Another Article: "Aryan Action" Anthrax Suspect, White Supremacist and Islamic Extremist Terrorist Groups Connection
SuperNova
I wonder what plots will be uncovered while they increase their focus
on White Supremacist terrorist groups (remember Oklahoma) the
FBI already has them under tight inspection - though previously they did
not have the good kind of power they needed to haul them in for a public
"query".
http://www.msnbc.com/news/648476.asp
ARYAN GROUP PRAISES ATTACKS
The anti-Israel message in the anthrax letters and bin Laden’s statements
are echoed by U.S. extremist groups, said Rabbi Abraham Cooper, associate
director of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles.
One group, Aryan Action, praises the Sept. 11 attacks on its Web site and
declares: “Either you’re fighting with the jews against al Qaeda, or you support
al Qaeda fighting against the jews.”
Cooper said a meeting this year in Beirut was attended by neo-Nazis and
Islamic extremists united in their hatred of Jews. “Some extremists are now
globalized,” he said.
White supremacists have been linked with anthrax in the past, but not in
relation to an attack.
Larry Wayne Harris, an Ohio microbiologist and former member of the Aryan
Nations, was convicted of wire fraud in 1997 after he obtained three vials of
bubonic plague germs through the mail. He was arrested the next year near Las
Vegas when the FBI acted on a tip that he was carrying anthrax. But agents found
harmless anthrax vaccine in the trunk of his car.
Cooper and officials at the Southern Poverty Law Project, which monitors
U.S. hate groups, said they have seen no evidence of a domestic group capable of
launching a sophisticated anthrax attack.
One of the challenges that a would-be terrorist faces is learning how to
alter the anthrax so that it will float in the air and disperse widely. The
Washington Post reported this week that the spores in the Daschle letter had
been treated with a chemical additive using technology so sophisticated that it
almost certainly came from the United States, Iraq or the former Soviet Union.
White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said yesterday, however, that
investigators believe a broad range of people are capable of the crime. “The
quality anthrax sent to Senator Daschle’s office could be produced by a Ph.D.
microbiologist and a sophisticated laboratory,” he told reporters.
SuperNova wrote:
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/conditions/10/27/post.report.extremists/
>
> Report: Anthrax could be from domestic extremists
>
> WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Government officials told The Washington Post that top FBI
> and CIA officials think the anthrax attacks in Washington, New York and Florida
> are likely the doing of United States extremists probably not connected to the
> al Qaeda terror network.
>
> In a report published Saturday, a senior official was quoted in the Post as
> saying that "everything seems to lean toward a domestic source. Nothing seems to
> fit with an overseas terrorist type operation."
>
> Authorities are considering many possibilities, the Post reports. They include
> associates of right-wing hate groups and people in the U.S. sympathetic to
> Islamic extremist causes.
>
> Officials say none of the 60 to 80 threat reports gathered every day by U.S.
> intelligence agencies has connected the letters containing anthrax spores to al
> Qaeda or other terrorist groups. They say evidence from the spore samples
> provides no links to a foreign government or lab.
>
> One senior official told the Post that while authorities believe al Qaeda
> members are planning more serious attacks, "nobody believes the anthrax scare we
> are going through is" the next wave of terrorism.
>
> "There is no intelligence on it and it does not fit any (al Qaeda) pattern," the
> official is quoted as saying.
>
> Only one clue appears to point to foreign terrorist involvement, an official
> said. FBI behavioral scientists have concluded that whoever wrote the three
> letters delivered to Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle, D-South Dakota, NBC
> News and the New York Post didn't learn English as a first language.
>
> But several officials said the letter-writer could have lived in the United
> States for a while. And, official of the Simon Wiesenthal Center told the Post
> that the anti-Israel comments in the letters and the statements of suspected
> terrorist Osama bin Laden are supported and mouthed by U.S. extremist groups.
>
> Also, officials say, they are concerned that bioterrorism is moving public
> attention away from the threat posed by bin Laden and al Qaeda.
Bev Thornton
>
> I wonder what plots will be uncovered while they increase their focus
> on White Supremacist terrorist groups (remember Oklahoma) the
> FBI already has them under tight inspection - though previously they did
> not have the good kind of power they needed to haul them in for a public
> "query".
That power is not what they need.
That is just clampdown and it breeds desparate extremists.
There is a slippery slope there, heads straight to a police state. Take
a look at the world and see how police states fair for internal
security.
--
Compute FREE: http://debian.org/ http://freedos.org/ http://openbsd.org/
RECYCLE: http://worldcomputerexchange.org/ PRIVACY: http://www.gnupg.org/
http://www.ifrc.org/ http://msf.org/ http://rawa.org/ http://tibet.org/
http://landmineaction.org/ http://peacebrigades.org/ http://www.unv.org/
http://warchild.ca/ http://www.warchild.nl/ http://warchild.org.uk/
SuperNova
Bev Thornton wrote:
>
> SuperNova, in <3BDAA211...@ehstah.com>, wrote:
> >
> > I wonder what plots will be uncovered while they increase their focus
> > on White Supremacist terrorist groups (remember Oklahoma) the
> > FBI already has them under tight inspection - though previously they did
> > not have the good kind of power they needed to haul them in for a public
> > "query".
>
> That power is not what they need.
>
> That is just clampdown and it breeds desparate extremists.
>
> There is a slippery slope there, heads straight to a police state. Take
> a look at the world and see how police states fair for internal
> security.
I have concern that we may head to a police state... just as any American
does. I even have religious beliefs, not extremist ones in that regard,
but yeah, I believe eventually technology will be used against the innocent.
And, I despise the white militant's for abusing that, and as far as
I can tell, they - not the government - are the one's pushing that
agenda more than anyone else. Even if technology is used against masses
of innocents -- that is the crime, not strengthening laws.
We may say, "Well, by the time the government does turn to a police
state everything else will already be set up, and it will be too
late"... but, the gross incapability of our laws is self-evident...
in our inability to crackdown on these terrorists.
Just browse their sites, read their posts, follow their history --
yes, they plan terrorism, yes, they have terrorist demands... yes,
they are terrorists. They think these guys who applaud white supremacist
terrorism are heroes.
Some of them just want to do violence to minorities -- funny how
many of their victims are Anglo Saxon. Some of them want to have
their own segregated state within the United States. A vast majority
of them believe the government, the media, the corporations are all
the devil -- and should be toppled, destroyed.
It does not take much to look at their sites, research their posts,
and see these things. And, the threat is real, there is this long
history of terrorism from them. Even when they are not out shooting
or killing or planning mayhem... they are involved in crime: drug
dealing, smuggling, robberies, extortion to finance their activities.
I am sorry, but I do not like these obvious criminals on the loose,
and knowing full and well all the authorities can do is to watch
them... they can do all of the above -- and not even get pulled in!
Bev Thornton
>
> I have concern that we may head to a police state... just as any American
> does. I even have religious beliefs, not extremist ones in that regard,
> but yeah, I believe eventually technology will be used against the innocent.
Doesn't have to be that way.
Look at Canada, we have anti-terrorist legislation AND guarantees on our
privacy AND total encryption freedom AND the world's best record in
counter-terrorism.
our legislation is radically different, the premises are not the same.
The anti-terrorist legislation being tabled in the US, that is not
really anti-terrorist measures, they are police state surveillance
measures and they are better for blackmail than for counter-terrorism.
Indeed, the legislation will only force the terrorists to be more
careful. Just as their handlers would have them.
> And, I despise the white militant's for abusing that, and as far as
> I can tell, they - not the government - are the one's pushing that
> agenda more than anyone else. Even if technology is used against masses
> of innocents -- that is the crime, not strengthening laws.
Those white militants, the Larry Wayne Harris and William Leavitt types,
they want the clampdown, all they want is the clampdown. If you read
their literature you'll see what I mean. They actually think they are on
the side of law and order and all they want is a totally locked-down
state, the 'freedom' of the Depression-era Nazis.
> We may say, "Well, by the time the government does turn to a police
> state everything else will already be set up, and it will be too
> late"... but, the gross incapability of our laws is self-evident...
> in our inability to crackdown on these terrorists.
Apparently.
Be careful and worry if you must but know that if America falls into the
clutches of fascism or even something new and worse that the rest of the
world will come to liberate you all.
Fascist really are as stupid as their leaders, a bunch of people too
stupid to realize that they are stupid. The current 'anti-terrorism'
(where in hell did that term come from) which is anything but
counter-terrorism, is an example of that stupidity. For instance, Bush
fights an air war while bin Laden fights a propaganda one - Bush can't
even find the battlefield.
All you boys and girls just hang onto your guns at home. You may need
them. Could take the forces of freedom awhile to get there should one of
those weird things in history occur again.
> Just browse their sites, read their posts, follow their history --
> yes, they plan terrorism, yes, they have terrorist demands... yes,
> they are terrorists. They think these guys who applaud white supremacist
> terrorism are heroes.
I know. go to one of their rallies. Dress carefully and bone-up on lingo
first.
> Some of them just want to do violence to minorities -- funny how
> many of their victims are Anglo Saxon. Some of them want to have
> their own segregated state within the United States. A vast majority
> of them believe the government, the media, the corporations are all
> the devil -- and should be toppled, destroyed.
Those are just the brownshirts. Same as Hitler used. Fascist terrorists
create them so there will be something to counter, the brownshirts
themselves. Makes all the people cry for law and order.
Cute trick, ain't it?
> It does not take much to look at their sites, research their posts,
> and see these things. And, the threat is real, there is this long
> history of terrorism from them. Even when they are not out shooting
> or killing or planning mayhem... they are involved in crime: drug
> dealing, smuggling, robberies, extortion to finance their activities.
You forgot about #1 -> white slaving, forced prostitution. They don't
call the bullyboys 'skins' for nothing. It ain't just a hair thing,
never was. It started with British pedophile nazis in London who wanted
teenage girls to play with, way back in the sixties. The fellow who was
promoting the Doc Martin boots through the seventies, not connected with
the shoe company, anyway, that guy, he was head of the
international pedophile prostitution ring that was built on the skins
movement. today that is really what it is all about, pimping. Well,
pimping, drug-dealing, extortion and causing conditions such that the
general populace will call for a clampdown.
And the people pulling the strings of the skins, all they want is the
clampdown, all they want is unrestricted police power.
Who do you suppose they are? Only they know for sure.
> I am sorry, but I do not like these obvious criminals on the loose,
> and knowing full and well all the authorities can do is to watch
> them... they can do all of the above -- and not even get pulled in!
Law is not the answer. Education is.
Just as twisted as are the causes, are the solutions.
Terrorism is never what it appears to be and counter-terrorism never
appears at all. Well, except when asshole politicians interfere.
Dignity, honour, respect - these are the weapons terrorists don't have.
Brian
I've never read suchj bullshit in a single post.
At best this would be libel, at worst you should lock your door real tight.
<plonk>
Brian
"Bev Thornton" <lusit...@home.com> skrev i melding
news:6%WC7.125898$ob.28...@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com...
Bev Thornton
Not a single lie, except yours, right there.
> I've never read suchj bullshit in a single post.
Oops! There's another one now. Two then, two lies, both yours.
> At best this would be libel,
Sue me.
Anthrax Terrorists - Larry Wayne Harris, 49 & William Leavitt Jr, 50
Where are they now?
http://www11.cnn.com/US/9802/20/anthrax.arrests/#1
Look at these psycho scum:
http://www.servtech.com/public/montgome/cw980221.htm
>at worst you should lock your door real tight.
Aw, wittle man weduced to tewwowwist tweats?
You fucking terrorist. Die real slow and painful like now, ya hear?
SuperNova
Bev Thornton wrote:
>
> SuperNova, in <3BDB3358...@ehstah.com>, wrote:
> >
> > I have concern that we may head to a police state... just as any American
> > does. I even have religious beliefs, not extremist ones in that regard,
> > but yeah, I believe eventually technology will be used against the innocent.
>
> Doesn't have to be that way.
>
> Look at Canada, we have anti-terrorist legislation AND guarantees on our
> privacy AND total encryption freedom AND the world's best record in
> counter-terrorism.
We have strong guarantee's on our privacy now, and with encryption.
Canada does not impress me, I worked for sometime for a Canadian
company and have a lot of friends there. I am very aware of the terrorism
that goes on there.
Canada is a pretty neutral country, anyway.
>
> our legislation is radically different, the premises are not the same.
>
> The anti-terrorist legislation being tabled in the US, that is not
> really anti-terrorist measures, they are police state surveillance
> measures and they are better for blackmail than for counter-terrorism.
>
> Indeed, the legislation will only force the terrorists to be more
> careful. Just as their handlers would have them.
>
> > And, I despise the white militant's for abusing that, and as far as
> > I can tell, they - not the government - are the one's pushing that
> > agenda more than anyone else. Even if technology is used against masses
> > of innocents -- that is the crime, not strengthening laws.
>
> Those white militants, the Larry Wayne Harris and William Leavitt types,
> they want the clampdown, all they want is the clampdown. If you read
> their literature you'll see what I mean. They actually think they are on
> the side of law and order and all they want is a totally locked-down
> state, the 'freedom' of the Depression-era Nazis.
They hate the federal government and preach terrorism. They look up
to Kenneth McVay and the men who "did more than just talk", such as
those bank robbers who shot that radio host in Denver... the
few wandering assassins... the guy who shot up a bunch of Jewish kids
in California... the guys who were going to cut the power lines
to California for the millenium.
It is all over their newsgroups, though. These people have automatic
weapons, they have explosives, they are financed by such things
as the drug trade... there is racially motivated violence on the
streets all the time.
>
> > We may say, "Well, by the time the government does turn to a police
> > state everything else will already be set up, and it will be too
> > late"... but, the gross incapability of our laws is self-evident...
> > in our inability to crackdown on these terrorists.
>
> Apparently.
>
> Be careful and worry if you must but know that if America falls into the
> clutches of fascism or even something new and worse that the rest of the
> world will come to liberate you all.
>
> Fascist really are as stupid as their leaders, a bunch of people too
> stupid to realize that they are stupid. The current 'anti-terrorism'
> (where in hell did that term come from) which is anything but
> counter-terrorism, is an example of that stupidity. For instance, Bush
> fights an air war while bin Laden fights a propaganda one - Bush can't
> even find the battlefield.
Historically, we have been very poor at propaganda wars, so are most
countries. I think that because the facts are so available to us,
we think they are to the people we are fighting against. However, this
is very often not the case.
Regardless, I do believe that we need to dismantle the Taliban
regime.
>
> All you boys and girls just hang onto your guns at home. You may need
> them. Could take the forces of freedom awhile to get there should one of
> those weird things in history occur again.
I realize that some of the people who post here may not be agreeing
of these things... but this is deep within the fabric of the United
States. We are based on the principles that include, "It can happen
here". And, everyone should be completely aware of this, that what
happened in Germany and the Soviet Union can happen anywhere... to
anyone.
Regardless, realizing that I still feel compelled to wait until
it does actually happen. There are plenty of people who feel the
government is completely controlled by a conspiracy and I could not
disagree stronger. I will not act as if the government is controlled
by any such thing. This movement I see, would have to be from within
the people, by the people...
>
> > Just browse their sites, read their posts, follow their history --
> > yes, they plan terrorism, yes, they have terrorist demands... yes,
> > they are terrorists. They think these guys who applaud white supremacist
> > terrorism are heroes.
>
> I know. go to one of their rallies. Dress carefully and bone-up on lingo
> first.
I do not have a reason to do that.
>
> > Some of them just want to do violence to minorities -- funny how
> > many of their victims are Anglo Saxon. Some of them want to have
> > their own segregated state within the United States. A vast majority
> > of them believe the government, the media, the corporations are all
> > the devil -- and should be toppled, destroyed.
>
> Those are just the brownshirts. Same as Hitler used. Fascist terrorists
> create them so there will be something to counter, the brownshirts
> themselves. Makes all the people cry for law and order.
>
> Cute trick, ain't it?
Lovely.
>
> > It does not take much to look at their sites, research their posts,
> > and see these things. And, the threat is real, there is this long
> > history of terrorism from them. Even when they are not out shooting
> > or killing or planning mayhem... they are involved in crime: drug
> > dealing, smuggling, robberies, extortion to finance their activities.
>
> You forgot about #1 -> white slaving, forced prostitution. They don't
> call the bullyboys 'skins' for nothing. It ain't just a hair thing,
> never was. It started with British pedophile nazis in London who wanted
> teenage girls to play with, way back in the sixties. The fellow who was
> promoting the Doc Martin boots through the seventies, not connected with
> the shoe company, anyway, that guy, he was head of the
> international pedophile prostitution ring that was built on the skins
> movement. today that is really what it is all about, pimping. Well,
> pimping, drug-dealing, extortion and causing conditions such that the
> general populace will call for a clampdown.
>
> And the people pulling the strings of the skins, all they want is the
> clampdown, all they want is unrestricted police power.
>
> Who do you suppose they are? Only they know for sure.
I disagree, I still believe that they are not very powerful in
the United States and that the majority of Americans would like
to see these sorts of people and their racist, terrorist views
locked up.
I am not aware of the pedophilia, I am aware that they run drugs
from the groups I have known on the streets. I am aware that they
have their strings pulled from elsewhere... and of course, there
are sometimes some wealthy racists behind these things... I do
not believe we will see what happened in post-war Germany here,
though for sometime such as the fascist corruption they had high
up. But, I am willing to err on the side of caution.
This does not mean that I believe our law enforcement has had
the police power it needs to have.
>
> > I am sorry, but I do not like these obvious criminals on the loose,
> > and knowing full and well all the authorities can do is to watch
> > them... they can do all of the above -- and not even get pulled in!
>
> Law is not the answer. Education is.
>
> Just as twisted as are the causes, are the solutions.
>
> Terrorism is never what it appears to be and counter-terrorism never
> appears at all. Well, except when asshole politicians interfere.
>
> Dignity, honour, respect - these are the weapons terrorists don't have.
This is a very good point.
Bev Thornton
>
> We have strong guarantee's on our privacy now, and with encryption.
In the US? You don't have encryption freedom there. You have some
encryption you can legally use, that's all.
As for your privacy, you haven't had any in years. What do you think the
NSA does? http://www.bodyofsecrets.com/
They have a mandate and they do a damn fine job of fulfilling it too.
> Canada does not impress me, I worked for sometime for a Canadian
> company and have a lot of friends there. I am very aware of the terrorism
> that goes on there.
Tell us of an event.
> Canada is a pretty neutral country, anyway.
hahahahahaha
You call the Landmine Treaty neutral? Or our burning Libyan oil and
smoking Cuban cigars? Or our RCI? RCI is one of the biggest propaganda
machines on Earth. Simply dwarfs VOA, for instance.
> They hate the federal government and preach terrorism. They look up
> to Kenneth McVay and the men who "did more than just talk", such as
> those bank robbers who shot that radio host in Denver... the
> few wandering assassins... the guy who shot up a bunch of Jewish kids
> in California... the guys who were going to cut the power lines
> to California for the millenium.
Strange heroes you americans have. A lot of anthropologists and
sociologists I've talked to don't think Audie Murphy would have been a
war hero here. We make them of a different sort and the exploits for
what he is known, we hospitalize our soldiers for doing that sort of
thing, started just after WW1. Very different approach. We've been
screening out the McVeighs, for instance, since 1984, and even before
that had a screening process that kept such men out of and far away from
special service of any kind. Now they can't even join at all.
> It is all over their newsgroups, though. These people have automatic
> weapons, they have explosives, they are financed by such things
> as the drug trade... there is racially motivated violence on the
> streets all the time.
They are the same ilk as bin Laden and his cronies.
> Historically, we have been very poor at propaganda wars, so are most
> countries. I think that because the facts are so available to us,
> we think they are to the people we are fighting against. However, this
> is very often not the case.
Are you sure the facts are so available?
Do you know what the US government just did to Canada yesterday? They
are going to force us into a recession and they are breaking free trade
agreements to do it. Have you heard about it?
> Regardless, I do believe that we need to dismantle the Taliban
> regime.
This is not the way to do that. There are very many better ways.
> I realize that some of the people who post here may not be agreeing
> of these things... but this is deep within the fabric of the United
> States. We are based on the principles that include, "It can happen
> here". And, everyone should be completely aware of this, that what
> happened in Germany and the Soviet Union can happen anywhere... to
> anyone.
It's happening there. Look at the new laws they are making.
Those measures won't prevent terrorism. They will only spread
authoritarianism and, possibly but unthinkably, fascism. The USA is
sliding down that slope right now. For no good reason at all.
> Regardless, realizing that I still feel compelled to wait until
> it does actually happen. There are plenty of people who feel the
> government is completely controlled by a conspiracy and I could not
> disagree stronger. I will not act as if the government is controlled
> by any such thing. This movement I see, would have to be from within
> the people, by the people...
for the people.
Where is Thomas Jefferson when you need him?
> I disagree, I still believe that they are not very powerful in
> the United States and that the majority of Americans would like
> to see these sorts of people and their racist, terrorist views
> locked up.
What would you estimate the percentage here of posts advocating
genocide?
> I am not aware of the pedophilia,
They pass the girls around very young. Younger than they do in South
Carolina.
> This does not mean that I believe our law enforcement has had
> the police power it needs to have.
Well, they'll be getting lots of power soon.
>> Dignity, honour, respect - these are the weapons terrorists don't have.
>
> This is a very good point.
The secret to beating them, those three words. There are other secrets
too but they aren't words.
--
Compute FREE: http://debian.org/ http://freedos.org/ http://openbsd.org/
RECYCLE: http://worldcomputerexchange.org/ PRIVACY: http://www.gnupg.org/
http://www.ifrc.org/ http://msf.org/ http://rawa.org/ http://tibet.org/
http://landmineaction.org/ http://peacebrigades.org/ http://www.unv.org/
http://septemberhearts.org/ http://warchild.ca/ http://warchild.org.uk/
SuperNova
Bev Thornton wrote:
>
> SuperNova, in <3BE088C4...@ehstah.com>, wrote:
> >
> > We have strong guarantee's on our privacy now, and with encryption.
>
> In the US? You don't have encryption freedom there. You have some
> encryption you can legally use, that's all.
>
> As for your privacy, you haven't had any in years. What do you think the
> NSA does? http://www.bodyofsecrets.com/
>
> They have a mandate and they do a damn fine job of fulfilling it too.
