Jews in Ukraine.
Michaelo
Let me tell you about jews in Ukraine.
Ukraine for ancient jews lied out of their "world".
However jews used word "skiff" as romes used "barbar" ("barbarian").
Skiffs was one of folk which lived on territory of Ukraine before
start of Slavic civilization.
So, I guess, since romes ruin Israel,
a lot of jews went in all sides of the world.
Some of them get Ukraine.
Since what time they live here I don't know.
When first ukrainian empire was created (not by ukrainian leader)
here was a lot of different people,
and particularly a lot of ancestors of Swedes, Dens, Norwegian...
Probably here was also jews.
After christianity came Ukraine the persecution of all other religion
was started. Especially government persecuted ukrainian pagans.
But any way it was one of most humanous and cultural civilization,
with element of Greece fashion democracy.
Later Ukraine got under mongolo-tatarian invasion.
And after it, in 13 century, Ukraine was formed some unique kind of
state it had elements of feudalism and democracy.
A lot of people came Ukraine from several sides of the world.
Most of them was mixed with Ukrainians.
Even today, you may find in faces of Ukrainians trace of several
nations.
For instance I knew one ukrainian girl with dark skin, with a sicilian
face,
and big ah ... brea-e-e-e-sts.
I think exactly in this period jews came Ukraine,
it was not the best place in the world.
But I think they felt themselves here
more surely than in other lands.
They was farming, and doing crafts.
Also some of them lend money and sold alcohol.
In mentality of Ukrainian printed the last two of their professions.
But ukrainian anti-Semitism was rose together with ukrainian
nationalism,
which turned into anti- Polish insurgence managed by Bohdan Chmelnytski
(For the moment Poland already controlled Ukraine.)
Polish was horrible people with dumb honor.
But I hate Chmelnytski. He planed to introduce monarchy in Ukraine,
ruin democratic traditions, persecuted outlanders (and jews),
and finally he jointed Ukraine to Russia.
But for Ukrainians he was a hero (!).
By the way Poles also was anti-Semites.
But jews remained.
Russia also did not respect jews so much. Finally they got under
serious sanctions.
With time they forgot their languages (hebrey and idisch),
they lived in small towns and villages.
But later started their renaissance. In Ukraine lived and worked
founder of the new stream of jewish religion.
A lot of jews came here each year to his town Uman.
Ones one of TV-channel (created and ruled by jews (!))
showed how they (jews who follow this stream) love Ukrainians.
They hate us! :)
Most of jews hate Ukrainians, we also pay them with same.
But! This is especial kind of hate.
I'd say it's very tolerant.
And if some politicians and public figures want to play on it,
I guess we must stop it !!! And not just only stop (!).
Also in Ukraine worked on of jewish writers Shalom Alechem.
He described national character of jews, in humorous stories.
He was blamed in anti-Semitism, but today he is a symbol of Ukrainian
jews.
Well. There's an anecdote of unknown author. Some people say they famous
ukrainian
writer Ivan Franko composed it.
====begin====
It was in western Ukraine in places where was shell.
To ukrainian Ivan came pure naked jew and say - "dig a hole to the oil".
Ivan digs. When he reached oil jew say - "ladle the shell".
He ladled. Jew take a pail and went to the marked he sold it.
>From it he paid Ivan for job.
Next time he sold two ladles of shell. And so on.
====end====
It's written in typically Ukrainian style. What context ot this story?
Jews exploit Ukrainians. But why? Because Ukrainians are unable to
manage their business. It teach - "if you don't want to work for jew,
be such smart as a jew, if you are so stupid it's your problem".
Is it an anti-Semitism ?
I think that it's only way to not allow jews control ourselves.
We must to be such as jews, to be smart, to be cultural, to be educated.
We must to be able to renaissance.
If jew create an enterprise, ukrainian must create an enterprise.
If jews create a cultural center, we must create an art gallery or a
publishery.
If jews make a discovery, we must make a discovery.
All the Europe made such.
That's all.
Nice to stay.
--Michaelo.
P.S. But any way I think Israel must beg a pardon of Mordechai,
and all Israelian DISSIDENTS. Regulate a usage of water with neighbors,
and allow Palestinians live as they want on their ground (sand :)
(I do not think that all of them are such x-treemists).
Captain!
"Michaelo" <mich...@ukr.net> wrote in message
news:408991D5...@ukr.net...
> Have a good health.
>
thank you. are you jewish michaelo?
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
I think that he is canine 8-)
Is it a full moon now?
Or perhaps someone like Brookskie has signed up
or found a way to post at that ukr.net site.
The posting host is IP 193.110.101.174 .
Inger E Johansson
"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urj...@bellsouth.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:Fmoic.75119$UC4....@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
one other posibility we haven't analysed: he might be one of the descendants
to the Khazars.
Inger E
>
Captain!
"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urj...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Fmoic.75119$UC4....@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
i remember a michaelo posting in soc.culture.ukrainian back when i used to
dominate the place on a regular basis. (you know what i'm talking about)
he seemed like a nice guy. i am not sure if he is the same michaelo or not
because he never used to talk about jews. unfortunately if you expose a guy
to usenet for long enough, the topic of jewishness always eventually comes
up. i wonder why this is....?
jj
why are you jealous?
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
PomaH
like you, but don't worry another Khmalnytsky will come soon.
Michaelo
>
> "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" ?urj...@bellsouth.net? skrev i meddelandet
> news:Fmoic.75119$UC4....@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
> ? Captain! wrote:
> ?
> ? ? "Michaelo" ?mich...@ukr.net? wrote in message
> ? ? news:408991D5...@ukr.net...
> ? ?
> ? ??Have a good health.
> ? ??
> ? ?
> ? ? thank you. are you jewish michaelo?
> ? ?
> ? I think that he is canine 8-)
> ? Is it a full moon now?
> ?
> ? Or perhaps someone like Brookskie has signed up
> ? or found a way to post at that ukr.net site.
> ? The posting host is IP 193.110.101.174 .
>
> one other posibility we haven't analysed: he might be one of the descendants
> to the Khazars.
>
Hi Inger, I didn't heard from you a lot.
Where did you found out about history of Ukraine.
Khazars was destroyed completely. :(
And jews who lived amond of them also gone.
> Inger E
> ?
Michaelo
> ?
> ??Have a good health.
> ??
> ?
> ?
> I think that he is canine 8-)
> Is it a full moon now?
>
> Or perhaps someone like Brookskie has signed up
> or found a way to post at that ukr.net site.
> The posting host is IP 193.110.101.174 .
I gave my true name is Michaelo Mitroafnov (Mykhaylo Mytrofanov in
standart transliteration).
Michaelo
>
> "Michaelo" ?mich...@ukr.net? wrote in message
> news:408991D5...@ukr.net...
> ? Have a good health.
> ?
>
> thank you. are you jewish michaelo?
No.
I told who I am.
Should I repeat?
Michaelo
>
> "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" ?urj...@bellsouth.net? wrote in message
> news:Fmoic.75119$UC4....@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
> ? Captain! wrote:
> ?
> ? ? "Michaelo" ?mich...@ukr.net? wrote in message
> ? ? news:408991D5...@ukr.net...
> ? ?
> ? ?
> ? ? thank you. are you jewish michaelo?
> ? ?
> ? I think that he is canine 8-)
> ? Is it a full moon now?
> ?
> ? Or perhaps someone like Brookskie has signed up
> ? or found a way to post at that ukr.net site.
> ? The posting host is IP 193.110.101.174 .
> ?
>
> i remember a michaelo posting in soc.culture.ukrainian back when i used to
> dominate the place on a regular basis. (you know what i'm talking about)
> he seemed like a nice guy. i am not sure if he is the same michaelo or not
> because he never used to talk about jews. unfortunately if you expose a guy
> to usenet for long enough, the topic of jewishness always eventually comes
> up. i wonder why this is....?
Well.
Only me sighned as Michaelo .
This combinations of letters I composed according the grammar
which I created such as it might be created by Ukrainians during
centuries
if Ukrinians had no cyrrilic aphabet.
So, Michaelo can not be happend in any other paper before me.
And it's not my first message about jews.
Why I write of jews.
Because all papers TV-programs tell about events in Israel so much.
In Ethiopia was killed much in few times much people as in Israel,
we had only little info about it in mass media.
Now I tiled with growing of antisemitism, it made me to write.
Bye.
Michaelo
>
> Captain! wrote:
> ? news:Fmoic.75119$UC4....@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
> ?
> ??Captain! wrote:
> ??
> ???"Michaelo" ?mich...@ukr.net? wrote in message
> ???news:408991D5...@ukr.net...
> ???
> ????Have a good health.
> ????
> ???
> ???thank you. are you jewish michaelo?
> ???
> ??
> ??I think that he is canine 8-)
> ??Is it a full moon now?
> ??
> ??Or perhaps someone like Brookskie has signed up
> ??or found a way to post at that ukr.net site.
> ??The posting host is IP 193.110.101.174 .
> ??
> ?
> ? i remember a michaelo posting in soc.culture.ukrainian back when i used to
> ? dominate the place on a regular basis. (you know what i'm talking about)
> ? he seemed like a nice guy. i am not sure if he is the same michaelo or not
> ? because he never used to talk about jews. unfortunately if you expose a guy
> ? to usenet for long enough, the topic of jewishness always eventually comes
> ? up. i wonder why this is....?
> ?
> ?
> Not necessarily, if you stay in the sane (mentally sane) newsgroups.
Is jewishness a prohibited subject ?
Michaelo
>
> Captain! wrote:
>
> ?
> ? "Michaelo" ?mich...@ukr.net? wrote in message
> ? news:408991D5...@ukr.net...
> ? ? Have a good health.
> ? ?
> ?
> ? thank you. are you jewish michaelo?
>
> why are you jealous?
:))))
Michaelo
>
> I truly regret that Bohdan Khmelnytsky failed to cleanup his land from dirt
> like you, but don't worry another Khmalnytsky will come soon.
And who?
Eushchenko ?
Korczynski ?
Timoshenko ?
Virenko ?
And will he / she hold a position of hetman (or presiden) for his family
?
--Michaelo
P.S. I know you don't like me.
But I really want to hear your opinions regarding my replay on your
article about technology.
It's very imporatant to me.
Michaelo
and complained in all bad jewish ???
Why nobody understand me ?
Is it because I do not follow stereotypes, or did I something wrong ?
Inger E Johansson
a contact of mine who does close research re. the Khazar and I discussed it
due to old discussions in a group I belong to. Anyhow I have had a contact
in your country who works with the archaeologic side of the question.
I am not sure that they were totally 'destroyed', but that's due to more
Scandinavian, Byzantic and Arabic sources's hints then to pure knowledge.
I studied the Khazars when I wrote my essays and later when I made my
research re. the Goths.
Inger E
"Michaelo" <mich...@ukr.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:408AAD0C...@ukr.net...
YOELK
For instance, you had mentioned Sholom Aleichem as a Jewsh author who
described
the life of Jews in Ukraine but had you actually read some of his
stories?
It seens that not, since if you read it you will find out that Jews in
Ukraine
lived in poverty and under very bad conditions. Most of them lived
in poor vilages and lived in small and poor farms. Have you seen the
movie Fiddler on The Roof? So now tell us that the Jews exploited the
Ukrainians while the Jews were on par with the poorest ukrainians.
Its just another anti-semitic myth.
Another more modern anti-semitic myth is A TV that is "ruled" by
Jews....
Parhaps one of the owners was Jewish but why are you so offended by
that?
Were all workers there jews? Was the news editor a jew?
Did they speak there Iddish or Hebrew?
You are just trying to justify Ukrainian hate for the Jews
be talking about hate of the Jews to the Ukrainians. But do you think
it is comparable? Do you expect Jews to love a nation who's national
hero
killed thousands and thousands of Jews? Did Ukrainians suffered
anything
comparable from Jews that came up organized to kill Ukrainians?
No, don't tell me about the Communist era. Jews didn't run the
communist
party - that is yet another antisemitic myth.
You will tell us anecdote about Jews and I'll tell you a true story.
My Grandfather Shalom, Grandmother Rachel, aunt Perla, aunt Sara,
aunt Basia,
Uncle Moshe were killed by ukrainians during WWII in a horrible way,
my mother survived just because she wasn't there. Many other extended
family members were murdered as well. Here is for the tolerant hate
you are talking
about.
I will quote a passage from the bible (deuteronomy 25:17-20)
"Remember what the Amalekites did to you on your way from Egypt, how
they met you along the way and cut off all your stragglers in the rear
of the march when you were exhausted and tired; they were unafraid of
God. So when the Lord your God gives you relief from all the enemies
who surround you in the land he is giving you as an inheritance, you
must wipe the memory of the Amalekites from under heaven—do not
forget!"
Although I am not a believer I think this passage is apropriate here.
I will leave you with your fears from the Jews, its a miserable life
to live by fear , but hey, it is your life, your problem.
Have a nice day
-----
YOELK
Michaelo <mich...@ukr.net> wrote in message news:<408991D5...@ukr.net>...
Captain!
"jj" <j...@allaroundtheworld.com> wrote in message
news:108klur...@news.supernews.com...
i could never be jealous of anyone who was religious, no offense. that said,
i don't have any issues with jews. generally speaking, i like them.
Captain!
if you like. actually yes please, could you? i missed it the first time.
Captain!
"YOELK" <jk...@shani.net> wrote in message
news:28891102.04042...@posting.google.com...
<snip>
> Its just another anti-semitic myth.
> Another more modern anti-semitic myth is A TV that is "ruled" by
> Jews....
> Parhaps one of the owners was Jewish but why are you so offended by
> that?
> Were all workers there jews? Was the news editor a jew?
> Did they speak there Iddish or Hebrew?
i always laugh at that one. even if tv was run by jews, who really cares?
they would own it because they bought it and if they showed shitty programs,
no one would watch and they would have to sell.
Kevin Brook
> Khazars was destroyed completely. :(
> And jews who lived amond of them also gone.
Hi Michaelo,
No, not entirely gone. We have evidence now about some Khazars who
stayed Jewish after the conquest of Khazaria in the 960s:
1. The Byzantine scribe Constantine Akropolites (1250-1324) copied two
11th-century tales about a Jewish Khazar woman in Pera, near
Constantinople, who lived with her Jewish husband in the Rabbinical
Jewish district near the leprosarium founded by Saint Zotikos.
(SOURCE: "The Legend of Saint Zotikos According to Constantine
Akropolites," ed. Timothy S. Miller, Analecta Bollandiana vol. 112
(1994), pages 339-376.)
2. Rabbi Abraham ibn Daud of Toledo wrote in "Sefer ha-Qabbalah"
(1161) that he and his colleagues had seen Khazar students studying
Judaism in Toledo, Spain who told them that "the remnant of them is of
the rabbinical belief."
(SOURCE: "The Book of Tradition by Abraham ibn Daud," ed. Gerson D.
Cohen, Jewish Publication Society of America, 1967.)
About migrations of Jews from Central Europe into Poland and Ukraine
in the Middle Ages, you can read more details in my articles:
Kevin Alan Brook, "The Origins of East European Jews," in Russian
History/Histoire Russe, vol. 30, no. 1-2 (Spring-Summer 2003), pages
1-22.
Kevin Alan Brook, "From the East, West, and South: Documenting the
Foundation of Jewish Communities in Eastern Europe," in Roots-Key,
Newsletter of the Jewish Genealogical Society of Los Angeles, vol. 24,
no. 1 (Spring 2004), pages 4-6.
Best wishes,
Kevin Brook
Susan Cohen
"Captain!" <Spammer...@now.net> wrote in message
news:K8sic.6241$NG2.5409@edtnps84...
>
> unfortunately if you expose a guy
> to usenet for long enough, the topic of jewishness always eventually comes
> up. i wonder why this is....?
Because bigots never hate just one group.
No matter where a bigot starts, he will end up sooner or later on Jews.
Susan
Susan Cohen
"Kevin Brook" <kuz...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:eb613152.04042...@posting.google.com...
>
> Kevin Alan Brook, "The Origins of East European Jews," in Russian
> History/Histoire Russe, vol. 30, no. 1-2 (Spring-Summer 2003), pages
> 1-22.
If the theory of this book is that all or most European Jews are the
descendents of the Khazars, I would defintiely suggest Michealo get another
source.
Susan
Markku Grönroos
s.c.nordic. Keep this crap in soc.culture.bethlehem where it belongs.
"Kevin Brook" <kuz...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:eb613152.04042...@posting.google.com...
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj wrote:
>
>>Captain! wrote:
>>? "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" ?urj...@bellsouth.net? wrote in message
>>? news:Fmoic.75119$UC4....@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>>?
>>??Captain! wrote:
>>??
>>???"Michaelo" ?mich...@ukr.net? wrote in message
>>???news:408991D5...@ukr.net...
>>???
>>????Have a good health.
>>???thank you. are you jewish michaelo?
>>??I think that he is canine 8-)
>>??Is it a full moon now?
>>??
>>??Or perhaps someone like Brookskie has signed up
>>??or found a way to post at that ukr.net site.
>>??The posting host is IP 193.110.101.174 .
>>? i remember a michaelo posting in soc.culture.ukrainian back when i used to
>>? dominate the place on a regular basis. (you know what i'm talking about)
>>? he seemed like a nice guy. i am not sure if he is the same michaelo or not
>>? because he never used to talk about jews. unfortunately if you expose a guy
>>? to usenet for long enough, the topic of jewishness always eventually comes
>>? up. i wonder why this is....?
>>?
>
> Is jewishness a prohibited subject ?
>
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Yes. Lots of things.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Even starting out from soc.culture.jewish ?
Michaelo
Thank you.
Well.
Unfortunately I have no time for learning all those paper.
My friend, the big amateur of history, told - when jews started to
search
lost 12th tribe of Israel (probably during jewish renaissance),
all what they was able to found that those people jointed with chasars.
However some people say that a lot of Ukrainian jews are not jews
indeed,
but chasars. (That is what meant Inger.)
Yes.
I gave not accurate information.
I didn't know that Inger is so wise in this question. :)))
So, I have a question.
When jews came Ukraine, and when was started jewish persecution
in Ukraine ?
I mean real persecution, not just antagonism
as between italian from north and south, for example.
Plea-e-e-e-ese tell. :) I know you can. :)
I'd read but I have no time.
And have no access to literature.
I do not need detailed ansver just give a dates.
Any way, thank you.
Bye.
--Michaelo
Kevin Brook wrote:
>
> Michaelo ?mich...@ukr.net? wrote in message news:?408AAD0C...@ukr.net?...
> ? Khazars was destroyed completely. :(
> ? And jews who lived amond of them also gone.
Michaelo
>
> "Kevin Brook" ?kuz...@lycos.com? wrote in message
> news:eb613152.04042...@posting.google.com...
> ?
> ? Kevin Alan Brook, "The Origins of East European Jews," in Russian
> ? History/Histoire Russe, vol. 30, no. 1-2 (Spring-Summer 2003), pages
> ? 1-22.
>
> If the theory of this book is that all or most European Jews are the
> descendents of the Khazars, I would defintiely suggest Michealo get another
> source.
>
"another source, ano-other source"
What's difference if I have no access to any of them. :)
And I have no time to read them.
Finally I'm illiterate. :)
I think it is good if modern jews if have 10% of blood of people who
escaped from IVDEA before Romes ruined it.
> Susan
Michaelo
>
> Michaelo wrote:
> ? Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj wrote:
> ?
> ??Captain! wrote:
> ??? "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" ?urj...@bellsouth.net? wrote in message
> ??? news:Fmoic.75119$UC4....@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
> ???
> ????Captain! wrote:
> ????
> ?????"Michaelo" ?mich...@ukr.net? wrote in message
> ?????news:408991D5...@ukr.net...
> ?????
> ??????Have a good health.
> ?????
> ?????thank you. are you jewish michaelo?
> ????
> ????I think that he is canine 8-)
> ????Is it a full moon now?
> ????
> ????Or perhaps someone like Brookskie has signed up
> ????or found a way to post at that ukr.net site.
> ????The posting host is IP 193.110.101.174 .
> ???
> ??? i remember a michaelo posting in soc.culture.ukrainian back when i used to
> ??? dominate the place on a regular basis. (you know what i'm talking about)
> ??? he seemed like a nice guy. i am not sure if he is the same michaelo or not
> ??? because he never used to talk about jews. unfortunately if you expose a guy
> ??? to usenet for long enough, the topic of jewishness always eventually comes
> ??? up. i wonder why this is....?
> ???
> ??Not necessarily, if you stay in the sane (mentally sane) newsgroups.
> ?
> ? Is jewishness a prohibited subject ?
> ?
> If you wish to be accused of anti-semitism.
Yes.
You're right.
I even think to make an experiment.
Write a message with ony sentence: "Jews are exist."
And look at reaction.
Some time ago I though "would be better to ignore all informnation about
Israel and jews".
But I don't know why, but since childhood I love to discuss prohibited
subjects.
Michaelo
> ? Captain! wrote:
> ? ?
