Mercedes-Benz and the Jews
J Young
Mercedes Benz, or Volkswagen? It would seem to me that a priority would
be placed on boycotting companies that employed Jewish slave labor in
WWII. Thousands suffered and died at these plants, yet well-to-do Jews
think nothing of driving these automobiles in their quest to achieve a
social status. It appears the Holocaust has lost it's place in the
pecking order on what is considered important to the Jewish community.
El Bleacho
> One thing that has always baffled me is why do Jews drive BMW's, or
> Mercedes Benz, or Volkswagen?
Don't look at me. I drive a Jaguar.
--
_____________________
I am hung like Einstein;
and as smart as a horse!
CaptainW116
WWII were used as slave labor and many died on the "DEATH MARCH" to
these plants.
Ben Cramer
"J Young" <youngo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1120277265.2...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
They probably haven't paid for a single one. The car thing is likely part of
the holohoax reparations.
rowan smith
> J Young wrote:
>
>>One thing that has always baffled me is why do Jews drive BMW's, or
>>Mercedes Benz, or Volkswagen?
>
>
> Don't look at me. I drive a Jaguar.
>
cp
>>>Mercedes Benz, or Volkswagen?
>>
>> Don't look at me. I drive a Jaguar.
>>
> don't look at me. i'm catholic.
That don't mean anything, :-) Jews can be Catholics too. Jean-Marie Lustiger, the archbishop of Paris is a Jew and most likely the
second Jewish Pope, after St. Peter, the first one, according to Catholic teaching. A Jew is defined by ethnicity, not religion. You
haven't met any atheist or Christian Jews? Christianity was originally restricted to Jews.
cp
CaptainW116
suffered the same fate as Jews!
cp
By the same token, should Jews use IBM products? Ford? GMC? Those companies also were involved in Germany.
What about the Bush family who helped with financing the Nazis?
http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/randy/swas1.htm
I'm Polish and I'm nuts about anything German, and why wouldn't I? Both sets of my family in Poland went through the war being
occupied by Germans and Russians, had family butchered or laboured as slaves and yet none hold any hate for anyone, neither (perhaps
a slight grudge) does any European I know who went through the war, and I know many. An old family acquaintance still has his
Auschwitz tattoo, he also did not exhibit any hatred. A friend's grandfather who served in the Red Army was a POW and became friends
with his captors after the war. No hatred there either. It's time to break the cycle of hatred and move on and not do what I saw on
the History channel, 5 year old Jewish children imbued with hatred for Germans by their parents.
cp
cp
> suffered the same fate as Jews!
That wasn't my point, I was just saying that Jews can also be Catholics. :)
cp
El Bleacho
> That wasn't my point, I was just saying that Jews can also be
> Catholics. :)
OK, I'll bite. This should be really interesting..........
cp
>> Catholics. :)
>
> OK, I'll bite. This should be really interesting..........
Nothing surprising about this. The Christ came to earth as a Jew and Christianity was originally restricted by its initial followers
to Jews. I know many Christian Jews and atheist Jews and no Jews who adhere to Judaism. They are Jews by ethnicity, not by beliefs.
Though Biblically, if you can follow me, Jewish ethnicity is defined by religion, as God chose the righteous Abraham to bring the
Redeemer into the world through his son Isaac, via Isaac's son Jacob (AKA Israel). Abraham had many sons and Isaac had two. Jacob
was the first Jew (Israelite maybe a better term as Jew is a term that was used much later and has a confused history)
cp
El Bleacho
> Nothing surprising about this. The Christ came to earth as a Jew and
> Christianity was originally restricted by its initial followers to
> Jews.
I agree with the first part, but am not sure on the latter. Didn't the
apostles write letters to the non-Jews all the time (Paul to the
Phillistines, etc.)? So wouldn't the original following be non-Jews too?
> I know many Christian Jews and atheist Jews and no Jews who
> adhere to Judaism.
By defiition, a Jew cannot be an athiest. Of course, some of us Jews do
not even remotely adhere to Talmud. :-)
> They are Jews by ethnicity, not by beliefs.
You can be a semite by ethnicity (decendant of Shem, actually), but
Judaism is a belief system and therefore you cannot be a Jew without
believing in the God of Abraham.
> Though Biblically, if you can follow me, Jewish ethnicity is defined
> by religion, as God chose the righteous Abraham to bring the Redeemer
> into the world through his son Isaac, via Isaac's son Jacob (AKA
> Israel). Abraham had many sons and Isaac had two. Jacob was the first
> Jew (Israelite maybe a better term as Jew is a term that was used
> much later and has a confused history)
Now granted I am home sick with the flu and my head is all stuffed up; but
you have be totally confused! In Genesis, God used Abram, from Ur, the
actual Iran, to start the "people of God", the "chosen people". The twelve
tribes of Israel are from Jacob. Biblically, Tanakh says that Abram is the
first Jew, not Jacob. Jacob is "just" the father of the 12 tribes. And I
do not mean "just" in a bad way, mind you. Also, I would probably not be
too far off base if I argued on behalf of Adam being the first Jew. He was
the first child of God, and ancestor to God's chosen people. And I need to
caution you about something - Abraham's first son is Ishmael. Today's Arabs
are Ishmaelites-descendants of this same Ishmael, whose father was Abraham.
Muhammad, the founder of Islam, was descended from Kedar, one of the 12 sons
of Ishmael. This whole thing just isn't as simple as first pass would have
it seem. Personally, and not that it matters in the least; I go with
Abram as the first Jew. IMHO, Abram symbolizes the Father, Isaac
symbolizes the Son (Messiah that will come some day to save us Jews), and
Jacob is a symbol of the Holy Spirit of God.
SMITH29
>>>>One thing that has always baffled me is why do Jews drive BMW's, or
>>>>Mercedes Benz, or Volkswagen?
>>>
>>>Don't look at me. I drive a Jaguar.
>>>
>>
>>don't look at me. i'm catholic.
>
>
> That don't mean anything, :-) Jews can be Catholics too. Jean-Marie Lustiger, the archbishop of Paris is a Jew and most likely the
> second Jewish Pope, after St. Peter, the first one, according to Catholic teaching. A Jew is defined by ethnicity, not religion.
xxxx
Judism is a religion. Sometimes Hebrews are called Jew but
that isn't in agreement with the religion where as anyone
can become a jew if they believe in God.
29
The Spanish Inquisition
> You can be a semite by ethnicity (decendant of Shem, actually), but
> Judaism is a belief system and therefore you cannot be a Jew without
> believing in the God of Abraham.
Yeah, sure. Tell that to all those atheists of Jewish descent that still
label themselves as Jewish. Then, only then, start complaining to us
gentiles (is that a racial or a religious term?) of using the wrong
definitions.
Ximinez
--
Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...
and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope....
http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/paulfitz/spanish/t1.html
cp
> cp wrote:
>> Nothing surprising about this. The Christ came to earth as a Jew and
>> Christianity was originally restricted by its initial followers to
>> Jews.
>
> I agree with the first part, but am not sure on the latter. Didn't the apostles write letters to the non-Jews all the time So
> wouldn't the original following be non-Jews too?
There were some gentile believers but the church was restricted to Jews at first. Peter was instructed by God to go see a Roman
centurion believer but Peter argued that he cannot have anything to do with the unclean, the gentiles; God countered that Peter
should not call unclean what God has made clean. When the Jewish believers finally allowed gentile believers into their midst there
was a lot of friction as they expected the gentiles to adhere to the Old Testament law and Jewish customs. Paul later explained,
through revelation from the Christ (Greek for Messiah), that in the New Covenant, believers were not under Old Testament law and
Jewish customs, as the Christ had fulfilled the purpose of the law and believers were to worship in spirit and in truth, they had
direct access to God.
>(Paul to the Phillistines, etc.)?
Philippians. Totally different and the term 'Phillistine' was not used for anyone by that time.
>> I know many Christian Jews and atheist Jews and no Jews who
>> adhere to Judaism.
>
> By defiition, a Jew cannot be an athiest.
Only the definition in what we Christians call the Old Testament counts. Even the most orthodox Jew won't dispute that it's inspired
by God. Anything else, such as the Talmud and what not is just commentary.
> Of course, some of us Jews do not even remotely adhere to Talmud. :-)
I've heard that there are some severely unflattering things written about gentiles in the Talmud, to put it mildly.
>> They are Jews by ethnicity, not by beliefs.
>
> You can be a semite by ethnicity (decendant of Shem, actually), but Judaism is a belief system and therefore you cannot be a Jew
> without believing in the God of Abraham.
We're talking about Jews specifically. 'Jew' is a confused term but everyone uses it today to mean the biological descendants of
Jacob (Israel).
Are you saying that all those atheist Jews are not at all Jews? You've got it wrong, a Jew is a Jew by ethnicity, not religion.
Though the ethnicity was indeed defined by religion, God decreed that his chosen people would come through Jacob (Israel). Perhaps
you want to tell the atheist or Christian Jews I know that they are not ethnic Jews? I have no clue if they have biological ancestry
to Jacob and don't care but I won't argue with them whether they are Jews or not. Though I refuse to listen to a Russian Jewish
friend's nonsense that he has a right to Israel after his family (supposedly) being away from Israel for 2000 years.
>> Though Biblically, if you can follow me, Jewish ethnicity is defined
>> by religion, as God chose the righteous Abraham to bring the Redeemer
>> into the world through his son Isaac, via Isaac's son Jacob (AKA
>> Israel). Abraham had many sons and Isaac had two. Jacob was the first
>> Jew (Israelite maybe a better term as Jew is a term that was used
>> much later and has a confused history)
>
> Now granted I am home sick with the flu and my head is all stuffed up; but you have be totally confused!
I'm sorry but you are the one who is confused. Though some things are subjective and cannot be reconciled as I approach this from a
Christian point of view and you from the point of Judaism but the historical record is a different matter.
> In Genesis, God used Abram, from Ur, the actual Iran, to start the "people of God", the "chosen people".
What is meant by "chosen people"? Do you know?
> The twelve tribes of Israel are from Jacob.
Yes.
> Biblically, Tanakh says that Abram is the first Jew, not Jacob.
Where does it say that? Abraham had many sons, if he was the first Jew than so was Ishmael and the rest. Isaac had two sons, Esau
and Jacob, yet it is from Jacob that the Israelites trace their lineage to.
