Non-Religious "Seasonal" Symbols as Party Favors
av...@pacbell.net
that she would be giving a baby shower around the end of December at
was considering giving away non-religious "seasonal" symbols
(specifically, teddy bears and snowmen) as party favors. She wondered
whether Jewish guests would be offended at this.
I expressed doubt (as a matter of personal opinion and speaking only
for myself, of course) that any Jew but a very observant Orthodox Jew
would be offended by such secular symbols as these, or even by a candy
cane or tree-decoration ball. Religious symbols -- such as crosses or
manger scenes -- are another story, of course, and would be highly
inappropriate.
Another poster said that the "vast majority" of Jews would be "highly
offended" if they were given a tree-decoration ball at a party.
Responding to my own posting, she wrote that only "anti-Israel,
anti-religion, anti-observant jews" would share my opinion (I am none
of these, by the way), and encouraged me to ask this question on a
Jewish forum to see what kind of responses I got. So here I am.
How would you feel if you were invited to a baby shower by a non-Jewish
friend and were given a teddy bear, snowman, or even tree ball as a
party favor?
Steve Goldfarb
Short answer: none of them are, IMO, offensive.
Teddy bear and snowman of course not. With the tree decoration - well,
obviously to a Jew it's not a particularly useful gift, but a teddybear
isn't useful either. It's just a memento - there's nothing religious about
a tree ball.
Even if it was religious - it's the hostess's party, and if she wanted to
hand out crucifixes that'd be her right, I think. I would be
uncomfortable, but not "offended" per se, by that. But then - why would
someone want to do that? Of course, why would anyone want to give out
snowmen?
Is it offensive to give out corkscrews, if one of your friends is an
alcoholic or doesn't drink wine for whatever reason?
At worst it's insensitive, but it doesn't rise to the level of
"offensive."
--s
--
ToooooMuchCoffeeMan
av...@pacbell.net wrote:
> Responding to my own posting, she wrote that only "anti-Israel,
> anti-religion, anti-observant jews" would share my opinion (I am none
> of these, by the way), and encouraged me to ask this question on a
> Jewish forum to see what kind of responses I got. So here I am.
>
I think you should listen to that responder. She clearly knows a lot
about being offensive.
</sarcasm>
Dan Kimmel
<av...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:1129664318....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I think the tree ball is inappropriate. That said, I would look at the
intent of the person giving it. Harry Golden use to tell the story of going
to a luncheon in Atlanta where the appetizer course was obviously non-kosher
(I think it had bacon bits) so the hostess came over and said she wanted to
make sure he was taken care of properly and proceeded to serve him a shrimp
cocktail. :)
I can't imagine anyone being offended by a snowman or teddy bear unless it
was obviously in the form for use as a Christmas tree decoration.
Adelle
Offended - No.
Exasperated, dejected, and irritated - yes.
Why? Perhaps its because I worked retail for a while. I get fed up with how
much Christmas permeates everything. And a tree ball is only used to
decorate Christmas trees. If the poster scoffs at that, ask her "what other
time of the year does she display them?"
(donning asbestos)
I affiliate with a C synagogue, where I sub for Hebrew school classes and
help lead services but don't keep kosher, keep Shabbat, etc. So am kind of
middle of the road with leanings toward more observant.
Christmas is a touchy thing for me and always has been. The constancy of
everything being about the holiday just plain drives me nuts. It's less
about my Jewishness and more about the fact it's almost impossible to shut
out.
In the US, everything after Veteran's Day is about Christmas. You can't even
go grocery shopping without the ever present carols and Christmas wreath
bags. TV shows and commercials (even for local news stations) are 'holiday'
themed (reds and greens, carol playing in the background, with a menorah
stuck somewhere on the set). Society assumes everyone has warm, fuzzy
feelings about the holiday born out of sugar plum memories which make
Christmas time "the most wonderful time of the year." If you aren't joyous,
you are "a scrooge."
Why can't a baby shower be about the blessing to be? Why must it *also* be
about Christmas? The ornament is an easy and affordable thing for the
hostess, no doubt. But unless the expectant mom is making a big deal about
her Christmas baby, I think it's giving short shrift to the true purpose of
party, the child that's on the way.
As a friend's daughter laments, when you are born around Christmas, your
birthday gets melded into the holiday. Your birthday never gets to be a
special day all by itself. She now celebrates her half birthday in June
instead, so it can be a separate, unique day. This baby is having its
special day melded in, and its not even here, yet.
Adelle
[please remove the obvious to respond]
cindys
Hi, Adelle! I responded to the post regarding the "non-religious seasonal
symbols as party favors" much earlier this evening. When I responded, the
only people whose responses had preceded mine were Steve's and
TooMuchCoffeeMan. For whatever reason, my response has yet to appear on
SCJM. I'm not sure if that's because it went to a human moderator or because
it's floating around cyberspace.
I am concerned that if my post appears (following yours), it will appear as
if I were answering you back in a very rude way, when in fact, my post
wasn't written in response to yours at all, which appeared nearly 5 hours
after I clicked the send button on mine. My post was intended to respond to
the OP's statement that only the most Orthodox Jews would be offended by the
Christmas favor whereas other Jews wouldn't, and my response was that I
thought it was the opposite and stated that I thought the reason was that
secular Jews find Christmas threatening because their Jewish identity is
tenuous. I want to clarify: My post was not directed at you or at anything
you said, I do not consider that you are secular or that your Jewish
identity is tenuous, and my post was written and posted long before I saw
yours (which I would not have sent it if yours had appeared first). I want
to apologize in advance for any offense my response may engender.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Adelle
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4iF5f.70842$K91....@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
Some of my stuff gets waylaid in cyberspace, too.
Glad you posted this. Combining that with your remark on another thread
about less Jewish education leading to intermarriage was leading me into
places I had just made teshuvah over. So thank you for leading me away from
transgressing so soon ;-).
Hey, sometimes a parent does everything right and still gets a kids who
marries out ;-) But some of us 'do good' anyway.