> ? ? "Michaelo" ?mich...@ukr.net? wrote in message
> ? ? news:408991D5...@ukr.net...
> ? ? ?
> ? ?
> ? ? thank you. are you jewish michaelo?
> ?
> ? No.
> ? I told who I am.
> ? Should I repeat?
>
> if you like. actually yes please, could you? i missed it the first time.
I'm Ukrinian.
At 25% polish, and as I suspect I may be a bit nordic.
Michaelo
>
> "Captain!" ?Spammer...@now.net? wrote in message
> news:K8sic.6241$NG2.5409@edtnps84...
> ?
> ? unfortunately if you expose a guy
> ? to usenet for long enough, the topic of jewishness always eventually comes
> ? up. i wonder why this is....?
>
> Because bigots never hate just one group.
> No matter where a bigot starts, he will end up sooner or later on Jews.
>
> Susan
Oh But you are, Susan, is example of tolerance, I guess.
Markku Gronroos
"Michaelo" <mich...@ukr.net> wrote in message
news:408BAB1F...@ukr.net...
Michaelo
but I'll try to ansver.
YOELK wrote:
>
> It seems you do not really know the subject on which you are writing.
>
> For instance, you had mentioned Sholom Aleichem as a Jewsh author who
> described
> the life of Jews in Ukraine but had you actually read some of his
> stories?
> It seens that not, since if you read it you will find out that Jews in
> Ukraine
> lived in poverty and under very bad conditions. Most of them lived
> in poor vilages and lived in small and poor farms.
Yes.
Most of jews was very poor.
> Have you seen the
> movie Fiddler on The Roof? So now tell us that the Jews exploited the
> Ukrainians while the Jews were on par with the poorest ukrainians.
> Its just another anti-semitic myth.
> Another more modern anti-semitic myth is A TV that is "ruled" by
> Jews....
> Parhaps one of the owners was Jewish but why are you so offended by
> that?
Under TV-rule by jews I did not ment that
jews create TV, according to their concepts of TV.
It shows movies and News on Ukrinian.
Didn't I tell that exactly one of those channel showed a reportage from
Uman ?
> Were all workers there jews? Was the news editor a jew?
> Did they speak there Iddish or Hebrew?
No. (but some word with translation, in jewish program)
I didn't mean it.
>
> You are just trying to justify Ukrainian hate for the Jews
> be talking about hate of the Jews to the Ukrainians. But do you think
> it is comparable? Do you expect Jews to love a nation who's national
> hero
> killed thousands and thousands of Jews?
I guess it's not a main reason.
> Did Ukrainians suffered
> anything
> comparable from Jews that came up organized to kill Ukrainians?
> No, don't tell me about the Communist era. Jews didn't run the
> communist
> party - that is yet another antisemitic myth.
>
You mean "Communist Party of the Soviet Union"
> You will tell us anecdote about Jews and I'll tell you a true story.
> My Grandfather Shalom, Grandmother Rachel, aunt Perla, aunt Sara,
> aunt Basia,
> Uncle Moshe were killed by ukrainians during WWII in a horrible way,
> my mother survived just because she wasn't there. Many other extended
> family members were murdered as well. Here is for the tolerant hate
> you are talking
> about.
What ukrainians?
Why don't you complain germans or italians?
Now I'll tell you enother story.
My garand father had a big house,
he let the half of it for jewish craftsmen family.
When germans came.
My grand mother understood what's going on and told to the
that jewish woman:
-Bettia, you should escape, coz germans can kill you."
-No, she replayed, germans will send us in Palestine (!).
-If they planed to send you in Palestine, they would not treat you such.
But she did not want to hear.
Finally someday geman soldier came to her son aimed an weapon
and told: "Uda ?" ("Are you jewish ?")
My garnd mother came to him and whiped:
"No, it's my (ukrinian "mey" [m i j] german "mine" - interenation words
-- interepreter) son"
He reasked, she told it again, and bapted him.
Finally soldier was gone.
Jews don't want to hear this story.
Because they also BELIVED FASCISTS!!!
So what could you expect from Ukrainians?
After that case that family escaped to the forest,
about farther their fate my mother knows nothing.
>
> I will quote a passage from the bible (deuteronomy 25:17-20)
> "Remember what the Amalekites did to you on your way from Egypt, how
> they met you along the way and cut off all your stragglers in the rear
> of the march when you were exhausted and tired; they were unafraid of
> God. So when the Lord your God gives you relief from all the enemies
> who surround you in the land he is giving you as an inheritance, you
> must wipe the memory of the Amalekites from under heaven≈do not
> forget!"
>
> Although I am not a believer I think this passage is apropriate here.
>
> I will leave you with your fears from the Jews, its a miserable life
> to live by fear , but hey, it is your life, your problem.
>
If so, why did you replay me.
I think you also feeded with all those staff about antisemitism.
And I think you also lives in fear.
> Have a nice day
> -----
> YOELK
>
> Michaelo ?mich...@ukr.net? wrote in message news:?408991D5...@ukr.net?...
> ? Have a good health.
> ?
> ? Let me tell you about jews in Ukraine.
> ?
> ? Ukraine for ancient jews lied out of their "world".
> ? However jews used word "skiff" as romes used "barbar" ("barbarian").
> ? Skiffs was one of folk which lived on territory of Ukraine before
> ? start of Slavic civilization.
> ?
> ? So, I guess, since romes ruin Israel,
> ? a lot of jews went in all sides of the world.
> ? Some of them get Ukraine.
> ? Since what time they live here I don't know.
> ? When first ukrainian empire was created (not by ukrainian leader)
> ? here was a lot of different people,
> ? and particularly a lot of ancestors of Swedes, Dens, Norwegian...
> ? Probably here was also jews.
> ? After christianity came Ukraine the persecution of all other religion
> ? was started. Especially government persecuted ukrainian pagans.
> ? But any way it was one of most humanous and cultural civilization,
> ? with element of Greece fashion democracy.
> ? Later Ukraine got under mongolo-tatarian invasion.
> ? And after it, in 13 century, Ukraine was formed some unique kind of
> ? state it had elements of feudalism and democracy.
> ? A lot of people came Ukraine from several sides of the world.
> ? Most of them was mixed with Ukrainians.
> ? Even today, you may find in faces of Ukrainians trace of several
> ? nations.
> ? For instance I knew one ukrainian girl with dark skin, with a sicilian
> ? face,
> ? and big ah ... brea-e-e-e-sts.
> ?
> ? I think exactly in this period jews came Ukraine,
> ? it was not the best place in the world.
> ? But I think they felt themselves here
> ? more surely than in other lands.
> ?
> ? They was farming, and doing crafts.
> ? Also some of them lend money and sold alcohol.
> ? In mentality of Ukrainian printed the last two of their professions.
> ? But ukrainian anti-Semitism was rose together with ukrainian
> ? nationalism,
> ? which turned into anti- Polish insurgence managed by Bohdan Chmelnytski
> ? (For the moment Poland already controlled Ukraine.)
> ? Polish was horrible people with dumb honor.
> ? But I hate Chmelnytski. He planed to introduce monarchy in Ukraine,
> ? ruin democratic traditions, persecuted outlanders (and jews),
> ? and finally he jointed Ukraine to Russia.
> ? But for Ukrainians he was a hero (!).
> ? By the way Poles also was anti-Semites.
> ?
> ? But jews remained.
> ? Russia also did not respect jews so much. Finally they got under
> ? serious sanctions.
> ? With time they forgot their languages (hebrey and idisch),
> ? they lived in small towns and villages.
> ? But later started their renaissance. In Ukraine lived and worked
> ? founder of the new stream of jewish religion.
> ? A lot of jews came here each year to his town Uman.
> ? Ones one of TV-channel (created and ruled by jews (!))
> ? showed how they (jews who follow this stream) love Ukrainians.
> ? They hate us! :)
> ? Most of jews hate Ukrainians, we also pay them with same.
> ? But! This is especial kind of hate.
> ? I'd say it's very tolerant.
> ? And if some politicians and public figures want to play on it,
> ? I guess we must stop it !!! And not just only stop (!).
> ? Also in Ukraine worked on of jewish writers Shalom Alechem.
> ? He described national character of jews, in humorous stories.
> ? He was blamed in anti-Semitism, but today he is a symbol of Ukrainian
> ? jews.
> ?
> ? Well. There's an anecdote of unknown author. Some people say they famous
> ? ukrainian
> ? writer Ivan Franko composed it.
> ? ====begin====
> ? It was in western Ukraine in places where was shell.
> ? To ukrainian Ivan came pure naked jew and say - "dig a hole to the oil".
> ? Ivan digs. When he reached oil jew say - "ladle the shell".
> ? He ladled. Jew take a pail and went to the marked he sold it.
> ? ?From it he paid Ivan for job.
> ? Next time he sold two ladles of shell. And so on.
> ? ====end====
> ? It's written in typically Ukrainian style. What context ot this story?
> ? Jews exploit Ukrainians. But why? Because Ukrainians are unable to
> ? manage their business. It teach - "if you don't want to work for jew,
> ? be such smart as a jew, if you are so stupid it's your problem".
> ? Is it an anti-Semitism ?
> ?
> ? I think that it's only way to not allow jews control ourselves.
> ? We must to be such as jews, to be smart, to be cultural, to be educated.
> ? We must to be able to renaissance.
> ? If jew create an enterprise, ukrainian must create an enterprise.
> ? If jews create a cultural center, we must create an art gallery or a
> ? publishery.
> ? If jews make a discovery, we must make a discovery.
> ? All the Europe made such.
> ?
> ? That's all.
> ?
> ? Nice to stay.
> ?
> ? --Michaelo.
> ?
> ? P.S. But any way I think Israel must beg a pardon of Mordechai,
> ? and all Israelian DISSIDENTS. Regulate a usage of water with neighbors,
> ? and allow Palestinians live as they want on their ground (sand :)
> ? (I do not think that all of them are such x-treemists).
Michaelo
but I'll try to ansver.
YOELK wrote:
>
> It seems you do not really know the subject on which you are writing.
>
> For instance, you had mentioned Sholom Aleichem as a Jewsh author who
> described
> the life of Jews in Ukraine but had you actually read some of his
> stories?
> It seens that not, since if you read it you will find out that Jews in
> Ukraine
> lived in poverty and under very bad conditions. Most of them lived
> in poor vilages and lived in small and poor farms.
Yes.
Most of jews was very poor.
> Have you seen the
> movie Fiddler on The Roof? So now tell us that the Jews exploited the
> Ukrainians while the Jews were on par with the poorest ukrainians.
> Its just another anti-semitic myth.
> Another more modern anti-semitic myth is A TV that is "ruled" by
> Jews....
> Parhaps one of the owners was Jewish but why are you so offended by
> that?
Under TV-rule by jews I did not ment that
jews create TV, according to their concepts of TV.
It shows movies and News on Ukrinian.
Didn't I tell that exactly one of those channel showed a reportage from
Uman ?
> Were all workers there jews? Was the news editor a jew?
> Did they speak there Iddish or Hebrew?
No. (but some word with translation, in jewish program)
I didn't mean it.
>
> You are just trying to justify Ukrainian hate for the Jews
> be talking about hate of the Jews to the Ukrainians. But do you think
> it is comparable? Do you expect Jews to love a nation who's national
> hero
> killed thousands and thousands of Jews?
I guess it's not a main reason.
> Did Ukrainians suffered
> anything
> comparable from Jews that came up organized to kill Ukrainians?
> No, don't tell me about the Communist era. Jews didn't run the
> communist
> party - that is yet another antisemitic myth.
>
You mean "Communist Party of the Soviet Union"
> You will tell us anecdote about Jews and I'll tell you a true story.
> My Grandfather Shalom, Grandmother Rachel, aunt Perla, aunt Sara,
> aunt Basia,
> Uncle Moshe were killed by ukrainians during WWII in a horrible way,
> my mother survived just because she wasn't there. Many other extended
> family members were murdered as well. Here is for the tolerant hate
> you are talking
> about.
What ukrainians?
Why don't you complain germans or italians?
Now I'll tell you enother story.
My garand father had a big house,
he let the half of it for jewish craftsmen family.
When germans came.
My grand mother understood what's going on and told to the
that jewish woman:
-Bettia, you should escape, coz germans can kill you."
-No, she replayed, germans will send us in Palestine (!).
-If they planed to send you in Palestine, they would not treat you such.
But she did not want to hear.
Finally someday geman soldier came to her son aimed an weapon
and told: "Uda ?" ("Are you jewish ?")
My garnd mother came to him and whiped:
"No, it's my (ukrinian "mey" [m i j] german "mine" - interenation words
-- interepreter) son"
He reasked, she told it again, and bapted him.
Finally soldier was gone.
Jews don't want to hear this story.
Because they also BELIVED FASCISTS!!!
So what could you expect from Ukrainians?
After that case that family escaped to the forest,
about farther their fate my mother knows nothing.
>
> I will quote a passage from the bible (deuteronomy 25:17-20)
> "Remember what the Amalekites did to you on your way from Egypt, how
> they met you along the way and cut off all your stragglers in the rear
> of the march when you were exhausted and tired; they were unafraid of
> God. So when the Lord your God gives you relief from all the enemies
> who surround you in the land he is giving you as an inheritance, you
> must wipe the memory of the Amalekites from under heaven≈do not
> forget!"
>
> Although I am not a believer I think this passage is apropriate here.
>
> I will leave you with your fears from the Jews, its a miserable life
> to live by fear , but hey, it is your life, your problem.
>
If so, why did you replay me.
I think you also feeded with all those staff about antisemitism.
And I think you also lives in fear.
> Have a nice day
> -----
> YOELK
>
> ? Most of jews hate Ukrainians, we also pay them with same.
> ? But! This is especial kind of hate.
> ? I'd say it's very tolerant.
> ? And if some politicians and public figures want to play on it,
> ? I guess we must stop it !!! And not just only stop (!).
> ? Also in Ukraine worked on of jewish writers Shalom Alechem.
> ? He described national character of jews, in humorous stories.
> ? He was blamed in anti-Semitism, but today he is a symbol of Ukrainian
> ? jews.
> ?
> ? Well. There's an anecdote of unknown author. Some people say they famous
> ? ukrainian
> ? writer Ivan Franko composed it.
> ? ====begin====
> ? It was in western Ukraine in places where was shell.
> ? To ukrainian Ivan came pure naked jew and say - "dig a hole to the oil".
> ? Ivan digs. When he reached oil jew say - "ladle the shell".
> ? He ladled. Jew take a pail and went to the marked he sold it.
> ? ?From it he paid Ivan for job.
> ? Next time he sold two ladles of shell. And so on.
> ? ====end====
> ? It's written in typically Ukrainian style. What context ot this story?
> ? Jews exploit Ukrainians. But why? Because Ukrainians are unable to
> ? manage their business. It teach - "if you don't want to work for jew,
> ? be such smart as a jew, if you are so stupid it's your problem".
> ? Is it an anti-Semitism ?
> ?
> ? I think that it's only way to not allow jews control ourselves.
> ? We must to be such as jews, to be smart, to be cultural, to be educated.
> ? We must to be able to renaissance.
> ? If jew create an enterprise, ukrainian must create an enterprise.
> ? If jews create a cultural center, we must create an art gallery or a
> ? publishery.
> ? If jews make a discovery, we must make a discovery.
> ? All the Europe made such.
> ?
> ? That's all.
> ?
> ? Nice to stay.
> ?
> ? --Michaelo.
> ?
> ? P.S. But any way I think Israel must beg a pardon of Mordechai,
> ? and all Israelian DISSIDENTS. Regulate a usage of water with neighbors,
> ? and allow Palestinians live as they want on their ground (sand :)
> ? (I do not think that all of them are such x-treemists).
Michaelo
>
> "YOELK" ?jk...@shani.net? wrote in message
> news:28891102.04042...@posting.google.com...
> ?snip?
>
> ? Its just another anti-semitic myth.
> ? Another more modern anti-semitic myth is A TV that is "ruled" by
> ? Jews....
> ? Parhaps one of the owners was Jewish but why are you so offended by
> ? that?
> ? Were all workers there jews? Was the news editor a jew?
> ? Did they speak there Iddish or Hebrew?
>
> i always laugh at that one. even if tv was run by jews, who really cares?
> they would own it because they bought it and if they showed shitty programs,
> no one would watch and they would have to sell.
Under "TV runned by jews" I meant good TV, not russian - style !!!
1+1 was one of best TV channels until Ukrainians power did not
"processed" them. :(
YOELK
> I don't know why do you DISTORT a meaning of my article,
> but I'll try to ansver.
>
Am I distorting your post? I wonder.
What about Uman? The Jew that come Uman come there as pilgrims
to the grave of Rabi Nachman of Braslaw. Most of them are followers
of the dead Rabbi. How exactly do they harm the Ukrainians?
BTW, I personally find that such pilgrimage is tasteless, but I
won't force my view on those followers.
> > Were all workers there jews? Was the news editor a jew?
> > Did they speak there Iddish or Hebrew?
>
> No. (but some word with translation, in jewish program)
> I didn't mean it.
>
> >
> > You are just trying to justify Ukrainian hate for the Jews
> > be talking about hate of the Jews to the Ukrainians. But do you think
> > it is comparable? Do you expect Jews to love a nation who's national
> > hero
> > killed thousands and thousands of Jews?
>
> I guess it's not a main reason.
No? How do you know that? There are 3 reasons connected together
that make Jews dislike the Ukrainians, the first is Chmelnytski,
the second is WWII and what happenned in Ukraine during the war,
and the third is Ukrainian Antisemitism.
>
> > Did Ukrainians suffered
> > anything
> > comparable from Jews that came up organized to kill Ukrainians?
> > No, don't tell me about the Communist era. Jews didn't run the
> > communist
> > party - that is yet another antisemitic myth.
> >
>
> You mean "Communist Party of the Soviet Union"
>
What else could I mean?
There is a Garden in Jerusalem where trees are planted in
memory of those Gentiles (non-Jews) who risked their lives to save
Jews during the holocaust, they are called 'The Among the Nations'.
Some succeeded and some failed, some lived after that and some were
executed for their deeds. In Yad-Vashem, the memorial institute there
are listed aproximately 20,000 people, of them there are close to
2000 Ukrainians. Those listed by Yad-Vashem can live in Israel,
and get a pension from the state of Israel.
Why do you think Jews do not want to hear the story?
Regarding Germans, I do not think many Jews have warm feeling towards
them,
although the Germans had taken the responsibility for their deeds
and expressed a remorse over the holocaust.
Italians have a different story, though. It is told
that Musolini didn't send Jews to die from the areas under his
control,
although he had established anti-Jewish laws. I don't think he was a
Jew lover
but he didn't agree to the German policy of anihilation of the Jewish
population, and protected the Jews under his control. Italians In
general
didn't cooperate with Germans on the Jewish issue.
Only after Musoliny was overthrown and reestablished as a puppet
ruler of nothern Italy, Jews from Italy were sent to their death,
with Germans running the operation.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> After that case that family escaped to the forest,
> about farther their fate my mother knows nothing.
>
>
>
> >
> > I will quote a passage from the bible (deuteronomy 25:17-20)
> > "Remember what the Amalekites did to you on your way from Egypt, how
> > they met you along the way and cut off all your stragglers in the rear
> > of the march when you were exhausted and tired; they were unafraid of
> > God. So when the Lord your God gives you relief from all the enemies
> > who surround you in the land he is giving you as an inheritance, you
> > must wipe the memory of the Amalekites from under heaven?do not
> > forget!"
> >
> > Although I am not a believer I think this passage is apropriate here.
> >
> > I will leave you with your fears from the Jews, its a miserable life
> > to live by fear , but hey, it is your life, your problem.
> >
>
> If so, why did you replay me.
>
> I think you also feeded with all those staff about antisemitism.
> And I think you also lives in fear.
But tell me that , do you think that Jews fear from antisemitism is
not
justified in the light of the bloody history? Its not a car accident
nor plane crash, nor some kind of natural disaster that killed so
many of my family. History repeat itself, somebody wise said, but we
do
not learn from it nothing.
And do you think that fears from the Jews are justified?
Antisemitism is evident, here on the net. I do not have to go so far
to find it, even in your posts, parhaps unconscious, but it is
still there.
Have a nice day.
-----
YOELK
Michaelo
>
> Michaelo ?mich...@ukr.net? wrote in message news:?408BBD6C...@ukr.net?...
> ? I don't know why do you DISTORT a meaning of my article,
> ? but I'll try to ansver.
> ?
>
> Am I distorting your post? I wonder.
>
> ? ?
> ? ?
> ? ? For instance, you had mentioned Sholom Aleichem as a Jewsh author who
> ? ? described
> ? ? the life of Jews in Ukraine but had you actually read some of his
> ? ? stories?
> ? ? It seens that not, since if you read it you will find out that Jews in
> ? ? Ukraine
> ? ? lived in poverty and under very bad conditions. Most of them lived
> ? ? in poor vilages and lived in small and poor farms.
> ?
> ? Yes.
