
Mtn. View, Cal. 94039-7311 gabriel%re...@sgi.com
Enrique Cortes-Rello
>
> And of course the VALLEY OF MEXICO, as people already mentioned;
> Museo de Antropologia, Museo de Arte Moderno, Museo Tamayo, Museo del Templo
> Mayor, Covento de San Indelfonso (Orozco Murals), Palacio Nacional ( Diego
> Rivera Murals), Museo de Diego Rivera (Coyoacan), Museo Cuevas (Recently
> Inaugurated), Zona Rosa is not the same, rather go to Polanco, for some
> interesting and folkloric shoping go to "El Bazar de San Angel" is a must only
> open on Saturdays, to be honest Mexico is immense, is in few words a very
> cosmopolitan city, enjoy it
>
> Saludos y buen viaje!!!
>
> -Gabriel
>
(I am biased because I am a "Chilango" but ...)
Mexico City is a MUST-SEE place if you want to understand
the Mexican soul. I will suggest a couple of places "off-
the-beaten-track" that in my opinion summarize what Mexico
City has to offer:
(1) The "old barrios" of Southern Mexico City: Coyoacan,
San Angel and Tlalpan.The best day to go is a Saturday.
Go to the Coyoacan "zocalo" and
visit the Church. Then have an awsome ice cream at "Helados
Siberia". Then visit the house of Frida Khalo and Diego
Rivera. Now go to San Angel (by the Mercado). Visit the
"Bazar del Sabado" (very expensive high quality arts and
crafts - a MUST SEE but $$$$$$). Just sit down at "plaza San Jacinto"
and enjoy the trees. Also visit the museum of colonial art
(at the other side of Tlalpan Avenue) and say hi to some
scary mummies of nuns!. Lunch: Taco Inn (tacos al carbon and such)
(2) Downtown: start at the corner of Insurgentes and Avenida
Juarez. Visit the FONART for very nice folk art. Then: museums
galore! "Pinacoteca Virreynal" (for Colonial painting) and my
favorite (and not well known) "Museo Franz Meyer". Do not miss
the silver-crafts exhibit. "Palacio de Bellas Artes" for outstanding
mural art by the great 20th century mexican masters . Then walk
"Madero" street towards "el Zocalo" (the main plaza) and admire
the buildings (16th-17th-18th century treasures). "El Zocalo" is
amazing because is HUGE and OLD (this is not realy "off-the-beaten-track"
. There, visit the Cathedral and the Presidential
Palace (Diego Rivera stuff inside ... don't miss it). Also do
not miss "El Templo Mayor" (Aztec). Lunch: (mid-price) have lunch at the
top-roof of the "Hotel Majestic" (food is so so, the view is "majestic").
(cheap) have lunch at "Caldos Zenon" (!!)
(3) For more adventurous folk: visit "La Lagunilla" market on a
Sunday (you can find from junk to treasures in this "swap meet":
folk art, antiques, and all sorts of things).
Visit "Garibaldi Square" and listen to the Mariachis. DISCLAIMER:
these "attractions" are not in nice neighborhoods!!! (but they are
funky)
(4) Touristy things that must not be missed: "Museo de Antropologia
e Historia" (specially Maya, Azteca and Teotihuacan exhibits; but if
you have the time visit the not-well-known second floor for contemporary
indian culture). "Teotihuacan" (out of town and lots of tourists but
worth it)
OTHER STUFF:
(a) Mexico City is HUGE. Do not assume that places are close to
each other (except
in the downtown area). Public transportation is great and efficient
but very crowded. The metro (underground) is great BUT very crowded
specially duriing rush hour. Taxis are okay but YOU HAVE TO NEGOTIATE
THE FARE IN ADVANCE. Never ever take a taxi without knowing the fare
in advance.
(b) As in any huge metropolis: take precautions !. Do not wear
expensive jewlery. Do not carry lots of cash. Avoid ugly neighborhoods
at night.(in a word: DO NOT ACT AS A "RICH TOURIST")
(c) Yes, it is true! do not drink water from the tap. Try "tehuacan"
-brand mineral water.
(d) if you want to eat reliable (so so) and inexpensive mexican food in a clean
place, try any "El Porton" restaurant or "La Parrilla Suiza". Do not
expect culinary masterpieces. The masterpieces are in the "mercados".
seth.r.rosenthal
> In article <1991Sep11.2...@odin.corp.sgi.com>, gab...@sgi.com (Gabriel Villalobos) writes:
> >
> > And of course the VALLEY OF MEXICO, as people already mentioned;
> > Museo de Antropologia, Museo de Arte Moderno, Museo Tamayo, Museo del Templo
> > Mayor, Covento de San Indelfonso (Orozco Murals), Palacio Nacional ( Diego
> > Rivera Murals), Museo de Diego Rivera (Coyoacan), Museo Cuevas (Recently
> > Inaugurated), Zona Rosa is not the same, rather go to Polanco, for some
> > interesting and folkloric shoping go to "El Bazar de San Angel" is a must only
> > open on Saturdays, to be honest Mexico is immense, is in few words a very
> > cosmopolitan city, enjoy it
> >
> > Saludos y buen viaje!!!
> >
> > -Gabriel
> >
>
>
> (I am biased because I am a "Chilango" but ...)
>
> Mexico City is a MUST-SEE place if you want to understand
> the Mexican soul. I will suggest a couple of places "off-
> the-beaten-track" that in my opinion summarize what Mexico
> City has to offer:
>
I used to live in Mexico City, it is a curious mix of Mexico
and Europe. Lots of Spaniards from Franco's Spain who came
in the Thirties keep a kind of insular community within
Mexico City.
> (1) The "old barrios" of Southern Mexico City: Coyoacan,
> San Angel and Tlalpan.The best day to go is a Saturday.
A must do.
> Go to the Coyoacan "zocalo" and
> visit the Church. Then have an awsome ice cream at "Helados
> Siberia". Then visit the house of Frida Khalo and Diego
> Rivera. Now go to San Angel (by the Mercado). Visit the
> "Bazar del Sabado" (very expensive high quality arts and
> crafts - a MUST SEE but $$$$$$). Just sit down at "plaza San Jacinto"
> and enjoy the trees. Also visit the museum of colonial art
> (at the other side of Tlalpan Avenue) and say hi to some
> scary mummies of nuns!. Lunch: Taco Inn (tacos al carbon and such)
>
>
> (2) Downtown: start at the corner of Insurgentes and Avenida
> Juarez. Visit the FONART for very nice folk art. Then: museums
> galore! "Pinacoteca Virreynal" (for Colonial painting) and my
> favorite (and not well known) "Museo Franz Meyer". Do not miss
> the silver-crafts exhibit. "Palacio de Bellas Artes" for outstanding
> mural art by the great 20th century mexican masters . Then walk
> "Madero" street towards "el Zocalo" (the main plaza) and admire
> the buildings (16th-17th-18th century treasures). "El Zocalo" is
> amazing because is HUGE and OLD (this is not realy "off-the-beaten-track"
> . There, visit the Cathedral and the Presidential
> Palace (Diego Rivera stuff inside ... don't miss it). Also do
> not miss "El Templo Mayor" (Aztec). Lunch: (mid-price) have lunch at the
> top-roof of the "Hotel Majestic" (food is so so, the view is "majestic").
> (cheap) have lunch at "Caldos Zenon" (!!)
>
Check out the University, and also the subway station with the
Pyramid on one wall (forget which station it was).
> (3) For more adventurous folk: visit "La Lagunilla" market on a
> Sunday (you can find from junk to treasures in this "swap meet":
> folk art, antiques, and all sorts of things).
> Visit "Garibaldi Square" and listen to the Mariachis. DISCLAIMER:
> these "attractions" are not in nice neighborhoods!!! (but they are
> funky)
>
Garibaldi is great fun. Go at night (take a cab) and the night-clubs
surrounding the square are lots of fun as well.
> (4) Touristy things that must not be missed: "Museo de Antropologia
> e Historia" (specially Maya, Azteca and Teotihuacan exhibits; but if
> you have the time visit the not-well-known second floor for contemporary
> indian culture). "Teotihuacan" (out of town and lots of tourists but
> worth it)
>
> OTHER STUFF:
>
> (a) Mexico City is HUGE. Do not assume that places are close to
> each other (except
> in the downtown area). Public transportation is great and efficient
> but very crowded. The metro (underground) is great BUT very crowded
> specially duriing rush hour. Taxis are okay but YOU HAVE TO NEGOTIATE
> THE FARE IN ADVANCE. Never ever take a taxi without knowing the fare
> in advance.
>
If you stay on major Avenues (Reforma, Insurgentes, Morelos, etc.) you
can take the Peseros. They are a fixed fee, fill up with as many
as they can fit and run up and down a given major thouroughfare.
I hope they are still there. If you travel in the country-side
take first class buses, not second class ones. They pay first class
drivers by the day, second class drivers by the trip! You don't want
to go through those mountain passes if the driver is trying to squeeze in
an extra run!