I disagree that they are doing such a fine job within the borders
of the United States. Try "Crypto" for a book about their failures.
Echelon is overblown.
We have encryption we can use. PGP came from the United States. As a security
developer I can put in Rijandael or Blowfish into anything I wish with
complete ease... and no, the NSA can not break 256 hard encryption. They
can not break PGP even without a key. Which is not breaking it.
>
> > Canada does not impress me, I worked for sometime for a Canadian
> > company and have a lot of friends there. I am very aware of the terrorism
> > that goes on there.
>
> Tell us of an event.
Just two weeks ago the anti-globalization crowd staged an event to
shut down commerce in downtown Toronto. How that went I do not know.
There were problems from the anti-globalization crowd, if I remember
correctly before this and currently.
And, of course, we are all so deeply aware of how the terrorists are
coming down from Canada... for instance, in the millenium attack, the
guy had a car full of explosives coming from Canada.
As for laws, it is okay in Canada to do such things as to bug jail
cells and such. You have a number of laws I recall hearing of which
greatly help these sorts of investigations which we do not.
Such laws that we did not have are really very foolish, like the
inability to run wiretaps on any phone a suspect uses.
>
> > Canada is a pretty neutral country, anyway.
>
> hahahahahaha
>
> You call the Landmine Treaty neutral? Or our burning Libyan oil and
> smoking Cuban cigars?
Neutral, we are taking a stand against Cuba, you are not.
> Or our RCI? RCI is one of the biggest propaganda
> machines on Earth. Simply dwarfs VOA, for instance.
>
Canada is just another state of the United States -- and you know it.
You know how often I have been up there? You are entirely being
silly.
> > They hate the federal government and preach terrorism. They look up
> > to Kenneth McVay and the men who "did more than just talk", such as
> > those bank robbers who shot that radio host in Denver... the
> > few wandering assassins... the guy who shot up a bunch of Jewish kids
> > in California... the guys who were going to cut the power lines
> > to California for the millenium.
>
> Strange heroes you americans have.
McVeigh is universally demonized by the vast majority of Americans,
and with totally righteous cause. Characterizing a bizarre minority
as normal even in an indirect, perhaps unintentional way, is entirely
incorrect.
>A lot of anthropologists and
> sociologists I've talked to don't think Audie Murphy would have been a
> war hero here. We make them of a different sort and the exploits for
> what he is known, we hospitalize our soldiers for doing that sort of
> thing, started just after WW1. Very different approach. We've been
> screening out the McVeighs, for instance, since 1984, and even before
> that had a screening process that kept such men out of and far away from
> special service of any kind. Now they can't even join at all.
Again, Canada is just another extension of the United States. But,
I am sure we have some diabolical Canadian spies around here -- LOL!
>
> > It is all over their newsgroups, though. These people have automatic
> > weapons, they have explosives, they are financed by such things
> > as the drug trade... there is racially motivated violence on the
> > streets all the time.
>
> They are the same ilk as bin Laden and his cronies.
>
> > Historically, we have been very poor at propaganda wars, so are most
> > countries. I think that because the facts are so available to us,
> > we think they are to the people we are fighting against. However, this
> > is very often not the case.
>
> Are you sure the facts are so available?
I am speaking of specifically in Middle Eastern conflict situations.
>
> Do you know what the US government just did to Canada yesterday? They
> are going to force us into a recession and they are breaking free trade
> agreements to do it. Have you heard about it?
Nope, and I don't see it on the Toronto Star's front page.
>
> > Regardless, I do believe that we need to dismantle the Taliban
> > regime.
>
> This is not the way to do that. There are very many better ways.
Like what?
>
> > I realize that some of the people who post here may not be agreeing
> > of these things... but this is deep within the fabric of the United
> > States. We are based on the principles that include, "It can happen
> > here". And, everyone should be completely aware of this, that what
> > happened in Germany and the Soviet Union can happen anywhere... to
> > anyone.
>
> It's happening there. Look at the new laws they are making.
>
Like what law? The ability to have roving wiretaps? Canadians have
outrageous abilities to spy on suspected criminals. Bugging jail
cells, for instance, is something we could never do.
> Those measures won't prevent terrorism. They will only spread
> authoritarianism and, possibly but unthinkably, fascism. The USA is
> sliding down that slope right now. For no good reason at all.
Like what law are you speaking of?
>
> > Regardless, realizing that I still feel compelled to wait until
> > it does actually happen. There are plenty of people who feel the
> > government is completely controlled by a conspiracy and I could not
> > disagree stronger. I will not act as if the government is controlled
> > by any such thing. This movement I see, would have to be from within
> > the people, by the people...
>
> for the people.
>
> Where is Thomas Jefferson when you need him?
>
> > I disagree, I still believe that they are not very powerful in
> > the United States and that the majority of Americans would like
> > to see these sorts of people and their racist, terrorist views
> > locked up.
>
> What would you estimate the percentage here of posts advocating
> genocide?
I have done posts which observed the quantity of racist viewpoints
on the Usenet, I could do it with this. There are a lot of racists
that post from the United States on these groups. They are still
a minority, a vast, extremist minority. It does no good to say because
a lot of racists - about five hundred - posts tens of thousands, hundreds
of thousands of posts... to say that five hundred is representative
of the entire United States...
That is following the samesort of fallacies they follow, albeit
not with the sort of evil that they follow.
>
> > I am not aware of the pedophilia,
>
> They pass the girls around very young. Younger than they do in South
> Carolina.
Maybe, I am just not aware of that. The skinheads I have met are
usually teenagers themselves. They are a very common group among
the skating punks and at the downtown clubs and such.
>
> > This does not mean that I believe our law enforcement has had
> > the police power it needs to have.
>
> Well, they'll be getting lots of power soon.
Maybe, but I think that America could surprise everyone and
may not turn like that.
>
> >> Dignity, honour, respect - these are the weapons terrorists don't have.
> >
> > This is a very good point.
>
> The secret to beating them, those three words. There are other secrets
> too but they aren't words.
LOL. Yes, maybe, but we do have a great deal of shows on these groups,
exposing them... and as law enforcement focuses on them, so do these
shows increase... so does the media light on them increase. I think that
people discredit us far more than we deserve, and that is unfortunate.
Bev Thornton
>
> I disagree that they are doing such a fine job within the borders
> of the United States. Try "Crypto" for a book about their failures.
They're no good at crypto, they have the wrong approach. They are very
good at non-military SIGINT - eavesdropping on civilians.
> Echelon is overblown.
Yeah, what a joke. Totally short-sighted.
> We have encryption we can use. PGP came from the United States. As a security
> developer I can put in Rijandael or Blowfish into anything I wish with
> complete ease... and no, the NSA can not break 256 hard encryption. They
> can not break PGP even without a key. Which is not breaking it.
And can you then do whatever you want with it?
There is more to freedom than one's own yard.
> Just two weeks ago the anti-globalization crowd staged an event to
> shut down commerce in downtown Toronto. How that went I do not know.
That is not terrorism. That is demonstration, it is a political action
of civil disobediences.
It went very well. Authorities claimed it didn't but the a-infos and tao
organizations have a very highly-developed system of documentation and
communication.
> There were problems from the anti-globalization crowd, if I remember
> correctly before this and currently.
Yes, lots of anti-globalization demonstrations here. If it gets to be
too big a problem then the police bear spray everybody. We have all
sorts of demonstrations of civil disobedience. We learned it from the
teachings of a great American thinker, Henry David Thoreau. And we are
protected in the right.
> And, of course, we are all so deeply aware of how the terrorists are
> coming down from Canada... for instance, in the millenium attack, the
> guy had a car full of explosives coming from Canada.
They have to get there from somewhere. That is the effect of proximity.
Do you know how many we've captured and sent packing?
> As for laws, it is okay in Canada to do such things as to bug jail
> cells and such. You have a number of laws I recall hearing of which
> greatly help these sorts of investigations which we do not.
Yes. And we have had them for many years now. They are not a problem.
they are not what they are getting in the US now, either.
> Such laws that we did not have are really very foolish, like the
> inability to run wiretaps on any phone a suspect uses.
How about on any microphone, over there, way over there?
> Neutral, we are taking a stand against Cuba, you are not.
We are Cuba's largest trading partner and have been for many years. We
take a stand FOR Cuba. In the 60's and 70's we even had a program where
students could go to Cuba and work all summer and then come home with
enough money for tuition. Tens of thousands over the years. I vaguely
remember something about a stolen jet once too, can't remember exactly.
> Canada is just another state of the United States -- and you know it.
We love it when you say that.
> You know how often I have been up there? You are entirely being
> silly.
Whatever you say.
> McVeigh is universally demonized by the vast majority of Americans,
> and with totally righteous cause. Characterizing a bizarre minority
> as normal even in an indirect, perhaps unintentional way, is entirely
> incorrect.
Normal? He isn't normal. He just never should have ever been able to
even get close to a special operations school. Profiling. We learned
that from the Americans too. In the eighties. It was implemented after
the Lortie incident is constantly extended and refined. We are very
careful who we teach to improvise explosives.
> Again, Canada is just another extension of the United States. But,
> I am sure we have some diabolical Canadian spies around here -- LOL!
Taht's right, keep smiling. Everything is all right.
>> Are you sure the facts are so available?
>
> I am speaking of specifically in Middle Eastern conflict situations.
Yeah, and how available are all the facts in the US? I've been there,
over a year of my life. I know what access to foreign news is like
there, I've looked for it a lot.
> Nope, and I don't see it on the Toronto Star's front page.
So? We have even bigger news than the new wood product tariffs that are
going to cripple our economy. There's a war on and the international
money market also didled down our dollar yesterday. Did you have a point
with mentioning the National Enquirer, er, I mean, the Star?
>> This is not the way to do that. There are very many better ways.
>
> Like what?
Insurgency and diplomacy. UN occupation is good too. Peacekeepers with
lots of relief supplies. Fridges, stoves and everything. Loya Jirga.
> Like what law? The ability to have roving wiretaps? Canadians have
> outrageous abilities to spy on suspected criminals. Bugging jail
> cells, for instance, is something we could never do.
Too bad for you.
How is it you guys get such big prisons anyway?
> Like what law are you speaking of?
107th Congress, 1st Session, H.R. 3162 USA Patriot Act of 2001
http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html
> I have done posts which observed the quantity of racist viewpoints
> on the Usenet, I could do it with this. There are a lot of racists
> that post from the United States on these groups. They are still
> a minority, a vast, extremist minority. It does no good to say because
> a lot of racists - about five hundred - posts tens of thousands, hundreds
> of thousands of posts... to say that five hundred is representative
> of the entire United States...
Even five hundred is enough to make a remark about. however, there are
far more than that. I've seen the marches in Georgia, South Carolina,
North Carolina, with my eyes. I've seen many more than five hundred.
And now I see people calling for genocide.
Just peachy.
Nothing to worry about, right? Jes sum gewd auld boyez bwowin off
steyum? Yeah right. I've been to Boston too. I was on the bridge the day
the guy got the flag pole drove through him at City Hall. Stuck it
traffic, it was bad. Bus riots.
> That is following the samesort of fallacies they follow, albeit
> not with the sort of evil that they follow.
What sort is it?
>> They pass the girls around very young. Younger than they do in South
>> Carolina.
>
> Maybe, I am just not aware of that. The skinheads I have met are
> usually teenagers themselves. They are a very common group among
> the skating punks and at the downtown clubs and such.
Skinheads? I thought it was about how young they marry off their women
under tha Taliban regime. They do it shortly after her first menses, not
always but a lot.
When skins grow-up, what do they become?
> Maybe, but I think that America could surprise everyone and
> may not turn like that.
That would be nice.
>> >> Dignity, honour, respect - these are the weapons terrorists don't have.
>> >
>> > This is a very good point.
>>
>> The secret to beating them, those three words. There are other secrets
>> too but they aren't words.
>
> LOL. Yes, maybe, but we do have a great deal of shows on these groups,
> exposing them... and as law enforcement focuses on them, so do these
> shows increase... so does the media light on them increase. I think that
> people discredit us far more than we deserve, and that is unfortunate.
Discredit?
Wanna discuss France instead?
Susan Cohen
Bev Thornton wrote:
> SuperNova, in <3BE088C4...@ehstah.com>, wrote:
> >
> > We have strong guarantee's on our privacy now, and with encryption.
>
> In the US? You don't have encryption freedom there. You have some
> encryption you can legally use, that's all.
>
> As for your privacy, you haven't had any in years. What do you think the
> NSA does? http://www.bodyofsecrets.com/
>
> They have a mandate and they do a damn fine job of fulfilling it too.
Um, you may be a trifle confused.
The NSA is only for out-of-the-country stuff.
I know people who work there.
>
>
> > Canada does not impress me, I worked for sometime for a Canadian
> > company and have a lot of friends there. I am very aware of the terrorism
> > that goes on there.
>
> Tell us of an event.
>
> > Canada is a pretty neutral country, anyway.
>
> hahahahahaha
>
> You call the Landmine Treaty neutral?
yeah - amazing how people have been blindsided by
empty-headed lady Di (but she should still rest in peace)
taking this one up.
> Or our burning Libyan oil and
> smoking Cuban cigars? Or our RCI? RCI is one of the biggest propaganda
> machines on Earth. Simply dwarfs VOA, for instance.
>
> > They hate the federal government and preach terrorism. They look up
> > to Kenneth McVay and the men who "did more than just talk", such as
> > those bank robbers who shot that radio host in Denver... the
> > few wandering assassins... the guy who shot up a bunch of Jewish kids
> > in California... the guys who were going to cut the power lines
> > to California for the millenium.
>
> Strange heroes you americans have.
Uh, strange heros *bigots* have
> A lot of anthropologists and
> sociologists I've talked to don't think Audie Murphy would have been a
> war hero here. We make them of a different sort and the exploits for
> what he is known, we hospitalize our soldiers for doing that sort of
> thing, started just after WW1. Very different approach.
Hmm. That's...interesting.
Out of wartime, what terrible thing did Audie Murphy do to
show that he was a threat to society for something he did
while under *wartime* circumstances?
> We've been
> screening out the McVeighs, for instance, since 1984, and even before
> that had a screening process that kept such men out of and far away from
> special service of any kind. Now they can't even join at all.
>
> > It is all over their newsgroups, though. These people have automatic
> > weapons, they have explosives, they are financed by such things
> > as the drug trade... there is racially motivated violence on the
> > streets all the time.
>
> They are the same ilk as bin Laden and his cronies.
>
> > Historically, we have been very poor at propaganda wars, so are most
> > countries. I think that because the facts are so available to us,
> > we think they are to the people we are fighting against. However, this
> > is very often not the case.
>
> Are you sure the facts are so available?
>
> Do you know what the US government just did to Canada yesterday? They
> are going to force us into a recession and they are breaking free trade
> agreements to do it. Have you heard about it?
I'm still busy apologizing for acid rain.
> > Regardless, I do believe that we need to dismantle the Taliban
> > regime.
>
> This is not the way to do that. There are very many better ways.
I'd love to hear *anything* that would work.
> > I realize that some of the people who post here may not be agreeing
> > of these things... but this is deep within the fabric of the United
> > States. We are based on the principles that include, "It can happen
> > here". And, everyone should be completely aware of this, that what
> > happened in Germany and the Soviet Union can happen anywhere... to
> > anyone.
>
> It's happening there. Look at the new laws they are making.
>
> Those measures won't prevent terrorism. They will only spread
> authoritarianism and, possibly but unthinkably, fascism. The USA is
> sliding down that slope right now. For no good reason at all.
Don't worry. All the "strictures" we're trying to impose will go *nowhere*,
and this includes the ones we *should* be utilizing, like airport security,
etc.
Sigh.
> > Regardless, realizing that I still feel compelled to wait until
> > it does actually happen. There are plenty of people who feel the
> > government is completely controlled by a conspiracy and I could not
> > disagree stronger. I will not act as if the government is controlled
> > by any such thing. This movement I see, would have to be from within
> > the people, by the people...
>
> for the people.
>
> Where is Thomas Jefferson when you need him?
>
> > I disagree, I still believe that they are not very powerful in
> > the United States and that the majority of Americans would like
> > to see these sorts of people and their racist, terrorist views
> > locked up.
>
> What would you estimate the percentage here of posts advocating
> genocide?
Of course, Usenet is a bit skewed. Then again, I also think that there
*are* more racists than people can actually count.
> > I am not aware of the pedophilia,
>
> They pass the girls around very young. Younger than they do in South
> Carolina.
>
> > This does not mean that I believe our law enforcement has had
> > the police power it needs to have.
>
> Well, they'll be getting lots of power soon.
>
> >> Dignity, honour, respect - these are the weapons terrorists don't have.
> >
> > This is a very good point.
>
> The secret to beating them, those three words.
Well, that's easy to *say*, but what does it really translate to??
Susan
Bev Thornton
>
> Um, you may be a trifle confused.
> The NSA is only for out-of-the-country stuff.
> I know people who work there.
Oh, ok, I'm a trifle confused. Same as these people:
http://www.echelonwatch.org/
> yeah - amazing how people have been blindsided by
> empty-headed lady Di (but she should still rest in peace)
> taking this one up.
Lady Di? That was a charity. I was referring to a treaty.
She didn't have much to do with the treaty at all. Where did you get
that idea? She was a celebrity used to raise money.
Here's a search
http://www.google.com/search?q=lady+diana+landmine+treaty
and here's another
http://www.google.com/search?q=landmine+treaty
Can you see the difference?
Now, if you'd like to provide an example of how much she really was
involved in it, I'm all eyes.
> Uh, strange heros *bigots* have
What are ones non-bigots have? Are there war heroes for non-bigots?
We have them in Canada. All kinds. Laura Secord is my favourite. But
Benedict Arnold, now that will tell you something about the character of
the people of the Great White North. The 'white' is snow, by the way.
> Out of wartime, what terrible thing did Audie Murphy do to
> show that he was a threat to society for something he did
> while under *wartime* circumstances?
He was suicidal in combat. that is a threat to all the men. If such
actions are successful, in some countries, there is no honouring of
that. they're just the crazy guy who did the risky thing and they are
sent to the hospital just as a matter of course, how we deal with all
that stuff, shell shock and things.
Now, if you recall, I never wrote that he was a threat, you got that out
of nowhere; I never wrote that he even did a terrible thing, that too,
you got out of nowhere. Now, you also brought-up Lady Di who is not very
relevant at all to the treaty effort. Why did you do all that?
> I'm still busy apologizing for acid rain.
Apology will not do. It is moot, of no value or utility. Acid rain is
not a bad hair day. The rain is killing the Earth. It hears no apology.
So don't bother being busy with that.
> I'd love to hear *anything* that would work.
Loya Jirga
http://www.loyajirga.com/
That will have to wait now. A Predator airplane kind of mucked things up
just last Friday.
> Don't worry. All the "strictures" we're trying to impose will go *nowhere*,
> and this includes the ones we *should* be utilizing, like airport security,
> etc.
> Sigh.
Oh, ok, no good stuff will be done, *sigh*
Good thing the people on Flight 93 didn't think that way.
And the postal workers, they just had a press conference, did you catch
it on the news yet?
Go postalworkers Go! Demand proper measures!
> Of course, Usenet is a bit skewed. Then again, I also think that there
> *are* more racists than people can actually count.
Could be. no problem though, they just need to be lined up. They can be
tricked into doing that. They can be tricked into doing all kinds of
things, or so I've heard.
>> >> Dignity, honour, respect - these are the weapons terrorists don't have.
>> >
>> > This is a very good point.
>>
>> The secret to beating them, those three words.
>
> Well, that's easy to *say*, but what does it really translate to??
Nothing.
Dignity
Honour
Respect
Too easy.
SuperNova
Bev Thornton wrote:
>
> SuperNova, in <3BE09D68...@hetsraeb.com>, wrote:
> >
> > I disagree that they are doing such a fine job within the borders
> > of the United States. Try "Crypto" for a book about their failures.
>
> They're no good at crypto, they have the wrong approach. They are very
> good at non-military SIGINT - eavesdropping on civilians.
Agreed... I think their technical prowess has some reputation,
and not without merit, though I would not credit the NSA solely, one
of the strongest teams is Centra Spike. The CIA has some strengths.
None of this helps much when you do not have people to analyze
the data, people who speak the various languages. Pattern recognition
is great... but get real.
>
> > Echelon is overblown.
>
> Yeah, what a joke. Totally short-sighted.
>
> > We have encryption we can use. PGP came from the United States. As a security
> > developer I can put in Rijandael or Blowfish into anything I wish with
> > complete ease... and no, the NSA can not break 256 hard encryption. They
> > can not break PGP even without a key. Which is not breaking it.
>
> And can you then do whatever you want with it?
I was supposed to license or ask approval or something for such
a thing... the laws are very awkward and unclear, though I use encryption
with applications all the time.
Regardless, I could have everything encrypted if I wished, IM, IRC,
web, news, of course. It is very easy to surmount larger groups
and organizations on the internet at this time. I mean, they hire from
the ranks of people who do not have a clue. Whereas we have been doing
this shit since carousing on the hacker BBS' in the early 80's. It
is completely natural for us to be security conscious and oriented.
People who do not understand this can not manage nor lead any
productive program of this kind. They are working outside of the
realm of their own knowledge.
I saw you were working on an IDS... do you feel that if you wanted
to you could not do anything you wished on the internet? It is nuts.
They have years to catch up.
>
> There is more to freedom than one's own yard.
>
> > Just two weeks ago the anti-globalization crowd staged an event to
> > shut down commerce in downtown Toronto. How that went I do not know.
>
> That is not terrorism. That is demonstration, it is a political action
> of civil disobediences.
You are right, that is not terrorism, civil disobediance I encourage,
as opposed to militancy.
>
> It went very well. Authorities claimed it didn't but the a-infos and tao
> organizations have a very highly-developed system of documentation and
> communication.
>
> > There were problems from the anti-globalization crowd, if I remember
> > correctly before this and currently.
>
> Yes, lots of anti-globalization demonstrations here. If it gets to be
> too big a problem then the police bear spray everybody. We have all
> sorts of demonstrations of civil disobedience. We learned it from the
> teachings of a great American thinker, Henry David Thoreau. And we are
> protected in the right.
Soulforce... are you familiar with that term?
>
> > And, of course, we are all so deeply aware of how the terrorists are
> > coming down from Canada... for instance, in the millenium attack, the
> > guy had a car full of explosives coming from Canada.