> ? Most of jews was very poor.
> ?
> ? ? Have you seen the
> ? ? movie Fiddler on The Roof? So now tell us that the Jews exploited the
> ? ? Ukrainians while the Jews were on par with the poorest ukrainians.
> ? ? Its just another anti-semitic myth.
> ? ? Another more modern anti-semitic myth is A TV that is "ruled" by
> ? ? Jews....
> ? ? Parhaps one of the owners was Jewish but why are you so offended by
> ? ? that?
> ?
> ? Under TV-rule by jews I did not ment that
> ? jews create TV, according to their concepts of TV.
> ? It shows movies and News on Ukrinian.
> ?
> ? Didn't I tell that exactly one of those channel showed a reportage from
> ? Uman ?
> ?
>
> What about Uman? The Jew that come Uman come there as pilgrims
> to the grave of Rabi Nachman of Braslaw. Most of them are followers
> of the dead Rabbi. How exactly do they harm the Ukrainians?
>
TV shows few interviews with Ukrainians who told that:
pilgrims offend them, way out themselves brutally,
and often do not pay for flats which they rent.
Than they showed a jew which told on bad russian "you are (some brutal
word)".
Next year same channel make a reportage about that jews with no any
shades
of irrespect to Ukrainians.
But before last presidents election, Ukrainian radical organization UNSO
came Uman and started some action TV showed entry "beat the jews".
They did not tell "jews persecute palestinians"
or "jews put a scientist in jail",
they told absolutely clear "beat the jews".
But during parliaments elections I ah ... voted for them,
you must understand me, it was a sigh of protest,
because I hate all of candidates and parties (including UNSO).
Any way I knew that they have no chances. :)
They got about 20,000 of votes from about 20,000,000 voted people.
Do you remember "election of Sharon" ?
> BTW, I personally find that such pilgrimage is tasteless, but I
> won't force my view on those followers.
I such understand it's mix of judaism and oriental (far eastern)
philosophy.
>
> ? ? Were all workers there jews? Was the news editor a jew?
> ? ? Did they speak there Iddish or Hebrew?
> ?
> ? No. (but some word with translation, in jewish program)
> ? I didn't mean it.
> ?
> ? ?
> ? ? You are just trying to justify Ukrainian hate for the Jews
> ? ? be talking about hate of the Jews to the Ukrainians. But do you think
> ? ? it is comparable? Do you expect Jews to love a nation who's national
> ? ? hero
> ? ? killed thousands and thousands of Jews?
> ?
> ? I guess it's not a main reason.
>
> No? How do you know that?
I guess they forgot it.
They hate us because we are stupid.
> There are 3 reasons connected together
> that make Jews dislike the Ukrainians, the first is Chmelnytski,
> the second is WWII and what happenned in Ukraine during the war,
> and the third is Ukrainian Antisemitism.
Well I also hate Chmelnytski.
I don't know did you read it, but I'll repeat.
He broke remains of cosack's democracy, he canceled elections of
hetmans, usurped this position, extended his rights,
actually turned it into monarchy.
He broke national tolerance of Ukrainians (not only to jews and poles).
And finally he jointed Ukraine to Russia.
But Petlura, and BandИra was not anti-Semites.
Waffen SS [G|H]alit[z|sch]ina did not captured jews as some people say.
Some Ukrainians gave away jews.
What could you expect from them ?
They also was persecuted first by Russians then by Germans.
Even jews betrayed Moses.
Russian widely used such technology,
they selected a people with faces seamed Ukrainians
tough them to speak Ukrainian with all especiality,
wore in Uniform of first army of Petlura, then UPA.
Then sent to make several military crimes,
to tune public mind.
Also they widely used provocateurs.
And last one Ukrainian anti-Semitism.
Yes, it grows last time.
But why ?
I quoted an article.
It's because of Russia.
>
> ?
> ? ? Did Ukrainians suffered
> ? ? anything
> ? ? comparable from Jews that came up organized to kill Ukrainians?
> ? ? No, don't tell me about the Communist era. Jews didn't run the
> ? ? communist
> ? ? party - that is yet another antisemitic myth.
> ? ?
> ?
> ? You mean "Communist Party of the Soviet Union"
> ?
>
> What else could I mean?
>
Even Israel has "workers party".
Communist or pro- communistic parties exist in several countries.
When I look at soviets and post soviets communistic leaders.
I think: "What do you say, you did not and do not try to build any
communism,
you always wished to get power."
But as I know jews ran communism and socialism.
> ? ? You will tell us anecdote about Jews and I'll tell you a true story.
> ? ? My Grandfather Shalom, Grandmother Rachel, aunt Perla, aunt Sara,
> ? ? aunt Basia,
> ? ? Uncle Moshe were killed by ukrainians during WWII in a horrible way,
> ? ? my mother survived just because she wasn't there. Many other extended
> ? ? family members were murdered as well. Here is for the tolerant hate
> ? ? you are talking
> ? ? about.
> ?
> ? What ukrainians?
> ? Why don't you complain germans or italians?
> ?
> ? Now I'll tell you enother story.
> ?
> ? My garand father had a big house,
> ? he let the half of it for jewish craftsmen family.
> ? When germans came.
> ? My grand mother understood what's going on and told to the
> ? that jewish woman:
> ? -Bettia, you should escape, coz germans can kill you."
> ? -No, she replayed, germans will send us in Palestine (!).
> ? -If they planed to send you in Palestine, they would not treat you such.
> ? But she did not want to hear.
> ? Finally someday geman soldier came to her son aimed an weapon
> ? and told: "Uda ?" ("Are you jewish ?")
> ? My garnd mother came to him and whiped:
> ? "No, it's my (ukrinian "mey" [m i j] german "mine" - interenation words
> ? -- interepreter) son"
> ? He reasked, she told it again, and bapted him.
> ? Finally soldier was gone.
> ?
> ?
> ? Jews don't want to hear this story.
> ? Because they also BELIVED FASCISTS!!!
> ? So what could you expect from Ukrainians?
>
> There is a Garden in Jerusalem where trees are planted in
> memory of those Gentiles (non-Jews) who risked their lives to save
> Jews during the holocaust, they are called 'The Among the Nations'.
> Some succeeded and some failed, some lived after that and some were
> executed for their deeds. In Yad-Vashem, the memorial institute there
> are listed aproximately 20,000 people, of them there are close to
> 2000 Ukrainians. Those listed by Yad-Vashem can live in Israel,
> and get a pension from the state of Israel.
>
> Why do you think Jews do not want to hear the story?
No.
You don't want to hear me !
I told not about about my grand mother !
I told about that jewish family !
They trusted fascists!
Even jews hoped for fascists!
Ukrainians also hoped for better life,
germans promised us "Der Grosse Ukraina", a lot of people
expected that collective farms will be canceled.
After soviet's regime people believed them, first time.
But germans fulfilled only one of their promises, they killed jews,
who did not escape or hide.
>
> Regarding Germans, I do not think many Jews have warm feeling towards
> them,
> although the Germans had taken the responsibility for their deeds
> and expressed a remorse over the holocaust.
Will you feel better,
if I'll collect a signs under paper where will be written that
Ukrainians
are sorry for killing of jews during Chmelnytski and giving away of jews
during the War ?
>
> Italians have a different story, though. It is told
> that Musolini didn't send Jews to die from the areas under his
> control,
> although he had established anti-Jewish laws. I don't think he was a
> Jew lover
> but he didn't agree to the German policy of anihilation of the Jewish
> population, and protected the Jews under his control. Italians In
> general
> didn't cooperate with Germans on the Jewish issue.
Ukrainian generals also did not cooperated with Germans in your issue.
But I guess some Italians did.
>
> Only after Musoliny was overthrown and reestablished as a puppet
> ruler of nothern Italy, Jews from Italy were sent to their death,
> with Germans running the operation.
> ?
> ?
> ?
> ?
> ?
> ?
> ?
> ? After that case that family escaped to the forest,
> ? about farther their fate my mother knows nothing.
> ?
> ?
> ?
> ? ?
> ? ? I will quote a passage from the bible (deuteronomy 25:17-20)
> ? ? "Remember what the Amalekites did to you on your way from Egypt, how
> ? ? they met you along the way and cut off all your stragglers in the rear
> ? ? of the march when you were exhausted and tired; they were unafraid of
> ? ? God. So when the Lord your God gives you relief from all the enemies
> ? ? who surround you in the land he is giving you as an inheritance, you
> ? ? must wipe the memory of the Amalekites from under heaven?do not
> ? ? forget!"
> ? ?
> ? ? Although I am not a believer I think this passage is apropriate here.
> ? ?
> ? ? I will leave you with your fears from the Jews, its a miserable life
> ? ? to live by fear , but hey, it is your life, your problem.
> ? ?
> ?
> ? If so, why did you replay me.
> ?
> ? I think you also feeded with all those staff about antisemitism.
> ? And I think you also lives in fear.
>
> But tell me that , do you think that Jews fear from antisemitism is
> not
> justified in the light of the bloody history?
A bloody history.
All history is bloody !!!
"... bloody church if England, requests in history ..." --Ian Anderson.
Oh, I could give you a lot of bloody examples.
But today, you have such powerful background, in face of America.
You have money. You have army and (look around) nuclear weapon.
And tanks which drive backward. :)
What can happened with you ?
> Its not a car accident
> nor plane crash, nor some kind of natural disaster that killed so
> many of my family.
My members of family also died,
my uncle, for instance, died during the Hunger.
And I saw one man who's father was killed during 6 days war.
What would you tell him ?
> History repeat itself, somebody wise said, but we
> do
> not learn from it nothing.
>
> And do you think that fears from the Jews are justified?
Any powerful nation early or later may get control over other nations,
and enslave them.
Look at:
Babylon, Persian Empire, Rome, France, Dania, England, Russia, and now
United States.
With the 6-days war you crushed everything.
Such wording as "fair war" confuse europeans.
Your usability to make a peace with palestinians,
also make people to irrespect you.
I don't think that Palestinians lived better in independent Palestine.
And they like all advantages which you gave.
But it gets in shadow.
Such word as "revenge action" sounds very dissonant.
Don't you see that you are looking like violator?
Each information about "revenge action" seamed like
(how to explain it) act of violation.
If you told "we found and arrested people who prepared the ter. act",
it sounded much better.
But when TV say "Israelian missile hit the car with palestinian kid".
It makes to hate you.
Some articles that Palestine was unpopulated before jews came here,
also sound unclear.
Words "we brought democracy for them" convince much better,
until the next "revenge action".
Also story of MordИhay makes people to hate your kind of democracy.
Scientists feels respectable for their creations.
Even Nilce Baur passed information about Manhattan Project to Soviet
Union,
I guess, to prevent a nuclear war.
You must understand, the scientists of the World are solidar folk.
>
> Antisemitism is evident, here on the net. I do not have to go so far
> to find it, even in your posts, parhaps unconscious, but it is
> still there.
Kill me.
Best wishes.
--Michaelo
> Have a nice day.
> -----
> YOELK
>
> ?
> ?
> ? ? Have a nice day
> ? ? -----
> ? ? YOELK
> ? ?
> ? ? Michaelo ?mich...@ukr.net? wrote in message news:?408991D5...@ukr.net?...
> ? ? ? Have a good health.
> ? ? ?
> ? ? ? Let me tell you about jews in Ukraine.
> ? ? ?
> ? ? ? Ukraine for ancient jews lied out of their "world".
> ? ? ? However jews used word "skiff" as romes used "barbar" ("barbarian").
> ? ? ? Skiffs was one of folk which lived on territory of Ukraine before
> ? ? ? start of Slavic civilization.
> ? ? ?
> ? ? ? So, I guess, since romes ruin Israel,
> ? ? ? a lot of jews went in all sides of the world.
> ? ? ? Some of them get Ukraine.
> ? ? ? Since what time they live here I don't know.
> ? ? ? When first ukrainian empire was created (not by ukrainian leader)
> ? ? ? here was a lot of different people,
> ? ? ? and particularly a lot of ancestors of Swedes, Dens, Norwegian...
> ? ? ? Probably here was also jews.
> ? ? ? After christianity came Ukraine the persecution of all other religion
> ? ? ? was started. Especially government persecuted ukrainian pagans.
> ? ? ? But any way it was one of most humanous and cultural civilization,
> ? ? ? with element of Greece fashion democracy.
> ? ? ? Later Ukraine got under mongolo-tatarian invasion.
> ? ? ? And after it, in 13 century, Ukraine was formed some unique kind of
> ? ? ? state it had elements of feudalism and democracy.
> ? ? ? A lot of people came Ukraine from several sides of the world.
> ? ? ? Most of them was mixed with Ukrainians.
> ? ? ? Even today, you may find in faces of Ukrainians trace of several
> ? ? ? nations.
> ? ? ? For instance I knew one ukrainian girl with dark skin, with a sicilian
> ? ? ? face,
> ? ? ? and big ah ... brea-e-e-e-sts.
> ? ? ?
> ? ? ? I think exactly in this period jews came Ukraine,
> ? ? ? it was not the best place in the world.
> ? ? ? But I think they felt themselves here
> ? ? ? more surely than in other lands.
> ? ? ?
> ? ? ? They was farming, and doing crafts.
> ? ? ? Also some of them lend money and sold alcohol.
> ? ? ? In mentality of Ukrainian printed the last two of their professions.
> ? ? ? But ukrainian anti-Semitism was rose together with ukrainian
> ? ? ? nationalism,
> ? ? ? which turned into anti- Polish insurgence managed by Bohdan Chmelnytski
> ? ? ? (For the moment Poland already controlled Ukraine.)
> ? ? ? Polish was horrible people with dumb honor.
> ? ? ? But I hate Chmelnytski. He planed to introduce monarchy in Ukraine,
> ? ? ? ruin democratic traditions, persecuted outlanders (and jews),
> ? ? ? and finally he jointed Ukraine to Russia.
> ? ? ? But for Ukrainians he was a hero (!).
> ? ? ? By the way Poles also was anti-Semites.
> ? ? ?
> ? ? ? But jews remained.
> ? ? ? Russia also did not respect jews so much. Finally they got under
> ? ? ? serious sanctions.
> ? ? ? With time they forgot their languages (hebrey and idisch),
> ? ? ? they lived in small towns and villages.
> ? ? ? But later started their renaissance. In Ukraine lived and worked
> ? ? ? founder of the new stream of jewish religion.
> ? ? ? A lot of jews came here each year to his town Uman.
> ? ? ? Ones one of TV-channel (created and ruled by jews (!))
> ? ? ? showed how they (jews who follow this stream) love Ukrainians.
> ? ? ? They hate us! :)
> ? ? ? Most of jews hate Ukrainians, we also pay them with same.
> ? ? ? But! This is especial kind of hate.
> ? ? ? I'd say it's very tolerant.
> ? ? ? And if some politicians and public figures want to play on it,
> ? ? ? I guess we must stop it !!! And not just only stop (!).
> ? ? ? Also in Ukraine worked on of jewish writers Shalom Alechem.
> ? ? ? He described national character of jews, in humorous stories.
> ? ? ? He was blamed in anti-Semitism, but today he is a symbol of Ukrainian
> ? ? ? jews.
> ? ? ?
> ? ? ? Well. There's an anecdote of unknown author. Some people say they famous
> ? ? ? ukrainian
> ? ? ? writer Ivan Franko composed it.
> ? ? ? ====begin====
> ? ? ? It was in western Ukraine in places where was shell.
> ? ? ? To ukrainian Ivan came pure naked jew and say - "dig a hole to the oil".
> ? ? ? Ivan digs. When he reached oil jew say - "ladle the shell".
> ? ? ? He ladled. Jew take a pail and went to the marked he sold it.
> ? ? ? ?From it he paid Ivan for job.
> ? ? ? Next time he sold two ladles of shell. And so on.
> ? ? ? ====end====
> ? ? ? It's written in typically Ukrainian style. What context ot this story?
> ? ? ? Jews exploit Ukrainians. But why? Because Ukrainians are unable to
> ? ? ? manage their business. It teach - "if you don't want to work for jew,
> ? ? ? be such smart as a jew, if you are so stupid it's your problem".
> ? ? ? Is it an anti-Semitism ?
> ? ? ?
> ? ? ? I think that it's only way to not allow jews control ourselves.
> ? ? ? We must to be such as jews, to be smart, to be cultural, to be educated.
> ? ? ? We must to be able to renaissance.
> ? ? ? If jew create an enterprise, ukrainian must create an enterprise.
> ? ? ? If jews create a cultural center, we must create an art gallery or a
> ? ? ? publishery.
> ? ? ? If jews make a discovery, we must make a discovery.
> ? ? ? All the Europe made such.
> ? ? ?
> ? ? ? That's all.
> ? ? ?
> ? ? ? Nice to stay.
> ? ? ?
> ? ? ? --Michaelo.
> ? ? ?
> ? ? ? P.S. But any way I think Israel must beg a pardon of Mordechai,
> ? ? ? and all Israelian DISSIDENTS. Regulate a usage of water with neighbors,
> ? ? ? and allow Palestinians live as they want on their ground (sand :)
> ? ? ? (I do not think that all of them are such x-treemists).
BTov
your an irish shikse
you wouldnt understand
the euro joowish people are descendants of aberaham
and your still an irish shikse
your descended from irish apes
enjoy already ;)
b'wahahahahahaha!!!!!
Susan Cohen
"The Phony Rev" <dkas...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bd24d00f.04042...@posting.google.com...
> "Susan Cohen" <fla...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:<o8Gic.35358$Aq.2...@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>...
> > "Kevin Brook" <kuz...@lycos.com> wrote in message
> > news:eb613152.04042...@posting.google.com...
> > >
> > > Kevin Alan Brook, "The Origins of East European Jews," in Russian
> > > History/Histoire Russe, vol. 30, no. 1-2 (Spring-Summer 2003), pages
> > > 1-22.
> >
> > If the theory of this book is that all or most European Jews are the
> > descendents of the Khazars, I would defintiely suggest Michealo get
another
> > source.
> >
> > Susan
>
> your an irish shikse
Not that the lying bigot can prove, of course.
> you wouldnt understand
> the euro joowish people are descendants of aberaham
And so am I.
> and your still an irish shikse
Not that the lying bigot can prove, of course.
> your descended from irish apes
Which would still puts me ahead of the lying bigot pretending to be "BTov"
> enjoy already ;)
Oh, I do, belive me.
I enjoy laughing at lying bigots, and I enjoy the fact that everyone else
is, too.
Susan
> b'wahahahahahaha!!!!!
Markku Grönroos
"Susan Cohen" <fla...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:hkajc.40110$Aq.3...@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
YOELK
Oh, there wer incidents between the pilgrim Jews and local Ukrainians.
I'd say it possible that locals had made some remarks and tried to
intimidate
Jews, and Jews just just left without paying.
>
> But before last presidents election, Ukrainian radical organization UNSO
> came Uman and started some action TV showed entry "beat the jews".
> They did not tell "jews persecute palestinians"
> or "jews put a scientist in jail",
> they told absolutely clear "beat the jews".
>
> But during parliaments elections I ah ... voted for them,
> you must understand me, it was a sigh of protest,
> because I hate all of candidates and parties (including UNSO).
> Any way I knew that they have no chances. :)
> They got about 20,000 of votes from about 20,000,000 voted people.
Protest against what exactly?
>
> Do you remember "election of Sharon" ?
>
>
Sure, but I don't recall any Jewish suicide bombers blowing
in Ukrainian Busses killing inocent cotizens.
> > BTW, I personally find that such pilgrimage is tasteless, but I
> > won't force my view on those followers.
>
> I such understand it's mix of judaism and oriental (far eastern)
> philosophy.
You can say so. It is sort of more spiritual Judaism rooted
in Medival Jewish mysticism.
>
> >
> > ? ? Were all workers there jews? Was the news editor a jew?
> > ? ? Did they speak there Iddish or Hebrew?
> > ?
> > ? No. (but some word with translation, in jewish program)
> > ? I didn't mean it.
> > ?
> > ? ?
> > ? ? You are just trying to justify Ukrainian hate for the Jews
> > ? ? be talking about hate of the Jews to the Ukrainians. But do you think
> > ? ? it is comparable? Do you expect Jews to love a nation who's national
> > ? ? hero
> > ? ? killed thousands and thousands of Jews?
> > ?
> > ? I guess it's not a main reason.
> >
> > No? How do you know that?
>
> I guess they forgot it.
> They hate us because we are stupid.
Jews don't forget so easily.
>
> > There are 3 reasons connected together
> > that make Jews dislike the Ukrainians, the first is Chmelnytski,
> > the second is WWII and what happenned in Ukraine during the war,
> > and the third is Ukrainian Antisemitism.
>
> Well I also hate Chmelnytski.
> I don't know did you read it, but I'll repeat.
> He broke remains of cosack's democracy, he canceled elections of
> hetmans, usurped this position, extended his rights,
> actually turned it into monarchy.
>
> He broke national tolerance of Ukrainians (not only to jews and poles).
>
> And finally he jointed Ukraine to Russia.
