Malaysia's court ruling: Allah is not exclusive to Islam
Ir. Hj. Othman bin Hj. Ahmad
of the Bible, its use is discrete and are not meant to mislead, unlike
in Malaysia.
Allah is substituted for Jesus when it should be just god. The bible
never uses the word Allah as a translation to God. Allah is not a
Malay word for God. The Malay word for God is Tuhan.
In Malay, Allah is meant to be the God of Muslims. Since the bible is
to be translated to Malaysian Malay, it must be translated according
to the normal rules of translation, not to mislead the readers.
Why on Earth should Christians in Malaysia want to use the word Allah
to describe God when the correct translation is Tuhan? Unless it is
attempting to mislead readers to consider that that Jesus is also the
god of the Malays, which is completely nonsense.
Just because Allah is not exclusive to Islam, does not mean that it
can be used without any just cause. Just because Koran is not
exclusive to Islam, does not mean that it can be used to translate the
word "Bible" into Koran in Malay. This is what it amounts to.
If the Christians want to translate the Bible to Malay, then use
proper Malay words and grammar. Usually poor Malay grammar and words
is an insult to the language and customs of the Malays and Muslims.
Use the correct word for God, i.e. Tuhan!!!
Malaysian court rules Catholic paper can use "Allah"
Royce Cheah
KUALA LUMPUR
Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:57am EST
Related News
School holidays in Malaysia, time for circumcision
Mon, Nov 23 2009
KUALA LUMPUR (Reuters) - A Malaysian court ruled on Thursday that a
Catholic newspaper can use "Allah" to describe God in a surprise
judgment that could allay worries about the erosion of minority rights
in the majority Muslim country.
WORLD
The High Court said it was the constitutional right for the Catholic
newspaper, the Herald, to use the word "Allah."
"Even though Islam is the federal religion, it does not empower the
respondents to prohibit the use of the word," said High Court judge
Lau Bee Lan.
Last January, Malaysia banned the use of the word "Allah" by
Christians, saying the use of the Arabic word might offend the
sensitivities of Muslims who make up 60 per cent of Malaysia's 28
million population.
Analysts say cases such as that involving the Herald worry Malaysian
Muslim activists and officials who see using the word Allah in
Christian publications including bibles as attempts to proselytize.
The Herald circulates in Sabah and Sarawak on Borneo Island where most
tribal people converted to Christianity more than a century ago.
In February, the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Kuala Lumpur Murphy
Pakiam, as publisher of the Herald, filed for a judicial review,
naming the Home Ministry and the government as respondents.
He had sought to declare that the decision by the respondents
prohibiting him from using the word "Allah" in the Herald was illegal
and that the word "Allah" was not exclusive to Islam.
The Home Minister's decision to ban the use of the word was illegal,
null and void, said Lau.
Lawyers representing the government said they would refer to the Home
Ministry on whether to appeal.
"It is a day of justice and we can say right now that we are citizens
of one nation," said Father Lawrence Andrew, the Herald's editor.
Christians -- including about 800,000 Catholics -- make up about 9.1
percent of Malaysia's population. Malays are by definition Muslims and
are not allowed to convert.
Malaysia was rated as having "very high" government restrictions on
religion in a recent survey by the Pew Forum, bracketing it with the
likes of Iran and Egypt and it was the 9th most restrictive of 198
countries.
Published since 1980, the Herald newspaper is printed in English,
Mandarin, Tamil and Malay. The Malay edition is mainly read by tribes
in the eastern states of Sabah and Sarawak on Borneo Island.
Ethnic Chinese and Indians, who are mainly Christians, Buddhists and
Hindus, have been upset by court rulings on conversions and other
religious disputes as well as demolitions of some Hindu temples.
(Editing by Nick Macfie)
Ir. Hj. Othman bin Hj. Ahmad
> On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 04:55:56 -0800 (PST), "Ir. Hj. Othman bin Hj.
>
> Ahmad" <othm...@lycos.com> wrote:
> >Even in Indonesia, where Allah is used sporadically in the translation
> >of the Bible, its use is discrete and are not meant to mislead, unlike
> >in Malaysia.
