One more reason I don't buy German cars, etc.

[mm]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/01/world/europe/klaas-faber-war-criminal-from-the-netherlands-dies-at-90.html


"When the Nazis occupied the Netherlands, Mr. Faber and his brother
Pieter Johan Faber joined the German SS death squads operating there.
In 1947 a Dutch court convicted Klaas Faber of taking part in killings
at three Dutch locations, including the Westerbork transit camp, where
Dutch Jews, among them Anne Frank, were held before being sent to
concentration camps. His brother was also convicted of participating
in murders.

Both brothers were sentenced to death. Pieter Johan was executed by a
firing squad. But Klaas Faber’s punishment was commuted to a life
sentence on appeal because it could not be proved that he had
personally been involved in killings.

Their father, Pieter Faber, had been a senior member of the Dutch Nazi
Party, according to Agence-France Press. He was killed by the Dutch
resistance in 1944.

In December 1952 Mr. Faber broke out of a prison in the southern
Netherlands city of Breda along with six other former SS men, and they
made their way to the West German city of Essen, some 90 miles away.
Soon afterward, Mr. Faber received German citizenship under Hitler’s
1943 directive, which had not been repealed.

The Dutch first sought Mr. Faber’s extradition in 1954, but the German
authorities blocked that — along with subsequent efforts — asserting
that German law prohibited extradition of citizens."

The Dutch tried again in 2004, 2006, and 2010.

"....But Mr. Faber was not in hiding. He had lived in Ingolstadt for
many years, holding an office job with the Audi automobile company. "


So he died of natural causes at age 92, , with a wife and 3 children.


One more reason I don't buy German cars, etc. I think any Jew who
does is s fool, or worse.


The situation with Ford is very different.
--

Meir

[Yisroel Markov]

On Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:00:14 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>
said:

>http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/01/world/europe/klaas-faber-war-criminal-from-the-netherlands-dies-at-90.html

[snip]

>One more reason I don't buy German cars, etc. I think any Jew who
>does is s fool, or worse.

"A fool or worse" - not "holding a differing opinion of corporate
culpability"?

>The situation with Ford is very different.

Is it, really?
--
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand

[mm]

On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 20:53:55 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
<ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:00:14 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>
>said:
>
>>http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/01/world/europe/klaas-faber-war-criminal-from-the-netherlands-dies-at-90.html
>
>[snip]
>
>>One more reason I don't buy German cars, etc. I think any Jew who
>>does is s fool, or worse.
>
>"A fool or worse" - not "holding a differing opinion of corporate
>culpability"?

No.

>
>>The situation with Ford is very different.
>
>Is it, really?

Yes.
--

Meir

[Dennis]

mm wrote:

> On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 20:53:55 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov

> <m> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:00:14 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm20com>
>>said:
>>
>>>http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/01/world/europe/klaas-faber-war-crimina

>>>l-from-the-netherlands-dies-at-90.html
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>>One more reason I don't buy German cars, etc. I think any Jew who
>>>does is s fool, or worse.
>>
>>"A fool or worse" - not "holding a differing opinion of corporate
>>culpability"?
>
> No.
>>
>>>The situation with Ford is very different.
>>
>>Is it, really?
>
> Yes.

How so? I don't recall Ford's actions during WWII, or subsequently in
matters like this.

Dennis

[cindys]

----
Ford and the Fuhrer were good friends. The Fuhrer invited Ford to set
up a car factory in Germany before the war, which he did. Before the
war, Ford also printed all sorts of anti-Jewish rhetoric in his
newspaper, _The Dearborn Independent_ for the Fuhrer. I just recently
read somewhere (but I don't know if it's true), that the Fuhrer could
not print antisemitic material in Germany at the time because doing so
was illegal. The other member of the notorious antisemitic triumvirate
was Charles Lindbergh.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[mm]

On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 19:53:41 +0000 (UTC), Dennis
<tsalagi...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>mm wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 20:53:55 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
>> <m> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:00:14 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm20com>
>>>said:
>>>
>>>>http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/01/world/europe/klaas-faber-war-criminal-from-the-netherlands-dies-at-90.html
>>>
>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>>One more reason I don't buy German cars, etc. I think any Jew who
>>>>does is s fool, or worse.
>>>
>>>"A fool or worse" - not "holding a differing opinion of corporate
>>>culpability"?
>>
>> No.

