Information Please
Linda
I am not Jewish and no nothing about the customs of the holidays, but my
daughters boyfriend is and I would like some information on Hanakkah. I
would like for her to understand and celebrate this holiday with him as she
will celebrate our Christmas. I am not sure that he celebrates this
holiday since they live in Colorado and his parents are in New York. I
thought this would be a nice way to bring both of them closer to religion.
I would like to know just a brief summary of the holiday, what is involved
and where I could go on the Internet to get what is needed? You can email
me or post to this group I will check again.
Thankyou in advance
Linda
Murray
Here is the URL for Judaism 101; http://www.jewfaq.org/ it is most informative
about much of Judaism, including the holidays. To jump right to a description
of Chanukah go to http://www.jewfaq.org/holiday7.htm.
Codially,
Murray
Linda wrote:
--
* Getting older is mandatory, getting wiser is optional.
* Everyone causes happiness ... some when they come, some when they
leave
Zvi the Fiddler
lisa...@bigfoot.com wrote in message
<72ohvf$olk$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <364f5...@news.net-magic.net>,
> "Linda" <li...@net-magic.net> wrote:
>> Hello Group,
>> I am not Jewish and no nothing about the customs of the holidays,
but my
>> daughters boyfriend is and I would like some information on
Hanakkah
>Hi Linda,
>The holiday of Hanukkah is the celebration of a victory. The victory
in
>question was in a civil war between fanatical Orthodox Jews and Jews
who
>wanted to be more like the surrounding non-Jewish population
...
>So please tell your daughter's boyfriend that Hanukkah is an eight
day holiday
>that we celebrate to commemorate the victory of people who would have
just as
>soon killed him as looked at him.
-------------------------------------------
Linda,
Please don't assume that all -- or even most -- Jews are like Lisa.
And actually, I think she will agree with that.
Zvi the Fiddler
lisa...@bigfoot.com
"Linda" <li...@net-magic.net> wrote:
> Hello Group,
> I am not Jewish and no nothing about the customs of the holidays, but my
> would like for her to understand and celebrate this holiday with him as she
> will celebrate our Christmas. I am not sure that he celebrates this
> holiday since they live in Colorado and his parents are in New York. I
> thought this would be a nice way to bring both of them closer to religion.
> I would like to know just a brief summary of the holiday, what is involved
> and where I could go on the Internet to get what is needed? You can email
> me or post to this group I will check again.
> Thankyou in advance
> Linda
Hi Linda,
The holiday of Hanukkah is the celebration of a victory. The victory in
question was in a civil war between fanatical Orthodox Jews and Jews who
wanted to be more like the surrounding non-Jewish population. They wanted to
adopt the customs of the non-Jews; celebrate their holidays with them, even
date them and marry them.
The fanatics wouldn't accept this.
So in order to protect their rights, the Jews who wanted to be closer to the
non-Jews asked for protection from the Syrian Greek kingdom, which had been
trying to create an atmosphere of religious tolerance, where people would
share similar beliefs. They felt that in this way, it would be possible to
avoid conflict along religious lines. The only real holdouts against this
policy were the fanatical Orthodox Jews, who absolutely refused to grant any
validity to any religious conception other than their own.
The civil war began when the leader of these fanatics, one Mattithiyas,
actually killed a Jew who was worshipping together with the Greeks. The
Greeks saw this as a serious threat, I think you'll agree understandably so,
and ended up bringing in troops to protect the friendlier Jews.
The war lasted for some years, and despite the fact that there were foreign
troops involved, the basic conflict was between Jews who wanted to live in
harmony with their non-Jewish neighbors in a spirit of mutual respect, and a
bunch of ragged fanatics who insisted that only their way was correct. These
fanatics engaged in guerrilla warfare until even the Greeks decided it wasn't
worth it anymore and left. The Greek-friendly Jews remained prisoners in a
fortress for a long time after that, while the fanatics consolidated their
conquest of Israel.
