Must read If you hate "Arabs"...
Alfalfa
recently in Minnesota. For the full speech pls go to:
http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/execteam/speeches/fiorina/minnesota01.htm
"I'll end by telling a story.
There was once a civilization that was the greatest in the world.
It was able to create a continental super-state that stretched from
ocean to ocean, and from northern climes to tropics and deserts. Within its
dominion lived hundreds of millions of people, of different creeds and
ethnic origins.
One of its languages became the universal language of much of the
world, the bridge between the peoples of a hundred lands. Its armies were
made up of people of many nationalities, and its military protection allowed
a degree of peace and prosperity that had never been known. The reach of
this civilization's commerce extended from Latin America to China, and
everywhere in between.
And this civilization was driven more than anything, by invention. Its
architects designed buildings that defied gravity. Its mathematicians
created the algebra and algorithms that would enable the building of
computers, and the creation of encryption. Its doctors examined the human
body, and found new cures for disease. Its astronomers looked into the
heavens, named the stars, and paved the way for space travel and
exploration.
Its writers created thousands of stories. Stories of courage, romance
and magic. Its poets wrote of love, when others before them were too steeped
in fear to think of such things.
When other nations were afraid of ideas, this civilization thrived on
them, and kept them alive. When censors threatened to wipe out knowledge
from past civilizations, this civilization kept the knowledge alive, and
passed it on to others.
While modern Western civilization shares many of these traits, the
civilization I'm talking about was the Islamic world from the year 800 to
1600, which included the Ottoman Empire and the courts of Baghdad, Damascus
and Cairo, and enlightened rulers like Suleiman the Magnificent.
Although we are often unaware of our indebtedness to this other
civilization, its gifts are very much a part of our heritage. The technology
industry would not exist without the contributions of Arab mathematicians.
Sufi poet-philosophers like Rumi challenged our notions of self and truth.
Leaders like Suleiman contributed to our notions of tolerance and civic
leadership.
And perhaps we can learn a lesson from his example: It was leadership
based on meritocracy, not inheritance. It was leadership that harnessed the
full capabilities of a very diverse population-that included Christianity,
Islamic, and Jewish traditions.
This kind of enlightened leadership - leadership that nurtured
culture, sustainability, diversity and courage - led to 800 years of
invention and prosperity.
In dark and serious times like this, we must affirm our commitment to
building societies and institutions that aspire to this kind of greatness.
More than ever, we must focus on the importance of leadership- bold acts of
leadership and decidedly personal acts of leadership.
With that, I'd like to open up the conversation and see what we,
collectively, believe about the role of leadership."
--
"An Eye For An Eye Will Make The Whole World Blind"
---Mahatma Ghandi
"Religion is the opium of the people" --- Karl Marx
Albert Reingewirtz
"Alfalfa" <pawnp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
So? That Arabs had a great culture while Europe existed in a dark age of
a thousand years because of Christianity is not in doubt and well known.
What people like me who know how great Arab cultuyre has been then and
can see where Arab culture is today brings the question: Why? Why has
Arab culture descended into an Arab dark ages of it's own? Is it because
Muslims became more and more fanatics like the Christians were creating
the dark ages?
>
> --
> "An Eye For An Eye Will Make The Whole World Blind"
> ---Mahatma Ghandi
> "Religion is the opium of the people" --- Karl Marx
>
Those who can't think quote" Albert Reingewirtz, 2001"
Superfluous addresses not deleted for an answer to my question
AnonEMoose
> Part of a speech Hewlett Packard's CEO Ms. Carly Fiorina
> There was once a civilization that was the greatest in the world.
> It was able to create a continental super-state that stretched from
> ocean to ocean, and from northern climes to tropics and deserts.
> Within its dominion lived hundreds of millions of people, of
> different creeds and ethnic origins. Its armies were made up of
> people of many nationalities, and its military protection allowed a
> degree of peace and prosperity that had never been known. And this
> civilization was driven more than anything, by invention. Its
> architects designed buildings that defied gravity. Its
> mathematicians created the algebra and algorithms that would enable
> the building of computers, and the creation of encryption. Its
> doctors examined the human body, and found new cures for disease.
> Its astronomers looked into the heavens, named the stars, and paved
> the way for space travel and exploration. Its writers created
> thousands of stories. Stories of courage, romance and magic. Its
> poets wrote of love, when others before them were too steeped in
> fear to think of such things. When other nations were afraid of
> ideas, this civilization thrived on them, and kept them alive. When
> censors threatened to wipe out knowledge from past civilizations,
> this civilization kept the knowledge alive, and passed it on to
> others. While modern Western civilization shares many of these
> traits, the civilization I'm talking about was the Islamic world
> from the year 800 to
Most of this is true, but what have the Arabs done along these lines
in the last 750 years? Not a whole lot, from what I can see.
So not to be too crude, but what have you done lately in the way of
contributing to civilation?
> Although we are often unaware of our indebtedness to this other
> civilization, its gifts are very much a part of our heritage. The
> technology industry would not exist without the contributions of
> Arab mathematicians. Sufi poet-philosophers like Rumi challenged
> our notions of self and truth.
The "West" (i.e. Latin Christendom) was very strongly influenced and
enriched by Arabic civilzation around 1000 A.D. - 1200 A.D., but this
was pretty much a one-time cultural infusion. Western civilization
has constantly gone back to its sources in classical (Greek and Latin)
culture to renew itself, and has constantly referred back to the
(Hebrew and Greek) Bible as a source of its civilization, but it doesn't
continually refer back to Avicenna etc. in any similar way -- the
1000 A.D. - 1200 A.D. event was a one-shot time-limited affair which
has not formed a true continuing and enduring influence on Western
civilization.