> (b) As in any huge metropolis: take precautions !. Do not wear
> expensive jewlery. Do not carry lots of cash. Avoid ugly neighborhoods
> at night.(in a word: DO NOT ACT AS A "RICH TOURIST")
>
Some guy tried to shine my suede shoes. No kidding, while I was
standing waiting for traffic to clear on Reforma. I have one
brown suede shoe, and one with a huge black stain that never came
out. (I keep it to show when people don't believe it happened!)
I haven't seen mention of Chapultapec Park and the Castillo.
You may recognize the views from old I Spy episodes that seem
always to be shot there and in Acapulco. Also, see if you can
get an excursion to one of the Volcanoes. I can't spell the
names, but Popocatepetl (sp?) and Izcalli (sp?) have wonderful
views on the way up, real pretty towns at the snow lines, and
are cloud covered at the top.
I would strongly recommend Cuernavaca. It is really pretty, although
the people are not as "mexican" as in other cities (its a pretty
heavy German retirement spot it seems). It is hard to see the
city until you are in it, is so filled with lush verdant greenery
and flowers. The Palacio de Cortes is outstanding.
SHOPPING:
Jewelry is much cheaper in Taxco than in the D.F. Also it is a beautiful
city. On the way stop at Las Momias (I recall that being on the way).
Onyx in Puebla, also interesting for the beautiful tiled
churches. Opals in Queretaro. Personal recommendations for
a chess set, if you must get Onyx, ok, but find one in bull's
horn. They are indestructable and quite beautiful.
Furniture in a town called Tenancingo south of the Valle de Toluca.
Also worth exploring is the pyramid in Tenango del Valle. It is
on top of a cliff at least 150 feet above the valley floor. Spectacular
view! Further into the foothills of the continental divide near
Tenango is a small town with a Pyramid with the only excavated
hot bath I have ever seen. Sorry, I can't remember the town's name,
but as one passes Tenango the "Zona Archeologica" signs used to
lead to it.
Seth Rosenthal
Ricardo J Salvador
>Pacifico, is a 2,3 days visit, you will find out why, and then after San Jose
>down hill to the beach, first you will hit Puerto Angel, but the real beach is
>Xipolite,(playa de los muertos), nudist beach, natural beauty, and then from
>Puerto Angel go further South to the magic town of Huatulco, the most beautiful
>small bays/beaches that can be access only by 'lancha'/boat, very non-touristic
>by the way.
Well it used to be that way. No more. There is huge tourist development
there now. Not only can you get there driving now, but AeroMexico has a
special flight to Huatulco daily. The hotels that have gone up are the
standard Las Vegas-Decadent in style and you can pay $100 and more per night
to be served hand and food by poor Oaxacans who themselves cannot now afford
to visit one of the beautiful places of their own state that used to be all
theirs.
>Now how about the ruins of Yachilan? in Tlaxcala, where you will find some
^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
Yaxchilan ????????, you mean Chiapas, no?
>mayan frescos that were recently discovered, they are magnificent.
If you're going to go that far out of your way (several hours drive on
gravel roads into the Chiapas tropical forest), you should attempt to
visit Bonampak, Altar de los Sacrificios, and the Maya Lacando'n village
of Lacanja' Chan Sayab.
>Saludos y buen viaje!!!
Ditto.
-Ricardo
victor.m.mendoza-grado
>told a group of friends of mine that I thought that Tijuana wasn't
>the "real" mexico, but then one of my friends (who was from TJ) said
>"great, then I must not be a real mexican".
I don't see a problem there as one can find "real" mexicans everywhere, :-)
witness L. A. In fact Tijuana has more things in common with L. A.
than with many other cities south of the border. An interesting
"factoid" I learned the last time I was there, it's that 70% of
its inhabitants are originally from somewhere else.
But TJ is a great place to find entertainment, you have to travel
many, many miles south in order to find all the entertainment
that you can find in one place in TJ: the big bullring, the dog track,
the big baseball stadium, etc. Also, if you want culture, at least
you'll be able to find it inside a museum; they were building one
projected to be second only to the National Museum in Mexico City.
Plus, not many places have the distinction of being home of a
famous salad such as the Cesar Salad. :-)
>pd La manera "real" de llegar al DF es en camion, no en avion!! :-)
For a better time try hitchhiking or the freight trains. :-)
Victor
--
o| Victor M. Mendoza_Grado _______________________ AT&T Bell Laboratories |o
| mendoz...@att.com ...!att!iexist!victor |
o| "[S]ome of the happiest days of my youth were those spent in drifting |o
| across the plateaus of Chihuahua" -- James A. Michener |
Ricardo J Salvador
> But TJ is a great place to find entertainment, you have to travel
> many, many miles south in order to find all the entertainment
> that you can find in one place in TJ: the big bullring, the dog track,
> the big baseball stadium, etc. Also, if you want culture, at least
> you'll be able to find it inside a museum; they were building one
> projected to be second only to the National Museum in Mexico City.
I forget the name of the place now, but for a while there was a big project
near Tijuana to create a Disneyland style theme park that would serve to
present "the real Mexico" to folks who could only visit the border. There
were going to be recreations of indigenous, colonial and modern environs
(for instance, a full-size replica of Teotihuacan's Pyramid of the Sun,
a colonial cathedral, etc.) replete with food, crafts and textiles from
the various regions of the country. Has anyone heard how this is going?
Y la gente? Digo yo. Y el dineral? Para quien sera'? Digo yo.
Hasta moztla,
Ricardo
Alejandro Quiroz
>>Now how about the ruins of Yachilan? in Tlaxcala, where you will find some
^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
> Yaxchilan ????????, you mean Chiapas, no?
>>mayan frescos that were recently discovered, they are magnificent.
This place recently discovered is Cacaxtla and is, in fact, in
Tlaxcala. The frescos are really impresive. They are in several
chambers of a huge ceremonial center. I can't tell you exactly
how to get to Cacaxtla. I just remember that a group of friends and
I were coming back from Puebla to Mexico City on the "carretera
libre" (non-toll highway) and we saw a sign to Cacaxtla. We had
some time free and decided to go.
I do not think the frescos are Mayan. I recall something in the
effect of having "Olmec influence".
> If you're going to go that far out of your way (several hours drive on
> gravel roads into the Chiapas tropical forest), you should attempt to
> visit Bonampak, Altar de los Sacrificios, and the Maya Lacando'n village
> of Lacanja' Chan Sayab.
Not from personal experience, but friends of mine recommend
*against* driving to Bonampak. It seems that the roads are
definitely bad and the trek is looooooooooooong. A better choice
seems to be to fly, that is, if you are willing to risk your life
in a little propeller plane.
> >Saludos y buen viaje!!!
> Ditto.
> -Ricardo
Alejandro..
Ricardo J Salvador
>>>Now how about the ruins of Yachilan? in Tlaxcala, where you will find some
> ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
>> Yaxchilan ????????, you mean Chiapas, no?
>
>>>mayan frescos that were recently discovered, they are magnificent.
>
> This place recently discovered is Cacaxtla and is, in fact, in
Oh, well this is another matter altogether then. I just visited Cacaxtla
myself a few weeks ago. First of all, the ruins in question were not
recently "discovered," but rather recently excavated. The site is located
on a hilltop that overlooks the valley of Puebla. The pyramid of Cholula
is visible in the near distance. In addition, there is another pyramidal
structure clearly visible on a neighboring hill which is yet to be
excavated. I spoke with the watchman at the site who told me that this
pyramid was the main adoratory of the complex and that it is the next item
on the excavation list of the national museum of anthropology personnel who
are supervising the dig. The site is characterized by sculptures, bas
relief and murals of anthropomorphic figures. To protect the maze of
chambers and exposed artwork a huge canopy of metalworks has been erected
over the hilltop, and you can see this from a distance and use it as a
"beacon" as you approach the site. When we were there they were busy
completing an entrance pavillion and a walk to lead from parking to the
site. The "man-eagle" that is one of the more spectacular finds at the
site has been reproduced on the facade of this pavillion (where tickets
and archaeological flyers can be purchased.) The watchman and the
folks who live on the hillside are Mexican and all express a great deal
of pride because of their association with this site. They compare it
to the major sites of Teotihuacan and Palenque and are particularly
pleased that many foreign tourists are descending on them to appreciate
the depth and grandeur of their Mexican past (of course, when these
folks say Mexicano they mean something entirely different from what is
usually meant ;). To me personally it was very satisfying to see this
pride. BTW, I make out Cacaxtla(n) to mean ~ "place of carriers."
> Tlaxcala. The frescos are really impresive. They are in several
> chambers of a huge ceremonial center. I can't tell you exactly
> how to get to Cacaxtla. I just remember that a group of friends and
> I were coming back from Puebla to Mexico City on the "carretera
> libre" (non-toll highway) and we saw a sign to Cacaxtla. We had
> some time free and decided to go.
