Cell phones at the seder

[cindys]

This year, at my seder, during the shulchan orech portion, two of my
guests decided it would be a good time to take out their cell phones
and start playing with them and showing the other guests pictures and
songs on their cell phones. The music coming from the one woman's cell
phone was so loud, it was disrupting my conversation with somebody
else who subsequently showed me a photo of one his friends on his cell
phone and asked if I knew the guy? I was quite stunned by this entire
display, but I didn't want to ruin the atmosphere of the seder by
rebuking two of the guests (although I fear they had already destroyed
the atmosphere with their cell phones). I final said "not on shabbos"
when the one woman asked me for a pencil and paper so that she could
write down the other woman's phone number (why didn't she just record
it on her cellphone?). She was clearly none to happy about my response
and said "Well..okay. But then you have to phone me next week with so-
and-so's phone number."

In the future, I am obviously going to have ask my guests from the
outset to please turn off their cell phones. Aside from the fact that
this was shabbos/yom tov, I think the whole thing was incredibly rude.
Unbelievable.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[JJ]

"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:d507c91f-e50d-4467...@x17g2000vba.googlegroups.com...

Cindy, you have written in the past that some of your guests left right
after the meal; now we hear of cellphones at the seder, which is, as you
say, not only disrespectful of the holiday but downright rude to the hosts.

In our small family seder, we invited my in-laws. Now, they know we are
secular, and so are they. We barely read the hagaddah anyway. So in my case,
no offense would be taken if someone showed someone else a photo on a
cellphone, or wrote down a phone number.

But in your case, don't your guests know anything about the household they
are invited to? When we held seders as they should be held (yes, we used to
read the hagaddah from beginning all the way to the end) no one would have
dared take out a cellphone unless it was an emergency. Don't your guests
realize that you are trying to run a halachic seder and that you run a
kosher home in which shabbat is observed? Your guests seem to be people who
don't just not care, they seem to not KNOW the basics of any kind of
observance. I am not criticizing you, mind you, but I don't think very
highly of your guests.

Maybe in the future some instruction at the beginning is in order: explain
to them what a seder is (my father did that when we had non-Jewish guests or
Jewish guests who REALLY didn't know anything) and that running a seder
requires some adherence to rules, such as no writing, no cellphones, and so
forth.

Just my 2 cents. It hurts to know that a host/ess went to all that trouble
just to be aggravated by unthinking guests.

Jay

[DORIS LADAN]

OH CINDY - I AM SORRY YOUR GUESTS WERE SO RUDE -- I DO NOT HAVE YOUR
TOLERENCE -
-
I DO NOT TOLERATE CELL PHONES AT MY TABLE FORNORMAL MEALS -- AND DO NOT
ANSWER THE PHONE IF IT RINGS WHILE WE ARE EATING ---
-
I HOPE NOTHIN ELSE HAPPENED TO DISTRESS YOU --AQND THE REST OF YOUR
PESACH WAS GOOD --
-
BE WELL ... DVORA

[Yussel]

It was incredibly rude under any circumstances. I was at two large seders and it didn't happen at all. The alternative is pick your guests better, I guess.

j

[topazgalaxy]

I agree with JJ. Perhaps the guests should be told before they
are even invited that these are the rules in your house for your
seder.
Cell phones at a halachic seder?? I am very surprised your guests
behaved this way.
Shabbat should be a time to really unplug from all this electronic
'stuff' that we have anyway.
People are forgetting how to communicate with each other with all
this e mail, texting, etc etc.

Sounds like your guests were enslaved to their modern media, and not
ready to be truly free.

[Gary]

For why, such people you invite?

[Henry Goodman]

approve triad

[Shelly]

My 2 cents is this. If you are invited to someone's house for dinner,
it is downright rude to start playing with your cellphone -- even if the
meal has no significance. In my mind, if I forget to turn off my
cellphone and it rings during dinner at someone, I say "We are having
dinner now. I'll call you later" and hang up.

--
Shelly

[Alex Fisher]

I agree with you Cindy. I'd probably want to phrase it a little more
strongly though. They wouldn't do it in a business meeting, how much
less should it occur at a Seder?

I've never attended a Seder, although I'd like to, next year perhaps.
But I have attended services at the synagogue on Shabbat. While I do
have my phone (we call them "mobiles" in Australia), I turn it right off
when I'm still 100 yards away, and it doesn't get turned on again until
I'm out of sight.

There is really nothing to prohibit me (I'm not a Jew), but
consideration for others (and I do believe in the sanctity of Shabbat)
says that it should be turned off, and concealed as well.

--
Alex

[Henry Goodman]

"Alex Fisher" <peter....@uqconnect.edu.au> wrote in message
news:jmfr6l$s07$1...@dont-email.me...

Most shuls round here have notices asking people to turn off their mobiles
or at least put them on silent; we are of course talking about weekday
minyanim. One shul demands that if a mobile goes off during davening the
owner must pay £30 to the gemach fund (happened to me once and I paid).

--
Henry Goodman
henry dot goodman at virgin dot net

[cindys]

On Apr 15, 2:45 pm, "JJ" <dmr1...@gmail.com> wrote:

snip

>
> Cindy, you have written in the past that some of your guests left right
> after the meal;

As I said, I can't uninvite my mother, and when she leaves, everybody
else takes that as a cue that it's time for them to leave as well
(even though I encourage them to stay). At least this time she didn't
make any loud declarations that my guests clearly weren't interested
in having a seder (which translates to *she* isn't interested in
having a seder, so by extension, we should dispense with it and just
get to the meal). But at least I can say that she wasn't one of the
people playing with a cell phone.

snip

>Don't your guests
> realize that you are trying to run a halachic seder and that you run a
> kosher home in which shabbat is observed?

Apparently not. Which is rather surprising considering that the guy
who was using his cellphone told me that he is a member of the MO shul
down the street and goes to the shabbos services there on a regular
basis.

>Your guests seem to be people who
> don't just not care, they seem to not KNOW the basics of any kind of
> observance. I am not criticizing you, mind you, but I don't think very
> highly of your guests.

I agree, but at least I can say there were 11 other people who were
NOT using cellphones. :-)

>
> Maybe in the future some instruction at the beginning is in order: explain
> to them what a seder is (my father did that when we had non-Jewish guests or
> Jewish guests who REALLY didn't know anything) and that running a seder
> requires some adherence to rules, such as no writing, no cellphones, and so
> forth.

For sure. Next time, I will ask them to please turn off the cellphones
when they come in because in our family, we don't use electronics on
shabbos.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[JJ]

"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message

news:8b90d30e-758e-4f3f...@m31g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...

On Apr 15, 2:45 pm, "JJ" <dmr1...@gmail.com> wrote:

snip
>
> Cindy, you have written in the past that some of your guests left right
> after the meal;

As I said, I can't uninvite my mother, and when she leaves, everybody
else takes that as a cue that it's time for them to leave as well
(even though I encourage them to stay). At least this time she didn't
make any loud declarations that my guests clearly weren't interested
in having a seder (which translates to *she* isn't interested in
having a seder, so by extension, we should dispense with it and just
get to the meal). But at least I can say that she wasn't one of the
people playing with a cell phone.

snip

>Don't your guests
> realize that you are trying to run a halachic seder and that you run a
> kosher home in which shabbat is observed?

Apparently not. Which is rather surprising considering that the guy
who was using his cellphone told me that he is a member of the MO shul
down the street and goes to the shabbos services there on a regular
basis.

********************************************************************

Must be one of those new VERY modern O shuls... I wonder if he shows his
photos to the guy next to him during the boring parts of the sermon...
:-)

Jay

[cindys]

----
The reason I picked these particular guests was that if I hadn't
invited them, they would have been alone on Pesach. The one woman may
not have known any better, but the man claimed that he was a member of
the MO shul down the street from me. HE should have known better.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[mm]

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 22:15:54 +0000 (UTC), topazgalaxy
<topaz...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>Sounds like your guests were enslaved to their modern media, and not
>ready to be truly free.

I guess you mean that it sounds like a Passover theme.
--

Meir

[mos...@mm.huji.ac.il]

cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:

> On Apr 15, 2:45=A0pm, "JJ" <dmr1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> snip
>>
>> Cindy, you have written in the past that some of your guests left right
>> after the meal;
>
> As I said, I can't uninvite my mother,

Don't you have a sister? Why can't she invite her?

> and when she leaves, everybody else takes that as a cue that it's
> time for them to leave as well (even though I encourage them to
> stay).

That _is_ a difficult situation.

> At least this time she didn't make any loud declarations that my
> guests clearly weren't interested in having a seder (which
> translates to *she* isn't interested in having a seder,

So why does she come? She needs the meal?

> so by extension, we should dispense with it and just get to the
> meal). But at least I can say that she wasn't one of the people
> playing with a cell phone.

Thank G-d for small miracles. :-)

> snip
>
>> Don't your guests realize that you are trying to run a halachic
>> seder and that you run a kosher home in which shabbat is observed?
>
> Apparently not. Which is rather surprising considering that the guy
> who was using his cellphone told me that he is a member of the MO
> shul down the street and goes to the shabbos services there on a
> regular basis.

That's not as surprising as it should be. I think it was Joel who
posted an article about how _many_ (some?) MO teenagers have no
problem texting on Shabbos! G-d forbid. Sometimes to the person on
the other side of the table!

--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University

[mm]

On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 20:04:18 +0000 (UTC), cindys
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:

>On Apr 15, 2:45 pm, "JJ" <dmr1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>snip
>>
>> Cindy, you have written in the past that some of your guests left right
>> after the meal;
>
>As I said, I can't uninvite my mother, and when she leaves, everybody
>else takes that as a cue that it's time for them to leave as well
>(even though I encourage them to stay). At least this time she didn't
>make any loud declarations that my guests clearly weren't interested
>in having a seder (which translates to *she* isn't interested in
>having a seder, so by extension, we should dispense with it and just
>get to the meal). But at least I can say that she wasn't one of the
>people playing with a cell phone.

Wow, you took a lot of wind out of my sails with the second half of
this paragraph. I was going to suggest that when she leaves she make
a decalaration that everyone hears that she hates to leave early, and
she hopes no one else will, that she'll feel bad if anyone leaves
early because she does, but she *HAS* to. Left unsaid why she has
to.

But if this is the first year she didn't say the other guests weren't
intrestied in a long seder, it might be hard to get her to go farther
than that. Still, I think I'd try next year.,

First things first, I think I'd tell her soon how happy you were
that she didn't say that part she didn't say, Positive feedback,
very important.

And I'd remind her next tyear.


BTW, I tell people who havent' been to a traditional seder before
that I eat^^ a full meal around 5 or 6 o'clock (daylight time) so I
don't get too hungrry before the seder meal** I've been doing this
for 30 years and it works well. ^^I don't tell people what they
should do, just what I do.

When people are hungry, they want to eat. When I'm not hungry, I'm in
no hurrry.



**BTW, I want to again tell you all about the child custody agreement
a soman told me about. It gave the rules for one of the firsrt two
nights of Pesach, and said that the child would go to one parents home
to attend the "satyr dinner".



As to the guests who left early, when I invite them the next time, I
think I'd tell them that I really want them to stay until the end.,
that my mother has a special reason she has to leave early

If they were invited to a secular new year's party, wouldn't they
expect to be there until 12:30 at least.


I had an experience with a R woman married to an O man. They were
gracious enoughj to invite me, and my mother too iirc, to their seder,
and she wanted me to take a picture of some of them. I said no,
twice, without elaboration, but the 3rd time, it seemed acceptable to
say, "It's Shabbes". She stopped after that, with me and maybe with
the pictures. Of course merely t hat it was Yonfit was enough
reason not to take photos, but I too for some reason gave Shabbes as
the reason. The hostess didn't show any annoyance, iirc. She
want s to cooperate with her husband. It may just not have occurred
to her that it was Yontif, and Shabbes.


As to the cellphones, I don't understand why they (more than one?)
were playing music. Was it something they wrote, or sang? Or their
kid or parent or sibling did? Otherwise, who does that even when it's
not Yontif?