P.S. I've excised the parts which pay tribute to the Ottoman Empire's
supposed "civic leadership". Not sure what that's supposed to mean,
unless you consider brutal militarism, imperial colonial conquests,
and stultifying oppression to be "civic leadership".
Racists___Religions
1.Church is "two bodies, one Black Christian, one white
Christian-separate and divided.
2.Sudras (Untouchables Hindus)
Hindu Church is "two bodies, one Brahmin Hindu , one Untouchable Hindu
separate and divided.
The holocaust was sponsored by "Christians".
American slavery was "justified" by "Christians".
Please visit:
Sudras (Untouchables Hindus) Holocaust Museum
http://www.dalitstan.org/holocaust/
Fight White Power
Fight Brahmin Hindu Power
Fight Imperialism
Fight Racism
Tony Lew
> recently in Minnesota. For the full speech pls go to:
>
> http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/execteam/speeches/fiorina/minnesota01.htm
>
> "I'll end by telling a story.
>
> There was once a civilization that was the greatest in the world.
>
?!?!
This sentence alone proves she doesn't know what she's talking about.
No wonder she's driven HP into the ground.
Tiger dudes
was a noble man but look at me now, I AM REPLAYING TO THIS SHIT.
On Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:41:47 -0400, "Alfalfa" <pawnp...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Sandar
>
> The "West" (i.e. Latin Christendom) was very strongly influenced and
> enriched by Arabic civilzation around 1000 A.D. - 1200 A.D., but this
> was pretty much a one-time cultural infusion. Western civilization
> has constantly gone back to its sources in classical (Greek and Latin)
> culture to renew itself, and has constantly referred back to the
> (Hebrew and Greek) Bible as a source of its civilization, but it doesn't
> continually refer back to Avicenna etc. in any similar way -- the
> 1000 A.D. - 1200 A.D. event was a one-shot time-limited affair which
> has not formed a true continuing and enduring influence on Western
> civilization.
How would western civilization have been able to go to to its source
if the MUSLIM civilization didn't preserve those? Don't you know that
those knowledge would have disappeared if it were not for the Islmic
civilization.
Sigh...
Joseph Hertzlinger
wrote:
>Part of a speech Hewlett Packard's CEO Ms. Carly Fiorina have
>delivered recently in Minnesota. For the full speech pls go to:
>
>http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/execteam/speeches/fiorina/minnesota01.htm
> While modern Western civilization shares many of these traits,
>the civilization I'm talking about was the Islamic world from the
>year 800 to 1600, which included the Ottoman Empire and the courts of
>Baghdad, Damascus and Cairo, and enlightened rulers like Suleiman the
>Magnificent.
There you have it. Western Civilization is the true heir of the
Caliphate and Moslems should get on board.
Gandhi was right. Western Civilization (now that we have it) is a good
idea.
ivan markose
Those civilisations were lingering around till islam kicked them
to death. Of course we still have to be grateful to islam for preserving
some learning. Better than nothing I guess.
ivan markose
"Sandar" <mip...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5dc0f156.01102...@posting.google.com...
> anone...@usa.net (AnonEMoose) wrote in message
news:<49722718.0110...@posting.google.com>...
> >
> How would western civilization have been able to go to to its source
Tony Lew
Hey, are you related to the Mariner Moose or Marty Moose?
Péman
brought to us from the muslim mathematicians. Obviously you have no idea
what you are talking of. By the way computers run on the binary concept of
1s and yes 0s.
"Tony Lew" <rosesc...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5c7896da.0110...@posting.google.com...
Alfalfa
race is not an evil lot. They are illuminated and many of their luminaries
are in fact contributing until this day to our success as a modern
industrialized civilization. To my knowledge, many of these scientists and
researchers work for NASA, American and other Western universities plus many
Top 500 companies world wide.
The bottom line is that it is getting a bit boring to read posts that show
ignorance of the facts. It would be much better if we restrict ourselves to
discussing the causes and effects of terrorism in a more rational way, and
base our discussions on some unbiased research, i.e. U.N. archives on the
web.
--
"An Eye For An Eye Will Make The Whole World Blind"
---Mahatma Ghandi
"Religion is the opium of the people" --- Karl Marx
"Alfalfa" <pawnp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:%WXA7.7361$v21.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Herman Rubin
>> > http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/execteam/speeches/fiorina/minnesota01.htm
Which concept of zero? The Muslims did not invent the
"Arabic numerals", but just transmitted them from India,
and they do not add one bit to MATHEMATICS. The methods
of computation before Arabic numerals are not that much
slower. BTW, many believe that the Hindu use of the zero
SYMBOL came from the earlier Mesopotamian use of it in
their base 60 arithmetic, going back more than 5000 years,
and not lost.
As for algebra, at most the Muslims transmitted the works
of Diophantus and the Greeks. It is true that our words
"algorithm" and "algebra" come from the name al-Khwarizmi
and the Arabic "al jabr", meaning the magnitude, but I do
not see these as contributions. The algorithm which
gave it the name was that, if one has a single linear
equation in one variable, then one puts all the terms
with the variable on one side, and the constant terms on
the other, and divides. I doubt that any of the Greeks
using variables as invented by Diophantus needed this
crutch to enable them to figure out what to do.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
hru...@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
AnonEMoose
The Muslim world certainly preserved many originally Greek-language
works, and added to them some philosophy and a little science of its
own, much of which was then transmitted to Latin Christendom (usually
by being translated from Arabic into Latin in Spain ca. the twelfth
century), and which taken together added up to an important influence
on Latin Christendom ca. 1200 A.D. However, the Arabic world had
preserved few Greek literary works or histories, and hardly any
originally Latin-language works, and Latin Christendom (the "West")
certainly did not depend on the Arabs for its knowledge of the Bible.
