Thanksgiving and 'Shehehyanu'
Ron Aaron
Just wondering if it would be appropriate to say 'Shehehyanu' at our family
Thanksgiving dinner. It seems right...
--
Note: "rrr" should be taken out of my address in order to respond via email,
thanks!
The opinions expressed in this message are my own personal views
and do not reflect the official views of Microsoft Corporation
Joe Slater
On Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:20:08 -0800, "Ron Aaron"
<r...@mrrrossbayeng.com> wrote:
>Just wondering if it would be appropriate to say 'Shehehyanu' at our family
>Thanksgiving dinner. It seems right...
I disagree. Many - most! - Jews do not live in the USA. By attaching
Jewish religious significance to this holiday you are separating
yourself from the rest of the Jewish community.
jds
Jonathan J. Baker
I agree with Joe here. While I've been contemplating using the Rav
Riskin pseudo-kiddush (hagafen and the Prayer for the Government)
this year, since this is the first year we're giving the dinner, rather
than one of our parents, I would not say shehechiyanu is appropriate.
Shehechiyanu is for new *things* and new *Torah-mandated rituals*
(derived from sacrifices) during the course of a year. On the second
day of Rosh haShanah we have to wear a new item of clothing, or have
a new fruit, to legitimize saying shehechiyanu, because for all we know
the second day could be a continuation of the first day (yoma arichta).
We don't say it on Purim and Chanukah, except on the Rabbinically
mandated mitzvot: the megillah, not the holiday; the first night of
candles, not the dinner. Since Thanksgiving has no mitzvot associated
with it, there is no occasion to say shehechiyanu.
Now, if you really want to say it, you can use the same excuse as on
second day Yom Tov, and have, say, a pomegranate (if you haven't had
one this year), or wear a new shirt.
Regarding the Riskin pseudo-kiddush, I figure to do it in the reverse
order from the regular kiddush, because the regular order of foods
applies: wash & bread, then maybe the prayer, then hagafen and wine
(we're expecting to drink wine with dinner anyway, but there's no
kiddush, so there's no reason to play at "pores mappah umekadesh").
--
Jonathan Baker
jjb...@panix.com
Gwen A Orel
Shehehyanu is a prayer thanking G-d for bringing us to a new season.
It is appropriate for many kinds of new events, and I would think
a family gathering is one of them.
Anyone care to consider the *spirit* of the law and not just the
letter?
Gwen
--
"Live as one already dead." --Japanese saying
I live in fear of not being misunderstood.-- Oscar wilde
ron aaron
Joe,
Not meaning to stoke a flame war, but aren't you attaching Jewish religious
significance to every meal you eat when you say the brachot? Aren't you
attaching significance to waking up alive when you say the birkot hashahar?
I agree that many Jews do not live in the USA. I do, however - as well as
most of my family - and since we live in far-flung parts of the country, I
feel it is an event worthy of celebration when we get together. I would
feel the same way if I lived elsewhere - Thanksgiving is just the venue.
Ron
Joe Slater wrote in message
<3474c6b6...@newsserver.cc.monash.edu.au>...
>On Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:20:08 -0800, "Ron Aaron"
><r...@mrrrossbayeng.com> wrote:
>>Just wondering if it would be appropriate to say 'Shehehyanu' at our
family
>>Thanksgiving dinner. It seems right...
>
>I disagree. Many - most! - Jews do not live in the USA. By attaching
>Jewish religious significance to this holiday you are separating
>yourself from the rest of the Jewish community.
>
>jds
Matt Silberstein
In soc.culture.jewish j...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Joe Slater) wrote:
>On Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:20:08 -0800, "Ron Aaron"
><r...@mrrrossbayeng.com> wrote:
>>Just wondering if it would be appropriate to say 'Shehehyanu' at our family
>>Thanksgiving dinner. It seems right...
>
>I disagree. Many - most! - Jews do not live in the USA. By attaching
>Jewish religious significance to this holiday you are separating
>yourself from the rest of the Jewish community.
Huh? You mean praying at the wrong time separates you from the
community? What a thought.
Matt Silberstein
-----------------------------
The opinions expressed in this post reflect those of the Walt
Disney Corp. Which might come as a surprise to them.
Debra Fran Baker
In <65207h$ob7$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu> grue...@fas.harvard.edu (Jonathan Gruenhut) writes:
>Ron Aaron (r...@mrrrossbayeng.com) wrote:
>: Just wondering if it would be appropriate to say 'Shehehyanu' at our family
>: Thanksgiving dinner. It seems right...
>if you're not sure, buy a new fruit to eat after kiddush.
What "kiddush" do you say at Thanksgiving?
--
One sharp peppercorn is better than a basketful of melons.
-- Tractate Megillah 7A
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Debra Fran Baker dfb...@panix.com
Simcha Streltsov
Gwen A Orel (gao...@pitt.edu) wrote:
: Shehehyanu is a prayer thanking G-d for bringing us to a new season.
: It is appropriate for many kinds of new events, and I would think
: a family gathering is one of them.
: Anyone care to consider the *spirit* of the law and not just the
: letter?
indeed, spirits are good for your health, as any French doctor
will say.
as to the letter, AFAIU, halacha previously required to
say this blessing when you did not see a person for,
I think, a month - as you might assumed that he could
pass away.
(again AFAIU), in our days of phones and emails, ppl have
an opportunity to stay in touch more often, so the reason
goes away.
You may also think about getting enough relatives to get
a minyan, say a dvar Torah and a kaddish derabonan
together.
Simcha
This is an environmentally clean post -
100% devoid of any substance, please recycle.
This sig is endorsed by
Mar Michael Shimshoni, Rabbi Jay La-pidus, Dr. Amitai Halevi
and a modemjunkie Leonard Grossman
Sensei
The shehechyanu is always appropriate, no matter what the occasion.
But at Thanksgiving, it is especially appropo.
P.S. You may want to add a "Todah Raba" on the end, just to make it
mainstream American... :D
Debra Fran Baker <dfb...@panix.com> wrote in article
<654k02$n...@panix2.panix.com>...
Ailsa Murphy
In article <657vqe$lne$1...@news1.bu.edu>, Simcha Streltsov <sim...@bu.edu> wrote:
>
>as to the letter, AFAIU, halacha previously required to
>say this blessing when you did not see a person for,
>I think, a month - as you might assumed that he could
>pass away.
>
>(again AFAIU), in our days of phones and emails, ppl have
>an opportunity to stay in touch more often, so the reason
>goes away.
>
only at Thanksgiving, then I can say Shecheyanu over dinner?
(Although knowing my family, if we can have an emntire
Thanksgiving without fighting, _then_ it will be time for a
Shecheyanu indeed!)
>You may also think about getting enough relatives to get
>a minyan, say a dvar Torah and a kaddish derabonan
>together.
>
Someday, G-d willing, I will have relatives such that I
will be able to field a minyan.
-Ailsa
--
Sing water, sing water, sing rain and the river an...@spdcc.com
Sing oceans and waterfalls, water sing peace is
Sing water, sing water, sing mist on the mountain Ailsa N.T. Murphy
Sing rain in the desert, sing water, sing peace.