If the others were just showing pictures, while you and I think it's
bad to run electric devices on Yontif, they probably have no idea and
think it's the same as showing real photographs. Maybe you could
suggest next year that people bring real photographs. You could say
that using the electric devices bothers some of the people at the
table. You don't have to name names. In fact it might be improper to
name names. And I'll bet it bothers your older son, and maybe also
your younger son, because he knows how you feel, and your husband to.


If thsee people are dloing things that they have no idea are wrong, I
think you have to tell them they are wrong, before the next
invitation, at least in your house on Shabbes and Yontif, or stop
stewing about them. An arguement could be made that if there a
(good?) chance they woudl improvem you must tell them at the best
possible time. How does it go. "You shall not bear sin because of
your neighbor, you shall surely rebuke him." If this doesn't apply
here, either don't invite them again or stop stewing about it.

As to your mother, it is to be hoped that you can stop stewing about
her too.

>snip
>
>>Don't your guests
>> realize that you are trying to run a halachic seder and that you run a
>> kosher home in which shabbat is observed?
>
>Apparently not. Which is rather surprising considering that the guy
>who was using his cellphone told me that he is a member of the MO shul
>down the street and goes to the shabbos services there on a regular
>basis.

As to the guy from the MO congregation, it's no secret that some
members of O caongregations are not very observant. Many people
belong where their parents belonged**, or lots of other reasons, and
some make a distinciton between their home and the shul. Maybe it's a
compliment to you that he feels as comfortable in your home as he
feels in his own. But he migtht be the easiest to correct, if you
can just get him to think of your house as more like a shul than like
his house.

**When my shul was looking to buy another building and move, we had
memembership meetiings on occasion to discuss the plans. One guy
said he wanted the needs of "the non-shomer Shabbes members to be
considered too.". ( I didn't know him well enough to ask what he
meant by that, but since he drove to shul, I woudl think any location
would have been equallly okay with him.) So I couldn't guess what
his point was, and more importantly, I just couldn't imagine anyone
asking such a question at a metting in an O shul. He was it seems
totally comfortable in his level of non-observance.

>>Your guests seem to be people who
>> don't just not care, they seem to not KNOW the basics of any kind of
>> observance. I am not criticizing you, mind you, but I don't think very
>> highly of your guests.
>
>I agree, but at least I can say there were 11 other people who were
>NOT using cellphones. :-)

That's good!.

>> Maybe in the future some instruction at the beginning is in order: explain
>> to them what a seder is (my father did that when we had non-Jewish guests or
>> Jewish guests who REALLY didn't know anything) and that running a seder
>> requires some adherence to rules, such as no writing, no cellphones, and so
>> forth.

I think some of this stuff has to be said at the time of invitation,
becasue t hey might rather go elsewhere than give up theiir phone
usage. I doubt there are surveys on seders and cellphones but I've
seen t hem for other things and it's almost as bad as heroin.

>For sure. Next time, I will ask them to please turn off the cellphones
>when they come in because in our family, we don't use electronics on
>shabbos.
>Best regards,
>---Cindy S.
>
>
>

--

Meir

[Steve Goldfarb]

In <jmfiij$g1s$1...@dont-email.me> Shelly <shel...@thevillages.net> writes:

>My 2 cents is this. If you are invited to someone's house for dinner,
>it is downright rude to start playing with your cellphone -- even if the
>meal has no significance. In my mind, if I forget to turn off my
>cellphone and it rings during dinner at someone, I say "We are having
>dinner now. I'll call you later" and hang up.

Well, just to be clear, Cindy wasn't talking about people taking calls,
she's talking about people using their cell phones to share photos and
such with each other. If this were just a dinner party, say, in which the
guests perhaps hadn't seen each other in a long time, would it be rude for
them to pull out their wallets and show off photos of their kids? I don't
think so - that's all they were doing. I don't see anything wrong with
sharing family photos with your friends and distant relatives (or whoever)
at a dinner - it's the fact that it's a Yom Tov that makes the difference
here, to me.

Disruptive music, OTOH, is a different thing.

--s
--

[cindys]

On Apr 17, 9:55 am, "Steve Goldfarb" <s...@panix.com> wrote:

It was mostly the disruptive music that was bothering me. The woman
was sharing some "cute music" with everyone. It was very loud and went
on for a while. I must have been cringing because the people I was
trying to talk to (and couldn't hear because of the noise), asked me
what was wrong?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[Patty]

On Sunday, April 15, 2012 2:25:57 PM UTC-4, cindys wrote:

Now you know who the cell phone addicts are among your acquaintances. Also who are the rudest people you know. The sad part is that it's not unbelievable. Ask anybody who has been to a live theater performance and had a performer stop the performance in the middle and tell some rudesby to turn off their phone.

Don't tell them to turn them off. Tell them not to bring them at all. If they have a problem with that, tell them to see a psychologist. Addictive behavior is addictive behavior and somebody like that needs help. If they say what if something goes wrong with the car and I need to call 911, the answer is it's yom tov, you're not supposed to drive anyway. (of course if you know they live beyond walking distance, you're contributing to the problem by inviting them)
If they say what if something happens at your house the answer is CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG but you have the responsibility to use your phone if it's a life-threatening situation.

[Steve Goldfarb]

In <19140b86-5a44-4b15...@dc2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com> cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:

>It was mostly the disruptive music that was bothering me. The woman
>was sharing some "cute music" with everyone. It was very loud and went
>on for a while. I must have been cringing because the people I was
>trying to talk to (and couldn't hear because of the noise), asked me
>what was wrong?

Sure - I think playing music would be rude in pretty much any such
circumstances, yom tov or no.

--s
--

[cindys]

On Apr 17, 5:51 am, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:

> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
> > On Apr 15, 2:45=A0pm, "JJ" <dmr1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > snip
>
> >> Cindy, you have written in the past that some of your guests left right
> >> after the meal;
>
> > As I said, I can't uninvite my mother,
>
> Don't you have a sister? Why can't she invite her?

She lives in another state.

>
> > and when she leaves, everybody else takes that as a cue that it's
> > time for them to leave as well (even though I encourage them to
> > stay).
>
> That _is_ a difficult situation.
>
> > At least this time she didn't make any loud declarations that my
> > guests clearly weren't interested in having a seder (which
> > translates to *she* isn't interested in having a seder,
>
> So why does she come? She needs the meal?

I was once reading somewhere that out of all the Jewish holidays,
there is something about Passover that is so compelling, that no
matter how secular someone is, no matter how many other Jewish
holidays/customs/traditions a Jew may ignore, Passover is the Jewish
holiday that is the most universally recognized and celebrated. To
some people, a "seder" just means a family get together where
everybody is eating matzah.

And there are also other issues there. I have never been able to
figure out what is her animosity toward Judaism and any type of Jewish
observance beyond the superficial. I don't think I'll ever know. But
it really ticked her off that I refused her offer to bring some (non
KLP) pickles to the seder. She argued that there was nothing wrong
with them, they they were OU certified, and that the only difference
between these pickles and the KLP pickles was that some rabbi was
getting "paid off" to put a sticker on the jar. This is pretty much
the same refrain I have heard my entire life.

With respect to that, I will say that 40 or 50 years ago, it was
commonplace for a supermarket to be sold a roll of stickers that said
"Kosher for Passover" to stick on certain products that were KLP all
year round. Needless to say, there were obviously a lot of flaws in
that system, and that's why we don't see KLP stickers on products
anymore. The KLP needs to be part of the original label as it comes
from the factory. Also, I have found out from talking to other
relatives of past generations, that there used to be a lot more
skirting of the rules back then than there is now.

For example, my one relative reminisced for me that when he was a kid,
there was a local kosher deli that sold a certain brand of hotdogs (a
brand no longer in existence). The hotdog company's rule was that any
store that sold their hotdogs had to be shomer shabbos, and inspectors
from the company would periodically come to town to ensure
compliance.

The deli was open for business on shabbos, but what they would do is
pull down the shades and lock the front door to give the appearance
that they were closed, and customers would enter from the back. This
relative is a reliable source, so I believe it was true, but I don't
think those kinds of shenanigans go on so much anymore. For one thing,
at least where I live, the community would never tolerate that.

Back then, it sounds like there was community complicity to outwit the
hotdog company. Nowadays, the deli would be under local rabbinical
supervision. If the shop sold only packaged products that didn't
require direct supervision at store level, and the shop were open on
shabbos while simultaneously assuring the hotdog company that they
were closed, I can guarantee you that members of the local Jewish
community would phone the hotdog company and report that the deli was
open on shabbos.

Amongst other things, there has been a change in the last 50 or 60
years in the way a lot of mainstream Jews relate to being Jewish. I
know that sentence is impossible to parse. Back in the 1930s and
1940s, for example, while there were some American Jews who were quite
observant (mostly in New York City), a lot of others who lived "out of
town" had an almost adversarial relationship with it. Many Jews of
that generation were trying desperately to assimilate, to escape the
old country mentality of their parents' generation. And a big part of
that for some people was making a point of rebelling against Jewish
observance.

>
> > so by extension, we should dispense with it and just get to the
> > meal). But at least I can say that she wasn't one of the people
> > playing with a cell phone.
>
> Thank G-d for small miracles. :-)

If she had been playing with her cell phone, to her, I would have said
something. I think part of the reason I felt uncomfortable saying
anything to these other people is that I didn't know them very well.

>
> > snip
>
> >> Don't your guests realize that you are trying to run a halachic
> >> seder and that you run a kosher home in which shabbat is observed?
>
> > Apparently not. Which is rather surprising considering that the guy
> > who was using his cellphone told me that he is a member of the MO
> > shul down the street and goes to the shabbos services there on a
> > regular basis.
>
> That's not as surprising as it should be. I think it was Joel who
> posted an article about how _many_ (some?) MO teenagers have no
> problem texting on Shabbos!

Yup. Except the people in question here were middle-aged.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[cindys]

On Apr 17, 10:57 am, cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:

snip

>
> Amongst other things, there has been a change in the last 50 or 60
> years in the way a lot of mainstream Jews relate to being Jewish. I
> know that sentence is impossible to parse. Back in the 1930s and
> 1940s, for example, while there were some American Jews who were quite
> observant (mostly in New York City), a lot of others who lived "out of
> town" had an almost adversarial relationship with it. Many Jews of
> that generation were trying desperately to assimilate, to escape the
> old country mentality of their parents' generation. And a big part of
> that for some people was making a point of rebelling against Jewish
> observance.

----
I actually do know the reason for the change, as I've noted multiple
times in the past. It was the Holocaust. The great Jewish centers of
Eastern Europe were decimated and Israel was established, and the USA
and Israel replaced Eastern Europe as the great centers for Jewish
learning. I suspect "the shift to the right" that we associate with
the past 20+ years actually began in the late 1940s and early 1950s.
Had the Holocaust not happened, I think 2012 Jewish life in the USA
would be significantly more secular than it is.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[Shelly]

On 4/17/2012 10:57 AM, cindys wrote:
> I was once reading somewhere that out of all the Jewish holidays,
> there is something about Passover that is so compelling, that no
> matter how secular someone is, no matter how many other Jewish
> holidays/customs/traditions a Jew may ignore, Passover is the Jewish
> holiday that is the most universally recognized and celebrated.

I agree. I had two inviolate rules all my life. One, I would never
work on the high holidays and, two, I would never be out of town for
work, or work on the seder nights. The celebration of freedom was too
important to me.

--
Shelly

[W. Baker]

cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:

It was also the arrival in the US of the remnants of those Orthodox
comunities, particularly those from Hungary, the last of the Eastern
european countries to begin transpts tothe camps so a higher % of them
survived as those who were assigned to work rather thn the showers were
incarirted for a shorter time. As many were osremely devout adn observant
they hd an enormous impact on the American Orthodax community, which had
been quite defensive before this influx, moving it far to the right.