> Jacob is "just" the father of the 12 tribes.
Jacob, named Israel by God, is "just" the father of the 12 tribes? You better read the Tanakh again.
> do not mean "just" in a bad way, mind you. Also, I would probably not be too far off base if I argued on behalf of Adam being
> the first Jew.
That'd be nonsense.
> He was the first child of God, and ancestor to God's chosen people.
He's the ancestor of ALL people, so we're all Jews then?
> caution you about something - Abraham's first son is Ishmael. Today's Arabs are Ishmaelites-descendants of this same Ishmael,
> whose father was Abraham. Muhammad, the founder of Islam, was descended from Kedar, one of the 12 sons of Ishmael.
So is old Mo' a Jew too? And what is up with this nonsense that Arabs trace their lineage to Ishmael? There were probably a couple
million people in the Middle East during Abraham's time, what happened to them? Are they also not the ancestors of today's Middle
East inhabitants?
> This whole thing just isn't as simple as first pass would have it seem.
Oh I didn't say it's simple.
>Personally, and not that it matters in the least; I go with Abram as the first Jew. IMHO, Abram symbolizes the Father, Isaac
>symbolizes the Son (Messiah that will come some day to save us Jews), and Jacob is a symbol of the Holy Spirit of God.
Judaism and Old Testament make no sense without the New Testament. Are you saying that the omnipresent supreme being to whom this
universe is but a speck of dust that he's holding together moment by moment chose some hobby people and will send someone to save
them and not bother with the rest? Sounds like a severely racist religion to me! What are Jews to be saved from? Are you trying to
tell me that the supreme being, creator and sustainer of the universe is supposed to just help his "chosen" people from whatever
ails them? That's saying that this supreme being only cares about the Jews and the rest of us are irrelevant, which is what I hear
the Talmud precisely states.
Let me tell you what the reality is: Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the second person in the trinity of God and he came into the world
to save us from our sin, so that we won't have to spend eternity apart from God. What are the Jews (Israelites I should say), the
chosen people? They are chosen indeed, to be the source of light to the world through the Messiah who came to save the entire world
from sin. Jew/Israelites are not the chosen people because they are righteous or whatnot (how many times did God threaten to wipe
Israel from the face of the world and how many of Israel's sins and crimes are recorded in the Old Testament?) but because they were
the descendents of the righteous Abraham.
Think about this: the Messiah is supposed to be direct descendant of King David, which the Christ was, through his mother Mary and
legally through this adopted father Joseph who was the next in line to the throne. According to the prophets in the Old Testament,
it is ABSOLUTELY imperative that it can be demonstrated that the Messiah is a direct descendant of David and this was done through
the Jerusalem temple records during Jesus' time, but think about this: THE TEMPLATE RECORDS WERE DESTROYED ALONG WITH THE TEMPLE BY
THE ROMANS. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY. Jesus fit all the prophecies for the messiah, time for unbelieving Jews to consider him.
If this has not sunken in yet then one more time: The Messiah is supposed to be direct descendant of King David, which the Christ
was, through his mother Mary and legally through this adopted father Joseph who was the next in line to the throne. It is
ABSOLUTELY imperative that it can be demonstrated that the Messiah is a direct descendant of David and this was done through the
Jerusalem temple records during Jesus' time, but think about this: THE TEMPLATE RECORDS WERE DESTROYED ALONG WITH THE TEMPLE BY THE
ROMANS. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY. Ask your rabbi for an honest answer about this, eternity is at stake.
Now doesn't that make much more sense than what the rabbis are teaching?
I suggest you look in this because eternity is in the balance. Google it and also check out the Christian Jew Foundation. I don't
care for their uncritical Israel support but I they're right on who the messiah is and explain it well.
http://www.cjf.org/pages/aboutcjf.htm
Shalom and all that.
cp
The Jews
You're right, and we did boycott them. But we also had to boycott the
Japanese, because of the Rape of Nanking. We had to boycott the
English because of Dresden, the French because they collaborated with
the Germans, the Americans because of Hiroshima, the Russians because
of the gulags, and pretty soon we found ourselves walking.
"Screw this," we said.
Then we read this news story which made us all feel better.
TEL AVIV - After years of refusing to sit in a German-made vehicle
because of the Nazi Holocaust, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon will now
cruise in an armored BMW.
Sharon, who is facing growing threats of assassination from
ultranationalists opposed to his plan to quit Gaza this summer,
changed his mind after his Shin Bet secret service bodyguards
convinced him that the BMW sedans were among the safest cars, sources
in the Prime Minister's Office told Yedioth Ahronoth.
New armored cars used for Yad Vashem inauguration
The government recently purchased six armored German-made vehicles,
including four BMWs and two Mercedes cars, each costing up to
NIS 2.5 million (about USD 574,000). Sharon's new ride, a 2005 BMW 760
sedan, retails for about USD 110,000 without the armor.
The Shin Bet had started to use the vehicles last month to transport
foreign leaders who arrived in Israel for the inauguration of the new
Yad Vashem Holocaust Museum and to drive Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz
to weekly cabinet meetings.
Sharon had previously riden in an armored Volvo, which the government
purchased especially for him, and old Cadillacs that had once been
used by the Shin Bet. After lifting his veto on German cars, the prime
minister's ride will soon be upgraded to a more elaborate Mercedes.
Ben Cramer
"cp" <as...@asdf.com> wrote in message news:Yfrxe.122051$on1.8674@clgrps13...
Oh dear! You're for it now. The hebes are gonna jump right on you and give
you a history lesson now, to explain they are not a race, but are a
religion.
>
>
Ben Cramer
"CaptainW116" <benzn...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1120289172.1...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Uh, Catholics were also rounded up and put in concentration camps and
> suffered the same fate as Jews!
Sure were. It was not an exclusively yid thing, as much as they would like
the world to think so.
>
Ben Cramer
extremely bad catholics.
Ben Cramer
Methinks you are a tad confused.
Ben Cramer
"The Spanish Inquisition" <xim...@myown.mailcan.com> wrote in message
news:42c668b1$0$14321$e4fe...@dreader7.news.xs4all.nl...
> El Bleacho wrote:
>
>> You can be a semite by ethnicity (decendant of Shem, actually), but
>> Judaism is a belief system and therefore you cannot be a Jew without
>> believing in the God of Abraham.
>
> Yeah, sure. Tell that to all those atheists of Jewish descent that still
> label themselves as Jewish. Then, only then, start complaining to us
> gentiles (is that a racial or a religious term?) of using the wrong
> definitions.
They're all jews if there is a quid to be made from it.
Ben Cramer
and never will be eternity. All that religious shite about eternity, is just
that - shite.
evna...@cox.net
Mickey
I drive a Ferrari, so stick that in your anti-Semitic pie and smoke it.
Mickey
What hogwash. My mother was a Holocaust survivor, and never ONCE did I hear
her utter anything negative about Germans.
cp
> about eternity, is just that - shite.
Well, that's what the difference was between the Sadducees and the Pharisees; the former did not believe in eternity and latter did.
Do a detailed study of the Old Testament and you will see that it does indeed teach about eternity. If that's religious shite than
how is it any different from the religious shite you believe? If you believe in an eternal infinite God then why is it "religious
shite" to believe in eternity?
cp
cp
El Bleacho
> Judism is a religion. Sometimes Hebrews are called Jew but
> that isn't in agreement with the religion where as anyone
> can become a jew if they believe in God.
You only wish it was that easy! It isn't like Christianity where you read
John 3:16 out loud, click your heels together three times, and you are in.
http://www.convert.org/process.htm
THE CONVERSION PROCESS
1. CONSIDERING JUDAISM
The conversion process begins when a person considers the possibility of
becoming Jewish. The reasons why people become Jewish are varied. Many are
involved in a romantic relationship with someone Jewish and wish to unite
the family religiously. Others are on a spiritual search and learn about
Judaism through such means as reading, hearing a lecture, attending a Jewish
religious ceremony, and so on. Whatever the motivation, the first step in
considering conversion is to explore Judaism. This early exploration might
include discussing the subject with friends and family, taking out books and
videos on Judaism, or just thinking about whether conversion is the right
choice.
2. FINDING A RABBI
If, after the initial consideration, a person wishes to explore conversion
more fully, the next step is to find a rabbi. This part of the process can
be difficult for several reasons. Obviously, individual rabbis differ. Some
devote more time than others to conversion candidates. Some adhere to an
ancient tradition of turning away a candidate three times to test the
candidate's sincerity. In general, though, rabbis are extremely dedicated
people who are both intelligent and religiously sensitive. They are
Judaism's gatekeepers. They decide who can enter into Judaism. Given their
central importance to a potential convert, it makes sense to visit several
rabbis and several synagogues to look for a compatible match.
If you are looking for a rabbi, check with friends and family for advice.
Contact a local board of rabbis or other Jewish group, or check a local
telephone directory. You can also contact the movements directly. See the
section "Getting More Information About Conversion to Judaism."
A second problem is that rabbis belong to different groupings or movements.
The four major movements are Conservative, Orthodox, Reconstructionist, and
Reform Judaism. It is important for potential candidates to understand the
differences among these movement and choose which movement is right for
them.
When a person does see a rabbi, the rabbi can authoritatively answer
questions about conversion. If the person has already decided to convert,
the rabbi will probably ask a series of questions about that decision. Such
questions might include some of these:
Why do you want to convert?
What is your religious background?
What do you know about Judaism?
Do you know the differences between Judaism and your birth religion?
Were you pressured to convert?
Are you willing to spend the necessary time studying to become Jewish?
Are you willing to raise any children you might have as Jewish?
Have you discussed this decision with your family?
Do you have any questions about Judaism or conversion?
3. LEARNING JUDAISM
A decision has been made to study Judaism, and a rabbi has agreed to oversee
that studying. A person might not yet be fully sure that a conversion is
right, but the initial steps of exploration will continue. Even those who
don't ultimately convert generally find that studying Judaism is both
interesting and helpful in their making a final decision about conversion.
Converts study Judaism in a variety of ways. Some work directly with a
rabbi, meeting regularly and fulfilling specific study assignments. Others
attend formal Introduction to Judaism or conversion classes, often with
their Jewish romantic partner. A typical course of study will include basic
Jewish beliefs and religious practices, such as prayer services, the history
of the Jewish people, the Jewish home, the Jewish holidays and life cycle,
the Holocaust, and Israel, as well as other topics. The study of Hebrew is
also included.