Joe Slater
>In soc.culture.jewish j...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Joe Slater) wrote:
>>I disagree. Many - most! - Jews do not live in the USA. By attaching
>>Jewish religious significance to this holiday you are separating
>>yourself from the rest of the Jewish community.
On Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:15:54 GMT, mat...@ix.netcom.com (Matt
Silberstein) wrote:
>Huh? You mean praying at the wrong time separates you from the
>community? What a thought.
Fine. Go ahead and make kiddush on thanksgiving, blow the shofar on
Halloween, and wave a lulav on the 4th of July. I've got better things
to do than reply to snide replies made by people who refuse to address
serious issues.
jds
Joe Slater
On 21 Nov 1997 21:40:56 GMT, gao...@pitt.edu (Gwen A Orel) wrote:
>Shehehyanu is a prayer thanking G-d for bringing us to a new season.
>It is appropriate for many kinds of new events, and I would think
>a family gathering is one of them.
That turns out not to be the case.
>Anyone care to consider the *spirit* of the law and not just the
>letter?
Sure. What is the letter of the law? I think that's got to be the
starting ground for any discussion of the spirit, just as the letter
of the USAn Constitution must be known before you can discuss its
spirit.
jds
Zev Sero
On Fri, 21 Nov 1997 08:59:24 -0800, "ron aaron" <r...@mossrrrbay.com>
wrote:
>I agree that many Jews do not live in the USA. I do, however - as well as
>most of my family - and since we live in far-flung parts of the country, I
>feel it is an event worthy of celebration when we get together. I would
>feel the same way if I lived elsewhere - Thanksgiving is just the venue.
If your family is indeed spread all over the place and are never in
the same place, and you do indeed get together at Thanksgiving or
some other occasion, and your heart is filled with joy at this event,
then IMHO Shecheyanu is appropriate. I didn't see your original post
(I seem to have missed quite a bit of news lately), but from the
snippet that Joe quoted I didn't get the impression that you were
talking about a specific situation, but about the generic USAn
Thansgiving dinner. Where there is no specific joy in ones heart,
there is no reason to say Shehecheyanu, and by doing so one would
be suggesting that Thanksgiving is a Jewish holiday, one which
intrinsically brings joy just by existing; as Joe pointed out, this
would be the same as saying that those Jews for whom this USAn
holiday means nothing are not part of your Jewish community.
--
Zev Sero
zs...@idt.net
Irene Stern Friedman
>"Ron Aaron"<r...@mrrrossbayeng.com> wrote:
> >Just wondering if it would be appropriate to say 'Shehehyanu' at our family
> >Thanksgiving dinner. It seems right...
We have done this for years and it is lovely, joining Jewish values and an
American Holiday. We remind ourselves that we are free to practice our
religion here, even if Mall Santas are annoying and the kids miss
schoolwork when they take off for the chagim. Actually, even if we were in
Israel, as Conservative Jews we oould have problems, too because the state
wouldn't recognize our marriages, etcetera. Counting blessings is always a
good thing
j...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Joe Slater) wrote:
> I disagree. Many - most! - Jews do not live in the USA. By attaching
> Jewish religious significance to this holiday you are separating
> yourself from the rest of the Jewish community.
Most Jews aren't in the family for whom we all say shehechayanoo at any
given Bar/Bat Mitzvah...but we say it. Many Jews are happy on Thanksgiving
that they live in a land with great civil and religious liberty. It's
something for which to be thankful and when Jews are thankful this is the
appropriate prayer.
Irene Stern Friedman
Irene Stern Friedman
dfb...@panix.com (Debra Fran Baker) wrote:
> In <65207h$ob7$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu> grue...@fas.harvard.edu
(Jonathan Gruenhut) writes:
>
> >Ron Aaron (r...@mrrrossbayeng.com) wrote:
> >: Just wondering if it would be appropriate to say 'Shehehyanu' at our family
> >: Thanksgiving dinner. It seems right...
>
> >if you're not sure, buy a new fruit to eat after kiddush.
>
> What "kiddush" do you say at Thanksgiving?
> --
"Borei prei hagafen" with the wine, of course. The short one. It's not
shabbat or festival, but we make a blessing when we drink wine, any
Thursday or regular day.
Jonathan Gruenhut
Irene Stern Friedman (le...@epix.net) wrote:
: dfb...@panix.com (Debra Fran Baker) wrote:
: > In <65207h$ob7$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu> grue...@fas.harvard.edu
: (Jonathan Gruenhut) writes:
: > >Ron Aaron (r...@mrrrossbayeng.com) wrote:
: > >: Just wondering if it would be appropriate to say 'Shehehyanu' at our family
: > >: Thanksgiving dinner. It seems right...
: > >if you're not sure, buy a new fruit to eat after kiddush.
: > What "kiddush" do you say at Thanksgiving?
: shabbat or festival, but we make a blessing when we drink wine, any
: Thursday or regular day.
Er, one doesn't make kiddush on Thanksgiving at all. The blessing
over the wine has nothing to do with the (lack of) sanctity of the
day. I was being ironic, reminding people that an appropriate
halachic reason can always be found to say shehecheyanu, and alluding
to the second night of Rosh Hashana.
BTW, you could also have 2 good wines and say a "hatov v'hameitiv,"
but you say that bracha during bircat hamazon in any case.
---
JXG
Jonathan J. Baker
In <> le...@epix.net (Irene Stern Friedman ) writes:
> dfb...@panix.com (Debra Fran Baker) wrote:
>>(Jonathan Gruenhut) writes:
>> >Ron Aaron (r...@mrrrossbayeng.com) wrote:
>> >: Just wondering if it would be appropriate to say 'Shehehyanu' at our family
>> >: Thanksgiving dinner. It seems right...
>> >if you're not sure, buy a new fruit to eat after kiddush.
>> What "kiddush" do you say at Thanksgiving?
>"Borei prei hagafen" with the wine, of course. The short one. It's not
>shabbat or festival, but we make a blessing when we drink wine, any
>Thursday or regular day.
Just be sure to say 'hagafen' after 'hamotzi'. On Shabbat or Yom Tov,
the requirement of sanctifying the day mandates that you have the wine
which is associated with the kiddush *first*. This overrides the normal
order of blessings, which is *bread first*, and is why we cover the bread:
we don't want to say the blessing of wine before the blessing of bread,
so we cover it up to pretend it isn't there, and then all sides are
satisfied. On Thanksgiving, since there is no day to sanctify, the
usual rules apply: wash, eat bread, then hagafen, then other foods.
--
Jonathan Baker
jjb...@panix.com
Debra Fran Baker
> dfb...@panix.com (Debra Fran Baker) wrote:
>> In <65207h$ob7$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu> grue...@fas.harvard.edu
>(Jonathan Gruenhut) writes:
>>
>> >Ron Aaron (r...@mrrrossbayeng.com) wrote:
>> >: Just wondering if it would be appropriate to say 'Shehehyanu' at our family
>> >: Thanksgiving dinner. It seems right...