You may have heard of a miracle that happened regarding some oil. What
happened was that the candelabra in the Temple had been destroyed during all
the conflict. As a makeshift effort, the fanatics used the very spears that
they had until recently been killing Greeks and Jews with, strapping them
together into a temporary candelabra. They had only one day's worth of oil
to use, and it would have taken another week to get more. Miraculously, the
oil lasted for eight full days, which the fanatics took as a sign that God
approved of their actions, particularly since the flames burned all that time
upon their bloody weapons. We light candles for eight days to remember those
very flames.
So please tell your daughter's boyfriend that Hanukkah is an eight day holiday
that we celebrate to commemorate the victory of people who would have just as
soon killed him as looked at him.
Merry Christmas,
Lisa
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
lisa...@bigfoot.com
Linda
I would like to thank everyone in the group who provided me with some very
enlightening information on the subject of Hanukkah. I must confess that I
am part of the Christian group, that thought this was like a "Jewish
Christmas" type holiday. Of course I was very mistaken in that. But I was
very grateful for the Web links on your religion. As a Christian (Baptist)
we tend to put more emphasis on the New Testament and quoting from the Old
Testament was more less to prove a point. All in all my intentions were
sincere when it came to the children (20 and 23 yrs old) in their theater
of life, religion seems to be in the far seat in the back. So this was my
intent to bring some spiritually and respect and knowledge of each of their
beliefs AND hopefully move those beliefs to a closer seat in their lives.
Even though this is not a really significant holiday in the Jewish religion,
it is a starting place to begin and I think that I will see if I can find on
the Net a Menorah and Candles and print the pages of the meaning of the
holiday (for my daughter) and let them do this together and hopefully it
will give them some peace, if only for a moment. Observing nothing will
gain nothing. I appreciate the honesty of the posters and hope I did not
cause any misunderstandings among the group, as I am just a passerby hoping
to gain some information that I hope will benefit the children. Within my
own religion there is always differences in interpretation of what is said
or read. But I respect all the interpretations and do not stand in
judgment, I am certainly not worthly of that. Again thankyou all and I
have saved all the sites that were offered to me and will educated myself
also, while I persue this little mission for the children.
May everyone be blessed with health and happiness always.
Linda
Murray
I would like to apologize for the warped posting made by Lisabeth; I have never
seen such a distorted view of Chanukkah presented anywhere. In addition to the
link I provided earlier another, more detailed (and lengthy) discussion of this
holiday is given at http://www.jcn18.com/holiday/hanukkah/strass1.htm
It may be more information than you ever wanted to know.
Cordially,
Murray
Linda wrote:
> Hello Group,
> I am not Jewish and no nothing about the customs of the holidays, but my
> daughters boyfriend is and I would like some information on Hanakkah. I
> would like for her to understand and celebrate this holiday with him as she
> will celebrate our Christmas. I am not sure that he celebrates this
> holiday since they live in Colorado and his parents are in New York. I
> thought this would be a nice way to bring both of them closer to religion.
> I would like to know just a brief summary of the holiday, what is involved
> and where I could go on the Internet to get what is needed? You can email
> me or post to this group I will check again.
> Thankyou in advance
> Linda
--
lisa...@bigfoot.com
rhoda-murra...@erols.com wrote:
> Linda:
> I would like to apologize for the warped posting made by Lisabeth; I have
> never seen such a distorted view of Chanukkah presented anywhere.
My name is Lisa, Murray. Not Lisabeth. And if you haven't seen that view of
Hanukkah before, perhaps it's time to learn more about it.
Personally, I don't know who exactly you are to be apologizing for something
that I said. Do you or do you not agree that the Maccabees and those who
fought on their side had zero tolerance for things like intermarriage? Are
you trying to hide that fact? Are you pleased that Linda's daughter's
boyfriend is dating a non-Jew? Is this something you want to encourage?
> In addition to the link I provided earlier another, more detailed (and
> lengthy) discussion of this holiday is given at
> http://www.jcn18.com/holiday/hanukkah/strass1.htm
> It may be more information than you ever wanted to know.
