TExt en Chicano
Silvia Eichhorn-Jung
thank you very much for all the precious help you sent me, partly via
emails which I responded directly, partly via the newsgroup. I've got a
very good translation now and I'm so glad about it! Well, for everybody
interested in the subject: here is another piece, this time in Chicano,
taken from Villanueva, Chicanos (1985, 129). I've already translated the
text and if you are interested in one of the words, please ask me. I
found them all in dictionaries (thanks for the links of online
dictionaries some people gave me!!)...
Ciao Silvia
Here is the text:
"Desde el porche de mi chante, en mi barrio de Eastlos, Aztlán, watcho a
mis carnales cruziar por los caies rumbo a sus cantones despues del
jale: vatos cabuliando con sus jainas, pachucos fuliando afuera de la
marketa de don Charlie, agüelitas con chavalios de la mano y un bonche
de raza que sale de los boses que vienen del daontaon. Toda esta es mi
Raza, alegre, orgullosa y muy jaladora aunque la placa siempre los esté
tisiando"
Pat Zeitoun
difficult a task. It is definitely not easy to translate the idoma of the
street into Spanish first, then into English. It is one hell of a leap to
understand 'fuliando' (a bastardized English into a verb in Spanish ) means
to 'fool around'.
It may be interesting for you to note that I gave your latest post to a
friend of mine to translate for me. I knew I did not understand all of it
in its exact meaning. My friend is in his mid 40's (just so other readers
know he is not too old to be 'cool'), a naturalized American citizen who
without speaking word of English came here from a little puebla near
Monterrey, Mexico upon completion of high school. I give Oscar's background
so that the reader will know that he, Oscar, is a native speaker in Spanish
whose English is absolutely perfect. I will add that Oscar is well
educated, well traveled and a professional man with no present or past
contact with gangs or their language (except for my students I have
introduced him to), either here or in Mexico. He found this latest post
extremely difficult to translate. There were a couple of words I had to
tell him, only because I hear students use them. God knows the words are
neither Spanish nor English!
I have passed on some of the poetry from Calaca Press and the 'Taco Shop'
poets, and other contemporary poets to Oscar, commenting that I had read
that it is currently quite trendy to write in this 'idioma' . Oscar has
made what to me is an interesting comment that I would like to share and get
feedback from the group about.
1. Although he finds the writing interesting as art, expression and in a
sociological/linguistic context, he abhors (If this or any other word is
misspelled, sue me. I cannot find the spell-check on my new set up)
'legitimizing' the curruption of a beautiful language through ignorance.
2. He views this as Ebonics/doubled. Ebonics only currupts English. This,
what Sylvia has called
'Chicano', corrupts TWO languages. It would be comforting to believe that
to choose to write in this 'idoma' is by choice and not because the
inability to speak either language correctly. Unfortunately, in the case of
my students, the latter is correct.
I am certain that Manuel and Michael among others, (Is Pomponio in da'
house?) will have some poignant and scholarly insights on this subject. I
promised Oscar that I would pass all comments on to him. He works with
computers all day every day, but is just now adding one at home. He'll be a
reguular contributor soon!
Again, thank you for your interesting posts,
PatZ
Silvia Eichhorn-Jung <s.eic...@rz.uni-sb.de> wrote in message
news:37B70E13...@rz.uni-sb.de...
J. Manuel Urrutia
thought better lest some may think that I am presumiendo of my intellectual
powers ;-) This piece is in Chicano, and is quite close to the one mentioned
by Sedano.
Now, I think that Oscar is too much of a snob. Is he aware that Spanish
appeared because some low life tried to speak Latin and ended up mixing it with
Celtic, Arabic, and Visigothic? Despite Pat's glowing recommendation, I don't
think that he is that well educated. Either that, or "they" washed his brain
in school and forced him to genuflect towards Madrid (sede de la RALE)
everytime he commits an Anglicism, something he must do often since he is
involved with computers...
In short, dismissal of "border speak" by wrapping oneself on the "curruption of
a beautiful language through ignorance" banner is myopic and snobbish.