>
>
> But Petlura, and Bandéra was not anti-Semites.
> Waffen SS [G|H]alit[z|sch]ina did not captured jews as some people say.
> Some Ukrainians gave away jews.
> What could you expect from them ?
> They also was persecuted first by Russians then by Germans.
> Even jews betrayed Moses.
>
It is said that during Petlura time between 1919-1920
60,000 Jews were murdered. Parhaps Petlura objected it or promoted it,
anyway the Ukrainians did it, didn't they?
> Russian widely used such technology,
> they selected a people with faces seamed Ukrainians
> tough them to speak Ukrainian with all especiality,
> wore in Uniform of first army of Petlura, then UPA.
> Then sent to make several military crimes,
> to tune public mind.
>
> Also they widely used provocateurs.
>
> And last one Ukrainian anti-Semitism.
> Yes, it grows last time.
>
> But why ?
> I quoted an article.
>
I don't believe Russia had staged the wole thing.
> It's because of Russia.
>
> >
> > ?
> > ? ? Did Ukrainians suffered
> > ? ? anything
> > ? ? comparable from Jews that came up organized to kill Ukrainians?
> > ? ? No, don't tell me about the Communist era. Jews didn't run the
> > ? ? communist
> > ? ? party - that is yet another antisemitic myth.
> > ? ?
> > ?
> > ? You mean "Communist Party of the Soviet Union"
> > ?
> >
> > What else could I mean?
> >
>
> Even Israel has "workers party".
> Communist or pro- communistic parties exist in several countries.
Israels workers party or to be more precise israels Labor party
has very little to do with communism.
There is a cummunist party in Israel, staffed mainly with arabs.
>
> When I look at soviets and post soviets communistic leaders.
> I think: "What do you say, you did not and do not try to build any
> communism,
> you always wished to get power."
>
> But as I know jews ran communism and socialism.
Sure, like hell!
you can check and find that many Ukrainians participated in the
Soviet Communist party and had much higher positions than Jews.
So what? They did not understand what was coming upon their heads,
it came all very quickly, and when they understood it was too late.
>
> Ukrainians also hoped for better life,
> germans promised us "Der Grosse Ukraina", a lot of people
> expected that collective farms will be canceled.
>
> After soviet's regime people believed them, first time.
>
> But germans fulfilled only one of their promises, they killed jews,
> who did not escape or hide.
>
>
> >
> > Regarding Germans, I do not think many Jews have warm feeling towards
> > them,
> > although the Germans had taken the responsibility for their deeds
> > and expressed a remorse over the holocaust.
>
> Will you feel better,
> if I'll collect a signs under paper where will be written that
> Ukrainians
> are sorry for killing of jews during Chmelnytski and giving away of jews
> during the War ?
No need for that.
>
>
> >
> > Italians have a different story, though. It is told
> > that Musolini didn't send Jews to die from the areas under his
> > control,
> > although he had established anti-Jewish laws. I don't think he was a
> > Jew lover
> > but he didn't agree to the German policy of anihilation of the Jewish
> > population, and protected the Jews under his control. Italians In
> > general
> > didn't cooperate with Germans on the Jewish issue.
>
> Ukrainian generals also did not cooperated with Germans in your issue.
>
> But I guess some Italians did.
>
Which ones?
Still there is no reason to accept all evil things that happen, right?
>
> "... bloody church if England, requests in history ..." --Ian Anderson.
>
> Oh, I could give you a lot of bloody examples.
>
> But today, you have such powerful background, in face of America.
> You have money. You have army and (look around) nuclear weapon.
> And tanks which drive backward. :)
>
> What can happened with you ?
Who knows? my crystal ball is broken...
>
> > Its not a car accident
> > nor plane crash, nor some kind of natural disaster that killed so
> > many of my family.
>
> My members of family also died,
> my uncle, for instance, died during the Hunger.
Sorry to hear that. Though I know many Ukrainians died in the 20's
and 30's of last century, during collectivization and purges Stalin
made.
>
> And I saw one man who's father was killed during 6 days war.
> What would you tell him ?
I'd tell him that in Israel Jews are not subject to the mercy
of our enemies, and Jews defend themselves , for whatever it costs.
>
> > History repeat itself, somebody wise said, but we
> > do
> > not learn from it nothing.
> >
> > And do you think that fears from the Jews are justified?
>
> Any powerful nation early or later may get control over other nations,
> and enslave them.
>
> Look at:
> Babylon, Persian Empire, Rome, France, Dania, England, Russia, and now
> United States.
>
And Jews are no power to par with those powers.
> With the 6-days war you crushed everything.
> Such wording as "fair war" confuse europeans.
>
The Arab leader Nazzer who united and galvanized the Arab
world when bragged he would crush Israel in 48 hours. Israel fought
for it's life.
> Your usability to make a peace with palestinians,
> also make people to irrespect you.
Sure.
>
> I don't think that Palestinians lived better in independent Palestine.
> And they like all advantages which you gave.
> But it gets in shadow.
Believe it or not, but Israel was ready to peace with Palestinians,
but couldn't meet their two demands - to give up Jerusalem and let
millions
of Palestiians refugees and their families to return to their homes in
Israel.
These homes do not exist anymoe, the modern Israel was built upon
their ruins.
>
> Such word as "revenge action" sounds very dissonant.
Do you mean killing militants ? these are no revenge actions but
pure self defence against poeple who plan and prepare attacks against
Israel.
>
> Don't you see that you are looking like violator?
>
I'd rather look as a viloator and defend myself then be killed.
This is why the state of Israel was established.
> Each information about "revenge action" seamed like
> (how to explain it) act of violation.
> If you told "we found and arrested people who prepared the ter. act",
> it sounded much better.
> But when TV say "Israelian missile hit the car with palestinian kid".
> It makes to hate you.
I am really sorry that Palestinian kids are being hurt or killed.
It does not do any good to the defence of Israel, but as the
palestinian militia men are surounded by innocent people we sometimes
hit accidently innocent.
>
> Some articles that Palestine was unpopulated before jews came here,
> also sound unclear.
>
And if it was populated then what?
> Words "we brought democracy for them" convince much better,
> until the next "revenge action".
We are not here to benefit the palestinians, let them
handle their own business in their own ways.
>
> Also story of Mordéhay makes people to hate your kind of democracy.
> Scientists feels respectable for their creations.
> Even Nilce Baur passed information about Manhattan Project to Soviet
> Union,
> I guess, to prevent a nuclear war.
> You must understand, the scientists of the World are solidar folk.
You are probably talking about Va'anunu who supposedly exposed
the secrets of Israel's atomic project. Well , he broke the law and
gave away state serets and he was punished accordingly. I think he
would have been executed if he was in Ukraine.
BTW, two scientists were excecuted in the US for giving the Soviets
the nuclear secrets of US.
But you are welcomed to hate as much as you like.
>
>
> >
> > Antisemitism is evident, here on the net. I do not have to go so far
> > to find it, even in your posts, parhaps unconscious, but it is
> > still there.
>
> Kill me.
>
> Best wishes.
>
> --Michaelo
>
Why should do such a thing?
Best regards,
-----
YOELK
Winston Smith, American Patriot
>
> "Michaelo" <mich...@ukr.net> wrote in message
> news:408991D5...@ukr.net...
> > Have a good health.
> >
>
> thank you. are you jewish michaelo?
why MF you be talking shit now
Michaelo
>
> "Susan Cohen" <fla...@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<o8Gic.35358$Aq.2...@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>...
> > "Kevin Brook" <kuz...@lycos.com> wrote in message
> > news:eb613152.04042...@posting.google.com...
> > >
> > > Kevin Alan Brook, "The Origins of East European Jews," in Russian
> > > History/Histoire Russe, vol. 30, no. 1-2 (Spring-Summer 2003), pages
> > > 1-22.
> >
> > If the theory of this book is that all or most European Jews are the
> > descendents of the Khazars, I would defintiely suggest Michealo get another
> > source.
> >
> > Susan
>
> your an irish shikse
Cohen
Is jewish last name.
> you wouldnt understand
> the euro joowish people are descendants of aberaham
a "jOOwish"
why not "soewish" or "hoewish",
a lot of people (including me) tried to make an order in english
spelling,
but it's IMPSSIBLE !!!
Captain!
"Winston Smith, American Patriot" <Franz...@Oceania.WhiteHouse.GC> wrote
in message news:108qurs...@news.supernews.com...
here is another example of how literacy and ebonics just don't mix.
Michaelo
[skip]
> Oh, there wer incidents between the pilgrim Jews and local Ukrainians.
> I'd say it possible that locals had made some remarks and tried to
> intimidate
> Jews, and Jews just just left without paying.
>
They showed interview with different people:
inhabitants, bus driver.
It really looked as pilgrims hate them.
But did you ever was in Ukrainian village or small town.
Just example in just reconstructed station Iaresky
at the reel way between Keive and Poltava
is a toilet. It's a small box with hole in a flour
there is such smell that, I guess, you never felt.
In the station is a hall for waiting of train.
But it's always locked (to keep it in good condition).
Should I continue ?
I do not surprised that people who lived in Israel got in ukrainian
small town
start to hate ukrainians.
Any way, you realized (agreed) that you hate us.
[skip]
> > But during parliaments elections I ah ... voted for them,
> > you must understand me, it was a sigh of protest,
> > because I hate all of candidates and parties (including UNSO).
> > Any way I knew that they have no chances. :)
> > They got about 20,000 of votes from about 20,000,000 voted people.
>
> Protest against what exactly?
Against inability to choice.
UNSO, as I though, was only non conformist's force
which demonstratively fought against government.
> >
> > Do you remember "election of Sharon" ?
> >
> >
> Sure, but I don't recall any Jewish suicide bombers blowing
> in Ukrainian Busses killing inocent cotizens.
Did you vote that time ?
>
> > > BTW, I personally find that such pilgrimage is tasteless, but I
> > > won't force my view on those followers.
> >
> > I such understand it's mix of judaism and oriental (far eastern)
> > philosophy.
>
> You can say so. It is sort of more spiritual Judaism rooted
> in Medival Jewish mysticism.
[skip]
> > > ? ? killed thousands and thousands of Jews?
> > > ?
> > > ? I guess it's not a main reason.
> > >
> > > No? How do you know that?
> >
> > I guess they forgot it.
> > They hate us because we are stupid.
>
> Jews don't forget so easily.
So you remember what was 300 years ago ?
[skip]
> > But Petlura, and Bandéra was not anti-Semites.
[skip]
>
> It is said that during Petlura time between 1919-1920
> 60,000 Jews were murdered. Parhaps Petlura objected it or promoted it,
> anyway the Ukrainians did it, didn't they?
Probably they killed.
But I don't think that so many.
And in that time was killed a lot of other people by several people.
>
> > Russian widely used such technology,
> > they selected a people with faces seamed Ukrainians
> > tough them to speak Ukrainian with all especiality,
> > wore in Uniform of first army of Petlura, then UPA.
> > Then sent to make several military crimes,
> > to tune public mind.
> >
> > Also they widely used provocateurs.
> >
> > And last one Ukrainian anti-Semitism.
> > Yes, it grows last time.
> >
> > But why ?
> > I quoted an article.
> >
>
> I don't believe Russia had staged the wole thing.
>
Is "wole thing" = "entire piece" ?
Surely no.
But they created a picture.
And they "trew first stones".
[skip]
> > Even Israel has "workers party".
> > Communist or pro- communistic parties exist in several countries.
>
> Israels workers party or to be more precise israels Labor party
> has very little to do with communism.
> There is a cummunist party in Israel, staffed mainly with arabs.
Ah.
[skip]
> > But as I know jews ran communism and socialism.
>
> Sure, like hell!
> you can check and find that many Ukrainians participated in the
> Soviet Communist party and had much higher positions than Jews.
Well, Founder of socialist's and communist's philosophy,
Karl Marks (Levy Mordehay) probably was ukrainian.
Second figure in Soviet Union, Trotski (Leiba Bronstein) was also
ukrainian.
There no authentic information but there are rumors which say that
Lenin was also jewish.
Why Trotski did not stop first hunger in Ukraine in 1920 ?
He had enough influence.
So.
I want to say left ideology was grew by Jews.
Finally socialism begins in jewish way of thinking.
Synagogues collected money and helped people who need it.
They gave flats for instance.
Communism is invention of french naļve idiots,
but only Marx made reliable conception of it.
As we can see it was suicidal.
Also, I heard on TV (same channel), that Stalin was popular figure
in israelian autonomy of Palestine.
1. Not all jews are so sweet.
2. So, your nation allow to fool themselves again.
[skip]
> >
> > They trusted fascists!
> > Even jews hoped for fascists!
>
> So what? They did not understand what was coming upon their heads,
> it came all very quickly, and when they understood it was too late.
ukrainians ALSO did not understand what is coming upon their heads,
since they understood they started to resist.
Dans (danish people) knew who are germans they resisted them from the
beginning.
And my grand mother understood it before her friend.
She (Betta) was hypnotized.
Until I did not hear that story,
I could not believe why so many people walked to Baba's Iar
and did not try to hide.
Time after time I go near that place.
Before I thought happily - how many communists was killed there,
with aging I start to think about people.
But communists, I guess, was dragged there, jews walked with hope.
Not far from there is very high tower with antennas which serves
television.
Including 60 KiloWatt of fooling of this regime.
Which painted ones how good for us to get close to arabic countries,
where instead of word "corruption" uses words "good relations".
[skip]
> > Will you feel better,
> > if I'll collect a signs under paper where will be written that
> > Ukrainians
> > are sorry for killing of jews during Chmelnytski and giving away of jews
> > during the War ?
>
> No need for that.
...
[skip]
> > > population, and protected the Jews under his control. Italians In
> > > general
> > > didn't cooperate with Germans on the Jewish issue.
> >
> > Ukrainian generals also did not cooperated with Germans in your issue.
> >
> > But I guess some Italians did.
> >
>
> Which ones?
Do you say that - no one italian did not gave away now one jew ?
They hated jews because it was very popular, and did not give away them
?
Impossible !!!
[skip]
> > > But tell me that , do you think that Jews fear from antisemitism is
> > > not
> > > justified in the light of the bloody history?
> >
> > A bloody history.
> >
> > All history is bloody !!!
>
> Still there is no reason to accept all evil things that happen, right?
Well.
What was so exceptional in perscution of jews comparrible with other
nations ?
Russian killed entire nations.
For instance russians (however ruled by two Ukrianians) killed almost
all
population of north of modern russian's federation.
The population which had no concepts of any militarism,
they used weapon only for hunting.
Putin's russia still crushes remains of culture of remains of that
forkls.
Anecdotes about them was, may be, more popular,
in Soviet Union, than anecdotes about jews.
You are not only who have such history.
Do you recomend that nations to blame each who tell about them?
By the way, how Israel jointed Samaria and Galilea ?
[skip]
> > But today, you have such powerful background, in face of America.
> > You have money. You have army and (look around) nuclear weapon.
> > And tanks which drive backward. :)
> >
> > What can happened with you ?
>
> Who knows? my crystal ball is broken...
Ask for 3rd pontiff to make a new one for you. (Did you read that ? :)
> > And I saw one man who's father was killed during 6 days war.
> > What would you tell him ?
>
> I'd tell him that in Israel Jews are not subject to the mercy
> of our enemies, and Jews defend themselves , for whatever it costs.
Did they attack Israel before 1968 ?
[skip]
> > Look at:
> > Babylon, Persian Empire, Rome, France, Dania, England, Russia, and now
> > United States.
> >
> And Jews are no power to par with those powers.
Why ?
You are smart, strong and powerful nation.
Where the guaranty that someday you will not try to extend you power in
violent way?
We are too stupid, at the moment.
I saw in one documental movie expression of one jewish man who told:
"We must extend our borders into desert." (To get more water.)
"the desert" means some of arabian countries.
Was he a lunatic (crazy) ?
>
> > With the 6-days war you crushed everything.
> > Such wording as "fair war" confuse europeans.
> >
> The Arab leader Nazzer who united and galvanized the Arab
> world when bragged he would crush Israel in 48 hours. Israel fought
> for it's life.
Oops?
How they can do it?
They had even no weapon.
Syrian, for instance, was armed with medieval knifes.
If they was strong enough to crush Israel,
why Israel overcame them so fast ?
>
> > Your usability to make a peace with palestinians,
> > also make people to irrespect you.
>
> Sure.
Sorry I meant not "usability", but "inability".
[skip]
>
> Believe it or not, but Israel was ready to peace with Palestinians,
> but couldn't meet their two demands - to give up Jerusalem and let
> millions
> of Palestiians refugees and their families to return to their homes in
> Israel.
> These homes do not exist anymoe, the modern Israel was built upon
> their ruins.
I thought a lot why (?) why (?) why (?) Arafat was tricking?
What did he want ?
Where is the logic ?
Only what I could invent that he scare that with time Israel will
squeeze Palestine.
(Came on mind that phrase: "extend the border to the desert".)
And seams you agreed to divide Jerusalem.
> > Such word as "revenge action" sounds very dissonant.
>
> Do you mean killing militants ? these are no revenge actions but
> pure self defence against poeple who plan and prepare attacks against
> Israel.
TV each time says "vidplatna actia" or "actia pomsti" ("revenge
actions").
>
> >
> > Don't you see that you are looking like violator?
> >
>
> I'd rather look as a viloator and defend myself then be killed.
> This is why the state of Israel was established.
[skip]
> > Some articles that Palestine was unpopulated before jews came here,
> > also sound unclear.
> >
>
> And if it was populated then what?
They have a law for that ground at least for half of it.
You came from Europe and America on the ground which was populated.
Turkey was Christian's less than 1000 years ago.
Should we capture Turkey ?
And finally, ain't Palestinians offsprings of ancient jews?
> > Words "we brought democracy for them" convince much better,
> > until the next "revenge action".
>
> We are not here to benefit the palestinians, let them
> handle their own business in their own ways.
But you did it.
>
> >
> > Also story of Mordéhay makes people to hate your kind of democracy.
> > Scientists feels respectable for their creations.
> > Even Nilce Baur passed information about Manhattan Project to Soviet
> > Union,
> > I guess, to prevent a nuclear war.
> > You must understand, the scientists of the World are solidar folk.
>
> You are probably talking about Va'anunu who supposedly exposed
> the secrets of Israel's atomic project. Well , he broke the law and
> gave away state serets and he was punished accordingly. I think he
> would have been executed if he was in Ukraine.
> BTW, two scientists were excecuted in the US for giving the Soviets
> the nuclear secrets of US.
>
> But you are welcomed to hate as much as you like.
>
Thank you.
I think you also may hate as you much.
Well I don't know how to call him correctly.
But he did not pass any technical or scientistical information, as that
couple.
He just told that Israel works at nuclear weapon.
He did not help, say China, or anybody else to create a weapon.
It only drop political shade on Israel.
> > > Antisemitism is evident, here on the net. I do not have to go so far
> > > to find it, even in your posts, parhaps unconscious, but it is
> > > still there.
> >
> > Kill me.
> >
> > Best wishes.
> >
> > --Michaelo
> >
>
> Why should do such a thing?
There are reasons.
For instance, for sharing anti-Semite's ideas.
Bye.
--Michaelo
P.S. I also should express my condolence (regret) about death of members
of your family.
I didn't it before, because I was afraid that you'd get them devious
(not real).
[skip]
Markku Grönroos
"Michaelo" <mich...@ukr.net> wrote in message
news:408D85C0...@ukr.net...
Susan Cohen
> >
> > "Susan Cohen" <fla...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:<o8Gic.35358$Aq.2...@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>...
> > > "Kevin Brook" <kuz...@lycos.com> wrote in message
> > > news:eb613152.04042...@posting.google.com...
> > > >
> > > > Kevin Alan Brook, "The Origins of East European Jews," in Russian
> > > > History/Histoire Russe, vol. 30, no. 1-2 (Spring-Summer 2003), pages
> > > > 1-22.
> > >
> > > If the theory of this book is that all or most European Jews are the
> > > descendents of the Khazars, I would defintiely suggest Michealo get
another
> > > source.
> > >
> > > Susan
> >
> > your an irish shikse
>
> Cohen
> Is jewish last name.
Yes, it is.
But I am also a convert.
If you would like me to e-mail you, itis an interesting story.
But not one I will post; I like to let the hatemongers stay confused, &
continue to document their hate thru the exchange of incorrect information.
Susan
Markku Grönroos
"Susan Cohen" <fla...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:mstjc.86370$L31....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
YOELK
> YOELK wrote:
>
> [skip]
>
> > Oh, there wer incidents between the pilgrim Jews and local Ukrainians.
> > I'd say it possible that locals had made some remarks and tried to
> > intimidate
> > Jews, and Jews just just left without paying.
> >
>
> They showed interview with different people:
> inhabitants, bus driver.
>
> It really looked as pilgrims hate them.
As I said before, it may be only part of the story...
The Pligrim Jews parhaps responded to insults and attempts of
intimidation
by Ukrainians. Did the TV program interviewed also Jewish pilgrims?