I have had aan odd experience with a fellow who could not accept that
grape juice was not regarded as a substitute for wine in the 30's and 40's
and did not require the special care it now does. Everybody drank Welchs
lall year round. This fellow I am tlking abouat essentialy thought I was
ling because "no Rabbi would acept such a position."

Wendy

[mm]

On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 14:57:00 +0000 (UTC), cindys
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:

>And there are also other issues there. I have never been able to
>figure out what is her animosity toward Judaism and any type of Jewish
>observance beyond the superficial. I don't think I'll ever know. But
>it really ticked her off that I refused her offer to bring some (non
>KLP) pickles to the seder. She argued that there was nothing wrong
>with them, they they were OU certified, and that the only difference
>between these pickles and the KLP pickles was that some rabbi was
>getting "paid off" to put a sticker on the jar.

I've heard that theory before. Outside of scjm. In fact I heard it
early on** and later too from others.

>This is pretty much
>the same refrain I have heard my entire life.

And WADR, I think you've absorbed some of it. Not about KLP, where
you're probably accurate, and not especially about being paid, but
other things.

>With respect to that, I will say that 40 or 50 years ago, it was
>commonplace for a supermarket to be sold a roll of stickers that said
>"Kosher for Passover" to stick on certain products that were KLP all
>year round.

That's the point my asterisks were going to point to. Sometime
after my grandfather stopped being a junk man, he owned a grocery
store. (I wish I knew now if he were able to buy it on his own, or
if he had to wait until his son married the boss's daughter. It
doesn't matter either way but I'm curious.)

And my mother said how I think it was the Stokely man, the guy who
delivered Stokely canned vergetables came, with his delivery of more
cans. And put the stickers that he brought on the cans that he
brought and those that were already there. I don't know if there
was any hashgacha (inspection) at the canning plant involved. But
recipes were a lot simpler in the 30's and 40's, and I suspect there
was nothing in the canned spinach for example but spinach and a little
salt. And that that was the same reciipe all year long, and for
every vegaegable they sold. And there were NO imports from Israel
then, so no need for ttthing. And there was litttle horizontal
integration in those days, mergers of unlike products, so I think the
vegetable companies canned vergetables and that was about it.

What about Pork and Beans? That was Heinz and at the time, and local
brands. I don't think they canned many other vegetables, and the
only vegetarian baked beans by them that I've ever seen were OU, at
least 50 years ago. .

Would people eat things from Heinz on Pesach if they sold other
vegetables? I only heard about Stokelys, which is a midwest brand
mostly.

So I ssspect all or most ofl the canned vergetables and furits food
with those stickers rreally were kosher l'Peasach, despite all the
flaws in the system. I don't know how significant it was that
before WWII, Jewis in Europe knew about some of the problems of being
a good Jew in the USA, and many still came. Of course being drafted
in the tsarr's army for 20 or 30 years is no good for being an
observant Jew either, plus all the other problems, t hough I'm not
sure everyone faced the draft.

The whole world is like this. It's only a few medical patients who
ever got the wrong treatment or drug, but because of a few problems,
now there is a whole system to stop this. I was sick last week and
every time I saw anyone, I had to repeat my birthdate, to make sure
they had the right person. They scanned the UPC on every piece of
hardware and every other thing they used on me. Had they done it the
old way, everything would have been fine 99% of the time. But people
don't want a 1% error wrt medicine, airplane safety, tornado safety,
the cash register, kashrus, or anything else.

> Needless to say, there were obviously a lot of flaws in
>that system, and that's why we don't see KLP stickers on products
>anymore. The KLP needs to be part of the original label as it comes
>from the factory. Also, I have found out from talking to other
>relatives of past generations, that there used to be a lot more
>skirting of the rules back then than there is now.
>
>For example, my one relative reminisced for me that when he was a kid,
>there was a local kosher deli that sold a certain brand of hotdogs (a
>brand no longer in existence). The hotdog company's rule was that any
>store that sold their hotdogs had to be shomer shabbos, and inspectors
>from the company would periodically come to town to ensure
>compliance.
>
>The deli was open for business on shabbos, but what they would do is
>pull down the shades and lock the front door to give the appearance
>that they were closed, and customers would enter from the back. This
>relative is a reliable source, so I believe it was true, but I don't

Good for the hotdog company, but of course what the grocer did did not
make the hotdogs treif. Customers who bought them other days faced no
problew. Other foods,I have to think about. Anything the could
slice would be a problem.

>think those kinds of shenanigans go on so much anymore. For one thing,
>at least where I live, the community would never tolerate that.

Well there was a butcher shop in Baltimore and someone found cartons
from treif chickens behnd the stop. The communtity didn't tolerate
it, and the store didn't last more than a week after that, if at all.
The store was not in a row of stores. It stood alone and one could
walk all the way around it in a minute.

Also some ice-cream store that opened Saturday night in the winter,
somehow someone noitced signs of actifvity during the day. I guess
the mashgiach inspected one Shabbes afternoon, and found them there,
they lost their hasgacha and they closed. IIRC the owners were Jews
but not Orhoodox and they probably had good intentions when the
started. There's a new kosher ice-cream store very close to the old
one now.
.
There's a Chinese-owned Chinese restaurant that closes for Shabbes
and Yontif.and all of Pesach. They build or someone builds for them
a sukkah during Sukkos, for the days they're open. He's been open
for a decade at least I'm sure he does everything he's supposed. to.
Owning a resrtaiurant and working 7 days a week is a hard job. The
owners are probably happy they're kosher.

>Back then, it sounds like there was community complicity to outwit the
>hotdog company. Nowadays, the deli would be under local rabbinical
>supervision. If the shop sold only packaged products that didn't
>require direct supervision at store level, and the shop were open on
>shabbos while simultaneously assuring the hotdog company that they
>were closed, I can guarantee you that members of the local Jewish
>community would phone the hotdog company and report that the deli was
>open on shabbos.
>
>Amongst other things, there has been a change in the last 50 or 60
>years in the way a lot of mainstream Jews relate to being Jewish. I
>know that sentence is impossible to parse. Back in the 1930s and
>1940s, for example, while there were some American Jews who were quite
>observant (mostly in New York City), a lot of others who lived "out of
>town" had an almost adversarial relationship with it. Many Jews of
>that generation were trying desperately to assimilate, to escape the
>old country mentality of their parents' generation. And a big part of
>that for some people was making a point of rebelling against Jewish
>observance.

My parents wern't rebelling. When they didn't do something, it was
because they were lazy, tired, or busy. Frankly, one or more of those
happened a lot. I don't know if that made it easier or harder for
me. I couldn't rebel against their rebellion, because they didn't
have any. I don't know about anyone else.

>>
>> > so by extension, we should dispense with it and just get to the
>> > meal). But at least I can say that she wasn't one of the people
>> > playing with a cell phone.
>>
>> Thank G-d for small miracles. :-)
>
>If she had been playing with her cell phone, to her, I would have said
>something. I think part of the reason I felt uncomfortable saying
>anything to these other people is that I didn't know them very well.
>
>>
>> > snip
>>
>> >> Don't your guests realize that you are trying to run a halachic
>> >> seder and that you run a kosher home in which shabbat is observed?
>>
>> > Apparently not. Which is rather surprising considering that the guy
>> > who was using his cellphone told me that he is a member of the MO
>> > shul down the street and goes to the shabbos services there on a
>> > regular basis.
>>
>> That's not as surprising as it should be. I think it was Joel who
>> posted an article about how _many_ (some?) MO teenagers have no
>> problem texting on Shabbos!
>
>Yup. Except the people in question here were middle-aged.
>Best regards,
>---Cindy S.
>
>
>

--

Meir

[cindys]

On Apr 17, 10:07 pm, mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 14:57:00 +0000 (UTC), cindys
>

> <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> >And there are also other issues there. I have never been able to
> >figure out what is her animosity toward Judaism and any type of Jewish
> >observance beyond the superficial. I don't think I'll ever know. But
> >it really ticked her off that I refused her offer to bring some (non
> >KLP) pickles to the seder. She argued that there was nothing wrong
> >with them, they they were OU certified, and that the only difference
> >between these pickles and the KLP pickles was that some rabbi was
> >getting "paid off" to put a sticker on the jar.
>
> I've heard that theory before.  Outside of scjm.  In fact I heard it
> early on** and later too from others.
>
> >This is pretty much
> >the same refrain I have heard my entire life.
>
> And WADR, I think you've absorbed some of it.   Not about KLP, where
> you're probably accurate, and not especially about being paid, but
> other things.

----
I think not. My current opinions of the halachic process and how
things evolve halachically and the extent of rabbinical control over
communities and this incessant march to the right is something brand
new and based on my own independent observations. My attitudes, good,
bad, or otherwise have absolutely nothing at all to do with anything I
may have "absorbed" from my parents. There were (and continue to be)
countless instances where I defended the rabbis in the face of my
parents' unfounded criticisms, mostly based on their lack of
understanding of how things work in the world of halachic Judaism. I
have participated in the frum world, and (unlike my parents), I do not
suffer from a lack of understanding of how things work in that milieu.
If you don't like my so-called "cynicism," that's up to you, but I can
assure you it is mine and mine alone, and does not derive from any
kind of "absorbed' attitudes from my parents, subtle or otherwise.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[mm]

On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 22:08:24 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker"
<wba...@panix.com> wrote:

>
>
>It was also the arrival in the US of the remnants of those Orthodox
>comunities, particularly those from Hungary, the last of the Eastern
>european countries to begin transpts tothe camps so a higher % of them
>survived as those who were assigned to work rather thn the showers were
>incarirted for a shorter time. As many were osremely devout adn observant
>they hd an enormous impact on the American Orthodax community, which had
>been quite defensive before this influx, moving it far to the right.
>
>I have had aan odd experience with a fellow who could not accept that
>grape juice was not regarded as a substitute for wine in the 30's and 40's
>and did not require the special care it now does.

I think I'm the opposite of this, but I'm not sure. Even though I
hadn't thought of it, I had no trouble accepting that grape juice had
the same rules for kashus that wine did. Grape soda pop (unless
there is some way not to use real** grapes, but I don't think they do
that.) And grape jelly etc, right?

> Everybody drank Welchs
>lall year round. This fellow I am tlking abouat essentialy thought I was
>ling because "no Rabbi would acept such a position."

The opposite of your fellow, I think, what amazed me the first time I
saw it , myabe 20 or 30 years ago was the use of grape juice for
kiddiush. I'm pretty sure I had wine from the time I could drink
out of a glass, less than a year? I can't remember being so young I
didn't join in kiddush, or the first time I did join in.

It never occurred to me that one could use grape juice, and I guess
you're saying that in the 30's and 40's no one did. I was born in
'47 in a small city where we didn't learn what was happening in the
big city for maybe decades, and we wouldn't have changed our Jewish
habits even if we knew.

>Wendy

I bought some marachino cherries today and the label said
[Caution?]. Made with real cherries, may contain pits. And it was
OU and used some sort of vegetable dye. Next to it were bottles of
bing and marachino cherries that had no hashgacha, but they too said
prominently, Made without animal dye.
--

Meir

[lee]

On Apr 15, 7:25 pm, cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> This year, at my seder, during the shulchan orech portion, two of my
> guests decided it would be a good time to take out their cell phones
> and start playing with them and showing the other guests pictures and
> songs on their cell phones. The music coming from the one woman's cell
> phone was so loud, it was disrupting my conversation with somebody
> else who subsequently showed me a photo of one his friends on his cell
> phone and asked if I knew the guy? I was quite stunned by this entire
> display, but I didn't want to ruin the atmosphere of the seder by
> rebuking two of the guests (although I fear they had already destroyed
> the atmosphere with their cell phones). I final said "not on shabbos"
> when the one woman asked me for a pencil and paper so that she could
> write down the other woman's phone number (why didn't she just record
> it on her cellphone?). She was clearly none to happy about my response
> and said "Well..okay. But then you have to phone me next week with so-
> and-so's phone number."
>
> In the future, I am obviously going to have ask my guests from the
> outset to please turn off their cell phones. Aside from the fact that
> this was shabbos/yom tov, I think the whole thing was incredibly rude.
> Unbelievable.

> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.

It kinda irks me when I'm out at the pub and half the people there are
playing with their smart phones. At a ceder or in shull, thats pretty
rude, unless its Elija phoning to say 'hes sorry about all the other
times but promising to be here tonight'. My phone once went off during
a company wide meeting, but that was kinda funny.

[mm]

Your whole paragraph sounds very reasonable and it all makes the point
you are making. And maybe it doesn't matter anyway if your parents
had anything to do with your currrent opinions.

Nonetheless, people are so complicated, our minds are so complicated,
and we spend so many thousands of hours with our parents, learning so
many things for the first, second and nth time, that despite all your
good arguments, even despite your defense of rabbis to your parents.
I'm not convinced.

I was sorry t hat this paragraph of mine came second in my post, but I
really hate to re-order posts. I've only done it two or three times,
and it didnt' seem to work here.

--

Meir

[mos...@mm.huji.ac.il]

cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:

> On Apr 17, 5:51=A0am, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>>
>> > As I said, I can't uninvite my mother,
>>
>> Don't you have a sister? Why can't she invite her?
>
> She lives in another state.

And your mother never goes there to visit her?

>> So why does she come? She needs the meal?
>
> I was once reading somewhere that out of all the Jewish holidays,
> there is something about Passover that is so compelling, that no
> matter how secular someone is, no matter how many other Jewish
> holidays/customs/traditions a Jew may ignore, Passover is the Jewish
> holiday that is the most universally recognized and celebrated. To
> some people, a "seder" just means a family get together where
> everybody is eating matzah.

And there is a jar of horseradish on the table.

I know here in Israel _all_ the people I know, even the most secular,
have a seder. And for them it's easy to read the hagadah!

snip a bit of "memory lane" about Jewish "observance" in the 40's

[mos...@mm.huji.ac.il]

mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> writes:
> cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:

> had anything to do with your currrent opinions.=20

>
> Nonetheless, people are so complicated, our minds are so complicated,
> and we spend so many thousands of hours with our parents, learning so
> many things for the first, second and nth time, that despite all your
> good arguments, even despite your defense of rabbis to your parents.
> I'm not convinced.
>
> I was sorry t hat this paragraph of mine came second in my post, but I
> really hate to re-order posts. I've only done it two or three times,
> and it didnt' seem to work here.

Meir, this is the end of what you wtote in this post. If you
won't/can't snip the rest, at least put your .sig _here_ so we'll
know you finished what you want to say. Why make us go through
_FIFTEEN_ _SCREENS_ worth of old stuff???????

fifteen screens, SNIPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPED

[cindys]

> had anything to do with your current opinions.

>
> Nonetheless, people are so complicated, our minds are so complicated,
> and we spend so many thousands of hours with our parents, learning so
> many things for the first, second and nth time,  that despite all your
> good arguments, even despite your defense of rabbis to your parents.
> I'm not convinced.

-----
Here's the thing, Meir, my pet peeve is when somebody posts an opinion
that somebody else dislikes or is at odds with, and the other person
responds something like "You're only saying that because you've been
under the influence of other people. You're brainwashed. You can't
think for yourself. You left your brains at the door." It's
condescending and dismissive.

You don't have to like the opinions I express on a variety of topics,
but I can assure you that I independently formulate all my own
thoughts and ideas, which is precisely why I will never and can never
accept the mindset of the part of the Orthodox world that is
constantly phoning the rabbi and asking him what to do and going along
with what he tells them. I will never give somebody that kind of
control over my life. And part of the reason is, you will be happy to
know, because of my mother.

My mother is an overbearing and domineering woman. If I hadn't
developed the ability to think independently and rebel early in
childhood, I would have been completely swallowed up by her influence
by the time I was an adolescent. It continues to be a source of
frustration to her that she can't control me or convince me to buy
into her mindset. So, no, I don't think I am terribly influenced by
mother's ideas, especially not when it comes to religious issues and
judging other people.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

> ...
>
> read more »

[cindys]

On Apr 18, 4:44 am, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
> > On Apr 17, 5:51=A0am, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
> >> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>
> >> > As I said, I can't uninvite my mother,
>
> >> Don't you have a sister? Why can't she invite her?
>
> > She lives in another state.
>
> And your mother never goes there to visit her?

---
She has never been to visit her because of her fear of flying. And
she also won't take a bus or a train. And it's too far to drive. My
sister and her family do make an annual trip to visit my mother once/
year.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[Harry Weiss]

cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:

check with a Rabbi, but it may be better to ask them not to use the phones
rather than turn them off.



--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com

[Harry Weiss]

That was a double edged issue. The question is does grape juice have the
status of wine. If yes Welchs is not kosher and you can use grape juice
for kiddush.

If not it is kosher but cannot be used for Kiddush.

That shift came from non O groups who began the argument against O Jews
during prohbition who wanted to allow the production of kosher wine for
Kiddush. They started arguing that grape juice could be used. When that
was considered by O, the porhbitions of non Jewish grape juice arose.

[cindys]

On Apr 20, 1:52 pm, Harry Weiss <hjwe...@panix.com> wrote:

---
Okay. Thank you.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[mm]

Wouldn't this be a violation of "Do not muzzle the ox when you tread
out the grain".

Maybe not, but I can't quite imagine their phones vibrating or ringing
and their being able to control themselves. If Cindy asks them
beforehand to turn the phone off, it's their choice if they do it
before Yontif starts, or only just before they arrive, no?
--

Meir

[mm]

So these non-O Jews didn't want an exception for Kiddush wine? Even
though Catholics (and others?) , justifiably, got an exception for
their sacramental wine?

They started arguing that grape juice could be used. When that
>was considered by O, the porhbitions of non Jewish grape juice arose.

Very very intreresting. Does that mean that only since prohibition,
and maybe only in the USA, grape juice has been acceptable for
Kiddush? Because before that no one ever thought of using grape
juice?

That certainly makes it new and accounts for why I had never heard of
it.

Wine is still preferable?
--

Meir

[mm]

On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 04:58:37 +0000 (UTC), lee <scho...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>It kinda irks me when I'm out at the pub and half the people there are
>playing with their smart phones. At a ceder or in shull, thats pretty
>rude, unless its Elija phoning to say 'hes sorry about all the other
>times but promising to be here tonight'.

You joke, I think, but I wouldn't be too surprised if that happens.

> My phone once went off during
>a company wide meeting, but that was kinda funny.

There was a narrative with a music background, billed as a song, in
the US 20 or 30 years ago... The revolution will not be televised.
The revolution will not be sponsored by Pepsi. etc. etc. But it's
not true. If there were a revolution, it would be televisied and the
revolution wouldn't be sponsored by Pepsi but the broadcasts would be.

So I don't see any reason why Elija wouldn't have a cell phone and the
ability to make conference calls.
--

Meir

[Yisroel Markov]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 19:51:37 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>
said:

>On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 18:02:42 +0000 (UTC), Harry Weiss
><hjw...@panix.com> wrote:

[snip]

>>That was a double edged issue. The question is does grape juice have the
>>status of wine. If yes Welchs is not kosher and you can use grape juice
>>for kiddush.
>>
>>If not it is kosher but cannot be used for Kiddush.
>>
>>That shift came from non O groups who began the argument against O Jews
>>during prohbition who wanted to allow the production of kosher wine for
>>Kiddush.
>
>So these non-O Jews didn't want an exception for Kiddush wine? Even
>though Catholics (and others?) , justifiably, got an exception for
>their sacramental wine?
>
>They started arguing that grape juice could be used. When that
>>was considered by O, the porhbitions of non Jewish grape juice arose.
>
>Very very intreresting. Does that mean that only since prohibition,
>and maybe only in the USA, grape juice has been acceptable for
>Kiddush? Because before that no one ever thought of using grape
>juice?

Not that no one had ever thought of it (in the Gemara's discussion of
kiddush wine R' Yehuda states that when wine is not available, you
squeeze a cluster of grapes and use that), but it wasn't a hot topic.
Until pausterization was invented, no one was in the habit of drinking
fruit juices but the rich nobles, and they had fresh-squeezed,
something you can't do on Shabbat.

>That certainly makes it new and accounts for why I had never heard of
>it.
>
>Wine is still preferable?

AIUI, it is. R' Yehuda's statement (which the Mishne Tora codifies as
law) begins with "when wine is not available."
--
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand

[W. Baker]

mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
: On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 18:02:42 +0000 (UTC), Harry Weiss

I know that in the 1940's the O people I knew never would use grape juice
and used Welch's grape juce as a refreching drink. It seemed that the
grape juice issue came in or moved out of a small enclave after the War as
things began to get stricter.

Wendy

[W. Baker]

Yisroel Markov <ey.m...@munginame.com> wrote:
: On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 19:51:37 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>

: AIUI, it is. R' Yehuda's statement (which the Mishne Tora codifies as

: law) begins with "when wine is not available."
: --
: Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
: www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC
: --------------------------------------------------------------------
: "Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand

When I was young in NYC in the USA everyone I knew had fresh squeezed
orange juice (a small glass) every motning. It was part of making
breakfast. Sometmes peole would have canned grapefruit jusce for a
change, but never canned orange juice, as it really doesn't taste very
good. With teh growth of orange groves in Florida and California oranges
were quite plentiful in the US.

Wendy Baker

[Henry Goodman]

"W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:jmsml5$r0j$2...@reader1.panix.com...

I remember in the 1950s people who kept kosher in other respects didn't
worry about drinking non-Jewish wine. Kosher wine was for kiddush etc.
The London Beth Din kashrus authority used to put notices on the table at
simchas that "the kashrus authority accepts no responsibility for the
kashrus of wines and liqueurs at this function".

--
Henry Goodman
henry dot goodman at virgin dot net

[W. Baker]

Henry Goodman <henry....@virgin.net> wrote:
: "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote in message
: >
: > I know that in the 1940's the O people I knew never would use grape juice

: > and used Welch's grape juce as a refreching drink. It seemed that the
: > grape juice issue came in or moved out of a small enclave after the War as
: > things began to get stricter.
: >

: I remember in the 1950s people who kept kosher in other respects didn't
: worry about drinking non-Jewish wine. Kosher wine was for kiddush etc.
: The London Beth Din kashrus authority used to put notices on the table at
: simchas that "the kashrus authority accepts no responsibility for the
: kashrus of wines and liqueurs at this function".

: --
: Henry Goodman
: henry dot goodman at virgin dot net

I remember that too. As the only kind of kosher wie available was the
very sweet ones "sugar added," or "So think you can cut it with a knife,"
any other kind of wine that didn't overwhem one with swweetness was not
permitted, but many people drank it anyway. I remember that there ws a
Carmel wine we sometimes used for Seder in my family(I was still n older
kid:-) was called Adom Attik or something like that. It was less sweet,
but rather sharper and more sour than what we like to drink these days.
It was, as far as I know, he oly not syrupy wine available kosher in my
neighborhood.

Wendy Baker

[mm]

I certainly remember when the only kosher wines where I lived were
Manischevitz and Mogen David All the way thorugh till 1964 in
Indianapolis, and maybe through -70 in Chicago, but I didn't really
buy wine then. I was really tickled when I saw my first Israeli
chablis, etc. And I guess I'm even more amazed still when I see
kosher wines of all kinds from all over the world.

>
>Wendy Baker

--

Meir

[mm]

Okay. No more grape juice for me. I've had maybe a total of 6
glasses, mostly because it was a novelty, and sometimes I even like it
better, but enough is enough.
--

Meir

[mm]

Thanks, Wendy. I guess when I said I had no trouble accepting that
the rules for grape juice were the same as for wine, that's because I
firgured my mother didn't know or had been ignoring the rules for
grape juice, not that they had changed.

OTOH I'm not sure we ever drank grape juice, so maybe she did know. I
have a vague recollection of having it my a friend's house, and a
vague recollection that when I first bought some grape juice, Welch's
didn't seem at all familiar, personally, even though they advertised
on tv. Maybe with more time I'll recall more. .