>
> >Allah is substituted for Jesus when it should be just god.
>
Because you are completely arrogant and ignorant.
>
> >The bible
> >never uses the word Allah as a translation to God. Allah is not a
> >Malay word for God. The Malay word for God is Tuhan.
> >In Malay, Allah is meant to be the God of Muslims.
>
> Which in Islamic theology is the God of Abraham and Jesus - the self
> same God.
That is the god in Islamic theology, but certainly not the Christian
theology.
In Christianity, Jesus is himself the God, which is completely
nonsense in the Malay meaning of the word
Allah.
Prehistoric Arab may have used the word Allah to refer to one
particular god, but Muslim Arabs have redefined the meaning of Allah
to be the one god, according to the Islamic theology.
There is no such confusion in Malay. Allah in Malay is the one god
according to the Islamic theology. There is no pre-Islamic Malay word
for Allah, let alone to describe a deity. Only tuhan(supreme god) or
dewa-dewa. So Allah in Malay is the God as defined in Islamic
theology, not any god or deity.
>
> > Since the bible is
> >to be translated to Malaysian Malay, it must be translated according
> >to the normal rules of translation, not to mislead the readers.
>
> As the bible is a sacred text to Muslims, that is hardly going to
> happen, is it?
What are you trying to imply? You must be abosolutely lying if you
think Muslims consider the current translated bible as SACRED.
Malay muslims respect the translated quran in similar manner to
translated bible, i.e. with cautions. Malay muslims only respect the
original quran in Arabic words despite not understanding many Arabic
words.
This is similar to most Muslims all over the world, even Arabs who may
not completely understand the Arabic words and phrases used in the
Quran.
Any quran, that is to be translated to modern Arabic will never be
respected.
And you expect Muslims to respect the current Bibles in various
translated forms and consider them as sacred?
You are a complete moron.
>
> >Why on Earth should Christians in Malaysia want to use the word Allah
> >to describe God when the correct translation is Tuhan? Unless it is
> >attempting to mislead readers to consider that that Jesus is also the
> >god of the Malays, which is completely nonsense.
>
> Well, you see, there was fellow called Muhammad, and his message was
> that the God of the Christians and the God of the Jews was called
> Allah.
So what you are saying is that Jesus is also the Allah of the Muslims?
Bloody misleading arrogant bastard.
Unless it is the bible of some cultish Christianity that thrive in
Indonesia but this is frowned upon by mainstream Christianity.
I have to agree that these christianity cults who abandon the trinity
concept, and returning to true monotheism, should be allowed to use
the word Allah, but certainly not the bible used by Catholics. This is
true even if they don't accept Muhammad as a prophet.
Catholics and almost all protestants that I can name, believe in the
trinity concept where Jesus(son), Father and (Holy Spirit) are three
separate entities of god, to be treated as one.
From Wikipedia, at the top of Google search list:
"Trinity teaches the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three
persons in one Godhead.[1] "
To use the word Allah for this "Godhead" is just preposterous. It
implies that Jesus is also Allah, which is alien to the Malays.
>
> Some people heeded his message, and today they are called muslims.
You do not understand Islam at all. No wonder you are not a Muslim.
If you accept the true Malay meaning of Allah, I am sure muslims will
call you a Muslim, despite you denying Muhamamd. Got it!!! You don't
have to be a follower of Muhamamd to be called a Muslim, in Islam.
Alas, you and the christians in Malaysia, want to mislead Malays, into
thinking that the trinity, i.e. Jesus, is compatible with the Malay's
Allah, instead of just Tuhan.
If you do not consider this as misleading, you just an arrogant
bastard.
>
> Perhaps you could find someone who knows something about Islam to
> explain this to you?
So you think you know more about Islam than I do? That you don't need
anybody who knows anything about Islam to explain Islamic fundamentals
to you?
>
> >Just because Allah is not exclusive to Islam, does not mean that it
> >can be used without any just cause. Just because Koran is not
> >exclusive to Islam, does not mean that it can be used to translate the
> >word "Bible" into Koran in Malay. This is what it amounts to.