>
> They have to get there from somewhere. That is the effect of proximity.
> Do you know how many we've captured and sent packing?
I though all Canadian cops rode horses.
>
> > As for laws, it is okay in Canada to do such things as to bug jail
> > cells and such. You have a number of laws I recall hearing of which
> > greatly help these sorts of investigations which we do not.
>
> Yes. And we have had them for many years now. They are not a problem.
> they are not what they are getting in the US now, either.
Right.
>
> > Such laws that we did not have are really very foolish, like the
> > inability to run wiretaps on any phone a suspect uses.
>
> How about on any microphone, over there, way over there?
We can now have roving wiretaps, which include cellular phones,
payphones, etc, for suspects. As for "any microphone" I believe
it also includes the ability to tap computer systems.
I do not know how far it goes in regards to tapping the subject.
>
> > Neutral, we are taking a stand against Cuba, you are not.
>
> We are Cuba's largest trading partner and have been for many years. We
> take a stand FOR Cuba. In the 60's and 70's we even had a program where
> students could go to Cuba and work all summer and then come home with
> enough money for tuition. Tens of thousands over the years. I vaguely
> remember something about a stolen jet once too, can't remember exactly.
We are mad at Cuba for kicking out the Mafia.
>
> > Canada is just another state of the United States -- and you know it.
>
> We love it when you say that.
LOL.
>
> > You know how often I have been up there? You are entirely being
> > silly.
>
> Whatever you say.
>
> > McVeigh is universally demonized by the vast majority of Americans,
> > and with totally righteous cause. Characterizing a bizarre minority
> > as normal even in an indirect, perhaps unintentional way, is entirely
> > incorrect.
>
> Normal? He isn't normal. He just never should have ever been able to
> even get close to a special operations school. Profiling. We learned
> that from the Americans too. In the eighties. It was implemented after
> the Lortie incident is constantly extended and refined. We are very
> careful who we teach to improvise explosives.
>
McVeigh could have learned about using ammonium nitrate anywhere
though... I knew fertilizer had it from when I was a teenager.
> > Again, Canada is just another extension of the United States. But,
> > I am sure we have some diabolical Canadian spies around here -- LOL!
>
> Taht's right, keep smiling. Everything is all right.
You are probably a Canadian propagandist working against the poor
people of the United States. Just admit it, you work for the Canadian
government to try and turn decent Americans into Canadian moles.
>
> >> Are you sure the facts are so available?
> >
> > I am speaking of specifically in Middle Eastern conflict situations.
>
> Yeah, and how available are all the facts in the US? I've been there,
> over a year of my life. I know what access to foreign news is like
> there, I've looked for it a lot.
I can watch International News here just like in Toronto... same station
I would watch there. CNN, CNN headline news was the other main news...
the cable I picked up there had the very same stations as I have here
at home... except no french channels, and I have more, BBC, etc.
>
> > Nope, and I don't see it on the Toronto Star's front page.
>
> So? We have even bigger news than the new wood product tariffs that are
> going to cripple our economy. There's a war on and the international
> money market also didled down our dollar yesterday. Did you have a point
> with mentioning the National Enquirer, er, I mean, the Star?
>
It is the biggest Canadian paper... what source would you recommend?
> >> This is not the way to do that. There are very many better ways.
> >
> > Like what?
>
> Insurgency and diplomacy. UN occupation is good too. Peacekeepers with
> lots of relief supplies. Fridges, stoves and everything. Loya Jirga.
And, I see rawa on your sig line... you think that somehow we could
deal with the Taliban? I do not disagree that the propaganda war is
going very poorly, very much to my disliking.
>
> > Like what law? The ability to have roving wiretaps? Canadians have
> > outrageous abilities to spy on suspected criminals. Bugging jail
> > cells, for instance, is something we could never do.
>
> Too bad for you.
>
> How is it you guys get such big prisons anyway?
Because we believe in locking up criminals. We catch them, and we
lock them up. Not that I consider petty crime to be such a big deal. If
anything, we are letting some very bad offenders go.
We have a rich country... and some real poor areas as well.
>
> > Like what law are you speaking of?
>
> 107th Congress, 1st Session, H.R. 3162 USA Patriot Act of 2001
> http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html
Flashbacks of real estate law...
I do not see anything outrageous just glancing at this. I am sure
there must be something nasty in there.
>
> > I have done posts which observed the quantity of racist viewpoints
> > on the Usenet, I could do it with this. There are a lot of racists
> > that post from the United States on these groups. They are still
> > a minority, a vast, extremist minority. It does no good to say because
> > a lot of racists - about five hundred - posts tens of thousands, hundreds
> > of thousands of posts... to say that five hundred is representative
> > of the entire United States...
>
> Even five hundred is enough to make a remark about. however, there are
> far more than that. I've seen the marches in Georgia, South Carolina,
> North Carolina, with my eyes. I've seen many more than five hundred.
No, I mean of the Neo-Nazi Usenet trolls... Neo-Nazi's in the US,
don't know how many, I would guess at over a million, though, including
people like posse comitatus, KKK... though my figure may be way off...
let me see...
http://www.adl.org/antisemitism_survey/survey_main.html
The proportion of Americans holding views about Jews that are unquestionably
anti-Semitic has dropped to 12% in 1998, from 20% in 1992. -- More
So, there is some bad racism here.
http://www.adl.org/antisemitism_survey/survey_i_chart_prejudical_views.htm
But, as for flaming racism, I do not think American should be dismissed
as being flaming racist. We do a lot to try and counteract these things. It
is opposed to the grounding of what this country strives to be.
>
> And now I see people calling for genocide.
>
> Just peachy.
>
> Nothing to worry about, right? Jes sum gewd auld boyez bwowin off
> steyum? Yeah right. I've been to Boston too. I was on the bridge the day
> the guy got the flag pole drove through him at City Hall. Stuck it
> traffic, it was bad. Bus riots.
>
I do not recall that story. I did not say they are good old boys. I couldn't
express more vigilance against these groups. I am on the far side
of extremism against them. There is no rational about it to me at all.
I would not, though, submit America to the same prejudice.
> > That is following the samesort of fallacies they follow, albeit
> > not with the sort of evil that they follow.
>
> What sort is it?
>
Saying, "All Americans are..." Making sweeping generalizations like
that.
> >> They pass the girls around very young. Younger than they do in South
> >> Carolina.
> >
> > Maybe, I am just not aware of that. The skinheads I have met are
> > usually teenagers themselves. They are a very common group among
> > the skating punks and at the downtown clubs and such.
>
> Skinheads? I thought it was about how young they marry off their women
> under tha Taliban regime. They do it shortly after her first menses, not
> always but a lot.
I have no sympathy for the Taliban regime whatsoever.
I am a pretty peaceful guy, but when it comes to groups
like the Taliban, Neo-Nazi's... I hold no mercy.
>
> When skins grow-up, what do they become?
Ranting loonies with a beer belly?
>
> > Maybe, but I think that America could surprise everyone and
> > may not turn like that.
>
> That would be nice.
>
> >> >> Dignity, honour, respect - these are the weapons terrorists don't have.
> >> >
> >> > This is a very good point.
> >>
> >> The secret to beating them, those three words. There are other secrets
> >> too but they aren't words.
> >
> > LOL. Yes, maybe, but we do have a great deal of shows on these groups,
> > exposing them... and as law enforcement focuses on them, so do these
> > shows increase... so does the media light on them increase. I think that
> > people discredit us far more than we deserve, and that is unfortunate.
>
> Discredit?
>
> Wanna discuss France instead?
France sucks. It is true. They are all rude.
Susan Cohen
Bev Thornton wrote:
> Susan Cohen, in <3BE0BB8D...@hers.com>, wrote:
> >
> > Um, you may be a trifle confused.
> > The NSA is only for out-of-the-country stuff.
> > I know people who work there.
>
> Oh, ok, I'm a trifle confused. Same as these people:
> http://www.echelonwatch.org/
Yup. Ever so slightly whacko.
> > yeah - amazing how people have been blindsided by
> > empty-headed lady Di (but she should still rest in peace)
> > taking this one up.
>
> Lady Di? That was a charity.
What "that"? I'm talking about her views & public statements,
and how people view the treaty because of her - you know,
people who call their representatives & nag them?
> I was referring to a treaty.
What do you think she was going on about?
She was decrying landmines & pushing for the treaty!
> She didn't have much to do with the treaty at all. Where did you get
> that idea? She was a celebrity used to raise money.
See above.
She got in trouble with her own government for stating that
they were "hopeless" when it came to landmines, because
they wouldn't sign the treaty.
> Here's a search
> http://www.google.com/search?q=lady+diana+landmine+treaty
> and here's another
> http://www.google.com/search?q=landmine+treaty
>
> Can you see the difference?
Just because you don't think people listened to her doesn't mean
she didn't meddle where she didn;t belong & to a bad effect.
> Now, if you'd like to provide an example of how much she really was
> involved in it, I'm all eyes.
See above.
> > Uh, strange heros *bigots* have
>
> What are ones non-bigots have? Are there war heroes for non-bigots?
The people being described in the paragraph you snipped were not war heroes.
> We have them in Canada. All kinds. Laura Secord is my favourite. But
> Benedict Arnold, now that will tell you something about the character of
> the people of the Great White North.
Well, it will sure tell you about *him*.
> The 'white' is snow, by the way.
>
> > Out of wartime, what terrible thing did Audie Murphy do to
> > show that he was a threat to society for something he did
> > while under *wartime* circumstances?
>
> He was suicidal in combat. that is a threat to all the men. If such
> actions are successful, in some countries, there is no honouring of
> that. they're just the crazy guy who did the risky thing and they are
> sent to the hospital just as a matter of course, how we deal with all
> that stuff, shell shock and things.
>
> Now, if you recall, I never wrote that he was a threat, you got that out
> of nowhere;
Well, you *did* just say he w*was* a threat.
I didn;t "get it out of nowhere" - I couldn;t think of *any* reason
why you'd *want* to weed such as he *out* of the military - and
the only reason I could conceive of was if he were a threat.
> I never wrote that he even did a terrible thing, that too,
> you got out of nowhere.
See above.
> Now, you also brought-up Lady Di who is not very
> relevant at all to the treaty effort.
In your opinion.
> Why did you do all that?
See above.
> > I'm still busy apologizing for acid rain.
>
> Apology will not do. It is moot, of no value or utility. Acid rain is
> not a bad hair day. The rain is killing the Earth. It hears no apology.
> So don't bother being busy with that.
Fine.
Never mind.
Bev Thornton
Ok, try this one - http://www.epic.org/
>> Lady Di? That was a charity.
>
> What "that"? I'm talking about her views & public statements,
> and how people view the treaty because of her - you know,
> people who call their representatives & nag them?
All that was to raise money. The treaty was handled by diplomats. Lady
Di was a dimwit partygirl who was getting bad press over the breakup
with Prince Charles, so she needed to raise her sympathy level so she
signed on to raise money for ICRC deming efforts. When you saw the
pictures of her at a demining site, well, it was already demined, just
fake, and it was really to do the image improvement for her, raise money
for the ICRC and the HALO Trust.
> What do you think she was going on about?
> She was decrying landmines & pushing for the treaty!
Lip service. The only things she ever did she did for the cameras and it
was all about raising money for those charities and their demining
efforts. The letters were all written for her by an office. She devoted
maybe ten or fourteen days to the whole show. All parade and plate
dinners, that sort of thing. for the treaty, she only ever mentioned it.
> She got in trouble with her own government for stating that
> they were "hopeless" when it came to landmines, because
> they wouldn't sign the treaty.
Trouble? She couldn't get in trouble. She could get bad press, that's
it. She was the kind of person who had to have everybody love her, had
to be the center of attention. So unlike Prince Charles that I don't
know how they could ever have come to be married. Maybe Prince Charles
was a party animal when he was young. Prince Andrew sure as hell was.
> Just because you don't think people listened to her doesn't mean
> she didn't meddle where she didn;t belong & to a bad effect.
I know quite a bit about the landmine treaty. I knew and was involved
in the whole movement before the treaty was even conceived. I've worked
Royal Tours for Lady Di, Prince Andrew, Duke of Edinburgh, Princess
Anne, I know how they live and what they do. they are ok people except
Princess Anne, she is nasty and demanding. Lady Di, she was a
self-centered jetsetter who liked fancy parties and shopping. She
likely made Prince Charles's life miserable. she gave very little time
to the landmine effort, everything was done for her. She stood in front
of the cameras and said nice things. Her attention did raise one hell of
a lot of money but it was for demining, ICRC and HALO Trust.
> See above.
Well, all that was media show. She provided endorsement to the charity
fundraisers, that is what she really did. Very hard working diplomats
and hundreds of volunteers worked for very many years to bring the
treaty into existence and get it to where it is today, 121 countries.
> Well, it will sure tell you about *him*.
Ou stories and histories of Benedict Arnold are different than the
American ones.
>> Now, if you recall, I never wrote that he was a threat, you got that out
>> of nowhere;
>
> Well, you *did* just say he w*was* a threat.
I repeated the word since it came up. When I brought up Audie Murphy I
only mentioned that he wouldn't likely be a war hero in canada because
of the nature of his exploits. After the first one, we'd have sent him
to the mental hospital. SOP.
> I didn;t "get it out of nowhere" - I couldn;t think of *any* reason
> why you'd *want* to weed such as he *out* of the military - and
> the only reason I could conceive of was if he were a threat.
Weed him out because he was suicidal and a suicidal man has no place on
a battlefield, on a patrol, on any sort of mission at all, even a
suicide mission. The suicidality can jeopardize the mission.
Scrubashrub
spewed:
::So unlike Prince Charles that I don't
::know how they could ever have come to be married
She had the requisite blue-blood background and Charles is as homely
as a horse (plus he has no real job).
Bev Thornton
Prince Charles is a good guy. He does a ton of good work that no one
ever hears about. Believe it or not, he has fine thought, and impeccable
taste. He knows a lot about buildings, architecture, and about what
cities should look like, how they should work. He can enrich anyone's
understanding of such things, even an accomplished architect. Well, as
long as they can appreciate the view of an artist, he has that too.
What is so amazing about them is the life they lead and that they are so
normal. The actual Royal Family, I mean. They seem to marry not so well.
And Princess Anne is just plain mean. Or used to be anyway, when she was
younger. I like the Duke the best. He is too cool. He does a lot no one
ever sees too. A good man. honourable.
Bev Thornton
>
> Agreed... I think their technical prowess has some reputation,
> and not without merit, though I would not credit the NSA solely, one
> of the strongest teams is Centra Spike. The CIA has some strengths.
what is Centra Spike?
> None of this helps much when you do not have people to analyze
> the data, people who speak the various languages. Pattern recognition
> is great... but get real.
They have always had a problem with that. The CIA who operate here in
Canada, they are very arrogant and seem to me to be the kind of people
who wouldn't like someone who speaks a different language. So maybe that
is an agancy thing and they just don't hire enough of the people they
don't like. I have no idea. They spend a fortune on utterly useless
gadgets, they could use that money to hire tons of linguists, but they
don't. Instead they build Predator planes, what a waste. The navy has
had better for forty years.
> I was supposed to license or ask approval or something for such
> a thing... the laws are very awkward and unclear, though I use encryption
> with applications all the time.
The licensing there is bizarre but the real problem comes when you want
to use certain encyrption technologies across the border. There are
limitations.
> to you could not do anything you wished on the internet? It is nuts.
> They have years to catch up.
The Internet was never really designed to be used the way we are using
it. The Internet was designed to be on a trusted system. The way the
private service providers connect us together there is no trusted system
outside their own servers so the rest of us have our machines out
hanging in the wind.
And windows XP. I am dreading that.
> You are right, that is not terrorism, civil disobediance I encourage,
> as opposed to militancy.
There's a purge on here. Getting out the fifths who give the movements
bad names.
> Soulforce... are you familiar with that term?
No, what is it?
> I though all Canadian cops rode horses.
There are more in New York. There are some horses in a few cities. There
is the Musical Ride, a performing troop of cops. that is a big deal,
very fine animals, warmbloods.
> We can now have roving wiretaps, which include cellular phones,
> payphones, etc, for suspects. As for "any microphone" I believe
> it also includes the ability to tap computer systems.
I wonder if they have the technology. It seems Canada is going to share
all the technology now. Some of the politicians have hinted
that way. there is real fancy radio stuff here.
> I do not know how far it goes in regards to tapping the subject.
In another thread a cop says that in the states they can't even bug a
prisoner's cell. To me that sounds ridiculous.
> We are mad at Cuba for kicking out the Mafia.
Maybe. Sure seems strange. The embargo has always been a farce. Maybe
for awhile in the sixties it was real but not for more than four years,
I know students were going there in summers four years later.
>> > Canada is just another state of the United States -- and you know it.
>>
>> We love it when you say that.
>
> LOL.
It's true. There are Canadians who want to sell us to the states, or get
us annexed. There are Americans who want it to happen too, they spend
many millions lobbying here for it. But the average Canadian is
terrified of annexation. We don't want your laws and gigantic prisons,
we don't want loonies running around with guns, we don't want all those
gang criminals, we have too many already. Some people who live in urban
areas here still don't lock their doors. More in the burbs and a lot of
people in the rural areas. If we get annexed, we will fight back and we
aren't Puerto Ricans.
> McVeigh could have learned about using ammonium nitrate anywhere
> though... I knew fertilizer had it from when I was a teenager.
Yes, but no sense helping him along with special operations training.
People with his sort of personality and interests should never be let
near that kind of training.
> You are probably a Canadian propagandist working against the poor
> people of the United States. Just admit it, you work for the Canadian
> government to try and turn decent Americans into Canadian moles.
Nah, Americans are ok. Thomas Jefferson was an American. I got a big lip
on for those spooks, have ever since I met some. Now this war and I take
a look and holy smoke! they're running the show now. We're all in big
trouble.
I'm a hobbyist propagandist. This group, I read it for awhile and then
got kind of pissed over misinformation and racism so started posting.
Genocide really disturbs me.
> I can watch International News here just like in Toronto... same station
> I would watch there. CNN, CNN headline news was the other main news...
> the cable I picked up there had the very same stations as I have here
> at home... except no french channels, and I have more, BBC, etc.
No CBC, CTV? That CNN news is kind of vacuous. and so full of
propaganda, it's the party line. There is another news network I get
from the states but it is even worse. I like the BBC broadcast news
best.
> It is the biggest Canadian paper... what source would you recommend?
Globe and Mail for a national one. Canadian newspapers suck. That Boston
one, Christian Science Monitor, or mayb just the Monitor, it is a good
one and the Guardian from England, another good one.
> And, I see rawa on your sig line... you think that somehow we could
> deal with the Taliban? I do not disagree that the propaganda war is
> going very poorly, very much to my disliking.
It is too late to deal with the Taliban unless something unexpected
happens from their end. Abdul Haq was the last chance. And there is no
way he would have walked in there if he thought he could be connected to
the CIA or even the coalition. The voice message, "save us" and all
that, what a crock.
Everytime I think about it I am amazed. bin Laden was arrested and
awaiting jirga for extradition and Bush blew it. Clinton blew the exact
same situation in 1998. Same thing, refusal to entertain the sharia
courts. Ridiculous. Utter failure of diplomacy. Demands. The world
doens't work that way. That is just Hollywood movie routine.
> Because we believe in locking up criminals. We catch them, and we
> lock them up. Not that I consider petty crime to be such a big deal. If
> anything, we are letting some very bad offenders go.
Ok, then, how is it you have so damn many criminals?
Like, look how many people are in prison down there. It is kind of
ridiculous compared to any other industrialized nations and the crime
rate is absurd. Especially murder. The likelihood of death by murder is
so high. I've never been able to understand why.
> We have a rich country... and some real poor areas as well.
A lot of countries are like that but they don't have Bloods and Crypts
and things running the sidewalks at night.
>> 107th Congress, 1st Session, H.R. 3162 USA Patriot Act of 2001
>> http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html
>
> Flashbacks of real estate law...
Yeah.
> I do not see anything outrageous just glancing at this. I am sure
> there must be something nasty in there.
Too soon to know. Have to wait to see how the courts will interpret
everything. Could be bad.
> No, I mean of the Neo-Nazi Usenet trolls... Neo-Nazi's in the US,
> don't know how many, I would guess at over a million, though, including
> people like posse comitatus, KKK... though my figure may be way off...
> let me see...
A million? Now I am scared.
> So, there is some bad racism here.
I didn't know it was that bad. I only saw some weird stuff down south
and in Boston. And a guy in Georgia once told me he hated all white
people because of what they did to him and his family and he told me
stuff that was mighty strange.
> But, as for flaming racism, I do not think American should be dismissed
> as being flaming racist. We do a lot to try and counteract these things. It
> is opposed to the grounding of what this country strives to be.
The only way to get rid of racism is education. It is an effect of
ignorance.
> I would not, though, submit America to the same prejudice.
I've had good times in juke joints down south and deep in Harlem. When
people there find out you're Canadian, they treat you different because
there is the underground railroad myth still there.
The term 'boy' is a bit of a problem. We call people 'boy' when we like
them, an endearment. kind of the opposite down there.
> Saying, "All Americans are..." Making sweeping generalizations like
> that.
That is to get the goat. Kind of like mirroring, all muslims are...
> I have no sympathy for the Taliban regime whatsoever.
The Northern Alliance is no better. Something real fishy is going on
there. they have a new 'spokesman' now and he doesn't look like he's
been in country in years. He looks like a Marseille arms dealer.
> I am a pretty peaceful guy, but when it comes to groups
> like the Taliban, Neo-Nazi's... I hold no mercy.
They can be destroyed without killing them.
Hearts and minds. It works if you know how.
>> When skins grow-up, what do they become?
>
> Ranting loonies with a beer belly?
Maybe. maybe something worse. I wonder about that.
>> Wanna discuss France instead?
>
> France sucks. It is true. They are all rude.
That is just their way. Like Germans have their way and the British and
so on. Every nationality has a bunch of characters that go with it.
France, people from the south, I don't remember, maybe over by Spain,
somewhere there, they can be real nice. Not like Parisians.
I wonder why we're not renting the Legion. it is merc force now. That
too seems a little fishy to me because the French are a target too, al
Qaeda cell already got caught trying to crashbomb the Eiffel Tower. If
they go chasing al Qaeda loose cannon then they will mess things up even
worse than it is now.