As I've said, the Arabic influence was very important in the 13th
century A.D., but by the 15th century, the Italians were reading Greek
works in the original Greek, so that Latin translations of Arabic
translations of Greek works (sometimes with a Syriac-language
translation step in there too) were now considered much less
authoritative -- and anyway, the Italians were now very interested in
Greek literary works which the Arabs had not seen fit to preserve.
Also, the philosophy that had been borrowed from the Muslim world
began to seem outdated and "scholastic" in the Renaissance, and the
Western world soon surpassed and left far behind the Greek and Arabic
science that it had inherited. What all this means is that although a
few modern Western scientific terms (such as "algebra", "algorithm",
and the names of some 2nd and 3rd magnitude stars) are taken from
Arabic words, the medieval Arabic/Muslim influence is not really a
true enduring source of Western civilization (in the sense that
Greek/Roman classical civilization and the Bible are). Until a little
more than 50 years ago, almost anybody who got a "gentlemanly" or
solidly middle-class education in Western countries was bound to have
been taught some Latin (and to know "Gallia est omnis divisa in partes
tres, quarum unam incolunt Belgae..."), and of course many Westerners
have turned to the Bible in all ages -- but only a few specialists
have read much Arabic literature. You can see this if you look at
Mortimer Adler's list of "Great Books" -- Mortimer Adler himself was
somewhat pretentious, and the Great Books weren't neceessarily selected
objectively (if there even is such a thing as being "objective" in
cases like this, which I rather doubt), but the Great Books is a
convenient list of what a semi-traditionalist might think were the
historical works that have had a continuing and enduring relevance to
modern Western civilization. So if you go to a URL such as
http://www.literarycritic.com/adler.htm , the Bible is there, and
so are plenty of Greek and Latin works, but you won't find any Arabic
or Islamic books.
--
E-mail is defunct.
Tony Lew
> FYI, the concept of zero and algebra are some of the things that were
> brought to us from the muslim mathematicians. Obviously you have no idea
> what you are talking of. By the way computers run on the binary concept of
> 1s and yes 0s.
Which ARAB mathematician brought us these marvels? Was it the
Arab al-Khwarizmi? The Arab al-Khayyami? Or was it the Arab al-Biruni?
AnonEMoose
> The purpose of the post is clear. What is known is that Arabs as a
> Semitic race is not an evil lot.
You're trying to set yourself up as some kind of authority to combat
ignorance, and you go around talking about the "Semitic race"????
"Semitic" is a technical linguistic term, which only applies to strictly
linguistic matters; and it's also found in the term "anti-Semitic", which
is a 19th-century genteel and ultra-polite Victorian drawing-room euphemism
for "Jew-hating". Outside of these two contexts, "Semitic" basically has
no meaning whatsoever, and should be completely avoided (W. Robertson Smith
got away with it, but I know something about W. Robertson Smith, and I can
already tell that you're no W. Robertson Smith).
> It would be much better if we restrict ourselves to discussing the
> causes and effects of terrorism in a more rational way, and base our
> discussions on some unbiased research, i.e. U.N. archives on the
> web. WWW.UN.ORG
Yeah right, the same U.N. which recently held the "Conference For the
Promotion and Promulgation of Racism and Anti-Semitism" in Durban, and
which has indulged in so much blatant bigotry and raw hatred and calls
for the complete and utter elimination of Israel over the years, that
it has rendered itself completely incapable of acting as any kind of
credible neutral mediator or honest arbitrator in the Israeli-Arab
conflict. The current "Oslo" peace process got formally underway with
a meeting of about two seconds in Madrid to give a superficial veneer
and facade of U.N. participation in the peace process -- then when the
two seconds were over, then the U.N. was dumped over the side as far as
participation in Israeli-Palestinian peace talks goes.
Guray Acar
Tony Lew wrote:
>
> "P?an" <major...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<9r45l0$nu4$1...@slb5.atl.mindspring.net>...
> > FYI, the concept of zero and algebra are some of the things that were
> > brought to us from the muslim mathematicians. Obviously you have no idea
> > what you are talking of. By the way computers run on the binary concept of
> > 1s and yes 0s.
>
> Which ARAB mathematician brought us these marvels? Was it the
> Arab al-Khwarizmi? The Arab al-Khayyami? Or was it the Arab al-Biruni?
I assume he was Al-Cabir... In any case, all those scientists
you mention above (whatever their origin is) flourished in the
region ruled by Arabs in those days ..
Duchess
<major...@hotmail.com> writes:
>FYI, the concept of zero and algebra are some of the things that were
>brought to us from the muslim mathematicians.
They have been around long before the arabs.
(\ ~ /) Liz "Duchess"
( \O/ ) Aris...@aol.com
/ " \
/ \"Angels take themselves lightly
~~~~~ That's why they have wing"
Caroline
after you understand it, you may enlighten us with your posts.
Caroline
"Duchess" <aris...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011026155111...@nso-fi.aol.com...
DeepBlue
these concepts may or may not have been before the Arabs. But it was due to
the Arabs that we speak of Algebra as a discipline and of a zero as a usable
and useful concept in Mathematics.
The same goes with the Greeks. Many of their ancient philosophy was there
before them. But we hardly try to descredit them by saying "they have been
around before the Greeks."
DeepBlue
"Duchess" <aris...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011026155111...@nso-fi.aol.com...