>>
>> >if you're not sure, buy a new fruit to eat after kiddush.
>>
>> What "kiddush" do you say at Thanksgiving?
>> --
>"Borei prei hagafen" with the wine, of course. The short one. It's not
>shabbat or festival, but we make a blessing when we drink wine, any
>Thursday or regular day.
It's not a kiddush at all. It's just the standard bracha. Calling it
kiddush is a mistake.
Matt Silberstein
In soc.culture.jewish j...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Joe Slater) wrote:
>>In soc.culture.jewish j...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Joe Slater) wrote:
>>>I disagree. Many - most! - Jews do not live in the USA. By attaching
>>>Jewish religious significance to this holiday you are separating
>>>yourself from the rest of the Jewish community.
>
>On Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:15:54 GMT, mat...@ix.netcom.com (Matt
>Silberstein) wrote:
>>Huh? You mean praying at the wrong time separates you from the
>>community? What a thought.
>
>Fine. Go ahead and make kiddush on thanksgiving, blow the shofar on
>Halloween, and wave a lulav on the 4th of July. I've got better things
>to do than reply to snide replies made by people who refuse to address
>serious issues.
And what better things are that? Near as I can tell it is making snide
replies to someone who was addressing an issue.
Joe Slater
>>"Ron Aaron"<r...@mrrrossbayeng.com> wrote:
>> >Just wondering if it would be appropriate to say 'Shehehyanu' at our family
>> >Thanksgiving dinner. It seems right...
On Sun, 23 Nov 1997 13:50:29 -0500, le...@epix.net (Irene Stern
Friedman ) wrote:
>We have done this for years and it is lovely, joining Jewish values and an
>American Holiday.
I'm sure it is very pleasant. My concern is that by making it a
*religious* holiday you have created a Jewish festival which in which
I (an Australian) cannot share - nor can most of the world's Jewish
population. Can you not see how divisive this is?
>j...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Joe Slater) wrote:
> > I disagree. Many - most! - Jews do not live in the USA. By attaching
>> Jewish religious significance to this holiday you are separating
>> yourself from the rest of the Jewish community.
>Most Jews aren't in the family for whom we all say shehechayanoo at any
>given Bar/Bat Mitzvah...but we say it.
I don't know why. In any event that is a red herring: you are
comparing a practice which theoretically applies to all Jews (saying
shehechayanoo at a Bar/Bat Mitzvah) to one which can only ever apply
to those Jews living in the USA.
>Many Jews are happy on Thanksgiving
>that they live in a land with great civil and religious liberty. It's
>something for which to be thankful and when Jews are thankful this is the
>appropriate prayer.
No, it isn't. It's a prayer said on certain occasions which inspire
joy, such as new clothes, fruit, or some cyclical mitzvot. There is no
cyclical element to your civil and religious liberty; you enjoy it
every day. If Jews enjoyed their civil rights only once a year it
might well be an occasion to recite shehechayanoo.
Despite all that I have said there is in fact some precedent for your
practice. There were Jewish communities (so I have read) which had
communal days modelled after Purim in which they thanked G-d for some
act of deliverance which happened to their forefathers. I distinguish
your proposed festival on the following bases:
These mini-Purim festivals were based on events which happened to
their ancestors. Thanksgiving happened to a bunch of intolerant
Christians. They were in thanks for a specific act of deliverance -
your thanks is not for those Pilgrims who would have despised you, but
for the freedoms of your country instituted centuries later. The
mini-Purims were Jewish festivals, but your Thanksgiving is
particularly in imitation of non-Jewish practices.
jds
jds
Tracey R Rich
>Not meaning to stoke a flame war, but aren't you attaching
>Jewish religious significance to every meal you eat when
>waking up alive when you say the birkot hashahar?
Yes, and that is precisely the reason why we say those blessings at
those times. It reminds us that the meal comes from G-d, that our
life comes from G-d. But to attach religious significance to a
holiday created by a secular government... that is not something
that comes from G-d. And it is not particularly more appropriate
than saying Shehehyanu at a family dinner on Christmas.
-------------------------------------
Overheard at Yom Kippur Services:
I've reached a point in my life where standing for hours on end is more
of a hardship than fasting. I'm not sure if I'm happy about that.
Gwen A Orel
Joe Slater (j...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au) wrote:
: I'm sure it is very pleasant. My concern is that by making it a
: *religious* holiday you have created a Jewish festival which in which
: I (an Australian) cannot share - nor can most of the world's Jewish
: population. Can you not see how divisive this is?
No, I can't, frankly. Jewish blessings are not confined to strictly
Jewish observances. I take it you say the blessing over bread
when you eat a marmite sandwich. Would you say that is "divisive?"
: I don't know why. In any event that is a red herring: you are
: comparing a practice which theoretically applies to all Jews (saying
: shehechayanoo at a Bar/Bat Mitzvah) to one which can only ever apply
: to those Jews living in the USA.
I think the principle here is that the blessing is appropriate
at *holidays*. I see no reason why Australian Jews couldn't
say it when they gather for an Australian holiday.
: No, it isn't. It's a prayer said on certain occasions which inspire
: joy, such as new clothes, fruit, or some cyclical mitzvot. There is no
: cyclical element to your civil and religious liberty; you enjoy it
: every day. If Jews enjoyed their civil rights only once a year it
: might well be an occasion to recite shehechayanoo.
This is just silly. You allow I can say it when I return from the Gap
with a new pair of jeans, but not when I eat the traditional family
dinner with my relatives? You think the jeans are more joyous?
: Despite all that I have said there is in fact some precedent for your
: practice. There were Jewish communities (so I have read) which had
: communal days modelled after Purim in which they thanked G-d for some
: act of deliverance which happened to their forefathers. I distinguish
: your proposed festival on the following bases:
: These mini-Purim festivals were based on events which happened to
: their ancestors. Thanksgiving happened to a bunch of intolerant
: Christians. They were in thanks for a specific act of deliverance -
: your thanks is not for those Pilgrims who would have despised you, but
: for the freedoms of your country instituted centuries later. The
: mini-Purims were Jewish festivals, but your Thanksgiving is
: particularly in imitation of non-Jewish practices.
That seems to me just your particular bias. Thanksgiving is an
American holiday in which all Americans have a share. Get that chip
off your shoulder.
Gwen A Orel
Tracey R Rich (trr...@sol.com) wrote:
: >Not meaning to stoke a flame war, but aren't you attaching
: >you say the brachot? Aren't you attaching significance to
: >waking up alive when you say the birkot hashahar?
: Yes, and that is precisely the reason why we say those blessings at
: those times. It reminds us that the meal comes from G-d, that our
: life comes from G-d. But to attach religious significance to a
: holiday created by a secular government... that is not something
: that comes from G-d. And it is not particularly more appropriate
: than saying Shehehyanu at a family dinner on Christmas.
That's inflammatory, imho. Comparing Thanksgiving to Christmas??
Excuse me, but most American Jews are *proud* to be American.