Susan Cohen
Scrubashrub wrote:
Wow - three strikes in one shot!
Susan
SuperNova
Bev Thornton wrote:
>
> SuperNova, in <3BE0D192...@hetsraeb.com>, wrote:
> >
> > Agreed... I think their technical prowess has some reputation,
> > and not without merit, though I would not credit the NSA solely, one
> > of the strongest teams is Centra Spike. The CIA has some strengths.
>
> what is Centra Spike?
A mobile technical intelligence special forces team... they played a big
part in a number of actions, I heard of them from their work in Columbia
where they helped pinpoint the location of him via his cell phone usage
using planes and scanners.
>
> > None of this helps much when you do not have people to analyze
> > the data, people who speak the various languages. Pattern recognition
> > is great... but get real.
>
> They have always had a problem with that. The CIA who operate here in
> Canada, they are very arrogant and seem to me to be the kind of people
> who wouldn't like someone who speaks a different language. So maybe that
> is an agancy thing and they just don't hire enough of the people they
> don't like. I have no idea. They spend a fortune on utterly useless
> gadgets, they could use that money to hire tons of linguists, but they
> don't. Instead they build Predator planes, what a waste. The navy has
> had better for forty years.
The CIA is very incompetent in the arena of human intelligence,
as everybody knows now. They have a very good reputation for technical
intelligence. They are definitely very stuffy and rigid, not as much
as the FBI has been historically -- who amazingly had Hoover whom
denied the existance of the Cosa Nostra. (Though, the FBI has later
played a large part in practically dismantling the Cosa Nostra here).
We generally rely on more seasoned, rough and ready action for
these sorts of operations from groups like Delta Force. Regardless,
I can not say they are doing their job or that they do have everything
together. I disagree they are doing all they can, and believe they
are very stodgy and slow moving.
If you want to penetrate these networks, you have to get people
on the ground, get linquist's, infilitrate groups. It is simply not
that hard.
>
> > I was supposed to license or ask approval or something for such
> > a thing... the laws are very awkward and unclear, though I use encryption
> > with applications all the time.
>
> The licensing there is bizarre but the real problem comes when you want
> to use certain encyrption technologies across the border. There are
> limitations.
I ignore them, they can sue me. Encryption is something that has
to be dealt with. If there is someone you want to tap, it is far too
easy to do so from their system, remotely, silently. There is no
excuse.
>
> > to you could not do anything you wished on the internet? It is nuts.
> > They have years to catch up.
>
> The Internet was never really designed to be used the way we are using
> it. The Internet was designed to be on a trusted system. The way the
> private service providers connect us together there is no trusted system
> outside their own servers so the rest of us have our machines out
> hanging in the wind.
>
> And windows XP. I am dreading that.
Yes, yes.
>
> > You are right, that is not terrorism, civil disobediance I encourage,
> > as opposed to militancy.
>
> There's a purge on here. Getting out the fifths who give the movements
> bad names.
>
> > Soulforce... are you familiar with that term?
>
> No, what is it?
Gandhi's concept of passive resistance, the name he gave to
it. Satygara, I believe is the equivalent word for it.
>
> > I though all Canadian cops rode horses.
>
> There are more in New York. There are some horses in a few cities. There
> is the Musical Ride, a performing troop of cops. that is a big deal,
> very fine animals, warmbloods.
>
> > We can now have roving wiretaps, which include cellular phones,
> > payphones, etc, for suspects. As for "any microphone" I believe
> > it also includes the ability to tap computer systems.
>
> I wonder if they have the technology. It seems Canada is going to share
> all the technology now. Some of the politicians have hinted
> that way. there is real fancy radio stuff here.
We do, too... I don't know what you have... radio stuff, you can
get a nice box that connects to your laptop to get every channel
imaginable and with the right antennae get it from anywhere. For
cell phones you just have to decode the digital signal.
As for remote stuff, they have had laser ones for awhile, just point
at the window and record. Years now they have had that. You can
buy one cheaply. You can even get GPS monitors for cars now at
your local store.
>
> > I do not know how far it goes in regards to tapping the subject.
>
> In another thread a cop says that in the states they can't even bug a
> prisoner's cell. To me that sounds ridiculous.
No we can't, and I do not recall what all else Canada had they
we did not... I recall in some books it was jaw dropping for me,
some serial killer case or something.
>
> > We are mad at Cuba for kicking out the Mafia.
>
> Maybe. Sure seems strange. The embargo has always been a farce. Maybe
> for awhile in the sixties it was real but not for more than four years,
> I know students were going there in summers four years later.
I was just joking... I don't really know what to think about it, I
do not like totalitarianism... it doesn't allow freedom of speech, press,
or religion.
>
> >> > Canada is just another state of the United States -- and you know it.
> >>
> >> We love it when you say that.
> >
> > LOL.
>
> It's true. There are Canadians who want to sell us to the states, or get
> us annexed. There are Americans who want it to happen too, they spend
> many millions lobbying here for it. But the average Canadian is
> terrified of annexation. We don't want your laws and gigantic prisons,
> we don't want loonies running around with guns, we don't want all those
> gang criminals, we have too many already. Some people who live in urban
> areas here still don't lock their doors. More in the burbs and a lot of
> people in the rural areas. If we get annexed, we will fight back and we
> aren't Puerto Ricans.
That is life in the big cities, lol.
>
> > McVeigh could have learned about using ammonium nitrate anywhere
> > though... I knew fertilizer had it from when I was a teenager.
>
> Yes, but no sense helping him along with special operations training.
> People with his sort of personality and interests should never be let
> near that kind of training.
True... and we have racists in the military, why they are not weeded
out I do not know.
>
> > You are probably a Canadian propagandist working against the poor
> > people of the United States. Just admit it, you work for the Canadian
> > government to try and turn decent Americans into Canadian moles.
>
> Nah, Americans are ok. Thomas Jefferson was an American. I got a big lip
> on for those spooks, have ever since I met some. Now this war and I take
> a look and holy smoke! they're running the show now. We're all in big
> trouble.
>
> I'm a hobbyist propagandist. This group, I read it for awhile and then
> got kind of pissed over misinformation and racism so started posting.
> Genocide really disturbs me.
>
> > I can watch International News here just like in Toronto... same station
> > I would watch there. CNN, CNN headline news was the other main news...
> > the cable I picked up there had the very same stations as I have here
> > at home... except no french channels, and I have more, BBC, etc.
>
> No CBC, CTV? That CNN news is kind of vacuous. and so full of
> propaganda, it's the party line. There is another news network I get
> from the states but it is even worse. I like the BBC broadcast news
> best.
I get CBC on cable.
>
> > It is the biggest Canadian paper... what source would you recommend?
>
> Globe and Mail for a national one. Canadian newspapers suck. That Boston
> one, Christian Science Monitor, or mayb just the Monitor, it is a good
> one and the Guardian from England, another good one.
>
csmonitor? Has had some good articles, though:
http://www.csmonitor.com/aboutus/about_the_monitor.html
"No, it's a real newspaper published by a church — The First Church of Christ,
Scientist in Boston, Mass., USA. Everything in the Monitor is international and
US news and features, except for one religious article that has appeared each
day in the Home Forum section since 1908, at the request of the paper's founder,
Mary Baker Eddy."
I won't get into an argument about their beliefs. I do not consider
Mary Baker Eddy to be "scientific" anymore than I consider L Ron
Hubbard to be so.
> > And, I see rawa on your sig line... you think that somehow we could
> > deal with the Taliban? I do not disagree that the propaganda war is
> > going very poorly, very much to my disliking.
>
> It is too late to deal with the Taliban unless something unexpected
> happens from their end. Abdul Haq was the last chance. And there is no
> way he would have walked in there if he thought he could be connected to
> the CIA or even the coalition. The voice message, "save us" and all
> that, what a crock.
>
> Everytime I think about it I am amazed. bin Laden was arrested and
> awaiting jirga for extradition and Bush blew it. Clinton blew the exact
> same situation in 1998. Same thing, refusal to entertain the sharia
> courts. Ridiculous. Utter failure of diplomacy. Demands. The world
> doens't work that way. That is just Hollywood movie routine.
I do not consider Laden such a big deal. Killing him won't solve
the world's problems. He did kill millions of Hindus. He didn't kill
millions of Sudanese. He is not the one who okayed slavery in Sudan.
He is not the first Islamic terrorist, and he will not be the last.
>
> > Because we believe in locking up criminals. We catch them, and we
> > lock them up. Not that I consider petty crime to be such a big deal. If
> > anything, we are letting some very bad offenders go.
>
> Ok, then, how is it you have so damn many criminals?
>
> Like, look how many people are in prison down there. It is kind of
> ridiculous compared to any other industrialized nations and the crime
> rate is absurd. Especially murder. The likelihood of death by murder is
> so high. I've never been able to understand why.
It was really hard to get solid information on this subject. I do
study crime but from the perspective of primarily forensic psychology.
This page has the UN's statistic's online:
http://www.haciendapub.com/stolinsky.html
A picture of the Suicide and Homocide rates in 86 countries. At the
UN site I found that it is required to order this book to get it.
This is for 1996.
Canada had a 13.4 per 100,000 for suicide.
United States had a 11.9 per 100,000 for suicide.
Canada had a 1.7 per 100,000 for homocide.
United States had a 9.4 per 100,000 for homocide.
United States is up there, though Russia was four times as
much.
Violent crime in the United States is on a decline.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/cv2.htm
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/hmrt.htm#longterm
1997 was actually near the top of the trend.
Now we are about at 6 or so per 100,000.
Looking at my city, Austin, compared to various Canadian cities (the last
appears
to be the worst):
Crime Category Austin, Texas Quebec City, Canada
Robberies 156 229
Rapes 36 59
Homicides 4 1
Aggravated Assaults 255 692
Motor Vehicle Thefts 426 31
Crime Lab Index 94 131
Crime Category Austin, Texas Montreal, Canada
Robberies 156 336
Rapes 36 55
Homicides 4 3
Aggravated Assaults 255 843
Motor Vehicle Thefts 426 28
Crime Lab Index 94 166
Crime Category Austin, Texas Toronto, Canada
Robberies 156 219
Rapes 36 76
Homicides 4 2
Aggravated Assaults 255 956
Motor Vehicle Thefts 426 17
Crime Lab Index 94 165
Crime Category Austin, Texas Vancouver, Canada
Robberies 156 479
Rapes 36 103
Homicides 4 6
Aggravated Assaults 255 1026
Motor Vehicle Thefts 426 740
Crime Lab Index 94 256
So, I do not really know what the big deal is. Looks like
Canada has some pretty serious problems of their own.
>
> > We have a rich country... and some real poor areas as well.
>
> A lot of countries are like that but they don't have Bloods and Crypts
> and things running the sidewalks at night.
I have lived in Hispanic gang territory in Dallas before. I knew
a guy who was into the gang. There were gunshots almost every night.
Every other place I have lived is not like that. I don't have
anything to fear from the "bloods" or the "crypts". They generally
kill each other... when that was really going on, more back
in the 80's than now. Generally, you never see them.
As you can see above, your large cities have problems with
crime just as ours do. In some of our cities we do have ruthless
criminals who do a lot of killing. We have a shoot em up,
Wild West history. So does a lot of South and Central America
where the "bandito" legends live. Honestly, I respect that
culture.
>
> >> 107th Congress, 1st Session, H.R. 3162 USA Patriot Act of 2001
> >> http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html
> >
> > Flashbacks of real estate law...
>
> Yeah.
>
> > I do not see anything outrageous just glancing at this. I am sure
> > there must be something nasty in there.
>
> Too soon to know. Have to wait to see how the courts will interpret
> everything. Could be bad.
>
> > No, I mean of the Neo-Nazi Usenet trolls... Neo-Nazi's in the US,
> > don't know how many, I would guess at over a million, though, including
> > people like posse comitatus, KKK... though my figure may be way off...
> > let me see...
>
> A million? Now I am scared.
I don't know any. I have known some when I was into punk
scenes and such, skinheads. They were on the fringes, and
I have been in two altercations with them. Nothing that
was more than a brief but heated argument.
I remember at one famous show in Dallas there was some
serious bloodiness.
They used to walk around like morons in the mosh pits.
As for rallies, I have never heard of one here in Austin...
and do not recall any in Dallas when living there... nor
in Utah... nor in Minnesota...
There are a lot of racist's, though, white racists. Every
place I have worked has been integrated. Wherever they are,
they are hiding well enough. I know they are out there,
as you can find from interviews and statistics and such.
>
> > So, there is some bad racism here.
>
> I didn't know it was that bad. I only saw some weird stuff down south
> and in Boston. And a guy in Georgia once told me he hated all white
> people because of what they did to him and his family and he told me
> stuff that was mighty strange.
I don't know any. They are as likely to beaten up for
expressing these view at work or in public as not. By whites
or by blacks... everybody is against them.
>
> > But, as for flaming racism, I do not think American should be dismissed
> > as being flaming racist. We do a lot to try and counteract these things. It
> > is opposed to the grounding of what this country strives to be.
>
> The only way to get rid of racism is education. It is an effect of
> ignorance.
We have anti-racist shows on television all the time. We have
plenty of movies on the subject. Cable covers the subjects all
the time, I watched three shows this Saturday on them.
>
> > I would not, though, submit America to the same prejudice.
>
> I've had good times in juke joints down south and deep in Harlem. When
> people there find out you're Canadian, they treat you different because
> there is the underground railroad myth still there.
>
> The term 'boy' is a bit of a problem. We call people 'boy' when we like
> them, an endearment. kind of the opposite down there.
Same as "nigger" down here.
>
> > Saying, "All Americans are..." Making sweeping generalizations like
> > that.
>
> That is to get the goat. Kind of like mirroring, all muslims are...
>
> > I have no sympathy for the Taliban regime whatsoever.
>
> The Northern Alliance is no better. Something real fishy is going on
> there. they have a new 'spokesman' now and he doesn't look like he's
> been in country in years. He looks like a Marseille arms dealer.
No idea... I like the Northern Alliance better, but they
have a bad record. I do not consider them as bad as the
Taliban. I have read the RAWA articles.
>
> > I am a pretty peaceful guy, but when it comes to groups
> > like the Taliban, Neo-Nazi's... I hold no mercy.
>
> They can be destroyed without killing them.
>
> Hearts and minds. It works if you know how.
I disagree that this would work when you have to deal
with their laws and their religion. It is extremely
hard to deal with fanatics.
>
> >> When skins grow-up, what do they become?
> >
> > Ranting loonies with a beer belly?
>
> Maybe. maybe something worse. I wonder about that.
Skinheads are morons.
I lift weights, so do a lot of people. And, that is all
they have is being physically imposing -- which they aren't.
What else? Guns? I am sick of that issue. I don't care
if you sleep with a gun. Kids who play Time Crisis
for months on end are better shots.
Skinheads sit around in clubs, a outsider looking in.
They are worthless.
>
> >> Wanna discuss France instead?
> >
> > France sucks. It is true. They are all rude.
>
> That is just their way. Like Germans have their way and the British and
> so on. Every nationality has a bunch of characters that go with it.
> France, people from the south, I don't remember, maybe over by Spain,
> somewhere there, they can be real nice. Not like Parisians.
I was just joking, I was considering a position there.
>
> I wonder why we're not renting the Legion. it is merc force now. That
> too seems a little fishy to me because the French are a target too, al
> Qaeda cell already got caught trying to crashbomb the Eiffel Tower. If
> they go chasing al Qaeda loose cannon then they will mess things up even
> worse than it is now.
France is a big terrorist target and remains one. It is a big thing
to ask to put in troops as of yet, though. I am for troops. It can
reduce civilian casualities perhaps and help sympathy. We can help
win this war faster with troops.
Bev Thornton
>
> A mobile technical intelligence special forces team... they played a big
> part in a number of actions, I heard of them from their work in Columbia
> where they helped pinpoint the location of him via his cell phone usage
> using planes and scanners.
That's no big deal. Three hams can do that. no planes required.
> The CIA is very incompetent in the arena of human intelligence,
Well, if they needed planes to triangulate osama on a cell or sat phone
I would say they are incompetent at sigint too.
> as everybody knows now. They have a very good reputation for technical
> intelligence.
They do? Show me some. Or some reference that mentions that reputation.
> They are definitely very stuffy and rigid,
You've apparently never met any of the field operators. There are some
memoirs and biographies. I like John Paul Vann's by Neil Sheehan. Have a
look, it's interesting. Won a Pulitzer too. _A Bright Shining Lie_
> as the FBI has been historically -- who amazingly had Hoover whom
> denied the existance of the Cosa Nostra. (Though, the FBI has later
> played a large part in practically dismantling the Cosa Nostra here).
Our friends are all gone? When did that happen?
Who hauls the garbage in Manhattan these days?
> We generally rely on more seasoned, rough and ready action for
> these sorts of operations from groups like Delta Force.
Why?
> I can not say they are doing their job or that they do have everything
> together. I disagree they are doing all they can, and believe they
> are very stodgy and slow moving.
They sure aren't slow to making messes of things. Abdul Haq's mission
for one just recently.
> If you want to penetrate these networks, you have to get people
> on the ground, get linquist's, infilitrate groups. It is simply not
> that hard.
That's right. If the financing is there is is a cinch. You should see
what the Brits do with almost no money at all. In int, they do have a
good reputation. At least, in some countries they do.
>> The licensing there is bizarre but the real problem comes when you want
>> to use certain encyrption technologies across the border. There are
>> limitations.
>
> I ignore them, they can sue me. Encryption is something that has
> to be dealt with. If there is someone you want to tap, it is far too
> easy to do so from their system, remotely, silently. There is no
> excuse.
Sue you? Better read this:
http://www.epic.org/crypto/export_controls.html
The US Deptartment of State is serious about that. Very serious. Don't
get caught.
> Gandhi's concept of passive resistance, the name he gave to
> it. Satygara, I believe is the equivalent word for it.
Satygara? That would be 'great gentle awareness,' I think. Are you
sure that's how to spell it? Could it be sat-ya-ghara? Great gentle pot?
Hindu oes not have the same kind of soul as in the west, they have the
atman concept. So 'ghara' is sometimes used for something that means a
bunch of people who are together spiritually, as a group in that way.
Ghandi and his followers often used the practice, satyaghara, which is
like a big, whole bunch of people, 'great' or 'sat', and togther in
spirit, 'ghara' and gentle, 'ya' from ahimsa.
Where does the term 'soulforce' come from? Is there some author who
equates that term to satyaghara? that seems kind of misleading to me if
that is what it is, satyaghara is not 'force,' and it is kind of plural.
Is it one of those New Age things?
> We do, too... I don't know what you have...
They're selling video cell phones some places now. On CNN I saw a piece
where there was this new prototype technology being tested in Japan,
video cell phones, and then when the local ads came on right after, they
were selling them here. I got a laugh out of that. The other ad from
last year too, about the kid using the phone to find out when the bus
comes, like this is some pioneering technology in place, well, in Canada
in some cities it is old. you just press in the number of the bus and
your stop and the phone tells you when the next bus is, used to be just
voice but some places have text too. so that was funny. Canada is very
advanced in radiocommunications and telephony. and now we're going to
give it all away to all the coalition countries.
Someone owes us and Mexico a couple satellites too. We haven't pinned
that on anybody yet but it was kind of obvious. Some country better be
nice to us because we never made a stink about that. We'll get ours out
of it though. We always do.
> buy one cheaply. You can even get GPS monitors for cars now at
> your local store.
Can you order some cars with them built-in? We have them here. I'm
pretty sure some of them are American brands too. I like that satelitte
thing but it is expensive, onstar is it? something like that. you must
have that there.
Are you guys allowed to own all this kind of counter surveillance stuff
without a license, some countries people aren't:
http://www.spycityonline.com/
I'm sure they'll ship no matter what though. Some companies here
even ship marijuana seeds to the states, mailorder. We love yankee
dollars.
>> In another thread a cop says that in the states they can't even bug a
>> prisoner's cell. To me that sounds ridiculous.
>
> No we can't, and I do not recall what all else Canada had they
> we did not... I recall in some books it was jaw dropping for me,
> some serial killer case or something.
Oh, yeah, those guys have no privacy whatsoever, not a whit. Like, they
have to be kept in the prisons and we have to make sure all the
prisoners are safe. So the psychos get treated that way. Arsonists and
serial sex offenders too. And the odd other weirdos.
Very different here. There are reasons we have less violent crime.
> I was just joking... I don't really know what to think about it, I
> do not like totalitarianism... it doesn't allow freedom of speech, press,
> or religion.
Tito was ok. Castro is too. And believe it or not, Muammar Qadhafi is
not at all what Americans think. Not even close. The only one you guys
got right is Hussein.
> That is life in the big cities, lol.
We have big cities too, and we like them as they are - safe.
>> Yes, but no sense helping him along with special operations training.
>> People with his sort of personality and interests should never be let
>> near that kind of training.
>
> True... and we have racists in the military, why they are not weeded
> out I do not know.
We've had several purges over the years but it is hard to get them all
because they hide each other and right-wing racist types are attracted
to arms and some of them are smart enough to hide it. Maybe it is the
same problem there. Any kind of -ism has no place in a soldier's mind.
While working, that is.
> I won't get into an argument about their beliefs. I do not consider
> Mary Baker Eddy to be "scientific" anymore than I consider L Ron
> Hubbard to be so.
Yeah, but the Monitor is independent and the editors have scruples.
There is a token religious page somewhere in it, after that it is heavy
journalism with little bias. Unbiased papers are few and far between in
the days of the Thompsons, Blacks, Irvings and the rest of the great
newspaper chains. And that is now.
> I do not consider Laden such a big deal. Killing him won't solve
> the world's problems. He did kill millions of Hindus. He didn't kill
> millions of Sudanese. He is not the one who okayed slavery in Sudan.
Kill him and we lose. to win the propaganda war against terrorism he
must be tried before the world and languished into corruption so that he
may be re-exposed to his followers in corrupt form. That is the only way
we can win clean. That way, one man takes down almost all of them
because the followers lose faith in their leader. If he is 'martyed' in
any way, even by state execution, his memory will serve as a focus for
the minds of those who would do terror.