> 2. He views this as Ebonics/doubled. Ebonics only currupts English. This,
No, no, y no. Ebonics is a dialect only because it does not have an army.
> what Sylvia has called
> 'Chicano', corrupts TWO languages. It would be comforting to believe that
I don't think so. It creates a new one.
> to choose to write in this 'idoma' is by choice and not because the
> inability to speak either language correctly. Unfortunately, in the case of
> my students, the latter is correct.
Ummm. Your students are communicating well among themselves. It is the fact
that they cannot communicate in a standard language that causes problems.
> I am certain that Manuel and Michael among others, (Is Pomponio in da'
> house?) will have some poignant and scholarly insights on this subject. I
> promised Oscar that I would pass all comments on to him. He works with
> computers all day every day, but is just now adding one at home. He'll be a
> reguular contributor soon!
Tell Oscar that one day, long ago, I was like him. Then I realized that using
language to belittle someone was not good and could only lead to
misunderstanding and resentment ("pinches pochos, que no saben hablar bien!"
"fucking Mexicans, they think they are a big deal because they speak
Castillian!"). I then broadened my horizons and came to understand the beauty
of communication, by any means necessary.
Michael Sedano
individuals infinite communicative resources. There is controversy here,
as well as contemporary research and reading I hope someone hereabouts
can discuss.
I refer to code-switching as "mezcla" indicating language mixing, but
also for the metaphor of mortar, the stuff that holds structures
together. Mezcla can be an innocent byproduct of second language
learning, or a deliberate technique used to produce a desired result.
At any rate, mezcla is what happens when some of us open our mouths.
There are at least two schools of thought on the beauty of mezcla. Oscar
's disappointment represents the "linguistic prescriptivist" school that
argues there is one and only one correct and proper manner of speaking
and writing a language, and this is the manner codified in the
"official" or "accepted" texts, grammars, lexicon of "the language."
Urrutia cites la academia española as among the world's "leaders" in
protecting the "purity" of Castellano / Spanish. Prescriptivists in
extremis are the "English Only" jerks.
There are the "descriptivists" who look at language and speech as the
outcome of ordinary intercourse among language users. Certain styles of
speech / writing have variant consequences. Dialect studies
identify thousands of varieties of US English, e.g. "SAE" or "standard
amerikan english", "NNE" or "negro nonstandard english" reflect a
comprehension that groups of folks speak differently.
Some folks, like Oscar, abhor and abjur the mezcla. Chacun a son gout,
or, there's no accounting for taste. Oscar's appreciation of the
artistic uses of mezcla illustrates how senseless the prescriptivist's
stance ultimately becomes.
No language is corrupted by bringing influences from other communities.
Pues, what do you think de todo esto? There's a school of thought that
explains how psychologically the switching from code to code constitutes
a rhetorical strategy. E.g., a mezcla speaker using spanish-origined
words to indicate personally important or hearth 'n home issues ("Yeah,
I know, Doris, pero mi mama dice que I gotta be home by 12 or I'm
grounded").
Raza, there are undoubtedly thousands of you better informed in
contemporary sociolinguistic research than I. I invite your wising me
and fellow SCMAers up on what people are saying these days.
I'll leave it with this Hypothesis: Mezcla constitutes a critically
valuable resource for community building.
atte, mvs
--
Read! raza
Michael Sedano - Mse...@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/msedano/mvs.html
c/s
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
d...@cheetah.net
wrote:
>Pat: the fusion of language and culture we're discussing here offers
>individuals infinite communicative resources. There is controversy here,
>as well as contemporary research and reading I hope someone hereabouts
>can discuss.
>
>I refer to code-switching as "mezcla" indicating language mixing, but
>also for the metaphor of mortar, the stuff that holds structures
>together.
CLIPPED
Mortar also holds elements
of the total structure apart.
DCI
tejas
all my life. I miss it, now that I live so far away from it on
the East Coast.