>Wendy

--

Meir

[Henry Goodman]

"mm" <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:t1o6p7lbm86jp0j0m...@4ax.com...

The only time I made kiddush over grape-juice was when I had to spend
Shabbos in hospital (no alcohol allowed).
I was at a kiddush yesterday where there was one tray of whisky and several
trays of white grape-juice that looked very like whisky. We all had to tell
by smell which was "the real stuff". Some unfortunates accidentally tasted
the grape-juice and made a face. The whisky went very quickly and most of
the grape juice was left; I don't know why the good ladies who prepared the
kiddush bother to put it out every week.

[lee]

On Apr 20, 8:56 pm, mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 04:58:37 +0000 (UTC), lee <schotn...@gmail.com>

> wrote:
>
>
>
> >It kinda irks me when I'm out at the pub and half the people there are
> >playing with their smart phones. At a ceder or in shull, thats pretty
> >rude, unless its Elija phoning to say 'hes sorry about all the other
> >times but promising to be here tonight'.
>
> You joke, I think, but I wouldn't be too surprised if that happens.
>

Well imho he already came back once on May 14, 1948

> There was a narrative with a music background, billed as a song, in
> the US 20 or 30 years ago... The revolution will not be televised.
> The revolution will not be sponsored by Pepsi. etc. etc.     But it's
> not true. If there were a revolution, it would be televisied and the
> revolution wouldn't be sponsored by Pepsi but the broadcasts would be.
>

I remember that song, I wonder was it the same guy who did that nu,
nu, nineteen song ?
In the UK the media used tend not to report public disorder like
riots, in real time, to minimise copy cat riots and people joining in.
Not entirely sure what happened to that unofficial policy last summer
however!. & in those countries where you do get revolts or uprisings
the government usually black out coverage. However going back to last
summer in the UK. The revolution might not be televised, but it will
be on twitter & Blackberry messenger!

[cindys]

On Apr 22, 5:57 am, "Henry Goodman" <henry.good...@virgin.net> wrote:

snip

> The only time I made kiddush over grape-juice was when I had to spend
> Shabbos in hospital (no alcohol allowed).
> I was at a kiddush yesterday where there was one tray of whisky and several
> trays of white grape-juice that looked very like whisky. We all had to tell
> by smell which was "the real stuff". Some unfortunates accidentally tasted
> the grape-juice and made a face. The whisky went very quickly and most of
> the grape juice was left; I don't know why the good ladies who prepared the
> kiddush bother to put it out every week.

-----
And where I come from, lots of people go for the grape juice at the
kiddush. In some cases, they say they can't drink alcohol because
they're taking medication. In other cases, they're just carrying on
like the wine is poison, "Is that wine? Is that wine? Which tray is
wine? I'm asking because I don't want the wine!!!! Where's the grape
juice??" Whisky would never poured into cups and put on a tray. It
would all just go to waste. It is available on a side table for anyone
who wants it, and almost nobody does.

And if you will recall, I have complained more than once on this forum
about the family that refused to serve wine at all (even the wine we
brought) when we would go to their house for shabbos dinner or lunch.
It was always grape juice.

For Pesach, one of my guests (not one of the ones who brought a cell
phone) offered to bring the grape juice, and she brought a lot of it.
That the grape juice will flow at the seder is just assumed. Only
maybe half the people drank any wine at all and not a lot of it. For
13 people, I only went through about 2 (small) bottles of wine for the
entire seder. And when I was clearing the table, I poured a lot of
half filled cups of wine down the drain.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[lee]

I remember as a small boy, drinking a couple of glasses of wine at the
kaddish in shull, with kickles, & more than a few at the ceder. I dont
remember any special grape juice. But now I'm wondering how strong is/
was kosher wine ?

[W. Baker]

cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:

At the Sedurin I used to make and those I go to now, wine, and dry wine is
the most common. I only provided grape juice for childrne adn none of he
adults went for it. Partly, its sugar content is extremely high and it is
terrible for diabetics like me! Some people drink watered wine as the
evening proceeds ordon't finish each cup fully, except for the last one.
Just an incidental OT comment. The dry wine I drink heps keep my blood
sugar lower at the seder than no wine. I so, also try to eat carefully,
but not always perfectly:-)

Wendy Baker

[W. Baker]

mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
: On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 01:21:19 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker"

Yes! And isn't it wonderful:-)

[W. Baker]

mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
: On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 22:38:53 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker"

I don't know if grape juice was expensive or if my mother thought it less
hehalthy than other drinks, but it was only at home occasionlly and it was
always wtered a bit, as my mother felt it was too strong or to sweet or
too something without some water. We were not a big sugar eating family,
using none in our unsweetened cold cereals or fresh fuits and berries(ven
grapefruit) inthe case of myparents, in their coffe. The sweetness of teh
grape juice, which delighted us kids , may have been to much for my
mother. This, obviously had nothing to do with kashrut. Kids in the 40s
did not drink much juice except that statutory small glass at breakfast.
If we were thirsty we drank NYC tap water and tomato juice was a frequent
first course at dinner.

Wendy

[cindys]

On Apr 22, 11:14 am, "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote:

snip

>
> I don't know if grape juice was expensive or if my mother thought it less

> healthy than other drinks, but it was only at home occasionlly and it was

> always wtered a bit, as my mother felt it was too strong or to sweet or
> too something without some water.

Same here! And I agree that nobody ever questioned the kashrut of
Welch's grape juice (or any other kind of juice for that matter). The
only non-meat food items that were really questioned at all were
things like bread or crackers because they often contained beef fat or
lard, and I think it's because my kosher-observant grandmother ate
these things, so my mother was more careful. OTOH, Hostess cupcakes
and Oreos were a staple in my house. As a friend of mine quipped, "Do
you remember when we were children, all candy was "kosher?" Part of
the issue was that packaged foods did not have ingredient panels
printed on them. That came later, so what you didn't know couldn't
hurt you.

>We were not a big sugar eating family,
> using none in our unsweetened cold cereals or fresh fuits and berries(ven

> grapefruit) inthe case of myparents, in their coffee.

Well...we did put sugar our cereals and grapefruit, and my parents did
put sugar in their coffee.

>The sweetness of the

> grape juice, which delighted us kids , may have been to much for my
> mother.

My mother sometimes would buy chocolate milk but then dilute it with
white milk. She apparently thought the chocolate milk was too strong
or sugary.

>  This, obviously had nothing to do with kashrut.  Kids in the 40s
> did not drink much juice except that statutory small glass at breakfast.
> If we were thirsty we drank NYC tap water and tomato juice was a frequent
> first course at dinner.

Yes! Tomato juice as a first course at (shabbos) dinner. I had
forgotten all about that. We also sometimes had grapefruit juice as a
first course at (shabbos) dinner. When I was growing up, we mostly
drank diet soda and Kool-Aid (my mother bought the unsweetened
variety, and our family recipe was to add exactly 11 saccharin tablets
per pitcher. The bottle of saccharin tablets was kept in the
silverware drawer for easy access).

Thanks for the trip down memory lane.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[Shelly]

On 4/22/2012 10:34 AM, lee wrote:

> I remember as a small boy, drinking a couple of glasses of wine at the

> kaddish in shull, with kickles,& more than a few at the ceder. I dont

> remember any special grape juice. But now I'm wondering how strong is/
> was kosher wine ?

I think you meant kiddish, not kaddish.

--
Shelly

[Gary]

White whisky???

[cindys]

----
I also think he meant kichel, not kickles (rhymes with pickles), and
seder, not ceder (isn't that a type of tree :-) ?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[Shelly]

No, cedar is a type of tree. :-)

--
Shelly

[Giorgies E Kepipesiom]

On Apr 22, 12:05 pm, Gary <gary...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> --
> >The only time I made kiddush over grape-juice was when I had to spend
> >Shabbos in hospital (no alcohol allowed).
> >I was at a kiddush yesterday where there was one tray of whisky and several
> >trays of white grape-juice that looked very like whisky. We all had to tell
> >by smell which was "the real stuff". Some unfortunates accidentally tasted
> >the grape-juice and made a face. The whisky went very quickly and most of
> >the grape juice was left; I don't know why the good ladies who prepared the
> >kiddush bother to put it out every week.

White grape juice is not actually white, it is yellow. As is
whisk(e)y. To our Habad friends, the term "white" when employed in
regard to kiddush, means vodka.

GEK

[W. Baker]

cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:

: > ?This, obviously had nothing to do with kashrut. ?Kids in the 40s

: > did not drink much juice except that statutory small glass at breakfast.
: > If we were thirsty we drank NYC tap water and tomato juice was a frequent
: > first course at dinner.

: Yes! Tomato juice as a first course at (shabbos) dinner. I had
: forgotten all about that. We also sometimes had grapefruit juice as a
: first course at (shabbos) dinner. When I was growing up, we mostly
: drank diet soda and Kool-Aid (my mother bought the unsweetened
: variety, and our family recipe was to add exactly 11 saccharin tablets
: per pitcher. The bottle of saccharin tablets was kept in the
: silverware drawer for easy access).

: Thanks for the trip down memory lane.
: Best regards,
: ---Cindy S.

Well that shows that I am older than you:-) We had no Kool-Ade nor diet
soda and saccharine came in only late in my teens. I learned to drink
black, sugarless cofee as a teen so I could have something other than
water when out with a bunch of kids for a soda or ice cream or comething
fattenng. I have been on a almost perpetual diet of one sort or another
since the age fof 7!

Wendy

[cindys]

On Apr 22, 3:05 pm, "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote:

Yes, you are. But just remember that 55 is the new 30, and 75 is the
new 50...

>We had no Kool-Ade nor diet
> soda and saccharine came in only late in my teens.  I learned to drink
> black, sugarless cofee as a teen so I could have something other than

> water when out with a bunch of kids for a soda or ice cream or something
> fattening.  I have been on a almost perpetual diet of one sort or another
> since the age of 7!

Me too. I have spent nearly my entire life on the Atkins diet or some
variant of it. I always say that I think my mother was putting Tab in
my baby bottle. Back then, it was sweetened with saccharin and
cyclamates.

In most non-Jewish families, when I was growing up anyway, children
were served milk with dinner, but in ostensibly-kosher keeping
families, obviously that couldn't happen. So, we were given soda
instead. Since being overweight ran in the family genes, my mother
bought low-calorie soda as soon as it was invented.

In the beginning, there was low-calorie soda (I think it was 50 or 75
calories for 8 oz), but no-calorie soda hadn't been invented yet. And
Diet Coke came later. We had Diet Rite soda (which was the low calorie
version of Royal Crown). Also a lemon-lime drink called "Like," and
"Tab" of course. Both of these were Coca-Cola products.

At the time, soda came in glass bottles with caps, and the glass
bottles were returned to place of purchase (my parents often bought
soda at a Royal Crown outlet, and the bottles of soda came in wooden
cases, which also needed to be returned along with the empty bottles).
I think Diet Rite, Like, and Tab were pretty much the only low calorie
sodas available.

During Pesach, we drank Cott's pop which came in all kinds of flavors,
but I can't recall if there was a low calorie version or not. Probably
not in the beginning, but I think later on, there must have been. FTR,
I was asking at Wegmans about Cott's pop, and the manager told me that
Cotts stopped bottling under their own label years ago, but many of
the store-brand flavored sodas are actually Cotts.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[Gary]

Is there only one allowable transliteration of Hebrew/Yiddish terms?

[cindys]

On Apr 22, 3:05 pm, "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote:

snip

> We had no Kool-Aid nor diet

> soda and saccharine came in only late in my teens.  I learned to drink
> black, sugarless cofee as a teen so I could have something other than
> water when out with a bunch of kids for a soda or ice cream or comething
> fattenng.  I have been on a almost perpetual diet of one sort or another
> since the age fof 7!