The religious significance is not to the *holiday* per se but to
the celebrating of it with family and friends. Or are you saying
American Jews should not observe Thanksgiving? Or July 4th, or
Memorial day? Maybe they should be exempt from the draft, too?
If not then there is no reason Jews should not take part in these
days. And they should do tso in a Jewish fashion.
mei...@erols.com
In soc.culture.jewish on Sun, 23 Nov 1997 04:52:35 GMT an...@spdcc.com
(Ailsa Murphy) posted:
>In article <657vqe$lne$1...@news1.bu.edu>, Simcha Streltsov <sim...@bu.edu> wrote:
>>
>>as to the letter, AFAIU, halacha previously required to
>>say this blessing when you did not see a person for,
>>I think, a month - as you might assumed that he could
>>pass away.
>>
>>(again AFAIU), in our days of phones and emails, ppl have
>>an opportunity to stay in touch more often, so the reason
>>goes away.
>>
>So, since one of my guests will be my sister, whom I see
>only at Thanksgiving, then I can say Shecheyanu over dinner?
>(Although knowing my family, if we can have an emntire
>Thanksgiving without fighting, _then_ it will be time for a
>Shecheyanu indeed!)
Perhaps then you should say it when you first see your sister, since
you may not feel quite so inclined if the fighting starts, G-d forbid.
>>
P&M
meir
mei...@erols.com
In soc.culture.jewish on 21 Nov 1997 21:40:56 GMT gao...@pitt.edu
(Gwen A Orel) posted:
>Shehehyanu is a prayer thanking G-d for bringing us to a new season.
>It is appropriate for many kinds of new events, and I would think
>a family gathering is one of them.
>Anyone care to consider the *spirit* of the law and not just the
>letter?
I really hate the source from which that distinction comes, II
Corinthians 3:6 in the xian Bible. Read it and you'll see how Paul
has a hissy fit because he can't get what he wants and, in almost the
whole chapter, attacks Judaism and Moses.
Perhaps one could say the same thing in different words, or use a
different argument altogether.
meir
Jonathan J. Baker
In <> j...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Joe Slater) writes:
>mini-Purims were Jewish festivals, but your Thanksgiving is
>particularly in imitation of non-Jewish practices.
One quibble. The USAn Thanksgiving is not an imitation of
non-Jewish practices. Sure, there was a week-long feast of thanksgiving
made by the Pilgrims in 1621, modeled after Sukkot (if you want talk
talk about imitating practices of other religious, they literally got
it from us). But it wasn't much of an official holiday until
several hundred years later. In the late 1790s, when the Federal
Government proclaimed Thanksgiving as a national (secular) holiday,
a) the religious beliefs of the Founding Fathers were far from those
of the English Puritans; b) it was a *national* holiday, for each group
to celebrate as it pleased; c) in that context, the Spanish-Portuguese
Synagogue started celebrating the holiday, with a 40-page sermon from
Dr. Seixas, the rabbi of the synagogue. So it is a Jewish celebration
just as much as it is a Christian celebration, because it is a *national*
celebration. Every year the Spanish-Portuguese Synagogue has a breakfast
on Thanksgiving morning, Rabbi Angel gives a short dvar Torah on the theme
of Thanksgiving, and they say the last 4 chapters of Hallel after the
service as extra Tehillim, but sung aloud (without the repetitions).
And then everybody goes to watch the Thanksgiving Day Parade which
passes by right outside the synagogue.
--
Jonathan Baker
jjb...@panix.com
ron aaron
Zev,
Thank you for your post -
I wasn't referring to Thanksgiving *per se*, but rather to the fact that our
family only gets together once a year (if that), so it seemed appropriate to
me to celebrate my happiness by saying 'shehecheyanu'. It appears you
concur with that idea - I'll consult my Rav tomorrow, thanks!
BTW, I'm sorry if my original post conveyed the idea that I thought
Thanksgiving per se was sufficient reason to say the bracha - obviously, I
don't think that, and I agree with one of my original respondants that that
would be an un-kosher thing.
Toda rabbah,
Ron
Zev Sero wrote in message <34839e7f...@news.idt.net>...
>On Fri, 21 Nov 1997 08:59:24 -0800, "ron aaron" <r...@mossrrrbay.com>
>wrote:
>
>>I agree that many Jews do not live in the USA. I do, however - as well as
>>most of my family - and since we live in far-flung parts of the country, I
>>feel it is an event worthy of celebration when we get together. I would
>>feel the same way if I lived elsewhere - Thanksgiving is just the venue.
>
>If your family is indeed spread all over the place and are never in
>the same place, and you do indeed get together at Thanksgiving or
>some other occasion, and your heart is filled with joy at this event,
>then IMHO Shecheyanu is appropriate.
>Zev Sero
>zs...@idt.net
Colin Rosenthal
On 24 Nov 1997 06:50:33 GMT,
>Joe Slater (j...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au) wrote:
>: I'm sure it is very pleasant. My concern is that by making it a
>: *religious* holiday you have created a Jewish festival which in which
>: I (an Australian) cannot share - nor can most of the world's Jewish
>: population. Can you not see how divisive this is?
>
>No, I can't, frankly. Jewish blessings are not confined to strictly
>Jewish observances. I take it you say the blessing over bread
>when you eat a marmite sandwich. Would you say that is "divisive?"
Shouldn't that be "Vegimite" for an aussie?
>That seems to me just your particular bias. Thanksgiving is an
>American holiday in which all Americans have a share. Get that chip
>off your shoulder.
As a Briton I always give special thanks on the Fourth of July that we
no longer have to deal with the burden of those pesky transatlantic
colonials.
--
Colin Rosenthal
High Altitude Observatory
Boulder, Colorado
rose...@hao.ucar.edu
Menachem Bazian, CPA
#Just wondering if it would be appropriate to say 'Shehehyanu' at our family
#Thanksgiving dinner. It seems right...
#
Well, personally I don't think so. Thanksgiving is not a Jewish
Holiday and I do not see a particular significance to it vis a vis
making Brachot.
If you want to say She'hecheyanu, get a fruit that you have not eaten
this season and eat it for the first time. Make a She'hecheyanu on
that...
JOMO,
Menachem
Menachem Bazian, CPA
On Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:02:07 -0800, "ron aaron" <r...@mossrrrbay.com>
wrote:
#Zev,
#
#Thank you for your post -
#
#I wasn't referring to Thanksgiving *per se*, but rather to the fact that our
#family only gets together once a year (if that), so it seemed appropriate to
#me to celebrate my happiness by saying 'shehecheyanu'. It appears you
#concur with that idea - I'll consult my Rav tomorrow, thanks!
Well, I wonder. If you haven't seen your family in a year, shouldn't
the bracha be "Baruch ... Mechaye Meitim?"
Menachem
mei...@erols.com
In soc.culture.jewish on 24 Nov 1997 10:28:48 -0500 jjb...@panix.com
(Jonathan J. Baker) posted:
>In <> j...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Joe Slater) writes:
>>mini-Purims were Jewish festivals, but your Thanksgiving is
>>particularly in imitation of non-Jewish practices.