Well, what I posted was obviously more than *you* ever wanted to know, Murray.
Lisa
--
Shmirat Ha-Lashon: It's not just a good idea; it's the law.
Micha Berger
The "bad guys" were the Yevanim (Hellenists) and Misyavnim (those who Yavan-ed
themselves; i.e. the Hellenized assimilationists). After all, it was a Jew
named Jason who invited Zeus into the Temple.
Notice although that we sing in Maoz Tzur about "they broke open the walls of
my citadel". When you check the mishnah in Middos, however, you find that the
only "wall" broken in the Temple was a waist high wicker "mechitzah" that
marked the point at which only Jews only may pass. The focus was on Jewish
sepratism.
-mi
--
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287 Help free Yehuda Katz, held by Syria 5980 days!
mi...@aishdas.org (11-Jun-82 - 17-Nov-98)
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.
http://www.aishdas.org -- Orthodox Judaism: Torah, Avodah, Chessed
Zvi the Fiddler
lisa...@bigfoot.com wrote in message
<72rk9j$d4u$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Do you or do you not agree that the Maccabees and those who
>fought on their side had zero tolerance for things like
intermarriage? Are
>you trying to hide that fact? Are you pleased that Linda's
daughter's
>boyfriend is dating a non-Jew? Is this something you want to
encourage?
The comment that the Macabees would have killed the boyfriend was
totally out of line. Not only was it incredibly rude and obnoxious,
it was not clearly accurate. Remember, Mattathias killed the Jew in
Modiin -- not for dressing or marrying Greek, but for worshipping
Greek -- i.e. bowing down before the statue of Zeus. Moreover, to try
to translate the politcal-religious situation at that time to the
current era just doesn't go.
Even a Baptist doesn;t deserve Lisa's response.
(Zvi, don;t get carried away with your generosity.)
And, BTW, considering your mailing adress, you should not be
surprised -- or rude --when people call you "Liz." YOu can correct
someone politely.
Zvi the Preaching Fiddler
rafael
>
> To put in my 2 cents, the story was much as Lisa tells it.
>
> The "bad guys" were the Yevanim (Hellenists) and Misyavnim (those who Yavan-ed
> themselves; i.e. the Hellenized assimilationists). After all, it was a Jew
> named Jason who invited Zeus into the Temple.
[You had to remind me--my English name is Jason.]
Even that web site that Murray recommended alluded to this situation
(although it downplayed its centrality to the war):
"Some Jews eagerly flocked to the gymnasium, symbol of the Greek
emphasis on the beauty and strength of the body. Others resisted
Hellenism and died as martyrs."
Rafael
rafael
> The comment that the Macabees would have killed the boyfriend was
> totally out of line. Not only was it incredibly rude and obnoxious,
> it was not clearly accurate. Remember, Mattathias killed the Jew in
> Modiin -- not for dressing or marrying Greek, but for worshipping
> Greek -- i.e. bowing down before the statue of Zeus. Moreover, to try
> to translate the politcal-religious situation at that time to the
> current era just doesn't go.
I thought her translation was quite good. Granted, we are not
physically at war with one another, but the kind of ideological war that
we see here daily is qualitatively the same. Chanukah is a metaphor for
the kulturkampf we are facing; a metaphor in which the "heroes" were the
traditionalists, and the "bad guys" were the assimilationists and the
gentiles whose culture they embraced.
Rafael
Colin Rosenthal
rafael <raf...@nyct.net> wrote:
>I thought her translation was quite good. Granted, we are not
>physically at war with one another, but the kind of ideological war that
>we see here daily is qualitatively the same. Chanukah is a metaphor for
>the kulturkampf we are facing; a metaphor in which the "heroes" were the
>traditionalists, and the "bad guys" were the assimilationists and the
>gentiles whose culture they embraced.