Joseph Mouhanna
I thought that the concept of zero was independently developed by the
Hindus, Baylonians and the Maya as a clear and useful concept.
--
The opinions expressed in this message are my own and not those of my
employer's
"DeepBlue" <Deep...@DeepBlue.org> wrote in message
news:ttjjt56...@corp.supernews.com...
DeepBlue
independently. But I do not see anywhere that Astromony started with the
Mesopotamians? Star maps were useful for the ancient Mesopotamians. But it
did not make for Astronomoy.
But makes something useful and leaves its mark is when it is seen in a
general scientific picture. The Zero is useful in this case because it was
integrated along with bits and pieces of what the indians were up to into
the general science of Algebra.
Or is it that you are trying to needlessly argue with me for the sake of
argument. Which makes you a sophist. And I do not like to argue with
sophists.
BeepBlue
"Joseph Mouhanna" <josephmo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ibwD7.239$Ji3....@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net...
Joseph Mouhanna
to it than that, and that it's not possible to take a snapshot in time and
point to a particular achievement as one people's (or person's) achievement.
Civilizations and people build on each other's work. If you did not the
works of those who preceded you in AI, you would not be nowhere in your
field. I also don't know if you know the meaning of sophism, because if you
do, you would not have used it to describe me. From the Encyclopedia
Britannica: "A question still discussed is whether the Sophists in general
had any real regard for truth or whether they taught their pupils that truth
was unimportant compared with success in argument.", and from the same
Encyclopedia: "The Sophists have sometimes been characterized by their
attacks on the traditional religious beliefs of the Greeks", sounds familiar
ya Walid? :-)
You can take what I say for its face value, or you can dig into it for signs
of conspiracy, that's up to you...
--
The opinions expressed in this message are my own and not those of my
employer's
"DeepBlue" <Deep...@DeepBlue.org> wrote in message
news:tttbe3l...@corp.supernews.com...
DeepBlue
> I know what you're saying, and what I'm pointing out is that there is more
> to it than that, and that it's not possible to take a snapshot in time and
> point to a particular achievement as one people's (or person's)
achievement.
> Civilizations and people build on each other's work. If you did not the
> works of those who preceded you in AI, you would not be nowhere in your
> field.
I totally agree with you on this one.
> I also don't know if you know the meaning of sophism, because if you
> do, you would not have used it to describe me. From the Encyclopedia
> Britannica: "A question still discussed is whether the Sophists in general
> had any real regard for truth or whether they taught their pupils that
truth
> was unimportant compared with success in argument.",
I used it in this sense :-) Joseph the Sophist only cares about success in
argument not the Truth :O
DeepBlue
Joseph Mouhanna
The opinions expressed in this message are my own and not those of my
employer's
"DeepBlue" <Deep...@DeepBlue.org> wrote in message
[.............]
> > I also don't know if you know the meaning of sophism, because if you
> > do, you would not have used it to describe me. From the Encyclopedia
> > Britannica: "A question still discussed is whether the Sophists in
general
> > had any real regard for truth or whether they taught their pupils that
> truth
> > was unimportant compared with success in argument.",
>
> I used it in this sense :-) Joseph the Sophist only cares about success
in
> argument not the Truth :O
This would of course be an argument not supported by facts, as I always
insist on supporting stories with references and facts.
> DeepBlue
DeepBlue
living. As Aristotle would say. That is if you know who the guy is.
And no, he is not a member of Al-Qaida or an associate of bin Laden.
Take a hike man. You and your facts that is.
DeepBlue
Joseph Mouhanna
The opinions expressed in this message are my own and not those of my
employer's
"DeepBlue" <Deep...@DeepBlue.org> wrote in message
news:tu00npg...@corp.supernews.com...
Aristotle, hmmm. The name does not sound Afghani or Arab. Is he a scholar of
some type? perhaps some pillar of civilization? because if that's the case,
the Taliban, A-Qaida or bin Laden would certainly have destroyed him if he
attempted to join, just as they bombed traces of other civilizations, and
ban education, television, and anything that does not conform to their
views. Just checking.
Verifiable facts are what separates urban legend from propaganda, rhetoric
and conspiracy theories. Why does this facts stuff bother you so much? is it
because you can't provide any?
> DeepBlue
DeepBlue
> --
>
> Verifiable facts are what separates urban legend from propaganda, rhetoric
> and conspiracy theories. Why does this facts stuff bother you so much? is
it
> because you can't provide any?
>
total political bankruptcy behind boring conceptions of factual data.
Ya3nee, you should get in touch with your feminine side sometimes. You
remind me of myself years and years ago when I used to be so serious and
into total facts. Only to discover years after that what a total bore I was
and how insecure I was for hiding behind a facade of facts. Anyone can read
facts. Anyone can check facts. You know, man does not live by bread alone.
But even then, quit hiding behind your blindness. You got all the facts
that you need. But you are a frigid, rigid bore. You are **afraid** of the
facts that bother your world view. Because you too have your own agenda and
propaganda and you hide it like a dog who hides its bone in a yard. Then
you scream: Facts, Facts. Do not you think everyone has noticed how
insecure you are because you are always screaming FACTS, FACTS!
DeepBlue
Joseph Mouhanna
The opinions expressed in this message are my own and not those of my
employer's
"DeepBlue" <Deep...@DeepBlue.org> wrote in message
news:tu0673p...@corp.supernews.com...
You have some way with words. Life is not all about facts, but facts do
serve a purpose. This is especially true when wild accusations fly. Here's
another fact for you: if you were (by your own admission) a bore, it does
not make you a personality expert, and does not make you an expert on
identifying bores. BTW, I will start believing your facts just as soon as
you post any. (hint: start posting references to verify your stories).