The period of study varies greatly. In general, the range is from six months
to a year, although there are variations. Many Gentiles preparing to marry
someone Jewish go through this process early so as to get married in a
Jewish ceremony. A marriage between someone born Jewish and someone who
becomes Jewish is a Jewish marriage, not an intermarriage. If this is a
crucial issue, plan to begin study well before a wedding.
Usually during this study period, a rabbi will ask that the person begin
practicing Judaism according to the understanding of the movement. This can
be a worthwhile time to explore Judaism. For example, even if a person does
not ultimately plan to keep kosher (observe Jewish ritual rules about food),
it is valuable to explore the rules for keeping kosher during this period of
study.
4. THE RELIGIOUS COURT
The Religious Court, or Bet Din, most often consists of three people, at
least one of whom must be a rabbi. Often it consists of three rabbis. The
Bet Din officially oversees the formal conversion. Individual rabbis will
provide guidance about how the Bet Din works. Because it takes place after
learning, one part of the appearance will be to determine the Jewish
knowledge of the conversion candidate. There might, for example be a
question about the meaning of the Jewish Sabbath or about the Jewish belief
in one God. These questions are not meant to trap candidates. Obviously,
candidates are nervous during such questioning, but in almost all cases the
questions are simply meant to assess the sincerity of the candidate and to
make sure the conversion was entered into freely. Often an oath of
allegiance to the Jewish people is made.
5. CIRCUMCISION
The specific requirements for conversion and their order need to be
discussed with a rabbi. One requirement for males who wish to be converted
by an Orthodox or Conservative rabbi is circumcision, or brit milah. If a
circumcision has already been performed, the Orthodox and Conservative
movements require that a drop of blood be drawn as a symbolic circumcision.
This ceremony is called Hatafat Dam Brit. The Reform and Reconstructionist
movements generally do not require a circumcision as part of the conversion
process.
6. IMMERSION
Orthodox and Conservative rabbis require both male and female conversion
candidates to immerse themselves in a ritual bath called a mikveh. This
ceremony is called tevillah. Reform and Reconstructionist rabbis do not
require the use of a mikveh, but some highly recommend it. The mikveh can be
any body of natural water, though the term usually refers to a specific pool
that is built for the purposes of ritual purification. The equipment used
varies according to the mikveh. The immersion ceremony usually starts with
cleaning the body as by a shower. The person is covered and the covering
removed as the person enters the warm mikveh waters, which are usually about
four feet deep. (When the ceremony is done in a public place such as a lake
the candidate wears a loose-fitting garment). Blessings are recited and the
person goes bends into the water. According to traditional Jewish law, three
male witnesses must be present, although this rule has been reinterpreted so
that, in some movements, Jewish females can be witnesses. When there are
male witnesses and the candidate is female, the witnesses wait outside the
mikveh room and are told by a female attendant that the immersion has been
completed and the blessings recited.
7. THE OFFERING
In ancient times, conversion candidates brought sacrifices or offerings to
the Temple in Jerusalem. After the Temple was destroyed, this ceremony
disappeared. Jewish law therefore does not require such an offering.
However, some rabbis, especially among the Orthodox, mention it as an
opportunity to engage in an act of donating money to the poor or another act
of charity to make a symbolic offering. This step can voluntarily be added
to the conversion process.
8. CHOOSING A NAME
Again, particular conversion processes will vary. Frequently, after a Bet
Din and the signing of an oath, a Hebrew name is chosen. This is then
followed by a visit to a mikveh. At any rate, at some point, you will be
asked to pick a Hebrew name. Some male converts choose the Hebrew name
Avraham as their new Hebrew first name and some female candidates choose
Sarah or Ruth. Since the use of Hebrew names includes mention of the
parents' Hebrew names, and the convert has no Jewish parents, it is common
to add "ben Avraham Avinu," or son of Abraham, our Father. Therefore if a
male chooses the Hebrew name Avraham, that male's full Hebrew name would be
Avraham ben Avraham Avinu. For women, the addition is "bat Sarah Imenu,"
daughter of Sarah, our Mother. The naming ceremony includes a blessing.
9. THE PUBLIC CEREMONY
A public ceremony announcing the conversion is becoming more popular,
especially among Reform Jews. This ceremony usually involves the convert
standing in front of the congregation and giving a speech, most typically
about the reasons for converting or the lessons learned through the
conversion experience.
10. A SPECIAL CASE: THE CONVERSION OF MINORS
Minors can be converted. In families with a non-Jewish mother and a Jewish
father, the child is considered Jewish by the Reform movement if the child
is brought up engaging in public acts of identification with Judaism.
Orthodox and Conservative Judaism, however, do not regard such a child as
legally Jewish. Parents of such children can if they wish have their
children converted in infancy because the process is quite simple. While
some would consider this a surrender to pressure especially from the
Orthodox and refuse to do it, others see it as a way to get recognition of
the child's Jewishness by additional segments of the Jewish people. Reform
rabbis often simply have a naming ceremony. Orthodox and Conservative rabbis
require the mikveh for a female minor and a circumcision and mikveh for a
male minor.
cp
>> followers to Jews. I know many Christian Jews and atheist Jews and no Jews who adhere to Judaism. They are Jews by ethnicity, not
>> by beliefs.
>>
>> Though Biblically, if you can follow me, Jewish ethnicity is defined by religion, as God chose the righteous Abraham to bring the
>> Redeemer into the world through his son Isaac, via Isaac's son Jacob (AKA Israel). Abraham had many sons and Isaac had two. Jacob
>> was the first Jew (Israelite maybe a better term as Jew is a term that was used much later and has a confused history)
>>
>
> Methinks you are a tad confused.
I'm not confused at all, go read the Bible/Old Testament/Tanakh yourself.
cp
cp
>>> suffered the same fate as Jews!
>>
>> That wasn't my point, I was just saying that Jews can also be Catholics. :)
>>
> If that is the case, I would expect they are both very bad jews, and extremely bad catholics.
I just made the case that first and foremost a Jew is Jewish ethnically, not religiously.
cp
Dori A Schmetterling
that it is just that.
From a Jewish point of view the Christian scriptures are irrelevant and, no,
the Hebrew bible/scriptures do not 'need' the Christian bible to make sense.
Jesus may be an important historical figure but he decidedly does not fulfil
the conditions of being the Jewish Messiah, even if one or two of the
Gospels make an attempt to show Davidic lineage (which, in itself, is
insufficient).
Certainly for many Christians Jesus is presaged in places like the Book of
Isaiah, but this really is only a Christian interpretation. Of course there
are Jews for Jesus and other organisations such as the CJF you cite, but
they are at the extreme fringes and small in number. They are not a sign
that Jews in general are about to think that Jesus is their messiah.
Unfortunately the descendants of Jesus' followers were rather bad news for
Jews among their midst. The general restrictions on Jews' lives and the
Crusades are good examples. The Crusaders went about their business
murdering Jews on their way to 'liberating' the Holy Land.
You may recollect when President Bush talked about a "crusade" against
terror he elicited a rather negative response from a number of Muslim
quarters. Whilst to western/Christian ears this word may have been
innocuous it is loaded in Muslim ears. For Moslems the Crusades were also
rather bad news and in their vocabulary the more general meaning is not
known. I don't know enough about it but I suspect that "Jihad" may be
similar in western ears. The word may not always have such an ominous
meaning in Muslim terms.
The Israelites were indeed chosen for a mission as it was only they who
accepted God's commandments (at Sinai). Other nations were asked but
declined.
Of course this is from a biblical perspective only; independent
corroboration of the events is another matter.
Abram/Abraham's great act was to recognise the One God and turn his back on
the idolatory of his age. As you may know, his father's family business was
to make idols. In essence Abraham awoke one day, smashed the idols in the
workshop and left. The rest is history... :-)
The question of who a Jew is quite complicated even among Jews. Orthodox
and traditional Jews accept lineage through the mother (irrespective of
degree of observance), whereas 'reform' Jews may accept descent through the
father. In that sense you are still, to an extent, right that it's an
ethnic thing. However, people like Lustiger have committed what in
Christianity would be called apostasy (especially as he became a practising
minister) and are not considered Jews any more, whatever they may say about
themselves.
The body of Jewish belief and behaviour is encompassed by the Five Books of
Moses (the Pentateuch or the Written Law), the Oral Law (which was also
given to Moses to transmit to the Israelites and which was finally written
down about eighteen hundred years ago) and the Commentaries (these three in
essence being the Talmud) and some other books.
The Pentateuch alone is not enough. This section is the best known because
Christians have it as the first book. There are, indeed, some horrible
things in it but any implied behaviour was always tempered/modified by a
whole raft of restrictions in the Oral Law and the Commentaries. Two
examples are the general prohibition on eating milk and meat together, and
the death penalty.
In the Pentateuch there is only a reference to not cooking a kid in its
mother's milk (a reaction against contemporary heathen practices).
The death penalty is apparently to be applied to relatively minor (by
today's standards) offences but carrying it out was hedged about by many
conditions and restrictions. Any Sanhedrin (supreme court) that actually
carried out such a penalty was considered to be a bad one, so the number of
judicial executions in ancient Israel was actually quite small.
To me it is curious that the two 'daughters' of Judaism, Christianity and
Islam, both claim that their way is the only way to Salvation, an odd and
arrogant claim ignoring the happiness with their way of hundreds of millions
of Hindus, Buddhists and the like.
Judaism is a universalist faith that does not make this claim. In fact, a
non-Jew can achieve 'salvation' quicker by simply adhering to the seven
Noachide laws, none of which require the belief in the God of Abraham, Isaac
and Jacob.
All humans are seen as children of God, made in his image. A good example
is found in the recital of the story of the Exodus during the festival of
Passover. When the ten plagues are listed it is customary to spill a drop
of wine at each plague. Although God sent the plagues, especially the
slaying of the Egyptian first-born, in a good cause, it is imperative to
remember that the blood of God's children (the Egyptians) was spilt.
Some of the above is also a response to other posters.
In this thread many of the comments are half-truths and incorrect (springing
mainly from ignorance, I suspect). I hope that I have shed some additional
light.
DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---
"cp" <as...@asdf.com> wrote in message
news:ETtxe.123804$on1.98536@clgrps13...
cp
Wow, that's very rare to hear from a Jew. Though I've noticed that Russian Jews are much more open to discussion about this than
western Jews.
cp
cp
> race, but are a religion.