Adelle
cindys
"Adelle" <adNOs...@SPAMcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:dsSdndeVZdPFvsre...@comcast.com...
My remark in the other thread was intended to be a general statement.
Although I think what I said is true for the most part, obviously, there are
notable exceptions and not just with respect to intermarriage. My words also
don't account for the numerous cases of ba'alei teshuva, many of whom come
from weak (Jewish) educational backgrounds. At any rate, the point I was
really trying to make in the other thread (which based on your response
here, probably wasn't clear at all) is that the non-O world spends a lot of
time focused on blaming intermarriage as the #1 reason for a loss of Jews,
and my thought on that is that the #1 culprit for loss of Jews is
assimilation, of which intermarriage is a natural outcome but not the cause.
The non-O communities spend a lot of time and energy trying to figure out
how to *stem the tide of intermarriage,* when I think their efforts would be
better spent trying to *stem the tide of assimilation.* Actually, I think
your particular situation really does prove my point with respect to strong
Jewish education = less assimilation. You are very Judaically involved, and
you are raising your children with a strong Jewish identity. I don't know
if that would have been the case if your Jewish education had been weak,
intermarriage or in-marriage, and I think that could apply to anyone.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Eliyahu Rooff
"Adelle" <adNOs...@SPAMcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:dsSdndeVZdPFvsre...@comcast.com...
>
out of 100% recycled electrons, as I wouldn't want it to be clogging a
land fill or polluting the water. In any case, what I'd said in reply
to the OP was:
Even there, I'd try to give the benefit of the doubt, as there are many
non-Jews to whom it never occurs that we don't put up Xmas trees or
celebrate some secular version of that holiday. With all the
anti-Semitism and hatred with which we have to deal, why look for
offense where none is intended?
Eliyahu
Eliyahu Rooff
maxine in ri
scarves and vests that they sometimes have on.
Tree ornaments are another matter, since I don't decorate trees, and
would probably pass it on to my non-Jewish SIL for her tree.
My personal favorite is snowflakes. I like to decorate my windows with
them and have a bunch of croched ones as well as the cut paper ones we
make every year.
Right now, tho, I have leaves hanging in the windows.
maxine in ri
Dan Kimmel
"Adelle" <adNOs...@SPAMcomcast.net> wrote in message
>
> In the US, everything after Veteran's Day is about Christmas. You can't
even
> go grocery shopping without the ever present carols and Christmas wreath
> bags. TV shows and commercials (even for local news stations) are
'holiday'
> themed (reds and greens, carol playing in the background, with a menorah
> stuck somewhere on the set). Society assumes everyone has warm, fuzzy
> feelings about the holiday born out of sugar plum memories which make
> Christmas time "the most wonderful time of the year." If you aren't
joyous,
> you are "a scrooge."
>
Not quite. There's enough truth there to that I can't say you're wrong, but
I'll note first, there's a minor civic observance called "Thanksgiving" (and
regardless of the Macy's parade and how retailers think, most people keep it
separate from December holidays) and second, at least in the northeastern US
where you and I are, there is increasing *public* acknowledgment of
Chanukah.
Now why a fuss should be made over Chanukah as opposed to, say, Sukkot or
Shavuot is a separate issue. But I note that there are menorahs (privately
funded) in public areas in Boston, that the local TV stations will extend
on-air Chanukah greetings throughout the holiday, and that there are even
Chanukah themed specials for kids on both public and commercial stations.
So the notion that "everything" is about Christmas isn't quite right.
Don Levey
For the teddy bear and snowman, I have no problem. But the decoration
ball is *only* used on a tree. It's a subtle (and unconscious) reminder
of exclusion. I know that as Jews we are a separate people in many ways,
but in the US we are still full and equal citizens. To me, it would be like
passing out mezuzzot at such a shower.
> Why? Perhaps its because I worked retail for a while. I get fed up with how
> much Christmas permeates everything. And a tree ball is only used to
> decorate Christmas trees. If the poster scoffs at that, ask her "what other
> time of the year does she display them?"
>
> (donning asbestos)
>
Room for another in there?
> I affiliate with a C synagogue, where I sub for Hebrew school classes and
> help lead services but don't keep kosher, keep Shabbat, etc. So am kind of
> middle of the road with leanings toward more observant.
>
Likewise, though my synogogue is Reform, as is the second one at which
I teach.
> Christmas is a touchy thing for me and always has been. The constancy of
> everything being about the holiday just plain drives me nuts. It's less
> about my Jewishness and more about the fact it's almost impossible to shut
> out.
>
A few years ago I was in the supermarket when Adam Sandler's "Chanukah
Song" came over the sound system. Two women nearby (who didn't look
Jewish, and I think were wearing crosses) were discussing just how tired
they were of that song; it was everywhere. I went up to them and said
"now you know how the rest of us feel."
> In the US, everything after Veteran's Day is about Christmas.
I should move to your town. Around me, some stores start with it
after *Labor Day* (for non-US: First Monday following the first Sunday
in September).
> You can't even
> go grocery shopping without the ever present carols and Christmas wreath
> bags. TV shows and commercials (even for local news stations) are 'holiday'
> themed (reds and greens, carol playing in the background, with a menorah
> stuck somewhere on the set). Society assumes everyone has warm, fuzzy
> feelings about the holiday born out of sugar plum memories which make
> Christmas time "the most wonderful time of the year." If you aren't joyous,
> you are "a scrooge."
>
And the fake "happy holidays" greetings? Every once in a while I ask
what holidays they're talking about - especially when Chanukah is over.
Funny, too, that the greeting changes from Happy Holidays to Happy
New Year right around Dec. 26th.
And of course Dan mentioned the *publicly-funded* recognition of these
holidays. Even when the displays themselves are privately-provided,
when placed on public land there is a public funding component. While
they claim that they are open to any and all religious displays, I will
believe it only when they permit a display provided by the town Satanists.
Until then, it is all talk designed to mask endorsement of religious
activity.
