Darwin, Hitler, and the Culture of Death
J
Darwin, Hitler, and the Culture of Death
Commentary by Michael Baggot
May 5, 2008 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Ben Stein has suffered extensive media
criticism for drawing the connection between Darwin, Hitler, and the modern
eugenics movements in a powerful 10-minute section of his film "Expelled: No
Intelligence Allowed".
In an MSNBC.com review, Arthur Caplan calls the connection Stein draws
between Darwin's theory and the Holocaust "despicable". Neo-Darwinians on
the whole have unleashed a barrage of insults at Stein and his work. They
have also, however, completely failed to address the intimidating body of
evidence Stein presents to support his claims.
While Stein has explicitly asserted that not every neo-Darwinist is a
eugenicist, an examination of the historic record reveals that neo-Darwinism
can and has provided the philosophic justification for numerous horrific
eugenic projects.
According to Darwin, the survival of the fittest is the engine for progress
for men as well as the rest of the animal kingdom. In his "Descent of Man,"
Darwin laments that the misguided care of the weaker members of society has
come as a detriment to the whole. He warns that measures must be taken to
"prevent the reckless, the vicious and otherwise inferior members of society
from increasing at a quicker rate than the better class of men," which is
essentially nothing less than the mission statement of eugenicists the world
over.
Less than a century after Darwin's death, in his chapter on "Nation and
Race" in "Mein Kampf," Adolf Hitler described the struggle for existence in
Darwinian terms: "The stronger must dominate and not blend with the weaker,
thus sacrificing his own greatness. Only the born weakling can view this as
cruel, but he after all is only a weak and limited man; for if this law did
not prevail, any conceivable higher evolution of organic living beings would
be unthinkable."
The Nazi party framed its mission in terms of a Darwinian struggle to
achieve a more evolved life form. According to the Hitler-approved
pamphlet "Why are We Fighting?", "Our racial idea is only the 'expression of
a worldview' that recognizes in the higher evolution of humans a divine
command."
Another Hitler-approved booklet, "Racial Policy", outlined the Nazi vision
of man as follows: "The preservation and propagation, the evolution and
elevating of life occurs through the struggle for existence, to which every
plant, every animal, every species and every genus is subjected. Even
humans and the human races are subject to this struggle; it decides their
value and their right to exist."
There is a ruthless consistency to the Darwinian-phrased Nazi propaganda.
After all, if Darwin has rendered the "God hypothesis" superfluous and hence
any notion of man as the intrinsically valuable creature made in God's image
and likeness, what better criteria is there for human worth than power?
According to Darwin, man is different from the rest of the animals only by a
matter of degrees. There is nothing that essentially distinguishes man from
the other beasts. At best, man is a more complex machine than the rest of
the animals. It should not be surprising then that the prominent
bioethicist Peter Singer appeals to Darwinian evolution when attacking the
sanctity-of-life ethic and defending abortion, infanticide, and euthanasia.
According to Singer, Darwin "undermined the foundations of the entire
Western way of thinking on the place of our species in the universe."
Likewise, Darwinian philosopher Daniel Dennett calls Darwin's views the
"universal acid" that erodes traditional moral convictions rooted in the
dignity of the human person. His strictly biological assessment of human
worth lets Dennett speaks of the "gradations of value in the ending of human
lives," as he offers a case for euthanasia.
In a particularly powerful portion of "Expelled," Stein lets Cornell
historian of science William Provine detail the implications of
neo-Darwinism. Without qualification, Provine adamantly affirms that
neo-Darwinism demonstrates that there is no meaning to life. Not
surprisingly, he claims that he would put a bullet through his own head if
his brain tumor reemerged. Provine chides his brother for clinging to this
life for so long.
One is then led to wonder if Provine has a more sympathetic view of the
large quantity of apparent drains on our society that fill our nations
hospitals and nursing homes. The materialistic nihilism Provine honestly
insists is entailed in neo-Darwinism seems to be completely incompatible
with traditional humanitarian aspirations to defend the weak and vulnerable
of society. Instead the weak and vulnerable are to be considered as
obstacles to the progress of the human species in its evolutionary journey.
They are to be eradicated. And, if not actively eradicated, then, at the
very least, they should not be allowed to reproduce.
If man is the accidental byproduct of blind natural forces and not the
planned creation of an Intelligent Creator, then his worth is something to
be earned rather than gratefully received. The denial of man's intrinsic
human dignity is at the heart of every eugenics movement from Hitler's
Germany to early 20th century America to Planned Parenthood's continued
mission to eliminate the "unwanted" children of the world.
Is every neo-Darwinian a racist bent on genocide? No. But as Darwinian
thinkers themselves admit, the neo-Darwinian outlook provides a handy
foundation for the Culture of Death's rejection of human dignity and thus
opens the way for the host of attacks on human life that continue to infect
nations across the globe. Thank you, Mr. Stein, for reminding us that ideas
have major consequences.
--
J
Jvis...@live.com
"....and Justice for All"
Pink Freud
"J" <Jvis...@live.com> wrote in message
news:1rp3de....@news.alt.net...