:-) yeh, I try not to get on the bad side of Jews here, they're a bit touchy and irrational in argument when they perceive they are
being criticized. As if the Jews have not recorded enough of their sins in the Old Testament to criticize. ooooops, I should watch
my mouth...what I write, people have been hauled in front of the "Human Rights Tribunal" for saying less here in Canada.
cp
cp
>> that isn't in agreement with the religion where as anyone
>> can become a jew if they believe in God.
>
> You only wish it was that easy! It isn't like Christianity where you read John 3:16 out loud, click your heels together three
> times, and you are in.
:-) Not at all. In order to be saved (become a born again Christian) you have to admit that you are a sinner and repent of your
sins, ask God to forgive them and to accept Christ as saviour. Without that no salvation.
cp
Dori A Schmetterling
Can't make the present management responsible for the sins of the
predecessors.
DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---
"Dori A Schmetterling" <n...@nospam.co.uk> wrote in message
news:42c6c3c1$0$13702$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
cp
> Germans by their parents.
>
> What hogwash. My mother was a Holocaust survivor, and never ONCE did I hear
> her utter anything negative about Germans.
Do I know your grandmother? Did I imply she said anything?
cp
cp
> because of the Nazi Holocaust, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon will now
> cruise in an armored BMW.
As if that war criminal had anything to feel righteous or indignant about.
cp
Dori A Schmetterling
My understanding is that Reconstructionist is further out than way... :-)
DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---
"El Bleacho" <ElBl...@Clorox.gov> wrote in message
news:9qzxe.4436$dU5...@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...
[...]
> The four major movements are Conservative, Orthodox, Reconstructionist,
> and Reform Judaism.
[...]
cp
>> pecking order on what is considered important to the Jewish community.
>
> I drive a Ferrari, so stick that in your anti-Semitic pie and smoke it.
What's "anti-Semitic" about what he wrote? Watch the wanton accusations of "anti-Semitism", people are getting really tired of
this.
cp
El Bleacho
> El Bleacho wrote:
> >> You can be a semite by ethnicity (decendant of Shem, actually), but
>> Judaism is a belief system and therefore you cannot be a Jew without
>> believing in the God of Abraham.
>
> still label themselves as Jewish. Then, only then, start complaining
> to us gentiles (is that a racial or a religious term?) of using the
> wrong definitions.
It is not my job to correct *all* people who wrongly tell others they are
Jewish when they are atheists. I am just correcting you on your assertion
that there are "Jewish Athiests", because you are wrong. When they come
into this thread with the same absurd assertion, I will try to fix them
too. The fact that you prefer to point to others and dodge your
(empirically proven) mistake is worrisome. Do you ever take credit for your
failures or mistakes? I ask because you did not do it here. And in answer
to your question, gentile would be relating to religion and not race.
Dori A Schmetterling
through the town in 1945?
Understandable behaviour but in disagreement of your statements.
DAS
--
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---
"cp" <as...@asdf.com> wrote in message
news:Nxrxe.122233$on1.113487@clgrps13...
[...]
> I'm Polish and I'm nuts about anything German, and why wouldn't I? Both
> sets of my family in Poland went through the war being occupied by Germans
> and Russians, had family butchered or laboured as slaves and yet none hold
> any hate for anyone, neither (perhaps a slight grudge) does any European I
> know who went through the war, and I know many. An old family acquaintance
> still has his Auschwitz tattoo, he also did not exhibit any hatred. A
> friend's grandfather who served in the Red Army was a POW and became
> friends with his captors after the war. No hatred there either. It's time
> to break the cycle of hatred and move on and not do what I saw on the
> History channel, 5 year old Jewish children imbued with hatred for
> Germans by their parents.
>
> cp
>
>
Dori A Schmetterling
DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---
"cp" <as...@asdf.com> wrote in message
news:gIzxe.126773$on1.76218@clgrps13...
[...]
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon will now
>> cruise in an armored BMW.
>
> [...] war criminal [...]
>
> cp
>
Dori A Schmetterling
http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/jews-jesus/jews-jesus-index.html
DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---
"cp" <as...@asdf.com> wrote in message
news:1qzxe.126764$on1.31037@clgrps13...
El Bleacho
> I've heard that there are some severely unflattering things written
> about gentiles in the Talmud, to put it mildly.
Not really. If we use Koran (which calls for the wholesale murder of all
Christians and Jews) the standard for outrageous belief; then Talmud is
rather mild.
> We're talking about Jews specifically. 'Jew' is a confused term but
> everyone uses it today to mean the biological descendants of Jacob
> (Israel).
Not everyone.
> Are you saying that all those atheist Jews are not at all Jews?
Totally.
> You've got it wrong, a Jew is a Jew by ethnicity, not religion.
Nope. You have it inverted, CP. That is why you can convert and become a
Jew. You cannot change you ethnicity. Well, other than Michael Jackson;
who converted from Black man to White female.
> Though the ethnicity was indeed defined by religion, God decreed that
> his chosen people would come through Jacob (Israel). Perhaps you want
> to tell the atheist or Christian Jews I know that they are not ethnic
> Jews?
They are screwing up. Or more to the point, being atheist they don't know
much about Judaism and are making an honest mistake. If they are athiest,
they are not Jewish. They can say there were "born Jewish" or "of Jewish
parents" or "of a Semitic lineage", but they most certainly are not Jews.
> I have no clue if they have biological ancestry to Jacob and
> don't care but I won't argue with them whether they are Jews or not.
> Though I refuse to listen to a Russian Jewish friend's nonsense that
> he has a right to Israel after his family (supposedly) being away
> from Israel for 2000 years.
My family comes from Russia in the 1880's; and I have a right of return to
Israel. Not sure where you are going with this though - keep in mind that
in Europe almost every Jew was exterminated. The ones that survived had
every penny stolen from them; and since England was anti-Semitic it
volunteered to give the land it captured in 1917 under General Ashby
(Palestine/Israel) to the United Nations so they could place the surviving
Jews there (UN resolution 181). Now granted I have spent time in Israel
and have family there; but I am an American in my heart and on my passport.
When the day comes that Muslims outpace Jews in USA and it becomes unsafe to
be a Jew here; I am sure going to be glad I have a right of return to
Israel.
>> In Genesis, God used Abram, from Ur, the actual Iran, to start the
>> "people of God", the "chosen people".
>
> What is meant by "chosen people"? Do you know?
You better believe I know, They were chosen by God to be in a covenant with
Him.
>> Biblically, Tanakh says that Abram is the first Jew, not Jacob.
>
> Where does it say that?
God said it.
""I am God Almighty. Walk before me, and be blameless. And I will make my
covenant between me and you, and will make you exceedingly numerous. As for
me, this is my covenant with you: You shall be the ancestor of a multitude
of nations. No longer shall your name be Abram, but your name shall be
Abraham; for I have made you the ancestor of a multitude of nations. I will
make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings
shall come from you. I will establish my covenant between me and you, and
your offspring after you throughout their generations, for an everlasting
covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. And I will give
to you, and to your offspring after you, the land where you are now an
alien, all the land of Canaan, for a perpetual holding; and I will be their
God."
> You better read the Tanakh again.
Tell me how many times you sat in Hebrew school and had to memorize Tanakh.
When you did 10 years in a NY Hebrew School for 4 hours a day; we can talk
about what you think you know better than I.
This is almost funny - a goyim telling a Jew to read Tanakh.
> He's the ancestor of ALL people, so we're all Jews then?
Tanakh does not say that there were no other homo sapiens. It just says
Adam was the first in His image. Adam has a soul.
> Judaism and Old Testament make no sense without the New Testament.
ROFL. Really? The New Testament is written about a person who said he was
Messiah and then failed to fulfill Old Testament. Not only that, he
violated Law.
> Let me tell you what the reality is: Jesus Christ is the Messiah
God Himself refutes that lie.
1) Jesus did not build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
2) Jesus did not gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
3) Jesus did not usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred,
oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up
sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
4) Jesus did not spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will
unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world --
on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
5) Jesus violated Torah: The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full
Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot (commandments) remain
binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately
identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)
6) Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states
that its commandments are no longer applicable. (see John 1:45 and 9:16,
Acts 3:22 and 7:37) For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste
in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He
does not observe Shabbat!"
7) Jesus was a test for Jews: Judaism, unique among all of the world's
major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its
religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of
"miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah
(Deut. 13:4).
8) Jesus existance as Son of Man violated Old Testament as follows: The
Catholic idea of Trinity breaks God into three separate beings: The Father,
the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).
Contrast this to the Shema, the basis of Jewish belief: "Hear O Israel, the
Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4). Jews declare the Shema every
day, while writing it on doorposts (Mezuzah), and binding it to the hand and
head (Tefillin). This statement of God's One-ness is the first words a
Jewish child is taught to say, and the last words uttered before a Jew dies.
9) Jesus violated the Ten Commandments: In Judaism, prayer is a totally
private matter, between each individual and God. As the Bible says: "God is
near to all who call unto Him" (Psalms 145:18). Further, the Ten
Commandments state: "You shall have no other gods BEFORE ME," meaning that
it is forbidden to set up a mediator between God and man. (see Maimonides -
Laws of Idolatry ch. 1)
El Bleacho
> I drive a Ferrari, so stick that in your anti-Semitic pie and smoke
> it.
Mussolini, Mickey. Sell your Ferrari and buy a Viper. You will feel better
for it. :-)
Oh, and parts/service is less expensive.
El Bleacho
OK; so that kills another what - 13 seconds? Anyone can be a Christian.
It's the religion of murderous inmates - easiest way to be forgiven for
raping and hacking a 7 year old girl into 20 pieces. We Jews prefer to do
it the old fashioned way - stand before God Almighty and answer for our
sins. That's why we celebrate annually about getting our names into the
book of life for one more year. A man has to pay for his transgressions.
Well, unless he is a Christian - then he can do any damn thing he pleases.
El Bleacho
BWHAHAHAHA. When you convert to Judaism, do you glue Semitic skin to your
body? "It puts the lotion on it's skin". HAHAHAHAHAHA Judaism is a
religion, not an ethnicity. There are Black Jews, Caucasian Jews,
Hispanic Jews, and evne American Indian Jews. Did they change their
ethnicity when they became Jews?!?!?!!