This answer could have been longer. If my predicate noun were
different, it it weren't "fool", I would have made an exception for
Israelis and those who out of youth or ignorance didnt' know much
about Germany, especially since the war. (As I said the last time I
wrote about this, using different words) I still exclude Israelis
and a substantial fraction of others from "worse".

But as to the word "fool", I note the common phrase, which I use
myself, "He's making a fool out of you". This clearly implies that
the person addressed would have become a fool even if no one told him
that was what was happening, and even if he didn't realize it himself.
And that conforms with most other uses of "fool". One doesn't have to
know that he's a fool or why he's a fool to be a fool.

>>>
>>>>The situation with Ford is very different.
>>>
>>>Is it, really?
>>
>> Yes.
>
>How so? I don't recall Ford's actions during WWII, or subsequently in
>matters like this.

The OPost in this thread was not about actions during the war. The
URL cited was about how Germany protected a known nazi from his
punishment, after he esecaped from a life sentence in a Dutch jail.
After they gave him citizenship. The USA never did that. And Ford
Motors didn't either.

During the war there were maybe 5 or 10 percent of the germans who did
something to oppose hitler and/or his murders, or at least really
wanted to but were scared. .. How do we know? From the next sentence:
After the war, there was 5 or 10 percent of the germans who actively
promoted pacifism, disarmament, no army for germans, stuff like that.
They were for the most part, the same 10%.

>Dennis

--

Meir

[Yisroel Markov]

On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 22:58:11 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>

said:

>On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 20:53:55 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
><ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:00:14 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>
>>said:
>>
>>>http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/01/world/europe/klaas-faber-war-criminal-from-the-netherlands-dies-at-90.html
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>>One more reason I don't buy German cars, etc. I think any Jew who
>>>does is s fool, or worse.
>>
>>"A fool or worse" - not "holding a differing opinion of corporate
>>culpability"?
>
>No.

Well, that's positively right-winged of you!

[snip]

[mm]

On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 22:21:07 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov

<ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 22:58:11 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>
>said:
>
>>On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 20:53:55 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
>><ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:00:14 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>
>>>said:
>>>
>>>>http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/01/world/europe/klaas-faber-war-criminal-from-the-netherlands-dies-at-90.html
>>>
>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>>One more reason I don't buy German cars, etc. I think any Jew who
>>>>does is s fool, or worse.
>>>
>>>"A fool or worse" - not "holding a differing opinion of corporate
>>>culpability"?
>>
>>No.
>
>Well, that's positively right-winged of you!

I'm a moderate. Specifically, I'm centered around moderate
liberalness. Many liberal positions are too liberal for me, and many
conservative positions are far too conservative for me. Although
unlike the steriotype, I seem to be getting more liberal wth age,
because I find the conservative positions these days to be incorrect
and based on mistakes (or worse). . A couple decades ago or so, their
positions on the then-current big issues were correct, though
impractical. There are a lot of posts of yours in reply to mine that
I should have replied to. Maybe I'll have time some time.

It takes an awful lot to get me mad, but once mad, I'm not very
forgiving. Probably because I only got angry in the first place when
it was really serious, and the same people who behave the worst are
not the ones who make amends the best, or even moderately well. . No
one has gotten me near as angry as the germans. If they had behaved
with sterling character since then, I would probably have forgiven
them, but that's way beyond their ability.

>[snip]

--

Meir

[Dennis]

mm wrote:

> On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 19:53:41 +0000 (UTC), Dennis

No, though as another poster noted, Henry Ford was a notorious antisemite
, who built a car factory in prewar Hitler's Germany.

> During the war there were maybe 5 or 10 percent of the germans who did
> something to oppose hitler and/or his murders, or at least really
> wanted to but were scared. .. How do we know? From the next sentence:
> After the war, there was 5 or 10 percent of the germans who actively
> promoted pacifism, disarmament, no army for germans, stuff like that.
> They were for the most part, the same 10%.

I remember reading in a book by Erich Fromm that there was a survey done
in Germany just before Hitler came to power that showed the same
fractions; 10% violently against the Nazis, 10% violently for, and the
rest fairly neutral. Something like that.

Dennis

[mm]

Yeah, I know that, and I hate Ford the person, and I don't buy Fords
(unless they were to make a product that no one else made) , but I
don't *hate* Ford Motors. For anyone left who doesn't think there is
a big difference between Ford cars and German cars**, I'll just offer
A) chaque a sangue, B) de gustibus, no es disputandum, and C) I'll
decide for myself whom I'm going to hate.