>One quibble. The USAn Thanksgiving is not an imitation of
>non-Jewish practices. Sure, there was a week-long feast of thanksgiving
>made by the Pilgrims in 1621, modeled after Sukkot (if you want talk
>talk about imitating practices of other religious, they literally got
>it from us). But it wasn't much of an official holiday until
>several hundred years later. In the late 1790s, when the Federal
>Government proclaimed Thanksgiving as a national (secular) holiday,
>a) the religious beliefs of the Founding Fathers were far from those
>of the English Puritans; b) it was a *national* holiday, for each group
>to celebrate as it pleased;
Yes, I have marveled that Thanksgiving is one of the holidays in the
world AFAIK which is a non-denominational religious holiday. I have
never seen it described or portrayed in partcularly xian or any other
religion's terms. Yet it is celebrated by Americans of all religions,
some with church or shul observance. It is religious because most
people interpret the 'thanks' as being to G-d.
> c) in that context, the Spanish-Portuguese
>Synagogue started celebrating the holiday, with a 40-page sermon from
>Dr. Seixas, the rabbi of the synagogue. So it is a Jewish celebration
>just as much as it is a Christian celebration, because it is a *national*
>celebration. Every year the Spanish-Portuguese Synagogue has a breakfast
>on Thanksgiving morning, Rabbi Angel gives a short dvar Torah on the theme
>of Thanksgiving, and they say the last 4 chapters of Hallel after the
>service as extra Tehillim, but sung aloud (without the repetitions).
>And then everybody goes to watch the Thanksgiving Day Parade which
>passes by right outside the synagogue.
>--
> Jonathan Baker
> jjb...@panix.com
meir
Joe Slater
>Joe Slater (j...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au) wrote:
>: I'm sure it is very pleasant. My concern is that by making it a
>: *religious* holiday you have created a Jewish festival which in which
>: I (an Australian) cannot share - nor can most of the world's Jewish
>: population. Can you not see how divisive this is?
On 24 Nov 1997 06:50:33 GMT, gao...@pitt.edu (Gwen A Orel) wrote:
>No, I can't, frankly. Jewish blessings are not confined to strictly
>Jewish observances. I take it you say the blessing over bread
>when you eat a marmite sandwich. Would you say that is "divisive?"
Vegemite sandwich. And no, it is not divisive. You too may enjoy the
bountiful blessings of Vegemite. Vegemite! it makes you grow stronger
in every way! Vegemite! The richest source of B-group vitamins!
>: I don't know why. In any event that is a red herring: you are
>: comparing a practice which theoretically applies to all Jews (saying
>: shehechayanoo at a Bar/Bat Mitzvah) to one which can only ever apply
>: to those Jews living in the USA.
>
>I think the principle here is that the blessing is appropriate
>at *holidays*. I see no reason why Australian Jews couldn't
>say it when they gather for an Australian holiday.
If it were appropriate to say it on "holidays" (and I must say that I
feel little spiritual joy on, say, Labor Day or Queen's Birthday) then
that would be one thing. What has been proposed is a particularly USAn
Jewish holiday whereupon USAn Jews may celebrate their religious
freedoms. I'm not sure quite what those freedoms are, myself.
>: No, it isn't. It's a prayer said on certain occasions which inspire
>: joy, such as new clothes, fruit, or some cyclical mitzvot. There is no
>: cyclical element to your civil and religious liberty; you enjoy it
>: every day. If Jews enjoyed their civil rights only once a year it
>: might well be an occasion to recite shehechayanoo.
>
>This is just silly. You allow I can say it when I return from the Gap
>with a new pair of jeans, but not when I eat the traditional family
>dinner with my relatives? You think the jeans are more joyous?
Most people wouldn't say it for a new pair of jeans, but they would
for a new suit. They are thanking G-d for helping them reach a
particular milestone: most joyous occasions do not inspire this
blessing.
>:[Y]our Thanksgiving is
>: particularly in imitation of non-Jewish practices.
>
>That seems to me just your particular bias. Thanksgiving is an
>American holiday in which all Americans have a share. Get that chip
>off your shoulder.
Do all Americans (incidentally, aren't Mexicans and Canadians American
anymore?) say shechechiyanu at this meal?
jds
Gwen A Orel
Joe Slater (j...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au) wrote:
: Vegemite sandwich. And no, it is not divisive. You too may enjoy the
: bountiful blessings of Vegemite. Vegemite! it makes you grow stronger
: in every way! Vegemite! The richest source of B-group vitamins!
Oh, but wait, it's an Australian food. How divisive you are, daring
to bless a food the whole world can't eat.
: If it were appropriate to say it on "holidays" (and I must say that I
: feel little spiritual joy on, say, Labor Day or Queen's Birthday) then
: that would be one thing. What has been proposed is a particularly USAn
: Jewish holiday whereupon USAn Jews may celebrate their religious
: freedoms. I'm not sure quite what those freedoms are, myself.
Where do you get the idea that sheheheyanu celebrates religious freedoms?
It thanks G-d for bringing us safely to this time. If American Jews,
as they do, see Thanksgiving as a time they share together, why should
they not bless it?
: Most people wouldn't say it for a new pair of jeans, but they would
: for a new suit. They are thanking G-d for helping them reach a
: particular milestone: most joyous occasions do not inspire this
: blessing.
That's not what you said, you said new clothes. And yes, Thanksgiving
is a joyous holiday in America.
: Do all Americans (incidentally, aren't Mexicans and Canadians American
: anymore?) say shechechiyanu at this meal?
Huh??? You mean Jews should not celebrate in their own way because
some people don't pray like them? And discussing Mexicans and C Canadians
is snide and silly. This holiday, like the 4th of July, if from the United
States. We call ourselves Americans because there is no term like statesians,
but to try to make that sound somehow exclusive is just nasty. You knew
perfectly well what I meant.
Ron Aaron
OK, so I asked my Rav what's the deal, and here's his decision (which I'll
abide by):
First, in the Mishna it says that one says shehecheyanu when one's heart is
happy, which would indicate that you *could* say it on any happy occasion...
However, in the Gemara and in halacha, it says no!, you can't. You can say
shehecheyanu when you get a new piece of clothing, because it is *uniquely
new*. Likewise, you say it on Rosh HaShanah etc.
You say shehecheyanu on the *first* night of Chanukka but not the second
etc.
Anyway, he said that in the case where there is safek, as in this case, one
should purchase a new garment (or taste a fruit for the first time this
year - does cranberry count?), say the shehecheyanu over the garment (or
whatever) and *have in mind* the joy one feels at being with one's family,
to include it in the mitzvah.
Thanks for all your input, sorry about starting a war...
Ron
Joe Slater
>Joe Slater (j...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au) wrote:
>: If it were appropriate to say it on "holidays" (and I must say that I
>: feel little spiritual joy on, say, Labor Day or Queen's Birthday) then
>: that would be one thing. What has been proposed is a particularly USAn
>: Jewish holiday whereupon USAn Jews may celebrate their religious
>: freedoms. I'm not sure quite what those freedoms are, myself.