Here's an example: I said that the ADC is not doing itself or the Arab cause
any favors by appearing to be so religiously slanted. Your knee-jerk
reaction was to hint that I am a sectarian for pointing it out, and you were
so sure that the ADC is focused only on American issues. I posted proof to
the contrary, and never heard back from you on that one. If something so
obvious can escape you, you have to question how looking for your sources in
only one area may cloud your vision. As a former member of the ADC, my post
was a reminder to the membership who happen to read SCL how I felt about how
the ADC is handling itself. Plain and simple.
PS: this dog hiding a bone metaphor or yours makes no sense.
> DeepBlue
DeepBlue
>
> You have some way with words. Life is not all about facts, but facts do
> serve a purpose. This is especially true when wild accusations fly. Here's
> another fact for you: if you were (by your own admission) a bore, it does
> not make you a personality expert, and does not make you an expert on
> identifying bores. BTW, I will start believing your facts just as soon as
> you post any. (hint: start posting references to verify your stories).
> Here's an example: I said that the ADC is not doing itself or the Arab
cause
> any favors by appearing to be so religiously slanted.
>Your knee-jerk
> reaction was to hint that I am a sectarian for pointing it out,
Not really, but you chose to see it as such. I know from your postings that
you have no religoius slant.
>and you were
> so sure that the ADC is focused only on American issues.
American-Arab is more like it.
>I posted proof to
> the contrary, and never heard back from you on that one.
You stated an opinion and I stated another opinion. And that was the end of
it for me. It is not a subject that I feel strongly enough about to
continue discussing.
>As a former member of the ADC, my post
> was a reminder to the membership who happen to read SCL how I felt about
how
> the ADC is handling itself. Plain and simple.
>
I am a former member also, but I left for other reasons. And I do not like
how the ADC is handling itself. But I did not think that they have a
particular religous slant in the way they handle issues.
> PS: this dog hiding a bone metaphor or yours makes no sense.
>
The bone is the agenda then you start crying FACTS.
DeepBlue/Walid
Nicholas Totoro
<<As a former member of the ADC, my post was a reminder to the membership
who happen to read SCL how I felt about how the ADC is handling itself. Plain
and simple.>>
I'm sorry if I'm either a bit naive or just plain wrong, but doesn't the
ADC have a religious slant to *everything* regardless their explanations? Not
even issues affecting Americans. They have always struck me that way, to the
point that I took myself off their mailing list out of frustration. They have
absolutely nothing to say in reference to Christians and their plights in the
ME and even side with Muslims who aren't Arabs over their own brothers if they
are Christian on many issues.
Pardon me again if I'm wrong, but I am Lebanese and Sicilian and the
Sicilian part of me always tells me to never take sides against the family.
Nick
--
"Leave the gun... take the cannollis" Peter Clemenza, "The Godfather"
Joseph Mouhanna
The opinions expressed in this message are my own and not those of my
employer's
"DeepBlue" <Deep...@DeepBlue.org> wrote in message
news:tu08g2n...@corp.supernews.com...
[......................]
> You stated an opinion and I stated another opinion. And that was the end
of
> it for me. It is not a subject that I feel strongly enough about to
> continue discussing.
Actually, what I posted was a numerical analysis of the press activities of
the ADC. I wanted to make sure that I am not influenced by any personal
opinions.
> >As a former member of the ADC, my post
> > was a reminder to the membership who happen to read SCL how I felt about
> how
> > the ADC is handling itself. Plain and simple.
> >
> I am a former member also, but I left for other reasons. And I do not
like
> how the ADC is handling itself. But I did not think that they have a
> particular religous slant in the way they handle issues.
It's the perception of having a religious slant that's at issue, not the
fact. I know why the president was at the time. Perception is 9/10ths of
reality.
> > PS: this dog hiding a bone metaphor or yours makes no sense.
> >
> The bone is the agenda then you start crying FACTS.
Verifiable facts are what separates urban legend and tall tales from real
stuff. If you want to help your argument, then support it with something
other than one-sided opinions (not necessarily yours, but others). This
believe or not, will help project you as someone who's goal is to reach
solutions, and not someone who's hell-bent on making his point, the truth be
damned. Life is not all about facts, but some topics require it, else they
will appear to fall under propaganda.
> DeepBlue/Walid
DeepBlue
"Nicholas Totoro" <nto...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3BE0238F...@mindspring.com...
> Joseph Mouhanna wrote...
>
> <<As a former member of the ADC, my post was a reminder to the
membership
> who happen to read SCL how I felt about how the ADC is handling itself.
Plain
> and simple.>>
>
> absolutely nothing to say in reference to Christians and their plights in
the
> ME
Two points:
1. On a political level, the plight of Christians in ME is no different
from the plight of Moslems in the ME.
In other words, there is no particular religious so-called plight in the ME.
The bad situation affects all, and reform serves both Christians and
Moslems.
2. ADC is NOT an Arab organization. It is an American-Arab organization.
>and even side with Muslims who aren't Arabs over their own brothers if
they
> are Christian on many issues.
Care to give some exmaples here?
> Pardon me again if I'm wrong, but I am Lebanese and Sicilian and the
> Sicilian part of me always tells me to never take sides against the
family.
What family?
> Nick
>
> --
> "Leave the gun... take the cannollis" Peter Clemenza, "The Godfather"
Are you this impresses by Mafia violence to the point of quoting this? How
come then you talk of human rights and ADC? Do not you think that defending
human rights is not exactly about tribla and family politics?