>
> A reasonably educated Muslim should know better than this.
Yes, but you certainly isn't.
>
> >If the Christians want to translate the Bible to Malay, then use
> >proper Malay words and grammar. Usually poor Malay grammar and words
> >is an insult to the language and customs of the Malays and Muslims.
> >Use the correct word for God, i.e. Tuhan!!!
>
> That would be offensive to anyone who accepts that Muhammad was the
> messenger of God.
So you think Malays don't pray to "Tuhan"? Idiot bastard.
In fact, Malays pray to "Tuhan", not to Allah. Just read a few
prayers written in Malay for you to find out.
Allah is treated more like a name of a god, not the god entity itself.
Even Arabs use the word Ila, for God, not allah, and all muslims must
know how to distinguish between these two words, if not they are not
muslims.
Read the most important phrase in Islam: "La Ila ha ill allah"
Translated into English : No god except Allah.
Malay: Tiada Tuhan melainkan Allah.
Now tell me how can Christians in Malaysia be allowed to use the word
Allah for God when even Muslims use the word Tuhan to refer to God??
Unless they are trying to mislead the Malays about the trinity message
of Christianity.
Any honest person should be able to answer but you certainly are not
honest.
> --
> Cheers
> Paul Saccani
> Perth, Western Australia.
Ir. Hj. Othman bin Hj. Ahmad
> On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 06:46:28 -0800 (PST), "Ir. Hj. Othman bin Hj.
>
> Ahmad" <othm...@lycos.com> wrote:
> >On Dec 31, 9:43 pm, Paul Saccani <sacc...@omen.net.au> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 04:55:56 -0800 (PST), "Ir. Hj. Othman bin Hj.
>
> >> Ahmad" <othm...@lycos.com> wrote:
> >> >Even in Indonesia, where Allah is used sporadically in the translation
> >> >of the Bible, its use is discrete and are not meant to mislead, unlike
> >> >in Malaysia.
...
> At no time do the translations refer to Jesus as Allah.
You are lying. That is not the current established Christian theology.
To Christians, Jesus is GOD, as in the trinity.
These translations are done by these christians who believe that Jesus
is GOD.
I welcome our cultish christians in Indonesia who consider Jesus as
not God but not these catholics and protestants in Malaysia. They
still believe in the trinity and consider Jesus as GOD.
>
> Arab Muslims have no problem with Allah being in the Bible, perhaps
> you should learn from their example?
You are not translating the bible into Arab, but Malay, so respect the
Malay language and terms.
...
> >Any quran, that is to be translated to modern Arabic will never be
> >respected.
>
> Ah, so you could use it as toilet paper, could you?
Translated quran, YES. This is something that you should learn and
understand.
Even quran that is translated into Moderm Arabic, can be used as
Toilet paper, provided the original versus of the quran is not
present.
>
> >And you expect Muslims to respect the current Bibles in various
> >translated forms and consider them as sacred?
>
> I expect nothing - It is the expectation of Allah expressed in the
> Koran.
Despite your obvious ignorant, your arrogance still expects the same
respect for the current translated bible.
What do you think the "expectation of Allah expressed in the quran
about the current bible"?
With cautions, just as we respect any translation of the quran into
Malay or modern Arabic, i.e. also with cautions.
That is why it is paramount not to mislead readers in the use of the
world Allah as a direct translation of God, which is false in Malay
and Arabic.
God in Malay is Tuhan.
God in Arabic is Illah.
Allah is a name of a God, which is only applicable to Muslims and old
Arabs.
Why on earth should Malaysian christians want to translate God into
Allah??? When they are neither Arab or Muslim?
Unless they want to mislead the Malays.
This is what they did verbally in Indonesia leading so many christians
there to reinterpret Christianity to consider Jesus just as a prophet,
but they are not considered as the mainstream chrisitanity yet.
Hopefully, these christians who believe that Jesus is not GOD, will
become stronger, but I doubt it.