On 25 Nov 1997 16:06:57 GMT, gao...@pitt.edu (Gwen A Orel) wrote:
>Where do you get the idea that sheheheyanu celebrates religious freedoms?
I didn't write that, did I? Read what I wrote.
>: Most people wouldn't say it for a new pair of jeans, but they would
>: for a new suit. They are thanking G-d for helping them reach a
>: particular milestone: most joyous occasions do not inspire this
>: blessing.
>
>That's not what you said, you said new clothes. And yes, Thanksgiving
>is a joyous holiday in America.
I am perplexed. I have written one thing, but you respond as if I were
to have written another. I am sure Thanksgiving is a joyous holiday in
the United States of America, but shechecheyanu is not said just
because something is a joyous holiday. We don't say it on all Jewish
festivals; only the Biblical ones.
>: Do all Americans (incidentally, aren't Mexicans and Canadians American
>: anymore?) say shechechiyanu at this meal?
>Huh??? You mean Jews should not celebrate in their own way because
>some people don't pray like them?
You have been simultaneously claiming two contradictory things: that
Jews should be like all citizens of your country; and that there
should be a particularly Jewish celebration at this time. I am trying
to show you the inconsistency in your idea.
>And discussing Mexicans and C Canadians
>is snide and silly. This holiday, like the 4th of July, if from the United
>States. We call ourselves Americans because there is no term like statesians,
>but to try to make that sound somehow exclusive is just nasty. You knew
>perfectly well what I meant.
Calling yourselves "Americans" is precisely as sensible as the Swiss
referring to themselves as citizens of Europe. It implies that your
country alone represents the whole. The rest of the world does have a
brief and euphonious term to describe your compatriots. It rhymes with
thanks,
jds
Gwen A Orel
Joe,
if you can't even accept that citizens of the USA refer to themselves
as Americans for lack of a better word, there is no point even discussing
this. You are clearly just trying to pick a fight, not convince me of
anything.
Gwen
Joe Slater (j...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au) wrote:
: thanks,
: jds
--
Gwen A Orel
By the way, the brief and euphonious term you mention did not appear
on my screen. I assume it is an insult. How nice, for one Jew
to slam another because we feel our holidays actually matter to us.
You are exactly the epitome of all I hate about this newsgroup:
the desire to pick on words rather than engage in discussion, the desire
to assert superiority rather than trying to communicate. No wonder
people leave the flock in droves when confronted by Jews like you.
Zev Sero
>Well, I wonder. If you haven't seen your family in a year, shouldn't
>the bracha be "Baruch ... Mechaye Meitim?"
Not if you've spoken to them on the phone, or even if you haven't
but you know that if ChV something happened to them someone would
have phoned you. In these days of abundant communication, the
bracha of Mechaye Hameitim on seeing friends and relatives after
a long time is almost obsolete.
--
Zev Sero
zs...@idt.net
Roger Williams
Joe Slater <j...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote:
<snjip>
> Vegemite sandwich. And no, it is not divisive. You too may enjoy the
> bountiful blessings of Vegemite. Vegemite! it makes you grow stronger
> in every way! Vegemite! The richest source of B-group vitamins!
Er, raw kelp is also high in vitamins, but I wouldn't recommend it
to anybody. In know you're kidding, but in all seriousness, vegemite
tastes like your foot's asleep. I used to keep a pair of bearded dragons
(also Australian... pogona vitticeps) and the breeder recommended that
their calcium dusted cricket diet be augmented with leafy greens and
vegemite. Nope, even the stupid lizards knew better than to get near that
funny smelling brown goop :) Are vegemite sandwiches really popular in
Australia, or is that simply a myth perpetuated by that "Men at Work"
song?
<much snjipped>
--
{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{} \|/
{} Roger W. {} 0< -- alt.usenet.kooks!
{} http://www.parrot.net ad...@parrot.net {} ^^^^(*)^^^^
{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{} ^^ / \ ^^
Zev Sero
>OK, so I asked my Rav what's the deal, and here's his decision (which I'll
>abide by):
>First, in the Mishna it says that one says shehecheyanu when one's heart is
>happy, which would indicate that you *could* say it on any happy occasion...
>However, in the Gemara and in halacha, it says no!, you can't. You can say
>shehecheyanu when you get a new piece of clothing, because it is *uniquely
>new*. Likewise, you say it on Rosh HaShanah etc.
I disagree. IMHO if your heart is truly full of joy at any event, you
should say shehecheyanu if you are the only participant in the joy, or
hatov vehameitiv if you have partners in the joy. So if you rarely
see your family, and are truly overjoyed at seeing them, then you
should say a bracha. If only you have this joy, either because the
rest of the family doesn't share your feelings about them, or because
they see each other all the time, and you're the only one who's
isolated by distance etc, then you should say shehecheyanu; if noone
ever sees anyone else, and everyone feels as you do about each other,
so they're all overjoyed at this happy event, then you should all
say hatov vehametiv, or one person should say it and everyone else
answer amen.
The difference between this and the cases prescribed in halacha is
that one says shehecheyanu on eating a new fruit even if one isn't
particularly thrilled about it. I don't care for pawpaw, for
instance, and happily go from Rosh Hashana to Rosh Hashana without
touching it, but if it's the only new (to me) fruit at the table
on Rosh Hashana I'll have it in mind for the shehecheyanu, because
that's accepted as an occasion for the bracha. Similarly, one may
be left cold by the advent of a yomtov, or a seasonal mitzvah,
and feel no excitement whatsoever, and still say shehecheyanu over
it. But on seeing your family, if you don't really feel excited
over it, you shouldn't say the bracha.
>Anyway, he said that in the case where there is safek, as in this case, one
>should purchase a new garment (or taste a fruit for the first time this
>year - does cranberry count?)
Shehecheyanu is only said on those fruits where one can easily
tell that they are from the new season. That's why it's said on
watermelon but not on potatoes. I think cranberries are available
in abundance throughout the year, and even if the appearance of
fresh raw cranberries can be distinguished from that of old ones
(I don't know) I doubt that they can be told apart that easily
in a sauce, so my guess is that they don't count.
--
Zev Sero
zs...@idt.net
Gwen A Orel
How can you say that? Nothing is like *being* there. You can't kiss
someone through the phone! Feh!
Gwen
Zev Sero (zs...@idt.net) wrote:
: On Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:19:52 GMT, baz...@idt.net (Menachem Bazian,
: CPA) wrote:
--
Zev Sero
>: >Well, I wonder. If you haven't seen your family in a year, shouldn't
>: >the bracha be "Baruch ... Mechaye Meitim?"
>: Not if you've spoken to them on the phone, or even if you haven't
>: but you know that if ChV something happened to them someone would
>: have phoned you. In these days of abundant communication, the
>: bracha of Mechaye Hameitim on seeing friends and relatives after
>: a long time is almost obsolete.
>How can you say that? Nothing is like *being* there. You can't kiss
>someone through the phone! Feh!
If you need to kiss someone to know that they're alive, there's
something seriously wrong with you.
