Good news: haredi enlistment in IDF up!
Jay J
4. Hareidi Jews' IDF Enlistment Rises Tenfold in Two Years
by Gil Ronen
The Shachar program for enlistment of hareidi-religious men to the IDF
has seen a sharp rise in popularity in the three years since it began:
from 40 hareidi conscripts in 2007, to 200 the next year, to 400 in
2009.
The number of hareidi men expected to join the IDF through the program
is expected to reach 1,000 this calendar year.
The Shachar program is a joint initiative of the IDF and JDC-Israel.
Unlike the Nachal Hareidi combat program, it offers technological
training and service in the Air Force and Technology Branch.
"Enlistment to the military is now an attractive option for hareidi
men,” a JDC official said. “It enables them to acquire a profession
and work experience through the army, while adhering to their culture,
religious needs and the strict norms of the hareidi sector.”
Candidates undergo “rigorous selection,” the JDC official said, and
then sign up for two or three years' service, sometimes longer. They
undergo basic training and are trained professionally as software
inspectors, programmers, technicians, mechanics and more.
"In recent years there has been a considerable rise in the number of
hareidi men willing to go out and work for a living, mostly due to
financial hardship and the shortage of Torah-related jobs,” the JDC
official said. “Military service makes it possible to fill educational
gaps and acquire a profession that will help them join the workforce
successfully.”
Many Hareidi men strive for a life of Torah learning. This often
involves living off of meager study stipends from the government or
donors, and dependence on their wives' incomes.
Comment on this story
Jay
sheldonlg
While a ten-fold increase is nice, I see that there were only 400
joining. If Charedi make up 15% of Israel's population of about 6
million, then that would be 900,000. Even if you eliminate all the
women, that leaves 450,000 men. For men between the ages of 18 and,
say, 35, that would still leave about 150,000. So, while a ten-fold
increase may be encouraging, it still amounts to less than 0.5% of the
men eligible to serve.
Sorry Cindy, but I had to interject this dose of reality.
--
Shelly
Jay J
Shel: What you say is true, but it's still good news. All beginings
are modest. The 400 men will talk to another 400 men, and so on. Thus
begins the integration of the haredim into Israeli society (if this
continues-- there have been false starts in the past). When I served
in the IDF, we had one nice kid who wore a knit kippa and throughout
his service became more and more haredi. By the time we served
together in 1967 as reserves, he was wearing a black coat and black
hat. It bothered NO ONE. He did his job well, he accepted us, we
accepted him, there was NO problem.
Hope this continues.
Jay
cindys
Me too, and thank you for posting this.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
sheldonlg
unemployment has stopped climbing. In both there is a looooong way to go.
--
Shelly
sheldonlg
....and thank you for reaffirming my belief in you.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
>
--
Shelly
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
There are those of us who want to get the US military to allow beards
so that more cHaredi can join the US military. Between Chabad and
Aish HaTorah we could shift the numbers in the ranks towards a very
conservative population of American Jews in uniform.
Jay J
and you are absolutely correct. But is is a big step forward. There
are also some problems here which most people are not aware of. These
men been indoctrinated into a life of learning and not working in the
belief that their learning is the highest value and that they save the
nation by their study and prayer. The term often used is "Neheragim
be'ohala shel Torah" -- they are being killed in the tent of the
Torah. This term is often used after a war, when their rabbis use it
to say that they, too, sacrifice, albeit not on the physical front but
on the spiritual one. They have no problem living on charity, because
this is what the secular Jews are supposed to do -- support their
learning brethren.
Second, there are wars within the haredi world. For every haredi rabbi
who tells his flock that they should go and serve in the IDF, or learn
a useful civilian trade, there is another haredi rabbi who will tell
them that they sin gravely by associating with the illegal Zionist
entity which set up a Zionist state against the express wishes of God.
They'll find the appropriate quote for it. So often these men need to
decide whom to listen to, and there are conflicts within communities
and within families. OTOH, there are many haredim who work, support
their families, succeed, and know how to navigate the dangerous divide
between the haredi world and the secular world. They are no less
devout that the perennial students, and they enforce the rabbis who
tell their people to go to work.
They have a huge problem with the secular world. They have been taught
that the secular press is full of lies, especially about them; their
own press will gloss over or outright ignore any negative news about
the haredi world (some of the haredi press is now ignoring the fact
that former Mayor Lupoliansky of Jerusalem, a haredi, is highly
implicated in the Holyland bribery scandal and has been under house
arrest). They are taught that the secular world is full of temptations
that will corrupt them or their kids (TV, the internet, the cinema,
etc.) that Satan lurks in order to tempt them from a good and
righteous life, and that the Zionist police and courts are out to get
them. For them, these are very real threats.
Above all, when they do take what is for them a very courageous and
daring step and go out to the world, they usually continue their
studies (much like the haredim in NY, who travel to and from 47th
Street in Manhattan on a school bus and study while they're
traveling). I have studied while working full time. It's tough. For
them, there is no question that they HAVE to continue studying, tired
or not, because that's where their life source is, and it's their very
being. I imagine there is a lot of worrying and insomnia when someone
has refrained from studying on a given day because he was too
exhausted.
I'm not going to go into their politics and politicians, with which I
vehemently disagree. But when you hear that 400 haredim have gone out
into the world, where they may learn that not all seculars eat young O
kids for breakfast, it's a huge step forward.