If you approach on the freeway heading from Mexico D.F. to Puebla you may
want to get off at the Texmelucan toll park and get on the two lane
road that heads SE to Santa Maria Nativitas and Zacatelco. You'll see
signs along the way directing you to Cacaxtla. If you are approaching
from Puebla, get off at the exit following the HYLSA industrial complex
exit. Head NE for just a couple of miles or so until you get to the
intersection of the Nativitas road, then turn right and follow the signs.
> I do not think the frescos are Mayan. I recall something in the
> effect of having "Olmec influence".
Right, they are not Mayan. This is all clearly Mexican stuff. _Everything_
in Mexican archaeology has "Olmec influence." ;)
>> If you're going to go that far out of your way (several hours drive on
>> gravel roads into the Chiapas tropical forest), you should attempt to
>> visit Bonampak, Altar de los Sacrificios, and the Maya Lacando'n village
>> of Lacanja' Chan Sayab.
>
> Not from personal experience, but friends of mine recommend
> *against* driving to Bonampak. It seems that the roads are
> definitely bad and the trek is looooooooooooong. A better choice
> seems to be to fly, that is, if you are willing to risk your life
> in a little propeller plane.
Yes, as I mentioned it is a gravel road that is saturated with pot holes.
I've travelled it often with Maya Lacando'n friends, and I've also flown
there. The drive (in a VW Safari ;) can take from 4 to 6 hours depending
on whether you're going in the rainy or the less-rainy season :). You
start out from Tenosique (Tanatsic = Weaver's Palace) in Tabasco (Tabskoob)
and head SE. The road will take you all the way to Bonampak IF it is
passable at all. The other alternative is to fly from San Cristobal Las
Casas to Lacanja' Chan Sayab and then rough it to Bonampak. Yes, it is
true that all these places are, mercifully, still relatively inaccessible.
Note that I said that as long as a person were "going out of the way" to
get to Yaxchila'n, when we thought that was the site we were talking about.
Hasta moztla,
-Ricardo
Robert Morelos
Try going to the states of Michoacan, Jalisco and Nayarit....
Visit the Piramides de Teotihuacan
Go to Tula, Hidalgo...
Robert Morelos-Zaragiza
P.S. VIVA MEXICO !!!!!!!!
>
>Marco
Dario Alcocer
Estaras hablando del mentado <<Pueblo Amigo>>? Bueno, me parece que
han terminado con una mayor parte, tienen una discoteca, puestos de
"artesanias", y otras cosas mas. Parece que tambien he visto por
Plaza Rio que tienen un lugar parecido. Haber si me acuerdo de reportarles
que veo despues de mi proximo viaje a 'Tijuanita'.
p.d. Me acabo de cambiar a San Franciso, de San Diego, CA, pero
soy de Tijuana...
--
Dario Alcocer | Internet: alc...@parc.xerox.com
Xerox Corporation | tel: +1 415 494-4851
Ricardo J Salvador
>>I forget the name of the place now, but for a while there was a big project
>>near Tijuana to create a Disneyland style theme park that would serve to
>>......
>Estaras hablando del mentado <<Pueblo Amigo>>? Bueno, me parece que
>han terminado con una mayor parte, tienen una discoteca, puestos de
>"artesanias", y otras cosas mas. Parece que tambien he visto por
>Plaza Rio que tienen un lugar parecido. Haber si me acuerdo de reportarles
>que veo despues de mi proximo viaje a 'Tijuanita'.
Puede ser. El problema es que no recuerdo el nombre del proyecto. Me
imagino que no podra'n haber muchas ideas y proyectos semejantes en Tijuana,
?no?
Lo vi' descrito como hecho en un anuncio de Turismo en alguna revista de
aerolinea, creo que en la de American Airlines, hace como un mes.
Hasta moztla,
-Ricardo
Alejandro Quiroz
> In article <1991Sep12.2...@cbnewse.cb.att.com> v...@cbnewse.cb.att.com (victor.m.mendoza-grado) writes:
> > But TJ is a great place to find entertainment, you have to travel
> > many, many miles south in order to find all the entertainment
> > that you can find in one place in TJ: the big bullring, the dog track,
> > the big baseball stadium, etc. Also, if you want culture, at least
> > you'll be able to find it inside a museum; they were building one
> > projected to be second only to the National Museum in Mexico City.
> I forget the name of the place now, but for a while there was a big project
> near Tijuana to create a Disneyland style theme park that would serve to
> present "the real Mexico" to folks who could only visit the border. There
> were going to be recreations of indigenous, colonial and modern environs
> (for instance, a full-size replica of Teotihuacan's Pyramid of the Sun,
> a colonial cathedral, etc.) replete with food, crafts and textiles from
> the various regions of the country. Has anyone heard how this is going?
Never heard of this, but I know that this would be the most unlike
"real Mexico" as you could get. A full-size REPLICA of Teotihuacan's
Pyramid of the Sun? Give me a break...!
> Y la gente? Digo yo. Y el dineral? Para quien sera'? Digo yo.
> Hasta moztla,
> Ricardo
> ----------
Alejandro..
Gabriel Villalobos
>In article <1991Sep11.2...@odin.corp.sgi.com> gab...@sgi.com (Gabriel Villalobos) writes:
>
>>Pacifico, is a 2,3 days visit, you will find out why, and then after San Jose
>>down hill to the beach, first you will hit Puerto Angel, but the real beach is
>>Xipolite,(playa de los muertos), nudist beach, natural beauty, and then from
>>Puerto Angel go further South to the magic town of Huatulco, the most beautiful
>>small bays/beaches that can be access only by 'lancha'/boat, very non-touristic
>>by the way.
>
>Well it used to be that way. No more. There is huge tourist development
>there now. Not only can you get there driving now, but AeroMexico has a
>special flight to Huatulco daily. The hotels that have gone up are the
>standard Las Vegas-Decadent in style and you can pay $100 and more per night
>to be served hand and food by poor Oaxacans who themselves cannot now afford
>to visit one of the beautiful places of their own state that used to be all
>theirs.
I disagree, it is sad that other countries have discovered the potential
of getting rich by putting up some hotels in our pacific coast, but last time
I was in Huatulco there was only i major Hotel "The Sheraton" and the other
was a resort "Club Med" which as you know their clients like to stay in their
own safe heaven and don't venture too much into the real country.
And yes there is some modest hotels around it but nothing like Vegas-Decadent.
I also suggested Careyes, that by the way has a hotel owned by an Italian,
how does this happen that most of the the beautiful beaches and not well
known are in hands of foreigners?
It is also dangerous to buy as a mexican since it has happened that at any
time the Mexican Goevernment can confiscate the land and take away from you
of course they will pay you a misery for it! (I am refering to land by the
beach).
So why should I feel guilty when I see my own people and this happened to me
over in Puerto Angel, I was with an american girlfriend and few natives wanted
to enjoy the beach but when they saw us they kind of shine away, believe me
I felt bad!, but is it my fault or the Governement that is not using the
revenues to improve the quality of life for such natives?
>
>>Now how about the ruins of Yachilan? in Tlaxcala, where you will find some
> ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
> Yaxchilan ????????, you mean Chiapas, no?
No I mean Tlaxcala, that is why they are so interesting!!
>
>>mayan frescos that were recently discovered, they are magnificent.
>
>If you're going to go that far out of your way (several hours drive on
>gravel roads into the Chiapas tropical forest), you should attempt to
>visit Bonampak, Altar de los Sacrificios, and the Maya Lacando'n village
>of Lacanja' Chan Sayab.
>
>>Saludos y buen viaje!!!
>
>Ditto.
>
>-Ricardo
Saludos
Alex Lopez-Ortiz
> In article <1991Sep12.1...@news.iastate.edu> rjsa...@iastate.edu (Ricardo J Salvador) writes:
> >In article <1991Sep11.2...@odin.corp.sgi.com> gab...@sgi.com (Gabriel Villalobos) writes:
> >
> >>Pacifico, is a 2,3 days visit, you will find out why, and then after San Jose
> >>down hill to the beach, first you will hit Puerto Angel, but the real beach is
> >>Xipolite,(playa de los muertos), nudist beach, natural beauty, and then from
> >>Puerto Angel go further South to the magic town of Huatulco, the most beautiful
> >>small bays/beaches that can be access only by 'lancha'/boat, very non-touristic
> >>by the way.
> >
> >Well it used to be that way. No more. There is huge tourist development
> >there now. Not only can you get there driving now, but AeroMexico has a
> >special flight to Huatulco daily. The hotels that have gone up are the
> >standard Las Vegas-Decadent in style and you can pay $100 and more per night
> >to be served hand and food by poor Oaxacans who themselves cannot now afford
> >to visit one of the beautiful places of their own state that used to be all
> >theirs.
>
Certainly na exageration by R. Salvador, so far there's only one place
in Mexico where you can find hotels LasVegas decadent style: TIJUANA.
ABout Huatulco, the developmnet plan calls for some of the bays to never
be open for cars and only to be accesible by boat.
WIsen up! Huatulco provides jobs for about 100,000 peasants. THey certainly
do better nowadays. Amog the many options that Mexico has to become
quickly developed is through Tourism (services in general).