----
And here's something else about that era: Chemical additives and
preservatives were modern innovations. They were seen as good things.
People never really thought that these additives might be something
harmful or carcinogenic. When it was reported that cyclamates and/or
saccharin might cause cancer, it was shocking and was headline news.
Back then, people were not savvy about nutrition at all.

My mother has often recounted the story that when I was a few years
old, I was a picky eater and only wanted to eat hotdogs, and she
complained about it to the pediatrician. His response was that hotdogs
were healthy because they were meat, and if I wanted to eat hotdogs
every day, there was nothing wrong with that. To this day, she doesn't
understand why I say hotdogs are unhealthy and refuse to buy salami or
boloney. When I was growing up, boloney in particular was a staple in
our refrigerator. The kosher butcher was always giving kids free
slices of boloney.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[Shelly]

Kiddish is the blessing. It starts with boruch atah....
Kaddish is said several times during a service, the last one for the
mourners and begins with yisgadal v'yiscadash.....

They are two totally different prayers which is what prompted my
original comment.

--
Shelly

[Harry Weiss]

One of ht elargest quantities of kosher syrupy gook was at a small store
in Compton, not exactlyo a Jewish area.

--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com

[W. Baker]

cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:

: On Apr 22, 3:05?pm, "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote:

: snip

: > We had no Kool-Aid nor diet

: > soda and saccharine came in only late in my teens. ?I learned to drink

: > black, sugarless cofee as a teen so I could have something other than
: > water when out with a bunch of kids for a soda or ice cream or comething

: > fattenng. ?I have been on a almost perpetual diet of one sort or another

: > since the age fof 7!
: ----
: And here's something else about that era: Chemical additives and
: preservatives were modern innovations. They were seen as good things.
: People never really thought that these additives might be something
: harmful or carcinogenic. When it was reported that cyclamates and/or
: saccharin might cause cancer, it was shocking and was headline news.
: Back then, people were not savvy about nutrition at all.

: My mother has often recounted the story that when I was a few years
: old, I was a picky eater and only wanted to eat hotdogs, and she
: complained about it to the pediatrician. His response was that hotdogs
: were healthy because they were meat, and if I wanted to eat hotdogs
: every day, there was nothing wrong with that. To this day, she doesn't
: understand why I say hotdogs are unhealthy and refuse to buy salami or
: boloney. When I was growing up, boloney in particular was a staple in
: our refrigerator. The kosher butcher was always giving kids free
: slices of boloney.
: Best regards,
: ---Cindy S.

Rings true 100% There wewe fewewr additives in use anyway. Break came,
not in plastic packages but in bags from the bakery where it had been
freshly baked the night before and staled up or molded pretty quickly.
that was why chemical additives were regarded so highly as it amade the
bread last longe.

In our kosher home we just had water for meat meals. Sda was really only
a treat asaas was ice cream which came in pint containers form the
drugstore as it had to be eaten up or stored in a ice tray in the tiny
icetray compartment. Frozen food came in after the War and were a great
boon. You could get peas in the winter time and "fresh" green limabeans
without havign to spend all day digging them out of their shells(my job).
I also used to relish thos fish dinners when we had mashed potatos with
butter and paprika on top to make it look nice! and things like chocolate
pudding for dessert. Takes me back a way.

Wendy

[cindys]

On Apr 22, 4:07 pm, "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote:
snip
>

> Rings true 100%  There were fewer additives in use anyway.  Bread came,

> not in plastic packages but in bags from the bakery

It wasn't until I was an adult that I understood that one could buy
white bread at a bakery. When I was growing up, the only white bread I
ever saw came in a plastic bag from the supermarket. On Fridays, my
other would sometimes buy a sliced challah and/or a sliced rye bread
at the bakery, but never a white bread. I grew up on Millbrook bread
and Wonder Bread (until my aunt wrote a letter to the factory and it
was discovered that one or the other of them contained beef fat).
After that, my mother bought Pepperidge Farm bread or Arnold's, which
I guess must have been okay. At any rate, I remember begging her to
stop buying Millbrook bread because it didn't have any substance to
it. It was like cotton candy. My sister and I used to take slices of
bread and squish it into teeny tiny balls and then pop it in our
mouths. Also, if you tried to spread butter or margerine on the bread,
it would always tear. What junk. And now after years of providing my
kids good quality bread, they refuse to eat anything other than this
same junk. The fresh bread from the bakery will go stale while they're
eating the Stroehmann's cotton candy bread.

> Frozen food came in after the War and were a great
> boon.

Frozen vegetables and other frozen foods were always available in my
lifetime, but my mother always bought canned vegetables (another
health food). She would boil the canned vegetables in a saucepan.
Later on, my sister and I would eat them right out of the can if we
wanted a sweet snack because they were full of added sugar. We didn't
like the taste of frozen vegetables (they tasted strange - nothing
like the canned vegetables we were used to), and I don't think I ever
saw a fresh vegetable at my mother's house other than iceberg lettuce
and cucumber (maybe a tomato on occasion).

>You could get peas in the winter time and "fresh" green limabeans
> without havign to spend all day digging them out of their shells(my job).

> I also used to relish those fish dinners when we had mashed potatoes with

> butter and paprika on top to make it look nice! and things like chocolate
> pudding for dessert.

Oh! Swanson's TV dinners! Another popular item at my house. We only
got the haddock because it was "kosher." It came with those little
tater tots and chocolate pudding. We also got frozen macaroni and
cheese dinners. These were also "kosher." Later, my mother did buy the
"treif" ones (turkey or chicken or salisbury steak - oh yum - not),
but we had to eat them with plastic silverware.

>Takes me back a way.

Me too.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.


>
> Wendy

[Gary]

But surely even the most yellow grape juice looks nothing like Johnny
Walker Red?

[W. Baker]

cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:

: On Apr 22, 4:07?pm, "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote:
: snip
: >

: > Rings true 100% ?There were fewer additives in use anyway. ?Bread came,

The only canned vegetables we are were Le Soeur tiny peas and corn. did
you ever have that quicke and dirty corn soup. 1 can "cream" style corn
plus i can milk an dsome salt and pepper? made a gread luch with soem
kind of sandwich.

As to bread we never had white bread, only rye and pumpernickle and
challah. When I had my tonsils out I had a problem so could only eat soft
foods for a while. Pepperidge Farms had just come out and Mom bought it
for meas it was more "natural" and therefore, nurishig than the soft
packaged white bread, which I always wanted because of all the
advertising. I was 7 at that time. I used to make those bread balls at
camp or places where that stuff was served too:-) I woudl also throw them
at my big brother who could alwasy out argue me.

Boy am I reliving much of my youth on this rainy day. Are you expecting
snow or rain?

Wendy Baker

[cindys]

On Apr 22, 8:01 pm, "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote:


>
> The only canned vegetables we are were Le Soeur tiny peas and corn.  did
> you ever have that quicke and dirty corn soup.  1 can "cream" style corn
> plus i can milk an dsome salt and pepper?  made a gread luch with soem
> kind of sandwich.

No, never had that.

>
> As to bread we never had white bread, only rye and pumpernickle and
> challah.  When I had my tonsils out I had a problem so could only eat soft
> foods for a while.  Pepperidge Farms had just come out and Mom bought it
> for meas it was more "natural" and therefore, nurishig than the soft
> packaged white bread, which I always wanted because of all the
> advertising.  I was 7 at that time.   I used to make those bread balls at
> camp or places where that stuff was served too:-)  I woudl also throw them
> at my big brother who could alwasy out argue me.
>
> Boy am I reliving much of my youth on this rainy day.  Are you expecting
> snow or rain?

Snow :-( On Friday, it was 85 degrees.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[Harry Weiss]

cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:

> On Apr 22, 11:14?am, "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote:

> snip

> >
> > I don't know if grape juice was expensive or if my mother thought it less
> > healthy than other drinks, but it was only at home occasionlly and it was
> > always wtered a bit, as my mother felt it was too strong or to sweet or
> > too something without some water.

> Same here! And I agree that nobody ever questioned the kashrut of
> Welch's grape juice (or any other kind of juice for that matter). The
> only non-meat food items that were really questioned at all were
> things like bread or crackers because they often contained beef fat or
> lard, and I think it's because my kosher-observant grandmother ate
> these things, so my mother was more careful. OTOH, Hostess cupcakes
> and Oreos were a staple in my house. As a friend of mine quipped, "Do
> you remember when we were children, all candy was "kosher?" Part of
> the issue was that packaged foods did not have ingredient panels
> printed on them. That came later, so what you didn't know couldn't
> hurt you.

I remember much of what you say except for Oreos. Nabisco was a synonym
for treif. Even as all the other companies started switching to
vegetable oils, they kept lard. It is that unhealthy associatin that
caused them to get an OU on almost everything for the purpose of shwing
they no longer use lard.

I don't remember a time with ingredients (and I am older than you)
Nabisco was konwn for saying animaal and vegetable shorting.

I also remember when the candy machine in the dining room at Mirrer
Yeshiva Brooklym had numerous candies with no hashgacha. Many of those
products did receive a hasghacha many years later.

[cindys]

On Apr 22, 9:06 pm, Harry Weiss <hjwe...@panix.com> wrote:

> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 22, 11:14?am, "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote:
> > snip
>
> > > I don't know if grape juice was expensive or if my mother thought it less
> > > healthy than other drinks, but it was only at home occasionlly and it was
> > > always wtered a bit, as my mother felt it was too strong or to sweet or
> > > too something without some water.
> > Same here! And I agree that nobody ever questioned the kashrut of
> > Welch's grape juice (or any other kind of juice for that matter). The
> > only non-meat food items that were really questioned at all were
> > things like bread or crackers because they often contained beef fat or
> > lard, and I think it's because my kosher-observant grandmother ate
> > these things, so my mother was more careful. OTOH, Hostess cupcakes
> > and Oreos were a staple in my house. As a friend of mine quipped, "Do
> > you remember when we were children, all candy was "kosher?" Part of
> > the issue was that packaged foods did not have ingredient panels
> > printed on them. That came later, so what you didn't know couldn't
> > hurt you.
>
> I remember much of what you say except for Oreos.  Nabisco was a synonym
> for treif.  Even  as all the other companies started switching to
> vegetable oils, they kept lard.  It is that unhealthy associatin that
> caused them to get an OU on almost everything for the purpose of shwing
> they no longer use lard.

Interesting. In the beginning, both Nabisco and Keebler used lard.
Then, one of them started switching to vegetable shortening Must have
been Keebler. That said, the Sunshine cookie company was using all
vegetable shortening at the same time Keebler and Nabisco were still
using lard. Do you remember Sunshine Hydrox (the Oreo cookie lookalike
substitute that was never as good as Oreo)? I don't see that cookie
around anymore. Maybe it's available in other cities. I suspect that
once Oreos got the OU, nobody was buying Hydrox anymore.

>
> I don't remember a time with ingredients (and I am older than you)
> Nabisco was konwn for saying animaal and vegetable shorting.
>
> I also remember when the candy machine  in the dining room at Mirrer
> Yeshiva Brooklym had numerous candies with no hashgacha.   Many of those
> products did receive a hasghacha many years later.
>

Yes. I recall that the Mars candy company (M and Ms) was generally
treif. The Hershey company made a product called "Hersheyettes" which
was a kosher version of M and Ms. It's also interesting that Tootsie
Rolls finally got an official hashgacha although apparently, they have
always been kosher.

A few months back, I bought a package of Sugar Babies. Wow, that
brought back a childhood memory. There were also Sugar Daddies (large
rectangular caramel lollypops) and Sugar Mamas (chocolate covered
Sugar Daddy). I haven't seen the Sugar Daddies or the Sugar Mamas
around in years.

I really wish Neccos and conversation hearts would get a hechsher. I
miss those. And Lifesavers too. I find it rather ironic that very few
name-brand hard candies seem to have a hechsher, considering that
white sugar is really the only ingredient. It must be that the dyes
and/or flavorings are not kosher or that the company doesn't think
that obtaining hashgacha would be a good business decision (if the
cost of rabbinical supervision would exceed the additional profits).