DeepBlue
Nicholas Totoro
<<1. On a political level, the plight of Christians in ME is no different
from the plight of Moslems in the ME. In other words, there is no particular
religious so-called plight in the ME. The bad situation affects all, and reform
serves both Christians and Moslems.>>
I realize this, however this is not the way the ADC words press releases.
The wordings are almost always primarily of Muslim concern when religion is
mentioned at all. Just take a look at their press release page. If they are an
organization for Americans of Arab extraction, then why do they have Persian
art exhibits at the yearly symposium? Why do they call specify issues as both
Arab-American and Muslim-American when their concern *should* be for
Arab-Americans of all religions?
<<2. ADC is NOT an Arab organization. It is an American-Arab
organization.>>
Please remind them of this when they issue press releases about the
bombings in Afghanistan or the Intifada. These things aren't affecting to
Arab-Americans directly.
<<Care to give some exmaples here?>>
Again, at their yearly Symposium, Christian thought is almost dead. The
only thing you'll see from Christians is when they have a speaker like Ralph
Nader or someone else equally as irrelevant they can drag out. Either stay away
from religious causes at all or involve them all. Where do you see them getting
leaders from the various Orthodox or Coptic Churches with them to speak to the
president. They did have "Muslum leaders" with them, as noted in a few of their
press releases.
Then again, shouldn't Arab-American leaders be enough to not have to
specifiy Muslim leaders. A Christian named Jameel or Tofiq may as well be as
Muslim as far as a racist is concerned in this country.
<<What family?>>
The ethnic family, in this sense. Unfortunately, religion has a funny way
of breaking up families.
<<Are you this impresses by Mafia violence to the point of quoting this?
How come then you talk of human rights and ADC? Do not you think that
defending human rights is not exactly about tribal and family politics?>>
I'm not glorifying violence. That quote symbolizes that sometimes life
hits you in bad ways when you least expect it and things aren't always
personal, regardless how bad they are.
BM
In article <3BE02A8C...@mindspring.com>,
Nicholas Totoro <nto...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>If they are an
>organization for Americans of Arab extraction, then why do they have Persian
>art exhibits at the yearly symposium?
Because Persian is written in Arabic script? :-)
> Please remind them of this when they issue press releases about the
>bombings in Afghanistan or the Intifada. These things aren't affecting to
>Arab-Americans directly.
Hm.. not here in NY. There is an Arab NY mailing list. I encourage you to
join it. 90% of its submissions of late is either related to Afghanistan
or the Intifada. ADC is reflecting the Arab American street. The Arab
American street is attached to its roots and hurts when the roots hurt.
Hurt know no religion.
> Again, at their yearly Symposium, Christian thought is almost dead. The
>only thing you'll see from Christians is when they have a speaker like Ralph
>Nader or someone else equally as irrelevant they can drag out.
Interesting.. in all the times I've seen Nader speak, never did I hear him
label himself with a religious color.
bassem.. Half Lebanese half Martian
Jason Nasr
A very well written response to Deepblue's hateful, anonymous crap.
I'll say it again. His partisanship reaches the point of mental imbalance.
--Jason
Joseph Mouhanna
Nick,
It's not about Christians either. The ADC needs to examine its
methods. While I know a number of people there, and I know that they
do not intend to advance a particular religious agenda, the ADC's
methods are producing the opposite effect.
--Joseph
Joseph Mouhanna
The opinions expressed in this message are my own and not those of my
employer's
"Nicholas Totoro" <nto...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3BE02A8C...@mindspring.com...
[...........]
>
> <<2. ADC is NOT an Arab organization. It is an American-Arab
> organization.>>
>
> Please remind them of this when they issue press releases about the
> bombings in Afghanistan or the Intifada. These things aren't affecting to
> Arab-Americans directly.
Nick,
The events in Afghanistan and Palestine do have a direct effect on the Arab
community, but that's not what I was talking about.
Nicholas Totoro
<<Interesting.. in all the times I've seen Nader speak, never did I hear
him label himself with a religious color.>>
I apologize Bassem... maybe I should have made that more clear. I feel they
get someone like him to speak, even if he is agnostic or aetheist, simply as the
token Christian by label simply because he is not a Muslim and to prevent them
from being labeled as a Muslim organization. Joseph's point is they are not on
paper, but they fail to convey that message in their practices, which I
understand fully.
DeepBlue
> BM wrote...
>
> <<Interesting.. in all the times I've seen Nader speak, never did I
hear
> him label himself with a religious color.>>
>
> I apologize Bassem... maybe I should have made that more clear. I
feel they
> get someone like him to speak, even if he is agnostic or aetheist, simply
as the
> token Christian by label simply because he is not a Muslim and to prevent
them
> from being labeled as a Muslim organization. Joseph's point is they are
not on
> paper, but they fail to convey that message in their practices, which I
> understand fully.
This is getting to be rediculious. Where do you get this information from?
Very secterian mentality get you into such absurd grounds.
DeepBlue
DeepBlue
> DeepBlue wrote...
>
> <<1. On a political level, the plight of Christians in ME is no
different
> from the plight of Moslems in the ME. In other words, there is no
particular
> religious so-called plight in the ME. The bad situation affects all, and
reform
> serves both Christians and Moslems.>>
>
> I realize this, however this is not the way the ADC words press
releases.
> The wordings are almost always primarily of Muslim concern when religion
is
> mentioned at all. Just take a look at their press release page. If they
are an
> organization for Americans of Arab extraction, then why do they have
Persian
> art exhibits at the yearly symposium?