Alex
Alejandro Quiroz
Copia de un mensaje que Eduardo Alessio (ale...@hudson.cs.columbia.edu)
me mando con respecto a Cacaxtla.
Alejandro..
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sobre los comentarios de Cacaxtla:
La forma de llegar es muy sencilla, ya sea que uno venga de Puebla
o del D.F., por la carretera de cuota Mexico-Puebla, se sale uno un la
salida a San Martin Texmelucan, donde ademas si mal no recuerdo hay una
caseta de cobro. Pasa uno saan Martin y toma en direccion de la ciudad
de Tlaxcala/Apizaco. Como 15 min. antes de Tlaxcala doblar a la derecha,
y si uno tiene buen ojo, desde ahi se ve a lo lejos el Domo que cubre las
ruinas y frescos, da la idea como de una nave industrial.
La cultura que habito dicha zona arqueologica era Olmeca-Xicalantla.
Los frescos son imponentes, tienen un grado de conservacion excelente.
Muy recomendable la visita, pero si ya estan por ahi, yo recomiendo
pasar un par de dias a la ciudad de Tlaxcala, visitar la iglesia de San Javier
y el museo adjunto, la plaza de toros, la capilla al aire libre (estos cuatro
lugares uno junto del otro), el pozito, los edificios aledanos a la plaza
principal, algunos otros recobecos, pero para culminar, el santuario de
Ocotlan, joya de la arquitectura Barroca Mexicana.....
En fin, por ahi hay lugares muy padres, suerte.
Eduardo.
Carlos Saul Menem
> "real Mexico" as you could get. A full-size REPLICA of Teotihuacan's
> Pyramid of the Sun? Give me a break...!
>
>> Y la gente? Digo yo. Y el dineral? Para quien sera'? Digo yo.
>
Lo que tenemos en Tijuana es algo que se llama MEXITLAN que
queda unos 5 minutos caminando de la frontera. Yo he visto
comerciales por la tele pero nunca he pasado a verlo. Hace poco
hable con alguien de la oficina del tursimo de TJ aqui en San Diego
y ellos lo describen como un "parque de diversion" pero no hay
rollercoaster ni nada asi. Solamente hay miniaturas de las
piramides , catedrales, etc, y "pueblitos" con nativos mostrando las
cosas de sus areas de origen. Tambien hay restaurantes y grupos
musicales por todos lados. A mi me parece algo para el gringo que
no quiere entrar y ver el interior de mexico por si mismo.
Y ?cuanto sale? 10 baros!!!!!!!! (bueno U$ 9.95) Estan
locos! Bueno todos que quieren mas informacion puede llamar a la
oficina de turismo en TJ a 011-52 66 38 41 01.
Bueno asi que no es el Pueblo Amigo, ni nada asi. Por los
que conocen mas o menos por alli, van por los taxis, llendo a la
plaza nueva (a la derecha como si estuvieran llendo a Revolucion), y
justo alli, van a ver unas pin~atas grandes, y boom ya estan.
chaucito
flaco
Ricardo J Salvador
> Lo que tenemos en Tijuana es algo que se llama MEXITLAN que
>queda unos 5 minutos caminando de la frontera. Yo he visto
>comerciales por la tele pero nunca he pasado a verlo. Hace poco
>hable con alguien de la oficina del tursimo de TJ aqui en San Diego
>y ellos lo describen como un "parque de diversion" pero no hay
>rollercoaster ni nada asi. Solamente hay miniaturas de las
>piramides , catedrales, etc, y "pueblitos" con nativos mostrando las
>cosas de sus areas de origen. Tambien hay restaurantes y grupos
>musicales por todos lados. A mi me parece algo para el gringo que
>no quiere entrar y ver el interior de mexico por si mismo.
Si este es el lugar que vi' anunciado. El ver el nombre me lo recordo'.
-Ricardo
Ricardo J Salvador
>> >there now. Not only can you get there driving now, but AeroMexico has a
>> >special flight to Huatulco daily. The hotels that have gone up are the
>> >standard Las Vegas-Decadent in style and you can pay $100 and more per night
>> >to be served hand and food by poor Oaxacans who themselves cannot now afford
>> >to visit one of the beautiful places of their own state that used to be all
>> >theirs.
>Certainly na exageration by R. Salvador, so far there's only one place
>in Mexico where you can find hotels LasVegas decadent style: TIJUANA.
>WIsen up! Huatulco provides jobs for about 100,000 peasants. THey certainly
>do better nowadays. Amog the many options that Mexico has to become
>quickly developed is through Tourism (services in general).
Well OK, I'm always ready to be wisened ;).
I think it might be productive to take this up. I was in Huatulco in
August (in the company of a few family members) and those were the impressions
I gathered in a few brief hours there. It is a fact that neither I nor the
average Mexican could afford the hotel we visited. It is also a fact that
in all likelyhood the same subset of people would probably not be welcomed
there. I have stood at a hotel desk with a reservation and have been told
that there is no longer a room available (after, I am sure, seeing what I
look like), while at the same time gringos have walked in without reservations,
happily inquired (in English) if there might be a room, and have been
treated with a solicitude and deference that most Mexicans will never know
in their own country (the hotel, it gives me pleasure to broadcast all over
the world, was the Hotel Veracruz in Oaxaca City -the heart of Indian Country!)
At any rate, I think that what we have here is not an exaggeration, but
clearly a difference in world views. To you this Cancun-style development
represents improvement. To me employment in subservient and demeaning jobs
at marginal wages, for the pleasure of foreign tourists and the profit of
capitalists, is not only beneath the dignity of any self-respecting human
being, but in addition serves only to reinforce the pattern of exploitation
and racial hierarchy that is at the heart of the rot that is contemporary
Mexican society. I see Huatulco and my blood curls. You see Huatulco
(you _have_ seen it, haven't you?) and you see fluffy clouds and crimson
sunsets. Let's discuss this.
-Ricardo
Gabriel Villalobos
Huatulco is certainly intended to be one of the best designed and planned
resorts in the Mexican Riviera, hopefully what happened to Acapulco won't
here, where most of the drainage ended up in the ocean polluting the water and
in turn the seafood. I believe that Huatulco has a system where most of the
drainage is treated and purified. As for the plan to never open the bays to
traffic, I am affraid the access by car to such bays will be inevitable.
Perhaps this is the time to enjoy it, before it turns into a Vegas-Decadent
place as Ricardo says. I can see his concern, and that is that I am not sure
that tourism is really helping the community, it is providing jobs but is it
improving the quality of life?, are the revenues from these resorts providing
schools?, education?, benefits?, etc,etc or is it just a "valvula de escape"?
Specially when a 90% of the ownership is foreign. There is only few Mexican
owners of major Hotels, one of them is Maria Vargas Dulche, who wrote those
comic strips "Memin Penguin" and "Lagrimas y Risas", she owns the Krystal
chain of hotels that keeps growing, but they are few the rest is british,
japanese, american. It is kind of scary!!
There is still a lot of un-exploited beautiful areas in Mexico, one of them,
where you hardly see any tourists, only natives, is in the foothills of the
Tuxtla volcanos by "Playa Escondida", Veracruz. There is no hotels by the way,
so be prepared with some camping gear, the place is out of this world!!!
-Saludos
Ricardo J Salvador
>me mando con respecto a Cacaxtla.
> Sobre los comentarios de Cacaxtla:
>
> La forma de llegar es muy sencilla, ya sea que uno venga de Puebla
>o del D.F., por la carretera de cuota Mexico-Puebla, se sale uno un la
>salida a San Martin Texmelucan, donde ademas si mal no recuerdo hay una
>caseta de cobro. Pasa uno saan Martin y toma en direccion de la ciudad
>de Tlaxcala/Apizaco. Como 15 min. antes de Tlaxcala doblar a la derecha,
>y si uno tiene buen ojo, desde ahi se ve a lo lejos el Domo que cubre las
>ruinas y frescos, da la idea como de una nave industrial.
>
> La cultura que habito dicha zona arqueologica era Olmeca-Xicalantla.
>
Interesante. Cuando visite' la zona el pabello'n turi'stica no conteni'a
ninguna informacio'n, y como la excavacio'n es reciente au'n no hay gran
cantidad de informacio'n a nivel popular acerca del fondo histo'rica de
las ruinas. Sin embargo (sin datos, noma's valiendome por lo que intuyo
al respecto), si las ruinas son netamente Olmecas estari'amos hablando
de una antiguedad de mas de 2000 a~os, cosa que seri'a algo difi'cil de
creer tanto por su estado de conservacio'n, sino que tambie'n por el
estilo arquitecto'nico y monumental de las ruinas. Aparte, el tipo de
arte lo asocio mucho con los estilos mexicas de los siglos mucho mas
recientes. Lo mas probable sera' tal vez que se le haya dado tal nombre a
la cultura por
1) desconocida
2) exhibir fuertes razgos de motivos, temas y dema's se~as Olmecas sin
significar que los habitantes mismos hayan sido Olmecas
Pero en fin, esto es algo que seguramente se sabe a ciencia cierta por
alguien, noma's es cuestio'n de indentificar QUIEN para que quedemos
claros y mejor educados al respecto todos. Conoce alguien por ahi' a
alguien quien tenga asociacio'n con el INAH?