Most of all, I wish Hostess cupcakes and Twinkies would get an OU.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[W. Baker]

Harry Weiss <hjw...@panix.com> wrote:

Hasghachas were far less plentiful and I was raised by a generatin of
lable readers. I also never saw any of the "Heimish" brands and actually
don't in my neighborhood still unless Igo to a few places of specially
kosher stores. I have no memory of an kind of hasghacha on any tuna, for
example. I remember when they first appeared and it was after I was
married 48 years ago(though it seems like just yesterday).

Wendy Baker

[mos...@mm.huji.ac.il]

cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:

HUGE snip

> For Pesach, one of my guests (not one of the ones who brought a cell
> phone) offered to bring the grape juice, and she brought a lot of it.
> That the grape juice will flow at the seder is just assumed. Only
> maybe half the people drank any wine at all and not a lot of it. For
> 13 people, I only went through about 2 (small) bottles of wine for the
> entire seder. And when I was clearing the table, I poured a lot of
> half filled cups of wine down the drain.

Wow, imagine how many _drops_ you could have used that for when
saying the plagues! ;-)

--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University

[mos...@mm.huji.ac.il]

"W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> writes:
>
> Well that shows that I am older than you:-) We had no Kool-Ade nor diet
> soda and saccharine came in only late in my teens. I learned to drink

> black, sugarless cofee as a teen so I could have something other than
> water when out with a bunch of kids for a soda or ice cream or comething

> fattenng. I have been on a almost perpetual diet of one sort or another

> since the age fof 7!

May you continue, in good health, for many, many years!

[Gary]

Yes, indeed, but I was referring to kickles/kichel and ceder/seder.

[mos...@mm.huji.ac.il]

cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
> "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote:

snip

>> You could get peas in the winter time and "fresh" green limabeans
>> without havign to spend all day digging them out of their shells(my job).
>> I also used to relish those fish dinners when we had mashed potatoes with
>> butter and paprika on top to make it look nice! and things like chocolate
>> pudding for dessert.
>
> Oh! Swanson's TV dinners! Another popular item at my house. We only
> got the haddock because it was "kosher." It came with those little
> tater tots and chocolate pudding. We also got frozen macaroni and
> cheese dinners. These were also "kosher." Later, my mother did buy the
> "treif" ones (turkey or chicken or salisbury steak - oh yum - not),
> but we had to eat them with plastic silverware.

My wife tells about friends of hers. They had _three_ sets of dishes.
Meat, milk and _treif_!

[mos...@mm.huji.ac.il]

cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
> On Apr 22, 8:01=A0pm, "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> Did you ever have that quicke and dirty corn soup. 1 can "cream"

>> style corn plus i can milk an dsome salt and pepper? made a gread
>> luch with soem kind of sandwich.
>
> No, never had that.

One day a week we would have that for lunch in the Yeshiva high
school. We would carefully take out the corn and leave the "soup"! :-)

[mos...@mm.huji.ac.il]

cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
> Harry Weiss <hjwe...@panix.com> wrote:

> snip

>> I remember much of what you say except for Oreos. Nabisco was a
>> synonym for treif.

Same with us.

>> Even as all the other companies started switching to vegetable

>> oils, they kept lard. It is that unhealthy association that

>> caused them to get an OU on almost everything for the purpose
>> of shwing they no longer use lard.

Hmm, maks sense. When I heard that Oreos ha an OU I nearly fainted!
I still have not tasted it. Can't get past the bad memories.

> Interesting. In the beginning, both Nabisco and Keebler used lard.
> Then, one of them started switching to vegetable shortening Must
> have been Keebler. That said, the Sunshine cookie company was using
> all vegetable shortening at the same time Keebler and Nabisco were
> still using lard. Do you remember Sunshine Hydrox (the Oreo cookie
> lookalike substitute that was never as good as Oreo)?

For sure. I couldn't say it didn't taste as good, we never had Oreos.

> I don't see that cookie around anymore. Maybe it's available in
> other cities. I suspect that once Oreos got the OU, nobody was
> buying Hydrox anymore.

Very possible.

What about that cookie with the _very_ Italian name; Stella D'Oro.
I remember it also had the OU.

>> I don't remember a time with ingredients (and I am older than you)
>> Nabisco was konwn for saying animaal and vegetable shorting.
>>
>> I also remember when the candy machine in the dining room at
>> Mirrer Yeshiva Brooklym had numerous candies with no hashgacha.
>> Many of those products did receive a hasghacha many years later.

Harry, when did you learn in Mirrer Yeshiva? I gradutaed high school
there in June 1963.

>
> Yes. I recall that the Mars candy company (M and Ms) was generally
> treif. The Hershey company made a product called "Hersheyettes" which
> was a kosher version of M and Ms. It's also interesting that Tootsie
> Rolls finally got an official hashgacha although apparently, they have
> always been kosher.
>
> A few months back, I bought a package of Sugar Babies. Wow, that
> brought back a childhood memory. There were also Sugar Daddies (large
> rectangular caramel lollypops) and Sugar Mamas (chocolate covered
> Sugar Daddy). I haven't seen the Sugar Daddies or the Sugar Mamas
> around in years.
>
> I really wish Neccos and conversation hearts would get a hechsher. I
> miss those. And Lifesavers too.

Huh? Lifesavers don't have a hechsher? I find that very surprising.

> I find it rather ironic that very few
> name-brand hard candies seem to have a hechsher, considering that
> white sugar is really the only ingredient. It must be that the dyes
> and/or flavorings are not kosher or that the company doesn't think
> that obtaining hashgacha would be a good business decision (if the
> cost of rabbinical supervision would exceed the additional profits).
>
> Most of all, I wish Hostess cupcakes and Twinkies would get an OU.

LOL!

[cindys]

On Apr 22, 10:20 pm, "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote:

snip
>

> Hasghachas were far less plentiful and I was raised by a generatin of
> lable readers.  I also never saw any of the "Heimish" brands and actually
> don't in my neighborhood still unless Igo to a few places of specially
> kosher stores.  I have no memory of an kind of hasghacha on any tuna, for
> example.  I remember when they first appeared and it was after I was
> married 48 years ago(though it seems like just yesterday).

-----
Since the saltines were treif, my mother used to buy a brand of
crackers called "Educador" crackers at one of the kosher butcher
shops. The box had an owl on it. The blue box was unsalted tops, and
the red box was salted tops. For whatever reason, she always bought
the ones with the unsalted tops, which had a totally different taste
from the salted ones.

We were having problems with these tiny bugs called "weevils" that we
were constantly finding in the flour, cereal, etc. It was gross. We
were always checking for bugs before it was popular to do so (and not
for reasons of kashrus), but we couldn't seem to get rid of them and
didn't know where they were coming from.

One day, my mother opened a new box of these Educador crackers, and
the crackers were teeming with weevils. It turned out that the weevils
were actually coming from the Educador factory. My mother wrote the
company a letter and informed them of the problem, and that was the
end of the Educador crackers in our house and the end of the weevils.
After that, my mother bought Keebler saltines (kosher or not).

To this day, (and how many years later is this?), I still buy crackers
with unsalted tops (my kids think it's crazy) because I prefer the
taste. AND...I can't seem to stop doing double takes with the flour
and cereal, thinking I see little bugs out of the corner of my eye,
and then realizing I imagined it. I don't think I've ever found any
weevils in the flour or cereal since childhood, but it's force of
habit. I think the Educador cracker company went out of business years
ago.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[cindys]

On Apr 23, 6:09 am, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:

> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
> > Harry Weiss <hjwe...@panix.com> wrote:
> > snip
> >> I remember much of what you say except for Oreos. Nabisco was a
> >> synonym for treif.
>
> Same with us.
>
> >> Even as all the other companies started switching to vegetable
> >> oils, they kept lard. It is that unhealthy association that
> >> caused them to get an OU on almost everything for the purpose

> >> of showing they no longer use lard.
>
> Hmm, maks sense. When I heard that Oreos had an OU I nearly fainted!

> I still have not tasted it. Can't get past the bad memories.

Oh come on, Moshe! Be adventurous. Eat an Oreo! :-)

>
> What about that cookie with the _very_ Italian name; Stella D'Oro.
> I remember it also had the OU.

These cookies still exist, and they still have an OU, although they no
longer have the "Lady Stella Selection" selection, which I used to
like. The other nice thing about the Stella D'Oro cookies is/was that
they are/were pareve. A number of years ago, they went dairy, but
there were so many complaints that they went back to pareve (at least
for some varieties). The Swiss Chocolate Fudge variety still makes
frequent appearances at my house. Admittedly, they don't taste all
that great, but they are pareve, and while it's easy to find kosher
certified cookies on the supermarket shelves, it's really hard to find
kosher certified pareve cookies on the supermarket shelves.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[cindys]

On Apr 22, 8:37 pm, cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> On Apr 22, 8:01 pm, "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote:

snip

>
> > Boy am I reliving much of my youth on this rainy day.  Are you expecting
> > snow or rain?
>
> Snow :-(  On Friday, it was 85 degrees.
> Best regards,

-----
Morning update: It's a flipping winter wonderland out there! We're
having a mini snowstorm! Several inches of snow already on the ground
and another 4 inches on the way. Predictions of downed power lines
because of the weight of the snow. On Friday afternoon, it was really
hot, 85 degrees, as I said. We had to turn on the air conditioning.
The local newspaper had already stopped printing the "local snowfall
derby." Everybody's garden was full of flowers. All the local lilacs
were blooming. I wonder if the guy will come to plow our driveway
today. I've never seen anything like this in my whole life.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[lee]

On Apr 22, 8:53 pm, Shelly <sheldo...@thevillages.net> wrote:
> On 4/22/2012 3:33 PM, Gary wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 16:57:24 +0000 (UTC), cindys

> > <cste...@rochester.rr.com>  wrote:

Yeah actually I know its my mistake sorry. I always gets those 2 names
mixed up, plus I haven't said either for a very long time & if I did I
would have to do it in English or mumble & pretend to do the Hebrew.

[mos...@mm.huji.ac.il]

cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:

> On Apr 23, 6:09=A0am, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>> > Harry Weiss <hjwe...@panix.com> wrote:
>> > snip
>> >> I remember much of what you say except for Oreos. Nabisco was a
>> >> synonym for treif.
>>
>> Same with us.
>>
>> >> Even as all the other companies started switching to vegetable
>> >> oils, they kept lard. It is that unhealthy association that
>> >> caused them to get an OU on almost everything for the purpose
>> >> of showing they no longer use lard.
>>
>> Hmm, maks sense. When I heard that Oreos had an OU I nearly fainted!
>> I still have not tasted it. Can't get past the bad memories.
>
> Oh come on, Moshe! Be adventurous. Eat an Oreo! :-)

Also, it's not available in Israel. I plan to be in USA in two weeks.
Who knows?

>> What about that cookie with the _very_ Italian name; Stella D'Oro.
>> I remember it also had the OU.
>
> These cookies still exist, and they still have an OU, although they no
> longer have the "Lady Stella Selection" selection, which I used to
> like. The other nice thing about the Stella D'Oro cookies is/was that
> they are/were pareve. A number of years ago, they went dairy, but
> there were so many complaints that they went back to pareve (at least
> for some varieties). The Swiss Chocolate Fudge variety still makes
> frequent appearances at my house. Admittedly, they don't taste all
> that great, but they are pareve, and while it's easy to find kosher
> certified cookies on the supermarket shelves, it's really hard to find
> kosher certified pareve cookies on the supermarket shelves.

They were a mainstay of my lunch break when I worked there.

[Shelly]

On 4/23/2012 11:09 AM, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
> Also, it's not available in Israel. I plan to be in USA in two weeks.
> Who knows?

Florida?????

--
Shelly

[mos...@mm.huji.ac.il]

Shelly <shel...@thevillages.net> writes:
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>
>> Also, it's not available in Israel. I plan to be in USA in two weeks.
>> Who knows?
>
> Florida?????