Assume they have a French Arts exhibit, would it bother you this much? And
what does a Persian Arts exhibit have to do with this issue, and what do you
have exactly against a Persian Arts exhibit?
>Why do they call specify issues as both
> Arab-American and Muslim-American when their concern *should* be for
> Arab-Americans of all religions?
But their concern have been American-Arabs of all religions. I personally
know most of the ADC board here and they are all Chrisitians. But they
leave their religion out of the door.
>
> <<2. ADC is NOT an Arab organization. It is an American-Arab
> organization.>>
>
> Please remind them of this when they issue press releases about the
> bombings in Afghanistan or the Intifada. These things aren't affecting to
> Arab-Americans directly.
>
These things have an effect as they directly influence the American-Arab
street. And what is it exactly that you have agaisnt ADC talking about the
intifada? Does not USA bankroll Israel in killing Palestinians civilians?
And do not you think it is the job of **every** person to talk of
Palestinian rights specially when it relates to the USA?
> <<Care to give some exmaples here?>>
>
> Again, at their yearly Symposium, Christian thought is almost dead.
What Christian thought are you talking about and who told you that the ADC
is geared for little religious shops of thought?
>The
> only thing you'll see from Christians is when they have a speaker like
Ralph
> Nader or someone else equally as irrelevant they can drag out.
Ralph Nader does not run for any Christian party and he does not represent
any Christian organization. And when he is invited he is invited for what
he represents. Are you saying that you care for Nader just because he is
Christian? And that ADC should take a roll from now on to see how many
Moslems and Christians are represented? And are you saying that will make
for a better ADC? A religious organization? I am just trying to follow
your thoughts here.
DeepBlue
Joseph Mouhanna
in because his ancestry is Lebanese. His family by the way is never
reluctant to participate in American-Lebanese events. The leadership of the
ADC has many Christians in its ranks, so the issue is not whether or not the
ADC is sectarian, it's that the PR and the way they present things, projects
an image that may shift the focus from discrimination against Arabs, to
religion. I post my views on SCL, because I know that there are ADC members
among the readership, and they in turn may be able to do something about it.
Even the Lebanese or Christians who do not consider themselves Arab must
support efforts to identify and stop discrimination against Americans of
Arab lineage.
You can do a google search on posts done by me (Joseph Mouhanna), and have
the word ADC in them, in soc.culture.Lebanon (within the past couple of
months). I posted an analysis of the ADC press activity.
--
The opinions expressed in this message are my own and not those of my
employer's
"Nicholas Totoro" <nto...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3BE15400...@mindspring.com...
Nicholas Totoro
<<Assume they have a French Arts exhibit, would it bother you this much?
And what does a Persian Arts exhibit have to do with this issue, and what do
you have exactly against a Persian Arts exhibit?>>
I have nothing against French or Persian art at all, but they do not
belong at a symposium for an *Arab-American* organization. Most of the art
present was Muslim in nature with many references to God and religion, none of
it Christian and not of it Arab-American.
<<But their concern have been American-Arabs of all religions. I
personally know most of the ADC board here and they are all Chrisitians. But
they leave their religion out of the door.>>
If that is their desire, then they need to work more at their public
relations. They have come across as a Muslim organization on more than one
occasion. I live in the DC suburbs. Even my Aunt, who lives in the District,
wants nothing to do with them because she has been under the impression they
are a Muslim organization. How can someone active in the community have that
impression if the ADC is not miserably failing at achieving what they claim is
their goal... to be an Arab-American organization equal for Christians as well
as Muslims.
<<These things have an effect as they directly influence the American-Arab
street. And what is it exactly that you have agaisnt ADC talking about the
intifada?>>
I have no issue with their discussion about it, but then they cease to be
an Arab-American orgainzation when they focus on world issues. They need to
focus less on what is happening in the ME and continue to focus more heavily on
how racism affects people of the ME living in this country. The brother of a
friend of mine changed his name because he wanted a job in a law firm that was
primarily Jewish and he didn't want to be descriminated because of his Arab
name. *This* is the kind of stuff the ADC should be fighting to prevent.
Emotionally, it's hard to separate one's feeling from what is happening in
the ME, I realize, but they need to stop ignoring whenever someone straps a
bomb on himself and blows up a bunch of kids in a Sbarro. Violence ibegets
violence and it's too late to move the Israelies anywhere. Even if there is a
Palestinian state, I can about 100% guarantee the violence will not end. If
they want to become more active, they need to talk to both sides of the issue.
Tell the ADC that whenever they want to send out a press release about the
Intifada.
<<What Christian thought are you talking about and who told you that the
ADC is geared for little religious shops of thought?>>
They don't, officially. I thought I made it clear, though. Their own press
releases use terms such as Arab-American or Muslim-American. The nature of
their organization, Arab-American should suffice. One never see them active in
the Christian community, especially in DC... their home... which is ripe with
Christian Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians and Egyptians. I even know a few
Jordanian Christians.
<<Ralph Nader does not run for any Christian party and he does not
represent any Christian organization. And when he is invited he is invited for
what he represents.>>
I realize this. I made my thoughts clear in my reply to Bassem.
<<Are you saying that you care for Nader just because he is Christian?>>
No, I personally think his politics are far too left of center.
<<And that ADC should take a roll from now on to see how many Moslems and
Christians are represented? And are you saying that will make for a better
ADC? A religious organization? I am just trying to follow your thoughts
here.>>
I'm saying they need to re-work their public relations scheme for some
consistency. If they want to be officially recognized as non-religious, then,
damn-it, stop making Muslim-American issues separate issues from those of
Arab-Americans. Do you honestly think the average American cares about the
difference between a Muslim and a Christian if they are both Arab? They don't
care... they hear a name, see olive skin and it's all over. The next time they
speak to the President, don't have people speaking on behalf of
Muslim-Americans separately, then say your a non-religious organization. There
are many Muslims in this country who are not Arab and their own communities can
deal with prejudice in their own ways.