Muchas gracias por sus aportaciones y comentarios tanto a Alejandro como
a Eduardo.
-Ricardo
Erich Hentschel
.
.
.
|
|> At any rate, I think that what we have here is not an exaggeration, but
|> clearly a difference in world views. To you this Cancun-style development
|> represents improvement. To me employment in subservient and demeaning jobs
|> at marginal wages, for the pleasure of foreign tourists and the profit of
|> capitalists, is not only beneath the dignity of any self-respecting human
|> being, but in addition serves only to reinforce the pattern of exploitation
|> and racial hierarchy that is at the heart of the rot that is contemporary
|> Mexican society. I see Huatulco and my blood curls. You see Huatulco
|> (you _have_ seen it, haven't you?) and you see fluffy clouds and crimson
|> sunsets. Let's discuss this.
|>
|> -Ricardo
I believe that Ricardo has a valid point. Who is anyone to decide
what represents improvement? This is a big issue.
I personally feel very upset when you go into the areas of
Acapulco that are not the Turist are. Some people there are
living in very sad conditions.
If the developers at these places would also include schools
and health facilities, among other things, then I might
start considering an improvement.
Erich.
Alex Lopez-Ortiz
>
> Well OK, I'm always ready to be wisened ;).
>
> I think it might be productive to take this up. I was in Huatulco in
> August (in the company of a few family members) and those were the impressions
> I gathered in a few brief hours there. It is a fact that neither I nor the
> average Mexican could afford the hotel we visited.
Well, just follow your reasoning thread upto here:
Token : "Poor people cannot afford expensive resorts"
Conclusion : "expensive resorts are a BAD thing"
> .... It is also a fact that
> in all likelyhood the same subset of people would probably not be welcomed
> there. I have stood at a hotel desk with a reservation and have been told
> that there is no longer a room available (after, I am sure, seeing what I
> look like),
Token : "Some people discriminate against mexicans in hotels"
Conclusion : "Touristic development is not good for the country".
> At any rate, I think that what we have here is not an exaggeration, but
> clearly a difference in world views. To you this Cancun-style development
> represents improvement. To me employment in subservient and demeaning jobs
> at marginal wages,
Marginal wages that happen to be (in the average) three times the minimum
wage. Demeaning jobs? Sweeping floors and serving food are not demeaning jobs.
I'm surprised that Ricardo, who seems to be a sensitive person for the unfavoured
people, felt into this bourgeois-class attitude of calling honest jobs that
involve physical labor "demeaning".
.......for the pleasure of foreign tourists and the profit of
> capitalists, is not only beneath the dignity of any self-respecting human
> being,
Why producing pleasure in other human beings is degrading per se?
Then, is an actor (artist) degrading him/herself by performing daily a play for
those who can afford it?
> but in addition serves only to reinforce the pattern of exploitation
> and racial hierarchy that is at the heart of the root that is contemporary
> Mexican society.
More than a racial hierarchy, I would prefer to call it an "economical"
hierarchy: You've got dollars? then you're welcome, you don't? then clear
out "indio mugriento".
> I see Huatulco and my blood curls. You see Huatulco
> (you _have_ seen it, haven't you?)
I don't know what this has to do with the discussion, but yes I've
been to Huatulco.
NOTE : For those who haven't been I strongly recommend reading
"Entrecruzamientos" (Three Volumes), by Leonardo DaJandra,
published by Joaquin Mortiz.
> and you see fluffy clouds and crimson sunsets.
Sparkling gold sand, tranquil seas, and ocasionally a giant turtle or
a whale....
Let's discuss this ...
Alex
Ernesto Alvarado
>In article <1991Sep19....@news.iastate.edu>, rjsa...@iastate.edu (Ricardo J Salvador) writes:
>>
>> I gathered in a few brief hours there. It is a fact that neither I nor the
>> average Mexican could afford the hotel we visited.
>
>Well, just follow your reasoning thread upto here:
>
>Token : "Poor people cannot afford expensive resorts"
>Conclusion : "expensive resorts are a BAD thing"
>
>Token : "Some people discriminate against mexicans in hotels"
>Conclusion : "Touristic development is not good for the country".
Esta es la logica mas pobre que he visto ultimamente, (no se trata
de logica matematica en la que Alex debe ser muy bueno). El turismo
no es precisamente el camino para llegar a ser un pais desarrollado
(que es la bandera del gobierno y hay gente que se la cree). Las
situaciones que menciona Ricardo pasan en Mexico y cualquier otro
pais que depende del turismo extranjero. Ademas de ser capital muy
volatil. Aunque es riesgoso el trueque, en lo personal preferiria
ver una maquiladora en un lugar en vez de un hotel. La primera genera
a mediano plazo la necesidad de personal mas entrenado y educado que
los "houskeepers" y barrenderos.
>
>
>Marginal wages that happen to be (in the average) three times the minimum
>wage. Demeaning jobs? Sweeping floors and serving food are not demeaning jobs.
>I'm surprised that Ricardo, who seems to be a sensitive person for the unfavoured
Pues de donde? Si te refieres al salario del personal administrativo puede
que tengas razon, porque todo el demas personal no anda muy lejos del salario
minimo (solo que les hayan aumentado de improviso porque eso es lo que
ganaban la mayor parte de los trabajadores manuales el an~o pasado que
estuve una en el soleado Mazatlan), o solo que te refieras a lo que ganan
aqui en los EUA, que tampoco es mucho arriba del mimimo, al menos
eso es en Seattle (segun me cuentan mis cuates janitors, nadie dura mas de
6 meses en el trabajo, segun ellos es de los mas duros y explotados)
>Why producing pleasure in other human beings is degrading per se?
>
>Then, is an actor (artist) degrading him/herself by performing daily a play for
>those who can afford it?
Depende de que estes hablando, expresion artistica de acuerdo, hasta eso
hay artistas que se niegan a actuar enfrente de publicos que en chilangolandia
se les llamaria "bola de nacos"
>> but in addition serves only to reinforce the pattern of exploitation
>> and racial hierarchy that is at the heart of the root that is contemporary
>> Mexican society.
>
>More than a racial hierarchy, I would prefer to call it an "economical"
>hierarchy: You've got dollars? then you're welcome, you don't? then clear
>out "indio mugriento".
dolares, dolares ?donde eschuche esto? pense que en Mexico todavia
circulaba el peso.
>> I see Huatulco and my blood curls. You see Huatulco
>
>I don't know what this has to do with the discussion, but yes I've
>been to Huatulco.
Yo tambien, en los 70's
Ernesto
Ricardo J Salvador
>> I think it might be productive to take this up. I was in Huatulco in
>> August (in the company of a few family members) and those were the impressions
>> I gathered in a few brief hours there. It is a fact that neither I nor the
>> average Mexican could afford the hotel we visited.
>Well, just follow your reasoning thread upto here:
>
>Token : "Poor people cannot afford expensive resorts"
>
>Conclusion : "expensive resorts are a BAD thing"
No, that is not the complete story. If Indians/poor people (in Oaxaca
they are one and the same) had the money, they would still not be welcome
at these resort areas (as guests), they are welcome as menial laborers
and as part of the local scenery (at a safe distance). The fact that this
is their land and yet they are not treated with even a fraction of the
respect that a visiting tourist would get just for being a rich, blonde
american is what makes these resorts evil.
>> .... It is also a fact that
>> in all likelyhood the same subset of people would probably not be welcomed
>> there. I have stood at a hotel desk with a reservation and have been told
>> that there is no longer a room available (after, I am sure, seeing what I
>> look like),
>Token : "Some people discriminate against mexicans in hotels"
"Some people?" I'm talking about MEXICAN hoteliers discriminating against
INDIANS, and hotels are the most trivial example of stages for this sort
of discrimination that I can think of.
>Conclusion : "Touristic development is not good for the country".
Yes, touristic development that is exclusive of natives of the country,
that enriches only a small sector of the natives, is not good for the
country.
>> At any rate, I think that what we have here is not an exaggeration, but
>> clearly a difference in world views. To you this Cancun-style development
>> represents improvement. To me employment in subservient and demeaning jobs
>> at marginal wages,
>Marginal wages that happen to be (in the average) three times the minimum
>wage. Demeaning jobs? Sweeping floors and serving food are not demeaning jobs.
>I'm surprised that Ricardo, who seems to be a sensitive person for the unfavoured
>people, felt into this bourgeois-class attitude of calling honest jobs that
>involve physical labor "demeaning".