--
TBSa...@richmond.infi.net (also te...@infi.net)
'Do the boogie woogie in the South American way'
Hank Snow THE RHUMBA BOOGIE
Silvia Eichhorn-Jung
> text, but a German one. It ended up in a kind of German caló... I'll
> try an English one now (sorry for my English!):
From the front-court of my house, in my district in East L.A., Aztlán,
I'm watching my brothers/friends crossing the streets in the direction
of their quarters, after work: guys walking around with their
girlfrinds, pachucos [I would'nt translate that word] fooling around the
shop of Don Charlie, grandmas with little children at their hands and a
crowd of my people stepping out the buses which come from downtown. All
this is my People, cheerful, proud and very hard working, even if the
cops are always teasing them.
Concerning your reply to Pat: I think you're right, Manuel. Language is
like a living organism that is constantly changing and adapting itself
to the speaker's needs. Every language is equal if it serves to make
communication possible. Concerning Chicanos, the problem is their need
to learn English if they want to get ahead socially and economically.
The mixture of languages doesn't imply giving up the own national or
cultural identity. If you really think it over, Spanish is the language
of the first intrudors in Mexico, and the indigenous languages like
náhuatl and the Maya language were almost erased. You surely all know
that the Mexican called Dona Marina, a native aztec speaking Spanish,
'Malinche', the traitress, because she served as a translator to Cortez.
Additionally, it wasn't even náhuatl that was predominantly spoken in
Mexico at that time. It was spread into the country by the Christian
missionaries who prefered náhuatl to other indigenous languages and they
used it to convert the Indios into Christians. I'm surprised that
Spanish is no more seen as the language of the former imperialistic
Spanish conquerors.
By the way, the German language mixes very much with (US-)English also.
Even if we are geographically far away from the USA, we are very much
influenced by them through mass media and intense economic and political
relations. It's the same fear as everywhere: we'll speak Gernglish some
day... I'm not so much afraid about that, since you can't stop a
language from changing. Even the French can't, and their Académie
Française is much more an accepted authority as the Real Academia
Espanola in Spain for example. Maybe, in some decades, we'll try to
protect the German or French or Spanish we talk then (and which we see
as good standard worth defending, even if we turn up our noses at it
now), because we are afraid of the 'corruption' by another language...
New words are mostly created to fill semantic gaps, they have different
connotations than the words already existing, or they just have other
linguistic colorits...
Another question: is pachuco still a spoken language? I think there is a
revival of the movement in Texas nowerdays. Am I right? Has their
language evolved very much and is it still different to Chicano?
Ciao (Italianism often used in Germany ;-)
Silvia
> I
Michael Sedano
neologism purgatory. Today people seem to prefer the term "vato" to
"Pachuco", which is a sorry condition in as much as pachuco didn't have
to carry the semantic baggage of "vato" "vatoloco" "gangbanger", all
synonymous in some usage, thus, by extension, "gangster" "criminal" and
"dirty mexican". Pejoration was less a feature of "pachuco" than attends
"vato" and its variants.
Hence, to the point: calo, pachuco, as spoken among spanish - english
speakers, was never a "language" but only a dialect of frontera culture.
One might discover rules, a la Labov's NNE studies in NYC and Chicago
for black english, for Mezcla, but for the most part these will be rules
respectful of the syntax and grammar of the two mixing tongues.
mvs
In article <37B9A787...@rz.uni-sb.de>,
Silvia Eichhorn-Jung <s.eic...@rz.uni-sb.de> wrote:
> Another question: is pachuco still a spoken language? I think there is
a
> revival of the movement in Texas nowerdays. Am I right? Has their
> language evolved very much and is it still different to Chicano?
>
> Ciao (Italianism often used in Germany ;-)
>
> Silvia
>
> > I
>
>
--
Nopalito
Michael Sedano <mse...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> "Pachuco" has gone the way of the "hep cat" or the "strac trooper",
> into
> neologism purgatory. Today people seem to prefer the term "vato" to
> "Pachuco", which is a sorry condition in as much as pachuco didn't
> have
> to carry the semantic baggage of "vato" "vatoloco" "gangbanger", all
> synonymous in some usage, thus, by extension, "gangster" "criminal"
> and
> "dirty mexican".