> http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/may/08050602.html
>
>
>
> Darwin, Hitler, and the Culture of Death
>
> <snip truth-denying twaddle>
>
> The Nazi party framed its mission in terms of a Darwinian struggle to
> achieve a more evolved life form. According to the Hitler-approved
> pamphlet "Why are We Fighting?", "Our racial idea is only the 'expression
> of a worldview' that recognizes in the higher evolution of humans a divine
> command."
>
"divine command", eh?
Looks like Hitler != atheist after all.
That's gonna be a hard pill to swallow for creationists.
LC
Culture of Idiocy representative "J" <Jvis...@live.com> wrote in message
news:1rp3de....@news.alt.net...
> Darwin,
"Maybe that is Darwin's theory at work.The South,and the southern way
of life, is never going to just go away because another segment of
society wants it to."
From: jdyo...@volcanomail.com (Jon Young)
Subject: Re: Darwin was full of crap
Date: 12 Apr 2004 09:49:01 -0700
Message-ID: <25e1e54f.04041...@posting.google.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 152.163.252.163
> Hitler,
"I take my hat off to the Nazis. What we need now is .... a solution. It can
be seen as a final one, if you like..."
From: "IBen Getiner" <Lapp...@aol.com> aka "J Young".
Newsgroups: rec.music.beatles
Subject: Re: Neo-Nazi's cause riot ot
Date: 17 Oct 2005 22:05:30 -0700
Message-ID: <1129611930....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
> and the "J Young" Culture of Death
"I'm a devout Catholic and would like to see the Muslims start
stoking-up the ovens in Tel Aviv." "J Young", in
Message-ID: <1158543753.0...@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>
Cary Kittrell
> http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/may/08050602.html
>
>
>
> Darwin, Hitler, and the Culture of Death
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Commentary by Michael Baggot
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> May 5, 2008 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Ben Stein has suffered extensive media
> criticism for drawing the connection between Darwin, Hitler, and the modern
> eugenics movements in a powerful 10-minute section of his film "Expelled: No
> Intelligence Allowed".
>
> In an MSNBC.com review, Arthur Caplan calls the connection Stein draws
> between Darwin's theory and the Holocaust "despicable". Neo-Darwinians on
> the whole have unleashed a barrage of insults at Stein and his work. They
> have also, however, completely failed to address the intimidating body of
> evidence Stein presents to support his claims.
>
> While Stein has explicitly asserted that not every neo-Darwinist is a
> eugenicist, an examination of the historic record reveals that neo-Darwinism
> can and has provided the philosophic justification for numerous horrific
> eugenic projects.
And of course if evil people can use a scientific truth for evil
ends, well, that science should be supressed at all costs.
I therefore suggest that we eliminate nuclear physics, organic chemistry,
and microbiology.
For starters.
(we could start by banning the Periodic Table)
-- cary
Spartakus
> http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/may/08050602.html
>
> Darwin, Hitler, and the Culture of Death
>
> Commentary by Michael Baggot
>
> May 5, 2008 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Ben Stein has suffered extensive media
> criticism
For being the front man for a really crappy, anti-scientific movie.
> for drawing the connection between Darwin, Hitler, and the modern
> eugenics movements
There is no link between Darwin, Hitler and eugenics. Thanks for
playing.
> in a powerful 10-minute section of his film "Expelled: No
> Intelligence Allowed".
You mean, the part that used John Lennon's song "Imagine" without
permission from the copyright holder? The producers of "Expelled" are
thieves and liars.
Leo Marx
>
> http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/may/08050602.html
>
> Darwin, Hitler, and the Culture of Death
>
Yes, it is sad that christians in the US have adopted Hitler's
philosophies as their own and created a culture of death in our country.
JAM
fla...@verizon.net
On 7-May-2008, "Pink Freud" <some...@here.com> wrote:
> "J" <Jvis...@live.com> wrote in message
> news:1rp3de....@news.alt.net...
> > http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/may/08050602.html
> >
> >
> >
> > Darwin, Hitler, and the Culture of Death
> >
> > <snip truth-denying twaddle>
> >
> > The Nazi party framed its mission in terms of a Darwinian struggle to
> > achieve a more evolved life form. According to the Hitler-approved
> > pamphlet "Why are We Fighting?", "Our racial idea is only the
> > 'expression
> > of a worldview' that recognizes in the higher evolution of humans a
> > divine
> > command."
> >
>
> "divine command", eh?
> Looks like Hitler != atheist after all.
> That's gonna be a hard pill to swallow for creationists.
Hitler believed in Hitler. He would have used atheism if it
were as prevelant & pliable as Xianity was He was a
hatemonger, plain & simple.
Susan
Mark K. Bilbo
> http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/may/08050602.html
>
> Darwin, Hitler, and the Culture of Death
>
> Commentary by Michael Baggot
>
> May 5, 2008 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Ben Stein has suffered extensive media
> criticism for drawing the connection between Darwin, Hitler, and the modern
> eugenics movements in a powerful 10-minute section of his film "Expelled: No
> Intelligence Allowed".