> Why can't a baby shower be about the blessing to be? Why must it *also* be
> about Christmas? The ornament is an easy and affordable thing for the
> hostess, no doubt. But unless the expectant mom is making a big deal about
> her Christmas baby, I think it's giving short shrift to the true purpose of
> party, the child that's on the way.
>
After all, wasn't that day supposed to be someone else's birthday?
> As a friend's daughter laments, when you are born around Christmas, your
> birthday gets melded into the holiday. Your birthday never gets to be a
> special day all by itself. She now celebrates her half birthday in June
> instead, so it can be a separate, unique day. This baby is having its
> special day melded in, and its not even here, yet.
>
We have a niece whose birthday is Dec 24th. We make a point of gathering
a separate time just for her birthday, with presents just for her.
My wife's family isn't Jewish, so they celebrate Christmas; when we
join them we schedule a time for the celebration which is mutually-
agreeable, usually between the two holidays. And my kids get gifts
in Chanukah wrapping paper. We each celebrate the religious aspects of
our holidays in our own homes.
--
Don Levey If knowledge is power,
Framingham, MA and power corrupts, then...
NOTE: email server uses spam filters; mail sent to sal...@the-leveys.us
will be used to tune the blocking lists.
ToooooMuchCoffeeMan
"Adelle" <adNOs...@SPAMcomcast.net> wrote:
> In the US, everything after Veteran's Day is about Christmas. You can't even
> go grocery shopping without the ever present carols and Christmas wreath
> bags. TV shows and commercials (even for local news stations) are 'holiday'
> themed (reds and greens, carol playing in the background, with a menorah
> stuck somewhere on the set).
My wife used to work at the corporate HQ of a large retailer with a
heavily Xtian corporate culture. Every year, a monstrous big-ass Xmas
tree went up in the lobby - but one year the HR equal-opportunity
officer came to her all gushing about how they were honoring the
religious traditions of their non-Xtian employees.
By this she meant, they were hanging dreidels on the tree.
When my wife stopped laughing, she tried two or three times to make the
HR person understand why this was inappropriate from a Jewish
standpoint, but she couldn't seem to get through. Finally, she pointed
out that a dreidel is a gambling device, and gee, our Southern Baptist
co-workers might be pretty upset by that, don't you think? (Casinos had
recently been a big political issue in the area and public opposition
was strongly religious.)
The dreidels came off.
The capper is that there were far more Hindus and Muslims working in the
building than Jews (lots of IT people from India) and it never occurred
to anyone to do anything to recognize their religions.
Adelle
"ToooooMuchCoffeeMan" <tooooomu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:tooooomuchcoffee-DD...@news.newsguy.com...
> In article <ZfWdnUoSc6a...@comcast.com>,
> "Adelle" <adNOs...@SPAMcomcast.net> wrote:
>
>> In the US, everything after Veteran's Day is about Christmas. You can't
>> even
>> go grocery shopping without the ever present carols and Christmas wreath
>> bags. TV shows and commercials (even for local news stations) are
>> 'holiday'
>> themed (reds and greens, carol playing in the background, with a menorah
>> stuck somewhere on the set).
>
> My wife used to work at the corporate HQ of a large retailer with a
> heavily Xtian corporate culture. Every year, a monstrous big-ass Xmas
> tree went up in the lobby - but one year the HR equal-opportunity
> officer came to her all gushing about how they were honoring the
> religious traditions of their non-Xtian employees.
>
> By this she meant, they were hanging dreidels on the tree.
>
> When my wife stopped laughing, she tried two or three times to make the
> HR person understand why this was inappropriate from a Jewish
> standpoint, but she couldn't seem to get through. Finally, she pointed
> out that a dreidel is a gambling device, and gee, our Southern Baptist
> co-workers might be pretty upset by that, don't you think? (Casinos had
> recently been a big political issue in the area and public opposition
> was strongly religious.)
>
> The dreidels came off.
ROTFLWTIME!!!!!!
Oh! how obtuse and how funny!
>
> The capper is that there were far more Hindus and Muslims working in the
> building than Jews (lots of IT people from India) and it never occurred
> to anyone to do anything to recognize their religions.
At the charter school my daughter attended, parents taught electives once a
week for an hour or so. I helped teach a class on festivals of light. It was
wonderful. These were truly respectful and motivated kids who wanted to
share their own practices and learn about others. The world's 'major'
religions were represented - Christian, Jew, Muslim and Hindu. They did
internet research to find other festivals of light.
Adelle
Adelle
Dan,
I will cede that maybe 10% is not (and I think I'm being generous).
Retailers start putting up Christmas decorations for "Christmas in July" and
leave them up, then add more for the Veteran's day sales. From Veteran's
day, Christmas music tapes are added to the rotation. And from the day
after Thanksgiving (the biggest shopping day of the year, with tons of
Christmas sales advertised in Thursday's Thanksgiving newspaper), retailers
just repeat the holiday tapes (over and over. Even my Christian co-workers
got fed up. We used to play the radio in the back room and take 'sanity'
breaks by switching off to listen to something else, even if it was for 30
seconds or less).
Yesterday, WCVB news did a consumer report about Home Depot and how people
considering giving Home Depot gift cards should know they cannot be used for
homedepot.com purchases. The lead in to the report was that Christmas is
right around the corner.
Newspapers have charity programs centered on Santa.
Yes, Boston Chabad has a great relationship with the Boston power structure
and the menorah lighting attracts all the right influential politicians and
is covered by all the major media. Yes, there is the Charlie Brown
Thanksgiving show and Arthur's "A Perfect Christmas" which highlights
Francine celebrating Chanukah. But by sheer volume of shows and references,
the 'other' December holiday just overwhelms everything else.
Adelle
Dan Kimmel
"Adelle" <adNOs...@SPAMcomcast.net> wrote in message
> Yes, Boston Chabad has a great relationship with the Boston power
structure
> and the menorah lighting attracts all the right influential politicians
and
> is covered by all the major media. Yes, there is the Charlie Brown
> Thanksgiving show and Arthur's "A Perfect Christmas" which highlights
> Francine celebrating Chanukah. But by sheer volume of shows and
references,
> the 'other' December holiday just overwhelms everything else.