To bad we couldn't have got Hitler that way. And executing a lot of the
Nazis was a mistake because we lost the opportunity for the subversion
of the leadership so that they could be presented to the neo-nazis as
failures in themselves rather than just the ones who got beat way back
when.
> He is not the first Islamic terrorist, and he will not be the last.
There will always be some no matter what. sociopaths like Manson trying
to start a race war. They aren't all religious. Trendies and hoods like
the Baader-Meinhoff gang. Some are purely political. And then there is
the absurd, such as the Symbionese Liberation Army.
I do not believe Patty Hearst had Stockholm Syndrome. Did she ever do
any time?
> United States is up there, though Russia was four times as
> much.
There are differences in reporting. for instance, in Canada, not so many
people accidentally shoot themselves while cleaning a rifle anymore if
you know what I mean.
> Violent crime in the United States is on a decline.
Good. Do people sense it that way? Are the neighbourhoods actually
safer? A decline in crime can mean increasing criminal sophistication
because the figures rely on reporting and detection.
> So, I do not really know what the big deal is. Looks like
> Canada has some pretty serious problems of their own.
Then why do we feel safe and have all along?
I think our police are more effective and our reporting is better. i've
been all over the US east coast and have seen the difference in the
communities. Rural, suburban and urban.
Want to see something else that will puzzle you? Look at the levels of
incarceration.
> I have lived in Hispanic gang territory in Dallas before. I knew
> a guy who was into the gang. There were gunshots almost every night.
There is no place in Canada like that. And you think we have serious
problems?
> Every other place I have lived is not like that. I don't have
> anything to fear from the "bloods" or the "crypts". They generally
> kill each other... when that was really going on, more back
> in the 80's than now. Generally, you never see them.
I almost got run over by an all-white gang in Eugene, Oregon in 1998.
They were after my camera gear, I think. They tried to run me over
several times. I was at the top of that big hill there, on foot, and
soon as I left the peak they started chasing me with pickup trucks and
jeeps. And that was supposed to be some hippie town. My ass.
I've never been to Texas though, don't now what it is like there.
> As you can see above, your large cities have problems with
> crime just as ours do. In some of our cities we do have ruthless
> criminals who do a lot of killing. We have a shoot em up,
> Wild West history. So does a lot of South and Central America
> where the "bandito" legends live. Honestly, I respect that
> culture.
Well, you guys can keep it. We like our stats just the way they are.
Did you know in some cities we give the streetwalkers free 911 phones?
We work hard to keep our crime statistics high because it really is all
about detection and reporting rather than what all is actually
happening.
> I don't know any. I have known some when I was into punk
> scenes and such, skinheads. They were on the fringes, and
> I have been in two altercations with them. Nothing that
> was more than a brief but heated argument.
We have hate crime laws in Canada to take care of them. So far, it is
going pretty good but there is trouble with this RAHOWA movement because
they moved their material to web servers in the US and that is allowing
them to continue networking and recruiting. They're terrorists, they
want to provoke a race war. These jerks - http://www.rahowa.com/
There are Canadian racists and neo-nazis behind a lot of that movement.
> There are a lot of racist's, though, white racists. Every
> place I have worked has been integrated. Wherever they are,
> they are hiding well enough. I know they are out there,
> as you can find from interviews and statistics and such.
The schools should address that, the elementary, middle and high
schools. That is where to combat racism, at least that is where the
primary focus of anti-racist activity in Canada focuses.
> I don't know any. They are as likely to beaten up for
> expressing these view at work or in public as not. By whites
> or by blacks... everybody is against them.
But not the law? Why can RAHOWA operate their Internet propaganda
machine in the US? Here, what they do is a crime.
>> The only way to get rid of racism is education. It is an effect of
>> ignorance.
>
> We have anti-racist shows on television all the time. We have
> plenty of movies on the subject. Cable covers the subjects all
> the time, I watched three shows this Saturday on them.
Television, film and theatre doesn't work, it is the nature of the
medium. Only person-to-person educational encounter effectively deals
with issues such as racism. Cultural works such as painting, sculpture,
actual physical objects, still images, they can help too but the nature
of the motion picture image and of play story prevents certain sorts of
learning experiences from occurring. It's biological.
>> The term 'boy' is a bit of a problem. We call people 'boy' when we like
>> them, an endearment. kind of the opposite down there.
>
> Same as "nigger" down here.
Yeah, and that gets Canadians in tight spots sometimes because here,
'boy' is for your buddies or is something you say to someone when you're
being nice. "eh, boy?" is an accolade at times.
> No idea... I like the Northern Alliance better, but they
> have a bad record. I do not consider them as bad as the
> Taliban. I have read the RAWA articles.
The Northern Alliance is a bunch of fundamentalist warlords,
narco-terrorist gangs and socialist rebels fighting together. They
double-cross each other all the time and simply can't be trusted.
>> Hearts and minds. It works if you know how.
>
> I disagree that this would work when you have to deal
> with their laws and their religion. It is extremely
> hard to deal with fanatics.
Depends on how it is done. Disgracing and corrupting leaders of such
movements has very wide effect. Disproving their arguments and the
concerns of their followers by deed as well as word subverts the entire
movement and causes reformed members to further the subversion. The idea
is to get the organization or the movement to dismantle itself.
> France is a big terrorist target and remains one. It is a big thing
> to ask to put in troops as of yet, though. I am for troops. It can
> reduce civilian casualities perhaps and help sympathy. We can help
> win this war faster with troops.
France committed an act of terror against Canada not too long ago. A
French agent bombed the Rainbow Warrior and killed one of the crew. they
did it in a harbour in New Zealand so they also committed an act of
terror against them. They were also suspected of invlovement in both of
the major terrorist gangs we had here, the FLQ and Direct Action. It was
16 years ago they bobmed the Warrior, 19 year ago the Direct Action
bombings and 31 for the FLQ kidnappings and bombings.
We're a little pissed at France, still. And they look headed for some
kind of facism too, their people are highly restricted in encryption
technology and counter-surveillance.
And besides, they only have two attacks in time of war - decapitation or
capitulation. Bunch of bozos.
SuperNova
Bev Thornton wrote:
>
> SuperNova, in <3BE22DBC...@ehstag.com>, wrote:
> >
> > A mobile technical intelligence special forces team... they played a big
> > part in a number of actions, I heard of them from their work in Columbia
> > where they helped pinpoint the location of him via his cell phone usage
> > using planes and scanners.
>
> That's no big deal. Three hams can do that. no planes required.
" Because of freq. hopping
it is very difficult to triangulate a cellular phone using standard
directional finding methods (trace you, d00d). Further, it is known that a
directional antenna randomly aimed at cellsite repeaters will confuse
directional finding equipment being used by them that is synced to their
freq. hopping scheme."
My source was the book "Killing Pablo", though. It went pretty in-depth
into the various methods used. The CIA, the military, the Columbian
police all gave it a good try... but Centra Spike was the best at
it.
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Centra+Spike%22&hl=en&sa=N&tab=gw
Number of articles there...
>
> > The CIA is very incompetent in the arena of human intelligence,
>
> Well, if they needed planes to triangulate osama on a cell or sat phone
> I would say they are incompetent at sigint too.
See above.
>
> > as everybody knows now. They have a very good reputation for technical
> > intelligence.
>
> They do? Show me some. Or some reference that mentions that reputation.
Above.
>
> > They are definitely very stuffy and rigid,
>
> You've apparently never met any of the field operators. There are some
> memoirs and biographies. I like John Paul Vann's by Neil Sheehan. Have a
> look, it's interesting. Won a Pulitzer too. _A Bright Shining Lie_
I have been reading of them for about fifteen years. I find the CIA
stuffy and rigid. Masters of Disguise is a good book I have read
recently, this summer, excellent book on some of the more rough
and tumble ones.
In all of this, I have seen more pure talent from criminal ranks...
>
> > as the FBI has been historically -- who amazingly had Hoover whom
> > denied the existance of the Cosa Nostra. (Though, the FBI has later
> > played a large part in practically dismantling the Cosa Nostra here).
>
> Our friends are all gone? When did that happen?
>
> Who hauls the garbage in Manhattan these days?
They are not all gone, but the main families were severely hit,
this happened along with the Gotti bust... they were hit severely
in New York, Chicago, Atlantic City, California...
>
> > We generally rely on more seasoned, rough and ready action for
> > these sorts of operations from groups like Delta Force.
>
> Why?
Not sure what I was speaking of there... but in my opinion,
the pool is too small, and the experience too conceited. Wherever
you get away from seat warmers you get closer to people who
are actually competent at their job. Undue confidence and lack
of real world experience is a plague for large systems like the CIA.
>
> > I can not say they are doing their job or that they do have everything
> > together. I disagree they are doing all they can, and believe they
> > are very stodgy and slow moving.
>
> They sure aren't slow to making messes of things. Abdul Haq's mission
> for one just recently.
>
> > If you want to penetrate these networks, you have to get people
> > on the ground, get linquist's, infilitrate groups. It is simply not
> > that hard.
>
> That's right. If the financing is there is is a cinch. You should see
> what the Brits do with almost no money at all. In int, they do have a
> good reputation. At least, in some countries they do.
Solely because of the mythology of 007, lol.
I have still been more impressed with criminals than with these
intelligence types... with a few exceptions. Not that intelligence
is criminal, but when you are talking about people who are able
to infilitrate groups... gather intelligence... pull off strong
arming, assassinations, black ops... I have seen more from the
criminal world than anything else that is impressive.
I believe this is because when you are talking about motivation
and pools. After all, there are nearly an endless pool of criminals,
whereas there are not of intelligence officers. True competition
is stunted amongst most intelligence networks.
>
> >> The licensing there is bizarre but the real problem comes when you want
> >> to use certain encyrption technologies across the border. There are
> >> limitations.
> >
> > I ignore them, they can sue me. Encryption is something that has
> > to be dealt with. If there is someone you want to tap, it is far too
> > easy to do so from their system, remotely, silently. There is no
> > excuse.
>
> Sue you? Better read this:
>
> http://www.epic.org/crypto/export_controls.html
>
404
http://www2.epic.org/reports/crypto2000/countries.html#Heading133
"Finally, in January 2000, the Administration announced a new export policy
that relaxed
many controls.
There are no domestic use or import controls on cryptography in the United
States."
"In January 2000, the government announced changes to
the Export Administration Regulations concerning the export of cryptographic
products. This followed by almost one year previous revised licensing
requirements for
cryptographic exports. The earlier announcement permitted cryptographic exports
to certain business sectors in certain countries and eliminated the requirement
for
key recovery mechanisms to be included in exports. The 2000 changes largely
eliminated the sector and country limitations."
"Encryption exports continue to be banned to Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North
Korea,
Sudan and Syria (the “T-7” or “Terrorist 7” countries)."
But, that doesn't mean anything now, how can a "Terrorist 7" Nation be in our
"anti-terrorism coalition"?
That is still some bullshit left. It should be challenged in the courts. We just
have to deal with it, especially after the outrageously stupid bungles in
the 80's and 90's.
> The US Deptartment of State is serious about that. Very serious. Don't
> get caught.
>
> > Gandhi's concept of passive resistance, the name he gave to
> > it. Satygara, I believe is the equivalent word for it.
>
> Satygara? That would be 'great gentle awareness,' I think. Are you
> sure that's how to spell it? Could it be sat-ya-ghara? Great gentle pot?
> Hindu oes not have the same kind of soul as in the west, they have the
> atman concept. So 'ghara' is sometimes used for something that means a
> bunch of people who are together spiritually, as a group in that way.
> Ghandi and his followers often used the practice, satyaghara, which is
> like a big, whole bunch of people, 'great' or 'sat', and togther in
> spirit, 'ghara' and gentle, 'ya' from ahimsa.
>
> Where does the term 'soulforce' come from? Is there some author who
> equates that term to satyaghara? that seems kind of misleading to me if
> that is what it is, satyaghara is not 'force,' and it is kind of plural.
> Is it one of those New Age things?
No, got it from gandhi.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=soulforce+Gandhi
>
> > We do, too... I don't know what you have...
>
> They're selling video cell phones some places now. On CNN I saw a piece
> where there was this new prototype technology being tested in Japan,
> video cell phones, and then when the local ads came on right after, they
> were selling them here. I got a laugh out of that. The other ad from
> last year too, about the kid using the phone to find out when the bus
> comes, like this is some pioneering technology in place, well, in Canada
> in some cities it is old. you just press in the number of the bus and
> your stop and the phone tells you when the next bus is, used to be just
> voice but some places have text too. so that was funny. Canada is very
> advanced in radiocommunications and telephony. and now we're going to
> give it all away to all the coalition countries.
>
> Someone owes us and Mexico a couple satellites too. We haven't pinned
> that on anybody yet but it was kind of obvious. Some country better be
> nice to us because we never made a stink about that. We'll get ours out
> of it though. We always do.
>
LOL, we should start charging more for our media.
> > buy one cheaply. You can even get GPS monitors for cars now at
> > your local store.
>
> Can you order some cars with them built-in? We have them here. I'm
> pretty sure some of them are American brands too. I like that satelitte
> thing but it is expensive, onstar is it? something like that. you must
> have that there.
Onstar is made in America.
>
> Are you guys allowed to own all this kind of counter surveillance stuff
> without a license, some countries people aren't:
> http://www.spycityonline.com/
They have these shops all over the US.
>
> I'm sure they'll ship no matter what though. Some companies here
> even ship marijuana seeds to the states, mailorder. We love yankee
> dollars.
You can buy seeds at the local headshops, though maybe that was
through magazines. Regardless, I have known people who have bought
high quality seeds.
>
> >> In another thread a cop says that in the states they can't even bug a
> >> prisoner's cell. To me that sounds ridiculous.
> >
> > No we can't, and I do not recall what all else Canada had they
> > we did not... I recall in some books it was jaw dropping for me,
> > some serial killer case or something.
>
> Oh, yeah, those guys have no privacy whatsoever, not a whit. Like, they
> have to be kept in the prisons and we have to make sure all the
> prisoners are safe. So the psychos get treated that way. Arsonists and
> serial sex offenders too. And the odd other weirdos.
I do not like that system. Prisoners should be put into isolation
if they are going to be abused by others or be able to teach others
worse crimes. Put them into isolated chambers with no windows, where
they can be left to their thoughts, I think.
>> Very different here. There are reasons we have less violent crime.
>
> > I was just joking... I don't really know what to think about it, I
> > do not like totalitarianism... it doesn't allow freedom of speech, press,
> > or religion.
>
> Tito was ok. Castro is too. And believe it or not, Muammar Qadhafi is
> not at all what Americans think. Not even close. The only one you guys
> got right is Hussein.
Isn't Hussein anti-fundamentalist? I am opposed to that sort of
loss of freedom, regardless.
He will not be captured, is what I have read.
>
> To bad we couldn't have got Hitler that way. And executing a lot of the
> Nazis was a mistake because we lost the opportunity for the subversion
> of the leadership so that they could be presented to the neo-nazis as
> failures in themselves rather than just the ones who got beat way back
> when.
I disagree, the Nazi sentiment remained and was helped by Nazi's who
survived. I would have prefered to see even more Nazi's slaughtered
so the world would take that as a sign of fear to never walk that
road again.
>
> > He is not the first Islamic terrorist, and he will not be the last.
>
> There will always be some no matter what. sociopaths like Manson trying
> to start a race war. They aren't all religious. Trendies and hoods like
> the Baader-Meinhoff gang. Some are purely political. And then there is
> the absurd, such as the Symbionese Liberation Army.
The SLA, the Manson Family came about in and around the 60's like
the Watchmen... though, the Manson Family is way overblown. Manson
himself did not even give direct orders, but Tex Watson wanted to
prove something. Manson did teach these crazy things and reach
them into a frenzy.
Crimes always start with motives... the SLA and the Manson Family
alike were born in environments where the talk was very extreme,
and there was a lot of it.
>
> I do not believe Patty Hearst had Stockholm Syndrome. Did she ever do
> any time?
I believe she did, and no, she was commuted by the President.
>
> > United States is up there, though Russia was four times as
> > much.
>
> There are differences in reporting. for instance, in Canada, not so many
> people accidentally shoot themselves while cleaning a rifle anymore if
> you know what I mean.
>
> > Violent crime in the United States is on a decline.
>
> Good. Do people sense it that way? Are the neighbourhoods actually
> safer? A decline in crime can mean increasing criminal sophistication
> because the figures rely on reporting and detection.
There are a lot of dissapearances now. The criminals have used the
internet to discover that "where there is no body, there is no
crime". They are taking to dismembering the corpse so it will not
float and throwing them into the water. Whereas, previously, they
would shoot them and leave their fingerprints all around.
Joking.
No, crime has gone down. The drug war really did hurt the supply
chains. It was not a "victory" but it did some serious damage. In
the 80's we were well on our way to have a crack cocaine culture
everywhere... now it is relatively rare.
>
> > So, I do not really know what the big deal is. Looks like
> > Canada has some pretty serious problems of their own.
>
> Then why do we feel safe and have all along?
>
> I think our police are more effective and our reporting is better. i've
> been all over the US east coast and have seen the difference in the
> communities. Rural, suburban and urban.
I do not have any evidence that the police are better. I feel totally
safe with our police. We have profound reputations across the world
for our advances in forensic sciences.
>
> Want to see something else that will puzzle you? Look at the levels of
> incarceration.
>
> > I have lived in Hispanic gang territory in Dallas before. I knew
> > a guy who was into the gang. There were gunshots almost every night.
>
> There is no place in Canada like that. And you think we have serious
> problems?
>
> > Every other place I have lived is not like that. I don't have
> > anything to fear from the "bloods" or the "crypts". They generally
> > kill each other... when that was really going on, more back
> > in the 80's than now. Generally, you never see them.
>
> I almost got run over by an all-white gang in Eugene, Oregon in 1998.
> They were after my camera gear, I think. They tried to run me over
> several times. I was at the top of that big hill there, on foot, and
> soon as I left the peak they started chasing me with pickup trucks and
> jeeps. And that was supposed to be some hippie town. My ass.
Oregon is full of freaks.
>
> I've never been to Texas though, don't now what it is like there.
>
> > As you can see above, your large cities have problems with
> > crime just as ours do. In some of our cities we do have ruthless
> > criminals who do a lot of killing. We have a shoot em up,
> > Wild West history. So does a lot of South and Central America
> > where the "bandito" legends live. Honestly, I respect that
> > culture.
>
> Well, you guys can keep it. We like our stats just the way they are.
>
> Did you know in some cities we give the streetwalkers free 911 phones?
> We work hard to keep our crime statistics high because it really is all
> about detection and reporting rather than what all is actually
> happening.
>
> > I don't know any. I have known some when I was into punk
> > scenes and such, skinheads. They were on the fringes, and
> > I have been in two altercations with them. Nothing that
> > was more than a brief but heated argument.
>
> We have hate crime laws in Canada to take care of them. So far, it is
> going pretty good but there is trouble with this RAHOWA movement because
> they moved their material to web servers in the US and that is allowing
> them to continue networking and recruiting. They're terrorists, they
> want to provoke a race war. These jerks - http://www.rahowa.com/
> There are Canadian racists and neo-nazis behind a lot of that movement.
LOL. Yeah, well, I don't like our racism laws, but these guys are
terrorists. They say they are as much. They express as much intentions.
And, where are the cops? Why are they walking around, bragging about
these sorts of things on the internet?
We are really, really not tough on these guys. But, it is in the
name of "free speech"... free speech, lack of prison space, and
genuine incompetence.
>
> > There are a lot of racist's, though, white racists. Every
> > place I have worked has been integrated. Wherever they are,
> > they are hiding well enough. I know they are out there,
> > as you can find from interviews and statistics and such.
>
> The schools should address that, the elementary, middle and high
> schools. That is where to combat racism, at least that is where the
> primary focus of anti-racist activity in Canada focuses.
>
> > I don't know any. They are as likely to beaten up for
> > expressing these view at work or in public as not. By whites
> > or by blacks... everybody is against them.
>
> But not the law? Why can RAHOWA operate their Internet propaganda
> machine in the US? Here, what they do is a crime.
I don't mind them going out in the open so they can be infilitrated...
but then I get the idea that they are not being infilitrated. And,
this really infuriates me.
>
> >> The only way to get rid of racism is education. It is an effect of
> >> ignorance.
> >
> > We have anti-racist shows on television all the time. We have
> > plenty of movies on the subject. Cable covers the subjects all
> > the time, I watched three shows this Saturday on them.
>
> Television, film and theatre doesn't work, it is the nature of the
> medium. Only person-to-person educational encounter effectively deals
> with issues such as racism. Cultural works such as painting, sculpture,
> actual physical objects, still images, they can help too but the nature
> of the motion picture image and of play story prevents certain sorts of
> learning experiences from occurring. It's biological.
I disagree, Mississippi Burning was earth shattering for me. Schindler's
List... I can think of many such films that have impacted me positively
for years afterwards.
Why not drop the language, then?
Bev Thornton
>
> " Because of freq. hopping
> it is very difficult to triangulate a cellular phone using standard
> directional finding methods (trace you, d00d). Further, it is known that a
> directional antenna randomly aimed at cellsite repeaters will confuse
> directional finding equipment being used by them that is synced to their
> freq. hopping scheme."
Yes, very difficult but not impossible. Only two are required for the
triangulation. the third one is the fix for hopping. 'Standard method'
is the two-site reception.
> My source was the book "Killing Pablo", though. It went pretty in-depth
> into the various methods used. The CIA, the military, the Columbian
> police all gave it a good try... but Centra Spike was the best at
> it.
I'll look for a copy.
Hey, I worked the big Escobar narco-terrorist trials here in Canada, did
spotting for the RCMP. I sure hope they're better at perimeter security
then than they were then; wouldn't want embarrassing anonymous letters
to editors to start up again. Doesn't look good.
> I have been reading of them for about fifteen years. I find the CIA
> stuffy and rigid. Masters of Disguise is a good book I have read
> recently, this summer, excellent book on some of the more rough
> and tumble ones.
I'll look for that one too.
> In all of this, I have seen more pure talent from criminal ranks...
They have excellent tutors in some parts of the world. Peshawar used to
be quite the training ground in the eighties. A lot of people of all
kinds went through there.
> They are not all gone, but the main families were severely hit,
> this happened along with the Gotti bust... they were hit severely
> in New York, Chicago, Atlantic City, California...