>
> In an MSNBC.com review, Arthur Caplan calls the connection Stein draws
> between Darwin's theory and the Holocaust "despicable". Neo-Darwinians on
> the whole have unleashed a barrage of insults at Stein and his work. They
> have also, however, completely failed to address the intimidating body of
> evidence Stein presents to support his claims.
EVIDENCE?
BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!
BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!
BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!
BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!
BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!
BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!
Preventer of Work
Creationists would eat that up. It's very old testament to go killing
off entire populations on the divine command of god.
Free Lunch
Sure, but the Christians followed him.
Ray Fischer
>Darwin, Hitler, and the Culture of Death
Your culture of death, nazi turd, not Darwin's.
>May 5, 2008 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Ben Stein has suffered extensive media
>criticism for drawing the connection between Darwin, Hitler, and the modern
Stien and his cronies are outright liars and anti-science bigots.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
bam
<fla...@verizon.net> wrote in message news:CZtUj.24451$qW.20071@trnddc06...
>
> On 7-May-2008, "Pink Freud" <some...@here.com> wrote:
>
>> "J" <Jvis...@live.com> wrote in message
>> news:1rp3de....@news.alt.net...
>> > http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/may/08050602.html
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Darwin, Hitler, and the Culture of Death
>> >
>> > <snip truth-denying twaddle>
>> >
>> > The Nazi party framed its mission in terms of a Darwinian struggle to
>> > achieve a more evolved life form. According to the Hitler-approved
>> > pamphlet "Why are We Fighting?", "Our racial idea is only the
>> > 'expression
>> > of a worldview' that recognizes in the higher evolution of humans a
>> > divine
>> > command."
>> >
>>
>> "divine command", eh?
>> Looks like Hitler != atheist after all.
>> That's gonna be a hard pill to swallow for creationists.
>
> Hitler believed in Hitler.
That's pretty much a prime example of an atheist.
BAM
fla...@verizon.net
On 7-May-2008, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
> >Hitler believed in Hitler. He would have used atheism if it
> >were as prevelant & pliable as Xianity was He was a
> >hatemonger, plain & simple.
> >
> >Susan
>
> Sure, but the Christians followed him.
Not all of them - the braveest of the decent ones fought against him.
And I can't blame some of them for being afraid.
But yes, when good men do nothing, evil flourishes.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
Not exactly. An atheist specifcally believes "There is no G-d."
Hitler probably didn't care - he was as sick as they come.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 7-May-2008, Preventer of Work <not_...@nospam.xxx> wrote:
> >
> > "divine command", eh?
> > Looks like Hitler != atheist after all.
> > That's gonna be a hard pill to swallow for creationists.
> >
>
> Creationists would eat that up. It's very old testament to go killing
> off entire populations on the divine command of god.
Depends on your interpretation of Xian Scripture.
But in Torah, there were always reasons for it - reasons
which, oddly enough, archeological evidence has upheld
(e.g., baby sacrificial cults in Canaan).
Susan
DanielSan
> On 8-May-2008, "bam" <mcca...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>> <fla...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>> news:CZtUj.24451$qW.20071@trnddc06...
>>> On 7-May-2008, "Pink Freud" <some...@here.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "divine command", eh?
>>>> Looks like Hitler != atheist after all.
>>>> That's gonna be a hard pill to swallow for creationists.
>>> Hitler believed in Hitler.
>> That's pretty much a prime example of an atheist.
>
> Not exactly. An atheist specifcally believes "There is no G-d."
Actually, an atheist specifically does NOT believe in any gods.
Anything else, including belief in self, is irrelevant as they are not a
quality of atheism, a word with a really precise and narrow definition.
> Hitler probably didn't care - he was as sick as they come.
Yet he claimed that he was a Christian.
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "I do not believe in God because I do not *
* believe in Mother Goose." *
* --Clarence Darrow, 1925 *
****************************************************
Christopher A. Lee
>
>On 8-May-2008, "bam" <mcca...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>> <fla...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>> news:CZtUj.24451$qW.20071@trnddc06...
>> >
>> > On 7-May-2008, "Pink Freud" <some...@here.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> "divine command", eh?
>> >> Looks like Hitler != atheist after all.
>> >> That's gonna be a hard pill to swallow for creationists.
>> >
>> > Hitler believed in Hitler.
>>
>> That's pretty much a prime example of an atheist.
>
>Not exactly. An atheist specifcally believes "There is no G-d."
Do I, moron?
Here's a clue: an atheist is somebody who isn't theist. "God" is part
of SOMEBODY ELSE'S PARADIGM not ours.
>Hitler probably didn't care - he was as sick as they come.
He was Catholic. And the good Christians who carried out his orders
were a mixture of Catholic and Lutheran.
It was the culmination of nearly two millennia of anti-Semitism
fostered by the church until Christianity emerged from the dark ages,
that had become enshrined in the culture.
>Susan
bob young
Reminds one of the Inquisition and the burning alive of
those that had the intelligence to stand up to primitive
superstitions. It went on for, what was it? About three
hundred years? Not bad for Christian folks of yester year.