Well, what percentage of the American populace celebrates Christmas? I'm
able to enjoy the lights and (some of) the music, and pretty much ignore the
rest.
I'm sure the Christians in Israel feel the same about Jewish holidays. :)
(And, yes, of course, there's a real issue about the *commercial*
exploitation of the holidays.)
maxine in ri
<Don_...@the-leveys.us> connected the dots and wrote:
~"Adelle" <adNOs...@SPAMcomcast.net> writes:
~
~> <av...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
~> news:1129664318....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
~> > On a parenting-related board, a poster (presumably non-Jewish)
noted
~> > that she would be giving a baby shower around the end of December
at
~> > was considering giving away non-religious "seasonal" symbols
~> > (specifically, teddy bears and snowmen) as party favors. She
wondered
~> > whether Jewish guests would be offended at this.
~> >
~> > I expressed doubt (as a matter of personal opinion and speaking
only
~> > for myself, of course) that any Jew but a very observant Orthodox
Jew
~> > would be offended by such secular symbols as these, or even by a
candy
~> > cane or tree-decoration ball. Religious symbols -- such as
crosses or
~> > manger scenes -- are another story, of course, and would be
highly
~> > inappropriate.
~> >
~> > Another poster said that the "vast majority" of Jews would be
"highly
~> > offended" if they were given a tree-decoration ball at a party.
~> > Responding to my own posting, she wrote that only "anti-Israel,
~> > anti-religion, anti-observant jews" would share my opinion (I am
none
~> > of these, by the way), and encouraged me to ask this question on
a
~> > Jewish forum to see what kind of responses I got. So here I am.
~> >
~> > How would you feel if you were invited to a baby shower by a
non-Jewish
~> > friend and were given a teddy bear, snowman, or even tree ball as
a
~> > party favor?
~> >
~>
~> Offended - No.
~>
~> Exasperated, dejected, and irritated - yes.
~>
~For the teddy bear and snowman, I have no problem. But the
decoration
~ball is *only* used on a tree. It's a subtle (and unconscious)
reminder
~of exclusion. I know that as Jews we are a separate people in many
ways,
~but in the US we are still full and equal citizens. To me, it would
be like
~passing out mezuzzot at such a shower.
~
~> Why? Perhaps its because I worked retail for a while. I get fed up
with how
~> much Christmas permeates everything. And a tree ball is only used
to
~> decorate Christmas trees. If the poster scoffs at that, ask her
"what other
~> time of the year does she display them?"
~>
~> (donning asbestos)
~>
~Room for another in there?
~
~> I affiliate with a C synagogue, where I sub for Hebrew school
classes and
~> help lead services but don't keep kosher, keep Shabbat, etc. So am
kind of
~> middle of the road with leanings toward more observant.
~>
~Likewise, though my synogogue is Reform, as is the second one at
which
~I teach.
~
~> Christmas is a touchy thing for me and always has been. The
constancy of
~> everything being about the holiday just plain drives me nuts. It's
less
~> about my Jewishness and more about the fact it's almost impossible
to shut
~> out.
~>
~A few years ago I was in the supermarket when Adam Sandler's
"Chanukah
~Song" came over the sound system. Two women nearby (who didn't look
~Jewish, and I think were wearing crosses) were discussing just how
tired
~they were of that song; it was everywhere. I went up to them and
said
~"now you know how the rest of us feel."
~
~> In the US, everything after Veteran's Day is about Christmas.
~
~I should move to your town. Around me, some stores start with it
~after *Labor Day* (for non-US: First Monday following the first
Sunday
~in September).
~
~> You can't even
~> go grocery shopping without the ever present carols and Christmas
wreath
~> bags. TV shows and commercials (even for local news stations) are
'holiday'
~> themed (reds and greens, carol playing in the background, with a
menorah
~> stuck somewhere on the set). Society assumes everyone has warm,
fuzzy
~> feelings about the holiday born out of sugar plum memories which
make
~> Christmas time "the most wonderful time of the year." If you aren't
joyous,
~> you are "a scrooge."
Mid-winter depression is a well-documented phenomena. Partly
light-deficiency, part irritation at being "cheered" at all the time.
~And the fake "happy holidays" greetings? Every once in a while I ask
~what holidays they're talking about - especially when Chanukah is
over.
~Funny, too, that the greeting changes from Happy Holidays to Happy
~New Year right around Dec. 26th.
~
~And of course Dan mentioned the *publicly-funded* recognition of
these
~holidays. Even when the displays themselves are privately-provided,
~when placed on public land there is a public funding component. While
~they claim that they are open to any and all religious displays, I
will
~believe it only when they permit a display provided by the town
Satanists.
~Until then, it is all talk designed to mask endorsement of religious
~activity.
Last year, to "outwit" the ACLU, the mayor of Cranston RI allowed
anyone to put up thier December symbols on City Hall's front lawn. Th
biggest complaints were about the pink plastic flamingos with red
stocking caps. The Chabad menorah and the Wiccan display got very
little press.
~> Why can't a baby shower be about the blessing to be? Why must it
*also* be
~> about Christmas? The ornament is an easy and affordable thing for
the
~> hostess, no doubt. But unless the expectant mom is making a big
deal about
~> her Christmas baby, I think it's giving short shrift to the true
purpose of
~> party, the child that's on the way.
~>
~After all, wasn't that day supposed to be someone else's birthday?
~
~> As a friend's daughter laments, when you are born around Christmas,
your
~> birthday gets melded into the holiday. Your birthday never gets to
be a
~> special day all by itself. She now celebrates her half birthday in
June
~> instead, so it can be a separate, unique day. This baby is having
its
~> special day melded in, and its not even here, yet.
~>
~We have a niece whose birthday is Dec 24th. We make a point of
gathering
~a separate time just for her birthday, with presents just for her.