Boy, you say some funny stuff sometimes, CP! :-)
Mickey
> >> the History channel, 5 year old Jewish children imbued with hatred for
> > Germans by their parents.
> >
> > What hogwash. My mother was a Holocaust survivor, and never ONCE did I
hear
> > her utter anything negative about Germans.
>
> Do I know your grandmother?
No, she hung out in better circles.
> Did I imply she said anything?
Yes, you certainly did.
Henry Kolesnik
in Japan refused to buy anything made in Japan. He paid dearly for a
General Instruments industrial grade VCR made in USA. I told him the
tramsport was probably Japanese which he later checked and confirmed and on
the next visit there was no VCR, he got his money back.
When one of his daughters bought a Toyota he wouldn't speak to her for quite
a while and when he did he asked her to never bring the Toyota to his house.
In Japan as a POW he was forced to work building Toyota engines that were to
be used in the Kamakazee boats that were loaded with explosives to hit US
destroyers. He said they would sabotage the engines in any clandestine way
they could and if caught all on that line were shot.
--
73
Hank WD5JFR
"CaptainW116" <benzn...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1120280888.8...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> That being said,Mitsubishi should be boycotted also! US POWs' during
> WWII were used as slave labor and many died on the "DEATH MARCH" to
> these plants.
>
The Spanish Inquisition
> It is not my job to correct *all* people who wrongly tell others they are
> Jewish when they are atheists. I am just correcting you on your assertion
> that there are "Jewish Athiests", because you are wrong. When they come
> into this thread with the same absurd assertion, I will try to fix them
> too. The fact that you prefer to point to others and dodge your
> (empirically proven) mistake is worrisome. Do you ever take credit for your
> failures or mistakes? I ask because you did not do it here. And in answer
> to your question, gentile would be relating to religion and not race.
Definitions and language are in constant movement. If a large enough
group of people insist on using the wrong definition, that definition
will automatically become the correct one. (my dictionary already gives
these two meanings, I don't really care what's in the bible)
Many of us IT people have fought endless battles against ignorants who
use the words hacker or virus in the wrong circumstances. These battles
are useless. The meanings of the words have changed and we have to live
with it. This would be my advice to you... ;)
Ximinez
--
Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...
and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope....
http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/paulfitz/spanish/t1.html
Mickey
> Mickey wrote:
> > I drive a Ferrari, so stick that in your anti-Semitic pie and smoke
> > it.
>
> Mussolini, Mickey. Sell your Ferrari and buy a Viper. You will feel
better
> for it. :-)
>
> Oh, and parts/service is less expensive.
Ah, but this one was made in England. It is the 1989 McLaren Ferrari, one of
only 237, and parts are impossible. Then again, I eat Vipers as mid-day
snacks :)
Mickey
El Bleacho
> Ah, but this one was made in England. It is the 1989 McLaren Ferrari,
> one of only 237, and parts are impossible. Then again, I eat Vipers
> as mid-day snacks :)
Can't eat mine! I have some Hennessy stuff in my GTS.
El Bleacho
> "cp" <as...@asdf.com> wrote in message
> news:uGzxe.126772$on1.94798@clgrps13...
>>>> the History channel, 5 year old Jewish children imbued with
>>>> hatred for Germans by their parents.
>>>
>>> What hogwash. My mother was a Holocaust survivor, and never ONCE
>>> did I hear her utter anything negative about Germans.
>>
>> Do I know your grandmother?
>
> No, she hung out in better circles.
Dood - don't make me laugh. I am so fucking sick. My eyes hurt, it hurts
to cough, yada yada.
The Spanish Inquisition
> It is not my job to correct *all* people who wrongly tell others they are
> Jewish when they are atheists. I am just correcting you on your assertion
> that there are "Jewish Athiests", because you are wrong. When they come
> into this thread with the same absurd assertion, I will try to fix them
> too. The fact that you prefer to point to others and dodge your
> (empirically proven) mistake is worrisome. Do you ever take credit for your
> failures or mistakes? I ask because you did not do it here. And in answer
> to your question, gentile would be relating to religion and not race.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=jew
The Jews
He rode in an armored BMW- you take the bus. That makes *me* feel
pretty righteous, heh heh.
El Bleacho
> Many of us IT people have fought endless battles against ignorants who
> use the words hacker or virus in the wrong circumstances. These
> battles are useless. The meanings of the words have changed and we
> have to live with it. This would be my advice to you... ;)
I am a computer scientist. Logic is part of my daily existance. I cannot
see how people can call Judaism an ethnicity. When you convert to Judaism,
your skin does not suddenly turn olive like the Semitic tribes of North
Africa / Middle East. If I convert to African Americanism; will my penis
grow 10 inches? Judaism is a religion. Part of the religion involved a
homeland, Israel; but it is a religion nevertheless.
Mickey
> Mickey wrote:
> > Ah, but this one was made in England. It is the 1989 McLaren Ferrari,
> > one of only 237, and parts are impossible. Then again, I eat Vipers
> > as mid-day snacks :)
>
> Can't eat mine! I have some Hennessy stuff in my GTS.
0-60, 3.7
0-100 5.6
:)
Dori A Schmetterling
Especially as the Japanese governmen has never fully acknowledged the crimes
in the way the German government did.
DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---
"Henry Kolesnik" <kole...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:12Bxe.2603$Ox3....@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>A friends father who survived the Baatan Death March and Japanese POW camp
[...]
El Bleacho
> El Bleacho wrote:
>
>> It is not my job to correct *all* people who wrongly tell others
>> they are Jewish when they are atheists. I am just correcting you on
>> your assertion that there are "Jewish Athiests", because you are
>> wrong. When they come into this thread with the same absurd assertion,
>> I will try to fix them too. The fact that you prefer
>> to point to others and dodge your (empirically proven) mistake is
>> worrisome. Do you ever take credit for your failures or mistakes? I ask
>> because you did not do it here. And in answer to your
>> question, gentile would be relating to religion and not race.
>
> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=jew
Hey. Also check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew.
Dood - you are an IT person. If you remove the router and frame relay, is
it still an operational network? Of course not. You cannot remove religion
and have a Jew. There cannot be a Jewish Athiest. He can only be (at best)
an Athiest of Semitic descent.
El Bleacho
Off N2O
0-60 3.6
Fogging N2O (250 HP dual wet shot)
0-60 2.9
BTW, when I keep my reaction time under 0.9 seconds; My runs are hovering
right around 7 seconds. And this track has a 1 degree upward grade: If you
live here in the southeast, you could come visit some weekend!
http://www.southeasterndragway.com/
cp
Nobody said Judaism is an ethnicity. I don't know about logic being a part of your daily existence. I explained what it is, a Jew is
a Jew apart from his religion.
> If I convert to African Americanism; will my penis grow 10 inches?
You lacking something?
> Judaism is a religion. Part of the religion involved a homeland, Israel; but it is a religion nevertheless.
Yes, but Jews are, whether they are religous or not, biological descendants of Abraham through Jacob (AKA Israel)
cp
The Spanish Inquisition
> The Spanish Inquisition wrote:
>
>>El Bleacho wrote:
>>
>>>It is not my job to correct *all* people who wrongly tell others
>>>they are Jewish when they are atheists. I am just correcting you on
>>>your assertion that there are "Jewish Athiests", because you are
>>>wrong. When they come into this thread with the same absurd assertion,
>>>I will try to fix them too. The fact that you prefer
>>>to point to others and dodge your (empirically proven) mistake is
>>>worrisome. Do you ever take credit for your failures or mistakes? I ask
>>>because you did not do it here. And in answer to your
>>>question, gentile would be relating to religion and not race.
>>
>>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=jew
>
> Hey. Also check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew.
Exactly: "The word Jew (Hebrew: יהודי) is used in a wide number of ways,
but generally refers to a follower of the Jewish faith, a child of a
Jewish mother, or someone of Jewish descent with a connection to Jewish
culture or ethnicity and often a combination of these attributes. This
article discusses the term as describing an ethnic group; for a
consideration of the religion, please refer to Judaism."
> Dood - you are an IT person. If you remove the router and frame relay, is
> it still an operational network?
Well, actually, a few PC's, some cat5 cable and a hub would make a great
network. No router or frame-relay needed.
> it still an operational network? Of course not. You cannot remove religion
> and have a Jew. There cannot be a Jewish Athiest. He can only be (at best)
> an Athiest of Semitic descent.
Do you ever take credit for your failures or mistakes? I ask because you
did not do it here. ;)
(BTW, we atheists prefer our 'faith' to be spelled correctly)
cp
>
> http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/jews-jesus/jews-jesus-index.html
Sorry, nothing new and revealing.
cp
Mickey
news:42c6e005$0$13707$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
> Dislike of the Japanese is still rife all over SE Asia and China.
> Especially as the Japanese governmen has never fully acknowledged the
crimes
> in the way the German government did.
While I agree with Madame Butterfly here, I also think it is LONG past time
to bury the past.
Mickey
Mickey
> > I cannot see how people can call Judaism an ethnicity.
>
> Nobody said Judaism is an ethnicity. I don't know about logic being a part
of your daily existence. I explained what it is, a Jew is
> a Jew apart from his religion.
Nope, ut thanks for playing. And you wonder why I called you an anti-Semite?
>
> > If I convert to African Americanism; will my penis grow 10 inches?
>
> You lacking something?
>
> > Judaism is a religion. Part of the religion involved a homeland,
Israel; but it is a religion nevertheless.
>
> Yes, but Jews are, whether they are religous or not, biological
descendants of Abraham through Jacob (AKA Israel)
And those that converted in the last, ohhh, say 400 years or so?
Good grief.
>
> cp
>
>
Mickey
I have a pair of bottles, but I don't leave them hooked up. I have never
timed her running on those, but it gave me a neck-ache when I did try them.
Mickey
SMITH29
> cp wrote:
>
>>>>Judism is a religion. Sometimes Hebrews are called Jew but
>>>>that isn't in agreement with the religion where as anyone
>>>>can become a jew if they believe in God.
>>>
>>>You only wish it was that easy!
From the teachings of Rabbi Levine.
http://www.historylink.org/essays/output.cfm?file_id=7299
El Bleacho
> Do you ever take credit for your failures or mistakes?
All the time.
> ask because
> you did not do it here. ;)
I am not wrong. A person cannot be a Jewish athiest. To be Jewish, you
have to believe in the religion (among other things).
