Marriage at Age 14 (was Re: Condoms at Jewish camps)
Miriam Wolfe
MA...@WEIZMANN.weizmann.ac.il (Michael Shimshoni) wrote:
In: <mawolfe-1903...@lucky162.acns.nwu.edu>
maw...@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Miriam Wolfe) asks Amitai Halevi:
>In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.950319...@aluf.technion.ac.il>,
>chr...@technion.ac.il (Amitai Halevi) wrote:
>
>% On 9 Mar 1995, Robert Rabinoff wrote:
>%
>% > Date: 9 MAR 1995 06:03:32 GMT
>% > From: Robert Rabinoff <rabi...@csn.net>
>% > Newgroups: soc.culture.jewish
>% > Subject: Re: Condoms at Jewish camps
>% >
>% > We have been studying Ketubot at our shul, and one of the participants
>% > pointed out that it wasn't so much of a stretch to demand that people
>avoid
>% > premarital sex when they married shortly after puberty (14, 15..). Since
>% > nowadays marriage is often postponed till the 20's or 30's, how is that
>% > drive to be sanctified? As one who feels he was too young at 25 when
>% > he married I don't think marrying kids off at such an early age is a very
>% > good idea, especially when people demand so much more nowadays of their
>% > relationship; on the other hand, how is that sexual energy to be
>channelled
>% > so that it brings holiness to life rather than degrading it?
>% >
>% Frankly, I have my doubts about whether there are ways of channeling
>% sexual energy so that it "brings holiness to life". Moreover, I
>% cannot agree that premarital sex (practiced with discrimination)
>% "degrades life", or - the average age of at which people get
>% married nowadays being what it is - that it is avoidable.
>%
>% The problem was addressed in the Talmud (Kiddushin 29b), but
>% the solution - adequate at the time - is no longer applicable.
>% Here is the citation without further comment:
>%
>% "Rav Hisda praised Rav Hamnuna to Rav Huna, saying that he is a
>% great man. [Rav Huna] said: when he shows up bring him to me.
>% When he came [Rav Huna] saw that [Rav Hamnuna] was not wearing
>% a shawl [Rashi: As was the custom of married men, who used
>% to cover their heads]. He told him: Don't see my face until
>% you are married! Rav Huna was expressing his customary
>% opinion; he used to say: Anyone who is unmarried at twenty
>% spends all his days sinning. [The Talmud asks: Can he have
>% meant `actually] sinning'? Say rather `he spends all his days
>% thinking sinful thoughts'.
>% Rava said, and this is also credited to the school of R. Ishmael:
>% God waits until a man is twenty for him to get himself a wife;
>% if he reaches twenty and is still unmarried, He says, `Blast his
>% bones!'.
>% Rav Hisda said: If I am better [probably `a better scholar' _A.H.]
>% than my colleagues, it is because I was married at sixteen; if I
>% had been married at fourteen I could have told Satan: `An arrow
>% into your eyes! [Rashi: I could have defied him - Satan is the
>% evil inclination - and not fear being tempted by him]."
>%
>% Amitai
>%
>Amitai,
>You said nothing in support of your statement " The problem was addressed
>in the Talmud (Kiddushin 29b), but the solution - adequate at the time -
>is no longer applicable."
>Please explain why you think the gemorrah's opinion is no longer adequate.
>I happen to emphatically disagree with your assertion but nonetheless I am
>interested to know why you think this way.
I would consider that in the year 5755, for men getting married not
later than 20, preferably at age 16 or even 14, is considered somehow
disturbing in their mental development. While in his time Rabbi Hisda
reached his elevated level as a scholar *because* he married at 16, at
present, with most schooling continuing well past the age of 20, a
married man would be at some disadvantage and most likely not be
considered such a big shot scholar. I discuss only the marriage age
of men, although IMO that of women is equally important. I do so
because the Talmud, not surprisingly, only discussed men in that
respect (and in most others). In the time of the Talmud, someone like
Ms Miriam Wolfe's, her age of getting married, and chances of it
influencing her studies, was not on the agenda.
As I know nothing about Ms Wolfe and her personal circumstances I must
assume that she belongs to that group of orthodox Jews, for whom
secular education for men is of no importance, and that she would be
very happy if her sons would get married at age 14 just to become
accomplished devil archers.
>Miriam Wolfe
>Those Who Make Unqualified Assumptions, ARE Assumed To Be FOOLS, until proven
>otherwise.
I hope, for her sake, that in that quotation Ms Wolfe did not have in
her mind one of the most knowledgeable people in Jewish tradition and
other matters on this list. Anyhow, perhaps she will see now what
possible consideration could have made Amitai Halevi write as he did.
As we are at it, could Ms Wolfe kindly explain why she "emphatically"
thinks that it is a good idea these days for men to marry very early
and what steps she has taken to change the laws of the country she
lives in to lower marriage age for men to 14. Anyhow I am (very)
interested to know why you think this way.
Michael Shimshoni
---------------------------
With all due respect, you , and others, are dealing and reacting to
spliced material.
The original discussion, was about pre-marital sex. Someone suggested
that pre-marital sex should have some sanctity, since people marry later.
A few replied, it is not permissilbe. Then Amitai, pulled out a gemorrah
quote, to show support for his pro-premarital sex argument.