Sorry for rambling on.
Jay
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
> Jay-
What I am seeing is that Judaism has become a "nation" of priests and
Levites. The cHaredi want to fill the function of what the Levites
had before the destruction of the 1st Temple. They were the scholars
and teachers and their towns more like our modern university towns.
Slowly we are seeing those who are non religious, non observant, being
assimilated into the rest of the world's population. This leaves
those who are more like the Levites than the other tribes (as it was
from Joshua to David).
cindys
wrote:
snip
>
> There are those of us
You, yourself, and you?
>who want to get the US military to allow beards
> so that more cHaredi can join the US military.
Lol. The last time I checked, there weren't an awful lot of American
chareidim chomping at the bit to join the US Army (but who were being
prevented because of the prohibition against beards).
>Between Chabad and
> Aish HaTorah we could shift the numbers in the ranks towards a very
> conservative population of American Jews in uniform.
Please enjoy your fantasies.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
Actually Cindy we have a Chabad chaplain, MAJ Felzenberg (now
stationed at West Point), who has an expressed goal of getting the
rules changed to allow beards for the very fact of bringing more
cHaredi into the military. And there are other Rabbis who also want
this change (COL Goldstein who does have a beard). There is one Sikh
in the Army who has been allowed the beard and the Turban.
Given how the Army is making allowances in the DFACs (dining
facilities) for Muslims, why not go all the way and have the DFACs
kosher?
Oh, the one reason that we do not have more cHaredi is the prohibition
of beards.
Abe Kohen
"Jay J" <levi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4838ed55-887d-48a3...@t15g2000vbo.googlegroups.com...
On May 6, 8:58 am, sheldonlg <sheldo...@giganews.com> wrote:
> On 5/6/2010 8:49 AM, Jay J wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > From A-7:
>
> > 4. Hareidi Jews' IDF Enlistment Rises Tenfold in Two Years
> > by Gil Ronen
>
> > The Shachar program for enlistment of hareidi-religious men to the IDF
> > has seen a sharp rise in popularity in the three years since it began:
> > from 40 hareidi conscripts in 2007, to 200 the next year, to 400 in
> > 2009.
>
> > The number of hareidi men expected to join the IDF through the program
> > is expected to reach 1,000 this calendar year.
>
To be fair, at kom hamdina (Glickler teitch: independence), haredi men and
women served in the IDF and its precursors.
In particular I get a kick out of my Haredi aunt in Boro Park, who while she
was not then Haredi, served in the Israeli Air Force and also took part in
the pre-Independence struggle. Not bad for a Holocaust survivor.
Best,
Abe
cindys
> On May 6, 1:17 pm, cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On May 6, 12:32 pm, "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <omega....@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > snip
>
> > > There are those of us
>
> > You, yourself, and you?
>
> > >who want to get the US military to allow beards
> > > so that more cHaredi can join the US military.
>
> > Lol. The last time I checked, there weren't an awful lot of American
> > chareidim chomping at the bit to join the US Army (but who were being
> > prevented because of the prohibition against beards).
>
> > >Between Chabad and
> > > Aish HaTorah we could shift the numbers in the ranks towards a very
> > > conservative population of American Jews in uniform.
>
> > Please enjoy your fantasies.
> > Best regards,
> > ---Cindy S.
>
> Actually Cindy we have a Chabad chaplain, MAJ Felzenberg (now
> stationed at West Point), who has an expressed goal of getting the
> rules changed to allow beards for the very fact of bringing more
> cHaredi into the military.
And he's living in la-la land too.
> And there are other Rabbis who also want
> this change (COL Goldstein who does have a beard).
Good. Let them change it, and the number of chareidi who will join as
a result of this change will be counted on the fingers of one hand.
Where did you get this ridiculous notion that chareidim are just
itching to join the US Army and if not for the no-beards rule, they
would be joining?
The chareidim are focused on sitting in yeshiva and getting married.
What in the world does the US Army have to offer that would compel
them to leave their frum communities and yeshiva, and take their frum
wives and multiple children to go live on an army base in the middle
of nowhere with a bunch of non-Jews? Is the army base going to provide
their families with glatt kosher meat, cholov yisroel milk, etc, or
are they and their wives and their six kids going to live on Meal Mart
TV dinners seven days a week? And where is the minyan? And where is
the yeshiva? Why would any sane frum man who had a choice, choose to
live a life of such a myriad of hardships for himself and/or his
family?
>There is one Sikh
> in the Army who has been allowed the beard and the Turban.
And what does this have to do with chareidim?
>
> Given how the Army is making allowances in the DFACs (dining
> facilities) for Muslims, why not go all the way and have the DFACs
> kosher?
And why not go all the way and have a sex-segregated, shomer shabbos,
shomer yom tov basic training and army because that would be the very
minimum of what the chareidim would require.
>
> Oh, the one reason that we do not have more cHaredi is the prohibition
> of beards.
Not at all. The reason you do not have more chareidim is because
joining the army would invariably require them to be mechallel shabbos
and yom tov and interact with women and eat Meal Mart TV dinners and
not have a minyan or a chavrusa or community and be exposed to all
kinds of gashmius (physicalities) that they would normally try to
avoid and create all kinds of hardships for themselves and their
families.