However the real history of that period is a lot more complicated than that,
revolving as it did around the power struggles between the Seleucid and
Ptolemaic empires with different factions among the Jews being sympathetic
to the different rulers at different times. If there is one thing one can say
for certain about the latter part of the Hellenistic period it is that it was
rarely, if ever, "Good Guys" v. "Bad Guys". Then you have to add in the extra
complication that Antiochus IV seems to have been more than a little mentally
unstable. (At cheder they taught
us he was nicknamed "epimenes" but it was many years later that I learned
that the epithet was actually given to him by his own people, not by the
Jews.)
The oppression of the Jews (including the murder of circumcised babies) was
real enough, but frankly I don't see why I should find the Maccabees any
more attractive than the mullahs or Taliban they so closely resemble.
--
Colin Rosenthal
High Altitude Observatory
Boulder, Colorado
rose...@hao.ucar.edu
rafael
> However the real history of that period is a lot more complicated than that,
> revolving as it did around the power struggles between the Seleucid and
> Ptolemaic empires with different factions among the Jews being sympathetic
> to the different rulers at different times. If there is one thing one can say
> for certain about the latter part of the Hellenistic period it is that it was
> rarely, if ever, "Good Guys" v. "Bad Guys". Then you have to add in the extra
> complication that Antiochus IV seems to have been more than a little mentally
> unstable. (At cheder they taught
> us he was nicknamed "epimenes" but it was many years later that I learned
> that the epithet was actually given to him by his own people, not by the
> Jews.)
>
> The oppression of the Jews (including the murder of circumcised babies) was
> real enough, but frankly I don't see why I should find the Maccabees any
> more attractive than the mullahs or Taliban they so closely resemble.
All this is well and good, but if we look at where the Jews stood on the
issue, and which side is celebrated until this day, we find that
Chanukah is indeed a partisan holiday that commemorates not only a
victory over gentile oppressors and the miracle that followed it, but
also a victory over Jewish assimilationists. As such, it is rather
ironic that Chanukah has come to be seen as "the Jewish Xmas" by many
(if not most) Jews and and gentiles here in America.
Rafael
Colin Rosenthal
rafael <raf...@nyct.net> wrote:
>Colin Rosenthal wrote:
>> The oppression of the Jews (including the murder of circumcised babies) was
>> real enough, but frankly I don't see why I should find the Maccabees any
>> more attractive than the mullahs or Taliban they so closely resemble.
>
>All this is well and good, but if we look at where the Jews stood on the
>issue, and which side is celebrated until this day, we find that
>Chanukah is indeed a partisan holiday that commemorates not only a
>victory over gentile oppressors and the miracle that followed it, but
>also a victory over Jewish assimilationists. As such, it is rather
>ironic that Chanukah has come to be seen as "the Jewish Xmas" by many
>(if not most) Jews and and gentiles here in America.
On this I agree with you. If Jews stopped to think about what the
Maccabees stood for I think a large number would begin to question their
reasons for celebrating chanukah.
Zvi the Fiddler
Murray wrote in message <36510715...@erols.com>...
>Linda:
>I would like to apologize for the warped posting made by Lisabeth;
Actually, except for the absolutely outrageous last comment (about the
Maccabees killing the boyfriend) it was probably more accurate than we
would like to admit. I doubt the Macabees were into warm fuzzies.
Zvi the Fiddler
lisa...@bigfoot.com
"Zvi the Fiddler" <Fiddl...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> lisa...@bigfoot.com wrote in message
> <72rk9j$d4u$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
> >Do you or do you not agree that the Maccabees and those who
> >fought on their side had zero tolerance for things like intermarriage? Are
> >you trying to hide that fact? Are you pleased that Linda's daughter's
> >boyfriend is dating a non-Jew? Is this something you want to encourage?
>
> totally out of line. Not only was it incredibly rude and obnoxious,
> it was not clearly accurate. Remember, Mattathias killed the Jew in
> Modiin -- not for dressing or marrying Greek, but for worshipping
> Greek -- i.e. bowing down before the statue of Zeus. Moreover, to try
> to translate the politcal-religious situation at that time to the
> current era just doesn't go.