Seems even today they are still emphatically nervous and
terrified of any ideology that threatens their juvenile
imaginary god system.
Bob
Humanist
You never see animals going through the absurd and often
horrible fooleries of magic and religion. Only man behaves
with such gratuitous folly. It is the price he has to pay
for being intelligent but not, as yet, quite intelligent
enough.
[Aldous Leonard Huxley]
bob young
"Secular schools can never be tolerated because
such a school has no religious instruction and
a general moral instruction without a religious
foundation is built on air; consequently, all
character training and religion must be derived
from faith.... We need believing people."
[Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933]
bob young
"The Government, being resolved to undertake the political
and moral
purification of our public life, are creating and securing
the conditions
necessary for a really profound revival of religious life"
~ Adolph Hitler
"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the
Almighty Creator.
By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's
work."~ Adolph Hitler
"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will
of the Almighty Creator."~ Adolph Hitler
"What we have to fight for...is the freedom and independence
of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill
the mission assigned to it by the Creator." ~ Adolph Hitler
bam
"DanielSan" <daniel...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:iqGdnSDxO_O2T77V...@comcast.com...
> fla...@verizon.net wrote:
>> On 8-May-2008, "bam" <mcca...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>>> <fla...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>>> news:CZtUj.24451$qW.20071@trnddc06...
>>>> On 7-May-2008, "Pink Freud" <some...@here.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "divine command", eh?
>>>>> Looks like Hitler != atheist after all.
>>>>> That's gonna be a hard pill to swallow for creationists.
>>>> Hitler believed in Hitler.
>>> That's pretty much a prime example of an atheist.
>>
>> Not exactly. An atheist specifcally believes "There is no G-d."
>
> Actually, an atheist specifically does NOT believe in any gods. Anything
> else, including belief in self, is irrelevant as they are not a quality of
> atheism, a word with a really precise and narrow definition.
>
>> Hitler probably didn't care - he was as sick as they come.
>
> Yet he claimed that he was a Christian.
When?
BAM
DanielSan
Multiple times.
I'm not going to post them but you can read them at
http://www.nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm
Here's two to get you started:
"We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We
have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and
that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it
out." --October 24, 1933
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a
fighter." --April 12, 1922
Christopher A. Lee
<daniel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>bam wrote:
>> "DanielSan" <daniel...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:iqGdnSDxO_O2T77V...@comcast.com...
>>> fla...@verizon.net wrote:
>>>> On 8-May-2008, "bam" <mcca...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> <fla...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:CZtUj.24451$qW.20071@trnddc06...
>>>>>> On 7-May-2008, "Pink Freud" <some...@here.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "divine command", eh?
>>>>>>> Looks like Hitler != atheist after all.
>>>>>>> That's gonna be a hard pill to swallow for creationists.
>>>>>> Hitler believed in Hitler.
>>>>> That's pretty much a prime example of an atheist.
>>>> Not exactly. An atheist specifcally believes "There is no G-d."
>>> Actually, an atheist specifically does NOT believe in any gods. Anything
>>> else, including belief in self, is irrelevant as they are not a quality of
>>> atheism, a word with a really precise and narrow definition.
>>>
>>>> Hitler probably didn't care - he was as sick as they come.
>>> Yet he claimed that he was a Christian.
>>
>> When?
>
>Multiple times.
He knows. He's religious nutter who has been trolling here for years.
DanielSan
Agreed. I'm getting the bagpipes ready for his response. :-)
LC
"bam" <mcca...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:rsCUj.479$255...@bignews8.bellsouth.net...
>>> > <snip truth-denying twaddle>
>> Hitler believed in Hitler.
You *really* want to believe that, don't you?:
"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."~ Adolph Hitler
bam
Non responsive. He is not claiming to be a Christian in this statement.
>
> "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a
> fighter." --April 12, 1922
That's fine - he revoked that statement often enough afterward.
Thanks
BAM
bam
"LC" <LC_...@hotmail.com> wrote
>> That's pretty much a prime example of an atheist.
>
> You *really* want to believe that, don't you?:
No, this is an act of the intellect, not the will. You do know the
difference don't you??
> "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."~ Adolph Hitler
Can you find the original source of this quote, outside of John Toland's
book, written in 1991?
This book is not a respectable piece of literature., March 6, 1998
By A Customer
Adolf by John Toland was one of the worst books that I have ever read. The
books demeanor wrecks at the brain like a small child's screams. Reading
this book was like being hit in the head with a baseball bat. To all the
readers out there interested in reading this book, Be warned. Several hours
of terrible reading will occupy your evening.
Of are you going to cite that shameful forgery called Engel's Diaries?
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Letters/Hitler/Miller301204.html
Stick that quote in with your missing links and vestigial organs.
BAM
Free Lunch
DanielSan
But he's definitely being anti-atheist.
>
>> "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a
>> fighter." --April 12, 1922
>
> That's fine - he revoked that statement often enough afterward.
> Thanks
All the statements listed at my site were revoked?