BTW, could you please see your way clear to quoting posts in the
standard format that has been customary on Usenet for the past
20 years or so? I've reformatted this post to conform to that
standard, but it's really annoying. It automatically puts your
posts in the same basket as those of Rocky and other idiots who
follow up like you do.
--
Zev Sero
zs...@idt.net
Joe Slater
>Joe Slater <j...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote:
>> [N]o, it is not divisive. You too may enjoy the
>> bountiful blessings of Vegemite. Vegemite! it makes you grow stronger
>> in every way! Vegemite! The richest source of B-group vitamins!
On 27 Nov 1997 06:33:06 GMT, Roger Williams <rog...@shell2.tiac.net>
wrote:
> Er, raw kelp is also high in vitamins, but I wouldn't recommend it
>to anybody. In know you're kidding, but in all seriousness, vegemite
>tastes like your foot's asleep. I used to keep a pair of bearded dragons
>(also Australian... pogona vitticeps) and the breeder recommended that
>their calcium dusted cricket diet be augmented with leafy greens and
>vegemite. Nope, even the stupid lizards knew better than to get near that
>funny smelling brown goop :) Are vegemite sandwiches really popular in
>Australia, or is that simply a myth perpetuated by that "Men at Work"
>song?
They're quite popular - as a sandwich. I mean, you don't serve them
for dinner, or as finger-food at elegant receptions. But wherever a
jam ("jelly") or peanut-butter sandwich would be appropriate, you'll
probably find a Vegemite one. Mmmm. It goes especially well with
cheese, and you can use it as a substitute for miso.
jds
mei...@erols.com
In soc.culture.jewish on Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:41:24 GMT
j...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Joe Slater) posted:
>>And discussing Mexicans and C Canadians
>>is snide and silly. This holiday, like the 4th of July, if from the United
>>States. We call ourselves Americans because there is no term like statesians,
>>but to try to make that sound somehow exclusive is just nasty. You knew
>>perfectly well what I meant.
>Calling yourselves "Americans" is precisely as sensible as the Swiss
>referring to themselves as citizens of Europe. It implies that your
>country alone represents the whole. The rest of the world does have a
>brief and euphonious term to describe your compatriots. It rhymes with
>thanks,
> jds
To the rest of the world, a Yankee is a citizen of the U.S.A.
To a citizen of the USA, a Yankee is a Northerner.
To a Northerner, a Yankee is a New Englander.
To a New Englander, a Yankee is someone from Maine.
To someone from Maine, a Yankee is someone who eats apple-pie for
breakfast.
(I don't understand the last line, but I accept it on faith!)
When talking to Latin Americans, I refer to us as Norte Americanos, as
they do. When they talk aboout Mexicans and Canadians they use
specific words but even they don't use any thing more specific than
Norte Americano for us. Es verdad, Jordi?
meir
Ron Aaron
Zev (and others who participated in this thread):
As it turns out, I avoided the entire issue by not saying the bracha. My
family is very non-observant, so the meaning would have been lost on them,
and as well - by the time the meal came around, my joy had been tempered ...
Kol tuv,
Ron
Zev Sero wrote in message <348f22d4...@news.idt.net>...
>On Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:18:13 -0800, "Ron Aaron"
><r...@mrrrossbayeng.com> wrote:
>
>I disagree. IMHO if your heart is truly full of joy at any event, you
>
>should say shehecheyanu if you are the only participant in the joy, or
>hatov vehameitiv if you have partners in the joy. So if you rarely
>see your family, and are truly overjoyed at seeing them, then you
>should say a bracha.
>Zev Sero
>zs...@idt.net
Michael Poppers
Joe Slater wrote:
Vegemite spread was also to be found in the traditional-Jewish kitchens I
visited while in New Zealand many moons ago. I don't know whether I asked
about this specifically or whether I can only assume that the local Rabbinate
hasn't permitted the use of many -- if any -- products of this type, besides
Vegemite, which don't explicitely have a reliable hechsher on the label.
Truth be told, the texture was more offputting than the taste; nevertheless,
when it comes to local spreads, I'll take s'chug in Israel to Vegemite "down
under" any time.
> jds
All the best from
--
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Michael Poppers @ Kaye, Scholer et al., LLP
% Peritus Clavis % 425 Park Avenue #12-07 =**= New York, NY 10022
% Machinae Vivit % tel: 212/836-8299 =***= fax: 212/836-6499,-8689
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% e-mail: see message header, and tweak!
Joe Slater
On Tue, 02 Dec 1997 16:47:52 -0500, Michael Poppers
<"MPoppers-"@-KayeScholer(d.o.t)com> wrote:
>Vegemite spread was also to be found in the traditional-Jewish kitchens I
>visited while in New Zealand many moons ago. I don't know whether I asked
>about this specifically or whether I can only assume that the local Rabbinate
>hasn't permitted the use of many -- if any -- products of this type, besides
>Vegemite, which don't explicitely have a reliable hechsher on the label.
The Jewish population in Australia and New Zealand isn't large enough
to get many companies to acknowledge it on the label. We have a few
organisations which report and publish on the status of processed
foods.
>Truth be told, the texture was more offputting than the taste; nevertheless,
>when it comes to local spreads, I'll take s'chug in Israel to Vegemite "down
>under" any time.
It's an acquired taste. Also, most outlanders use too much of it. It's
like anchovy paste; the merest smear suffices.
jds
Michael Poppers
Joe Slater wrote:
> On Tue, 02 Dec 1997 16:47:52 -0500, Michael Poppers
> <"MPoppers-"@-KayeScholer(d.o.t)com> wrote:
> >Vegemite spread was also to be found in the traditional-Jewish kitchens I
> >visited while in New Zealand many moons ago. I don't know whether I asked
> >about this specifically or whether I can only assume that the local Rabbinate
> >hasn't permitted the use of many -- if any -- products of this type, besides
> >Vegemite, which don't explicitely have a reliable hechsher on the label.
>
> The Jewish population in Australia and New Zealand isn't large enough
> to get many companies to acknowledge it on the label. We have a few
> organisations which report and publish on the status of processed
> foods.
>
This situation is similar to that of many other countries. I'd love to hear if
any of those countries' (e.g. Central and South America; many European countries)
natives have a favorite, regional, processed food that is recognized as Kosher but
doesn't have a Hechsher on the label.
On the other hand, there have been many products (such as certain cereals, e.g. GM
Cheerios, and candy, e.g. Hershey's products) in America that were recognized by
most Torah-true Jews as Kosher without their having a Hechsher on the label, so we
needn't only consider countries with small Jewish populations.
> >Truth be told, the texture was more offputting than the taste; nevertheless,
> >when it comes to local spreads, I'll take s'chug in Israel to Vegemite "down
> >under" any time.
>
> It's an acquired taste. Also, most outlanders use too much of it. It's
> like anchovy paste; the merest smear suffices.
>
Ditto s'chug: some people love it, some people hate it; more than a smear, and you
may no longer have a working tongue with which to taste any other food!