Just as Golem couldn't convince me to hate fewer people, it's not
likely anyone will convince me to hate more people either.

**Despite the pig in the original post working openly for Audi.


In the summer 1973, I went to Europe to go to France to learn French,
as I had learned Spanish in Central America in 1971. But since the
plane landed in Amsterdam, first I visited a Flemish girl I had
traveled with, platonically, for a couple weeks in Mexico and
Guatemala. It turned out the friend she was going on summer vacation
with couldn't go, so she took me, to Czecholovakia.

We had to cross Germany, and we did so only spending about 25 cents
each, for one apple each. We didnt' have to buy gas, and we did stay
one night at a campground. We got there at 7 or 8 after the guy
collecting money had left, and we awakened at 6 and left before he got
back. I still would have paid, left the money on his desk or
something, but she didn't want to, and I certainly wasn't going to
argue. So in this one way, she seemed angrier at them than I was.
And why was she angry? She said, because during WWII, maybe 33 years
earlier, before she was born I think, French Belgians, collaborating I
guess with the occupying Germans and using the opportunity when they
could to dump on Flemish Belgians, had put her father in jail.
And how long was he in jail? Two nights.

Well, that's what she said. I supposed the Germans did a lot of other
things that her family didn't like either, but she didnt' mention any.
. (This is one reason I have doubts about how long the EuroZone and
the Euro will last)

>> During the war there were maybe 5 or 10 percent of the germans who did
>> something to oppose hitler and/or his murders, or at least really
>> wanted to but were scared. .. How do we know? From the next sentence:
>> After the war, there was 5 or 10 percent of the germans who actively
>> promoted pacifism, disarmament, no army for germans, stuff like that.
>> They were for the most part, the same 10%.

There is still 10% who on the literal issue of non-aggressoin, etc.
are right. How they feel about Jews might still run the gamut.

AIUI, the motives even of those who tried to kill hitler were to save
germany from losing the war totally, and had nothing to do with the
murder of Jews, gypsies, etc.

>
>I remember reading in a book by Erich Fromm that there was a survey done
>in Germany just before Hitler came to power that showed the same
>fractions; 10% violently against the Nazis, 10% violently for, and the
>rest fairly neutral. Something like that.

I either got my idea from a single source like that, or I pieced it
together from reading the news, etc. for 50 years.

>Dennis

--

Meir

[mm]

On Fri, 15 Jun 2012 06:59:06 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

>de gustibus, no es disputandum,

Oops.

de gustibus, non es disputandum,

No is the Spanish word, non is Latin.

Shel ta'amim, ain shailot?

--

Meir

[Herman Rubin]

On 2012-06-14, Yisroel Markov <ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 22:58:11 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>
> said:

>>On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 20:53:55 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
>><ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:

>>>On Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:00:14 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>
>>>said:

>>>>http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/01/world/europe/klaas-faber-war-criminal-from-the-netherlands-dies-at-90.html

>>>[snip]

>>>>One more reason I don't buy German cars, etc. I think any Jew who
>>>>does is s fool, or worse.

>>>"A fool or worse" - not "holding a differing opinion of corporate
>>>culpability"?

>>No.

> Well, that's positively right-winged of you!

[snip]

To counter this, consider my own experience. In the early 1960s,
we considered buying a Volkswagen. Having somewhat similar
misgivings, we consulted Professor Rokeach, who was Israeli.
He stated that most of the cars in Israel were Volksvagens,
provided by Germany as compensation.


--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hru...@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

[mm]

On Fri, 15 Jun 2012 16:12:36 +0000 (UTC), Herman Rubin
<hru...@skew.stat.purdue.edu> wrote:

>On 2012-06-14, Yisroel Markov <ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 22:58:11 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>
>> said:
>
>>>On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 20:53:55 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
>>><ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
>
>>>>On Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:00:14 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>
>>>>said:
>
>>>>>http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/01/world/europe/klaas-faber-war-criminal-from-the-netherlands-dies-at-90.html
>
>>>>[snip]
>
>>>>>One more reason I don't buy German cars, etc. I think any Jew who
>>>>>does is s fool, or worse.
>
>>>>"A fool or worse" - not "holding a differing opinion of corporate
>>>>culpability"?
>
>>>No.
>
>> Well, that's positively right-winged of you!
>
> [snip]
>
>To counter this, consider my own experience. In the early 1960s,
>we considered buying a Volkswagen. Having somewhat similar
>misgivings, we consulted Professor Rokeach, who was Israeli.
>He stated that most of the cars in Israel were Volksvagens,
>provided by Germany as compensation.