(Why do I hear the faint sound of bagpipes?)
bam
If that's the best you've got, why waste my time?
> (Why do I hear the faint sound of bagpipes?)
Because you need to blow your nose?
BAM
DanielSan
I didn't realize that some quotes were of better quality than others. I
just picked two.
>
>> (Why do I hear the faint sound of bagpipes?)
>
> Because you need to blow your nose?
....what?
bam
Yep - your bad.
>
>>
>>> (Why do I hear the faint sound of bagpipes?)
>>
>> Because you need to blow your nose?
>
> ....what?
Brilliant.
BAM
fla...@verizon.net
On 9-May-2008, DanielSan <daniel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> fla...@verizon.net wrote:
> > On 8-May-2008, "bam" <mcca...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >
> >> <fla...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> >> news:CZtUj.24451$qW.20071@trnddc06...
> >>> On 7-May-2008, "Pink Freud" <some...@here.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> "divine command", eh?
> >>>> Looks like Hitler != atheist after all.
> >>>> That's gonna be a hard pill to swallow for creationists.
> >>> Hitler believed in Hitler.
> >> That's pretty much a prime example of an atheist.
> >
> > Not exactly. An atheist specifcally believes "There is no G-d."
>
> Actually, an atheist specifically does NOT believe in any gods.
I guess that is different from what i said,
but what I said, I got from what I have seen/heard from atheists -
most of them have always said, flat-out, that there is no G-d.
> Anything else, including belief in self, is irrelevant as they are not a
> quality of atheism, a word with a really precise and narrow definition.
>
Yes, I definitely agree with this.
> > Hitler probably didn't care - he was as sick as they come.
>
> Yet he claimed that he was a Christian.
>
Of course he did.
He claimed *many* of things that were not true.
He was the sickest sort of opportunist there was.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 9-May-2008, bob young <alasp...@netvigator.com> wrote:
> > > > Hitler believed in Hitler.
> > >
> > > That's pretty much a prime example of an atheist.
> >
> > Not exactly. An atheist specifcally believes "There is no G-d."
> > Hitler probably didn't care - he was as sick as they come.
> >
> > Susan
>
> "The Government, being resolved to undertake the political
> and moral
> purification of our public life, are creating and securing
> the conditions
> necessary for a really profound revival of religious life"
> ~ Adolph Hitler
>
> "I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the
> Almighty Creator.
> By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's
> work."~ Adolph Hitler
>
> "I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will
> of the Almighty Creator."~ Adolph Hitler
>
> "What we have to fight for...is the freedom and independence
> of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill
> the mission assigned to it by the Creator." ~ Adolph Hitler
As I have said elsewhere, Hitler was a consummate liar,
& claimed *many* things that were not true. He was
trying to get as much support as possible.
Susan
DanielSan
> On 9-May-2008, DanielSan <daniel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> fla...@verizon.net wrote:
>>> On 8-May-2008, "bam" <mcca...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> <fla...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:CZtUj.24451$qW.20071@trnddc06...
>>>>> On 7-May-2008, "Pink Freud" <some...@here.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "divine command", eh?
>>>>>> Looks like Hitler != atheist after all.
>>>>>> That's gonna be a hard pill to swallow for creationists.
>>>>> Hitler believed in Hitler.
>>>> That's pretty much a prime example of an atheist.
>>> Not exactly. An atheist specifcally believes "There is no G-d."
>> Actually, an atheist specifically does NOT believe in any gods.
>
> I guess that is different from what i said,
> but what I said, I got from what I have seen/heard from atheists -
> most of them have always said, flat-out, that there is no G-d.
That's not a property of atheism.
>
>> Anything else, including belief in self, is irrelevant as they are not a
>> quality of atheism, a word with a really precise and narrow definition.
>>
> Yes, I definitely agree with this.
>
>>> Hitler probably didn't care - he was as sick as they come.
>> Yet he claimed that he was a Christian.
>>
> Of course he did.
> He claimed *many* of things that were not true.
> He was the sickest sort of opportunist there was.
And, in the distance, bagpipes can be heard.
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "When I was a kid I used to pray every night for *
* a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord *
* doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked *
* Him to forgive me." --Emo Philips *
****************************************************
BOB
news:2c6dnXFDy_VR4LvV...@comcast.com:
Should be some historical documentation as to wether Hitler was formally
baptized a xtian or not. If he was baptized a xtian, he was a xtian.
>
fla...@verizon.net
On 11-May-2008, DanielSan <daniel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> fla...@verizon.net wrote:
> > On 9-May-2008, DanielSan <daniel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> fla...@verizon.net wrote:
> >>> On 8-May-2008, "bam" <mcca...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> <fla...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> >>>> news:CZtUj.24451$qW.20071@trnddc06...
> >>>>> On 7-May-2008, "Pink Freud" <some...@here.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> "divine command", eh?
> >>>>>> Looks like Hitler != atheist after all.
> >>>>>> That's gonna be a hard pill to swallow for creationists.
> >>>>> Hitler believed in Hitler.
> >>>> That's pretty much a prime example of an atheist.