...
> Take it up with Mohammud - he spoke of the Christians and Jews of this
> time, and of the book of the time of his life. They are the same as
> the current ones.
Muhammad and quran spoke of different versions of Christianity.
Muhammad certainly didn't respect the bible and christianity then, as
Muslims are now.
Many christians in Muhammad's time converted to Islam.
>
> If it was good enough for Mohammud, who exactly are you to say that it
> is preposterous?
You don't even know who Muhamamd is to know if he approves of the old
christianity, let alone the current ones.
If you are not an arrogant bastard, who are you?
...
> Others, not coincidentally, pretend to follow his message, but in
> reality, twist it suit their own purposes.
It could be, but you certainly cannot determine who follow Muhammad's
teaching or not. You are not even a Muslim.
So why are saying with certainty? Unless you are such an arrogant
bastard.
...
> Just ask Abraham.... Why you, of all people, think that you always
> know more than everyone else is quite beyond me.
Why not? When I am talking about myself, my religion, my place and my
livelihood.
I certainly know more about myself than everyone else on earth.
With your case, you pretend to know more than myself about myself. How
can you ever know?
And yet, you still carry on, showing how arrogant you are.
>
> >Alas, you and the christians in Malaysia, want to mislead Malays, into
> >thinking that the trinity, i.e. Jesus, is compatible with the Malay's
> >Allah, instead of just Tuhan.
>
> Well, my empty headed friend, if you bothered to look at reality - the
> issue is simply one of importing bibles from Indonesia.
What reality? You should read the words that they used to put right in
front of me at Putatan shopping streets:
"Jesus is Tuhan Allah", or something like that.
They have changed the wordings the last few days that I was there.
The translated bibles in Indonesia don't use Allah as a translation of
God. Most cases it uses the word "tuhan", so I presume it is more of a
poor translation error. But this error is mitigated by the confusion
of the Malay speaking christians there.
...
> >In fact, Malays pray to "Tuhan", not to Allah.
>
> I just discussed your comment with the local Malay Imam - besides
> chuckling at your notion that Malays do not pray to Allah, the phrase
> "load of old cock" was uttered.
Depends on how you ask him. Why don't you read his prayers in Malay?
>
> > Just read a few
> >prayers written in Malay for you to find out.
>
> Most Malays pray in arabic - perhaps if you visit a mosque you might
> observe this.
Only in mosques. Outside the mosques and official functions, we use
both.
Even during friday prayers, Malays words are also used.
>
> >Allah is treated more like a name of a god, not the god entity itself.
>
> >Even Arabs use the word Ila, for God, not allah, and all muslims must
> >know how to distinguish between these two words, if not they are not
> >muslims.
>
> >Read the most important phrase in Islam: "La Ila ha ill allah"
>
> And yet Arab Muslims are quite content for Bibles to contain the word
> Allah.
How can you be so sure?
And it depends on what christianity. The coptic Arabs have a different
version of christianity. They may not even accept trinity.
...
nur
As exclaimed by Moses (pbuh): “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the
Lord is one.” Deuteronomy 6:4.
“I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God.”
Isaiah 45:5.
“You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for
yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the
earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them
or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God.”
Exodus 20:3-5
Christianity
Jesus Christ (pbuh) said the following in the Bible:
“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and
Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”
John 17:3
“How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you
do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?”
John 5:44
“The most important commandments,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O
Israel, the Lord our God, is one Lord’”
Mark 12:29
As described by Paul in his Letter to Timothy:
“Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor
and glory forever and ever. Amen.”
1 Timothy 1:17
Hinduism
“Ekam evadvitiyam“
(He (God) is One only without a second.)
Chandogya Upanishad 6:2:1
Meaning in English: “Sages (learned Priests) call one God by many
names.“
Rigveda 1:164:46
“Ma cid anyad vi sansata sakhayo ma rishanyata“
(O friends, do not worship anybody but Him, the Divine One. Praise Him
alone.)
Rigveda 8:1:1
“Ekam Brahm, dvitiya naste neh na naste kinchan“
(There is only one God, not the second; not at all, not at all, not in
the least bit.)