It *didn't?* Michael, I'm really surprised to see you assert this. It's
my understanding that "Pachuco" was indeed employed by bigoted whites
and cops as a perjorative or with attendant gang-ish connotations. Of
course, gangs in those days weren't quite as loco as they are these
days, so maybe the intensity seems less to us (?) Also, I hear "vato"
being use all the time as a friendly or affectionate appellation, free
of any *chance* of gangland connotations. As I hear it, it's more like
the current English usage of "dude" than anything else, although I don't
hang with gangs. I always thought of "cholo" as being more the
negative-connotive, current version of "Pachuco" than "vato." "Vato
loco," yeah...we all know what la vida loco *really* means (attn: Ricky
Martin,) but to my ears "Vato loco" is not "vato."
> Pejoration was less a feature of "pachuco" than
> attends
> "vato" and its variants.
I'm sure you'd know better than I, amigo, but to me it's all context.
Again, I hear "vato" all the time, and although it might mean "tough
guy" in a friendly way, it doesn't have the ugly connotations you list.
I dunno...feel free to refute if you think I'm wrong or
misunderstanding, but there's my two cents.
:) Dean
cabezon Reyna
atomic submarine? He always spells the word "bato", and if he joined us
right now he could add to the confusion and fun.
David Glaser
There is a new song straight from Broadguey.
You say Bato,
I say Vato,
...
I have been busy, I have been painting my submarine but the
blumeenies me andaban tisiando.
-David
--------------------------------------------------------
cabezon Reyna wrote in message
<10407-37...@newsd-122.bryant.webtv.net>...
Nopalito
which he claims is Tapatio dialect. I'm familiar with "v" being
pronounced as "b," but this friend is the only person I've heard switch
"b" for "v." Is it just me, or is that uncommon?
Watch out for those azulmeanies, Dave. BTW there's a fully restored
version of that pelicula de Los Beatles comin' out later this
year...might be fun. Spruce up the sub, but watch out for unsolicited
sugar cubes!
- Dean
In article <7pd6av$m03$1...@autumn.news.rcn.net>,
--
http://www.splcenter.org/intelligenceproject/ip-index.html
http://www.hatewatch.org/
cabezon Reyna
Good to hear from you. Bring that sub up the Rio some day and give us a
ride! Take care, Bato.
J. Manuel Urrutia
cabezon Reyna wrote:
> Where's David Glaser when we need him the most, on vacation in his
> atomic submarine? He always spells the word "bato", and if he joined us
> right now he could add to the confusion and fun.
He spells it that way because he probably learned it in Mexico. I used to
spell it that way too, but these damn pochos won't know what I am saying
if I spell it that way. You know, as in writing "varrio" instead of
"barrio"...
J. Manuel Urrutia
> I have an amigo in Mexico who says "vueno," (phoenetically) for "bueno,"
> which he claims is Tapatio dialect. I'm familiar with "v" being
> pronounced as "b," but this friend is the only person I've heard switch
> "b" for "v." Is it just me, or is that uncommon?
I think he is pulling your leg.
To my knowledge, phonetically, there is no difference between "b de burro"
and "v de vaca" in Mexican Spanish. That is, no one has a cow if you don't
make a distinction between "la b labial" and "la v labiodental." It is
understood from context which "b/v" you mean. In English, it is another
story altogether. That is why it can be very embarrasing for a Mexican to
speak about having "problems with his/her bowels" when s/he meant to say
"vowels". At least it was to me ;-)
Michael Sedano
"Yellow Submarine" to Hwaak-Ni and the vatos off the hill are ready. There's
the 2 SanAnto dudes. The one is puro mexicano looking who opens his mouth to
sound like Charley Pride. Off the streets is Robledo, definitely holmeboy, a
good man. This guero from Mexico, speaks only spanish, vows to make a
pilgrimage to la virgen -- on his knees the whole way bleeding in agony we
tease him -- when he gets out of this pinche outfit. Cole, the Dallas Dartmouth
dropout got his ass drafted, a child of the 60s, the best of the Texas middle
classes and a good man. "PeePee" from Morgan Hill who stood perpetually
befuddled, "Sedano, you're crazy" was his standard refrain.