I had a good friend who could have been West Point material. He asked
his rabbi if he could have a heter (permission) to join the army. His
rabbi said absolutely not, as being in the army would require him to
be mechallel shabbos, and since there was nothing compelling him to
join the army, there was no justification for such a heter. The
subject of a beard didn't even enter the conversation.
As I said, please enjoy your fantasies.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
Because of discussions with Chaplains like CH (MAJ) Felzenberg and CH
(COL) Goldstein, along with others. It may suprise you once it
happens. What we are not getting are Reform or Conservative Jews,
especially as chaplains.
As for the food, that is where the goal of having our DFACs become
kosher military wide. The push is due to the military trying to deal
with Muslims such that by becoming kosher they also meet Islamic
standards. And if enough Jews enlist then a minyan would not be a
problem.
BTW, the main reason that we have women in any number in the military
is due to the end of the draft and the need for manpower. When I
joined very few women were in the ranks as they could fill the ranks
with draftees.
Yes, the military does require duty on Sabbot. But in most cases,
unless you are in combat, you will generally have weekends free
(occasional staff duty of course). Remember I have 30 years of
experience with the military. Most Americans, especially Jews, have
had little contact. It is very easy for most Americans to assume
things that are very untrue about military life.
With a few key rabbis already in our ranks, it will be easier to
recruit cHaredi once we have created the right climate.
cindys
wrote:
snip
>
> Because of discussions with Chaplains like CH (MAJ) Felzenberg and CH
> happens. What we are not getting are Reform or Conservative Jews,
> especially as chaplains.
The operative word here is CHAPLAINS.
>
> As for the food, that is where the goal of having our DFACs become
> kosher military wide.
So, every military base will have a dedicated kosher kitchen, separate
from the treif dining facility, with glatt kosher meat, only accepting
certain hechsherim, and with a mashgiach temidi (a kosher supervisor
who is in constant attendance), who is the only person who is allowed
to have a key? I have a bridge in Brooklyn...
> The push is due to the military trying to deal
> with Muslims such that by becoming kosher they also meet Islamic
> standards. And if enough Jews enlist then a minyan would not be a
> problem.
And again, a married man and his wife and family are not going to
subsist on Meal Mart TV dinners for five or six years or whatever is
the length of enlistment. That's the reality.
>
> BTW, the main reason that we have women in any number in the military
> is due to the end of the draft and the need for manpower. When I
> joined very few women were in the ranks as they could fill the ranks
> with draftees.
And the women in the army is only one of many deal-breakers for the
chareidim, as I said. That's one of the reasons that the chareidim
stay away from the IDF. It is ossur (forbidden) for them to be around
women.
>
> Yes, the military does require duty on Sabbot.
I rest my case.
>But in most cases,
> unless you are in combat, you will generally have weekends free
> (occasional staff duty of course).
"In most cases..." You write these words as if this were a big
nothing. To chareidim, shabbos is everything. Why can't you seem to
understand that? What could possibly motivate them to join the army
when they know they are going to have to be mechallel shabbos (sabbath
violators). From what you've written above, you apparently seem to
think that it's not such a big deal to violate shabbos once in a
while, as long as it's not every week. Maybe it's not a big deal for
you. But what would make a chareidi Jew want to do that?
What is it that you think is so attractive about the US Army that
chareidi Jews would think it's worth being mechallel shabbos in order
to join? Why would they think it's worth living on Meal Meat for six
years in order to be able to join? Why would they think it's worth
foregoing a Jewish school for their children? Why would they think
it's worth making their wives live in misery on some army base?
foregoing their communities? and their learning? and their minyanim?
Why would they deliberately put themselves in an environment where
they have to desperately try to scrape together ten Jewish men for a
makeshift minyan when they can stay right in Brooklyn and choose from
dozens of minyanim on any given day all within blocks of each other?
And for that matter, why in God's name would the US Army have any
interest at all in recruiting chareidim who with all their special
needs would be chronic pains-in-the-asses? The US Army doesn't need
this. They're not looking for this.
And as far as your Chabad chaplain is concerned, I would be willing to
bet that he and the other rabbi never said at all that the US Army
wants to recruit chareidi Jews. In fact, my best guess would be they
probably said just the opposite. You have a reputation on this group
for claiming people and media articles say exactly the opposite of
what they actually say (once someone finds the source and reads the
actual articles).
>Remember I have 30 years of
> experience with the military.
And virtually no experience with chareidi Jews.
>Most Americans, especially Jews, have
> had little contact. It is very easy for most Americans to assume
> things that are very untrue about military life.
And which part of what I wrote about military life is untrue?
>
> With a few key rabbis already in our ranks, it will be easier to
> recruit cHaredi once we have created the right climate.
What "climate" would that be?" Ft. Lakewood? Ft. Borough Park? This is
really the stuff of fairy tales. The reality is that you're not going
to be recruiting any chareidim, guaranteed, and I can't imagine what
stretch of the imagination would make you think so. And what "key
rabbis" do you think will join your ranks? Maybe R' Dovid Schustal or
R' Belsky?
Give me a flippin' break.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
Yet, for all of your arguements, we are seeing Chabad folks in the
ranks. And a few Aish HaTorah.