>
> But did you ever was in Ukrainian village or small town.
> Just example in just reconstructed station Iaresky
> at the reel way between Keive and Poltava
> is a toilet. It's a small box with hole in a flour
> there is such smell that, I guess, you never felt.
>
> In the station is a hall for waiting of train.
> But it's always locked (to keep it in good condition).
> Should I continue ?
>
So you say that the Jews are responsible for a smell in the toilet?
Oh, Please continue, what other attrocities do Jews in Ukraine?
It is definitely a good entertainment for me.
> I do not surprised that people who lived in Israel got in ukrainian
> small town
> start to hate ukrainians.
I completely lost you here. Did you mean to say
"...in small towns start hating Jews"? But they always did...
>
> Any way, you realized (agreed) that you hate us.
For most Jews Ukraine belongs to the past, and there is
definitely an anger towards Ukrainians, but why should that bother
you?
Anyway I do not know much about the pilgrims atttude towards Ukrain,
but as I told you those pilgrims are not my cup of tea either.
>
> [skip]
>
> > > But during parliaments elections I ah ... voted for them,
> > > you must understand me, it was a sigh of protest,
> > > because I hate all of candidates and parties (including UNSO).
> > > Any way I knew that they have no chances. :)
> > > They got about 20,000 of votes from about 20,000,000 voted people.
> >
> > Protest against what exactly?
>
> Against inability to choice.
> UNSO, as I though, was only non conformist's force
> which demonstratively fought against government.
So "beat the Jews" is the answer to your problems? Hmm. Interseting...
>
>
> > >
> > > Do you remember "election of Sharon" ?
> > >
> > >
> > Sure, but I don't recall any Jewish suicide bombers blowing
> > in Ukrainian Busses killing inocent cotizens.
>
> Did you vote that time ?
Nope. I have desided to abstain.
>
> >
> > > > BTW, I personally find that such pilgrimage is tasteless, but I
> > > > won't force my view on those followers.
> > >
> > > I such understand it's mix of judaism and oriental (far eastern)
> > > philosophy.
> >
> > You can say so. It is sort of more spiritual Judaism rooted
> > in Medival Jewish mysticism.
>
> [skip]
>
> > > > ? ? killed thousands and thousands of Jews?
> > > > ?
> > > > ? I guess it's not a main reason.
> > > >
> > > > No? How do you know that?
> > >
> > > I guess they forgot it.
> > > They hate us because we are stupid.
> >
> > Jews don't forget so easily.
>
> So you remember what was 300 years ago ?
And what happenned 2000 years ago as well.
But tell me that, Michaelo , if Ukrainians remember Chmielistski
after 300 years , why wouldn't the Jews remember him?
But if antismitism is stupidity ...
>
> [skip]
>
> > > But Petlura, and Bandéra was not anti-Semites.
>
> [skip]
>
> >
> > It is said that during Petlura time between 1919-1920
> > 60,000 Jews were murdered. Parhaps Petlura objected it or promoted it,
> > anyway the Ukrainians did it, didn't they?
>
> Probably they killed.
> But I don't think that so many.
How many then, would you say?
And if it was 20,000 Jews murdered, would it be much different for
you,
would you feel more comfortable?
>
> And in that time was killed a lot of other people by several people.
>
> >
> > > Russian widely used such technology,
> > > they selected a people with faces seamed Ukrainians
> > > tough them to speak Ukrainian with all especiality,
> > > wore in Uniform of first army of Petlura, then UPA.
> > > Then sent to make several military crimes,
> > > to tune public mind.
> > >
> > > Also they widely used provocateurs.
> > >
> > > And last one Ukrainian anti-Semitism.
> > > Yes, it grows last time.
> > >
> > > But why ?
> > > I quoted an article.
> > >
> >
> > I don't believe Russia had staged the wole thing.
> >
>
> Is "wole thing" = "entire piece" ?
My typo, should have been "whole thing".
>
> Surely no.
> But they created a picture.
> And they "trew first stones".
Blaming others on your faults, Michaelo, is a bad habit.
Then you complain you have no democracy, no freedom, etc....
Until you won't acknowledge that something is broken ,
how can you fix it?
>
> [skip]
>
> > > Even Israel has "workers party".
> > > Communist or pro- communistic parties exist in several countries.
> >
> > Israels workers party or to be more precise israels Labor party
> > has very little to do with communism.
> > There is a cummunist party in Israel, staffed mainly with arabs.
>
> Ah.
>
> [skip]
>
> > > But as I know jews ran communism and socialism.
> >
> > Sure, like hell!
> > you can check and find that many Ukrainians participated in the
> > Soviet Communist party and had much higher positions than Jews.
>
> Well, Founder of socialist's and communist's philosophy,
> Karl Marks (Levy Mordehay) probably was ukrainian.
> Second figure in Soviet Union, Trotski (Leiba Bronstein) was also
> ukrainian.
> There no authentic information but there are rumors which say that
> Lenin was also jewish.
There are many urban kegends around.
But tell me please Michaelo, would you say that Jews run christianity
as well?
After all, Jesus was a Jew, so all his apostles and all the members of
the
early church, and even Paul and Peter were Jews.
>
> Why Trotski did not stop first hunger in Ukraine in 1920 ?
> He had enough influence.
Do you mean the hunger during the war between the Wite and Red armies?
Oh, why would you expect him to do that? He was the chief of the Red
Army... Ukrain was strategic to the stablishment of the Soviet Union
at these days. It was the main supplier of grain for the rest of
Russia
even in the days of the Czars.
But he didn't fought this war as a Jew but as a leader in the
Communist
revolution.
>
> So.
> I want to say left ideology was grew by Jews.
>
And so was christianity, at its beginning.
Sorry Michaelo, I don't see any point here.
> Finally socialism begins in jewish way of thinking.
> Synagogues collected money and helped people who need it.
> They gave flats for instance.
You are a bit confused. In most human societies there is the concept
of helping each other, and helping the weak and poor..
I won't give the creadit for THIS idea to judaism.
Churches did the same things and so mosques.
But thanks anyway.
>
> Communism is invention of french naïve idiots,
> but only Marx made reliable conception of it.
> As we can see it was suicidal.
>
See what I have written about Jews and the foundation of christian
church.
> Also, I heard on TV (same channel), that Stalin was popular figure
> in israelian autonomy of Palestine.
Stalin was popular in many places where there was tendency to
socialism and communism. Socialism/communism dominated the Jewish
Zionist
settlement in Palestine since 1900 until late 60's. But the communists
didn't return "love". Instead they have sent most Zionist activists to
Siberia,
eliminating the Zionist movement in the Soviet Union.
The Communists had their original solution to the "Jewish problem",
they suggetted to send all jews to autonomous district somewhere in
central
Asia. After war Communist closed all Jewish schools and forbidden the
teaching
of Yiddish wich was considered in Soviet union national language of
Jews
and stopped recognizing them as a nation.
It took some years until Jews in Israel understood what is going on,
when many Jewish intellectuals were sent to Siberia or executed.
Did you hear anything about the doctors trial, where Stalin accused
Jewish doctors that they are trying to poison him?
Anyway at the end of the Stalin Era The socialist Jews at Israel were
already disillusioned about Stalin.
>
> 1. Not all jews are so sweet.
> 2. So, your nation allow to fool themselves again.
>
Sure, but what does that add to the substance of the issue?
Are Jews better ar superior or other nations?
The only people who claim it are antisemites and Jewish lunatics,
yet we cannot ignore the way history went, and see
what various nations did to Jews.
> [skip]
>
> > >
> > > They trusted fascists!
> > > Even jews hoped for fascists!
> >
> > So what? They did not understand what was coming upon their heads,
> > it came all very quickly, and when they understood it was too late.
>
> ukrainians ALSO did not understand what is coming upon their heads,
> since they understood they started to resist.
>
> Dans (danish people) knew who are germans they resisted them from the
> beginning.
>
> And my grand mother understood it before her friend.
> She (Betta) was hypnotized.
>
> Until I did not hear that story,
> I could not believe why so many people walked to Baba's Iar
> and did not try to hide.
>
> Time after time I go near that place.
> Before I thought happily - how many communists was killed there,
> with aging I start to think about people.
>
> But communists, I guess, was dragged there, jews walked with hope.
>
> Not far from there is very high tower with antennas which serves
> television.
> Including 60 KiloWatt of fooling of this regime.
> Which painted ones how good for us to get close to arabic countries,
> where instead of word "corruption" uses words "good relations".
>
Does this explain the whole story? I wonder.
> [skip]
>
> > > Will you feel better,
> > > if I'll collect a signs under paper where will be written that
> > > Ukrainians
> > > are sorry for killing of jews during Chmelnytski and giving away of jews
> > > during the War ?
> >
> > No need for that.
>
> ...
>
> [skip]
>
> > > > population, and protected the Jews under his control. Italians In
> > > > general
> > > > didn't cooperate with Germans on the Jewish issue.
> > >
> > > Ukrainian generals also did not cooperated with Germans in your issue.
> > >
> > > But I guess some Italians did.
> > >
> >
> > Which ones?
>
> Do you say that - no one italian did not gave away now one jew ?
>
> They hated jews because it was very popular, and did not give away them
> ?
> Impossible !!!
>
Who said they hated the Jews? Not everybody hates Jews , you know.
> [skip]
>
> > > > But tell me that , do you think that Jews fear from antisemitism is
> > > > not
> > > > justified in the light of the bloody history?
> > >
> > > A bloody history.
> > >
> > > All history is bloody !!!
> >
> > Still there is no reason to accept all evil things that happen, right?
>
> Well.
> What was so exceptional in perscution of jews comparrible with other
> nations ?
> Russian killed entire nations.
> For instance russians (however ruled by two Ukrianians) killed almost
> all
> population of north of modern russian's federation.
> The population which had no concepts of any militarism,
> they used weapon only for hunting.
> Putin's russia still crushes remains of culture of remains of that
> forkls.
> Anecdotes about them was, may be, more popular,
> in Soviet Union, than anecdotes about jews.
>
> You are not only who have such history.
> Do you recomend that nations to blame each who tell about them?
Recognizing the past is a way to reconciliation in the future.
>
> By the way, how Israel jointed Samaria and Galilea ?
>
Israel haven't joined Sameria. most of it is now part of the area
intended to
be handed over to the palestinians when a final settlment is achieved.
Regarding Galilea, there are many arabs who live there in their
vilages.
Anyway you cannot even start to compare the number of palistinian
arabs
who were killed y Israel during the whole period of 100 years
to the number of people killed by russians or germans, nor
even the number of jews killed ny Ukrainians.
> [skip]
>
> > > But today, you have such powerful background, in face of America.
> > > You have money. You have army and (look around) nuclear weapon.
> > > And tanks which drive backward. :)
> > >
> > > What can happened with you ?
> >
> > Who knows? my crystal ball is broken...
>
> Ask for 3rd pontiff to make a new one for you. (Did you read that ? :)
Haven't heard about it but will look at google.
A crystal ball is after all an object of importance.
>
> > > And I saw one man who's father was killed during 6 days war.
> > > What would you tell him ?
> >
> > I'd tell him that in Israel Jews are not subject to the mercy
> > of our enemies, and Jews defend themselves , for whatever it costs.
>
> Did they attack Israel before 1968 ?
At 1948 from the beginnig of its existance.
Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq....
Half of the people that died in the wars of Israel died in the war of
independence in 1948-1949.
Later on there was a Suez operation in which israel cooperated with
France and
Britain to help them conquer back the Suez Cannal from egypt
But then US and USSR intervened by diplomacy and put an nd to it.
in the 50's also arab insugents started infiltrating israel and
attacking and killing civilans, a phenomenum that continued during
early 60's.
In 1964 the PLO was established and in its charter the destruction
of the state of Israel, with the backing of the arab leage - the
organization
of arab states.
In the 60's arab states esp. Egypt and syria accured a lot of military
equipment. seemingly preparing themselves to war with Israel.
Need I add more?
>
> [skip]
>
> > > Look at:
> > > Babylon, Persian Empire, Rome, France, Dania, England, Russia, and now
> > > United States.
> > >
> > And Jews are no power to par with those powers.
>
> Why ?
> You are smart, strong and powerful nation.
> Where the guaranty that someday you will not try to extend you power in
> violent way?
12-15 million Jews across all over the world! 6 million of them in
Israel,
Is this what you call a powerful nation? Even if the Jews are so
smart as you say, Jews cannot do much.
>
> We are too stupid, at the moment.
>
> I saw in one documental movie expression of one jewish man who told:
> "We must extend our borders into desert." (To get more water.)
> "the desert" means some of arabian countries.
> Was he a lunatic (crazy) ?
What documentary movie? There is no water in the dessert, BTW.
>
>
> >
> > > With the 6-days war you crushed everything.
> > > Such wording as "fair war" confuse europeans.
> > >
> > The Arab leader Nazzer who united and galvanized the Arab
> > world when bragged he would crush Israel in 48 hours. Israel fought
> > for it's life.
>
> Oops?
>
> How they can do it?
> They had even no weapon.
They were aremed to their teeths with brand new soviet weapons.
> Syrian, for instance, was armed with medieval knifes.
Are you dreaming or what?
>
> If they was strong enough to crush Israel,
> why Israel overcame them so fast ?
>
The strategy of war is learned even today in military schools.
Key were surprise and attack of enemy militatry by air force.
Their moral fell down very quickley, so they lost the battle.
>
>
> >
> > > Your usability to make a peace with palestinians,
> > > also make people to irrespect you.
> >
> > Sure.
>
> Sorry I meant not "usability", but "inability".
>
> [skip]
>
> >
> > Believe it or not, but Israel was ready to peace with Palestinians,
> > but couldn't meet their two demands - to give up Jerusalem and let
> > millions
> > of Palestiians refugees and their families to return to their homes in
> > Israel.
> > These homes do not exist anymoe, the modern Israel was built upon
> > their ruins.
>
> I thought a lot why (?) why (?) why (?) Arafat was tricking?
> What did he want ?
> Where is the logic ?
>
> Only what I could invent that he scare that with time Israel will
> squeeze Palestine.
> (Came on mind that phrase: "extend the border to the desert".)
>
Which I don't know from where you are taking.
No, I don't think Arafat was tricking Israel so much,
it were the Israely who tricked themselve to believe
that Arafat would settle for less, but actually didn't ask him
until a very late stage what does he actually want.
> And seams you agreed to divide Jerusalem.
Eventually yes, but it wasn't enough.
>
> > > Such word as "revenge action" sounds very dissonant.
> >
> > Do you mean killing militants ? these are no revenge actions but
> > pure self defence against poeple who plan and prepare attacks against
> > Israel.
>
> TV each time says "vidplatna actia" or "actia pomsti" ("revenge
> actions").
So?
>
> >
> > >
> > > Don't you see that you are looking like violator?
> > >
> >
> > I'd rather look as a viloator and defend myself then be killed.
> > This is why the state of Israel was established.
>
> [skip]
>
> > > Some articles that Palestine was unpopulated before jews came here,
> > > also sound unclear.
> > >
> >
> > And if it was populated then what?
>
> They have a law for that ground at least for half of it.
> You came from Europe and America on the ground which was populated.
Correction, Jews came from all over the world.
Some came from europe, others came from arab countries.
Some Jews came from India, others from Africa.
Arabs also came to Palestine from neighbouring arab countries,
from Syria Egipt and other places. There are also
some that came from southern russia 200 years ago.
But you hit the point, the dispute between the Arabs and Israel
is over land.
Brief history:
Jews and arabs lived in the land of Israel/Palestine for centuries
under the control of Turks.
In 1917 Lord Balfur on behalf of the british government
promised to the Zionists to support the establishment of home for Jews
in the land of Israel, when britain and france took control
of this area from the collapsing Turkish empire.
Arabs had objected the coming of Jews to Israel
from the 20's, when there was a British mandate over Palestine.
The UN had decided in 1947 to split the land and give
some of it the the Jews to let them establish a state of their own
on their part. The arabs had not accepted it and started a violent
campain
to uprooot Jewish presence in Israel, while extreme Jewish
organizations
have used terrorist methods against brits and arabs in retaliation.
Eventually the Jews declared an independent state at 1948
and then a war waged in Israel waged here. During the war
some 700,000 arabs run away from their homes.
At the beginnig arab states had planned to divide the area
on which Jews lived and have part for Egypt, part for Jordan and part
for Syria, but later on with so many refugees the palestinian
nationality
was born. Even today prominant palestinian leaders don't see the
establishment
of palestinian state as the #1 cause. Some like Azmi Bshara see
themsellves
comfortable to be part of greater Syrian state for instance.
the #1 cause is still the fight over land.
>
> Turkey was Christian's less than 1000 years ago.
> Should we capture Turkey ?
What for? Turkey wants to be conquered by (or rather be part of) the
EU,
but europeans don't want that.
>
> And finally, ain't Palestinians offsprings of ancient jews?
Some of them, who knows?
>
>
> > > Words "we brought democracy for them" convince much better,
> > > until the next "revenge action".
> >
> > We are not here to benefit the palestinians, let them
> > handle their own business in their own ways.
>
> But you did it.
We had given them that in the happy days of Oslo the have their
own government, run by Arafat.
>
> >
> > >
> > > Also story of Mordéhay makes people to hate your kind of democracy.
> > > Scientists feels respectable for their creations.
> > > Even Nilce Baur passed information about Manhattan Project to Soviet
> > > Union,
> > > I guess, to prevent a nuclear war.
> > > You must understand, the scientists of the World are solidar folk.
> >
> > You are probably talking about Va'anunu who supposedly exposed
> > the secrets of Israel's atomic project. Well , he broke the law and
> > gave away state serets and he was punished accordingly. I think he
> > would have been executed if he was in Ukraine.
> > BTW, two scientists were excecuted in the US for giving the Soviets
> > the nuclear secrets of US.
> >
> > But you are welcomed to hate as much as you like.
> >
>
> Thank you.
>
> I think you also may hate as you much.
Am I? I don't think so.
>
> Well I don't know how to call him correctly.
> But he did not pass any technical or scientistical information, as that
> couple.
> He just told that Israel works at nuclear weapon.
> He did not help, say China, or anybody else to create a weapon.
> It only drop political shade on Israel.
>
Whatever it may be, he revealed a secret he was not authorized to talk
about.
So he got for what he did. Please let our business without your
interference
as you preach.
>
> > > > Antisemitism is evident, here on the net. I do not have to go so far
> > > > to find it, even in your posts, parhaps unconscious, but it is
> > > > still there.
> > >
> > > Kill me.
> > >
> > > Best wishes.
> > >
> > > --Michaelo
> > >
> >
> > Why should do such a thing?
>
> There are reasons.
> For instance, for sharing anti-Semite's ideas.
>
> Bye.
Why sould I give you that pleasure ? ;-)
Oh, you can live on.
>
> --Michaelo
>
> P.S. I also should express my condolence (regret) about death of members
> of your family.
> I didn't it before, because I was afraid that you'd get them devious
> (not real).
>
That's OK Michaelo.
Regards,
-----
YOELK
>
> [skip]
Michaelo
>
> Michaelo <mich...@ukr.net> wrote in message news:<408DB746...@ukr.net>...
> > YOELK wrote:
> >
> > [skip]
> >
> > > Oh, there wer incidents between the pilgrim Jews and local Ukrainians.
> > > I'd say it possible that locals had made some remarks and tried to
> > > intimidate
> > > Jews, and Jews just just left without paying.
> > >
> >
> > They showed interview with different people:
> > inhabitants, bus driver.
> >
> > It really looked as pilgrims hate them.
>
> As I said before, it may be only part of the story...
> The Pligrim Jews parhaps responded to insults and attempts of
> intimidation
> by Ukrainians. Did the TV program interviewed also Jewish pilgrims?
>
I thought they refused.
But they did it after few years. (After action of UNSO.)
One of pilgrim told that they have no ANY pretense to Ukrainian.
He also told about ... toilet.
I think Ukrainian jewish community, "turned their brains on a right
place" (cured them).
And yes I framed up (manipulated with facts).
Relation between jews and Ukrainians
do not reflect treatment that pilgrims to Ukrainians.
But I did not want to tell that friend of my mother told me that they do
not love Ukrainians.
Finally a lot of jews supported Ukrainians in our fight for
independence.
But they was not able to build our state and renew nation instead of us.
There was a lot of comical situations.
And during 6-day war soviets jews really scared.
The friend of my mother told her that she (friend) hid her kid in
Ukrainian village.
Regarding pilgrims there is one big problem
their Synagogue in Uman is not complete,
the law prohibit to enter incomplete or emergency building.
Fortunately government looks "trough fingers" (don't pay attention) on
it.
Reformist's Synagogue in Charcov also incomplete.
By the way, each year they burn american flag.
> >
> > But did you ever was in Ukrainian village or small town.
> > Just example in just reconstructed station Iaresky
> > at the reel way between Keive and Poltava
> > is a toilet. It's a small box with hole in a flour
> > there is such smell that, I guess, you never felt.