Trials are one thing, but does it show in their operations? Extortion,
prostitution, numbers, hijacking, robbery, smuggling. They are not above
giving the appearance that they are beaten. The more violent and visible
families, they are not all there is. The best of the cosa nostra have
never been known. For instance, the opium for world black market heroin
has taken a big hit the past couple years and now the drug market is
flooded with prescription delaudid. Takes a mob to do that, one that
owns pharmacies and physicians and clinics and everything. Or does one
hell of a lot of hijacking. the hijacking isn't happening all that much.
Those were the bozos like the teflon don and his boys. The class deal is
much more hidden than those thugs in playboy suits, and has better
defenses than bedshirt bug acts.
>> > We generally rely on more seasoned, rough and ready action for
>> > these sorts of operations from groups like Delta Force.
>>
>> Why?
>
> Not sure what I was speaking of there... but in my opinion,
> the pool is too small, and the experience too conceited. Wherever
> you get away from seat warmers you get closer to people who
> are actually competent at their job. Undue confidence and lack
> of real world experience is a plague for large systems like the CIA.
I'd agree with that. As for Delta, I don't know anyone who would rely on
them. Their record in action is not impressive. The ghetto in Panama,
for instance; the dust storm in Iran. Bosnia. SEAL Team Six was there
too. So were guys from most of the free world. they still are.
>> That's right. If the financing is there is is a cinch. You should see
>> what the Brits do with almost no money at all. In int, they do have a
>> good reputation. At least, in some countries they do.
>
> Solely because of the mythology of 007, lol.
No, not at all. Because of history, like Enigma and the SOE campaign,
because of various spy trails over time. Mainly, though, because they
don't often get caught. And who is worried about their secrets sold to
Iraq or Israelis? Not them.
> I have still been more impressed with criminals than with these
> intelligence types... with a few exceptions. Not that intelligence
> is criminal, but when you are talking about people who are able
> to infilitrate groups... gather intelligence... pull off strong
> arming, assassinations, black ops... I have seen more from the
> criminal world than anything else that is impressive.
That is because the criminals are bunglers are rely on force so they
become quite visible. Force and assassinations and the like are only
a limited means of coercion and subversion. Playing with the enemy's
minds, with paper and words, no one knows it happens and all that is
visible is the end result. Which always gets blamed on something else,
good policing, bad luck for the adversary. It's all very shady and the
idea is to never show your hand, not even after it is all over. It's a
different kind of card game.
> I believe this is because when you are talking about motivation
> and pools. After all, there are nearly an endless pool of criminals,
> whereas there are not of intelligence officers. True competition
> is stunted amongst most intelligence networks.
Among most, yes. Not all. Some, British and Canadian for instance, have
competition in ranks built-in to the system and even spanning
specialties and disciplines. Initiative is rewarded. Doesn't take budget
- takes brains. Doesn't even really take secrecy all that much - takes
subtlety more than anything.
> There are no domestic use or import controls on cryptography in the United
> States."
Yeah, well, don't be sticking the stuff on open servers in the states.
Ask the OpenBSD and Debian crews about that.
> key recovery mechanisms to be included in exports. The 2000 changes largely
> eliminated the sector and country limitations."
Yes. 'Largely' being a keyword.
> But, that doesn't mean anything now, how can a "Terrorist 7" Nation be in our
> "anti-terrorism coalition"?
Because you've been being lied to all along. Libya, for instance is not
what you think. Do you know what the Libyans are doing right
now? About the big, new propaganda campaign they've launched throughout
Africa?
Here are some relics of it:
http://www.middleeastwire.com/libya/stories/20010805_meno.html
That was before the atrocity. Sudan is al Qaeda's #2 protector, probably
actually #1 but that is another matter.
Here is another:
http://mandla.ca.za/al-qalam/1998/AprilMay98/Libya.htm
That was two years ago. They are still at it. Kind of hard to get news
on it in the West though, some do not want others to know.
News from the Jamahiriya:
http://www.wipl.com/wipl_kano.htm
Note how military forces are considered differently than are peoples and
faiths in those documents.
I would give you a link to the official Libyan government web site but
it has been effectively blocked for awhile now. How convenient.
And here is an article on the Libyan's original beef:
http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/Shalomlyb1.hmtl
There is a reason why Canada has been burning Libyan oil for the past 19
years, and why that oil comes on Liberian-registered tankers. And even
more significant, the owners of those tankers - they do not participate
in Trilateral Commission or Brandenburger meetings. Canada is playing
its own game. We are sick of a world of war. We have sent our young men
and women to every single UN intervention there ever was and our combat
troops to most all of them too. We do know the world and we do our own
kind of manipulations on it. We were even in Hanoi when it was being
bombed.
> That is still some bullshit left. It should be challenged in the courts.
> We jus have to deal with it, especially after the outrageously stupid
> bungles in the 80's and 90's.
The bungling is still going on.
Blocking a whole nation's web site is a bit much. Especially when that
nation is trying to mount a major peace initiative and has been for a
number of years now.
> No, got it from gandhi.
>
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=soulforce+Gandhi
Well, in case you didn't notice those are all US web sites. So I tracked
the word myself. It comes from not Gandhi but a Rev. Mel White and Gary
Nixon. http://www.soulforce.org/
Gandhi knew how to translate satyaghara.
>> Someone owes us and Mexico a couple satellites too. We haven't pinned
>> that on anybody yet but it was kind of obvious. Some country better be
>> nice to us because we never made a stink about that. We'll get ours out
>> of it though. We always do.
>
> LOL, we should start charging more for our media.
We are going to put those satelittes back up and if anyone takes them
down again it is not going to be pretty at all. There will be
'disturbances in diverse places.'
LOL.
> Onstar is made in America.
Made there, yes. Does SAAB ring a bell?
>> Are you guys allowed to own all this kind of counter surveillance stuff
>> without a license, some countries people aren't:
>> http://www.spycityonline.com/
>
> They have these shops all over the US.
Yes, I can see that but on their web sites I do not see the same degree
of sophistication in counter-surveillance equipment. I wonder why that
is.
> I do not like that system. Prisoners should be put into isolation
> if they are going to be abused by others or be able to teach others
> worse crimes. Put them into isolated chambers with no windows, where
> they can be left to their thoughts, I think.
In Canada, that is considered cruel and unusual punishment. We do fine
with our institutional monitoring technology. Our prisons are fairly
safe too, gang-rape and that sort of thing is not near the deal it is in
some other countires. It is safe to bend-over in the shower in a
Canadian prison. The prison fags tend to keep to themselves.
>> Tito was ok. Castro is too. And believe it or not, Muammar Qadhafi is
>> not at all what Americans think. Not even close. The only one you guys
>> got right is Hussein.
>
> Isn't Hussein anti-fundamentalist? I am opposed to that sort of
> loss of freedom, regardless.
Yes, Hussein is stauchly anti-fundamentalist and that is his beef with
Saudi and that is why bin Laden and his cronies hate the Iraqi
government as much as they do that of Israel. Hussein is scum though;
the likes if Idi Amin. Did you know that the current sanctions are
actually helping him stay in power and preventing the creation of
popular movements of resistance and reform within Iraq?
> He will not be captured, is what I have read.
Then that is a grave and short-sighted error. Or an insidious design.
One or the other.
> I disagree, the Nazi sentiment remained and was helped by Nazi's who
> survived.
Do you know of an example of that?
> I would have prefered to see even more Nazi's slaughtered
> so the world would take that as a sign of fear to never walk that
> road again.
It simply doesn't work that way at all. Fear makes people scheme and
hide, nothing more. It gives them martyrs for their causes, it makes
subversion of their movement more difficult. And it makes them
eventually strike out.
> The SLA, the Manson Family came about in and around the 60's like
> the Watchmen... though, the Manson Family is way overblown. Manson
> himself did not even give direct orders, but Tex Watson wanted to
> prove something. Manson did teach these crazy things and reach
> them into a frenzy.
He wanted to create a race war. That was what all the acts of terror
they committed were about. Why the wallet was left in a bathroom. Why
the words scrawled in blood were chosen as they were. Ed Sanders did a
very good investigation from the inside, published in the book _The
Family_. The Family was larger than you might think. There was a >200
person commune of them in Nova Scotia in the 12970's. they are still
around. Remember Squeaky?
> Crimes always start with motives... the SLA and the Manson Family
> alike were born in environments where the talk was very extreme,
> and there was a lot of it.
There's a lot more of it now. The release of Internet technology into
the public sector has changed a lot of things.
>> I do not believe Patty Hearst had Stockholm Syndrome. Did she ever do
>> any time?
>
> I believe she did, and no, she was commuted by the President.
Well, she was just another terrorist as far as I'm concerned. I do not
for one moment believe the stories of her kidnapping or that she suffers
Stockholm Syndrome. I think she is just one of those women attracted to
men who wield force. And that she held that machinegun willingly. And
was culpable in her own 'kidnapping.' Life is different for the rich.
> No, crime has gone down. The drug war really did hurt the supply
> chains. It was not a "victory" but it did some serious damage. In
> the 80's we were well on our way to have a crack cocaine culture
> everywhere... now it is relatively rare.
See any sneakers on wires lately?
Crack cocaine wasn't invented until the mid-eighties, by the way.
And here is how it got to America:
http://www.usdoj.gov/oig/c4rpt/exsump2.htm
And here is what happened after:
http://www.tfy.drugsense.org/bushwar.htm
And here are last year's numbers:
http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs/647/
How rare is all that?
This year's numbers should be out soon.
> I do not have any evidence that the police are better. I feel totally
> safe with our police. We have profound reputations across the world
> for our advances in forensic sciences.
Yes, that is true. But, at the same time there is also a profound
reputation across the world for the US murder rate, the incarceration
rate, the state of inner cities, all sorts of things. and it isn't
getting better.
> Oregon is full of freaks.
Been to Manhattan? or Los Angeles? or Miami? They're worse for freaks.
And psychos.
> LOL. Yeah, well, I don't like our racism laws, but these guys are
> terrorists. They say they are as much. They express as much intentions.
> And, where are the cops? Why are they walking around, bragging about
> these sorts of things on the internet?
I don't know. you will have to ask the FBI about that. We ran them out
of Canada five years ago. Here is their web address again, in case you
want to pass it to authorities: http://www.rahowa.com/
Most of their Canadian leaders have also immigrated to the US now.
> We are really, really not tough on these guys. But, it is in the
> name of "free speech"... free speech, lack of prison space, and
> genuine incompetence.
Free speech is very different in nations where license is understood.
> I don't mind them going out in the open so they can be infilitrated...
> but then I get the idea that they are not being infilitrated. And,
> this really infuriates me.
Complain. You have representatives in the government, there are
newspapers always ready for letters, television news shows too. There
are all kinds of ways to make things happen and one person really can do
a lot if they put their mind to it. Best to not work from a point of
fury though, best to be cold and calculating.
> I disagree, Mississippi Burning was earth shattering for me. Schindler's
> List... I can think of many such films that have impacted me positively
> for years afterwards.
That happens too, it just isn't as effective as educational campaigns
and relics of popular culture that are actually installed in the
community as fixtures.
>> We're a little pissed at France, still. And they look headed for some
>> kind of facism too, their people are highly restricted in encryption
>> technology and counter-surveillance.
>
> Why not drop the language, then?
The language? Why do that? Our beef is with the nation of France. We can
tell the difference between the state and the people and the language.
We're mad at France - not French language - the 'French,' as it is
popularly understood throughout the world.
Discernment is a wonderful thing.
SuperNova
Bev Thornton wrote:
>
> SuperNova, in <3BE2AC19...@ehstag.com>, wrote:
> >
> > " Because of freq. hopping
> > it is very difficult to triangulate a cellular phone using standard
> > directional finding methods (trace you, d00d). Further, it is known that a
> > directional antenna randomly aimed at cellsite repeaters will confuse
> > directional finding equipment being used by them that is synced to their
> > freq. hopping scheme."
>
> Yes, very difficult but not impossible. Only two are required for the
> triangulation. the third one is the fix for hopping. 'Standard method'
> is the two-site reception.
And, how close? To the kilometer?
>
> > My source was the book "Killing Pablo", though. It went pretty in-depth
> > into the various methods used. The CIA, the military, the Columbian
> > police all gave it a good try... but Centra Spike was the best at
> > it.
>
> I'll look for a copy.
>
> Hey, I worked the big Escobar narco-terrorist trials here in Canada, did
> spotting for the RCMP. I sure hope they're better at perimeter security
> then than they were then; wouldn't want embarrassing anonymous letters
> to editors to start up again. Doesn't look good.
Where, in Columbia? The letters from Pablo? Was the terrorism carried
to Canada? Sorry, unaware of that.
>
> > I have been reading of them for about fifteen years. I find the CIA
> > stuffy and rigid. Masters of Disguise is a good book I have read
> > recently, this summer, excellent book on some of the more rough
> > and tumble ones.
>
> I'll look for that one too.
Very nice read, about a team who was in charge of disguises for
the CIA... a lot about getting people out of countries, meeting
with turncoats, infilitration, etc.
>
> > In all of this, I have seen more pure talent from criminal ranks...
>
> They have excellent tutors in some parts of the world. Peshawar used to
> be quite the training ground in the eighties. A lot of people of all
> kinds went through there.
>
> > They are not all gone, but the main families were severely hit,
> > this happened along with the Gotti bust... they were hit severely
> > in New York, Chicago, Atlantic City, California...
>
> Trials are one thing, but does it show in their operations? Extortion,
> prostitution, numbers, hijacking, robbery, smuggling. They are not above
> giving the appearance that they are beaten. The more violent and visible
> families, they are not all there is.
I disagree... crime took a serious nosedive in the nineties till
now.
We literally beheaded their organizations. A lot of this was
helped with new laws which were finally figured out by the law enforcement
teams. As for the bottomfeeders, the grunts, the soldiers, they were
pretty well locked up as well. What is worse is that we were able
to expose their secret workings, their organizational structures,
their tactics...
> The best of the cosa nostra have
> never been known. For instance, the opium for world black market heroin
> has taken a big hit the past couple years and now the drug market is
> flooded with prescription delaudid. Takes a mob to do that, one that
> owns pharmacies and physicians and clinics and everything. Or does one
> hell of a lot of hijacking. the hijacking isn't happening all that much.
> Those were the bozos like the teflon don and his boys. The class deal is
> much more hidden than those thugs in playboy suits, and has better
> defenses than bedshirt bug acts.
Mob... you are right about these things. And, the mob does still
exist. However, we have seen since the collapse of the Soviet Empire...
we have seen organized crime take on a new form... a sort of pseudo-government
form... the Russian Mafiya has had a huge presence in the United States,
they are tougher than the Italian mob, they are crazier, they are
smarter, but worse, as I believe it was Gorbachev who said, "they
have their own country".
I think more and more people are seeing in these sorts of countries
that conspiracies do pay and they can rival their own governments. We have
seen this with Columbia, where Escobar even had some laws changed,
where the terrorists have their own land the government can not tresspass
on... and all across the world...
What all of these groups have working for them is stealth, is
infilitration. They are among the people. They do not have more
money, nor more people, nor more weapons. But, they are good
at what they do because they do it for themselves and it is
an easy way out of poverty or whatever else ails them.
>
> >> > We generally rely on more seasoned, rough and ready action for
> >> > these sorts of operations from groups like Delta Force.
> >>
> >> Why?
> >
> > Not sure what I was speaking of there... but in my opinion,
> > the pool is too small, and the experience too conceited. Wherever
> > you get away from seat warmers you get closer to people who
> > are actually competent at their job. Undue confidence and lack
> > of real world experience is a plague for large systems like the CIA.
>
> I'd agree with that. As for Delta, I don't know anyone who would rely on
> them. Their record in action is not impressive. The ghetto in Panama,
> for instance; the dust storm in Iran. Bosnia. SEAL Team Six was there
> too. So were guys from most of the free world. they still are.
I apologize, I was not intending to speak of Delta as the only
example or anything like that. As for special forces, I would say
the SAS and the SEALS. As for Delta, I have just been trying to
plow through a book on them by their founder but have gotten off
course too much.
>
> >> That's right. If the financing is there is is a cinch. You should see
> >> what the Brits do with almost no money at all. In int, they do have a
> >> good reputation. At least, in some countries they do.
> >
> > Solely because of the mythology of 007, lol.
>
> No, not at all. Because of history, like Enigma and the SOE campaign,
> because of various spy trails over time. Mainly, though, because they
> don't often get caught. And who is worried about their secrets sold to
> Iraq or Israelis? Not them.
Perhaps, I want to pick up the book on MI7 sometime, I have just
read a few. I have been impressed with the Israeli intelligence forces,
though their blunders have been impressive as well... I think that
is not giving them enough credit considering just what sort of odds
they are facing and have faced. They get in there, they hire even
from skeptical or previous militia groups, they hire from ethnic
regions... of course, the Mossad, like the CIA have this horrible
reputation with conspiracy theorists... whether that is good or
not I do not know.
I would not really say the spy trials were speaking well of Britain,
though... however, I do regard their SAS well.
>
> > I have still been more impressed with criminals than with these
> > intelligence types... with a few exceptions. Not that intelligence
> > is criminal, but when you are talking about people who are able
> > to infilitrate groups... gather intelligence... pull off strong
> > arming, assassinations, black ops... I have seen more from the
> > criminal world than anything else that is impressive.
>
> That is because the criminals are bunglers are rely on force so they
> become quite visible. Force and assassinations and the like are only
> a limited means of coercion and subversion.
It can be a limited means... that is for sure, though I do remain
aware that we have quite a number of once secrets out in the open
not from bungling, but from memoirs of people in these intelligence
agencies and investigative reporting and such... as for criminals
being bunglers, yes, they usually are... they get caught one time or
another it would seem.
Of course, when you shoot at a cop, you are shooting at the entire
police force... when you shoot at a hood, he likely can't call anyone.
> Playing with the enemy's
> minds, with paper and words, no one knows it happens and all that is
> visible is the end result. Which always gets blamed on something else,
> good policing, bad luck for the adversary. It's all very shady and the
> idea is to never show your hand, not even after it is all over. It's a
> different kind of card game.
Sure, though, I am not impressed with our propaganda war. Is there a propaganda
war? We are missing something when we have all of these people who
hate us. I do not think any of these intelligence agencies except
perhaps Israeli even have a strong infiltration force that works
in these terrorist groups or works close to them... infilitrating
them, watching their messages, becoming buddy buddy with them. We have
done it here in the United States somewhat in the drug war, with
Neo-Nazi's... but, abroad? Has the CIA really caught on?
What agencies have men in the Middle East? Men who look Middle
Eastern, who speak the language, and who walk about as one of
them... travelling in these groups, talking to the radicals, going
to meetings?
It is all forces. It is either working with forces as in
jiu jitsu, or it is, as you say, "brute force". Yet, these crime
groups do work with these forces when they pay off officials and
run their families and do not get caught. Remember Hoover's
saying, "There is no mafia"... and that is here in the United
States, the richest country! In poorer countries organized crime,
whatever its' form has a much, much stronger ability for
control.
And, they don't get caught. They don't go to jail. The flamboyant
ones do, some get caught, and they tell... but it is so often
not enough to do anything.
>
> > I believe this is because when you are talking about motivation
> > and pools. After all, there are nearly an endless pool of criminals,
> > whereas there are not of intelligence officers. True competition
> > is stunted amongst most intelligence networks.
>
> Among most, yes. Not all. Some, British and Canadian for instance, have
> competition in ranks built-in to the system and even spanning
> specialties and disciplines. Initiative is rewarded. Doesn't take budget
> - takes brains. Doesn't even really take secrecy all that much - takes
> subtlety more than anything.
I still think it requires more brains than a man is willing to
use... but I do not know enough of the British and Canadian special
intelligence groups to do anything other than surmise. Too often
these organizations are set up so desk warmers get advancement,
whereas people who do things get stuck down. The problem with this
is the desk warmers begin to make all of the policy, and it is
never close to the streets.
>
> > There are no domestic use or import controls on cryptography in the United
> > States."
>
> Yeah, well, don't be sticking the stuff on open servers in the states.
> Ask the OpenBSD and Debian crews about that.
>
> > key recovery mechanisms to be included in exports. The 2000 changes largely
> > eliminated the sector and country limitations."
>
> Yes. 'Largely' being a keyword.
>
> > But, that doesn't mean anything now, how can a "Terrorist 7" Nation be in our
> > "anti-terrorism coalition"?
>
> Because you've been being lied to all along. Libya, for instance is not
> what you think. Do you know what the Libyans are doing right
> now? About the big, new propaganda campaign they've launched throughout
> Africa?
No, though I do not have many thoughts about Libya at all... we have
not really considered them such an enemy for about a decade.
>
> Here are some relics of it:
> http://www.middleeastwire.com/libya/stories/20010805_meno.html
404
> That was before the atrocity. Sudan is al Qaeda's #2 protector, probably
> actually #1 but that is another matter.
I am aware of Sudan, been slamming the point home for sometime on
these groups. I am aware of OBL's connection with Sudan to some
degree.
> Here is another:
> http://mandla.ca.za/al-qalam/1998/AprilMay98/Libya.htm
Dead host... what are the points I will look it up?
> That was two years ago. They are still at it. Kind of hard to get news
> on it in the West though, some do not want others to know.
> News from the Jamahiriya:
> http://www.wipl.com/wipl_kano.htm
404
> Note how military forces are considered differently than are peoples and
> faiths in those documents.
cia factbook
"Since he took power in a 1969 military coup, Col. Muammar Abu Minyar al-QADHAFI
has espoused his own political system - a combination of socialism and Islam -
which he calls the Third International Theory. Viewing himself as a
revolutionary leader, he used oil funds during the 1970s and 1980s to promote
his ideology outside Libya, even supporting subversives and terrorists abroad to
hasten the end of Marxism and capitalism. Libyan military adventures failed,
e.g., the prolonged foray of Libyan troops into the Aozou Strip in northern Chad
was finally repulsed in 1987. Libyan support for terrorism decreased after UN
sanctions were imposed in 1992. Those sanctions were suspended in April 1999"
>
> I would give you a link to the official Libyan government web site but
> it has been effectively blocked for awhile now. How convenient.
Uhm, hrrm... I do not think we would block it, besides if it is
up at all, I could reach it through any one of numerous proxies.
>
> And here is an article on the Libyan's original beef:
> http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/Shalomlyb1.hmtl
404 - again, what are the issues? This is why I do not keep
bookmarks, they all die in a few months.