> >>> Not exactly. An atheist specifcally believes "There is no G-d."
> >> Actually, an atheist specifically does NOT believe in any gods.
> >
> > I guess that is different from what i said,
> > but what I said, I got from what I have seen/heard from atheists -
> > most of them have always said, flat-out, that there is no G-d.
>
> That's not a property of atheism.
>
Says you, of course.
Others say otherwise - every day.
> >
> >> Anything else, including belief in self, is irrelevant as they are not
> >> a
> >> quality of atheism, a word with a really precise and narrow definition.
> >>
> > Yes, I definitely agree with this.
> >
> >>> Hitler probably didn't care - he was as sick as they come.
> >> Yet he claimed that he was a Christian.
> >>
> > Of course he did.
> > He claimed *many* of things that were not true.
> > He was the sickest sort of opportunist there was.
>
> And, in the distance, bagpipes can be heard.
Oh? Are you saying Hitler *didn't* lie?
Are you saying he *wasn't* an opportunist?
Are you saying that Hitler ever said he was Jewish?
Susan
Christopher A. Lee
>
>On 9-May-2008, DanielSan <daniel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> fla...@verizon.net wrote:
>> > On 8-May-2008, "bam" <mcca...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> <fla...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>> >> news:CZtUj.24451$qW.20071@trnddc06...
>> >>> On 7-May-2008, "Pink Freud" <some...@here.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> "divine command", eh?
>> >>>> Looks like Hitler != atheist after all.
>> >>>> That's gonna be a hard pill to swallow for creationists.
>> >>> Hitler believed in Hitler.
>> >> That's pretty much a prime example of an atheist.
>> >
>> > Not exactly. An atheist specifcally believes "There is no G-d."
>>
>> Actually, an atheist specifically does NOT believe in any gods.
>
>I guess that is different from what i said,
>but what I said, I got from what I have seen/heard from atheists -
>most of them have always said, flat-out, that there is no G-d.
Are you really this stupid?
It's no different than saying there are no ghosts, no leprechauns etc.
Why is it so hard to think outside the theist box?
It's merely part of somebody else's religious beliefs, in exactly the
same way Zeus, Odin, Osiris and all the others are that you yourself
don't give a thought to not something that could or could not exist.
A belief not a thing that could or could not exist.
Which is hardly rocket science.
The rest of the world does not revolve around the deity belief of your
religion, no matter how "real" it seems to you.
Neither atheists nor theists who believe in other gods like Hindus and
all the others, can ever be described accurately by your doctrinal
presumptions which only apply oinside your religion.
Which is hardly rocket science either.
In exactl
>> Anything else, including belief in self, is irrelevant as they are not a
>> quality of atheism, a word with a really precise and narrow definition.
>>
>Yes, I definitely agree with this.
>
>> > Hitler probably didn't care - he was as sick as they come.
>>
>> Yet he claimed that he was a Christian.
>>
>Of course he did.
>He claimed *many* of things that were not true.
>He was the sickest sort of opportunist there was.
Do you honestly, seriously imagine he knew he was evil and just
pretending to be one so he couold get his equally anti-Semitic
Christian followers to do his dirty work for him?
Nobody is evil in their own minds. Even people like Hitler, Ariel
Sharon etc.
>Susan
Christopher A. Lee
>
>On 11-May-2008, DanielSan <daniel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> fla...@verizon.net wrote:
>> > On 9-May-2008, DanielSan <daniel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> fla...@verizon.net wrote:
>> >>> On 8-May-2008, "bam" <mcca...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> <fla...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>> >>>> news:CZtUj.24451$qW.20071@trnddc06...
>> >>>>> On 7-May-2008, "Pink Freud" <some...@here.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> "divine command", eh?
>> >>>>>> Looks like Hitler != atheist after all.
>> >>>>>> That's gonna be a hard pill to swallow for creationists.
>> >>>>> Hitler believed in Hitler.
>> >>>> That's pretty much a prime example of an atheist.
>> >>> Not exactly. An atheist specifcally believes "There is no G-d."
>> >> Actually, an atheist specifically does NOT believe in any gods.
>> >
>> > I guess that is different from what i said,
>> > but what I said, I got from what I have seen/heard from atheists -
>> > most of them have always said, flat-out, that there is no G-d.
>>
>> That's not a property of atheism.
>>
>Says you, of course.
>Others say otherwise - every day.
Yet another pig-ignorant, arrogantly nasty theist who imagines she
gets to tell atheists what our position "really" is.
You're lying through your teeth because you have been told this so
many times already that it can no longer be an honest "mistake". If it
ever was one.
I know you are incapable of thinking outside your religion so
something stops you understanding it.
But have the courtesy to accept what we say our own position is
You don't need to understand it.
DanielSan
> On 11-May-2008, DanielSan <daniel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> fla...@verizon.net wrote:
>>> On 9-May-2008, DanielSan <daniel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> fla...@verizon.net wrote:
>>>>> On 8-May-2008, "bam" <mcca...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> <fla...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:CZtUj.24451$qW.20071@trnddc06...