> >
> > In the station is a hall for waiting of train.
> > But it's always locked (to keep it in good condition).
> > Should I continue ?
> >
>
> So you say that the Jews are responsible for a smell in the toilet?
No.
You did not understand me.
> Oh, Please continue, what other attrocities do Jews in Ukraine?
> It is definitely a good entertainment for me.
>
> > I do not surprised that people who lived in Israel got in ukrainian
> > small town
> > start to hate ukrainians.
>
> I completely lost you here. Did you mean to say
> "...in small towns start hating Jews"? But they always did...
I meant such:
There are horrible conditions in Ukrainian villages and small town.
Pilgrims come from developed countries
The person who came from Israel to small Ukrainian town,
start to hate that town, Ukrainian, and their life style.
Did I write clear, this time ?
Inhabitants of Ukrainian villages and small towns mostly hate not jews.
Guess whom they hate ???
They hate people from cities.
It's such local antiglobalism.
If you don't speak with their pronunciation
it's dangerous for you to move even ~30 km from Keive!
And no difference you are Ukrainian, Russian or Jew.
>
> >
> > Any way, you realized (agreed) that you hate us.
>
> For most Jews Ukraine belongs to the past, and there is
> definitely an anger towards Ukrainians, but why should that bother
> you?
I write an article about relations between ukrainians and jews.
I though that hating of jews in Ukraine are forces artificially (by
somebody).
> Anyway I do not know much about the pilgrims atttude towards Ukrain,
> but as I told you those pilgrims are not my cup of tea either.
>
OK.
Forget about them.
They came here, leave money, and get back.
And they do it each year.
If there was more of them, we'd have more shecels, dollars, and euros.
(However you can pay in Ukraine only in national currency,
but its freely changed in number of exchange points.
Buy the way,
if you someday visit Ukraine or Russia, never change all your money in
air port
or train station! They have dragon's course.
Same with taxi, in 200 miters from such place taxi may costs twice
cheaper.
)
> >
> > [skip]
> >
> > > > But during parliaments elections I ah ... voted for them,
> > > > you must understand me, it was a sigh of protest,
> > > > because I hate all of candidates and parties (including UNSO).
> > > > Any way I knew that they have no chances. :)
> > > > They got about 20,000 of votes from about 20,000,000 voted people.
> > >
> > > Protest against what exactly?
> >
> > Against inability to choice.
> > UNSO, as I though, was only non conformist's force
> > which demonstratively fought against government.
>
> So "beat the Jews" is the answer to your problems? Hmm. Interseting...
For the moment I forgot about it.
Finally they did not really beat them,
however they beated a lot of russian, cops, ect..
>
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > Do you remember "election of Sharon" ?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Sure, but I don't recall any Jewish suicide bombers blowing
> > > in Ukrainian Busses killing inocent cotizens.
> >
> > Did you vote that time ?
>
> Nope. I have desided to abstain.
That's it.
Next time, I'll probably also vote for "last candidate" (no one),
or did not vote at all.
>
> >
> > >
> > > > > BTW, I personally find that such pilgrimage is tasteless, but I
> > > > > won't force my view on those followers.
> > > >
> > > > I such understand it's mix of judaism and oriental (far eastern)
> > > > philosophy.
> > >
> > > You can say so. It is sort of more spiritual Judaism rooted
> > > in Medival Jewish mysticism.
> >
> > [skip]
> >
> > > > > ? ? killed thousands and thousands of Jews?
> > > > > ?
> > > > > ? I guess it's not a main reason.
> > > > >
> > > > > No? How do you know that?
> > > >
> > > > I guess they forgot it.
> > > > They hate us because we are stupid.
> > >
> > > Jews don't forget so easily.
> >
> > So you remember what was 300 years ago ?
>
> And what happenned 2000 years ago as well.
> But tell me that, Michaelo , if Ukrainians remember Chmielistski
> after 300 years , why wouldn't the Jews remember him?
> But if antismitism is stupidity ...
May be yes, or may be not.
I'm afraid any powerful nation, especially Russians and Americans.
And since some time also Ukrainians.
So, why don't you hate Italians ?
They crushed Israel in 0070, isn't it ?
But don't say that Romes are not Italians.
>
> >
> > [skip]
> >
> > > > But Petlura, and Bandéra was not anti-Semites.
> >
> > [skip]
> >
> > >
> > > It is said that during Petlura time between 1919-1920
> > > 60,000 Jews were murdered. Parhaps Petlura objected it or promoted it,
> > > anyway the Ukrainians did it, didn't they?
> >
> > Probably they killed.
> > But I don't think that so many.
>
> How many then, would you say?
> And if it was 20,000 Jews murdered, would it be much different for
> you,
> would you feel more comfortable?
>
I think it was few 1000s.
It was a difficult time.
People killed each other.
I do not think that it was ethnocide.
Jews get in bad place and in bad time, other people too.
> >
> > And in that time was killed a lot of other people by several people.
> >
> > >
> > > > Russian widely used such technology,
> > > > they selected a people with faces seamed Ukrainians
> > > > tough them to speak Ukrainian with all especiality,
> > > > wore in Uniform of first army of Petlura, then UPA.
> > > > Then sent to make several military crimes,
> > > > to tune public mind.
> > > >
> > > > Also they widely used provocateurs.
> > > >
> > > > And last one Ukrainian anti-Semitism.
> > > > Yes, it grows last time.
> > > >
> > > > But why ?
> > > > I quoted an article.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I don't believe Russia had staged the wole thing.
> > >
> >
> > Is "wole thing" = "entire piece" ?
> My typo, should have been "whole thing".
>
> >
> > Surely no.
> > But they created a picture.
> > And they "trew first stones".
>
> Blaming others on your faults, Michaelo, is a bad habit.
> Then you complain you have no democracy, no freedom, etc....
> Until you won't acknowledge that something is broken ,
> how can you fix it?
>
Should I kill myself?
So, I'm trying. :)
Ukrainians are not guilty in everything what you complain us.
Finally, if we killed all of Jewish people, why they are still here?
Not every ukrainian killed not every jew!
There was no total murder of jews in Ukraine by ukrainians,
as it may be concluded from your words.
> >
> > [skip]
> >
> > > > Even Israel has "workers party".
> > > > Communist or pro- communistic parties exist in several countries.
> > >
> > > Israels workers party or to be more precise israels Labor party
> > > has very little to do with communism.
> > > There is a cummunist party in Israel, staffed mainly with arabs.
> >
> > Ah.
> >
> > [skip]
> >
> > > > But as I know jews ran communism and socialism.
> > >
> > > Sure, like hell!
> > > you can check and find that many Ukrainians participated in the
> > > Soviet Communist party and had much higher positions than Jews.
> >
> > Well, Founder of socialist's and communist's philosophy,
> > Karl Marks (Levy Mordehay) probably was ukrainian.
> > Second figure in Soviet Union, Trotski (Leiba Bronstein) was also
> > ukrainian.
> > There no authentic information but there are rumors which say that
> > Lenin was also jewish.
>
> There are many urban kegends around.
> But tell me please Michaelo, would you say that Jews run christianity
> as well?
> After all, Jesus was a Jew, so all his apostles and all the members of
> the
> early church, and even Paul and Peter were Jews.
>
No they was Ukrainians. :)
There is the story.
In bunker (underground house) of ukrainian insurgences
came educated man. He looked at tired eh ... soldiers (we both don't
like word "militia"),
And prompted (started to talk) to one soldier who has been cleaning his
automatic gun:
- Do you know that Jesus was a jew.
His vis-a-vie (man to who he spoke) silently jointed
the magazine reloaded and aimed it on prompter,
other people interrupted him, and handled (took up) his gun.
But after incident, the people who heard it came to the priest assistant
and asked:
- Did Jesus be really jewish ?
- No, he replayed, he just was from jewish family.
...
Since it they started to listen stories of the Bible.
Well.
Jews did too much good.
But people are people.
Not all jews are good not all ukrainians are bad.
That's what I want to say.
> >
> > Why Trotski did not stop first hunger in Ukraine in 1920 ?
> > He had enough influence.
>
> Do you mean the hunger during the war between the Wite and Red armies?
> Oh, why would you expect him to do that? He was the chief of the Red
> Army... Ukrain was strategic to the stablishment of the Soviet Union
> at these days. It was the main supplier of grain for the rest of
> Russia
> even in the days of the Czars.
> But he didn't fought this war as a Jew but as a leader in the
> Communist
> revolution.
Bronstein did not represent jewish community. Even more they had no
nationality.
But from the other hand Ukrainians who killed jews also may be treated
as not Ukrainians.
And that hunger was when Ukraine was already fallen.
Bolsheviks (major communist's stream / fraction)
wished to crush our will (sensation of freedom).
Same they did with people who lived near river Volga in Russia.
> >
> > So.
> > I want to say left ideology was grew by Jews.
> >
>
> And so was christianity, at its beginning.
> Sorry Michaelo, I don't see any point here.
>
You said that communism is no jewish at all.
> > Finally socialism begins in jewish way of thinking.
> > Synagogues collected money and helped people who need it.
> > They gave flats for instance.
>
> You are a bit confused. In most human societies there is the concept
> of helping each other, and helping the weak and poor..
> I won't give the creadit for THIS idea to judaism.
> Churches did the same things and so mosques.
> But thanks anyway.
>
It was started before christianity, and islam.
So do you agree that left ideology came from jews ?
> >
> > Communism is invention of french naïve idiots,
> > but only Marx made reliable conception of it.
> > As we can see it was suicidal.
> >
>
> See what I have written about Jews and the foundation of christian
> church.
...
>
> > Also, I heard on TV (same channel), that Stalin was popular figure
> > in israelian autonomy of Palestine.
>
> Stalin was popular in many places where there was tendency to
> socialism and communism. Socialism/communism dominated the Jewish
> Zionist
> settlement in Palestine since 1900 until late 60's. But the communists
> didn't return "love". Instead they have sent most Zionist activists to
> Siberia,
> eliminating the Zionist movement in the Soviet Union.
> The Communists had their original solution to the "Jewish problem",
> they suggetted to send all jews to autonomous district somewhere in
> central
> Asia. After war Communist closed all Jewish schools and forbidden the
> teaching
> of Yiddish wich was considered in Soviet union national language of
> Jews
> and stopped recognizing them as a nation.
>
> It took some years until Jews in Israel understood what is going on,
> when many Jewish intellectuals were sent to Siberia or executed.
> Did you hear anything about the doctors trial, where Stalin accused
> Jewish doctors that they are trying to poison him?
>
> Anyway at the end of the Stalin Era The socialist Jews at Israel were
> already disillusioned about Stalin.
>
So.
Do you realize that jews again allowed to fool themselves ?
Do you agree that jews, at least did not resist communist in certain
period ?
And "case of doctors" was not anti-Semitic.
If Stahlin hated jews they did not not served him as doctors.
NKVD killed a lot of servants (waiters, mistresses) of Stahlin.
They killed doctors because he was afraid about his health.
He thought is he killed doctors it will cancel their conclusions
(that what did they say about his health).
There is good anecdote:
In bar:
- Hi, why didn't you get a beer?
- My doctor prohibited me to get any alcohol.
- Oh, I see.
Next day:
- Why do you drink beer, since you doctor prohibit you.
- I bribed him, and allowed me.
> >
> > 1. Not all jews are so sweet.
> > 2. So, your nation allow to fool themselves again.
> >
>
> Sure, but what does that add to the substance of the issue?
> Are Jews better ar superior or other nations?
> The only people who claim it are antisemites and Jewish lunatics,
> yet we cannot ignore the way history went, and see
> what various nations did to Jews.
Well, finally.
O.K.
I think,
since you left with no land,
and was a guest of other nations (including Ukrainians),
a lot of times you got in bad places in bad time.
In old Europe a lot of tribes was destroyed completely,
and it's a miracle that you remained alive (and remind us what was
happened).
That was not just anti-Semitism that was a way of thinking of Europeans.
By the way, as I know, from the beginning word "anti-Semitism"
was used regarding the muslims, who owned half of Spain.
>
> > [skip]
> >
> > > >
> > > > They trusted fascists!
> > > > Even jews hoped for fascists!
> > >
> > > So what? They did not understand what was coming upon their heads,
> > > it came all very quickly, and when they understood it was too late.
> >
> > ukrainians ALSO did not understand what is coming upon their heads,
> > since they understood they started to resist.
> >
> > Dans (danish people) knew who are germans they resisted them from the
> > beginning.
> >
> > And my grand mother understood it before her friend.
> > She (Betta) was hypnotized.
> >
> > Until I did not hear that story,
> > I could not believe why so many people walked to Baba's Iar
> > and did not try to hide.
> >
> > Time after time I go near that place.
> > Before I thought happily - how many communists was killed there,
> > with aging I start to think about people.
> >
> > But communists, I guess, was dragged there, jews walked with hope.
> >
> > Not far from there is very high tower with antennas which serves
> > television.
> > Including 60 KiloWatt of fooling of this regime.
> > Which painted ones how good for us to get close to arabic countries,
> > where instead of word "corruption" uses words "good relations".
> >
>
> Does this explain the whole story? I wonder.
Ukrainians gave away jews because they was victims.
Because, they had no choice.
Some of them covered jews, and lived in fear.
Other gave away because of different reasons.
Finally, germans killed much ukrainians then jews.
>
> > [skip]
> >
> > > > Will you feel better,
> > > > if I'll collect a signs under paper where will be written that
> > > > Ukrainians
> > > > are sorry for killing of jews during Chmelnytski and giving away of jews
> > > > during the War ?
> > >
> > > No need for that.
> >
> > ...
> >
> > [skip]
> >
> > > > > population, and protected the Jews under his control. Italians In
> > > > > general
> > > > > didn't cooperate with Germans on the Jewish issue.
> > > >
> > > > Ukrainian generals also did not cooperated with Germans in your issue.
> > > >
> > > > But I guess some Italians did.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Which ones?
> >
> > Do you say that - no one italian did not gave away now one jew ?
> >
> > They hated jews because it was very popular, and did not give away them
> > ?
> > Impossible !!!
> >
>
> Who said they hated the Jews? Not everybody hates Jews , you know.
Oh, they persecuted jews with good intends.
>
> > [skip]
> >
> > > > > But tell me that , do you think that Jews fear from antisemitism is
> > > > > not
> > > > > justified in the light of the bloody history?
> > > >
> > > > A bloody history.
> > > >
> > > > All history is bloody !!!
> > >
> > > Still there is no reason to accept all evil things that happen, right?
> >
> > Well.
> > What was so exceptional in perscution of jews comparrible with other
> > nations ?
> > Russian killed entire nations.
> > For instance russians (however ruled by two Ukrianians) killed almost
> > all
> > population of north of modern russian's federation.
> > The population which had no concepts of any militarism,
> > they used weapon only for hunting.
> > Putin's russia still crushes remains of culture of remains of that
> > forkls.
> > Anecdotes about them was, may be, more popular,
> > in Soviet Union, than anecdotes about jews.
> >
> > You are not only who have such history.
> > Do you recomend that nations to blame each who tell about them?
>
> Recognizing the past is a way to reconciliation in the future.
But what would you do on the place of Chukchas, Eskimoses, Nenetses ?
They also are victims.
Or may be you want to say that hating of any nation is remain of past.
If so why do you hate us ?
Why did you forgot all what other nations did to you ?
>
> >
> > By the way, how Israel jointed Samaria and Galilea ?
> >
>
> Israel haven't joined Sameria. most of it is now part of the area
> intended to
> be handed over to the palestinians when a final settlment is achieved.
>
> Regarding Galilea, there are many arabs who live there in their
> vilages.
I mean not in modern history but in ancient world.
When you was not guest of other nation,
wasn't you also aggressive as most of kingdoms of that time.
> Anyway you cannot even start to compare the number of palistinian
> arabs
> who were killed y Israel during the whole period of 100 years
> to the number of people killed by russians or germans, nor
> even the number of jews killed ny Ukrainians.
>
> > [skip]
> >
> > > > But today, you have such powerful background, in face of America.
> > > > You have money. You have army and (look around) nuclear weapon.
> > > > And tanks which drive backward. :)
> > > >
> > > > What can happened with you ?
> > >
> > > Who knows? my crystal ball is broken...
> >
> > Ask for 3rd pontiff to make a new one for you. (Did you read that ? :)
> Haven't heard about it but will look at google.
I quoted an article: where was going that 3rd pontiff of Judea
who was familiar with magic, created magic spear.
And everybody who owned that spear ruled the world.
Or may be, you really practice with magic, and create fetishes?
> A crystal ball is after all an object of importance.
>
It's Celts looked in glass,
Slavians looked in water.
> >
> > > > And I saw one man who's father was killed during 6 days war.
> > > > What would you tell him ?
> > >
> > > I'd tell him that in Israel Jews are not subject to the mercy
> > > of our enemies, and Jews defend themselves , for whatever it costs.
> >
> > Did they attack Israel before 1968 ?
>
> At 1948 from the beginnig of its existance.
> Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq....
>
> Half of the people that died in the wars of Israel died in the war of
> independence in 1948-1949.
>
> Later on there was a Suez operation in which israel cooperated with
> France and
> Britain to help them conquer back the Suez Cannal from egypt
> But then US and USSR intervened by diplomacy and put an nd to it.
>
> in the 50's also arab insugents started infiltrating israel and
> attacking and killing civilans, a phenomenum that continued during
> early 60's.
> In 1964 the PLO was established and in its charter the destruction
> of the state of Israel, with the backing of the arab leage - the
> organization
> of arab states.
>
> In the 60's arab states esp. Egypt and syria accured a lot of military
> equipment. seemingly preparing themselves to war with Israel.
>
> Need I add more?
>
O.K. It's enough.
> >
> > [skip]
> >
> > > > Look at:
> > > > Babylon, Persian Empire, Rome, France, Dania, England, Russia, and now
> > > > United States.
> > > >
> > > And Jews are no power to par with those powers.
> >
> > Why ?
> > You are smart, strong and powerful nation.
> > Where the guaranty that someday you will not try to extend you power in
> > violent way?
>
> 12-15 million Jews across all over the world! 6 million of them in
> Israel,
> Is this what you call a powerful nation? Even if the Jews are so
> smart as you say, Jews cannot do much.
>
But you did too much!
Swiss is even smaller nation, but what powerful they are.
And if you not smart, why in Ukraine percent of people with high
education
higher between jews then between Ukrainians ?
At least it means or you are smarter then Ukrainians or have more power.
> >
> > We are too stupid, at the moment.
> >
> > I saw in one documental movie expression of one jewish man who told:
> > "We must extend our borders into desert." (To get more water.)
> > "the desert" means some of arabian countries.
> > Was he a lunatic (crazy) ?
>
> What documentary movie? There is no water in the dessert, BTW.
No underground water?
So where do you take it, but Jordan river ?
It was a movie about water in the world, and it meaning for people.
About 20 minutes of movie was dedicated Israel.
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > With the 6-days war you crushed everything.
> > > > Such wording as "fair war" confuse europeans.
> > > >
> > > The Arab leader Nazzer who united and galvanized the Arab
> > > world when bragged he would crush Israel in 48 hours. Israel fought
> > > for it's life.
> >
> > Oops?
> >
> > How they can do it?
> > They had even no weapon.
>
> They were aremed to their teeths with brand new soviet weapons.
>
> > Syrian, for instance, was armed with medieval knifes.
>
> Are you dreaming or what?
>
> >
> > If they was strong enough to crush Israel,
> > why Israel overcame them so fast ?
> >
>
> The strategy of war is learned even today in military schools.
> Key were surprise and attack of enemy militatry by air force.
> Their moral fell down very quickley, so they lost the battle.
>
So.
It seams to me clear.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > Your usability to make a peace with palestinians,
> > > > also make people to irrespect you.
> > >
> > > Sure.
> >
> > Sorry I meant not "usability", but "inability".
> >
> > [skip]
> >
> > >
> > > Believe it or not, but Israel was ready to peace with Palestinians,
> > > but couldn't meet their two demands - to give up Jerusalem and let
> > > millions
> > > of Palestiians refugees and their families to return to their homes in
> > > Israel.
> > > These homes do not exist anymoe, the modern Israel was built upon
> > > their ruins.
> >
> > I thought a lot why (?) why (?) why (?) Arafat was tricking?
> > What did he want ?
> > Where is the logic ?
> >
> > Only what I could invent that he scare that with time Israel will
> > squeeze Palestine.
> > (Came on mind that phrase: "extend the border to the desert".)
> >
>
> Which I don't know from where you are taking.
>
> No, I don't think Arafat was tricking Israel so much,
> it were the Israely who tricked themselve to believe
> that Arafat would settle for less, but actually didn't ask him
> until a very late stage what does he actually want.
>
So, you want to say that Arabs will not agree not for half,
not for bigger half,
not for 3/4 of land even with whole Jerusalem,
and they will never relax until Israel exist ?
But why Its'hack Rabbin was killed ?
> > And seams you agreed to divide Jerusalem.
>
> Eventually yes, but it wasn't enough.