As for a kosher kitchen, often that happens in the chapel. With more
orthodox chaplains then it would be common at every base. Chaplains
like MAJ Felzenberg are able to get kosher food via the military
stores (he did so at Ft Bragg). You would be surprised at how willing
the military is to help. I would say that the Army seems to be the
most willing and the Air Force the least. The commisary at Ft Bragg
even carried kosher meat (Gatt of course). And one can get meat
shipped in, St Louis has such a service. Even in a combat zone it was
possible to get kosher food (much of the commerical food is kosher),
use raw food from the DFAC and then have meat shipped to you as well.
The Army seems to be the most willing to work with officers (better to
be an officer when it comes to religion) to make allowances for
faith. At this point the key is getting more chaplains who will make
it possible to make the changes we need.
Dvora
Re: Good news: haredi enlistment in IDF up!
Group: soc.culture.jewish.moderated Date: Fri, May 7, 2010, 12:43am
(EDT+4) From: abek...@gmail.com (Abe Kohen)
news:4838ed55-887d-48a3...@t15g2000vbo.googlegroups.com...
On May 6, 8:58 am, sheldonlg <sheldo...@giganews.com> wrote:
On 5/6/2010 8:49 AM, Jay J wrote:
From A-7:
4. Hareidi Jews' IDF Enlistment Rises Tenfold in Two Years by Gil Ronen
The Shachar program for enlistment of hareidi-religious men to the IDF
has seen a sharp rise in popularity in the three years since it began:
from 40 hareidi conscripts in 2007, to 200 the next year, to 400 in
2009.
The number of hareidi men expected to join the IDF through the program
is expected to reach 1,000 this calendar year.
To be fair, at kom hamdina (Glickler teitch: independence), haredi men
and women served in the IDF and its precursors.
In particular I get a kick out of my Haredi aunt in Boro Park, who while
she was not then Haredi, served in the Israeli Air Force and also took
part in the pre-Independence struggle. Not bad for a Holocaust survivor.
Best,
Abe
Shalom From Dvora --
- give without remembering --
and -- take without forgetting -
Jay J
> To be fair, at kom hamdina (Glickler teitch: independence), haredi men
> and women served in the IDF and its precursors.
> =
They most certainly did. And for years thereafter, with minimal
friction between them and the secular boys. This was done under the
agreement reached with Ben Gurion, whereby a few dozen haredim
received exemptions from the military in order to study. I served with
some of them. There were no problems, and there was mutual respect,
It was Begin (in 1977 and thereafter) who changed the agreement and
gave the haredim mass exemption from military duty.
Jay
sheldonlg
Cindy, what you have been saying here makes sense about Charedim and the
US Army and I don't disagree. The question I ask is if anyone knows
what happened when there was a draft (as with Vietnam) and they were
called to serve?
--
Shelly
cindys
1. You haven't addressed the other points I made, the shabbos/yom tov
issue being a major one. As I said, my friend's rabbi told him that
there was no way he would ever convince any (rightwing O) rabbi to
give him a heter (permission) to join the army at the present time
because the USA is not being threatened, and there is absolutely
nothing to justify his deliberately placing himself in a situation
where he knows ahead of time he will be expected to be mechallel
shabbos (violate shabbos). Not to mention all the other stuff. Thank
God, it's not as if we are in the middle of WWII.
2. But, again, the main point is: The USA has a population of how many
people? What is your obsession with wanting chareidi Jews to join the
US military? I could see if someone wanted to maybe increase the ranks
of secular Jews in the US Army. Great. But why in the world would
somebody be targeting chareidim of all people? (Is the army also
ostensibly itching to recruit Buddhist Monks :-) There are dozens of
other groups who don't have dozens of special requirements and would
be far less trouble. But it's a moot point because as I said, I don't
think the US Army is looking to recruit chareidi Jews at all. I think
this is nothing more than a product of your fertile imagination.
3. And here's something else I know: Recruiters have an extremely
stressful job. And a high suicide rate because of the pressure to meet
their quotas. The Army expects them to meet a quota. In consideration
of that fact, it makes sense for them to spend their time and efforts
trying to recruit people whom they actually have a shot at recruiting,
who would be interested in the perks and incentives that the army has
to offer. Why in God's name would any recruiter in his right mind
waste his valuable time trying to recruit chareidi Jews? What exactly
does the Army have to offer a chareidi Jew by way of perks and
incentives that would entice this Jew to be mechallel shabbos and
mechallel yom tov and give up his minyan, yeshiva, learning, Jewish
education for his children, community, 90% of the inherent lifestyle
of a chareidi Jew ? The answer is: Nothing at all.
I suggest you go back and reformulate your position again and come up
with yet another "argument" because two posts ago, you were
proclaiming that the only thing preventing chareidim from joining the
US Army was the requirement to be clean shaven, (and the Chabad
chaplain ostensibly agreed with you!) Right.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Jay J
OF COURSE the army would want Chabadniks in the service... Chabad
could establish Chabad houses all over Afghanistan! They've been
successful everywhere else they tried, so why not there? They will
offer an alternative to the Taliban, and since they all have beards
anyway, they might confuse the population into attending Chabad (at
least during the holidays and Bar Mitzvahs) ) instead of their
mosques.
(ducking)
Jay
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
Actually there is one Jew left in Afghanistan. He is hidding out
because he does not want to give his wife a divorce back in Israel.