I should have been mose specific. The Greater New York City area.
My sister is celebrating a bar-mitzvah of her twin grandsons. KA"H

[Shelly]

On 4/23/2012 11:40 AM, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
> Shelly<shel...@thevillages.net> writes:
>> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>>
>>> Also, it's not available in Israel. I plan to be in USA in two weeks.
>>> Who knows?
>>
>> Florida?????
>
> I should have been mose specific. The Greater New York City area.
> My sister is celebrating a bar-mitzvah of her twin grandsons. KA"H
>

I figured it was New York, but I was hoping.

--
Shelly

[JJ]

<mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:2012Apr2...@mm.huji.ac.il...

> Shelly <shel...@thevillages.net> writes:
>> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>>
>>> Also, it's not available in Israel. I plan to be in USA in two weeks.
>>> Who knows?
>>
>> Florida?????
>
> I should have been mose specific. The Greater New York City area.
> My sister is celebrating a bar-mitzvah of her twin grandsons. KA"H
>
> --
> Moshe Schorr

Mazal Tov to you and to your entire family.

Jay

[W. Baker]

mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:

: cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:

: HUGE snip

: > For Pesach, one of my guests (not one of the ones who brought a cell
: > phone) offered to bring the grape juice, and she brought a lot of it.
: > That the grape juice will flow at the seder is just assumed. Only
: > maybe half the people drank any wine at all and not a lot of it. For
: > 13 people, I only went through about 2 (small) bottles of wine for the
: > entire seder. And when I was clearing the table, I poured a lot of
: > half filled cups of wine down the drain.

: Wow, imagine how many _drops_ you could have used that for when
: saying the plagues! ;-)

: --
: Moshe Schorr

Btter down the drain than all over the tablecloth, even though on the one
I used applying salt heavily to the spill resuled in no stains after a go
roudn in the washing machine.

Wendy

[W. Baker]

cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
: On Apr 22, 8:37?pm, cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:

: > On Apr 22, 8:01?pm, "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote:

: snip
: >

: > > Boy am I reliving much of my youth on this rainy day. ?Are you expecting
: > > snow or rain?
: >
: > Snow :-( ?On Friday, it was 85 degrees.

: > Best regards,
: -----
: Morning update: It's a flipping winter wonderland out there! We're
: having a mini snowstorm! Several inches of snow already on the ground
: and another 4 inches on the way. Predictions of downed power lines
: because of the weight of the snow. On Friday afternoon, it was really
: hot, 85 degrees, as I said. We had to turn on the air conditioning.
: The local newspaper had already stopped printing the "local snowfall
: derby." Everybody's garden was full of flowers. All the local lilacs
: were blooming. I wonder if the guy will come to plow our driveway
: today. I've never seen anything like this in my whole life.
: Best regards,
: ---Cindy S.

I remember going up to Oneonta on a bus in early May in a snowstorm.
Spring snow is usually very wet and heavy, often doign damage to all kinds
of trees, even the evergreens. Fortunately, it usually doesn't stay on
the ground too long. Enjoy the prettiness and hoe it isappears quicky and
that the floweers are not all destroyed. We really do need the water!!!

Wendy

[W. Baker]

mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:

: cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
: > "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote:

: snip
: >> You could get peas in the winter time and "fresh" green limabeans
: >> without havign to spend all day digging them out of their shells(my job).
: >> I also used to relish those fish dinners when we had mashed potatoes with
: >> butter and paprika on top to make it look nice! and things like chocolate
: >> pudding for dessert.
: >
: > Oh! Swanson's TV dinners! Another popular item at my house. We only
: > got the haddock because it was "kosher." It came with those little
: > tater tots and chocolate pudding. We also got frozen macaroni and
: > cheese dinners. These were also "kosher." Later, my mother did buy the
: > "treif" ones (turkey or chicken or salisbury steak - oh yum - not),
: > but we had to eat them with plastic silverware.

: My wife tells about friends of hers. They had _three_ sets of dishes.
: Meat, milk and _treif_!

: --
: Moshe Schorr

Before I became observant and kashered my house, I did have one special
pot and large cooking spoon that I kept separate from all the ther dishes
so the kids could make cranberry sauce to take to Grandma's (kosher) house
for Thanksgiving dinner.

Wendy

[W. Baker]

cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
: On Apr 22, 9:06?pm, Harry Weiss <hjwe...@panix.com> wrote:
: >
: > I remember much of what you say except for Oreos. ?Nabisco was a synonym
: > for treif. ?Even ?as all the other companies started switching to
: > vegetable oils, they kept lard. ?It is that unhealthy associatin that

: > caused them to get an OU on almost everything for the purpose of shwing
: > they no longer use lard.

: Interesting. In the beginning, both Nabisco and Keebler used lard.
: Then, one of them started switching to vegetable shortening Must have
: been Keebler. That said, the Sunshine cookie company was using all
: vegetable shortening at the same time Keebler and Nabisco were still
: using lard. Do you remember Sunshine Hydrox (the Oreo cookie lookalike
: substitute that was never as good as Oreo)? I don't see that cookie
: around anymore. Maybe it's available in other cities. I suspect that
: once Oreos got the OU, nobody was buying Hydrox anymore.
: >
: > I don't remember a time with ingredients (and I am older than you)
: > Nabisco was konwn for saying animaal and vegetable shorting.
: >

: > I also remember when the candy machine ?in the dining room at Mirrer
: > Yeshiva Brooklym had numerous candies with no hashgacha. ? Many of those

: > products did receive a hasghacha many years later.
: >

: Yes. I recall that the Mars candy company (M and Ms) was generally
: treif. The Hershey company made a product called "Hersheyettes" which
: was a kosher version of M and Ms. It's also interesting that Tootsie
: Rolls finally got an official hashgacha although apparently, they have
: always been kosher.

: A few months back, I bought a package of Sugar Babies. Wow, that
: brought back a childhood memory. There were also Sugar Daddies (large
: rectangular caramel lollypops) and Sugar Mamas (chocolate covered
: Sugar Daddy). I haven't seen the Sugar Daddies or the Sugar Mamas
: around in years.

I used to love those Sugar Daddies, boy did they last a long time!!!!!
they also were very hard on one's fillings:-) Now all those candies are
irrelvant as I am diabetic and jusst stay away from everythig other than
85% cocoa chocolate bars. Why isn't Lindt kosher? So many others are,
but often cost more.

: Most of all, I wish Hostess cupcakes and Twinkies would get an OU.
: Best regards,
: ---Cindy S.

Wendy

[W. Baker]

mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote: : cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes: :

I still have not tasted it. Can't get past the bad memories.

: > Interesting. In the beginning, both Nabisco and Keebler used lard. : >
Then, one of them started switching to vegetable shortening Must : > have
been Keebler. That said, the Sunshine cookie company was using : > all
vegetable shortening at the same time Keebler and Nabisco were : > still
using lard. Do you remember Sunshine Hydrox (the Oreo cookie : > lookalike
substitute that was never as good as Oreo)?

: For sure. I couldn't say it didn't taste as good, we never had Oreos.

: > I don't see that cookie around anymore. Maybe it's available in
: > other cities. I suspect that once Oreos got the OU, nobody was
: > buying Hydrox anymore.

I think it went when store brands became common and popular. A cheaper
Oreo tpe and so many of those brands were hecchshered. No need for
Hydrox.

(Stell Doro)
: I remember it also had the OU.

A big kiddush favorite in our shul.

: >
: > I really wish Neccos and conversation hearts would get a hechsher. I

: > miss those. And Lifesavers too.

Pure sugar! Sin for me kosher or not:-)

: Moshe Schorr

Wendy

[W. Baker]

cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:

My mother used to love the stella D'oro Chinese almond cookies, which were
pretty god and parev. the Swiss fuge were loved by kids because of tht
round chocolae center. I no longer look for thee so don't know if they
are around in my neighborhood.

Wendy






: >
: > >> I don't remember a time with ingredients (and I am older than you)

[Yisroel Markov]

On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 14:19:44 +0000 (UTC), cindys
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> said:

[snip]

>For Pesach, one of my guests (not one of the ones who brought a cell
>phone) offered to bring the grape juice, and she brought a lot of it.
>That the grape juice will flow at the seder is just assumed. Only
>maybe half the people drank any wine at all and not a lot of it. For
>13 people, I only went through about 2 (small) bottles of wine for the
>entire seder. And when I was clearing the table, I poured a lot of
>half filled cups of wine down the drain.

[boast mode] We bought a case of wine for the sedarim - our mainstay,
non-mevushal 4% Melody sweet red by Farbrengen. We have two bottles
left, and an untapped case of grape juice. We have four-ounce cups for
whoever wants to go easy on the required drinking, but my Pesakh
goblet is ten ounces, and I drink it all.
[end boast mode]
--
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand

[mos...@mm.huji.ac.il]

Shelly <shel...@thevillages.net> writes:
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> Shelly<shel...@thevillages.net> writes:
>>> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>>>
>>>> Also, it's not available in Israel. I plan to be in USA in two weeks.
>>>> Who knows?
>>>
>>> Florida?????
>>
>> I should have been mose specific. The Greater New York City area.
>> My sister is celebrating a bar-mitzvah of her twin grandsons. KA"H
>
> I figured it was New York, but I was hoping.

I do have a sister-in-law who lives in Florida, but I don't think
I'll get to visit her.

[mos...@mm.huji.ac.il]

"JJ" <dmr...@gmail.com> writes:
> <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message

>> Shelly <shel...@thevillages.net> writes:
>>> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>>>
>>>> Also, it's not available in Israel. I plan to be in USA in two weeks.
>>>> Who knows?
>>>
>>> Florida?????
>>
>> I should have been mose specific. The Greater New York City area.
>> My sister is celebrating a bar-mitzvah of her twin grandsons. KA"H
>

> Mazal Tov to you and to your entire family.

Thank you. And simchas by you.

[mos...@mm.huji.ac.il]

"W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> writes:
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
> : cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>
> : HUGE snip
>
> : > For Pesach, one of my guests (not one of the ones who brought a cell
> : > phone) offered to bring the grape juice, and she brought a lot of it.
> : > That the grape juice will flow at the seder is just assumed. Only
> : > maybe half the people drank any wine at all and not a lot of it. For
> : > 13 people, I only went through about 2 (small) bottles of wine for the
> : > entire seder. And when I was clearing the table, I poured a lot of
> : > half filled cups of wine down the drain.
>
> : Wow, imagine how many _drops_ you could have used that for when
> : saying the plagues! ;-)
>
> : --
> : Moshe Schorr
>

> Better down the drain than all over the tablecloth,

Umm why should the drops go on the tablecloth? You'r supposed to have
a plate or saucer under a kiddush cup all the time, espescially when
you're purposely spilling out from the cup. And don't you use plastic
tablecloths on top of the beautiful one?

> even though on the one I used applying salt heavily to the spill

> resuled in no stains after a go round in the washing machine.

Thanks for the tip. How lond do you let the salt stay on the stain
before washing?

[mos...@mm.huji.ac.il]

"W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> writes:
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
> : cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
> : >

> : > Oh! Swanson's TV dinners! Another popular item at my house. We only
> : > got the haddock because it was "kosher." It came with those little
> : > tater tots and chocolate pudding. We also got frozen macaroni and
> : > cheese dinners. These were also "kosher." Later, my mother did buy the
> : > "treif" ones (turkey or chicken or salisbury steak - oh yum - not),
> : > but we had to eat them with plastic silverware.
>
> : My wife tells about friends of hers. They had _three_ sets of dishes.
> : Meat, milk and _treif_!
>

> Before I became observant and kashered my house, I did have one
> special pot and large cooking spoon that I kept separate from all
> the ther dishes so the kids could make cranberry sauce to take to
> Grandma's (kosher) house for Thanksgiving dinner.

I suspect that much of the kashrus in America in those days, was to
accomodate a Grandparent who was still keeping kosher. Nowadays,
those who do it, _want_ to do it.