>
> There is a reason why Canada has been burning Libyan oil for the past 19
> years, and why that oil comes on Liberian-registered tankers. And even
> more significant, the owners of those tankers - they do not participate
> in Trilateral Commission or Brandenburger meetings. Canada is playing
> its own game. We are sick of a world of war. We have sent our young men
> and women to every single UN intervention there ever was and our combat
> troops to most all of them too. We do know the world and we do our own
> kind of manipulations on it. We were even in Hanoi when it was being
> bombed.
Yeah, I worked with a Canadian "diplomat" before, the noxious fellow. lol.
>
> > That is still some bullshit left. It should be challenged in the courts.
> > We jus have to deal with it, especially after the outrageously stupid
> > bungles in the 80's and 90's.
>
> The bungling is still going on.
>
> Blocking a whole nation's web site is a bit much. Especially when that
> nation is trying to mount a major peace initiative and has been for a
> number of years now.
Hrrm, how, exactly is the US blocking it? All of these sites you
gave me are 404 -- I only take that as any other bookmark you have
from old and didn't check. Had you told me the topics I could have
found the issues in a few minutes.
>
> > No, got it from gandhi.
> >
> > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=soulforce+Gandhi
>
> Well, in case you didn't notice those are all US web sites. So I tracked
> the word myself. It comes from not Gandhi but a Rev. Mel White and Gary
> Nixon. http://www.soulforce.org/
>
> Gandhi knew how to translate satyaghara.
This was fifteen years ago I recall this... one site doesn't mean anything,
even if they have registered the name. That is absurd... Mel White
appears to be some Gay and Lesbian founder... he didn't create that
word, it is just the first group of links that come up because they
named their group after it. They admit it came from "Gandhi and
MLK".
It was from Gandhi, from the Autobiography of Gandhi, another site
reminds me now. That was where I got it from.
As you can see, "soulforce" can mean nonviolent protest, or
it can mean "Gay and Lesbian rights" or it can mean whatever
someone puts on it. I am not referring to that definition of
it, but Gandhi's definition in his autobiography. I recall it
distinctly because I made a jacket then with the word right
across it after reading his autobiography.
>
> >> Someone owes us and Mexico a couple satellites too. We haven't pinned
> >> that on anybody yet but it was kind of obvious. Some country better be
> >> nice to us because we never made a stink about that. We'll get ours out
> >> of it though. We always do.
> >
> > LOL, we should start charging more for our media.
>
> We are going to put those satelittes back up and if anyone takes them
> down again it is not going to be pretty at all. There will be
> 'disturbances in diverse places.'
>
> LOL.
>
> > Onstar is made in America.
>
> Made there, yes. Does SAAB ring a bell?
>
> >> Are you guys allowed to own all this kind of counter surveillance stuff
> >> without a license, some countries people aren't:
> >> http://www.spycityonline.com/
> >
> > They have these shops all over the US.
>
> Yes, I can see that but on their web sites I do not see the same degree
> of sophistication in counter-surveillance equipment. I wonder why that
> is.
Whatever, I checked out this page now, and looked at infra red,
visual surveillance, a few others... same stuff we have here, nothing
special at all. They are not even selling laser microphones or
bugs on their pages. My local shop even, a small little place has
a larger online catalogue.
>
> > I do not like that system. Prisoners should be put into isolation
> > if they are going to be abused by others or be able to teach others
> > worse crimes. Put them into isolated chambers with no windows, where
> > they can be left to their thoughts, I think.
>
> In Canada, that is considered cruel and unusual punishment. We do fine
> with our institutional monitoring technology. Our prisons are fairly
> safe too, gang-rape and that sort of thing is not near the deal it is in
> some other countires. It is safe to bend-over in the shower in a
> Canadian prison. The prison fags tend to keep to themselves.
>
> >> Tito was ok. Castro is too. And believe it or not, Muammar Qadhafi is
> >> not at all what Americans think. Not even close. The only one you guys
> >> got right is Hussein.
> >
> > Isn't Hussein anti-fundamentalist? I am opposed to that sort of
> > loss of freedom, regardless.
>
> Yes, Hussein is stauchly anti-fundamentalist and that is his beef with
> Saudi and that is why bin Laden and his cronies hate the Iraqi
> government as much as they do that of Israel. Hussein is scum though;
> the likes if Idi Amin. Did you know that the current sanctions are
> actually helping him stay in power and preventing the creation of
> popular movements of resistance and reform within Iraq?
Somewhat aware of that, the movie "Three Kings" btw, holds
that view and played it out quite well. (As this came from
our 'lousy' media).
>
> > He will not be captured, is what I have read.
>
> Then that is a grave and short-sighted error. Or an insidious design.
> One or the other.
He obviously does not want to face a trial.
>
> > I disagree, the Nazi sentiment remained and was helped by Nazi's who
> > survived.
>
> Do you know of an example of that?
Israel penetrated the ranks and found this to be the case,
with the help of an American... this was not too long ago,
they made a movie about it. Then, there are the cases of
the Nazi's who were being hunted by the Mossad, et al... and
the help they recieved from Germany, from lesser known ones...
That the Nazi sentiment did remain is stronger in my
mind, than that any surviving Nazi's directly aided this
movement. It is an underground movement, but did infilitrate
the government at least at one time. In my mind, this had
to have been helped by Nazi's who survived and kept this
sentiment, it has been ongoing and has not skipped a generation.
>
> > I would have prefered to see even more Nazi's slaughtered
> > so the world would take that as a sign of fear to never walk that
> > road again.
>
> It simply doesn't work that way at all. Fear makes people scheme and
> hide, nothing more. It gives them martyrs for their causes, it makes
> subversion of their movement more difficult. And it makes them
> eventually strike out.
True, to an extent, but I won't be arguing to let serial killers
walk free anytime soon.
>
> > The SLA, the Manson Family came about in and around the 60's like
> > the Watchmen... though, the Manson Family is way overblown. Manson
> > himself did not even give direct orders, but Tex Watson wanted to
> > prove something. Manson did teach these crazy things and reach
> > them into a frenzy.
>
> He wanted to create a race war. That was what all the acts of terror
> they committed were about. Why the wallet was left in a bathroom. Why
> the words scrawled in blood were chosen as they were. Ed Sanders did a
> very good investigation from the inside, published in the book _The
> Family_. The Family was larger than you might think. There was a >200
> person commune of them in Nova Scotia in the 12970's. they are still
> around. Remember Squeaky?
My primary sources for them are from "Hunting Monsters" or some such
titled book from the forensic psychologist in the FBI who profiled
him, and from the lawyer's book. (And, whatever countless shows).
He wanted to start a race war, but what Quantico agreed was the opinion
of both Tex Watson (who became a born again Christian and was released) and
Manson... was that Manson fed them the stories, but he didn't specifically
plan that murder. Tex Watson put the talk into action partly because
he felt jealous of Manson. As crazy as Manson is, and yes, that was
his "intention" with his group, to start a race war... he didn't,
according to his own account, and that of Watson himself, order
that specific crime.
This is what Quantico's profile came to. The lawyer's book, if I recall,
did not come to that conclusion.
>
> > Crimes always start with motives... the SLA and the Manson Family
> > alike were born in environments where the talk was very extreme,
> > and there was a lot of it.
>
> There's a lot more of it now. The release of Internet technology into
> the public sector has changed a lot of things.
>
> >> I do not believe Patty Hearst had Stockholm Syndrome. Did she ever do
> >> any time?
> >
> > I believe she did, and no, she was commuted by the President.
>
> Well, she was just another terrorist as far as I'm concerned. I do not
> for one moment believe the stories of her kidnapping or that she suffers
> Stockholm Syndrome. I think she is just one of those women attracted to
> men who wield force. And that she held that machinegun willingly. And
> was culpable in her own 'kidnapping.' Life is different for the rich.
I have never heard anyone deny that she was kidnapped. Not even
from the SLA... I found her story to be quite true sounding, and
very plausible. But, to say there wasn't even a kidnapping...
>
> > No, crime has gone down. The drug war really did hurt the supply
> > chains. It was not a "victory" but it did some serious damage. In
> > the 80's we were well on our way to have a crack cocaine culture
> > everywhere... now it is relatively rare.
>
> See any sneakers on wires lately?
>
> Crack cocaine wasn't invented until the mid-eighties, by the way.
I said, the 80's...
>
> And here is how it got to America:
> http://www.usdoj.gov/oig/c4rpt/exsump2.htm
"With regard to the suggestion in the Mercury News that Blandon and Ross were
responsible for the spread of crack cocaine across the country, we concluded
that this is pure hyperbole. It is not possible to pinpoint the manner in which
crack cocaine spread throughout the United States, and any efforts to explain
this so simply are dubious. Experts still do not agree on where crack originated
or the cause of its rise. In addition, Ross' own accounts of the quantities of
cocaine he sold and when he sold it in different cities reveal that the amounts
were not significant enough to have created a crack crisis in those cities and
that crack was already available when he began to supply it. "
> And here is what happened after:
> http://www.tfy.drugsense.org/bushwar.htm
> And here are last year's numbers:
> http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs/647/
>
> How rare is all that?
>
> This year's numbers should be out soon.
There is not a comparison to the 80's. As for the invention of crack
cocain in the middle eighties, perhaps so, my friends did not get into
it until 86, if I recall... and by 89 it was sweeping.
Regardless, I am sorry, but crime has been going down, severely. The drug
war did make a difference. You may think what you are stating is inflammatory
or something, but I see it as mainstream misperceptions. "The Culture
of Fear" is the book I am reading now and covers that well.
See, polls show that Americans have believed crime has been going
up, not down... a 62% of them... this is for a number of reasons...
but, all of these years they have been believing this: crime has been
dropping.
As for the drug culture... I am all for legalizing pot. Great. Should
be legal... but, that doesn't mean that the war did nothing, as much
as people have hated it.
>
> > I do not have any evidence that the police are better. I feel totally
> > safe with our police. We have profound reputations across the world
> > for our advances in forensic sciences.
>
> Yes, that is true. But, at the same time there is also a profound
> reputation across the world for the US murder rate, the incarceration
> rate, the state of inner cities, all sorts of things. and it isn't
> getting better.
Work of our media... violence makes ratings.
>
> > Oregon is full of freaks.
>
> Been to Manhattan? or Los Angeles? or Miami? They're worse for freaks.
> And psychos.
Dallas had such bad areas where I lived, St Paul, as well. Washington
is the worst, and New Orleans.
You seem to think you are buying a different line than what the
mainstream population thinks, but that is not really so. It is largely
a product of fascination with violence.
>
> > LOL. Yeah, well, I don't like our racism laws, but these guys are
> > terrorists. They say they are as much. They express as much intentions.
> > And, where are the cops? Why are they walking around, bragging about
> > these sorts of things on the internet?
>
> I don't know. you will have to ask the FBI about that. We ran them out
> of Canada five years ago. Here is their web address again, in case you
> want to pass it to authorities: http://www.rahowa.com/
>
> Most of their Canadian leaders have also immigrated to the US now.
They have the right to post hate messages. I have seen all sorts
in these groups. I do not agree with that right, but it is not
criminal unless they make threats.
>
> > We are really, really not tough on these guys. But, it is in the
> > name of "free speech"... free speech, lack of prison space, and
> > genuine incompetence.
>
> Free speech is very different in nations where license is understood.
I do not agree with that intepretation of the law, I think they should
be locked up. But, then again, I am in the middle because they are
easy to be infilitrated in this way. I wonder if they are.
>
> > I don't mind them going out in the open so they can be infilitrated...
> > but then I get the idea that they are not being infilitrated. And,
> > this really infuriates me.
>
> Complain. You have representatives in the government, there are
> newspapers always ready for letters, television news shows too. There
> are all kinds of ways to make things happen and one person really can do
> a lot if they put their mind to it. Best to not work from a point of
> fury though, best to be cold and calculating.
Again,
I do not agree with that intepretation of the law, I think they should
be locked up. But, then again, I am in the middle because they are
easy to be infilitrated in this way. I wonder if they are.
But, I do protest for them to be seen as the terrorists they are,
and I do maintain they should be investigated and locked up.
I am not political otherwise, I am an observer.
>
> > I disagree, Mississippi Burning was earth shattering for me. Schindler's
> > List... I can think of many such films that have impacted me positively
> > for years afterwards.
>
> That happens too, it just isn't as effective as educational campaigns
> and relics of popular culture that are actually installed in the
> community as fixtures.
>
I disagree that Canada is all that great.
<snip>
Bev Thornton
I don't know how close hobbyists can go but for the authorities it as
close as the resolution on the maps they're using, as close as GPS.
> Where, in Columbia? The letters from Pablo? Was the terrorism carried
> to Canada? Sorry, unaware of that.
No, they were anonymous letter to the editor of the Daily Gleaner
newspaper. The anonymous letters were written by someone who saw the
whole perimeter and knew it was being done wrong, the letters each day
of the trials would point out problems and give suggestions on
improvement. Through the letters the authorities were influenced
slowly to move the trial to a secure area, a rural courthouse beside a
large combat base, and to allow Canadian Forces to maintain the
perimeter. Once the trials were moved that way, the letters stopped.
One person can have a lot of influence no matter who they are.
There isn't much on the web on it. There is this, the refugee claim for
one of them who had served his sentence and wanted to work for us, he
was denied, decision probably influenced by coke money:
http://decisions.fct-cf.gc.ca/fct/1998/imm-3402-97.html
The man who put in that refugee claim is most likely dead now.
I have nothing but contempt for courts.
This outlines the sort of narco-terrorists involved:
http://www.tni.org/drugs/folder3/soberon.htm
This describes where their squad leaders were trained:
http://www.soaw.org/home.html
The ones who were caught attempting to mount a jailbreak operation in
Canada, the equipment they had, seems to me to indicate that we only got
two of the five trained squad leaders, that three other command elements
of the terrorist band vanished once the manhunt was on. It is very
difficult for tiny nations to fight narco-terrorists, they have more
money and all. Even more support, hidden support in diverse places.
> Very nice read, about a team who was in charge of disguises for
> the CIA... a lot about getting people out of countries, meeting
> with turncoats, infilitration, etc.
They aren't very good at that either. That is actually a Canadian
specialty, and we've only been caught afterward and when it is
successful. The escape of the Americans from the Iran Hostage Crisis,
for instance. Canadians have a long history of what is called 'mummery.'
In some communities it is still very strong in the popular culture.
Gives us a big advantage with that sort of thing. The multi-cultural
nature of our greater society also helps.
Have you ever tried any non-domestic US material on the CIA?
The turn-coats and infiltrators the CIA uses are mostly criminals and
traitors to their own cause or national interests. Also a mistake.
Recently I saw stuff on tv that they would have to deal with nefarious
characters in the current Afghanistan situation. What nonsense. They
really don't even know who to recruit as contract agents, they spend too
much time playing with ludicrously expensive, useless toys at the
stationhouse, chasing the chicks from the aid missions and just getting
drunk at the local American hotels. And then there is the drug and arms
dealing. CIA is so corrupt it is no wonder their advance intelligence
failed on 9/11. Even the French were able to interdict the Eiffel
attack. And their intelligence service is the laughing stock of all the
West and has been for two generations now.
Beware of mutual back-patting societies. They fool themselves.
> I disagree... crime took a serious nosedive in the nineties till
> now.
How could you know? Crime statistics only represent reporting and
detection - they go down when certain sorts of failures occur in
policing and courts.
> We literally beheaded their organizations.
No, their gangs were beheaded, the thugs at the top of the 'soldiers.'
They aren't and never have been the real Godfathers. that is all a show
to make a top-stop out of any infiltration or detection. The men at the
top are 'respectable' citizens.
Sometimes there are traces:
http://www.masonicinfo.com/p2_lodge.htm
And now our friends have new friends:
http://www.tri.org/drugs/folder1/blixen.htm
In WW2, they played both sides of the war, just like Iran/Contra:
http://www.mt.net/~watcher/nwonazi.html
Just a kook? Check some of the elements of the statements.
Our friends in Sicily helped us; the Italian ones did not.
> pretty well locked up as well. What is worse is that we were able
> to expose their secret workings, their organizational structures,
> their tactics...
Only their face in the street, faccia presente. If their heads were
really caught, there would be judges and bureaucrats and wealthy
nobodies in the dock.
> Mob... you are right about these things. And, the mob does still
> exist.
The mobs are only the street muscle, the soldato and sporgenze. They're
the riff-raff in the families.
> the Russian Mafiya has had a huge presence in the United States,
Putin is one.
> they are tougher than the Italian mob, they are crazier, they are
> smarter, but worse, as I believe it was Gorbachev who said, "they
> have their own country".
More than one.
> where the terrorists have their own land the government can not tresspass
> on... and all across the world...
Not all, some countries have adequate legislation and the tools and
will to deal with that part of the threat.
> at what they do because they do it for themselves and it is
> an easy way out of poverty or whatever else ails them.
The people at the top are not born into poverty and never have been for
very many generations now. Cosa nostra goes way, way back.
> is not giving them enough credit considering just what sort of odds
> they are facing and have faced.
They were good but they dropped the ball 19 years ago. The more rational
leaders were passing at that time and the hothead jewish terrorists were
rising from combat commands to politics and bureaucracy. The man behind
the 101 is now the Prime Minister.
Now they cannot handle children with stones.
> regions... of course, the Mossad, like the CIA have this horrible
> reputation with conspiracy theorists... whether that is good or
> not I do not know.
Do you like fiction? Umberto Eco's _Foucault's Pendulum_ has an
interesting premise.
> I would not really say the spy trials were speaking well of Britain,
> though... however, I do regard their SAS well.
They too are stuck in the past, stuck on World War 2. Their advance
parties got messed-up bad in Iraq. They got caught doing an
assassination in Gibraltor. They are afraid of snow. I've seen them in
the snow and they should be. Braggadacio makes for wimping. There is a
lot more too, reputation only goes so far. Ineffectiveness is easily
measured by state, the current UDF bombing campaign shows how
effectively the UK forces can deal with terrorism. In the Falklands,
they practically hid behind gurkhas, they way they used those guys. The
gurks are the goods. They aren't a counter-terrorist force either
though, but at least they know that.
Look at the embassy, negotitators blew it and two hostages were murdered
preventing the blowing of several breach charges and necessitating his
immediate rescue admidst flames. The SAS had to use a sledge-hammer ot
get in the door because of that, what a joke. One hostage was killed and
two wounded and the there was evidence of Stockholm Syndrome, another
failure on the part of negotiators. The idiots shot all the terrorists,
but one, severely limiting opportunity for interrogation and future
subversion. That was because when they hit the clutch they didn't handle
it properly, the three terrs there dropped arms and tried to blend with
the hostages, the SAS started screaming instead of bagging the lot, not
SOP and that lost two opportunities for interrogation right there.
Afterward they claimed it was because they were afraid of boobytrap and
had to shoot the terrs. Had they not known that booby-trapped terrs use
deadman's switches? Sure they did. They brokedown at the clutch and
made-up a lame excuse for it. Sure looked bad on the ropes there, too,
not impressive at all.
World War Two ended in '45. And a lot of soldiers and cops watch too
many movies.
> It can be a limited means... that is for sure, though I do remain
> aware that we have quite a number of once secrets out in the open
> not from bungling, but from memoirs of people in these intelligence
> agencies and investigative reporting and such...
They talk themselves up.
> as for criminals being bunglers, yes, they usually are... they get
> caught one time or another it would seem.
Only the unsuccessful and unlucky.
> Sure, though, I am not impressed with our propaganda war.
Some people should be ashamed of it.
> Is there a propaganda war?
Yes, and al Qaeda is winning it.
> We are missing something when we have all of these people who
> hate us.
That is correct. you are missing the effect of the CIA and the influence
it exerts on governments and industries. that is the long and short of
it, as it is now. CIA and DEA are full of evil fucks. They are the ones
who work outside the USA. But they have influence on US foreign policy,
they subvert it and do so invisibly to the American people.
For instance, Americans, by and large, have no idea what Libya is about,
what Cuba is about, not a clue, only illusions. And for so much of the
rest of the world, the view is distorted in similar fashions.
> I do not think any of these intelligence agencies except
> perhaps Israeli even have a strong infiltration force that works
> in these terrorist groups or works close to them...
hahahahaha.
Every major nation has trained terrorists. There are all kinds of 'our
friends.'
> them, watching their messages, becoming buddy buddy with them. We have
> done it here in the United States somewhat in the drug war, with
> Neo-Nazi's... but, abroad? Has the CIA really caught on?
Oh yeah, they are really good at what they do. What they do is not what
you think.
Iran/Contra was a cover-up. Cover-up.
Here is one scumball whistle-blower: http://www.almartinwar.com/
Is that a rat or what? That's the best of them.
> What agencies have men in the Middle East? Men who look Middle
> Eastern, who speak the language, and who walk about as one of
> them... travelling in these groups, talking to the radicals, going
> to meetings?
None! that's my story and I'm sticking to it. hahahahaha
> Remember Hoover's saying, "There is no mafia"
No, didn't even know about it. What was the context? Sounds absurd. you
know, that's 'my family' and not all of 'our friends.'
> And, they don't get caught. They don't go to jail. The flamboyant
> ones do, some get caught, and they tell... but it is so often
> not enough to do anything.
Barking up the wrong tree is what it is.
> is the desk warmers begin to make all of the policy, and it is
> never close to the streets.
That happens too. Assholes abound.
> No, though I do not have many thoughts about Libya at all... we have
> not really considered them such an enemy for about a decade.
Never should have at all. Diplomatic failure caused by ignorance and
misinformation, then it ran amuck. Booglers did it, CIA coverts, special
sort of spook, manipulates realities or the appearance of them. The only
reason Libya is not still under harassment is because all the assets in
the region have their hands full since Kuwait in 90. Spaces are large.
> I am aware of Sudan, been slamming the point home for sometime on
> these groups. I am aware of OBL's connection with Sudan to some
> degree.
Somalia too. And now, with all the mergings, they have cells in a third
of the nations of the world -> al Qaeda.
>> http://mandla.ca.za/al-qalam/1998/AprilMay98/Libya.htm
>
> Dead host... what are the points I will look it up?