~My wife's family isn't Jewish, so they celebrate Christmas; when we
~join them we schedule a time for the celebration which is mutually-
~agreeable, usually between the two holidays. And my kids get gifts
~in Chanukah wrapping paper. We each celebrate the religious aspects
of
~our holidays in our own homes.
maxine in ri
Adelle
"maxine in ri" <wee...@yoohoot.com> wrote in message
news:6ngjl19qahj1n34up...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 13:15:55 +0000 (UTC), Don Levey
> <Don_...@the-leveys.us> connected the dots and wrote:
>
> ~"Adelle" <adNOs...@SPAMcomcast.net> writes:
> ~
> ~> <av...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> ~> news:1129664318....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> ~> You can't even
> ~> go grocery shopping without the ever present carols and Christmas
> wreath
> ~> bags. TV shows and commercials (even for local news stations) are
> 'holiday'
> ~> themed (reds and greens, carol playing in the background, with a
> menorah
> ~> stuck somewhere on the set). Society assumes everyone has warm,
> fuzzy
> ~> feelings about the holiday born out of sugar plum memories which
> make
> ~> Christmas time "the most wonderful time of the year." If you aren't
> joyous,
> ~> you are "a scrooge."
>
> Mid-winter depression is a well-documented phenomena. Partly
> light-deficiency, part irritation at being "cheered" at all the time.
(LOL) Yes. I have a home made light box. For it to be effective, I need to
use it an hour before dawn. But as a night owl I sleep most deeply between 4
and 8 AM.
(sigh).
> ~
> ~And of course Dan mentioned the *publicly-funded* recognition of
> these
> ~holidays. Even when the displays themselves are privately-provided,
> ~when placed on public land there is a public funding component. While
> ~they claim that they are open to any and all religious displays, I
> will
> ~believe it only when they permit a display provided by the town
> Satanists.
> ~Until then, it is all talk designed to mask endorsement of religious
> ~activity.
>
> Last year, to "outwit" the ACLU, the mayor of Cranston RI allowed
> anyone to put up thier December symbols on City Hall's front lawn. Th
> biggest complaints were about the pink plastic flamingos with red
> stocking caps. The Chabad menorah and the Wiccan display got very
> little press.
>
Would like to have seen that!
Adelle
Dan Kimmel
> anyone to put up thier December symbols on City Hall's front lawn. Th
> biggest complaints were about the pink plastic flamingos with red
> stocking caps. The Chabad menorah and the Wiccan display got very
> little press.
There's a lot of misunderstanding about the ACLU's position which is
actually very common sense and pro-religious expression: religious symbols
should not be funded by the government and a public forum open for religious
displays has to be open to *all*.
So the mayor in this example didn't "outwit" the ACLU -- or the
Constitution -- but rather did what governments are supposed to do: be
neutral and let individuals choose for themselves.
There's a reason Jews have thrived in the US like nowhere else in the modern
diaspora.
Ken Bloom
Snowmen are fine. Teddy bears are also fine. As for tree balls...
Lechatchila they shouldn't do it. If they're asking, they should be told
it's not appropriate.
Bidieved, I'll assume ignorence rather than be offended.
--Ken Bloom
--
I usually have a GPG digital signature included as an attachment.
See http://www.gnupg.org/ for info about these digital signatures.
maxine in ri
<daniel...@rcn.com> connected the dots and wrote:
~
~"maxine in ri" <wee...@yoohoot.com> wrote in message
~news:6ngjl19qahj1n34up...@4ax.com...
~> Last year, to "outwit" the ACLU, the mayor of Cranston RI allowed
~> anyone to put up thier December symbols on City Hall's front lawn.
Th
~> biggest complaints were about the pink plastic flamingos with red
~> stocking caps. The Chabad menorah and the Wiccan display got very
~> little press.
~
~There's a lot of misunderstanding about the ACLU's position which is
~actually very common sense and pro-religious expression: religious
symbols
~should not be funded by the government and a public forum open for
religious
~displays has to be open to *all*.
~
~So the mayor in this example didn't "outwit" the ACLU -- or the
~Constitution -- but rather did what governments are supposed to do:
be
~neutral and let individuals choose for themselves.
Thanks. "outwit" was in quotes for that reason.
~There's a reason Jews have thrived in the US like nowhere else in the
modern
~diaspora.
~
maxine in ri
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> Teddy bear, snowman: no problem, altho I despise the green and red
> scarves and vests that they sometimes have on.
Come to sunny Israel. Here, they have no _idea_ of the connection
between green and red scarves and vests to Xmas. AAMOF you can find
blinking lights in the most Haredi sukkot. Americans never stop
laughing about it.
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
While going through this thread it sundenly dawned on me - this is
our annual "How do you handle Christmas in the USA" thread. It just
came in sneaky with a different Header. :-)
chanasarah
> that she would be giving a baby shower around the end of December at
> was considering giving away non-religious "seasonal" symbols
> (specifically, teddy bears and snowmen) as party favors. She wondered
> whether Jewish guests would be offended at this.
Tell your friend that there's no way to predict how someone would react,
that level of observance has much less to do with a Jew being offended (and
if so, how much) by a cheap party favor than past personal experience.
IMHO - Teddy bear - fine
Teddy bear with red and green scarf and hat - not so fine
Snowperson - OK
Teddy bear or snowperson with cord to be hung on a tree - not OK
Candy cane or tree-decoration ball - not at all OK
And I would have felt this way before I became observant.
If she's having a hard time, she could always try to find something like a
kitschy plastic dreidel filled with gelt to give to her Jewish guest(s).
That kind of personal touch would be more appreciated IMHO.
Wish her luck.
Tina
cindys
"chanasarah" <chana...@wowway.com> wrote in message
news:ds-dnWGoYLv...@wideopenwest.com...
> <av...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:1129664318....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > On a parenting-related board, a poster (presumably non-Jewish) noted
> > that she would be giving a baby shower around the end of December at
> > was considering giving away non-religious "seasonal" symbols
> > (specifically, teddy bears and snowmen) as party favors. She wondered
> > whether Jewish guests would be offended at this.
>
> Tell your friend that there's no way to predict how someone would react,
> that level of observance has much less to do with a Jew being offended
(and
> if so, how much) by a cheap party favor than past personal experience.