<yawn> And here's Zvi again with his obsession about idolatry being the be
all and end all of what Judaism is against. The Maccabees weren't one issue
wonders like you, Zvi. They were into the whole Torah. Shabbat and kashrut
and not marrying out and all.
And Zvi, the only reason you want to see the situation as so different is
that you want to be able to celebrate Hanukkah without having to consider
that you're really celebrating the defeat of people like you by people like
me.
> Even a Baptist doesn;t deserve Lisa's response.
>
> (Zvi, don;t get carried away with your generosity.)
So now you'll bash a perfectly reasonable non-Jew who came here asking for
information because you don't like her religion? And then criticize me for
knocking yours?
> And, BTW, considering your mailing adress, you should not be
> surprised -- or rude --when people call you "Liz." YOu can correct
> someone politely.
When I sign all of my posts "Lisa", it doesn't take a genius to know that's my
name.
lisa...@bigfoot.com
Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> To put in my 2 cents, the story was much as Lisa tells it.
>
> The "bad guys" were the Yevanim (Hellenists) and Misyavnim (those who Yavan-ed
> themselves; i.e. the Hellenized assimilationists). After all, it was a Jew
> named Jason who invited Zeus into the Temple.
I'd even add to that. Jason was a close relative of the Maccabees. Any of
the more political non-Orthodox on this newsgroup, if they'd been alive at
the time, would have claimed that the entire war was an excuse for a coup by
the Mattitiyau line to take the High Priesthood away from their cousins.
The miracle of the oil was more than just a divine stamp of approval on the
civil war that had just ended; it was a sign that God, at least, didn't see it
in this cynical way.
> Notice although that we sing in Maoz Tzur about "they broke open the walls of
> my citadel". When you check the mishnah in Middos, however, you find that the
> only "wall" broken in the Temple was a waist high wicker "mechitzah" that
> marked the point at which only Jews only may pass. The focus was on Jewish
> sepratism.
<nod>
Mike Medved
: -------------------------------------------
: Linda,
: Please don't assume that all -- or even most -- Jews are like Lisa.
: And actually, I think she will agree with that.
: Zvi the Fiddler
Are you disputing the veracity of the account that Lisa gave?
Zvi the Fiddler
Mike Medved wrote in message ...
were into warm fuzzies.
But the final comment about them killing the Jewish boyfriend was
totally out of line. Mike -- would you have made a statement like
that?
ZVi the Fiddler
Mike Medved
: Mike Medved wrote in message ...
I might have. Macabbees were religious zealots. They certainly
could have decided to do what Lisa says. In any case, Lisa made
the comment to illustrate the ridiculousness of the original
question that was asked - that is, to use Hanukka, which basically
celebrates religious zealotry and "intolerance", in order to further
a romantic relationship between a Jewish guy and a non-Jewish girl.
I think she managed to make her point in her usual laconic and succinct
manner.
Zvi the Fiddler
>: But the final comment about them killing the Jewish boyfriend was
>: totally out of line. Mike -- would you have made a statement like
>: that?
>
>I might have.
A shame.
>Macabbees were religious zealots.
Irrelevant.
Zvi the Fiddler
Mike Medved
: Mike Medved wrote in message ...
Completely relevant. Lisa has speculated that what the Macabbees
would have done to a Jewish man who intermarried. What do you think
they would have done?
Zvi the Fiddler
Mike Medved wrote in message ...
>Completely relevant. Lisa has speculated that what the Macabbees
>would have done to a Jewish man who intermarried. What do you think
>they would have done?
Irrelevant for two different reasons -- firstly, the comment applies
the people of one era to the situation of another. There was a
cultural literal war going on then and any of us today who would be
transported back to that era could find our lives in danger from one
side or the other. We use the word assimilation to describe both now
and then, but what goes on today is nothing like what went on under
Antiochus as you and I both know. The action of dating a non-Jew
today is in too many ways very different from the action of dating a
non-Jew then to allow comparisons.