>
Yes. I knew it.
> >
> > > > Such word as "revenge action" sounds very dissonant.
> > >
> > > Do you mean killing militants ? these are no revenge actions but
> > > pure self defence against poeple who plan and prepare attacks against
> > > Israel.
> >
> > TV each time says "vidplatna actia" or "actia pomsti" ("revenge
> > actions").
>
> So?
So.
Will you revenge us ?
As you told you did not forget so fast.
Regarding palestinians from Ukraine
it looks such: you have captured their land,
and are killing them because they want to return it.
Well.
O.K.
Leave the Englishmen, let them to release Walster, Scotia, Wales, and
few small
nation. Some of them count about few 100s of persons,
but they prefer to be in Irish Republic then in United Kingdom,
however Sinn Fein threw them.
So.
Do you agree
that palestinians may have they land rule their fate,
learn their language,
develop their culture (such as they have), follow their religion,
and also have a right for some water ?
> >
> > Turkey was Christian's less than 1000 years ago.
> > Should we capture Turkey ?
>
> What for? Turkey wants to be conquered by (or rather be part of) the
> EU,
> but europeans don't want that.
>
Kha-ha-ha.
:)
Oh, you mate me. :)
:))))
But Anatolia (the land in Turkey) it's armenian.
> >
> > And finally, ain't Palestinians offsprings of ancient jews?
>
> Some of them, who knows?
> >
> >
> > > > Words "we brought democracy for them" convince much better,
> > > > until the next "revenge action".
> > >
> > > We are not here to benefit the palestinians, let them
> > > handle their own business in their own ways.
> >
> > But you did it.
>
> We had given them that in the happy days of Oslo the have their
> own government, run by Arafat.
>
Is "... Oslo the have ..." means "also they have" ?
Oslo is a capital of Norway (Monarchy, oil, fishing, chemistry,
and machin building, high taxes, high social protection).
Well.
I think they understand they are worst then you,
and feel themselves lost, they think its their land.
And they want to push you out to have no with whom compare.
Or what the hell they want ?
O.K.
Since you live on the Moon, don't tell that it's an anti-Semitism in
Ukraine.
And I told why did he passed that information.
And science is not national business.
> >
> > > > > Antisemitism is evident, here on the net. I do not have to go so far
> > > > > to find it, even in your posts, parhaps unconscious, but it is
> > > > > still there.
> > > >
> > > > Kill me.
> > > >
> > > > Best wishes.
> > > >
> > > > --Michaelo
> > > >
> > >
> > > Why should do such a thing?
> >
> > There are reasons.
> > For instance, for sharing anti-Semite's ideas.
> >
> > Bye.
>
> Why sould I give you that pleasure ? ;-)
> Oh, you can live on.
:)
Why?
Because I hate everything and everybody including ukrainians.
I see no future for me.
I'm angry and dragged (not drugged).
Since Israel did not kill me, I'll try in other place.
Michaelo
>
> "Michaelo" <mich...@ukr.net> wrote in message
> news:408D85C0...@ukr.net...
> > BTov wrote:
> > >
> > > "Susan Cohen" <fla...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:<o8Gic.35358$Aq.2...@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>...
> > > > "Kevin Brook" <kuz...@lycos.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:eb613152.04042...@posting.google.com...
> > > > >
> > > > > Kevin Alan Brook, "The Origins of East European Jews," in Russian
> > > > > History/Histoire Russe, vol. 30, no. 1-2 (Spring-Summer 2003), pages
> > > > > 1-22.
> > > >
> > > > If the theory of this book is that all or most European Jews are the
> > > > descendents of the Khazars, I would defintiely suggest Michealo get
> another
> > > > source.
> > > >
> > > > Susan
> > >
> > > your an irish shikse
> >
> > Cohen
> > Is jewish last name.
>
> Yes, it is.
> But I am also a convert.
> If you would like me to e-mail you,
My eMail is in header of this message.
You are welcomed.
Unfortunately I not always can replay on eMail, bacause of .. technical
reason.
Markku Grönroos
"Michaelo" <mich...@ukr.net> wrote in message
news:408F17C7...@ukr.net...
YOELK
by the arab defeat, so they started a vicious propaaganda against
Israel.
That started a surge of anti-semitic sentiment these days.
I was only a small boy at these days, living in Poland,
guess how I was appaled when I was told that we are Jews and we are
going to Israel.
Yes, now I understand.
But you overestimate the standards of living in Israel.
>
> Inhabitants of Ukrainian villages and small towns mostly hate not jews.
> Guess whom they hate ???
>
> They hate people from cities.
> It's such local antiglobalism.
>
> If you don't speak with their pronunciation
> it's dangerous for you to move even ~30 km from Keive!
>
> And no difference you are Ukrainian, Russian or Jew.
>
Xenophobia.
>
> >
> > >
> > > Any way, you realized (agreed) that you hate us.
> >
> > For most Jews Ukraine belongs to the past, and there is
> > definitely an anger towards Ukrainians, but why should that bother
> > you?
>
> I write an article about relations between ukrainians and jews.
> I though that hating of jews in Ukraine are forces artificially (by
> somebody).
>
> > Anyway I do not know much about the pilgrims atttude towards Ukrain,
> > but as I told you those pilgrims are not my cup of tea either.
> >
>
> OK.
> Forget about them.
>
> They came here, leave money, and get back.
> And they do it each year.
>
> If there was more of them, we'd have more shecels, dollars, and euros.
> (However you can pay in Ukraine only in national currency,
> but its freely changed in number of exchange points.
> Buy the way,
> if you someday visit Ukraine or Russia, never change all your money in
> air port
> or train station! They have dragon's course.
> Same with taxi, in 200 miters from such place taxi may costs twice
> cheaper.
> )
It used to be so in Israel as well, until some years ago the
government
decided to give up control of the local currency exchange rate.
Guess what , the walls didn't fell down. I did a lot of good to
the economy of Israel.
>
> > >
> > > [skip]
> > >
> > > > > But during parliaments elections I ah ... voted for them,
> > > > > you must understand me, it was a sigh of protest,
> > > > > because I hate all of candidates and parties (including UNSO).
> > > > > Any way I knew that they have no chances. :)
> > > > > They got about 20,000 of votes from about 20,000,000 voted people.
> > > >
> > > > Protest against what exactly?
> > >
> > > Against inability to choice.
> > > UNSO, as I though, was only non conformist's force
> > > which demonstratively fought against government.
> >
> > So "beat the Jews" is the answer to your problems? Hmm. Interseting...
>
> For the moment I forgot about it.
> Finally they did not really beat them,
> however they beated a lot of russian, cops, ect..
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Do you remember "election of Sharon" ?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > Sure, but I don't recall any Jewish suicide bombers blowing
> > > > in Ukrainian Busses killing inocent cotizens.
> > >
> > > Did you vote that time ?
> >
> > Nope. I have desided to abstain.
>
> That's it.
> Next time, I'll probably also vote for "last candidate" (no one),
> or did not vote at all.
That's better, though I hope you will find someone to vote for and
not only to vote against. From my experience the negativism dominate
politics many times (not only in Ukraine); As long as it doen't
statr to run out control it's OK....
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > > BTW, I personally find that such pilgrimage is tasteless, but I
> > > > > > won't force my view on those followers.
> > > > >
> > > > > I such understand it's mix of judaism and oriental (far eastern)
> > > > > philosophy.
> > > >
> > > > You can say so. It is sort of more spiritual Judaism rooted
> > > > in Medival Jewish mysticism.
> > >
> > > [skip]
> > >
> > > > > > ? ? killed thousands and thousands of Jews?
> > > > > > ?
> > > > > > ? I guess it's not a main reason.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No? How do you know that?
> > > > >
> > > > > I guess they forgot it.
> > > > > They hate us because we are stupid.
> > > >
> > > > Jews don't forget so easily.
> > >
> > > So you remember what was 300 years ago ?
> >
> > And what happenned 2000 years ago as well.
> > But tell me that, Michaelo , if Ukrainians remember Chmielistski
> > after 300 years , why wouldn't the Jews remember him?
> > But if antismitism is stupidity ...
>
> May be yes, or may be not.
> I'm afraid any powerful nation, especially Russians and Americans.
> And since some time also Ukrainians.
>
> So, why don't you hate Italians ?
> They crushed Israel in 0070, isn't it ?
>
Actually this particular disaster is partially for Jews to blame
themselves, for having a large and very militant faction that was
determined to fight the Romes whatever the results might be ,they
hoped for some sort of divine intervention and tried to catalyze the
coming of the Jewish Messiah .
This was an exellnt setting to the story of Jesus of Nazerath.
But the real disaster came upon Jews at 130 AD ,when they tried
another bloody
revolt. The Romes this time didn't settle with destroying a major
city,
but rather destroyed most of Jewish towns and villages in the land of
Judea.
> But don't say that Romes are not Italians.
Sort of, but Rome fell under its enemies, and so many years from now.
It seems that Jews do not look at Italians as the descendents of
Romans
who destroyed Jerusalem and burnt the temple.
>
> >
> > >
> > > [skip]
> > >
> > > > > But Petlura, and Bandéra was not anti-Semites.
> > >
> > > [skip]
> > >
> > > >
> > > > It is said that during Petlura time between 1919-1920
> > > > 60,000 Jews were murdered. Parhaps Petlura objected it or promoted it,
> > > > anyway the Ukrainians did it, didn't they?
> > >
> > > Probably they killed.
> > > But I don't think that so many.
> >
> > How many then, would you say?
> > And if it was 20,000 Jews murdered, would it be much different for
> > you,
> > would you feel more comfortable?
> >
>
> I think it was few 1000s.
> It was a difficult time.
> People killed each other.
> I do not think that it was ethnocide.
> Jews get in bad place and in bad time, other people too.
>
It was not ethnocide, we cannot compare it with what started 20 years
later.
> > >
> > > And in that time was killed a lot of other people by several people.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > Russian widely used such technology,
> > > > > they selected a people with faces seamed Ukrainians
> > > > > tough them to speak Ukrainian with all especiality,
> > > > > wore in Uniform of first army of Petlura, then UPA.
> > > > > Then sent to make several military crimes,
> > > > > to tune public mind.
> > > > >
> > > > > Also they widely used provocateurs.
> > > > >
> > > > > And last one Ukrainian anti-Semitism.
> > > > > Yes, it grows last time.
> > > > >
> > > > > But why ?
> > > > > I quoted an article.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I don't believe Russia had staged the wole thing.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Is "wole thing" = "entire piece" ?
> > My typo, should have been "whole thing".
> >
> > >
> > > Surely no.
> > > But they created a picture.
> > > And they "trew first stones".
> >
> > Blaming others on your faults, Michaelo, is a bad habit.
> > Then you complain you have no democracy, no freedom, etc....
> > Until you won't acknowledge that something is broken ,
> > how can you fix it?
> >
>
> Should I kill myself?
> So, I'm trying. :)
>
Going the easy way? ;)
Now more seriusly, it is dangerous even to play with the idea of
suiceide.
Not to mention it is stupid and cowardly, and you are neither
Michaelo.
> Ukrainians are not guilty in everything what you complain us.
>
> Finally, if we killed all of Jewish people, why they are still here?
>
Ukraine still has one of the largest communities of Jews in the world
if I remmember correctly.
> Not every ukrainian killed not every jew!
> There was no total murder of jews in Ukraine by ukrainians,
> as it may be concluded from your words.
>
Of course there wasn't.
:)
>
>
> Well.
> Jews did too much good.
>
> But people are people.
> Not all jews are good not all ukrainians are bad.
> That's what I want to say.
>
> > >
> > > Why Trotski did not stop first hunger in Ukraine in 1920 ?
> > > He had enough influence.
> >
> > Do you mean the hunger during the war between the Wite and Red armies?
> > Oh, why would you expect him to do that? He was the chief of the Red
> > Army... Ukrain was strategic to the stablishment of the Soviet Union
> > at these days. It was the main supplier of grain for the rest of
> > Russia
> > even in the days of the Czars.
> > But he didn't fought this war as a Jew but as a leader in the
> > Communist
> > revolution.
>
> Bronstein did not represent jewish community. Even more they had no
> nationality.
> But from the other hand Ukrainians who killed jews also may be treated
> as not Ukrainians.
>
> And that hunger was when Ukraine was already fallen.
> Bolsheviks (major communist's stream / fraction)
> wished to crush our will (sensation of freedom).
>
> Same they did with people who lived near river Volga in Russia.
What Bolsheviks did has no justification whatsoever, no matter how
we look at it.
>
>
> > >
> > > So.
> > > I want to say left ideology was grew by Jews.
> > >
> >
> > And so was christianity, at its beginning.
> > Sorry Michaelo, I don't see any point here.
> >
>
> You said that communism is no jewish at all.
Communism is not a "Jewish" thing, definitely.
>
> > > Finally socialism begins in jewish way of thinking.
> > > Synagogues collected money and helped people who need it.
> > > They gave flats for instance.
> >
> > You are a bit confused. In most human societies there is the concept
> > of helping each other, and helping the weak and poor..
> > I won't give the creadit for THIS idea to judaism.
> > Churches did the same things and so mosques.
> > But thanks anyway.
> >
>
> It was started before christianity, and islam.
>
> So do you agree that left ideology came from jews ?
If I can resort to the bible there are several things,
for instance the story about the hebrews who were slaves in Egypt
and how they were freed by god who then punished the Egyptians for
slavery.
It goes on to the command that apear several times "thouh shall
remember
thay you were slaves in the land of Egypt..."
and goes on to some commands that prohibits slavery for life.
Then we can go to some prophets (Jeremiah for instance) who cry
against
the wroong-doings against the poor and helpless.
But then this is not really socialism. I 'd rather think socialism was
developed gradualy in western cizilization over years until we have
got
what we know today.
At least some of the Jews were fooled. Most of the admirers od Stalin
lived in a Kibbutz , a collective form of settlements, they were
communists, you know. It hurt them badly when the successors of Stalin
had declared his crimes.
> And "case of doctors" was not anti-Semitic.
> If Stahlin hated jews they did not not served him as doctors.
> NKVD killed a lot of servants (waiters, mistresses) of Stahlin.
> They killed doctors because he was afraid about his health.
> He thought is he killed doctors it will cancel their conclusions
> (that what did they say about his health).
>
Were all doctors which were executed actually Stalins personal
doctors?
Anyway, their Judaism was an issue at a time. And Many other Jewish
figures
who disappeared and executed, writers, journalists, etc...
I mean, Stalin and the regim were all wrong all the way, the doctors
trial
is one of the turning points even Stalins followers among Jews had
a second and a third thought about his way and started getting
disillusioned.
Maybe.
And I can add that Germans were also victims of Hitler and the Nazi
regime, which is true. But it is also true that many Germans followed
Hitler
as if he was their god, fighting for him and giving their life.
>
> >
> > > [skip]
> > >
> > > > > Will you feel better,
> > > > > if I'll collect a signs under paper where will be written that
> > > > > Ukrainians
> > > > > are sorry for killing of jews during Chmelnytski and giving away of jews
> > > > > during the War ?
> > > >
> > > > No need for that.
> > >
> > > ...
> > >
> > > [skip]
> > >
> > > > > > population, and protected the Jews under his control. Italians In
> > > > > > general
> > > > > > didn't cooperate with Germans on the Jewish issue.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ukrainian generals also did not cooperated with Germans in your issue.
> > > > >
> > > > > But I guess some Italians did.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Which ones?
> > >
> > > Do you say that - no one italian did not gave away now one jew ?
> > >
> > > They hated jews because it was very popular, and did not give away them
> > > ?
> > > Impossible !!!
> > >
> >
> > Who said they hated the Jews? Not everybody hates Jews , you know.
>
> Oh, they persecuted jews with good intends.
The question is to which extent were the anti-jewish laws enforced.
I wouldn't forget the history. Parhaps it is part of the Jewish
genome,
althogh I do not share the Jewish belief. And I do not forget because
what
happened in the past is a lesson for the future. History has a
tendency to
repeat itself, although we see it only after it happens (this is where
I need
the crystal ball). So having a lesson from history is the principal
thing
here and not the hate, or resent. And my lesson is that to live in
Iarael
is better then in other places. Parhaps the Jews in Ukraine disgree
with
me, but anyway..
> >
> > >
> > > By the way, how Israel jointed Samaria and Galilea ?
> > >
> >
> > Israel haven't joined Sameria. most of it is now part of the area
> > intended to
> > be handed over to the palestinians when a final settlment is achieved.
> >
> > Regarding Galilea, there are many arabs who live there in their
> > vilages.
>
> I mean not in modern history but in ancient world.
> When you was not guest of other nation,
> wasn't you also aggressive as most of kingdoms of that time.
Oh, you mean Joshua etc...
I'd consider it a myth (just like the Exodus) but it could have happen
so,
these were ancient times anyway, can we judge them by modern
standards.
>
> > Anyway you cannot even start to compare the number of palistinian
> > arabs
> > who were killed y Israel during the whole period of 100 years
> > to the number of people killed by russians or germans, nor
> > even the number of jews killed ny Ukrainians.
>
>
> >
> > > [skip]
> > >
> > > > > But today, you have such powerful background, in face of America.
> > > > > You have money. You have army and (look around) nuclear weapon.
> > > > > And tanks which drive backward. :)
> > > > >
> > > > > What can happened with you ?
> > > >
> > > > Who knows? my crystal ball is broken...
> > >
> > > Ask for 3rd pontiff to make a new one for you. (Did you read that ? :)
> > Haven't heard about it but will look at google.
>
> I quoted an article: where was going that 3rd pontiff of Judea
> who was familiar with magic, created magic spear.
> And everybody who owned that spear ruled the world.
>
> Or may be, you really practice with magic, and create fetishes?
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
magic",
Arthur C Clarke.
Technology is not so advanced yet. But anyway you can consider me as a
practicer of Alchemy, turning sand into gold, if you understand what I
mean.
This could be explained easily in sociological factors.
>
>
> > >
> > > We are too stupid, at the moment.
> > >
> > > I saw in one documental movie expression of one jewish man who told:
> > > "We must extend our borders into desert." (To get more water.)
> > > "the desert" means some of arabian countries.
> > > Was he a lunatic (crazy) ?
> >
> > What documentary movie? There is no water in the dessert, BTW.
>
> No underground water?
> So where do you take it, but Jordan river ?
>
> It was a movie about water in the world, and it meaning for people.
> About 20 minutes of movie was dedicated Israel.
>
How nice of them. If you gudge according to the minutes
movies and news deal with israel, Israel should have 100 million
people
and be 20 times as bigger then it is in area.
I don't know. So far Israel's experience was mixed.
We were able to set a peace accord with Egypt, nevertheless
the peace with the egyptians never was warmy.
We had also peace agreement with Jordan, but we couldn't reach
a peace pact with the Palestinians, nor with Syria.
The Israeli dillama is that the Arabs wouldn't like Israel anyway,
so why settle with Israel when they can get evetything? If Israel
is strong enough then they would think they cannot win war,
they may agree to peace,
but if Israel makes to many concessions in a land for peace deal,
it would make it weaker and this would again rise the prospects
of arab victory in war.
> But why Its'hack Rabbin was killed ?
>
Because he was advocating a peace deal with the palestinians,
which I had supported. A jewish extrenist named Igal Amir
decided to stop the move by killing Rabin. I am not sure
what would have happen if Rabin was alive today.
It seemed as if he was loosing elections to the Likud rightwing party
anyway
because of many suicide bombers who started exploding in Israel as
Arafat took over. Arafat declined in stopping those attacks so many
Israeli wondered "what kind of peace is that?".
Yet I was a supporter of Rabin and his successor after he was
murdered,
despite the suicide bombings.
Anyway Likud got to power after elections and Arafat stopped the
bombing later on for a while...
> > > And seams you agreed to divide Jerusalem.
> >
> > Eventually yes, but it wasn't enough.
> >
>
> Yes. I knew it.
>
> > >
> > > > > Such word as "revenge action" sounds very dissonant.
> > > >
> > > > Do you mean killing militants ? these are no revenge actions but
> > > > pure self defence against poeple who plan and prepare attacks against
> > > > Israel.
> > >
> > > TV each time says "vidplatna actia" or "actia pomsti" ("revenge
> > > actions").
> >
> > So?
>
> So.
> Will you revenge us ?
> As you told you did not forget so fast.
>
> Regarding palestinians from Ukraine
> it looks such: you have captured their land,
> and are killing them because they want to return it.
>
It is a war over land. I'd rather fight for a land and look
bad then be in other places.
I don't object that the Palestinians would get a share of the land
and rule their own fate and have ut their own way.
Water is not a problem where there is a good will.
However I am not sure at all what do the palestinians want, I am not
sure that even they know that.
>
> > >
> > > Turkey was Christian's less than 1000 years ago.
> > > Should we capture Turkey ?
> >
> > What for? Turkey wants to be conquered by (or rather be part of) the
> > EU,
> > but europeans don't want that.
> >
>
> Kha-ha-ha.