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
Jews tend to be officers, not enlisted, these days. Lots of West
Point grads who are Jewish. Jewish officers tend to go into Special
Forces, the Intel community or medicine. Thus the pressures you speak
of are not the same.
Israel brings everyone into their ranks as a private, like the Germans
do. Thus every private could become a general. In the US Army we
have a class system where you can enter either as a private or as an
officer.
We need the cHaredi mostly as chaplains, for now. But their language
skills would also be of great value. The fact that most cHaredi are
tri-lingual by the time they are in Junior High is of great value. It
means that they could learn Arabic or other languages quickly.
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
Back then there was an exemption for those who were religious,
especially those studying for roles in "ministry".
The greatest cross selection was during WW2 when one out of three were
drafted (same percentages up thru Vietnam but more exemptions).
Modern Jews just do not serve like their grandparents did during WW2.
cindys
wrote:
>
> Jews tend to be officers, not enlisted, these days. Lots of West
> Point grads who are Jewish.
But they're not chareidim.
>Jewish officers tend to go into Special
> Forces, the Intel community or medicine. Thus the pressures you speak
> of are not the same.
And they're not chareidim.
>
> Israel brings everyone into their ranks as a private, like the Germans
> do. Thus every private could become a general. In the US Army we
> have a class system where you can enter either as a private or as an
> officer.
But they're not chareidim. Even the chaplains are not chareidim.
>
> We need the cHaredi mostly as chaplains, for now.
I don't think you do, actually.
>But their language
> skills would also be of great value.
What language skills? You mean Yiddish and Aramaic?
>The fact that most cHaredi are
> tri-lingual by the time they are in Junior High is of great value.
Don't think so.
> It
> means that they could learn Arabic or other languages quickly.
Highly questionable. But I'm sure there are plenty of skilled
linguists who could be sold on the army much easier than the
chareidim. The chareidim wouldn't want to spend six years on an army
base in the USA much less be deployed to an Arab country.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Giorgies E Kepipesiom
There was the 2D status (or was it 4D? I've forgotten). It was a
defeerment for divinity students. In theory, once ordained they were
supposed to enlist and become chaplains, but few did. During the
height of Viet Nam, numerous yeshivas opened their doors and
registered haredi (as well as many non-haredi orthodox) youth so they
could get the defferment. Most of these "draft-yeshiva" students never
actually got semicha. I myself had no need for such defferment. I was
a South African citizen, here on a succession of temporary visas, and
not susceptible to the draft. I did obtain permanent resident status
in 1969, while the war was still going, but by then I was nearly 35
and married, thus unlikely to be drafted in any case. But vary many of
my friends who were not eligible for 2S avoided the draft with the 24
(4D?) defferment.
GEK
whishing all a good Shabbos
lee
Wouldnt Charedi soldiers require an eruv around combat zones on
shabbos.
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
Cindy, most Americans have huge problems learning languages. Most of
the skilled folks are native speakers, often foreign born which brings
other problems. The largest pool of linguists are Mormons due to
their missionary duties. What we have in the orthodox community are
children learning a second language ages 3 to 5 (Hebrew) with Aramaic
ages 10 to 13. Any kid who I can get to their third languge by junior
high is more than able to learn any language out there, especially
Arabic which is just too foreign for most Americans.
As for chaplains, a large portion of the current chaplains are cHaredi
(Chabad and Aish HaTorah). We are not seeing many Reform or
Conservatives these days (used to).
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
Every base or FOB has a wall around it. In fact most US bases and
forts are fenced in thus an Eruv.
Abe Kohen
I don't know where you are getting the 1977 date or why you are blaming
Begin.
There were very few Haredim who served in the early 70s when Golda was PM.
There were so few that those who did serve were often called Fishke after
some character in a popular play or movie.
Kippot srugot and hesdernikim are a different matter.
Shavua Tov,
Abe
cindys
Not in the chareidi community. They learn Chumash which is biblical
Hebrew, no modern Hebrew. Then, they learn mishnaic Hebrew. Modern
Hebrew is generally not part of the American chareidi curriculum,
certainly not in any meaningful way.
>with Aramaic
> ages 10 to 13.
Aramaic is not a spoken language, and the Aramaic of the talmud is not
pure Aramaic. And FTR, a number of American chareidim barely speak
English.
>Any kid who I can get to their third languge by junior
> high is more than able to learn any language out there, especially
> Arabic which is just too foreign for most Americans.
>
> As for chaplains, a large portion of the current chaplains are cHaredi
> (Chabad and Aish HaTorah).
That's because Chabad and Aish are groups which are specifically
focused on Jewish outreach. But you don't see other chareidim rushing
to become army chaplains do you? And they won't. And in the beginning
of this subthread, you weren't talking about chaplains, you were
talking about chareidim joining the army in general, and you were
insisting that chareidim would be eager to join in the army, if only
the army would be willing to compromise on the no-beards rule. But as
I have already explained to you, the no-beards rule is a big nothing
compared to all the other compromises that the chareidim would need to
make, if they wanted to join the army, which they don't. And beyond a
handful of chaplains (maybe), the US Army doesn't want or need
chareidi Jews in its ranks either. This is just something that is in
your own head. If the army really does have a shortage of Jewish
chaplains, their resources would be put to much better use to focus on
C or R rabbis who would be more flexible and easier to recruit.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
Thus an eruv? You are a halachic authority on this subject then I take
it? That's amazing! The rabbi of an Orthodox synagogue in my
community, with his yorah yorah yadin yadin semicha, wouldn't touch
that subject with a ten-foot pole (no pun intended), and whenever he
has a question about our local eruv, he phones a rabbi in another city
who specializes in the laws of eruvin. I'll have to let our local
rabbi know that in the future, if he has more questions about our
eruv, he can consult with you, and he won't have to bother the other
rabbi.