[Parente'ticamente, Alejandro, "Ricardo" no tiene sensibilidades
a favor de los "desfavorecidos," "Ricardo" ES un "desfavorecido" naco, indio,
quien sabe lo que te dice por experiencia personal, no por ser misericordioso]
These jobs are demeaning because the poor have no choice in the matter. The
ONLY way a native local to the area of Huatulco, our current example, can
set foot in these sumptuous frolicking grounds for the rich and the foreign
is to clean toilets, sweep floors, manicure the grounds, wait on the guests
by the beach or poolside. It is EXPECTED that this is their role, that is
what is demeaning, not the nature of the jobs themselves.
> .......for the pleasure of foreign tourists and the profit of
>> capitalists, is not only beneath the dignity of any self-respecting human
>> being,
>Why producing pleasure in other human beings is degrading per se?
This is a red herring. It bears no relation to my original point. If the
most you could aspire to in your own backyard would be to scrub toilets (even
fancy ones, touched by only the finest mierda ;), I doubt you'd regard your
services as being rendered for the cause of producing pleasure in the
human being who's giving you something to scrub. The insidious part of this
is that I think it is patently clear that the locals are hired for the
double purpose of performing the menial tasks as well as to be seen
performing said tasks. I don't know if I explain myself clearly, but I
mean that the average tourist would probably be dissapointed if they
travelled all the way to Huatulco and didn't see one of them there
grinning', friendly brown Mexicans fetching up their martini's in a straw
hat like they're supposed to be doing. This is the height of exploitation.
>> but in addition serves only to reinforce the pattern of exploitation
>> and racial hierarchy that is at the heart of the root that is contemporary
>> Mexican society.
>More than a racial hierarchy, I would prefer to call it an "economical"
>hierarchy: You've got dollars? then you're welcome, you don't? then clear
>out "indio mugriento".
In a sense, I agree with you on this, but not completely. I agree that in
modern Mexico being poor and being Indian are for all intents and purposes
one and the same. Where I don't agree is that having the money makes all the
difference. Again, from my personal experience I know, and I know that
you can't possibly, honestly, believe that I and my grandmother could walk
into any Ritz or Marriott of our choosing in D.F., Guadalajara, Acapulco
with a fistful of dollars and be accepted on the strength of my ability to
pay.
>> I see Huatulco and my blood curls. You see Huatulco
^^^^^
Now that I see this again I
see that it should have been
"curdles," pardon moi :-0
>> (you _have_ seen it, haven't you?)
>
>I don't know what this has to do with the discussion, but yes I've
>been to Huatulco.
Alex, no te hagas el dolido ;), tu' me implicaste en el mensaje original
que yo era quien no conoci'a Huatulco. Por lo que yo apenas vengo de ahi'
y tu' me se~alaste que la situacio'n no es como la describi', dude' de
que conocieras al lugar personalmente.
>> and you see fluffy clouds and crimson sunsets.
>
>Sparkling gold sand, tranquil seas, and ocasionally a giant turtle or
>a whale....
Just think, the Oaxacans of the area used to be able to enjoy all this
without subjecting themselves to humiliation before any outsiders, and
without having to pay a cent. I don't see how today's situation can in
any way be regarded as an improvement over that.
-Ricardo
Enrique Cortes-Rello
> modern Mexico being poor and being Indian are for all intents and purposes
> one and the same. Where I don't agree is that having the money makes all the
> difference. Again, from my personal experience I know, and I know that
> you can't possibly, honestly, believe that I and my grandmother could walk
> into any Ritz or Marriott of our choosing in D.F., Guadalajara, Acapulco
> with a fistful of dollars and be accepted on the strength of my ability to
> pay.
>
Sorry to dissapoint but:
I went to what some would call an "elite" university in Mexico City.
I am not rich, but some of my classmates were VERY rich. I saw "gueritos"
but I also saw people with strong indian characteristics among the very
rich and powerful (sons of politicians etc.). So, my theory is that in Mexico,
if you have ENOUGH MONEY you can do whatever you want (even if you look indian). ^^^^^^^^^^^^
We may have a semantic problem here: do we call a rich mexican that "looks
like an indian" an "indian" or not? I'm choosing to call such persons indians.
As for myself, I am like most Mexicans a mixture of Indian and European. My
family (my parents) and I consider ourselves to be "middle class" (whatever that is).
We have traveled extensively in Mexico (yes, we can
afford the Marriotts etc...) and I
never ever felt discriminated against.
^^^^^^^^^^^
Now ... clubs and discos are different ... but try to get into ANY trendy
club in Mexico, Acapulco or LOS ANGELES or NY ...
Enrique
Alex Lopez-Ortiz
is hard for me to tell since I'm a "cara palida" (whiteskin) but I don't
think that racism on the basis of skin colour is a common practice in
Mexico. Remembre how the rich people in the markets are "gueritas" and
"gueritos" (blondies) regardless of their true skin colour?
Alex
Ricardo J Salvador
>> In a sense, I agree with you on this, but not completely. I agree that in
>> modern Mexico being poor and being Indian are for all intents and purposes
>> one and the same. Where I don't agree is that having the money makes all the
>> difference. Again, from my personal experience I know, and I know that
>> you can't possibly, honestly, believe that I and my grandmother could walk
>> into any Ritz or Marriott of our choosing in D.F., Guadalajara, Acapulco
>> with a fistful of dollars and be accepted on the strength of my ability to
>> pay.
>>
>
>Sorry to dissapoint but:
>
>I went to what some would call an "elite" university in Mexico City.
>I am not rich, but some of my classmates were VERY rich. I saw "gueritos"
>but I also saw people with strong indian characteristics among the very
>rich and powerful (sons of politicians etc.). So, my theory is that in Mexico,
>if you have ENOUGH MONEY you can do whatever you want (even if you look indian). ^^^^^^^^^^^^
No Enrique, you misunderstand. Such trends do not dissapoint, they are
encouraging. However, you go on to probe this a little more deeply:
>We may have a semantic problem here: do we call a rich mexican that "looks
>like an indian" an "indian" or not? I'm choosing to call such persons indians.
Yes, this is at the heart of the matter. What does it mean to be Indian?
I don't mean to be pedantic, but let me propose a few useful criteria:
1. The individual is of indigenous racial stock
2. The individual is from a rural, usually economically deprived background
3. The individual speaks an aboriginal language
4. The individual regards himself as an indian (or as "gente humilde," a
colonial code word used to euphemize the social status of indians)
Now then, there will of course be exceptions, but by and large these four
conditions would usually be associated with a person whom we would all
recognize as being Indio, as oppossed to whatever in the hell the remainder
of Mexicans consider themselves. In addition, there are many intangibles
usually associated with item 4 that we might agree to define as an
"aboriginal culture," such as material culture (clothing, social habits,
types of food) and social culture (a given worldview).
Some of the exceptions might be folks who meet all criteria but no longer
speak an aboriginal language because it was never taught to them, or it
wasn't spoken where they were raised. For instance, I have many cousins
(i.e., people my age) who have been raised in Los Angeles arnd are Indian
in every way that I've described except that they speak English rather
than Zapotec. Another exception might be the case of someone who meets
all the criteria but is economically well-to-do, especially in the context
of their own towns. However, I would argue that the key criterion is
number 4. The individual who is all but number 4 will usually do all that
is within his/her means to hide/overcome the identifying baggage of
the other criteria. In other words, the person who gives up/rejects his
cultural heritage is by that very fact, in my view, no longer indian in
the most important sense, that of identifying with and preserving a common
cultural legacy.
Therefore, I know full well the truth behind your examples. You did not
in fact, you see, go to school with indians. The fact that you point to
the fact that you considered them to share in the privileges of a certain
social class _even though they looked indian_ is only proof by example of
the racial tagging that I am pointing out underrides our entire society.
>As for myself, I am like most Mexicans a mixture of Indian and European. My
>family (my parents) and I consider ourselves to be "middle class" (whatever that is).
>We have traveled extensively in Mexico (yes, we can
>afford the Marriotts etc...) and I
>never ever felt discriminated against.
Again, in the code terms of our society, you are not indian. If you can
afford these places then I understand that there is no reason for you to
have ever felt discrimination, and therefore this is the reason that on
the basis of your experience you are fairly certain such does not exist
in Mexico. Now then, you must really understand what I mean in my "real
world" example above. The reason that I used my grandmother as an example
is that when she and I walk into a place like this we will stand out
because we not only "look indian" (as you have pointed out, this handicap
can be overcome), but we speak Zapotec (even though she understands
Spanish now, after having lived in Oaxaca City for 10 years, she will not
speak it unless the interlocutor absolutely does not know Zapotec), she
is wearing nahuas, huaraches and wears her hair in braids. If I walk into
a place with my father, her son, the same will happen. If I walk into the
same place with my mother, a german-american, lo! the treatment is entirely
different. As a matter of fact, if the whole indian lot of us walks in with
my mother the treatment of all of us is notably different. If I walk into
a place on my own and want to be treated "correctly" (los mexicanos saben
que significa esto), then I must act Mexican, you know what I mean: I must
speak city Spanish, I must watch what I wear, etc.
Do I explain myself a little better?
>Now ... clubs and discos are different ... but try to get into ANY trendy
>club in Mexico, Acapulco or LOS ANGELES or NY ...