I thought that it was interesting that Amitai was using gemorrah as a
support for pre-marital sex, something which is, to my understanding
issur.
The attacks on my alledged and non-iterated opinions on marriage are
figments of some people's active imaginations.
For the record........
I am college-educated.
My husband holds advanced degrees in science.
All of our children are urged to go to college after yeshiva.
Apologies are gladly accepted, from all those who presumed to know what I
thought.
Miriam Wolfe
Miriam Wolfe
maw...@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Miriam Wolfe) wrote:
In article <950328.16013...@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL>,
(Michael Shimshoni) wrote:
>Miriam Wolfe
Michael Shimshoni
Miriam Wolfe
PS: To avoid further assumptions are made about my attitude or opinions,
I will tell you :
My parents were married in their teens. I was born while my mother was
still a teenager, so were several of my siblings. I have intimate
knowledge/experience being raised by well meaning, but young people-----I
strongly reccommend marrying later, like in your twenties. People who know
me--know that.
I am the manager of a research lab. I do research. It is research on
sexuality and behavior. My personal opinion is that teens should wait
until marriage to have sex.
Alan Horowitz
Where is any data showing that being married causes a person to not be a
good scholar?!? Clicking-your-heels-and-saying-you-KNOW-it's-true
arguments not accepted, please.
Some MD's don't finish all their studying till they're in their 30's. Are
you suggesting that they should wait till mid-30's to marry?
There's 3 major reasons why people got married so young in the
pre-industrial era:
a. The taboo on pre-marital sex was real
b. People died in their 20's & 30's, quite routinely
c. There was an effective system of apprenticeship
existing in the trades and crafts.
--
Alan Horowitz
al...@infi.net
Adam Jeremy Schorr
: Where is any data showing that being married causes a person to not be a
: good scholar?!? Clicking-your-heels-and-saying-you-KNOW-it's-true
: arguments not accepted, please.
Very few yeshiva students who learned before and after they got married
will tell you that they learned as well after they got married. There are
very good reasons for this: 1) Spouses generally want to spend time with
each other 2) Marriage in Torah observing families has a tendency to
bring children into the picture.
Michael Shimshoni
Victor Yodaiken
Miriam Wolfe <maw...@merle.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
>With all due respect, you , and others, are dealing and reacting to
>spliced material.
>The original discussion, was about pre-marital sex. Someone suggested
>that pre-marital sex should have some sanctity, since people marry later.
>A few replied, it is not permissilbe. Then Amitai, pulled out a gemorrah
>quote, to show support for his pro-premarital sex argument.
>I thought that it was interesting that Amitai was using gemorrah as a
>support for pre-marital sex, something which is, to my understanding
>issur.
But you failed to respond substantively to Amitai's argument.
As Amitai pointed out, the gemorrah quite plainly states that
young men are likely to obsess about sex and that marriage
is the only way to bring this obsession within bounds. In fact,
it is argued that a great scholar owes his greatness to his
marriage at 14. Here we note the wisdom of the sages who
realized that forcing chastity on teenagers can lead to terrible
consequences. We also note the contrast between the earthy realism
of the Jewish sages and the bizzare ethos of renunciation that
permeates Christian, and assimilated Jewish, thought. Since you
profess to be simultaneously a faithful follower of the wisdom of the
sages, an advocate of late marriage, and an opponent of teenage
sex, you need to explain how you reconcile the contradictions that
the learned Amitai has pointed out.
>I am the manager of a research lab. I do research. It is research on
>sexuality and behavior. My personal opinion is that teens should wait
>until marriage to have sex.
But in combination with your support of quite late mariage, you seem
to be advocating that we ignore R. Huna's incisive remarks. Is this
an example of the "picking and choosing" that we are so often
warned about on this forum?
Lane Singer
To Miriam Wolfe <maw...@merle.acns.nwu.edu>:
>But you failed to respond substantively to Amitai's argument.
>As Amitai pointed out, the gemorrah quite plainly states that
>young men are likely to obsess about sex and that marriage
>is the only way to bring this obsession within bounds. In fact,
>it is argued that a great scholar owes his greatness to his
>marriage at 14. Here we note the wisdom of the sages who
>realized that forcing chastity on teenagers can lead to terrible
>consequences. We also note the contrast between the earthy realism
>of the Jewish sages and the bizzare ethos of renunciation that
>permeates Christian, and assimilated Jewish, thought. Since you
>profess to be simultaneously a faithful follower of the wisdom of the
>sages, an advocate of late marriage, and an opponent of teenage
>sex, you need to explain how you reconcile the contradictions that
>the learned Amitai has pointed out.
>
>>I am the manager of a research lab. I do research. It is research on
>>sexuality and behavior. My personal opinion is that teens should wait
>>until marriage to have sex.
Perhaps, to accommodate the challenge of our modern society and
the tribulations of teens, we should simply match them all up at
the age of 14 for temporary, teenage marriages, completely devoid
of procreation (through mandatory birth control). These temporary
marriages can last seven years or forever, whichever comes first
in the needs and desires of the participants. Combined with the
myriad problems this would create, it would completely eradicate
teenage pregnancy, do away with huge amounts of suffering, and
free youngsters to concentrate on something besides sex, which in
and of itself causes enough dissatisfaction and insanity to drive
teenagers to the brink of self-destruction.
BTW, this =is= a troll (unfortunately).
--
Lane Singer