>
> IMHO - Teddy bear - fine
> Teddy bear with red and green scarf and hat - not so fine
> Snowperson - OK
> Teddy bear or snowperson with cord to be hung on a tree - not OK
> Candy cane or tree-decoration ball - not at all OK
And I can envision some people reading this who will think: Candy cane? Why
would someone be offended by that? Answer: The candy cane is intensely
religious. The "J" shape is supposed to represent Jesus, and the red
represents his dripping blood. (You'll never look at a candy cane the same
way again!)
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Tim Meushaw
> "maxine in ri" <wee...@gmail.com> writes:
>> Teddy bear, snowman: no problem, altho I despise the green and red
>> scarves and vests that they sometimes have on.
>
> Come to sunny Israel. Here, they have no _idea_ of the connection
> between green and red scarves and vests to Xmas. AAMOF you can find
> blinking lights in the most Haredi sukkot. Americans never stop
> laughing about it.
I had a few Americans (and one Israeli) laughing at the christmas lights
(non-blinking, blinking ones drive my wife nuts) we use as our only
illumination in our sukkah. But when the sun went down and we were
still out there and could see perfectly well, but had no blaring light
bulbs blinding anyone, people quickly became impressed and thought them a
good idea. I use 4 strands of small bulbs (3 white, 1 colored), and it
provides quite enough light to read by.
Now I have to get to the store and look for a strand of lights with little
pumpkins on them (since Sukkot is also a harvest festival). Have to
wait for the Thanksgiving supplies to go up in stores. Since Halloween
is next week, all the plastic pumpkins would have jack-o'-lantern faces,
which seems less appropriate for a sukkah.
Tim
--
Timothy A. Meushaw
meu...@pobox.com
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
> "maxine in ri" <wee...@gmail.com> writes:
>> Teddy bear, snowman: no problem, altho I despise the green and red
>> scarves and vests that they sometimes have on.
>
> Come to sunny Israel. Here, they have no _idea_ of the connection
> between green and red scarves and vests to Xmas. AAMOF you can find
> blinking lights in the most Haredi sukkot. Americans never stop
> laughing about it.
Look at 13th Avenue in the heart of charedi Boro Park in Brooklyn
at the middle of December. At least up to the mid 1980's (the
last time I was there) there were Xmas lights strung up by the
city. It was hyterically funny to look at. It reminded me of
the punchline: "Oy mister, have YOU got a wrong number !!"
Josh
chanasarah
news:2005Oct2...@mm.huji.ac.il...
> Everything snipped.
>
> While going through this thread it sundenly dawned on me - this is
> our annual "How do you handle Christmas in the USA" thread. It just
> came in sneaky with a different Header. :-)
Feh. It starts earlier every year!
Don't forget, Nov. 1 is when Purim costumes go on sale...
:P
Larisa
av...@pacbell.net wrote:
>
> How would you feel if you were invited to a baby shower by a non-Jewish
> friend and were given a teddy bear, snowman, or even tree ball as a
> party favor?
I would say "thank you" and accept the gift with as much politeness as
I'm capable of. Having experienced actual anti-Semitism in a much less
tolerant country than the US, I feel rather reluctant to seek offense
where none is intended - and cluelessness is not the same thing as
offensiveness.
If I got a tree ball, I'd probably pass it on to someone who had a tree
to hang it onto; but that's no reason to be offended, either. I'd just
say "I don't celebrate Xmas so I don't have a use for this; would you
like to have it?"
Furthermore, as a Jew living in Texas, I'm keenly aware that I may be
the only Jew some people know. Many of my students are evangelical
Xtians who don't know any other Jewish people. I'd like to present as
positive an image of Jews and Judaism as I can; and throwing a fit
because of a silly present doesn't sound like the right thing to do to
improve harmony.
Larisa
Ken Bloom
I was thinking of parodying the Lubavitcher Moshiachists by running a
"Rav Ovadia[1] for Moshiach" campaign on Purim. This being Chicago, I'll
advise others to "Vote early, vote often".
That just involves a T-shirt, I think.
--Ken Bloom
[1] I shouldn't say that too loudly -- Giora might hear.
Shlomo Argamon
Ken Bloom wrote:
> chanasarah wrote:
> > <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
> > news:2005Oct2...@mm.huji.ac.il...
> >
> >>Everything snipped.
> >>
> >>While going through this thread it sundenly dawned on me - this is
> >>our annual "How do you handle Christmas in the USA" thread. It just
> >>came in sneaky with a different Header. :-)
> >
> >
> > Feh. It starts earlier every year!
> >
> > Don't forget, Nov. 1 is when Purim costumes go on sale...
>
> I was thinking of parodying the Lubavitcher Moshiachists by running a
> "Rav Ovadia[1] for Moshiach" campaign on Purim. This being Chicago, I'll
> advise others to "Vote early, vote often".
>
> That just involves a T-shirt, I think.
And a turban with sunglasses!!
:-)BB!!
-Shlomo-
cindys
"Ken Bloom" <kbl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dju1pq$3an$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
> chanasarah wrote:
> > <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
> > news:2005Oct2...@mm.huji.ac.il...
> >
> >>Everything snipped.
> >>
> >>While going through this thread it sundenly dawned on me - this is
> >>our annual "How do you handle Christmas in the USA" thread. It just
> >>came in sneaky with a different Header. :-)
> >
> >
> > Feh. It starts earlier every year!
> >
> > Don't forget, Nov. 1 is when Purim costumes go on sale...
>
> I was thinking of parodying the Lubavitcher Moshiachists by running a
> "Rav Ovadia[1] for Moshiach" campaign on Purim. This being Chicago, I'll
> advise others to "Vote early, vote often".
>
> That just involves a T-shirt, I think.
Great idea! I just love R' Ovadia! Where can I buy the shirt? (I'm assuming
it's appropriately tsniusdik with long sleeves and a turtleneck) ;-)
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
fla...@verizon.net
I remember really biting my lip when someone who really should have known
better gave us an Xmas tree ornament as a gift, and we solved the problem
by beglecting to buy her something the next year; this way, we didn't have
to
worry about getting anything inappropriate from her ever again. To be
honest,
there was more at work than just cluelessness (or, rather, more than one
type of cluelessness), but it was a similar situation.