We entice "Hillbilly" to join us. "Bred an' raised in Hilltop, TN" Atkins would
tell us, explaining that this was close enought to Ridgetop to count. Savoring
25 cent beers, always wondering what we got out of that stuff. We rattled
Hillbilly's empties at the passing Lifers to prove we were all right. All that
stuff about moonshine and the Orange Blossom Special and all that country shit
is true, we enjoyed sharing it with Hillbilly; Top asked me incredulously one
day, "Would you let Hillbilly into your home?"
Now we've done our thing and reported to the Saturday Nite Flick in desperate
anticipation. In the first song chorus repeats, "we all live in a yellow ..."
We sit restored, once again in touch with the world back home. Hillbilly's
chair scrapes the mess hall floor and he stomps out muttering disgustedly "what
is this shit?"
mvs
Nopalito reminded me, so it's his fault:
>azulmeanies, Dave. BTW there's a fully restored
>version of that pelicula
--
RAZA, Read!
Michael Sedano
Mse...@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/msedano/mvs.html
c/s
Silvia Eichhorn-Jung
a bilabial sound, but much softer than the normal /b/. Is it pronounced
this way in Mexico? By the way: Mexican Spanish is a bit easier to
pronounce for Germans than Castilian, because of the seseo. The hardest
thing there is that people are talking so *fast*. In the beginning, I
could hardly follow a conversation... You know, the Germans take their
time when speaking ;-)
I understood that 'vato' is the more common spelling than 'bato', even
if you find it also in some texts. Where does it come from? And what is
a 'hillbilly'?
J. Manuel Urrutia schrieb:
Nopalito
Posts/reminiscences like this are gems in a 'net of mostly cheap
trinkets. Muchas gracias, and I'm really glad to see that you've started
posting some of your insightful reviews at your site. Been awhile since
I clicked the link, but encourage others to do so from time to time, and
like the vato says, buy the books and read 'em!
> Nopalito reminded me, so it's his fault:
> >azulmeanies, Dave. BTW there's a fully restored
> >version of that pelicula
My fault? I'm honored, but moreover inspired to keep trying to improve
my own writing skills.
- Dean
In article <19990819002405...@ng-fl1.aol.com>,
> --
> RAZA, Read!
> Michael Sedano
> Mse...@aol.com
> http://members.aol.com/msedano/mvs.html
> c/s
>
--
David Glaser
distinguishing between the two. For some reason, I did not. Go figure.
-David
===========================
J. Manuel Urrutia wrote in message <37BB8AC1...@ucla.edu>...
Ted Samsel
: I learned in my Spanish lessons to pronounce the /b/ and /v/ equally, as
: a bilabial sound, but much softer than the normal /b/. Is it pronounced
: this way in Mexico? By the way: Mexican Spanish is a bit easier to
: pronounce for Germans than Castilian, because of the seseo. The hardest
: thing there is that people are talking so *fast*. In the beginning, I
: could hardly follow a conversation... You know, the Germans take their
: time when speaking ;-)
: I understood that 'vato' is the more common spelling than 'bato', even
: if you find it also in some texts. Where does it come from? And what is
: a 'hillbilly'?
Try "holzschlager", a rustic stereotype from the mountains.
BTW, Cubans & puertoriqquenos speak Spanish MUCH faster than mejicanos.
: J. Manuel Urrutia schrieb:
: > cabezon Reyna wrote:
: >
: > > Where's David Glaser when we need him the most, on vacation in his
: > > atomic submarine? He always spells the word "bato", and if he joined
: > us
: > > right now he could add to the confusion and fun.
: >
: > He spells it that way because he probably learned it in Mexico. I used
: > to
: > spell it that way too, but these damn pochos won't know what I am
: > saying
: > if I spell it that way. You know, as in writing "varrio" instead of
: > "barrio"...
--
Ted Samsel....tejas@infi.net (or tbsa...@richmond.infi.net)
"do the boogie woogie in the South American way"
Rhumba Boogie- Hank Snow (1955)
cabezon Reyna
Thanks for your reply.
David always says something funny or interesting when he writes, and I
just wanted to draw him into the conversation.