To put it a different way, you might as well say that the Macabees
would have killed Boaz for marrying Ruth.
The second reason is that even if it were accurate, it would be plain
and simple rudeness -- roughly the equivalent of a white person saying
to a black person -- "200 years ago I could have bought and sold you."
Another consideration -- aren't we supposed to avoid doing that which
we would hate having done to ourselves?
Zvi the Fiddler
Binyamin Dissen
wrote:
:>Mike Medved wrote in message ...
:>>Completely relevant. Lisa has speculated that what the Macabbees
:>>would have done to a Jewish man who intermarried. What do you think
:>>they would have done?
Well written, both Mike and Lisa.
:>Irrelevant for two different reasons -- firstly, the comment applies
:>the people of one era to the situation of another. There was a
:>cultural literal war going on then and any of us today who would be
:>transported back to that era could find our lives in danger from one
:>side or the other.
Huh?
:> We use the word assimilation to describe both now
:>and then, but what goes on today is nothing like what went on under
:>Antiochus as you and I both know.
I think it was about the same.
The hellenists thought that the proper approach was to 'modernize' the Jewish
religion, as the current reformed/conservative wish to do.
:> The action of dating a non-Jew
:>today is in too many ways very different from the action of dating a
:>non-Jew then to allow comparisons.
In what ways?
In either time it is a betrayal of Judaism.
:>To put it a different way, you might as well say that the Macabees
:>would have killed Boaz for marrying Ruth.
Why? Ruth converted.
:>The second reason is that even if it were accurate, it would be plain
:>and simple rudeness -- roughly the equivalent of a white person saying
:>to a black person -- "200 years ago I could have bought and sold you."
What is the comparison?
As in the days of the Macabees, there are those (perhaps a majority) Jews who
wish to 'modernize' and adapt Judaism to fit the popular culture.
Side note - there still is quite a bit of slavery in the lands of people with
Farakans religion, Islam.
:>Another consideration -- aren't we supposed to avoid doing that which
:>we would hate having done to ourselves?
If one does not like to be disturbed, one should not disturb a rapist?
Simply a matter of where you claim no red lines but you really mean the only
applicable red lines are those that YOU think are proper and YOU would deny
others the right to define red lines.
--
Binyami...@theoffice.net
Binyamin Dissen <bdi...@netvision.net.il>
Jacob Love
Mike Medved <med...@netcom.com> wrote:
>Completely relevant. Lisa has speculated that what the Macabbees
>would have done to a Jewish man who intermarried. What do you think
>they would have done?
Which Maccabees? The later ones intermarried quite a bit themselves, so
I think this is just another one of your pointless tirades. The plain,
clear truth here is that over time Judaism has gone through periods in
which intermarriage was either condemned or tolerated to greater and
lesser degrees. Or maybe Solomon building pagan temples for his wives
or Esther marrying a Persian king doesn't count in how you figure these
things out.
--
-----------------------
Jack F. Love
Opinions expressed are mine alone, unless you happen to agree
Herman Rubin
Binyamin Dissen <Binyami...@theoffice.net> wrote:
>On 19 Nov 1998 07:00:31 GMT "Zvi the Fiddler" <Fiddl...@worldnet.att.net>
>wrote:
.....................
>:> We use the word assimilation to describe both now
>:>and then, but what goes on today is nothing like what went on under
>:>Antiochus as you and I both know.
>I think it was about the same.
>The hellenists thought that the proper approach was to 'modernize' the Jewish
>religion, as the current reformed/conservative wish to do.
Many aspects had been thoroughly Hellenized. For more than 150 years,
the Jews had been living in a Hellenistic society. Even the name for
the religious court, sanhedrin, is of Greek origin.