You are quite correct. However, this does not argue that there is no
racism in Mexico, only that there is also racism and economic elitism in
the US. That's another ball of wax. (Entre nos, las discotecas ya sean
mexicanas o gringas son los lugares que me tienen con la menor preocupa-
cio'n por su exclusividad cu~ao, ;).
I'll say more on this subject in a subsequent post. It is very important
that we recognize that this exists in our society, why it is only evident
to some in the society, and what the historical roots are. The first step
toward improving a problematic situation is to recognize that a problem
exists.
Thanks for your thoughtful comments.
Hasta moztla,
-Ricardo
Carlos Perez
>In article <1991Sep26....@ennews.eas.asu.edu> cor...@enuxva.eas.asu.edu (Enrique Cortes-Rello) writes:
>>> In a sense, I agree with you on this, but not completely. I agree that in
>>> modern Mexico being poor and being Indian are for all intents and purposes
>>> one and the same.
... A bunch of lines deleted on purpose
.
>>I went to what some would call an "elite" university in Mexico City.
>>I am not rich
"elite" because you pay for the social status or "elite" because
some academic merits?. If it is because of the social status, thus
you are implying social discrimination (which some people carry to
such an extreme that one could called it "racism")
>>So, my theory is that in Mexico,
>>if you have ENOUGH MONEY you can do whatever you want (even if you look indian). ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
An argument in favor of Diaz Ordaz :-)
>Yes, this is at the heart of the matter. What does it mean to be Indian?
I guess only Indians know, mestizos (espero no ofender sensibilidades)
will always have a hard time defining what they are. They cannot
pretend to be one or the other because their fetures will betray them.
>I don't mean to be pedantic, but let me propose a few useful criteria:
>
>1. The individual is of indigenous racial stock
>2. The individual is from a rural, usually economically deprived background
>3. The individual speaks an aboriginal language
>4. The individual regards himself as an indian (or as "gente humilde," a
> colonial code word used to euphemize the social status of indians)
This is a non-sense. I guess by reading Juan Rulfo or Rius (either
Los Supermachos o los Agachados) you could re-work your definitions
based on less simplistic criteria. I could also add that all
native americans (I mean from the american continet) fall in the
mongoloid category. Very easy to check if someone belongs to this group:
If your front teeth are concave (the inside part) you are in :-).
>For instance, I have many cousins
>(i.e., people my age) who have been raised in Los Angeles arnd are Indian
>in every way that I've described except that they speak English rather
>than Zapotec.
Isn't that sad?. Aren't they the people Octavio Paz described as
'pachucos' some years ago?
>>As for myself, I am like most Mexicans a mixture of Indian and European.
My
>>family (my parents) and I consider ourselves to be "middle class" (whatever that is).
>If I walk into the
>same place with my mother, a german-american, lo! the treatment is entirely
>different.
Herencia cultural de la Malinche, o no?
>a place on my own and want to be treated "correctly" (los mexicanos saben
>que significa esto), then I must act Mexican, you know what I mean: I must
>speak city Spanish, I must watch what I wear, etc.
Interesante, yo no se que significa actuar como Mexicano, a pesar
de haber nacido en Mexico y vivido las 3/4 partes de mi vida ahi.
>You are quite correct. However, this does not argue that there is no
>racism in Mexico
Hay racismo en Mexico como lo hay en las cuatro esquinas del
mundo. Sin embargo, a differencia de otros paises, los grupos
raciales -sin incluir a las communidades indigenas como lacandones,
series, yaquis, tarhumaras, etc- no estan bien definidas, y no
tienen ninguna intencion de definirse. El menosprecio de los
mestizos hacia los grupos indigenas ha existido desde la
primera generacion de mestizos. Una gran mayoria de padres en
Mexico, que sin ser ricos (o parte de la clase media), todavia se
escandalizan cuando sus hijos se interesan en un "indio, prieto,
y feo" (aunque el dinero puede limpiar algunas asperezas).
El menosprecio por todo lo indio ha impedido a los mestizos
apreciar la cultura y la herencia india. La influencia europea
y los estereotipos de una sociedad blanca tambien han contribuido
ha que el mestizo no quiera de ninguna manera ser relacionado
con lo indio, cuantas veces no hemos oido insultos que igualan
las cualidades del insultado con las de un indio?. Gran dilema
para la sociedad mexicana, no hay agua que le limpie su cara
morena -no hasta la virgen es morena :-)? -. Ah, pero no se le
ocurra decirle a alguien en mexico que parece indio :-)
carlos
Ricardo J Salvador
>>I don't mean to be pedantic, but let me propose a few useful criteria:
>>
>>1. The individual is of indigenous racial stock
>>2. The individual is from a rural, usually economically deprived background
>>3. The individual speaks an aboriginal language
>>4. The individual regards himself as an indian (or as "gente humilde," a
>> colonial code word used to euphemize the social status of indians)
>
>This is a non-sense. I guess by reading Juan Rulfo or Rius (either
>Los Supermachos o los Agachados) you could re-work your definitions
>based on less simplistic criteria. I could also add that all
>native americans (I mean from the american continet) fall in the
>mongoloid category. Very easy to check if someone belongs to this group:
>If your front teeth are concave (the inside part) you are in :-).
Hemos estado discutiendo que el origen del racismo post-colonial (porque
lo habi'a tambien pre-conquista) se fundamento' sobre un orden social en
el cual la raza (o "color") era la prenda visible del estado del individuo.
Es preci'samente el grano de lo que hemos expuesto que por tales razones
es ahora difi'cil distinguir si el menosprecio que se siente por las
clases "bajas" en Me'xico se deba a que estas sean personas pobres o a
que sean indi'genas. Da lo mismo. Es una observacio'n en la cual creo
concordamos muchos y que es un tanto alego'rica como tambie'n verdadera.
O sea, cual es el significado de ser "indio" en el Me'xico moderno, pues
que se es de lo peor y ya con eso basta en cuanto a definiciones.
Ahora, en cuanto a definiciones estrictamente raciales, opino que habri'as
de proceder con poca mas de cautela. Las diferencias gene'ticas entre
la poblacio'n de abori'genes americanos y los "mongoloides" que mencionas
es lo suficientemente grande como para que se considere a los primeros en
su categori'a separada, la de los "amerindios." Aparte de tener ciertas
diferencias importantes (en terminos gene'ticos explicables en base a
la evolucio'n aislada y divergente de los dos grupos a partir de hace
algunos 20,000 y pico de a~os), la poblacio'n amerindia es tan diversa
que cualquier generalizacio'n es peligrosa. Hay gente con barbas llenas
(Alakaluf del sur de Chile), gente casi caucasoide, como lo son los
indi'genas del noroeste canadiense (en cuanto al color blanquizco de piel),
hay gente de alta estatura como lo son la mayori'a de los que habitaron
originalmente las planicies de norteame'rica y de patagonia; todos estos
factores contrarios a los que comu'nmente se usari'an para diagnosticar
la calidad "racial" del indi'gena en latinoamerica. Tu ejemplo de los
dientes es tambie'n peligroso porque no todas las poblaciones amerindias
se conformari'an al tal criterio. En general, casi todas las indicaciones
fenoti'picas pueden conducir al error, porque toda poblacio'n humana es,
por naturaleza, muy variable, y hay mucha convergencia evolutiva. Aparte,
es muy importante se~alar lo obvio, y es que los grupos raciales humanos
comparten mucho mas de lo que los separe (cuando tome' gene'tica me extra~e'
mucho al escuchar que la definicio'n gene'tica de una raza era aquel grupo
dentro del cual se podi'an hacer cruzamientos exitosos, porque entonces
segu'n esta definicio'n hay una sola raza humana).
Te dire' cuales son, entre mi gente las se~as que nosotros mismos
reconocemos, y como estas mismas nos han conducido a ciertos situaciones
medio risibles. El zapoteco es por lo general chaparro (bajo de estatura),
pero de tronco fuerte y de pantorrillas muy bien delineadas (todas estas,
he venido a leer posteriormente, caracteri'sticas de la gente monta~e's
en dondequiera que se le encuentre en el mundo). Te podra' parecer
curioso, pero en la sierra te pudiera decir casi casi noma's por verle
la pantorrilla a la persona si es zapoteca, mixe o mestizo. Luego
tambie'n esta'n los ojos, razgados (con el llamado "doble's epica'ntico").