<<This is getting to be rediculious. Where do you get this information
from? Very secterian mentality get you into such absurd grounds.>>
Just like I said, they fail as a PR machine. Just look at their press
releases. It's not anything they are trying to do, most likely, I just think
they need to examine themselves and their agenda a little more.
DeepBlue
> DeepBlue wrote...
>
> <<Assume they have a French Arts exhibit, would it bother you this
much?
> And what does a Persian Arts exhibit have to do with this issue, and what
do
> you have exactly against a Persian Arts exhibit?>>
>
> I have nothing against French or Persian art at all, but they do not
> belong at a symposium for an *Arab-American* organization. Most of the art
> present was Muslim in nature with many references to God and religion,
none of
> it Christian and not of it Arab-American.
>
Persian etc...., are supposed to widen your horizons. Art is supposed to
bridge cultures through a wider understanding. Unfortunately, all you see
in this exercise is the Moslem nature of Persian Art. Would it have been
different had the Arts exhibit been focussing on Pre-Islamic Persian times?
It is unfortunate you chose to see in it the 'Moslem' elements and NOT the
**Islamic** elements. Is that why you went to see the exhibit? To observe
the religious iconism? And does not that defeat the purpose of Arts? Is
this the level of our understanding of modern times? Would you have made
the observation had the exhibit been on French impressionism? Would you
have noticed it? Would you have described French Impressionism as Christian
art?
> <<But their concern have been American-Arabs of all religions. I
> personally know most of the ADC board here and they are all Chrisitians.
But
> they leave their religion out of the door.>>
>
> If that is their desire, then they need to work more at their public
> relations. They have come across as a Muslim organization on more than one
> occasion. I live in the DC suburbs. Even my Aunt, who lives in the
District,
> wants nothing to do with them because she has been under the impression
they
> are a Muslim organization.
Why does not your aunt give them a call then and let them know? I agree it
is an issue of PR. But let us avoid this religious bind we find ourselves
in. As I said before: there is no Christian plight in the Middle East.
There is a crisis in government in the Middle East. Reforms in the Middle
East is something we can all gain from. This is not a religious issue as
many are willing to turn your attention to.
>How can someone active in the community have that
> impression if the ADC is not miserably failing at achieving what they
claim is
> their goal... to be an Arab-American organization equal for Christians as
well
> as Muslims.
The ADC does not claim to be equal to Moslems and Christians because it is
not a secterian organization geared for religious equality. Because this is
not what they work for. I hope you see my point here.
>
> <<These things have an effect as they directly influence the
American-Arab
> street. And what is it exactly that you have agaisnt ADC talking about
the
> intifada?>>
>
> I have no issue with their discussion about it, but then they cease
to be
> an Arab-American orgainzation when they focus on world issues. They need
to
> focus less on what is happening in the ME and continue to focus more
heavily on
> how racism affects people of the ME living in this country. The brother of
a
> friend of mine changed his name because he wanted a job in a law firm that
was
> primarily Jewish and he didn't want to be descriminated because of his
Arab
> name. *This* is the kind of stuff the ADC should be fighting to prevent.
Did your friend inform the ADC of this? Did your friend make an issue of
this? In order to effect change we have to raise our voices and demand
change using available venues. I know many people who are not willing to do
this. Instead they swallow their pride and they live with their
frustrations. It is this frustration that is translated into secterian
terminology. Because, unfortunately, secterianism enables us to understand
and voice our concerns although in a wrong fashion. I know of many
occasions here where a phone call to the local ADC office have initiated a
process where a problem like that of your friend was presented.
> Emotionally, it's hard to separate one's feeling from what is
happening in
> the ME, I realize, but they need to stop ignoring whenever someone straps
a
> bomb on himself and blows up a bunch of kids in a Sbarro. Violence ibegets
> violence and it's too late to move the Israelies anywhere. Even if there
is a
> Palestinian state, I can about 100% guarantee the violence will not end.
This is a different issue. The Palestinian plight is **the** main plight
for justice in the Middle East. And it is heavily connected to the makings
of the US foriegn policy. If you are willing to see the plight of your
friend, you should be able to demand justice whenever possible.
>
> <<What Christian thought are you talking about and who told you that
the
> ADC is geared for little religious shops of thought?>>
>
> They don't, officially. I thought I made it clear, though. Their own
press
> releases use terms such as Arab-American or Muslim-American. The nature of
> their organization, Arab-American should suffice. One never see them
active in
> the Christian community, especially in DC... their home... which is ripe
with
> Christian Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians and Egyptians. I even know a few
> Jordanian Christians.
Why do not they make their protests known to the ADC through some educated
channels? Where the stress should not be on secterian issues, but on the
need for the ADC to reform its PR mechanism to reflect the concerns of all?
Why do not **you** send the ADC and e-mail and tell them of your concerns
over their PR fiascos. It takes everyone of us to effect change.
DeepBlue
BM
In article <3BE15400...@mindspring.com>,
Nicholas Totoro <nto...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I apologize Bassem... maybe I should have made that more clear. I feel they
>get someone like him to speak, even if he is agnostic or aetheist, simply as the
>token Christian by label simply because he is not a Muslim and to prevent them
>from being labeled as a Muslim organization.
Unless I hear Nader (or anyone for that matter) do it himself first, I refuse
to assign a religious belief category or label to him.
bassem