Brahma Sutra of Hinduism
Sikhism
“Ek Onkar, Sat Naam, Karta Purakh, Nirbhau Nirvair, Akal Murat, Ajuni,
Saibham, Gurprasad”
(There exists but one God, who is called The True, The Creator, Free
from fear and hate, Immortal, Not begotten, Self-Existent, Great and
Compassionate.)
Granth Sahib, Mulmantra Pg.1
Meaning in English: “There is only the One Supreme Lord God; there is
no other at all.”
Granth Sahib, Pg. 45
Meaning in English: “God is merciful and infinite. The One and Only is
all-pervading.”
Granth Sahib, Pg. 710
Clearly, the above verses from religious scriptures of Judaism,
Christianity, Hinduism and Sikhism, without a doubt, affirmed the
truth of the unity of God in the strongest of terms. It is very
important to also note that, like the relevant verses of the Qur’an,
many of the above verses are in the form of a statement that a father
would use to remind his child not to fall for something dangerous,
knowing fully well the child might just still fall for it! The child
for example, might later fall for drugs taking, assuring his father:
don’t worry dad, I only take it because it helps me, trust me!
So, with such amazing similarity on the concept of ‘Unity of God’
between all the above mentioned major world’s religions, what then
seems to be the difference between them? From a Muslim’s point of
view, the difference is in the ‘implementation’ of the concept in
one’s daily ‘religious life’ and in fact also ‘normal life’. It could
be that a certain scripture may state a certain principle ‘from the
sky’, but then falls short in defining the daily life (including
religious life) consequents of such principle. Worse still, things
become ‘neutralised’ when other parts of the same scripture state
principles in direct contradiction to the one ‘from the sky’.
Muslims also believe the Qur’an to be the only surviving verbatim
(word for word) Word of God, no more no less words. As such, there is
no vagueness or contradiction in it, especially with regard to
important matters of basic belief in God. In Islam, the concept of
‘Unity of God’ is very basic and central to the belief in God, to the
point, getting it even ‘very slightly wrong’ would render one’s
‘belief’ or ‘faith’ in God and religion, impotent, and in fact almost
completely meaningless. Understandably so, for what use is submission
and worship when it is directed to the wrong god? The great importance
of the doctrine of the Unity of God in Islam is well reflected in the
fact that in addition to being a constant reminder throughout the
Qur’an, a whole chapter of the Qur’an is dedicated to it – an
extremely brief (mere four short verses!) surah (chapter) number 112,
also known as Al-Ikhlas, meaning ‘Sincerity or Purity’:
Say: He is Allah, the One and only. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute. He
begets not, nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him.
Allah , your only god Allah , you are only allowed to have me as your only God , you are only authorised to have Allah as your only God .
n Dec 31 2009, 7:55 pm, "Ir. Hj. Othman bin Hj. Ahmad"
The Cynic
"nur" <arah...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:80ebc34d-af93-44bc...@b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
(rubbish deleted)
Muslims also believe the Qur�an to be the only surviving verbatim
(word for word) Word of God,
What is your evidence for this statement? Who is the witness?
... no more no less words.
................blah blah blah yakety yak
(rest flushed into toilet bowl)
tompel@tmnet.net.my mat tompel
should be Allah himself. So far he has said nothing. so fuck off you bunch
of fools!
"Allah , your only god Allah , you are only allowed to have me as your only
God , you are only authorised to have Allah as your only God ."
<voivo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c373cf4f-d3dc-4e75...@s3g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
Hatjman Hunsen , mafia Boss of Cambodia
n Jan 6, 6:26 pm, "mat tompel" <mat tom...@tmnet.net.my> wrote:
> If anyone who has the right to object to the use of the word Allah, it
> should be Allah himself. So far he has said nothing. so fuck off you bunch
> of fools!
> "Allah , your only god Allah , you are only allowed to have me as your only
> God , you are only authorised to have Allah as your only God ."<voivodv...@gmail.com> wrote in message