> (BTW, we atheists prefer our 'faith' to be spelled correctly)
On Usenet that is not an option. I do not have my own personal editor.
El Bleacho
>> I cannot see how people can call Judaism an ethnicity.
>
> Nobody said Judaism is an ethnicity. I don't know about logic being a
> part of your daily existence. I explained what it is, a Jew is a Jew
> apart from his religion.
No. As soon as a Jew becomes an athiest, he is no longer a Jew.
El Bleacho
> I have a pair of bottles, but I don't leave them hooked up. I have
> never timed her running on those, but it gave me a neck-ache when I
> did try them.
I left them hooked up for an entire year in my 03 Z06, and then someone
told me it was highly illegal and I better never get pulled over. That's
when I decided I shouldn't leave these Zex bottles hooked up 24x7; I don't
want Barney Fife to tow these cars.
Dori A Schmetterling
to you, why do you maintain your position on the messiah (as far as Jews are
concerned)?
DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---
"cp" <as...@asdf.com> wrote in message
news:5qBxe.126873$on1.119064@clgrps13...
[...]
Dori A Schmetterling
Japanese government to admit the guilt of the wartime regime and pay
compensation.
Sorry to tell you this, but what you think is irrelevant. Nor is it your
place to tell the millions of victims and their descendants what to think.
DAS
--
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---
"Mickey" <mic...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ToCdnXaiqIC...@comcast.com...
[...]
rowan smith
> El Bleacho wrote:
>
>> J Young wrote:
>>
>>> One thing that has always baffled me is why do Jews drive BMW's, or
>>> Mercedes Benz, or Volkswagen?
>>
>>
>>
>> Don't look at me. I drive a Jaguar.
>>
> don't look at me. i'm catholic.
relax..... it was just a joke eh?
The Spanish Inquisition
> You try telling that to several million Chinese. And try to get the
> Japanese government to admit the guilt of the wartime regime and pay
> compensation.
>
> Sorry to tell you this, but what you think is irrelevant. Nor is it your
> place to tell the millions of victims and their descendants what to think.
He's as entitled to voice his own opinion as I am entitled to agree with
him. There should a statute of limitations on these war compensations.
There are barely any Japanese or German ex-soldiers left.
Our thoughts are as relevant as anyone's...
Dori A Schmetterling
Especially under those circumstances.
DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---
"The Spanish Inquisition" <xim...@myown.mailcan.com> wrote in message
news:42c6ea4a$0$74546$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
[...]
The Spanish Inquisition
> It's the implication that it is wrong of all those people to remember.
> Especially under those circumstances.
I don't think burying the past implies forgetting about it.
Mickey
> Mickey wrote:
> > I have a pair of bottles, but I don't leave them hooked up. I have
> > never timed her running on those, but it gave me a neck-ache when I
> > did try them.
>
> I left them hooked up for an entire year in my 03 Z06, and then someone
> told me it was highly illegal and I better never get pulled over. That's
> when I decided I shouldn't leave these Zex bottles hooked up 24x7; I
don't
> want Barney Fife to tow these cars.
Exactly :)
Mickey
cp
> messiah (as far as Jews are concerned)?
Of course it contradicts my views. My point is that those objections that you link to have been refuted and I'm not going to get
into them, as there are many articles that can be found on Google to contest those objections, written by capable people, unlike
myself. Of course, in saying that in no way does it prove that those objections are false. A seeker of truth will analyze all
reasonable arguments until all the pieces of the puzzle are in place and the truth is self evident from the complete picture. I have
looked at the arguments which attempt to refute the objections you link and those arguments make much more sense. Google it :-)
I could be wrong of course but I believe I have been thorough enough in moulding my perceptions to reality. Until an argument comes
along that refutes my views I will not budge, makes sense, eh? That's if I will understant the argument :-)
cp
cp
> of your daily existence. I explained what it is, a Jew is
>> a Jew apart from his religion.
>
> Nope, ut thanks for playing. And you wonder why I called you an anti-Semite?
think of me as an 'anti-semite' shows the extent of your intelligence. As for being a semite, do you look at all like one?
> And those that converted in the last, ohhh, say 400 years or so?
As I've mentioned, that's what was my contention with my Russian Jewish friend who claimed he has a right to Israel. What proof does
he have that he is descended from Jacob AKA Israel? It's not enough to convert. Even if he is descended from Israel what right does
he have to come back to and claim a land his ancestors left 2000 years ago? Perhaps not all are Jews who claim to be Jews. Not that
it really matters, but for argument's sake.
cp
cp
I rest my case, there's only so far that one can go.
cp
Mickey
> You try telling that to several million Chinese. And try to get the
> Japanese government to admit the guilt of the wartime regime and pay
> compensation.
>
> Sorry to tell you this, but what you think is irrelevant. Nor is it your
> place to tell the millions of victims and their descendants what to think.
Nor did I, despite your presumption of guilt. I simply said that *I* thought
it was time to leave the past in the past. Note the not so subtle difference
there, Madame Butterfly?
Mickey
> It's the implication that it is wrong of all those people to remember.
> Especially under those circumstances.
My exact words were:
"While I agree with Madame Butterfly here, I also think it is LONG past time
to bury the past."
Now, please point out the "implication" you are referring to, Madame
Butterfly
Mickey
cp
huh? My contention is that converting to Judaism does not make one a Jew, I don't know of any Jews personally who would disagree
with that. Though the Law does make an allowance for a person to be accepted into Israel if they convert.....
>"It puts the lotion on it's skin". HAHAHAHAHAHA Judaism is a religion, not an ethnicity.
I'm saying that a Jew is a Jew apart from whatever religion he is.
> There are Black Jews, Caucasian Jews, Hispanic Jews, and evne American Indian Jews. Did they change their ethnicity when they
> became Jews?!?!?!!
They changed their religion, that's different.
> Boy, you say some funny stuff sometimes, CP! :-)
It may sound funny but I'm saying that a person is a Jew by blood, not religion. :)
>ere are Black Jews, Caucasian Jews, Hispanic Jews, and evne American Indian Jews.
Well, geee, could one ever be accused of being anti-semitic by criticizing the above "Jews"?
cp
cp
> it was time to leave the past in the past. Note the not so subtle difference
> there, Madame Butterfly?
It's Monsieur Butterfly. 'Butterfly' such a nicer word in French or in Spanish....but I digress.
cp
Mickey
> >> Nobody said Judaism is an ethnicity. I don't know about logic being a
part
> > of your daily existence. I explained what it is, a Jew is
> >> a Jew apart from his religion.
> >
> > Nope, ut thanks for playing. And you wonder why I called you an
anti-Semite?
> One more time, refrain from reckless accusations of 'anti-semitism', they
are self-fulfilling. That you would read what I wrote and
> think of me as an 'anti-semite' shows the extent of your intelligence. As
for being a semite, do you look at all like one?
It certainly does. I know one when I see one.
>
> > And those that converted in the last, ohhh, say 400 years or so?
>
> As I've mentioned, that's what was my contention with my Russian Jewish
friend who claimed he has a right to Israel. What proof does
> he have that he is descended from Jacob AKA Israel? It's not enough to
convert. Even if he is descended from Israel what right does
> he have to come back to and claim a land his ancestors left 2000 years
ago? Perhaps not all are Jews who claim to be Jews. Not that
> it really matters, but for argument's sake.
What proof does he need? I can trace my lines back, not a single Arab can,
therefor my ONE claim outweighs ANY claims Arabs have. Any other Jews came
come at MY behest. Now there are probably 20,000 other Jews that can also
trace their lines back, but all we need is ONE.
cp
>
> Understandable behaviour but in disagreement of your statements.
That was 1945, not 2005.
cp
cp
----------------------
Hi Dori,
> You posit a very Christian perspective, which is fine as long as you realise that it is just that.
Yes, I made that clear, that I'm coming from a Christian perspective which I
believe makes much more sense judging from what is revealed in the Old
Testament/Tanakh.
> From a Jewish point of view the Christian scriptures are irrelevant and, no, the Hebrew bible/scriptures do not 'need' the
> Christian bible to make sense.
Oh yes it does, do a close reading of the Old Testament/Tanakh. Assuming
that you are a Jew, if you don't believe that the Old Testament/Tanakh is
inspired then this is an entirely different matter but if you do believe
that the Old Testament/Tanakh is inspired then I suggest you do a very deep
and serious study of it. And see what the arguments are that Jesus was the
Messiah.
> Jesus may be an important historical figure but he decidedly does not fulfil the conditions of being the Jewish Messiah, even if
> one or two of the Gospels make an attempt to show Davidic lineage (which, in itself, is insufficient).
Never mind the gospels, read what I said about the temple records and the
necessity in the Old Testament/Tanakh that it be demonstrated that the
Christ is a direct descendant of David. Today it cannot in any way be done.
> Certainly for many Christians Jesus is presaged in places like the Book of Isaiah, but this really is only a Christian
> interpretation. Of course there are Jews for Jesus and other organisations such as the CJF you cite, but they are at the extreme
> fringes and small in number. They are not a sign that Jews in general are about to think that Jesus is their messiah.
Of course. What I'm saying is do a detailed study of the arguments and see
why many Jews have been convinced that Jesus was the Messiah and are willing
to be ostracized by their own people for their beliefs.
> Unfortunately the descendants of Jesus' followers were rather bad news for Jews among their midst. The general restrictions on
> Jews' lives and the Crusades are good examples. The Crusaders went about their business murdering Jews on their way to
> 'liberating' the Holy Land.
What does that have to do with Christ being Messiah? 'By their deeds you
shall them.'
> You may recollect when President Bush talked about a "crusade" against terror he elicited a rather negative response from a number
> of Muslim quarters. Whilst to western/Christian ears this word may have been innocuous it is loaded in Muslim ears. For Moslems
> the Crusades were also rather bad news and in their vocabulary the more general meaning is not known. I don't know enough about
> it but I suspect that "Jihad" may be similar in western ears. The word may not always have such an ominous meaning in Muslim
> terms.
I'm not concerned with the Muslims and George Bush is a fool who better see
the light before he dies.
> The Israelites were indeed chosen for a mission as it was only they who accepted God's commandments (at Sinai). Other nations
> were asked but declined.
> Of course this is from a biblical perspective only; independent corroboration of the events is another matter.