Micha Berger
On Wed, 03 Dec 1997 02:06:06 GMT, Joe Slater <j...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote:
: It's an acquired taste. Also, most outlanders use too much of it. It's
: like anchovy paste; the merest smear suffices.
Warning: Purim torah alert!
Actually, since vegamite is nosain ta'am lifgam (provides taste, but only in
a detrimental way) the requirements for kashrus are quite lenient.
-mi
--
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287 Help free Ron Arad, held by Syria 3990 days!
mi...@aishdas.org (16-Oct-86 - 9-Dec-97)
For a mitzvah is a candle, and the Torah its light.
http://aishdas.org -- Orthodox Judaism: Torah, Avodah, Chessed
Richard Schultz
Micha Berger (mi...@aishdas.org) wrote:
: Actually, since vegamite is nosain ta'am lifgam (provides taste, but only
: in a detrimental way) the requirements for kashrus are quite lenient.
I thought that it was "eino ra'ui achilah" (isn't fit to eat) and hence
was outside of the category of things to which the labels kosher/not
kosher apply.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@gefen.cc.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
-----
"How many boards would the Mongols hoard if the Mongol hordes got bored?"
Craig Winchell
B"H
Actually, if vegimite is yeast autolysate, I happen to enjoy it on rare
occasions. I understand that your posts are tongue in cheek, but the fact
is that whole populations (such as those in Australia, although I'm not
from there) grew up on the stuff, and I've seen Marmite, for instance, in
more than 1 Orthodox pantry. On the other hand, I could never wish to eat
brains, though they are evidently a Sephardic delicacy. Just goes to show
the effects of environment on food habits.
Craig Winchell
Drink GAN EDEN Wines!!
Richard Schultz <sch...@gefen.cc.biu.ac.il> wrote in article
<66l8um$gm0$2...@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>...
Micha Berger
I wrote:
> Actually, since vegamite is nosain ta'am lifgam (provides taste, but only
> in a detrimental way) the requirements for kashrus are quite lenient.
On 10 Dec 1997 05:22:30 GMT, Richard Schultz <sch...@gefen.cc.biu.ac.il> wrote:
aptly corrected me:
: I thought that it was "eino ra'ui achilah" (isn't fit to eat) and hence
: was outside of the category of things to which the labels kosher/not
: kosher apply.
Actually, if it truly eino ra'ui, one may not eat vegemite under the halachos
requiring that you "guard well your life".
-mi
--
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287 Help free Ron Arad, held by Syria 3991 days!
mi...@aishdas.org (16-Oct-86 - 10-Dec-97)
Richard Schultz
Micha Berger (mi...@aishdas.org) wrote:
: On 10 Dec 1997 05:22:30 GMT, Richard Schultz <sch...@gefen.cc.biu.ac.il> wrote:
: aptly corrected me:
: : I thought that it was "eino ra'ui achilah" (isn't fit to eat) and hence
: : was outside of the category of things to which the labels kosher/not
: : kosher apply.
: Actually, if it truly eino ra'ui, one may not eat vegemite under the
: halachos requiring that you "guard well your life".
For some reason, this reminds me of the famous (presumably apocryphal)
story about Rav Soloveitchik zt"l and the Pesadik toothpaste. It seems
someone asked him if toothpaste needs a special hechsher for Pesach, and
he reportedly replied no because it is "nifsal me'achilat kelev" (something
a dog wouldn't eat, and hence not in the category of things that can
be chametz). The person went home and gave some toothpaste to his dog,
who ate it. He went back to the Rav with the news, and received
a reply of "Nu, what do you expect if you use a dog for your posek?"
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@gefen.cc.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
-----
"an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"
David S. Maddison
In article <66jta1$46i$1...@news1.deshaw.com> 9 Dec 1997 16:57:37 GMT
Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
[..]
>Actually, since vegamite is nosain ta'am lifgam (provides taste, but only in
>a detrimental way) the requirements for kashrus are quite lenient.
Seriously though, Vegemite is available in a kosher version. Not all
production runs are kosher - only the first batch of a given
production run is kosher and is marked on local (Australian)
varieties. I am not sure if the export versions are kosher or not.
David Maddison
Micha Berger
On 10 Dec 1997 16:43:24 GMT, Richard Schultz <sch...@gefen.cc.biu.ac.il> wrote:
: For some reason, this reminds me of the famous (presumably apocryphal)
: story about Rav Soloveitchik zt"l...
Almost definitely. I heard other variants. Also...
: he reportedly replied no because it is "nifsal me'achilat kelev" (something
: a dog wouldn't eat, and hence not in the category of things that can
: be chametz).
The Rav wouldn't have mis-translated the expression. It means "something a dog
can't eat [and stay healthy]". A dog /would/ eat pretty much whatever you
give it. I have some chewed up pants, slippers, and stuffed animals to prove
the point.
However, toothpaste will give him (and people, if a k'zayis [volume of an
olive] is eaten) diarrhea.
-mi
--
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287 Help free Ron Arad, held by Syria 3992 days!
mi...@aishdas.org (16-Oct-86 - 11-Dec-97)
mei...@erols.com
In soc.culture.jewish on Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:28:19 GMT
madd...@connexus.apana.org.au (David S. Maddison) posted:
>[..]
>David Maddison
So what is vegemite. Does it taste like vitameatavegamin?
What about marblite. Does it feel like marbles, or taste like
marmosets.
We here in the USA, I think have no idea what this stuff is or what it
is made of.
meir
Stanley Klein
mei...@erols.com wrote:
:
: So what is vegemite. Does it taste like vitameatavegamin?
:
Vegemite is the ground up leftovers from old Vegematic commercials.
Stan Klein
David S. Maddison
In article <66sa5u$b7b$2...@winter.news.erols.com> Fri, 12 Dec 1997
21:25:58 GMT mei...@erols.com wrote:
[..]
>So what is vegemite. Does it taste like vitameatavegamin?
>
>What about marblite. Does it feel like marbles, or taste like
>marmosets.
>
>We here in the USA, I think have no idea what this stuff is or what it
>is made of.
Vegemite is a "concentrated yeast extract" which has the approximate
colour, consistency and taste of coal tar, but it is edible, and is
considered an Australian national cultural and gastronomic icon. As
Joe Slater mentioned, outlanders typically use far too much of it. It
should be used _sparingly_.
You might like to check out the following URL's:
http://www.ozchannel.com/veglouvre/index.html
http://www.vegemite.com.au/
David Maddison
mei...@erols.com
In soc.culture.jewish on 13 Dec 1997 20:29:01 GMT skl...@cpcug.org
(Stanley Klein) posted:
>Stan Klein
ROTFLOL
meir
Roger Williams
Stanley Klein <skl...@cpcug.org> wrote:
> mei...@erols.com wrote:
> :
> : So what is vegemite. Does it taste like vitameatavegamin?
> :
> Vegemite is the ground up leftovers from old Vegematic commercials.
Nah. Even that would have to taste better than vegemite. I think
someone nailed it on the head when they suggested that God frowns
on people eating dangerous food. I would imagine lutefisk falls into
this category as well, but as it has been said many times many ways,
CYLOR.
> Stan Klein