And FTR, Lee was asking about combat zones. Are domestic army bases
considered combat zones?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
There are other requirements for Eruv but that it completely "walls
in" an area is part of it. There are lots of other requirements but
what most military bases have would be a good start.
As for combat zones, the walls are more like an old walled city thus
very much within the requirements for Eruv.
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
C and R rabbis would not want the cut in pay to be chaplain. Chabad
and Aish HaTorah are cHaredi and possibly the largest populations
within cHaredim.
As for language training, Latin and ancient Greek are very good at
preparing you to learn European languages. The Hebrew of the Torah or
Aramiac would likewise prepare you to learn Arabic. The real key is
that a child learns early within life two or more languages. If that
can be done before age 13 then you have the beginnings of good
linquist. Most people lose the ability to learn languages by age 13
so early training is of great importance. It is the shaping fo the
mind that is important, not the language in particular.
mm
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> As for the food, that is where the goal of having our DFACs become
>> kosher military wide.
>
>So, every military base will have a dedicated kosher kitchen, separate
>from the treif dining facility, with glatt kosher meat, only accepting
>certain hechsherim, and with a mashgiach temidi (a kosher supervisor
>who is in constant attendance), who is the only person who is allowed
>to have a key? I have a bridge in Brooklyn...
Not only that, every military base should have some Yiddish theatre
too. They don't. That's why I didn't join.
--
Meir
"The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
mm
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
>What is it that you think is so attractive about the US Army that
>chareidi Jews would think it's worth being mechallel shabbos in order
>to join? Why would they think it's worth living on Meal Meat for six
>years in order to be able to join? Why would they think it's worth
>foregoing a Jewish school for their children? Why would they think
>it's worth making their wives live in misery on some army base?
>foregoing their communities? and their learning? and their minyanim?
>Why would they deliberately put themselves in an environment where
>they have to desperately try to scrape together ten Jewish men for a
>makeshift minyan when they can stay right in Brooklyn and choose from
>dozens of minyanim on any given day all within blocks of each other?
To see the world. In the army they get more done by 9 than most
people do all day. When you heard that slogan, you probably didn't
realize that the 9 were the 9 other men in the minyan.
What they could do is save up all the Shabbosim each week and all the
Yom Tovim and observe them during the 2 weeks of R&R, or at the end of
the enlistment, whichever was more convenient. (The army is nothing
if it's not convenient for its soldiers.) Just like people in
private industry who accrue one vacation day for every 5 weeks of
work, and then use them all in a row during the summer. This seems
like a simple solution to me.
mm
wrote:
>
>
>
>OF COURSE the army would want Chabadniks in the service... Chabad
>could establish Chabad houses all over Afghanistan! They've been
>successful everywhere else they tried, so why not there? They will
>offer an alternative to the Taliban, and since they all have beards
>anyway, they might confuse the population into attending Chabad (at
>least during the holidays and Bar Mitzvahs) ) instead of their
>mosques.
>
>(ducking)
>
>Jay
>
Finally, a really good idea.
mm
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>>But their language
>> skills would also be of great value.
>
>What language skills? You mean Yiddish and Aramaic?
Absolutely. Both the Arameans and the Bablylonians are known to be a
growing security risk for the USA. I'm not talking abou the Iraqis,
but specifically the Bablylonian minority that has spread to
Afghan-Pak, India, Indo-China, and Hawaii.
mm
wrote:
>
>
>Wouldnt Charedi soldiers require an eruv around combat zones on
>shabbos.
Absolutely, but not a problem. The problem in the civilian world is
getting someone to build it and someone to check it.
In the military, on Thursday or Friday, depending on how big a battle
is planned, the Chareidi captain just says to the Chareidi privates,
"Privates, build an eruv." It's the army. People take orders. The
captain will have already requisiitioned the materials needed and
he'll make sure they're done by 2 so he can inspect it. If they're
not done until later, he'll requisition a helicopter.
mm
I think they tended to stay in school until they were over 26. The
army didnt' draft people older than 26 unless they had made an
arrangement in advance, like my brohter did.
My brother graduated medical school when he was 24 (He had skipped the
first grade) and to avoid being drafted right after his one-year
internship, he made an agreement with them that he would go in after
his residency, when he was 28, 4 years later. He spent a year in Viet
Nam and a year near Boston, and then he was done. He was a captain
in the inactive reserve until the first year started, when he was a
captain, and he was promoted to major sometime during those two years.
It sort of amazes me that my brother was a major, but it would have
amazed me more if he were Charedi.
a they had special skills
cindys
Is that so? You are not a posek (halachic decisor). You are not a
rabbi. You have never been to yeshiva. You don't have any business
making halachic pronouncements in areas where you have zero
knowledge.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
I think not.
>
> As for language training, Latin and ancient Greek are very good at
> preparing you to learn European languages.