What Biblical perspective? You have to understand that the typical Christian
is much better versed in the Old Testament/Tanakh than a typical religous
Jew. What you say appears nowhere in the Bible. I explained what is meant by
the Jews being the "chosen" people in my longer post. It makes much more
sense than this racist view that Jews have, that the infinite supreme being
condescended to Jews alone, no? What is meant by the Jews being a light to
the world?
> Abram/Abraham's great act was to recognise the One God and turn his back on the idolatory of his age. As you may know, his
> father's family business was to make idols. In essence Abraham awoke one day, smashed the idols in the workshop and left. The
> rest is history... :-)
Basically yes :-)
> The question of who a Jew is quite complicated even among Jews. Orthodox and traditional Jews accept lineage through the mother
> (irrespective of degree of observance), whereas 'reform' Jews may accept descent through the father.
That's a religous matter, it is irrelevant as to ethnicity.
> In that sense you are still, to an extent, right that it's an ethnic thing. However, people like Lustiger have committed what in
> Christianity would be called apostasy (especially as he became a practising minister) and are not considered Jews any more,
> whatever they may say about themselves.
Yes, but he is still an ethnic Jew. I dare you to come and tell the atheist
and Christian Jews I know that they are not Jews. I did once to one Russian
Jew and he retorted with the typical rabid accusation of anti-semitism. At
which I pointed out that in no way is he a semite and has no way of proving
it as he does not resemble one at all, at which he was intelligent enough to
shut up. :-) One blonde "Jew" was very surprised when he went to Israel and
couldn't tell many Jews apart from the Arabs. Heck, I read in a Haaretz
article that Jewish fathers in Tel Aviv were complaining that they couldn't
tell whether the boys their daughters were going out with were Jews or Arabs
:-) I know of one family of Semitic Jews from Israel who run a Benz parts
place, these guys were very surprised to meet someone in Canada who has the
same views as themselves, I tell you, I got some good deals there :-) I
mentioned this to my Russian Jewish friend who had lived in Israel and he
said that the Semitic Jews are irrelevant. Very eye openining.
> The body of Jewish belief and behaviour is encompassed by the Five Books of Moses (the Pentateuch or the Written Law),
Yes, but the entire Tanakh is inspired. Though some religous Jews don't
believe that of course.
> the Oral Law (which was also given to Moses to transmit to the Israelites and which was finally written down about eighteen
> hundred years ago) and the Commentaries (these three in essence being the Talmud) and some other books.
The "Oral Law" and the Commentaries are not inspired, and are prohibitive
ornamentation to the Law as given to Moses.
> The Pentateuch alone is not enough.
That view is the problem. Why is it not enough?
> This section is the best known because Christians have it as the first book. There are, indeed, some horrible things in it
I assume you mean the genocidal wars. They were necessary and ordained by
God, who defines and upholds all life and has the right to disintegrate it
if he so chooses, not that the supreme being needs anyones approval. The
Canaanites were warned for hundreds of years that they must stop their
utterly evil living (read a bit about what archaeologists have dug up about
life in those times) and they did not, so God removed them, as there could
not be any corrupting influence on his people through whom the Saviour of
the world would come. Notice this makes much more sense than the racist
rabbinical teachings that God will save the Jews only.
> but any implied behaviour was always tempered/modified by a whole raft of restrictions in the Oral Law and the Commentaries. Two
> examples are the general prohibition the death penalty.
Study all of them and see if the Law needs the "Oral Law" and the
Commentaries. I haven't taken a detailed look into them but from what I do
know they are destructive to the intentions of the Law as given to Moses. It
was hard enough to keep the Law by itself, why make it even more impossible?
>on eating milk and meat together, and
Not very healthy to eat those together.
> In the Pentateuch there is only a reference to not cooking a kid in its mother's milk (a reaction against contemporary heathen
> practices).
> The death penalty is apparently to be applied to relatively minor (by today's standards) offences but carrying it out was hedged
> about by many conditions and restrictions. Any Sanhedrin (supreme court) that actually carried out such a penalty was considered
> to be a bad one, so the number of judicial executions in ancient Israel was actually quite small.
That's very true. Israel was to be kept clean of all sin. Though there's
more to it than that.
> To me it is curious that the two 'daughters' of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, both claim that their way is the only way to
> Salvation,
I don't know if you want to call Islam a 'daughters' of Judaism, it was a
religion founded by a man who adapted local beliefs about the moon god Allah
and amalgamated them with religious stories which he heard from Christian
and Jewish traders. Christianity however, was formed by Jews and Jews alone.
> an odd and arrogant claim ignoring the happiness with their way of hundreds of millions of Hindus, Buddhists and the like.
This has nothing to do with arrogance. It is to do with absolute truth. If
it can be demonstrated that Christianity is true and that the only way to be
saved is through Jesus Christ then all other beliefs and religions fall away
like dross and are irrelevant. If it can be shown to be true, would you
argue with the infinite supreme being who holds this universe together
moment by moment and has decreed only one way of salvation? If it's not true
then of course it does not matter. "arrogance" is irrelevant; if everyone
believes that 1+1=3 and I point out that 1+1=2 or if people do not believe
that an equilateral triangle has sides of equal length and I point out that
it does, am I being "arrogant" or just correct?
Whereever did you get the idea that the God as revealed by Jewish scriptures
is a relativist?
> Judaism is a universalist faith that does not make this claim.
So what is Judaism in a nutshell?
> In fact, a non-Jew can achieve 'salvation' quicker by simply adhering to the seven Noachide laws, none of which require the belief
> in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
If 'salvation' is quicker by "simply adhering to the seven Noachide laws"
than why even bother for Jews with the Law and the prohibitive "Oral Law"
and commentaries?
What is salvation and where does it say what you write in the Tanakh?
> All humans are seen as children of God, made in his image. A good example is found in the recital of the story of the Exodus
> during the festival of Passover. When the ten plagues are listed it is customary to spill a drop of wine at each plague.
> Although God sent the plagues, especially the slaying of the Egyptian first-born, in a good cause, it is imperative to remember
> that the blood of God's children (the Egyptians) was spilt.
yes
> Some of the above is also a response to other posters.
>
> In this thread many of the comments are half-truths and incorrect (springing mainly from ignorance, I suspect). I hope that I
> have shed some additional light.
I'm sorry but the above applies to you as well.
So yeah, how is that benz of yours? :-)
cp
Mickey
El Bleacho
> As I've mentioned, that's what was my contention with my Russian
> Jewish friend who claimed he has a right to Israel. What proof does
> he have that he is descended from Jacob AKA Israel? It's not enough
> to convert.
How dare you presume to be so self important that you outweigh the United
Nations Resolution 181? They gave Israel the right to self govern and
proclaimed her a country. She, as a self sustaining government decided to
extend "right of return" to all Jews. Who are you to say that she has no
right to do that? What or who empowers you to have the right to decide the
moralilty of world governments; and to trump the resolutions of the United
Nations? You apparently know less about politics than you do about Old
Testament.
Dori A Schmetterling
Or maybe you are one of those Asians affected by Japanese war crimes? And
waiting for a full recognition and apology and maybe compensation...
DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---
"Mickey" <mic...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:op-dnZKa15p...@comcast.com...
[...]
Mickey
> Your suggestion that you can think it's time for them to bury the past...
I didn't suggest any such thing. Please be so kind as to keep YOUR words out
of MY mouth. I simply offered MY opinion. Are you capable of understanding
the difference or not?
>
> Or maybe you are one of those Asians affected by Japanese war crimes? And
> waiting for a full recognition and apology and maybe compensation...
And that is THEIR problem. I refuse to make it mine.
Mickey
Mickey
And who is HE to tell me who is and is not welcome in MY homeland?
Mickey
El Bleacho
>> BWHAHAHAHA. When you convert to Judaism, do you glue Semitic skin
>> to your body?
>
> huh? My contention is that converting to Judaism does not make one a
> Jew, I don't know of any Jews personally who would disagree with
> that.
I completely disagree. Once you convert to Judiasm, you are a Jew. Any
Jew will tell you that.
> Though the Law does make an allowance for a person to be
> accepted into Israel if they convert.....
It is not that they are "making an allowance", CP. If you convert to
Judaism, you have all the rights that Israel gives with regard to "right of
return".
> I'm saying that a Jew is a Jew apart from whatever religion he is.
And I am saying if a Jew becomes an athiest, he is no longer a Jew. He has
chosen something other than Judaism.
> They changed their religion, that's different.
>
>> Boy, you say some funny stuff sometimes, CP! :-)
>
> It may sound funny but I'm saying that a person is a Jew by blood,
> not religion. :)
No. He can be a Jew by both (as am I), but you can be a Jew by religion.
That is what conversion is. And your assertion that someone who converts is
less of a Jew is unfair and untrue. You do not know much about Judaism.
Mickey
> > BWHAHAHAHA. When you convert to Judaism, do you glue Semitic skin to
your body?
>
> huh? My contention
Is about as irrelevant as anything could be. Why would ANY Jew give a raging
rat's ass what an idiotic gentile thinks? WE will decided who is and who is
not Jewish, not YOU. Get it yet, poindexter?
El Bleacho
> Oh yes it does, do a close reading of the Old Testament/Tanakh.
> Assuming that you are a Jew, if you don't believe that the Old
> Testament/Tanakh is inspired then this is an entirely different
> matter but if you do believe that the Old Testament/Tanakh is
> inspired then I suggest you do a very deep and serious study of it.
> And see what the arguments are that Jesus was the Messiah.
Jesus did not fulfill Old Testament. Jesus was a test for Jews. Any
Jew that allowed themselves to be snookered by this false prophet failed the
test:
Deut 13:4 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or unto
that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God putteth you to proof, to know
whether ye do love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your
soul.
cp
You serious? How far can you go? THAT is impressive.
>not a single Arab can, therefor my ONE claim outweighs ANY claims Arabs have.
The Arabs were already living there.
> Any other Jews came come at MY behest.
Talk about arrogant.
> Now there are probably 20,000 other Jews that can also
> trace their lines back, but all we need is ONE.
How far can they trace them and how authoritive are these records? The line that is required has to be descended from David, if one
was known don't you think religious Jews would watch what was happening with these descendants 24/7?
cp
Mickey
> > What proof does he need? I can trace my lines back,
>
> You serious? How far can you go? THAT is impressive.
over 2800 years, in Tiberias.