>
> :)
>
> Oh, you mate me. :)
>
> :))))
>
> But Anatolia (the land in Turkey) it's armenian.
>
>
>
> > >
> > > And finally, ain't Palestinians offsprings of ancient jews?
> >
> > Some of them, who knows?
> > >
> > >
> > > > > Words "we brought democracy for them" convince much better,
> > > > > until the next "revenge action".
> > > >
> > > > We are not here to benefit the palestinians, let them
> > > > handle their own business in their own ways.
> > >
> > > But you did it.
> >
> > We had given them that in the happy days of Oslo the have their
> > own government, run by Arafat.
> >
>
> Is "... Oslo the have ..." means "also they have" ?
>
> Oslo is a capital of Norway (Monarchy, oil, fishing, chemistry,
> and machin building, high taxes, high social protection).
Oslo is where the accord between Israelis and Palestinians signed.
They days of Oslo were the days of hope in Israel, at least for
some of the Jews.
>
> Well.
> I think they understand they are worst then you,
> and feel themselves lost, they think its their land.
> And they want to push you out to have no with whom compare.
>
> Or what the hell they want ?
>
Land.
Of course THIS doesn't have nothing to do with antisemitism.
>
> And I told why did he passed that information.
> And science is not national business.
Vaanunu was a technician , not a scientist, not that it matters much.
But anyway he passed on "Israel develops and produces nuclear bombs" .
Is this science? It is a secret information, if it is true.
>
> > >
> > > > > > Antisemitism is evident, here on the net. I do not have to go so far
> > > > > > to find it, even in your posts, parhaps unconscious, but it is
> > > > > > still there.
> > > > >
> > > > > Kill me.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best wishes.
> > > > >
> > > > > --Michaelo
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Why should do such a thing?
> > >
> > > There are reasons.
> > > For instance, for sharing anti-Semite's ideas.
> > >
> > > Bye.
> >
> > Why sould I give you that pleasure ? ;-)
> > Oh, you can live on.
>
> :)
>
> Why?
> Because I hate everything and everybody including ukrainians.
> I see no future for me.
> I'm angry and dragged (not drugged).
>
> Since Israel did not kill me, I'll try in other place.
I am a bit concerned about you, this is the 3rd time you talk about
it.
Parhaps it a way of speech, a metaphore, but this is unhealthy.
>
> >
> > >
> > > --Michaelo
> > >
> > > P.S. I also should express my condolence (regret) about death of members
> > > of your family.
> > > I didn't it before, because I was afraid that you'd get them devious
> > > (not real).
> > >
> >
> > That's OK Michaelo.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > -----
> > YOELK
> >
> > >
> > > [skip]
Take care
-----
YOELK
Michaelo
Well.
Unfortunately I can not continue this conversation.
I go to the ukrainian village for 1 or 2 weeks.
(My parents decided to plant potato. I hate it.)
And they do not want to leave me alone, to prevent event as "that time".
:)
So if you want to replay me, write on my eMail.
Any way nobody do not read this our conversation on newsgroups.
My eMail is in header of this message, it is only safe place for it.
But I also write my email here, I hope you know how to decrepte it:
michaelostrudelukrdotnet
:)
They are such honorowy until they do not feel that they are weaker.
Yes. They are immodest. They looked at you as at a beast.
Let me tell you an anecdote:
At 2 our of night the door bell rings.
Rabinowitz, wake up come to the door and say:
-Who is it?
-It's a mail delivery service.
He open the door. Few men silently come in and say:
-It's a KGB. We have an information that you hide anti-soviets
literature,
we must search your house.
To the morning they say:
-Rabinowitz, we have found in your flat 2,000 of american $$. Why do you
need it ?
-I collected it to move into into Israel.
-What a dare ? How do you can ?
You want to leave the land of developed socialism,
for dirty imperialistic satellite. What is better in Israel than in
USSR?
-They do not deliver mail at night.
:))
"They do not deliver mail at night." :)))
No.
It's funny to me when British of Swedish people say that their countries
are poor.
I was in that poor Poland. I was in Przemysl (psemisl),
Kraków (cracouv), Wieliczka (vy'elichka),
and even in such dumb place as Piesczana Skala (sand rock).
Every where it was looking better then in almost any where in Ukraine.
There is central part of Kieve, which is looking good,
but they made it up such ugly.
I think, Israel is much better than Ukraine.
(May be, just but palestinian autonomy.)
> >
> > Inhabitants of Ukrainian villages and small towns mostly hate not jews.
> > Guess whom they hate ???
> >
> > They hate people from cities.
> > It's such local antiglobalism.
> >
> > If you don't speak with their pronunciation
> > it's dangerous for you to move even ~30 km from Keive!
> >
> > And no difference you are Ukrainian, Russian or Jew.
> >
>
> Xenophobia.
No.
It's different.
Average salary in ukrainian village is about 40-60 $$,
in Kieve average salary is about 100-150 $$.
And in addition there are little number of work places in villages.
They see goodly worn people which can buy kind of food which then can
not buy.
Also they feel that people of city are more relaxed,
and more sure.
They hate em (us).
And worst, there is no Internet in ukrainian villages.
Almost no computers. Not always they have a radio,
most of them have TV set, but no cable TV,
and in air they can receive about 1, 2, 3 in best case 4 channels.
That 1 program, is that channel
which say that arabian countries are good,
because they call CORRUPTION as "good relations".
But the rest 3 are not much better.
Also they almost do not buy newspapers.
Some people publish and circulate free news papers.
But mostly they are just free of charge. :)))
However not all ukrainian village inhabitants are such aggressive as I
painted,
at the moment.
In Ukraine currency exchange is also regulated.
But owners of exchange points have "good relations" with government.
You do not understand.
The greatest political problem of Ukraine is absents of "political
responsibility".
They can ones declare "European Choice of Ukraine" and make an "Common
Economy Area"
with Russia. However in agreement about CEA is
written "it must no conflict with constitution of Ukraine".
I love it!
This government do not protect vital, for democracy, constitutional
freedoms.
And all of it is looking like everything is O.K..
However, this agreement, allow russians economically subordinate
Ukraine.
I imagined, that Israel signed agreement with, say, Syria which allowed
them
freely work in Israel, and cross the border with ANY loads,
without ANY taxes. And all this without ANY limitations.
However, it must not conflict with constitution of Israel. :)))
I don't know, why we need a constitutions when it does not work.
You do not have it. But you are one of the best countries in the World.
People of Judea fought for they independence.
Not much not less.
>
> > But don't say that Romes are not Italians.
>
> Sort of, but Rome fell under its enemies, and so many years from now.
> It seems that Jews do not look at Italians as the descendents of
> Romans
> who destroyed Jerusalem and burnt the temple.
!?
Few years ago all Kieve was in posters of the fair of advertisement.
(Why they advertised specialized fair on public???)
There was photo picture of naked woman which care something with youth
man
dressed as businessman.
That lady looked as ancient Roma's sculpture.
But she was alive on that picture.
Where did they take her if not in Northern Italy ?
Yes, possibly in Greece. But I do not guess so.
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > [skip]
> > > >
> > > > > > But Petlura, and Bandéra was not anti-Semites.
> > > >
> > > > [skip]
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > It is said that during Petlura time between 1919-1920
> > > > > 60,000 Jews were murdered. Parhaps Petlura objected it or promoted it,
> > > > > anyway the Ukrainians did it, didn't they?
> > > >
> > > > Probably they killed.
> > > > But I don't think that so many.
> > >
> > > How many then, would you say?
> > > And if it was 20,000 Jews murdered, would it be much different for
> > > you,
> > > would you feel more comfortable?
> > >
> >
> > I think it was few 1000s.
> > It was a difficult time.
> > People killed each other.
> > I do not think that it was ethnocide.
> > Jews get in bad place and in bad time, other people too.
> >
>
> It was not ethnocide, we cannot compare it with what started 20 years
> later.
Yes. :(
Well.
First I must say,
that if even I'll do it, it has no ANY relations with your replays.
You can not calm or galvanize me by anything you write.
Also I do not want to get anybody's life with my.
>
> > Ukrainians are not guilty in everything what you complain us.
> >
> > Finally, if we killed all of Jewish people, why they are still here?
> >
> Ukraine still has one of the largest communities of Jews in the world
> if I remmember correctly.
Yes.
Here you are everywhere.
Any where you look every where you are. :)))
Well.
Ukraine has.
But they are dissolved in ukrainian nation.
Sometimes I think if was no regimes, democracies would be devolved.
Democracies have always prove - we are better because of such reasons
....
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > So.
> > > > I want to say left ideology was grew by Jews.
> > > >
> > >
> > > And so was christianity, at its beginning.
> > > Sorry Michaelo, I don't see any point here.
> > >
> >
> > You said that communism is no jewish at all.
>
> Communism is not a "Jewish" thing, definitely.
O.K.
I think the "Western civilization" has elements of
celtic
germanic
romanic
Greek
jewish
muslim's
chinese
Japanese
cultures.
All it was united in what we all have today.
A lot was taken from jewish.
>
> >
> > > >
> > > > Communism is invention of french naďve idiots,
They send in camps and killed all writes, poets, journalists, artists,
theater and film directors and even actors,
who could sow ANY doubts in their ideology.
Same was with ukrainian, russian, georgian, and other figures.
After it remained only some degraded writes and poets.
Such official ukrainian poet Pavlo Tichina became an object of chaffs
(jokes).
"
But Tichina writs a poems
Each time worst
And each time worst
Just give me brick
I'll make him sick
"
They poems became absolutely stupid and tasteless.
I'd say not "their Judaism" but "their national originality" was a
reason of
their disappearance, executions and jailing.
>
> I mean, Stalin and the regim were all wrong all the way, the doctors
> trial
> is one of the turning points even Stalins followers among Jews had
> a second and a third thought about his way and started getting
> disillusioned.
>
Yes.
Well.
I thought a lot about this.
It's what I think.
Hitler was talented artist, but instead of painting
he got on a war which broke him.
After the war Germany was lost nation,
they was poor, everybody hated them,
all ways was closed for them.
They felt themselves worst because they was Germans.
Hitler united the nation.
And replaced their inferiority complex (feeling of defective)
by feriority complex (felling of they are better).
They, probably, did not believed in it indeed, but despairly hoped on
it.
(Is why I voted for UNSO.)
Finally, he got a power.
His administration put in order several things.
Finally they gave a job for all who could and wished to work.
But they burn all wrong books.
Thought writes and journalists to write correctly,
prohibited all wrong political parties and movements.
(As you guess, all of them was wrong but Nazional Sozialistisch Partei
and Hitler Jugend, and may be some small.)
Because they told that who was not with them that was against of them.
Also jews and traveling folk got under oppression.
(This all resembles (reminds) me some modern political styles
over the whole world.)
O.K. May be it was their way of thinking.
May be they needed it for progress.
But instead of developing of economy, science, and art,
they decided to extend the borders, and kill all wrong people,
such they decided to kill all jews, traveling people,
all mad and sick people. Also all slavians was needed as slaves
they decided to leave only strongest of us to work for them,
the rest had to be annihilated.
However, they went in USSR, before USSR attacked the Europe.
They did first digital computer.
They developed missiles, television, composed space program.
Made the World to respect them, even after collapse.
But most important what did fascism with such HIGH PRICE,
it showed the dark side of the human,
and the real price of values of humanity.
Yes, you are right, we must not forget the history.
But until the kingdom of God will not came it may be repeated.
Oh, I see.
> Parhaps the Jews in Ukraine disgree
> with
> me, but anyway..
Yes it was time when jews went to Germany from Ukraine.
>
> > >
> > > >
> > > > By the way, how Israel jointed Samaria and Galilea ?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Israel haven't joined Sameria. most of it is now part of the area
> > > intended to
> > > be handed over to the palestinians when a final settlment is achieved.
> > >
> > > Regarding Galilea, there are many arabs who live there in their
> > > vilages.
> >
> > I mean not in modern history but in ancient world.
> > When you was not guest of other nation,
> > wasn't you also aggressive as most of kingdoms of that time.
>
> Oh, you mean Joshua etc...
No. I don't know who or what was Joshua.
I just thought why not only jews lived in Judea ?
> I'd consider it a myth (just like the Exodus) but it could have happen
> so,
> these were ancient times anyway, can we judge them by modern
> standards.
>
What's modern standards ?
Is it a NATO (?) when countries scare to start a war, but USA.
> >
> > > Anyway you cannot even start to compare the number of palistinian
> > > arabs
> > > who were killed y Israel during the whole period of 100 years
> > > to the number of people killed by russians or germans, nor
> > > even the number of jews killed ny Ukrainians.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > [skip]
> > > >
> > > > > > But today, you have such powerful background, in face of America.
> > > > > > You have money. You have army and (look around) nuclear weapon.
> > > > > > And tanks which drive backward. :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What can happened with you ?
> > > > >
> > > > > Who knows? my crystal ball is broken...
> > > >
> > > > Ask for 3rd pontiff to make a new one for you. (Did you read that ? :)
> > > Haven't heard about it but will look at google.
> >
> > I quoted an article: where was going that 3rd pontiff of Judea
> > who was familiar with magic, created magic spear.
> > And everybody who owned that spear ruled the world.
> >
> > Or may be, you really practice with magic, and create fetishes?
>
> "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
> magic",
> Arthur C Clarke.
>
> Technology is not so advanced yet. But anyway you can consider me as a
> practicer of Alchemy, turning sand into gold, if you understand what I
> mean.
>
Do you mean a semiconductor industry?
Is it in Israel ?
The sand is not main, other materials are also used.
But most important the lay out and circuit.
BTW, codemorFing was my idea,
together with "new conception of valuation of performance of personal
computers".
They stole it and even did not thank me.
Yes.
Do you mean, that jews (in Ukraine) do not relax ?
Or that jews always tend to study.
>
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > We are too stupid, at the moment.
> > > >
> > > > I saw in one documental movie expression of one jewish man who told:
> > > > "We must extend our borders into desert." (To get more water.)
> > > > "the desert" means some of arabian countries.
> > > > Was he a lunatic (crazy) ?
> > >
> > > What documentary movie? There is no water in the dessert, BTW.
> >
> > No underground water?
> > So where do you take it, but Jordan river ?
> >
> > It was a movie about water in the world, and it meaning for people.
> > About 20 minutes of movie was dedicated Israel.
> >
>
> How nice of them. If you gudge according to the minutes
> movies and news deal with israel, Israel should have 100 million
> people
> and be 20 times as bigger then it is in area.
>
O.K.
After about 50 years underground water will be drained.
What to do ?
To build a pipe from the Europe?
Why not start right today ?
O.K.
It seams clear to me.
Try to explain it the rest of the World.
I guess you need it, because you image is spoiled.
Jordan[ia] was ruled by person educated in the Europe.
> > But why Its'hack Rabbin was killed ?
> >
> Because he was advocating a peace deal with the palestinians,
> which I had supported. A jewish extrenist named Igal Amir
> decided to stop the move by killing Rabin. I am not sure
> what would have happen if Rabin was alive today.
>
> It seemed as if he was loosing elections to the Likud rightwing party
> anyway
> because of many suicide bombers who started exploding in Israel as
> Arafat took over. Arafat declined in stopping those attacks so many
> Israeli wondered "what kind of peace is that?".
>
> Yet I was a supporter of Rabin and his successor after he was
> murdered,
> despite the suicide bombings.
> Anyway Likud got to power after elections and Arafat stopped the
> bombing later on for a while...
>
Here it looks such:
"Jews killed Rabin because they do not want a peace."
And Arafat actively use this idea.
> > > > And seams you agreed to divide Jerusalem.
> > >
> > > Eventually yes, but it wasn't enough.
> > >
> >
> > Yes. I knew it.
> >
> > > >
> > > > > > Such word as "revenge action" sounds very dissonant.
> > > > >
> > > > > Do you mean killing militants ? these are no revenge actions but
> > > > > pure self defence against poeple who plan and prepare attacks against
> > > > > Israel.
> > > >
> > > > TV each time says "vidplatna actia" or "actia pomsti" ("revenge
> > > > actions").
> > >
> > > So?
> >
> > So.
> > Will you revenge us ?
> > As you told you did not forget so fast.
> >
> > Regarding palestinians from Ukraine
> > it looks such: you have captured their land,
> > and are killing them because they want to return it.
> >
>
> It is a war over land. I'd rather fight for a land and look
> bad then be in other places.
Look bad?
You look bad, because:
1. People (of Europe and USA) think that any spokes about jews are
prohibited.
2. You look like oppressor and violator.
3. People think that any dis'charging of Israel are enforcing of their
mind.
So they tend to distant of you.
But with it they hate you.
I have no ideas how to fix it.
May be if give them more access to information,
understandable art, music, books, they could ...
Does they reject all paints or just that where are faces?
Oh, I see.
> >
> > Well.
> > I think they understand they are worst then you,
> > and feel themselves lost, they think its their land.
> > And they want to push you out to have no with whom compare.
> >
> > Or what the hell they want ?
> >
>
> Land.
But you gives them land.
May be you should differ national liberation motives,
and religious.
Well.
It's your business with them.
I do not and can not judge you.
But I described you how do you looking like from here.
You loss you friends, you found new enemies.
A fraud secret information? Cool!
Today is not a problem to design a nuke,
high class scientists are not needed.
In Ukraine even amateur works at "pocket size sun".
Well.
Since he is free. I'll don't care about him, any more.
Yes you're right in Ukraine he might be killed.
(Officially, Ukraine has no death penalty.)
People who passed information about Echelon, in USA, was also
disappeared.
BTW, Why Switzerland has biggest in Europe nuclear research center? :)
>
> >
> > > >
> > > > > > > Antisemitism is evident, here on the net. I do not have to go so far
> > > > > > > to find it, even in your posts, parhaps unconscious, but it is
> > > > > > > still there.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Kill me.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best wishes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --Michaelo
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Why should do such a thing?
> > > >
> > > > There are reasons.
> > > > For instance, for sharing anti-Semite's ideas.
> > > >
> > > > Bye.
> > >
> > > Why sould I give you that pleasure ? ;-)
> > > Oh, you can live on.
> >
> > :)
> >
> > Why?
> > Because I hate everything and everybody including ukrainians.
> > I see no future for me.
> > I'm angry and dragged (not drugged).
> >
> > Since Israel did not kill me, I'll try in other place.
>
> I am a bit concerned about you, this is the 3rd time you talk about
> it.
> Parhaps it a way of speech, a metaphore, but this is unhealthy.
No.
I really think about it, since childhood.
Well, I'm suicide personality.
So what?
Nobody will miss about me, but may be, my mom.
You see, when you understand that you can die,
everything are changing.
It's like to watch a gladiator's or fight.
But both victim and winner are you.
How do you think why suicide bombers do it?
The same reasons.
It's like a drug.
Bye.
--Michaelo
Intelli Gence
> Susan Cohen wrote:
> >
> > "Kevin Brook" ?kuz...@lycos.com? wrote in message
> > news:eb613152.04042...@posting.google.com...
> > ?
> > ? Kevin Alan Brook, "The Origins of East European Jews," in Russian
> > ? History/Histoire Russe, vol. 30, no. 1-2 (Spring-Summer 2003), pages
> > ? 1-22.
> >
> > If the theory of this book is that all or most European Jews are the
> > descendents of the Khazars, I would defintiely suggest Michealo get
another
> > source.
> >
>
> What's difference if I have no access to any of them. :)
> And I have no time to read them.
> Finally I'm illiterate. :)
>
> I think it is good if modern jews if have 10% of blood of people who
> escaped from IVDEA before Romes ruined it.
>
True.
Sorphadic (middle eastern) jews are a small minority. Most are Ashanadze
(khazars).
Intelli Gence
>
> Yes.
> You're right.
>
> I even think to make an experiment.
>
> Write a message with ony sentence: "Jews are exist."
> And look at reaction.
>
> Some time ago I though "would be better to ignore all informnation about
> Israel and jews".
> But I don't know why, but since childhood I love to discuss prohibited
> subjects.
Try cross posting between soc.culture.ukranian and high jewish concentration
groups like sci.physics, soc.culture.russian and soc.culture.jewish. Do not
directly talk about Jews but give indirect references. Then watch the
reaction.
Conquistador
mutated through thousand of years with Mongols, tatars, gypsies, and
others. Russian jews are definitely NOT Israelites, they are mostly Slavs or
Mongols!
Michaelo
Chasars are not Jews.
Just yet another semitic nation.
By the way, if belive some sources Semites only later was mixed with
Shumers.
Intelli Gence
> >
> > Sorphadic (middle eastern) jews are a small minority. Most are Ashanadze
> > (khazars).
>
> Chasars are not Jews.
True. They are mixture of khazars and slavs (a few % of mongolians from
invasion of huns, probably from slavic side?).
Michaelo
Simples way do define jew in public place of Ukraine.
Say - evréy - antisemites and jews will look at you. :)
By the way not all physics are jews.
They just start to learn physics after Einstein.
amigocabal
"Chernovetz na polu" i vsi zhidi glianut!