>The Hebrew of the Torah or
> Aramiac would likewise prepare you to learn Arabic.
And why would any chareidim be interested in learning Arabic? I think
most of them would consider that a classic example of bitul torah
(loosely: wasting time doing other things that could have been spent
learning torah).
> The real key is
> that a child learns early within life two or more languages. If that
> can be done before age 13 then you have the beginnings of good
> linguist. Most people lose the ability to learn languages by age 13
> so early training is of great importance. It is the shaping fo the
> mind that is important, not the language in particular.
The real key is that there is no reason in the world why chareidim
would be interested in joining the US Army for all the reasons I cited
earlier. They don't want to be mechallel shabbos, they don't want to
give up yeshiva, minyan, their communities, Jewish schools for their
children. They wouldn't want to force their wives to live on an army
base amongst non-Jews, away from their communities, Jewish schools for
their children etc.
Chabad rabbis consider it their calling in life to go to remote
outposts and do outreach to fellow Jews, so maybe that's why some of
them become army chaplains, but other chareidim have zero interest in
doing this. The army recruits people by providing them with career
training and a college education as part of the incentive package.
Chareidim are not looking for this. So, what does the army have to
offer them that would be so compelling that they would give up years
of their lives to live in the totally foreign environment of an army
base? Absolutely nothing. But that's okay, because as I said before,
the US Army is not looking to recruit chareidim. If your Chabad rabbi
agreed with you that they were, he was probably just being polite.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
> On Sat, 8 May 2010 21:22:06 +0000 (UTC), lee <schotn...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >Wouldnt Charedi soldiers require an eruv around combat zones on
> >shabbos.
>
> Absolutely, but not a problem. The problem in the civilian world is
> getting someone to build it and someone to check it.
>
> In the military, on Thursday or Friday, depending on how big a battle
> is planned, the Chareidi captain just says to the Chareidi privates,
> "Privates, build an eruv." It's the army. People take orders. The
> captain will have already requisiitioned the materials needed and
> he'll make sure they're done by 2 so he can inspect it. If they're
> not done until later, he'll requisition a helicopter.
Lol! All your follow-ups were funny, but this one was the best :-)
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
mm
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>and a college education as part of the incentive package.
>Chareidim are not looking for this.
You fail to consider that Chareidi is actually
a respelling of Char.A.D. Doctor of Charrowing Adventure.
Do you know how much it costs in tuition and fees to get such a
doctorate, plus the higher than average costs for the field work.
If the GI Bill can help out, I think they would gladly take advantage
of it.
mm
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
>2. But, again, the main point is: The USA has a population of how many
>people? What is your obsession with wanting chareidi Jews to join the
>US military? I could see if someone wanted to maybe increase the ranks
>of secular Jews in the US Army. Great. But why in the world would
>somebody be targeting chareidim of all people? (Is the army also
>ostensibly itching to recruit Buddhist Monks :-) There are dozens of
>other groups who don't have dozens of special requirements and would
>be far less trouble.
How about if the Chareidim became border guards along the Mexican
border? If they could make a community in Postville Iowa, they could
have a long thin community along the border. And they could ride
horses. That sounds like fun.
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
> On Fri, 7 May 2010 06:06:49 +0000 (UTC), cindys
>
actually you are not that far off. Yes there are those, like the
Airborne, who live at their desks with little time for family. Yet I
would say that the military puts more time aside for families than the
typical civilian job (a college educated worker can easily expect 70
to 80 hour work weeks in industry). In garrison one will be up at 5
am for PT, start work at 9 and be off by 4. That does not include
taking time off to take the kids to the doctor or other things. In
some ways I wonder how the military gets anything done due to so many
troops being pulled away from work. Thursdays are Sergeant times with
the afternoon being off for family time. Friday is a short day and
the weekends are free unless you have staff duty. There there is 30
days of leave each year.
The only time you have to do long days is in the field. In that case
you are away from home for 30 days (90 days per year for field
training in an infantry unit).
And you were right about being able to construct a field Eruv. Wire
for commo is always handy. And troops for stringing it. In fact you
would have wire out around your field position anyway in order to
connect all of the field phones at the OPs (observation posts). In a
long term setting like a FOB in Iraq or Afghanistan, one would have
not only a fence but often a very thick wall (often sand bags) around
the encampment which would be more like the ancient walled cities.
There is a lot of time for study, the military actually encourages its
troops to study. College is available, for example with time allowed
to go to classes. Thus one might actually have more time for study,
paid, in the military than as a civilian.
cindys
wrote:
I don't think you're listening. "Staff duty" on Saturdays is a
problem. This would be completely unacceptable to chareidim. It
doesn't matter if it's only once per year. Violating shabbos for any
reason other than pikuach nefesh (immediate danger to life) is
completely forbidden.
>
> The only time you have to do long days is in the field. In that case
> you are away from home for 30 days (90 days per year for field
> training in an infantry unit).
>
> And you were right about being able to construct a field Eruv.
He was making a joke.
>Wire
> for commo is always handy. And troops for stringing it. In fact you
> would have wire out around your field position anyway in order to
> connect all of the field phones at the OPs (observation posts). In a
> long term setting like a FOB in Iraq or Afghanistan, one would have
> not only a fence but often a very thick wall (often sand bags) around
> the encampment which would be more like the ancient walled cities.