Right now I really wish he'd come rescue me with his submarine because
the National Weather Service says Hurricane Bret is getting ready to
bang into Brownsville with 20 inches of rain and winds of 125 knots. We
are nervous in these parts.
Pat Zeitoun
South Padre. Send Bret on up the coast. We are dry and hot as hell!
Cheers,
PatZ
cabezon Reyna <cab...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:23835-37B...@newsd-122.bryant.webtv.net...
cabezon Reyna
you; it looks like it may spare the LRGV.
Can't leave a whole heard of goats, cattle and other dependents to run
north, so we will hunker down and wait. This old ranch survivied the
1933 monster hurricane, Buela, Allen y Gilbert, and we believe this old
ranch house can stand this one too. But we are still nervous as hell.
J. Manuel Urrutia
Silvia Eichhorn-Jung wrote:
> I learned in my Spanish lessons to pronounce the /b/ and /v/ equally, as
> a bilabial sound, but much softer than the normal /b/. Is it pronounced
> this way in Mexico? By the way: Mexican Spanish is a bit easier to
Yes, that is the case. But while I was taught in first grade by Srita.
Schneider (I kid you not, there were Germans in our town) to pronounce them
differently (she was of the old school), none of my teachers after her ever
made a big deal. Only my father would remark on their difference (but he
was also of the old school). The rest never cared one way or the other:
always soft labial /b/.
> pronounce for Germans than Castilian, because of the seseo. The hardest
Technically, though, the ceseo is not the proper way to speak Spanish-
there are differences between the /c/ (soft), /s/, and /z/, but I suppose
you have to if you want to sound like a Spaniard. ;-)
> thing there is that people are talking so *fast*. In the beginning, I
Ha, when you don't know the language, everyone talks fast...
> could hardly follow a conversation... You know, the Germans take their
> time when speaking ;-)
Yeah, right...
> I understood that 'vato' is the more common spelling than 'bato', even
In the US, it is. But that is not what it used to be in Mexico more than 20
years ago. Maybe now it is getting "crosspollination" from the US side...
> if you find it also in some texts. Where does it come from? And what is
I don't know. Why don't you pose the question in soc.culture.mexican and
see what happens?
> a 'hillbilly'?
Appellative given to those people, in general, of Irish-Scottish descent
who come from the "Hill country" just to the West of the originalThirteen
colonies. They are regarded as uncultured and naive and are the only
minority of whom people can openly make fun of. If you want a sample of
their lifestyle, check out Dwight Yoakam's first recording, "Guitars and
Cadillacs." For a popular view of the stereotype, see the old TV program
"The Beverly Hillbillies."
Silvia Eichhorn-Jung
thanks for your reply! My first teacher was a Spaniard and he always
shivered when we pronounced the German /b/ and /v/ in Spanish words
(which is the same than the corresponding English phonems).
Nevertheless, he had a terrible accent when he spoke German, which was
quite fun for us ;-))
> Yes, that is the case. But while I was taught in first grade by Srita.
>
> Schneider (I kid you not, there were Germans in our town) to pronounce
> them
> differently (she was of the old school), none of my teachers after her
> ever
Has she lived in Germany or was she born in the US? (I guess you went to
school there, didn't you?)
> > pronounce for Germans than Castilian, because of the seseo. The
> hardest
>
> Technically, though, the ceseo is not the proper way to speak Spanish-
>
> there are differences between the /c/ (soft), /s/, and /z/, but I
> suppose
> you have to if you want to sound like a Spaniard. ;-)
Yes. But this is no big problem, since we know these sounds from
English. The latter is the first foreign language we learn at school. I
only started Spanish at the university. What was great: our teacher
started speaking Spanish in the very first lesson. In the classroom he
avoided speaking German with us. It was a very good method he used. In
the beginning, he explained words with pictures or gestures and slowly
came to more complex words and phrases. And we talked a lot. This was a
much better approach to language learning than the old school method of
reading and translating, but rarely speaking!
> > thing there is that people are talking so *fast*. In the beginning,
> I
>
> Ha, when you don't know the language, everyone talks fast...