At another friend's house, she announced that "no one was allowed to leave
the party without taking one of" her extra ornaments. I looked at her &
asked,
"You're kidding, right?" She said "I don't care what you do with them - I
just
want them outo f here!" At which point I laughed, realizing that she just
didn't want the guilt of throwing any of them out. & since a handful of them
resembled doll's house toys, I took some.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 27-Oct-2005, "Larisa" <purple...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Furthermore, as a Jew living in Texas, I'm keenly aware that I may be
> the only Jew some people know. Many of my students are evangelical
> Xtians who don't know any other Jewish people. I'd like to present as
> positive an image of Jews and Judaism as I can; and throwing a fit
> because of a silly present doesn't sound like the right thing to do to
> improve harmony.
If you are the only Jew living among missionizers, it might be in your
best interests to let them know just *how* Jews & Xians differ. Xmas
might be a good place to start, too.
Susan
Damien Sullivan
back to Jewish content. hw ]
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>And I can envision some people reading this who will think: Candy cane? Why
>would someone be offended by that? Answer: The candy cane is intensely
>religious. The "J" shape is supposed to represent Jesus, and the red
>represents his dripping blood. (You'll never look at a candy cane the same
According to Snopes and Wikipedia, you're buying into modern Christian urban
legends (down to the catchphrase at the end), at least about the shape:
http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/candycane.asp
though "shepherd's staff" is mentioned. Of course, it's also convenient for
being hung on trees.
Though neither really says why the originally white cane turned into the red
and white version. Well, actually they say no one knows when that happened.
As far as any evidence goes "it looked prettier and red food coloring was
cheap" seems just as probable.
-xx- Damien X-)
Ken Bloom
> [ Moderator's Comment: We are losing Jewish content rapidly. Please get
> back to Jewish content. hw ]
> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>>And I can envision some people reading this who will think: Candy cane? Why
>>would someone be offended by that? Answer: The candy cane is intensely
>>religious. The "J" shape is supposed to represent Jesus, and the red
>>represents his dripping blood. (You'll never look at a candy cane the same
>
>
> According to Snopes and Wikipedia, you're buying into modern Christian urban
> legends (down to the catchphrase at the end), at least about the shape:
>
> http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/candycane.asp
Is there really any difference between a modern christian urban legend
and a modern christian belief?
--Ken Bloom
Larisa
Sure - but again, a polite "We don't celebrate Xmas, but thank you
anyway" is going to get much better results than throwing the Xmas
ornament into the giver's face.
LM
maxine in ri
connected the dots and wrote:
~
~I remember really biting my lip when someone who really should have
known
~better gave us an Xmas tree ornament as a gift, and we solved the
problem
~by beglecting to buy her something the next year; this way, we didn't
have
~to
~worry about getting anything inappropriate from her ever again. To be
~honest,
~there was more at work than just cluelessness (or, rather, more than
one
~type of cluelessness), but it was a similar situation.
~
~At another friend's house, she announced that "no one was allowed to
leave
~the party without taking one of" her extra ornaments. I looked at her
&
~asked,
~"You're kidding, right?" She said "I don't care what you do with them
- I
~just
~want them outo f here!" At which point I laughed, realizing that she
just
~didn't want the guilt of throwing any of them out. & since a handful
of them
~resembled doll's house toys, I took some.
~
~Susan
Unless you live in a community like kiryat joel, there should be some
neighbor or donation place where they would be welcome.
Like the basket of food my coworkers sent to my mother's house when my
father died. Fruit, nuts, and little salami's and cheeses.
It's the thought that counts....sometimes<G>
maxine in ri
Jack
> Like the basket of food my coworkers sent to my mother's house when my
> father died. Fruit, nuts, and little salami's and cheeses.
>
> It's the thought that counts....sometimes<G>
And why should your non-Jewish co-workers be so familiar with your
dietary restrictions?
Jack
cindys
"Jack" <baro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3fohf.1171$Zb2...@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
And where did she say they *should* be?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
fla...@verizon.net
The same way any co-worker is familiar with anything about
another co-worker. Normal people talk to each other, especially
during lunch breaks.
Susan
Eliyahu
in real life, nor do you work in a place where you interact with live
human beings. Over the past 40+ years, I've found that wherever I
work, it only takes a few days to become familiar with my coworkers and
to have some idea of any restrictions on their diet or lifestyle that
would affect them on the job. After working with people for a few weeks
or months, it's not unusual to be very familiar with them to the extent
that I have a good idea of how they live, what they do for recreation,
where they go to church or shul, and some of the problems they deal
with on a daily basis. For anyone to work with an observant Jew (or
Muslim, for that matter) and not be aware that they can't eat just
anything placed in front of them suggests that the person is either
being intentionally obtuse or is an incredibly antisocial automaton.
Eliyahu
B. Joshua Rosen
> On a parenting-related board, a poster (presumably non-Jewish) noted
> that she would be giving a baby shower around the end of December at was
> considering giving away non-religious "seasonal" symbols (specifically,
> teddy bears and snowmen) as party favors. She wondered whether Jewish
> guests would be offended at this.
>
> I expressed doubt (as a matter of personal opinion and speaking only for
> myself, of course) that any Jew but a very observant Orthodox Jew would
> be offended by such secular symbols as these, or even by a candy cane or
> tree-decoration ball. Religious symbols -- such as crosses or manger
> scenes -- are another story, of course, and would be highly
> inappropriate.
>
> Another poster said that the "vast majority" of Jews would be "highly
> offended" if they were given a tree-decoration ball at a party.
> Responding to my own posting, she wrote that only "anti-Israel,
> anti-religion, anti-observant jews" would share my opinion (I am none of
> these, by the way), and encouraged me to ask this question on a Jewish
> forum to see what kind of responses I got. So here I am.