>>>>>>> On 7-May-2008, "Pink Freud" <some...@here.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "divine command", eh?
>>>>>>>> Looks like Hitler != atheist after all.
>>>>>>>> That's gonna be a hard pill to swallow for creationists.
>>>>>>> Hitler believed in Hitler.
>>>>>> That's pretty much a prime example of an atheist.
>>>>> Not exactly. An atheist specifcally believes "There is no G-d."
>>>> Actually, an atheist specifically does NOT believe in any gods.
>>> I guess that is different from what i said,
>>> but what I said, I got from what I have seen/heard from atheists -
>>> most of them have always said, flat-out, that there is no G-d.
>> That's not a property of atheism.
>>
> Says you, of course.
> Others say otherwise - every day.
Yes. Atheists frequently say that. But, it's not a property of
atheism. For example:
I say there is no God.
I do not believe in God.
The latter sentence is where I am an atheist. The former is superfluous
to the definition of atheism, but both apply to me.
>>>> Anything else, including belief in self, is irrelevant as they are not
>>>> a
>>>> quality of atheism, a word with a really precise and narrow definition.
>>>>
>>> Yes, I definitely agree with this.
>>>
>>>>> Hitler probably didn't care - he was as sick as they come.
>>>> Yet he claimed that he was a Christian.
>>>>
>>> Of course he did.
>>> He claimed *many* of things that were not true.
>>> He was the sickest sort of opportunist there was.
>> And, in the distance, bagpipes can be heard.
>
> Oh? Are you saying Hitler *didn't* lie?
The problem with liars is that you never know when they're telling the
truth.
The bigger problem is, does your actions invalidate your religion or is
it your belief that validates your religion? Is simply calling yourself
a Christian necessary, or do you have to have belief in God? How do
others KNOW that you have belief in God and that you're not lying? Can you?
However, it is interesting to note Hitler's youth. His parents were
Roman Catholics and prior to any power, Hitler's parents raised him as such.
> Are you saying he *wasn't* an opportunist?
Are you saying that it's impossible for a Christian to be an opportunist?
> Are you saying that Hitler ever said he was Jewish?
....what?
bam
Your repeated bagpipe analogy has fallen flat - scrap it.
BAM
DanielSan
Just as soon as the fallacy is scrapped as an argument.
Free Lunch
wrote:
It's not an analogy, its an observation. You have once again engaged in
the No True Scotsman fallacy. See more at
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman>.
Until you provide a clear, generally accepted definition of Christianity
that shows that Hitler was not a Christian, you cannot claim that he was
not a Christian. Given that the generally accepted definition of
Christian explicitly rejects the actual behavior of the Christian, you
have a problem.
Christopher A. Lee
wrote:
Not just Hitler but Protestant and Catholic church fathers, the
crusaders, the slave owners, both sides during the reformation,
Torquemada and the Inquisition, etc.
None of these could have been Christian.
fla...@verizon.net
I always figure that's *their* problem.
>
> The bigger problem is, does your actions invalidate your religion or is
> it your belief that validates your religion? Is simply calling yourself
> a Christian necessary, or do you have to have belief in God? How do
> others KNOW that you have belief in God and that you're not lying? Can
> you?
>
I figurewhen what you do goes against - in a noticeable way -
everything you profess to believe that you can't be a true
whatever-it-is you say you are.
But yes, the question is "Do Hitler's actions go against Xianity?"
From what all of the say now, yes, it does.
But for *centuries*, it certainly looks/sounds like what
lots of the were doing, supposedly under direct orders
from G-d.
But I like to give the modern Xians the benefit of the doubt,
if only because I would always like to be given it, myself.
>
> However, it is interesting to note Hitler's youth. His parents were
> Roman Catholics and prior to any power, Hitler's parents raised him as
> such.
>
Sure.
>
> > Are you saying he *wasn't* an opportunist?
>
> Are you saying that it's impossible for a Christian to be an opportunist?
>
From what they tell me, I thought that was part of the point.
But you seemed to be trying to say that i was wrong in general -
I suppose I misread you.
> > Are you saying that Hitler ever said he was Jewish?
>
> ....what?
>
That was a direct question to your bagpipe reference.
I wasn;t the one who was even remotely going to say "Hitler wasn't a true
Xian"
Susan
DanielSan
I don't really believe that one person's actions really are relevant to
another's. Hitler's actions no more represent Christianity than Pol
Pot's represents anti-theism. The only reason Hitler is ever brought up
in these kinds of discussions is that idiots who happen to be Christian
frequently try to tie Hitler in with atheism, as if Hitler's actions
were somehow representative.
>> However, it is interesting to note Hitler's youth. His parents were
>> Roman Catholics and prior to any power, Hitler's parents raised him as
>> such.
>>
> Sure.
>>> Are you saying he *wasn't* an opportunist?
>> Are you saying that it's impossible for a Christian to be an opportunist?
>>
> From what they tell me, I thought that was part of the point.
> But you seemed to be trying to say that i was wrong in general -
> I suppose I misread you.
I wasn't really referring to you.