I am getting sick of this. The past six weeks, there is an odd pattern
to the links that go dead. These links are automatically verified as I
post them, if one is munged or down I know it as soon as the post shows
up on news servers. However, if it goes down fifteen minutes after that,
I have no way of knowing that the link went dead, there are only fifteen
minutes of checks to the URLs on four servers on two continents.
That was to the big Libyan peace plan that carried counter-terrorism
and everything. It has been going on for years but that was the
beginning of the big, new Libyan push for peace and stability throughout
Africa and the near mideast.
>> http://www.wipl.com/wipl_kano.htm
>
> 404
What the fuck? A health club? Oh, that is just fucked.
I post terrorist links and they are still up and running. And a peace
link turns into a health club 404 within hours?
Look, I posted these over a week ago -
http://www.ummah.net.pk/dharb/
News, Articles, Radio, Weather, Resources, Exchange Rates
That is al Qaeda's news service, one of them, that paper, not al Jazeera
tv. al Jazeera tv is who bin Laden uses to talk to us, not his people.
Here is what he just said; don't worry it will be up,
it fits the script:
http://news.excite.com/rews/r/011103/10/news-attack-binladen-text-dc
> cia factbook
ha - ha - ha - ha
They are in the chocolate ration adjustment business now. I'm not sure
what to think of this.
> Uhm, hrrm... I do not think we would block it, besides if it is
> up at all, I could reach it through any one of numerous proxies.
That is the civilian idea of the Internet. The military approch is
different, it was made for them, not us. They are not stupid. Academics
are ignorant, arrogant fools in some ways.
>> And here is an article on the Libyan's original beef:
>> http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/Shalomlyb1.hmtl
>
> 404 - again, what are the issues? This is why I do not keep
> bookmarks, they all die in a few months.
How often in hours? These are all verified as I type them and then
again on four well-propagated servers. They were up to fifteen minutes
after the posts appeared on servers on two continents. Every one of
them.
> Yeah, I worked with a Canadian "diplomat" before, the noxious fellow. lol.
Are they sickening or what, eh? There are a very few good ones who work
awfully hard.
> Hrrm, how, exactly is the US blocking it?
Done by DNS on the backbones. The health club is cute. All sorts of
ways. Just getting the big services to not handle the little servers
with the material actually on it is the normal way. There are major
bottlenecks world-wide, designed bottlenecks in the manner civilian
Internet service is provided.
> All of these sites you
> gave me are 404 -- I only take that as any other bookmark you have
> from old and didn't check. Had you told me the topics I could have
> found the issues in a few minutes.
And the message would have been thousands of lines long. already these
posts in this thread are huge.
What you take is incorrect. Look at the headers on this message, I use
the OpenBSD operating system and a lot of other stuff too. I have
scripts to do all sorts of things, including checking all the links
before they go to the servers and afterward. I have corrected them on
this newsgroup before, ones that moved after posting or ones that were
munged by sloppy keyboarding on my part after the automatic pre-check. I
have arthritis and sometimes accidentally hit command keys in the
editor, that is why I have the checking scripts for URLs. I have been
providing URLs for people in suicidal crisis for years, in that context
a dead link can be disasterous to the person in distress. So I have the
link checkers, before and after the fact, double checked after the fact,
three minutes and fifteen. And I've had that for years, used to do it
with Agent and complimentary software for it, before that under Win3.11
it was NautNews, before that under DOS, Commset. I have always used the
most sophisticated and exotic of newsreaders, or in the case of Agent a
simple one with a lot of supporting software. I know what I am doing and
have been doing just that since 1993. This newsreader I am using now,
for instance, it takes s-lang macro language, easy scripting and with it
I can run smoother than emacs-based readers and the like.
I do not at this time have the resources or time to operate or even
particiapte in an Eternity server. Henceforth, I am going to be a lot
more careful about the URLs I post on the newsgroups. I am also going to
consider other approaches to deal with this odd pattern of dying links.
> it, but Gandhi's definition in his autobiography. I recall it
> distinctly because I made a jacket then with the word right
> across it after reading his autobiography.
Well, I would wonder about the translation. Satyaghara is 'great gentle
pot' in Hindi understanding and that is not at all like 'soul' + 'force'
in Western understanding. Stayaghara could generate 'soulforce' but it
would not be the soulforce itself in the Western conception of the force
of souls.
> Whatever, I checked out this page now, and looked at infra red,
> visual surveillance, a few others... same stuff we have here, nothing
> special at all. They are not even selling laser microphones or
> bugs on their pages. My local shop even, a small little place has
> a larger online catalogue.
Did you look at the counter-surveillance pages? That is what Spy City is
about, that other stuff, what you mention above, the surveillance stuff,
it is bread and butter from the rubes. Real surveillance gear comes
from alarm and security companies. I am unaware of a US place that has
the same counter-surveillance equipment. May be be though, not really
something I'd know. No interest in that.
> Somewhat aware of that, the movie "Three Kings" btw, holds
> that view and played it out quite well. (As this came from
> our 'lousy' media).
Never saw the film. what is it about?
>> Then that is a grave and short-sighted error. Or an insidious design.
>> One or the other.
>
> He obviously does not want to face a trial.
Yes, because he knows that is the only way he loses.
> Israel penetrated the ranks and found this to be the case,
> with the help of an American... this was not too long ago,
> they made a movie about it.
Bad sign. Reels do spin.
> Then, there are the cases of
> the Nazi's who were being hunted by the Mossad, et al... and
> the help they recieved from Germany, from lesser known ones...
Yes. I am aware of the Latin American, African and Asian communities
too. But did they really organize much? they seemed pretty isolationist
last I looked at them but that was the seventies and I was young.
> True, to an extent, but I won't be arguing to let serial killers
> walk free anytime soon.
No. But even there, killing them is a waste of a fine specimen for
study. To prevent, we must know everything and have an idea of causes.
> he felt jealous of Manson. As crazy as Manson is, and yes, that was
> his "intention" with his group, to start a race war... he didn't,
> according to his own account, and that of Watson himself, order
> that specific crime.
Just like bin Laden probably did not order the 9/11 attack. They are a
movement cell structure. Top down knowledge makes them vulnerable. The
terrorist trainees learn to organize, plan and execute the whole show on
their own, their part of it. C3 is minimal.
> This is what Quantico's profile came to. The lawyer's book, if I recall,
> did not come to that conclusion.
Ed Sanders, _The Family_, he even knew them personally before the
murders.
> I have never heard anyone deny that she was kidnapped. Not even
> from the SLA... I found her story to be quite true sounding, and
> very plausible. But, to say there wasn't even a kidnapping...
It is possible to tell a lot of different stories if you own a press.
> There is not a comparison to the 80's. As for the invention of crack
> cocain in the middle eighties, perhaps so, my friends did not get into
> it until 86, if I recall... and by 89 it was sweeping.
Now synthetics are up. I suspect cocaine is too. I wonder what the rehab
people say about how many beds they need.
> Work of our media... violence makes ratings.
Werther Effect. Media violence has odd effects, more than just suicide.
> You seem to think you are buying a different line than what the
> mainstream population thinks, but that is not really so. It is largely
> a product of fascination with violence.
Product of entertainment of the fascination with violence. Facination
does not create spectacle, that is entertainment.
> They have the right to post hate messages. I have seen all sorts
> in these groups. I do not agree with that right, but it is not
> criminal unless they make threats.
Links off that page go to hit lists. With people named.
See if you can find the way, that site is still up:
http://www.rahowa.com/
Links from there can even take you to pages where collusion with their
movement and al Qaeda is discussed and where there are statements
regarding the deaths of Americans, on one page such text is linked to a
hit list.
Audio too: http://www.rahowa.org/
Religious fundamentalist extremists.
> I do not agree with that intepretation of the law, I think they should
> be locked up. But, then again, I am in the middle because they are
> easy to be infilitrated in this way. I wonder if they are.
hahahahaha
I'm not posting links about who set up those groups and how and when it
was done. I am going to think about things instead.
> I do not agree with that intepretation of the law, I think they should
> be locked up. But, then again, I am in the middle because they are
> easy to be infilitrated in this way. I wonder if they are.
Cat got your keyboard?
> But, I do protest for them to be seen as the terrorists they are,
> and I do maintain they should be investigated and locked up.
They are still serving billions. The Islamic peace movement is shut-off
> I am not political otherwise, I am an observer.
Uhuh.
> I disagree that Canada is all that great.
Wait and see.
SuperNova
Action" Anthrax Suspect, White Supremacist and Islamic Extremist Terrorist
Groups Connection", Oct 27, 2001.
reference (Bev's positing history with me):
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=SuperNova+author:Bev+author:Thornton&hl=en&scoring=d&start=10&sa=N&filter=0
In that post I linked Islamic Extremism and White Supremacists.
Bev's take on it was that the crackdown on White Supremacist groups
would be good for them and bad for the United States. I disagreed.
reference (shows Bev's reply):
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=SuperNova+author:Bev+author:Thornton&start=10&hl=en&scoring=d&rnum=19&selm=OlCC7.123077%24ob.2762486%40news1.rdc1.bc.home.com&filter=0
reference (shows I started the thread and what I posted):
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&threadm=OlCC7.123077%24ob.2762486%40news1.rdc1.bc.home.com&rnum=19&prev=/groups%3Fq%3DSuperNova%2Bauthor:Bev%2Bauthor:Thornton%26start%3D10%26hl%3Den%26scoring%3Dd%26rnum%3D19%26selm%3DOlCC7.123077%2524ob.2762486%2540news1.rdc1.bc.home.com%26filter%3D0
In another article of mine, where I showed that Islamic extremists
were working from within the United States, Bev replied to that
as well:
This was the next day. In this post I showed that Muslims were actually
the originators of some of the worst genocides in history... and despite
all of their "we are so wronged talk", that they are the ones who
so wrong others. I used the examples of Sudan, India, and Pakistan...
I pointed out that while Muslims get upset about using the word "crusade",
the fact is they are running "holy crusades" themselves and doing so
with absolute prejudice.
Bev had problems with these points and wanted to try and claim Rwanda
was a Christian crusade against non-Christians. In fact, it is not, and
I pulled out references saying as much. That is not enough though, what
upsets me is that Bev would do this in face of the very facts not enough
people are hearing. The extremist Muslims not only have atrocities within
their lands... they are the originators and culpable for some of the worst
genocides on the planet.
I don't like people trying to cover that up. These people have not issued
"apostasy orders" against any of these "jihadists", and until they do
all of their "Islam is peaceful" talk is just that, talk.
There are a few other points I disagreed with this "Bev" character on. I
disagreed that Bush "made millions from crack cocaine". I disagree that
'Americans all have a problem with certain words'. I disagreed that 'crime
in America is on the rise these past ten years'. I disagreed that 'crime
is so much worse in America than in Canada'.
For all of these points, I was polite, and I dutifully dug up irrefutable
evidence. I did definitely wonder why I was wasting my time with this
individual.
Then, Bev posted about seven links to me which were all dead. He
did not mention what they were about, but expected me to comment on
them. I pointed out they were all dead, and pointed out "anybody who
reads this article can see that"... and Bev started to ramble on
about "American conspiracies", and then insinuated in sideways
manners that I was lying.
Bev went on to talk at length about his operating system and his
newsreader. Finally, he got down to point out that his newsreader
checks these links before and after posting them.
Shortly after this "Bev" starts two new threads on the subject,
rambling about how "404" means a "health club", and throwing
in statements like "so what, sunshine". This "Decker" poster
below alerted me to the fact that for these several back and
forths between "Bev" and myself... I was not getting that he
was cruelly slandering me by deliberately confusing me with
someone whom posts the exact opposite stances of which I have
been taking.
reference :-> this is Bev's reply, he had first given me this
bad links, then had stated, "this one will work", then when
I said it did not, he doubted me he just said "so"... and this
post shows how he was throwing these slurs at me unbeknownest
to me. ("Sunshine" being his reference to "DayLight").
Here Bev claims I am this "sunshine" fellow, "daylight", whatever,
though I did not see this because I do not read their newsgroup.
Here is where Bev started to get really weird, and my reply to him. In
this reply he posts a lot of URL's, and I explain they are all, or almost
all dead:
As can be seen from the chornological order here, Bev takes from
that confrontation of his dead links and starts new, bizarre threads:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Bev+Thornton+author:SuperNova&hl=en&scoring=d&filter=0
At one place he seems to insinuate in one of the new threads that
I am somehow connected with white supremacist groups, and he posts
url's saying, "look at your groups".
I take this as very odd, but find it very hard to believe someone who
has perhaps thousands of posts against Neo-Nazi's and Islamic extremists
could possibly throw such a slanderous remark against me. So, I take
that what he was saying was that "because I am an American, I am
guilty of these groups existing"... and, I state I need clarification
for his insinuation, as well as condemning it for being a
severe fallacy of logic.
It was then that "Bev" was giving me non-answers, non-apologies
on these URL's, and trying to take my statements that frankly said, 'I
disagree with the laws that allow hate sites to exist from
within America'... to meaning the exact opposite.
Unbeknownst to me, Bev was all along issuing a far sicker and
more subtle slanderous charge all along with his strange "daylight"
and "sunshine" comments... which, I obviously took as bizarre
statements about the literal daylight from a bizarre person whom
exhibits some mental instability.
As for me, anyone can read my many posts by merely looking
up my name or subscribing to soc.culture.israel:
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_uauthors=SuperNova
What this person has tried to do is to try and slander me,
but not directly to my face... nor by actually using any of
my word's as evidence, or any other evidence. They have done
so while I have sat there in good faith, patiently answering
them, having no idea that they were doing so. I had suspicions,
but this "Bev" fellow seemed to have stated to me that
they were not attempting to announce these ludicrous
charges.
In doing so, they have utterly reversed my stance without
actually stealing my name - and then claimed I was saying
the opposite of what I say everyday. Being that Bev seems
to not entirely disagree with what I am saying, I can
only imagine he did this because he felt threatened that
I may have been saying it better than he... and without
the conspiracy theories that have no evidence behind them.
And, this is how we work. We expose the lies of the extremist
Muslims and the Neo-Nazi's. In doing so we always rely on
evidence anyone can judge or see for themselves, and we are
always one hundred percent correct. That is the genuine difference
between us and them.
As for these other people... either hold to facts and
dispel foolish conspiracy theories or get off the boat.
Slander is never excusable, especially not disgusting slander
done in an underhanded way.
What is slander? Slander is bearing false witness. There are
different charges. The sort of slander "Bev" was tossing out
at me, albeit not directly because the evidence severely
contradicted his false charges... was both as extreme as it
gets, and done in the most underhanded way possible so that
I would not be able to defend myself and expose his
evil.
Slander is what drove the Muslims to say, "The Jews were
behind the 9/11 attacks". Slander is what drives them to
target the world with terrorism. Slander is what drove
Adolph Hitler's Nazi movement, and slander is what drove
Stalin to slaughter millions of religious people.
There is absolutely no excuse for that type of slander,
ever!
The difference between that and real accusations is that
real accusations have evidence. They are not contary to
evidence. This evidence may be shown to anyone. Discerning
people understand the concept of evidence. This is how
they see through these liars, and are able to confront them
and knock down every single one of their points.
Slanderers, though, can not knock down points. They can
only work by deception and trickery. They have to rely
on lies, which are easy to expose. They do not mind calling
someone the worst thing they can imagine, or the worst
thing that person can imagine. They go for it.
SuperNova
has perhaps thousands of posts against Neo-Nazi's and Islamic extremists... that
someone could possibly throw such a slanderous remark against me.
So, I take that what he was saying was that "because I am an American, I am
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_uauthors=SuperNova
SuperNova wrote:
>
> Decker wrote:
> >
> > Bev Thornton wrote:
> >
> > > SuperNova, in <3BE4FDC1...@ehstag.com>, wrote:
> > > >
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > > You seem to be reading something strange into what
> > > > I wrote... something malicious that I can not decipher.
> > >
> > > Good.
> > >
> > > A SuperNova, is that anything like Daylight?
> >
> > Bev, it seems you are implying that SuperNova and Daylight are the same
> > people, but I don't think SuperNova is catching on to your subtle references.
> > I know you've been trying to sort out the "sock puppets" for the last few
> > days... are you solid on this allegation?
>
> No, I am not "catching on to the subtle reference". I was tending to
> think Bev is a bit off. However, now let me see what he is saying...
>
> "DayLight" Posters History
> http://groups.google.com/groups?as_uauthors=Daylight
>
> Oh, great, the exact opposite of what I post.
>
> "SuperNova" Posters History
> http://groups.google.com/groups?q=author%3ASuperNova&hl=en
>
> So, Bev is definitely off, as off as someone could be.
>
> I do not appreciate slander in the least. Especially because "Bev"
> twists my words into their exact opposite meaning and then goes
> further to slide dirty insinuations at me which I would not have caught
> because I post from soc.culture.israel! Slander which is the exact
> opposite of my stance!
>
> What are my views? Anyone can read my posts above and find out!
>
> I am:
>
> -> against extremist Islam
> -> against Neo-Nazi groups
> -> reminding people of Islamic slaughters against Christians and Hindus
> -> Pro-Israeli
> -> Pro-United States
> -> Anti-Terrorism
>
> I say as much very fluently and I have literally spent enough time
> doing as much since 9/11 that no one could possibly question my
> integerity on this issue.
>
> Let me remind everyone, it is very simple to put forth such insidious
> slanderous remarks on someone in an underhanded manner... so I was
> sitting there like a fool while he was issuing this charge at me, not
> even having the decency to bring it to the forefront or tell me to
> my face...!
>
> If anybody wishes to try and bring some slanderous charge against
> me, then do so! Now! Say it, don't insinuate like a worm! I have more
> than enough evidence which will utterly wipe out any such ludicrous
> slander.
>
> If you see me as furious about this - understand I do not like
> slander, and I especially resent this sort of underhanded whispering
> and finger pointing.
>
> Slander is the reason for all of these problems in the world,
> so thanks a lot for contributing to the pool, you cowardly false
> witnesses!
>
> >
> > I like your style... one of the more informed and well referenced posters
> > I've seen on Usenet and I too have been around since '93. I know you are well
> > respected in a.s.d and I've read enough of your posts here the past few
> > weeks... and elsewhere over the past couple of years to understand your
> > propaganda and your intentions. Kudos.
> >
> > BTW, for all those who confuse your gender. I went to High School with a chap
> > named Beverley (Baever Ley) Conners. Despite the teasing from the jocks he
> > carried his name with pride. Since my mothers name is also Beverley, I had
> > great respect for him.
> >
> > Keep up the good work my bookmarks are growing daily.
> >
> > Decker
SuperNova
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_uauthors=SuperNova
SuperNova wrote:
>
> Decker wrote:
> >
> > Bev Thornton wrote:
> >
Bev Thornton
>
> [Cancelled first replies, replacing with these because of errors.]
Regroup, revise, recover, eh, Sunshine?
SuperNova
Bev Thornton wrote:
>
> SuperNova, in <3BE6A8D4...@ehstag.com>, wrote:
> >
> > [Cancelled first replies, replacing with these because of errors.]
>
> Regroup, revise, recover, eh, Sunshine?
Excuse me?
Stop your slander, and stop your persecution. And, because I am
angry, does not mean your slander is correct, fool. I don't care
if you do post some good links. You are highly unstable and turn
on anyone at any moment for the most bizarre of reasons.
The only person you seem to not be critical of is yourself.
Below is the crap Bev put me through, including the slander (when
he is saying "sunshine" he is trying to link me to this character
"daylight" who holds the opposite view that I hold).
The evidence, which Bev can not refute, is below.
*****************************************************************
Bev Thornton
None happened, Sunshine - you're paranoid.
SuperNova
Bev Thornton wrote:
>
> SuperNova, in <3BE7DE67...@ehstag.com>, wrote:
> >
> > Stop your slander, and stop your persecution.
>
> None happened, Sunshine - you're paranoid.
I posted it in verbatim. What do you mean when you call me "Sunshine"?
Huh? You slandering liar! I did NOTHING TO YOU!
Bev Thornton
>
> I posted it in verbatim. What do you mean when you call me "Sunshine"?
That you're just another nutbar who would seek to silence others and
attempt to do so by bullying tactics such as stalking and overwhelming.
> Huh? You slandering liar! I did NOTHING TO YOU!
So what?
And just who is slandering who?
Eh, Sunshine?
SuperNova
Bev Thornton wrote:
>
> SuperNova, in <3BE81587...@ehstag.com>, wrote:
> >
> > I posted it in verbatim. What do you mean when you call me "Sunshine"?
>
> That you're just another nutbar who would seek to silence others and
> attempt to do so by bullying tactics such as stalking and overwhelming.
>
> > Huh? You slandering liar! I did NOTHING TO YOU!
>
> So what?
>
> And just who is slandering who?
>
You were slandering me by claiming I was this "daylight" fellow,
and various other things such as implying I was a Neo-Nazi, extremist
Muslim, etc. I never said anything wrong whatsoever.
I provided word by word evidence of this. Others whom I did not even
know saw it and agreed. No one who commented on it disagreed.
Now, you are saying I am not this "daylight" person by denying
you ever said any such thing. Great. Whatever.
Bev Thornton
>
> You were slandering me by claiming I was this "daylight" fellow,
That never happened, Sunshine.
> and various other things such as implying I was a Neo-Nazi, extremist
> Muslim, etc. I never said anything wrong whatsoever.
So what?
> I provided word by word evidence of this. Others whom I did not even
> know saw it and agreed. No one who commented on it disagreed.
So what?
> Now, you are saying I am not this "daylight" person by denying
> you ever said any such thing. Great. Whatever.
Life is strange for you; isn't it, Sunshine?
§ Mr. Fix-it §
enjoying it.
Ignore him.
--
¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤
¤ § Mr. Fix-it § ¤
¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤
.
"SuperNova" <ehs...@ehstag.com> wrote in message
news:3BE847FE...@ehstag.com...
Larry R
worked in consort and been paid by the racist movements. They send them out
to take pictures of Jewish Synagogues that have been vandalized, or for
other hate literature purposes in their papers. Birds of a Feather, so to
speak.
ROOTS
"Bev Thornton" <lusit...@home.com> wrote in message
news:OYXF7.20969$Ud.7...@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com...
SuperNova
"§ Mr. Fix-it §" wrote:
>
> Why do you let "Bev" yank your chain? You're getting all upset and he's
> enjoying it.
>
> Ignore him.
I am ignoring him now. Thanks.