>
> How would you feel if you were invited to a baby shower by a non-Jewish
> friend and were given a teddy bear, snowman, or even tree ball as a
> party favor?
Anything made out of chocolate is OK, I love chocolate Easter Bunnies and
a chocolate tree ornament should be just as good.
On a more serious note there is no reason that any Jew should be offended
by any Christian religious symbols that a Christian friend has at their
house or at their baby shower. Your friend is showing some sensitivity to
your feelings, and that's very nice of her. If I were you I'd tell her
that she can have any party favors she wants but that she should also have
a few secular favors to hand out to her non-Christian friends, snowmen,
teddy bears (unless they are wearing crosses), sleighs or even Rudolf is
fine (after all Rudolf is a symbol of the Montgomery Ward company not of
the Catholic Church).
We are a tiny minority and if we want the Christian majority to respect
our rights and our traditions then we should respect their's. If you were
to invite your friend over to your house you wouldn't expect them to be
offended my your menorah would you? You wouldn't rip your mezuzahs off of
your door posts just because a non-Jewish friend was coming to your house?
Harry Weiss
> Eliyahu
I have worked in the same office for over a quarter century. A number of
other workers have been there as long or almost as long.
Everyone knows I have dietary restrictions and am gone a number of days
for religious holidays. That is the full extend of knowledge for some
people. Others know to ask if A, b or C is okay. There are others who
know to look for the OU or OK.
The biggest problem I have is when people specifically bring OU d cookies
or OU Ice cream because of me, and I have a meat lunch only a few hours
earlier not knowing. (If I know something is coming up, I make sure to
eat parve or dairy, which I do anyhome 95% of the time)
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
fla...@verizon.net
On 25-Nov-2005, "B. Joshua Rosen" <bjr...@PleaseDontSpamMEpolybus.com>
wrote:
> We are a tiny minority and if we want the Christian majority to respect
> our rights and our traditions then we should respect their's. If you were
> to invite your friend over to your house you wouldn't expect them to be
> offended my your menorah would you? You wouldn't rip your mezuzahs off of
> your door posts just because a non-Jewish friend was coming to your house?
You are conflating 2 separate issues.
No Jew would ever hand out little menorahs or mezzuzahs for their non-Jewish
friends to take home.
Susan
cindys
"B. Joshua Rosen" <bjr...@PleaseDontSpamMEpolybus.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.11.25...@PleaseDontSpamMEpolybus.com...
> On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:42:05 +0000, avi-j wrote:
> > Another poster said that the "vast majority" of Jews would be "highly
> > offended" if they were given a tree-decoration ball at a party.
[...]
> >
> > How would you feel if you were invited to a baby shower by a non-Jewish
> > friend and were given a teddy bear, snowman, or even tree ball as a
> > party favor?
>
> Anything made out of chocolate is OK, I love chocolate Easter Bunnies and
> a chocolate tree ornament should be just as good.
As long it's kosher certified.
>
> On a more serious note there is no reason that any Jew should be offended
> by any Christian religious symbols that a Christian friend has at their
> house or at their baby shower.
This wasn't the issue. The issue was that the hostess wanted to hand out
Christmas tree ornaments as party favors to all the guests, not that the
Jewish guests might be offended if the hostess were expressing her personal
religious beliefs as part of her home decor.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Tim Meushaw
> Anything made out of chocolate is OK,
Not necessarily. I've seen a lot of chocolate that's OU.
<ducks and runs>
Shavua tov,
Larisa
Eliyahu wrote:
>From your query, I have to assume that you don't actually know any Jews
> in real life, nor do you work in a place where you interact with live
> human beings. Over the past 40+ years, I've found that wherever I
> work, it only takes a few days to become familiar with my coworkers and
> to have some idea of any restrictions on their diet or lifestyle that
> would affect them on the job. After working with people for a few weeks
> or months, it's not unusual to be very familiar with them to the extent
> that I have a good idea of how they live, what they do for recreation,
> where they go to church or shul, and some of the problems they deal
> with on a daily basis. For anyone to work with an observant Jew (or
> Muslim, for that matter) and not be aware that they can't eat just
> anything placed in front of them suggests that the person is either
> being intentionally obtuse or is an incredibly antisocial automaton.
It's true that people may be aware that there are some restrictions on
one's diet or lifestyle, but they may not know every little detail of
the restrictions in question. At my last job, I worked with a
Pakistani Muslim woman for a year and a half, and I did not get any
useful information about what she could and could not eat. We had
polite conversations, we talked about our respective religious
holidays, and I knew that she did not eat just about anything placed in
front of her - but I had no idea what the rules were.
I would not expect any coworker of mine to have a more clear idea of my
own diet than I have of theirs - so if I'm offered pig's ears in
lobster sauce, I will politely refuse without making any further
assumptions.
LM
maxine in ri
connected the dots and wrote:
~
~On 24-Nov-2005, Jack <baro...@yahoo.com> wrote:
~
~> maxine in ri wrote:
~>
~> > Like the basket of food my coworkers sent to my mother's house
when my
~> > father died. Fruit, nuts, and little salami's and cheeses.
~> >
~> > It's the thought that counts....sometimes<G>
~>
~> And why should your non-Jewish co-workers be so familiar with your
~> dietary restrictions?
~
~The same way any co-worker is familiar with anything about
~another co-worker. Normal people talk to each other, especially
~during lunch breaks.
~
~Susan
Because they ask me, like I was a freak sometimes, about Jews and
their weird dietary laws. Because when the boss takes us out for the
end-of-the-year department lunch, they always go to a steak house, and
I order the salmon or a salad while they gulp down large hunks of cow
and various sea critters beforehad (calamari, stuffed shrimp, cheesy
dishes etc.). Then ask me why I don't try some, it's so delicious. Me
and the department vegetarian are alway out-voted on our choice of
venue, none of which are kosher, but some which have a better
selection of foods we are willing to eat outside our own homes.
So yeah, they know. But being in a largely Catholic and xian society,
I know they meant well, even tho I was quite irritated at the time.
Something to do with the mourning, perhaps.
maxine in ri