>
> >not a single Arab can, therefor my ONE claim outweighs ANY claims Arabs
have.
>
> The Arabs were already living there.
Nope, not a one of them back then.
>
> > Any other Jews came come at MY behest.
>
> Talk about arrogant.
Yes, my house is MY house. If you think that is arrogant, tough.
>
> > Now there are probably 20,000 other Jews that can also
> > trace their lines back, but all we need is ONE.
>
> How far can they trace them and how authoritive are these records? The
line that is required has to be descended from David, if one
> was known don't you think religious Jews would watch what was happening
with these descendants 24/7?
>
I am of the house of David, traced by 2800+ years ago. I know the names of
every relative going back that far, as it is all on the walls of the house I
was born in, so again, what claim does ANY Arab who came there after have to
MY homeland? Say an Arab like Yassir Terrorfat, who was bornin Egypt to an
Egypitian father and an Egyptian mother, both of whom had Egyptian parents?
Please tell me, I just can't WAIT to hear this.
>
>
Dori A Schmetterling
DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---
"cp" <as...@asdf.com> wrote in message
news:7GCxe.126882$on1.82072@clgrps13...
> hmm I thought I posted a reply to this...
> ----------------------
>
> Hi Dori,
>
[...]
>
> Oh yes it does, do a close reading of the Old Testament/Tanakh. Assuming
> that you are a Jew, if you don't believe that the Old Testament/Tanakh is
> inspired then this is an entirely different matter but if you do believe
> that the Old Testament/Tanakh is inspired then I suggest you do a very
> deep
> and serious study of it. And see what the arguments are that Jesus was the
> Messiah.
FROM DAS: I don't understand what you are saying here. The traditional
Jewish view is that in essence God dictated the law to Moses, who wrote
(some of) it down. The modern 'reformed' forms of Judaism see divine
inspiration rather than divine dictation. From any Jewish perspective there
is no "Old" testament, with its requirement for a "new" one. There was one
revelation at Sinai and no revision since.
>
>> Jesus may be an important historical figure but he decidedly does not
>> fulfil the conditions of being the Jewish Messiah, even if one or two of
>> the Gospels make an attempt to show Davidic lineage (which, in itself, is
>> insufficient).
>
> Never mind the gospels, read what I said about the temple records and the
> necessity in the Old Testament/Tanakh that it be demonstrated that the
> Christ is a direct descendant of David. Today it cannot in any way be
> done.
FROM DAS: Like I said, descent from King David is insufficient.
>
>> Certainly for many Christians Jesus is presaged in places like the Book
>> of Isaiah, but this really is only a Christian interpretation. Of course
>> there are Jews for Jesus and other organisations such as the CJF you
>> cite, but they are at the extreme fringes and small in number. They are
>> not a sign that Jews in general are about to think that Jesus is their
>> messiah.
>
> Of course. What I'm saying is do a detailed study of the arguments and see
> why many Jews have been convinced that Jesus was the Messiah and are
> willing
> to be ostracized by their own people for their beliefs.
FROM DAS: A detailed study of the arguments proves that Jesus is NOT the
messiah. This and a number of your other arguments fail to take into
account that the Christian view of the Hebrew scriptures is just that, and
of little consequence to Jews, or at least to the vast majority of Jews. I
say again, the number of Jews who think that Jesus is THE messiah from a
Jewish perspective is small.
[...]
>
>> The Israelites were indeed chosen for a mission as it was only they who
>> accepted God's commandments (at Sinai). Other nations were asked but
>> declined.
>> Of course this is from a biblical perspective only; independent
>> corroboration of the events is another matter.
>
> What Biblical perspective? You have to understand that the typical
> Christian
> is much better versed in the Old Testament/Tanakh than a typical religous
> Jew.
FROM DAS: That's an extraordinary claim, that "typical" Christians know the
Pentateuch etc better than "typical religious" Jews. I don't know what kind
of people you mean, but a very observant Jew is likely not only to know the
Five Books off by heart and know its meaning, he will also probably know
many of the commentaries thereon. I hardly think that any Christian other
than a very learned theologian would know all this.
What you say appears nowhere in the Bible. I explained what is meant by
> the Jews being the "chosen" people in my longer post. It makes much more
> sense than this racist view that Jews have, that the infinite supreme
> being
> condescended to Jews alone, no? What is meant by the Jews being a light to
> the world?
FROM DAS: I could not see find your reference (in a longer post). Copy the
sentences here if you like.
>
[...]
>
>> The body of Jewish belief and behaviour is encompassed by the Five Books
>> of Moses (the Pentateuch or the Written Law),
>
> Yes, but the entire Tanakh is inspired. Though some religous Jews don't
> believe that of course.
FROM DAS: As above. What do you mean by "inspired"? The traditional Jewish
view is that the Law was divinely written (and spoken, in the case of the
Oral Law).
>
>> the Oral Law (which was also given to Moses to transmit to the Israelites
>> and which was finally written down about eighteen hundred years ago) and
>> the Commentaries (these three in essence being the Talmud) and some other
>> books.
>
> The "Oral Law" and the Commentaries are not inspired, and are prohibitive
> ornamentation to the Law as given to Moses.
>
>> The Pentateuch alone is not enough.
>
> That view is the problem. Why is it not enough?
FROM DAS: The Written Law/Pentateuch is only a part of Judaism, hence
insufficient on its own to understand the whole of the religion.
Why is it a problem?
>
>> This section is the best known because Christians have it as the first
>> book. There are, indeed, some horrible things in it
>
> I assume you mean the genocidal wars. [...]
FROM DAS: I mean those aspects which dictate behaviour. The most famously
misinterpreted one is the "eye for an eye", which actually means
monetary/economic compensation to a value equal to the loss sustained.
(Sounds like modern injury compenation law to me.)
Notice this makes much more sense than the racist
> rabbinical teachings that God will save the Jews only.
FROM DAS: No mainstream rabbi will say that as it would run counter to
Jewish ethics.
>
>
>> but any implied behaviour was always tempered/modified by a whole raft of
>> restrictions in the Oral Law and the Commentaries. Two examples are the
>> general prohibition the death penalty.
>
> Study all of them and see if the Law needs the "Oral Law" and the
> Commentaries. I haven't taken a detailed look into them
[...]
FROM DAS: Exactly. You speak from a position of near-complete ignorance of
Jewish law and practice.
>
[...]
>
>> To me it is curious that the two 'daughters' of Judaism, Christianity and
>> Islam, both claim that their way is the only way to Salvation,
>
> I don't know if you want to call Islam a 'daughters' of Judaism, it was a
> religion founded by a man who adapted local beliefs about the moon god
> Allah
> and amalgamated them with religious stories which he heard from Christian
> and Jewish traders. Christianity however, was formed by Jews and Jews
> alone.
FROM DAS: Islam is a 'daughter' in the sense it is a monotheistic faith.
"There is no god but God" is an excellent summary, though the rest of the
statement "...and Allah is his prophet" is problematical for non-Muslims.
Not that different from the "I am the Way" propagated by Jesus' later
followers.
>
>> an odd and arrogant claim ignoring the happiness with their way of
>> hundreds of millions of Hindus, Buddhists and the like.
>
> This has nothing to do with arrogance. It is to do with absolute truth. If
> it can be demonstrated that Christianity is true and that the only way to
> be
> saved is through Jesus Christ then all other beliefs and religions fall
> away
> like dross and are irrelevant.
FROM DAS: Lots of ifs. Christianity has already been proved to be the
absolute truth...to some (most?) of its followers.
>
> Whereever did you get the idea that the God as revealed by Jewish
> scriptures
> is a relativist?
FROM DAS: Where did I suggest that?
>
>> Judaism is a universalist faith that does not make this claim.
>
> So what is Judaism in a nutshell?
FROM DAS: ""That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That
is the whole Torah; the rest is commentary. "
>
>> In fact, a non-Jew can achieve 'salvation' quicker by simply adhering to
>> the seven Noachide laws, none of which require the belief in the God of
>> Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
>
> If 'salvation' is quicker by "simply adhering to the seven Noachide laws"
> than why even bother for Jews with the Law and the prohibitive "Oral Law"
> and commentaries?
FROM DAS: I don't know what with this prohibitive "Oral Law" business. The
Oral Law is a substantial element of Judaism, your comments notwithstanding.
Only non-Jews have the seven Noachide laws. Jews have to deal with the
whole panoply of law and to be an example of morally and ethically correct
behaviour to the world. Unfortunately they are human, too...
These are, by the way (thanks be to Rabbi Google):
1.. Do not murder.
2.. Do not steal.
3.. Do not worship false gods.
4.. Do not be sexually immoral.
5.. Do not eat the limb of an animal before it is killed.
6.. Do not curse God.
7.. Set up courts and bring offenders to justice.
They are not in the Pentateuch.
>
> What is salvation and where does it say what you write in the Tanakh?
FROM DAS: "Salvation" is mainly a Christian word I thought you would
understand.
BTW, what do you think "Tanakh" includes?
>
[...]
>
> I'm sorry but the above applies to you as well.
FROM DAS: You have little understanding of Judaism from a Jewish
perspective, at least the way you write. Which statement of mine is based
on ignorance?
>
> So yeah, how is that benz of yours? :-)
FROM DAS: Both my MBs are doing great, even if the older one does not get
enough exercise (my wife drives little). Thx for asking... And I am
travelling a lot at the moment (using products of Airbus Industrie and The
Boeing Company) that the newer one doesn't get many outings either. And
parking at the airport for more than 2/3 days is rather expensive.
>
> cp
>
>
The Spanish Inquisition
Adam Helberg
"J Young" <youngo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1120277265.2...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> One thing that has always baffled me is why do Jews drive BMW's, or
> Mercedes Benz, or Volkswagen? It would seem to me that a priority would
> be placed on boycotting companies that employed Jewish slave labor in
> WWII. Thousands suffered and died at these plants, yet well-to-do Jews
> think nothing of driving these automobiles in their quest to achieve a
> social status. It appears the Holocaust has lost it's place in the
> pecking order on what is considered important to the Jewish community.
The people who make German cars are innocent of the Holocaust so there is no reason
to boycott them. A better case can be made for avoiding Ford cars as the Ford
Foundation is still antisemitic, and while the German companies were simply profiting
during the war, Henry Ford was a well known known antisemite who actively wrote anti
Jewish lies.
Adam