It is hard to tell how much things changed, due to the lack of records
on the precise situations at the various times. What brought on the
revolt, at least according to what we have, dubious as that may be,
was the attempt of the Seleucids to Hellenize the religion.
I doubt that you will find Reform Jews putting up a cross or a statue
of Mary or any other really Christian symbol. Antiochus converted
the Temple into a shrine for Greek gods, and in particular Zeus.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
hru...@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Zvi the Fiddler
Binyamin Dissen wrote in message
<365c1321...@news.netvision.net.il>...
now
>:>and then, but what goes on today is nothing like what went on under
>:>Antiochus as you and I both know.
>
>I think it was about the same.
The difference was that just before the revolution broke out, the
degree of forced assimilation was very high. Voluntary assimilation
does not spark armed conflict.
>:> The action of dating a non-Jew
>:>today is in too many ways very different from the action of dating
a
>:>non-Jew then to allow comparisons.
>
>In what ways?
>
>In either time it is a betrayal of Judaism.
Not if there is a chance the non-Jew will become Jewish. IN
Antiochus' time there was no chance -- now there is.
>:>To put it a different way, you might as well say that the Macabees
>:>would have killed Boaz for marrying Ruth.
>Why? Ruth converted.
Right. IN that era, conversion was possible.
>:>The second reason is that even if it were accurate, it would be
plain
>:>and simple rudeness -- roughly the equivalent of a white person
saying
>:>to a black person -- "200 years ago I could have bought and sold
you."
>What is the comparison?
If you don;t see it, I don;t know how to explain it further..
>:>Another consideration -- aren't we supposed to avoid doing that
which
>:>we would hate having done to ourselves?
>If one does not like to be disturbed, one should not disturb a
rapist?
The woman who ask or the Jewish boyfriend are hardly in the position
of rapists.
>Simply a matter of where you claim no red lines but you really mean
the only
>applicable red lines are those that YOU think are proper and YOU
would deny
>others the right to define red lines.
And we can argue forever as to whose red lines are valid.
Zvi the Fiddler
Susan Cohen
Zvi the Fiddler wrote:
> Mike Medved wrote in message ...
>
> >Completely relevant. Lisa has speculated that what the Macabbees
> >would have done to a Jewish man who intermarried. What do you think
> >they would have done?
>
> Irrelevant for two different reasons -- firstly, the comment applies
> the people of one era to the situation of another.
Right - that's why Lisa's making the comment in the first place isn't as
harsh as it seems.
> There was a
> cultural literal war going on then and any of us today who would be
> transported back to that era could find our lives in danger from one
> side or the other.
Now *that's* irrelevent!
> We use the word assimilation to describe both now
> and then, but what goes on today is nothing like what went on under
> Antiochus as you and I both know. The action of dating a non-Jew
> today is in too many ways very different from the action of dating a
> non-Jew then to allow comparisons.
But the Macabees wouldn't have seen it this way!
> To put it a different way, you might as well say that the Macabees
> would have killed Boaz for marrying Ruth.
No - Ruth converted.
> The second reason is that even if it were accurate, it would be plain
> and simple rudeness -- roughly the equivalent of a white person saying
> to a black person -- "200 years ago I could have bought and sold you."
Rude it might be, but absolutely true.
> Another consideration -- aren't we supposed to avoid doing that which
> we would hate having done to ourselves?
Lisa was being *brutal*, but not unfactual.
Susan
Simcha Streltsov
: Even though this is not a really significant holiday in the Jewish religion,
: it is a starting place to begin and I think that I will see if I can find on
well, it is sort of significant - Jews were very close to loosing their
ideological/spritiual battle to the hellenistic culture - if not
Hanuka, or a similar event, we might not have Judaism now - so this
newsgroup owes a lot to Maccabees - we could all have been reading
soc.culture.zeos now.
but then your newsgroup, and religion, owes them even more - if not
Hanuka, we might not have Cristianity at all. Thus, it seems that
Christians should be the first to celebrate this victory over
the pagan culture - I dont know why they are not interested
Simcha