>
>>> Are you saying that Hitler ever said he was Jewish?
>> ....what?
>>
> That was a direct question to your bagpipe reference.
> I wasn;t the one who was even remotely going to say "Hitler wasn't a true
> Xian"
True, but he claimed to be a Christian, so that is enough for me,
because that's really all I have to go by. His actions are in no way
representative of Christianity, but Hitler's name is frequently brought
up in these discussions as somehow a negative thing against those that
have never done (or even thought of doing anything like) what Hitler has
done.
We use "Hitler was a Christian" argument to highlight that, just because
one claims to be a Christian (or Jew, or Muslim, or atheist, or what
have you) does not automatically shield you from criticism for your
actions; that you're somehow more moral than others.
(I'm using the royal "you" there, not you personally, Susan.)
BOB
news:1bSdnVAv1MCAtLrV...@comcast.com:
If Hitler was "baptized" a xtian, doesn't that make him one whether he
acted like one or not? Can one be "un-baptized"?
fla...@verizon.net
On 11-May-2008, DanielSan <daniel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> fla...@verizon.net wrote:
>
> > I figurewhen what you do goes against - in a noticeable way -
> > everything you profess to believe that you can't be a true
> > whatever-it-is you say you are.
> > But yes, the question is "Do Hitler's actions go against Xianity?"
> > From what all of the say now, yes, it does.
> > But for *centuries*, it certainly looks/sounds like what
> > lots of the were doing, supposedly under direct orders
> > from G-d.
> > But I like to give the modern Xians the benefit of the doubt,
> > if only because I would always like to be given it, myself.
>
> I don't really believe that one person's actions really are relevant to
> another's. Hitler's actions no more represent Christianity than Pol
> Pot's represents anti-theism.
I can agree w/this. too.
>The only reason Hitler is ever brought up
> in these kinds of discussions is that idiots who happen to be Christian
> frequently try to tie Hitler in with atheism, as if Hitler's actions
> were somehow representative.
>
Yes, and I have seen the opposite - where athiests (who happen
to be angry) do the same in reverse.
I generally tick off everyone by sitting firmly in the middle :-)
>
> >> However, it is interesting to note Hitler's youth. His parents were
> >> Roman Catholics and prior to any power, Hitler's parents raised him as
> >> such.
> >>
> > Sure.
> >>> Are you saying he *wasn't* an opportunist?
> >> Are you saying that it's impossible for a Christian to be an
> >> opportunist?
> >>
> > From what they tell me, I thought that was part of the point.
> > But you seemed to be trying to say that i was wrong in general -
> > I suppose I misread you.
>
> I wasn't really referring to you.
>
Yes, I knew that - except for the "bagpipe" part.
Usually when someone mentions "bagpipes", it's because that
person is sure the other person will bring up the "no true Scotsman"
defense, and I wasn't going to do that.
> >
> >>> Are you saying that Hitler ever said he was Jewish?
> >> ....what?
> >>
> > That was a direct question to your bagpipe reference.
> > I wasn;t the one who was even remotely going to say "Hitler wasn't a
> > true
> > Xian"
>
> True, but he claimed to be a Christian, so that is enough for me,
> because that's really all I have to go by. His actions are in no way
> representative of Christianity, but Hitler's name is frequently brought
> up in these discussions as somehow a negative thing against those that
> have never done (or even thought of doing anything like) what Hitler has
> done.
>
> We use "Hitler was a Christian" argument to highlight that, just because
> one claims to be a Christian (or Jew, or Muslim, or atheist, or what
> have you) does not automatically shield you from criticism for your
> actions; that you're somehow more moral than others.
>
Oh, absolutely.
If anything, those who claim to follow a standard have to be
held to that standard & be judged more harshly when they fail.
> (I'm using the royal "you" there, not you personally, Susan.)
Yes, I got that :-)
Susan
bob young
He was indeed and a user of people, but as to his religious
leanings we will never know for sure
Christopher A. Lee
wrote:
Even Hitler didn't "know he was evil and using other people's
religious beliefs to carry out his dirty work".
Anti-Semitism had been enshrined in their culture for nearer two
millennia than one.
Encouraged and even ordered by both Protestant and Catholic church
fathers.
Unfortunately too many Christians are in denial about their own
religion's bloody past.
Whatever Hitler may or may not have believed, it was good Christians,
mostly Catholic and Lutheran, who carried out his orders. Who accepted
his religious justification. On people they hated for religious
reasons.
>> & claimed *many* things that were not true. He was
>> trying to get as much support as possible.
Hitler was the only religiously motivated anti-Semite in Germany at
the time. Yeah, right.
>> Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 12-May-2008, bob young <alasp...@netvigator.com> wrote:
> He was indeed and a user of people, but as to his religious
> leanings we will never know for sure
I can definitely agree w/this one.
Susan
bob young
Indeed he was but rergarding his gods, we will never know
for sure
Alpa Chino
<alasp...@netvigator.com> wrote:
Hitler was a Catholic, and there is no evidence whatsoever that the
fact that Stalin was an atheist at anything to do with his horrific
crimes.