Han habido ocasiones en las cuales algunos de mis primos en Los Angeles
han quedado ato'nitos ante algu'n desconocido coreano quien se les
acerca con mucha confianza a preguntarles sabe que (la hora? que do'nde
esta' el cine?), y otras menos chistosas en las cuales algunos de ellos
han sido redados por "la migra" y han estado en peligro de deportacio'n
_al oriente_ en lugar de a Me'xico ;). Es notable tambie'n la forma
de avejentar de la gente. Esto es mas difi'cil de explicar, pero muy
generalmente, el indi'gena no encanece sino hasta edad muy avanzada
(mucho mas por decir al respecto, pero mejor por ahora no). Las
barbas tambie'n son notables, al estilo ralo y lampi~o. Aqui' muchas
veces he notado que se me quedan viendo los estudiantes de Indonesia
como queriendo reconocerme... ;). Las madres zapotecas buscan "la
mancha" que traen los ni~os zapotecas durante los primeros a~os de
vida en la espalda inferior (mi jefa me ha dicho que la mi'a duro'
como hasta los dos a~os de edad). Posteriormente llegue' a saber en
clase de bioqui'mica que esta mancha, llamada "mongoloide" se debe
a una superdotacio'n de mitocondrios en el tejido subcuta'neo. Al
parecer, su funcio'n biolo'gica es la generacio'n de calor para el
infante expuesto a la intemperie. Otra caracteri'stica que la
gente conoce es la huella digital del indi'gena, que por lo general
tiene muchas ondulaciones. Es de los europeos tener las mismas trazas
muy levemente curvas, segu'n esto. Si es asi' entonces tengo dedos
de europeo. De modo que vera's que el concepto del "fenotipo racial"
entre los humanos es medio confuso (en si' la idea en general casi
se ha desmoronado, si te interesas mas te recomiendo el muy interesante
libro "Human Diversity" del bio'logo de poblaciones Richard Lewontin
(Harvard)). Al parecer, so'lo en el campo estri'ctamente gene'tico
se puede generalizar sobre bases un poco mas generales. Por ejemplo,
los grupos sangui'neos de los indi'genas de latinoame'rica carecen
completamente de los tipos A(2), B, y Rh-negativo. Del sistema
clasificatorio ABU, tan so'lo el tipo U se conoce entre estos
indi'genas (tipo U, Rh-positivo, tu servidor, y cuidado con lo que
vayan a descubrir si lo rebuscan demasiado ustedes ;).
>>For instance, I have many cousins
>>(i.e., people my age) who have been raised in Los Angeles arnd are Indian
>>in every way that I've described except that they speak English rather
>>than Zapotec.
>
>Isn't that sad?. Aren't they the people Octavio Paz described as
>'pachucos' some years ago?
Para nada lo considero triste. Estas personas esta'n haciendo sus vidas
en Los Angeles en un a'mbito muy distinto al de sus parientes oaxaque~os.
Si permanecieran en Oaxaca otra cosa seri'a, pero como a Me'xico no le
deben nada y Me'xico prefiere verles en el exilio o muertos de hambre en
la sierra no considero que haya nada que lamentarse por esta situacio'n.
Esto me hace recordar ciertos comentarios al propo'sito de que agredieron
y golpearon a unos "mojados" mexicanos ciertos agentes de la migra EUnidense
hace algunas semanas. Deci'amos entre la raza cuando esto ocurri'a en
la frontera durante los varios a~os que vivi' ahi' (porque es un suceso
no tan raro) que se indignaban mucho las autoridades mexicanas ante tales
acontecimientos porque seguramente pensaban que quienes eran los gringos
para abusar y golpear a los pobres mexicanos, que para ese privilegio nadie
mejor que los mexicanos mismos. Aqui' no corresponde carita sonriente
porque es la pura y triste realidad. De modo que para que deben hablar
el zapoteco estos neo-angele~os? Para que se les tilde de indios y se
les descrimine mas? Aparte de la carga de ser mexicanos en Los Angeles,
sus concitadinos gringos, chicanos y coreanos escasamente podri'an
comprender que fueran "indios tambie'n." Al propo'sito tambie'n, aprendi'
en la frontera que el vocablo "pachuco" lo originaron las pandillas angele~as
para referirse despectivamente a los chicanos provenientes de El Paso,
Texas ("El Pachuco," en el calo' chicano), por ahi' alrededor de los 30 o
40.
>>If I walk into the
>>same place with my mother, a german-american, lo! the treatment is entirely
>>different.
>
>Herencia cultural de la Malinche, o no?
Ese es un simplismo, pero al propo'sito va un cuento de la vida real, el
cual presencie' de peque~o (mucho antes de comprender su significancia),
y el cual mi jefe gusta repetir: Sucedio' que mi papa' barri'a el patio
de nuestra casa mientras yo jugeteaba cerca de e'l. Mi mama' atendi'a
sus lirios. El prototipo indi'gena, ella prototipo alema'n. Llego' una
vendedora de "huevos de gallo" (ese es un cuento aparte) y cuando se le
acerco' mi papa' diciendole que por lo pronto no queri'amos comprarle,
que le dice con coraje y sin compuncio'n la vendedora: "Tu' ca'llate
baboso, si le estoy hablando a tu patrona!" :-0
>>a place on my own and want to be treated "correctly" (los mexicanos saben
>>que significa esto), then I must act Mexican, you know what I mean: I must
>>speak city Spanish, I must watch what I wear, etc.
>
>Interesante, yo no se que significa actuar como Mexicano, a pesar
>de haber nacido en Mexico y vivido las 3/4 partes de mi vida ahi.
Claro, aqui' yo use' un concepto que para el mexicano, o mestizo no tiene
ninguna significancia. Error mio el no amplificarlo. Es un concepto muy
usado entre los indi'genas. El comportarse como "mexicano" significa
no comportarse como indio. Asi' de sencillo.
Gracias por tus aportaciones, Carlos.
-Ricardo
Root Lightning
|> In article <1991Oct2.0...@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> ro...@Epone.McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Carlos Perez) writes:
|>
|> >>I don't mean to be pedantic, but let me propose a few useful criteria:
|> >>
|> >>1. The individual is of indigenous racial stock
|> >>2. The individual is from a rural, usually economically deprived background
|> >>3. The individual speaks an aboriginal language
|> >>4. The individual regards himself as an indian (or as "gente humilde," a
|> >> colonial code word used to euphemize the social status of indians)
|> >
|> >This is a non-sense.
|> Ahora, en cuanto a definiciones estrictamente raciales,
Y es por eso que no estoy de acuerdo con [1-4]
|> De modo que vera's que el concepto del "fenotipo racial"
|> entre los humanos es medio confuso (en si' la idea en general casi
|> se ha desmoronado, si te interesas mas te recomiendo el muy interesante
|> libro "Human Diversity" del bio'logo de poblaciones Richard Lewontin
|> (Harvard)).
Y es por eso aun mas que no estoy de acuerdo con 1
Al parecer, so'lo en el campo estri'ctamente gene'tico
|> se puede generalizar sobre bases un poco mas generales. Por ejemplo,
|> los grupos sangui'neos de los indi'genas de latinoame'rica carecen
|> completamente de los tipos A(2), B, y Rh-negativo.
Hay otras caracteristicas mas, pero en fin, mejor sepultemos numero 1.
|> >>For instance, I have many cousins
|> >>(i.e., people my age) who have been raised in Los Angeles arnd are Indian
|> >>in every way that I've described except that they speak English rather
|> >>than Zapotec.
|> >
|> >Isn't that sad?. Aren't they the people Octavio Paz described as
|> >'pachucos' some years ago?
|>
|> Para nada lo considero triste. Estas personas esta'n haciendo sus vidas
|> en Los Angeles en un a'mbito muy distinto al de sus parientes oaxaque~os.
Yo si considero muy triste que una persona con todas las posibilidades
para beneficiarse de dos (o mas) culturas. Renuncie a une y no sea bien
acceptado en la otra. En cuanto al aspecto economico, los Angeles podra
tener abundancia de bienes lo cual no signica que estas gentes tengan
los medios para adquirirlos. En cuanto si a Mexico le interese o no,
esto no tiene nada que ver con el legado cultural (la lengua siendo parte
de este). La cultura y el sentirse ciudadano de un pais oscilan en frecuencias
muy diferents (IMHO).
|> porque es la pura y triste realidad. De modo que para que deben hablar
|> >>If I walk into the
|> >>same place with my mother, a german-american, lo! the treatment is entirely
|> >>different.
|> >
|> >Herencia cultural de la Malinche, o no?
|>
|> Ese es un simplismo,
I agree again.
|> >>a place on my own and want to be treated "correctly" (los mexicanos saben
|> >>que significa esto), then I must act Mexican, you know what I mean: I must
|> >>speak city Spanish, I must watch what I wear, etc.
|> >
|> >Interesante, yo no se que significa actuar como Mexicano, a pesar
|> >de haber nacido en Mexico y vivido las 3/4 partes de mi vida ahi.
|>
|> Claro, aqui' yo use' un concepto que para el mexicano, o mestizo no tiene
|> ninguna significancia. Error mio el no amplificarlo. Es un concepto muy
|> usado entre los indi'genas. El comportarse como "mexicano" significa
|> no comportarse como indio. Asi' de sencillo.
|>
Aun no entiendo. Es algo asi como el vestido del rey que solamente
los puros de alma o iniciados pueden ver?
--
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Juan-Carlos Perez, Systems Administrator car...@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
Research Centre for Intelligent Machines Phone: (514) 398-7155
McGill University, Montreal Fax: (514) 398-7348
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