Ok, a point for you ;-)
Concerning 'bato' I have meanwhile found two different etymologies in
the 'Corominas': one saying that it comes from 'batueco', a very
negative word which litterally means wind-egg (by extension 'foolish,
dumb person'). In Castilian Spanish the word 'bato' still has got a
negative connotation, which it doesn't seem to have in Mexican Spanish
any more. The other explanation is that it comes from the gitano 'bato'
('padre') and semantically developed in Mexican Spanish into a
relatively neutral designation for any male person, like 'guy'.
By the way: tomorrow is the 'big day' of my exam. I'll tell you how it
ended...
> Appellative given to those people, in general, of Irish-Scottish
> descent
> who come from the "Hill country" just to the West of the
> originalThirteen
> colonies. They are regarded as uncultured and naive and are the only
> minority of whom people can openly make fun of. If you want a sample
> of
> their lifestyle, check out Dwight Yoakam's first recording, "Guitars
> and
> Cadillacs." For a popular view of the stereotype, see the old TV
> program
> "The Beverly Hillbillies."
Thanks! I just read this word in one of the letters of this newsgroup
and wondered what it might be...
Well, now back to the books and Pachuco caló. I wish you a very nice
Sunday!
Silvia
J. Manuel Urrutia
>
SNIP...
> Yes. But this is no big problem, since we know these sounds from
> English. The latter is the first foreign language we learn at school. I
> only started Spanish at the university. What was great: our teacher
> started speaking Spanish in the very first lesson. In the classroom he
> avoided speaking German with us. It was a very good method he used. In
> the beginning, he explained words with pictures or gestures and slowly
> came to more complex words and phrases. And we talked a lot. This was a
> much better approach to language learning than the old school method of
> reading and translating, but rarely speaking!
This is a fine way to learn a new language provided that you are already
literate in another. That is, so that you are able to read and translate
on your own. BTW, this is at the heart of the debate on "bilingual
education," a big mess that we are in.
SNIP...
> By the way: tomorrow is the 'big day' of my exam. I'll tell you how it
> ended...
Good luck...
--
* J. Manuel Urrutia | En tierra de ciegos, *
* urrutia...@ucla.edu (remove TAKEOUT!) | el tuerto es rey *
Silvia Eichhorn-Jung
> This is a fine way to learn a new language provided that you are
> already
> literate in another. That is, so that you are able to read and
> translate
> on your own. BTW, this is at the heart of the debate on "bilingual
> education," a big mess that we are in.
Is the 'pattern drill' still used? It was one of the approaches by
Bloomfield if I remember well. You don't learn the grammar rules, but to
speak little phrases, and after having achieved a certain knowledge of
the language, you get deaper into its structure.
> SNIP...
> > By the way: tomorrow is the 'big day' of my exam. I'll tell you how
> it
> > ended...
>
> Good luck...
Thanks! You know, my prof told me that he had never thought I would be
able to translate the texts. He never intended to let me translate the
whole text, but just to get an impression and the translation of some
words. It was just like you thought: he wanted to see what I could do
with a very difficult text within a short time. He was *very* impressed
when I said that it's not true pachuco but seems like an author who only
tries to imitate the caló used by them... After the exam (of course ;-)
I told him where my knowledge came from. He smiled and said, it was
clear that somebody had helped me... So, thank you very much again! I'll
never forget where my good mark came from!
Silvia
Tim
news:37BBA197...@rz.uni-sb.de...
> I learned in my Spanish lessons to pronounce the /b/ and /v/ equally, as
> a bilabial sound, but much softer than the normal /b/. Is it pronounced
> this way in Mexico? By the way: Mexican Spanish is a bit easier to
I was tought this way... b and v are more or less interchangeable, but each
can be pronounced in two slightly different ways, depending on the word.
There's a /b/ sound like the English b:
vamos = /b/amos
and also a /b/ sound that English does not have. Call that /B/. /B/ is
sort of a cross between the English b,v and w. Make a soft b sound with
your lips close to each other, but not touching like the English b. bibir
has two different b sounds:
bibir = /b/ /ee/ /B/ /ee/ /r/