Yes, they probably foresaw the result of paying compensatiion by means
of cars, and if so, it was clever of them. . It got Israelis used to
the idea of german cars, so they were willing to get them even when
there was no more compensation and they had to pay. That's why I
don't apply "or worse" to Israelis.

I wonder if he cars were valued at retail or wholesale when
calculating how much they fulfilled the compensation requirement
imposed on Germany.
--

Meir

[Yisroel Markov]

On Fri, 15 Jun 2012 02:07:59 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>

said:

>On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 22:21:07 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
><ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 22:58:11 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>
>>said:
>>
>>>On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 20:53:55 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
>>><ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:00:14 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>
>>>>said:
>>>>
>>>>>http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/01/world/europe/klaas-faber-war-criminal-from-the-netherlands-dies-at-90.html
>>>>
>>>>[snip]
>>>>
>>>>>One more reason I don't buy German cars, etc. I think any Jew who
>>>>>does is s fool, or worse.
>>>>
>>>>"A fool or worse" - not "holding a differing opinion of corporate
>>>>culpability"?
>>>
>>>No.
>>
>>Well, that's positively right-winged of you!
>
>I'm a moderate.

I see that my point has gone "whoosh!" Oh well.

>Specifically, I'm centered around moderate
>liberalness. Many liberal positions are too liberal for me, and many
>conservative positions are far too conservative for me. Although
>unlike the steriotype, I seem to be getting more liberal wth age,
>because I find the conservative positions these days to be incorrect
>and based on mistakes (or worse).

And there you go again.

> . A couple decades ago or so, their
>positions on the then-current big issues were correct, though
>impractical. There are a lot of posts of yours in reply to mine that
>I should have replied to. Maybe I'll have time some time.

[nod] One does need more time to write a short vs. a long response.

[lee]

On Jun 16, 12:22 am, mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Jun 2012 16:12:36 +0000 (UTC), Herman Rubin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <hru...@skew.stat.purdue.edu> wrote:

> >On 2012-06-14, Yisroel Markov <ey.mar...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
> >> On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 22:58:11 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>
> >> said:
>
> >>>On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 20:53:55 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
> >>><ey.mar...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>On Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:00:14 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>
> >>>>said:
>

> >>>>>http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/01/world/europe/klaas-faber-war-crimin...

>
> >>>>[snip]
>
> >>>>>One more reason I don't buy German cars, etc.     I think any Jew who
> >>>>>does is s fool, or worse.
>
> >>>>"A fool or worse" - not "holding a differing opinion of corporate
> >>>>culpability"?
>
> >>>No.
>
> >> Well, that's positively right-winged of you!
>
> > [snip]
>
> >To counter this, consider my own experience.  In the early 1960s,
> >we considered buying a Volkswagen.  Having somewhat similar
> >misgivings, we consulted Professor Rokeach, who was Israeli.
> >He stated that most of the cars in Israel were Volksvagens,
> >provided by Germany as compensation.
>
> Yes, they probably foresaw the result of paying compensatiion by means
> of cars, and if so, it was clever of them.  .  It got Israelis used to
> the idea of german cars, so they were willing to get them even when
> there was no more compensation and  they had to pay.    That's why I
> don't apply "or worse" to Israelis.
>
> I wonder if he cars were valued at retail or wholesale when
> calculating how much they fulfilled the compensation requirement
> imposed on Germany.
> --
>
> Meir

Didn't Israel initially buy its submarines from Germany too

[Henry Goodman]

"mm" <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:hgent79ng37ho47dl...@4ax.com...

As far as I remember, it was over 50 years ago, Germany agreed to a total
sum of money which had to be spent on German products, not necessarily cars.

--
Henry Goodman
henry dot goodman at virgin dot net

[mm]

On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 13:13:16 +0000 (UTC), lee <scho...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I don't know, but that would be different from buying cars at full
price. AIUI, there aren't nearly as many places to buy submarines as
there are to buy cars, and the different brands of submarines might
well be a lot different from each other, unlike cars which are pretty
much all the same. .

--

Meir