And again. The halachos of eruvin are very complicated and left to the
authority of a handful of expects. The average chareidi rabbi would
not attempt to build an eruv on his own, yet you are detailing on SCJM
something you are making up and trying to pass off as a legitimate
eruv. Again, you don't know the first thing about creating an eruv, so
stop playing rabbi.
>
> There is a lot of time for study, the military actually encourages its
> troops to study. College is available, for example with time allowed
> to go to classes.
Which chareidim are interested in going to college?
> Thus one might actually have more time for study,
> paid, in the military than as a civilian.
But no minyan, no frum community, no yeshiva, no Jewish schools for
the children, inappropriate contact with women, hard-to-come-by kosher
food, and most of all, the potential for staff duty on shabbos or yom
tov.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Asher N
news:478824b7-ec16-44d5...@h9g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
> On May 8, 10:36�ｿｽpm, cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>> On May 8, 7:08�ｿｽpm, "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <omega....@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On May 7, 12:49�ｿｽpm, cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > On May 7, 12:37�ｿｽpm, "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <omega....@gmail.com>
>> > > wrote:
>>
>> > > > Jews tend to be officers, not enlisted, these days. �ｿｽLots of
>> > > > West Point grads who are Jewish. �ｿｽ
>>
>> > > But they're not chareidim.
>>
>> > > >Jewish officers tend to go into Special
>> > > > Forces, the Intel community or medicine. �ｿｽThus the pressures
>> > > > you
> speak
>> > > > of are not the same.
>>
>> > > And they're not chareidim.
>>
>> > > > Israel brings everyone into their ranks as a private, like the
>> > > > Germ
> ans
>> > > > do. �ｿｽThus every private could become a general. �ｿｽIn the US Army
> we
>> > > > have a class system where you can enter either as a private or
>> > > > as a
> n
>> > > > officer.
>>
>> > > But they're not chareidim. Even the chaplains are not chareidim.
>>
>> > > > We need the cHaredi mostly as chaplains, for now. �ｿｽ
>>
>> > > I don't think you do, actually.
>>
>> > > >But their language
>> > > > skills would also be of great value. �ｿｽ
>>
>> > > What language skills? You mean Yiddish and Aramaic?
>>
>> > > >The fact that most cHaredi are
>> > > > tri-lingual by the time they are in Junior High is of great
>> > > > value.
>>
>> > > Don't think so.
>>
>> > > >�ｿｽIt
>> > > > means that they could learn Arabic or other languages quickly.
>>
>> > > Highly questionable. But I'm sure there are plenty of skilled
>> > > linguists who could be sold on the army much easier than the
>> > > chareidim. The chareidim wouldn't want to spend six years on an
>> > > army base in the USA much less be deployed to an Arab country.
>> > > Best regards,
>> > > ---Cindy S.
>>
>> > Cindy, most Americans have huge problems learning languages. �ｿｽMost
>> > of the skilled folks are native speakers, often foreign born which
>> > brings other problems. �ｿｽThe largest pool of linguists are Mormons
>> > due to their missionary duties. �ｿｽWhat we have in the orthodox
>> > community are children learning a second language ages 3 to 5
>> > (Hebrew)
>>
>> Not in the chareidi community. They learn Chumash which is biblical
>> Hebrew, no modern Hebrew. Then, they learn mishnaic Hebrew. Modern
>> Hebrew is generally not part of the American chareidi curriculum,
>> certainly not in any meaningful way.
>>
>> >with Aramaic
>> > ages 10 to 13. �ｿｽ
>>
>> Aramaic is not a spoken language, and the Aramaic of the talmud is
>> not pure Aramaic. And FTR, a number of American chareidim barely
>> speak English.
>>
>> >Any kid who I can get to their third languge by junior
>> > high is more than able to learn any language out there, especially
>> > Arabic which is just too foreign for most Americans.
>>
>> > As for chaplains, a large portion of the current chaplains are
>> > cHaredi (Chabad and Aish HaTorah). �ｿｽ
One does not follow the other. I was fluent in both French and English by
the time I entered HS. I tried to learn Spanidh in HS and could not. It's
not the knowing of languages, it's how early you learn them, or if you
have a predisposition to learn languages in your later years.
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
> "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <omega....@gmail.com> wrote innews:478824b7-ec16-44d5...@h9g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 8, 10:36 pm, cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> >> On May 8, 7:08 pm, "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <omega....@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> > On May 7, 12:49 pm, cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >> > > On May 7, 12:37 pm, "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <omega....@gmail.com>
> >> > > wrote:
>
> >> > > > Jews tend to be officers, not enlisted, these days. Lots of
> >> > > > West Point grads who are Jewish.
>
>
> >> > > >Jewish officers tend to go into Special
> >> > > > you
> > speak
> >> > > > of are not the same.
>
> >> > > And they're not chareidim.
>
> >> > > > Israel brings everyone into their ranks as a private, like the
> >> > > > Germ
> > ans
> > we
> >> > > > have a class system where you can enter either as a private or
> >> > > > as a
> > n
> >> > > > officer.
>
> >> > > But they're not chareidim. Even the chaplains are not chareidim.
>
> >> > > > We need the cHaredi mostly as chaplains, for now.
>
>
> >> > > >But their language
> >> > > > skills would also be of great value.
>
>
> >> > > >The fact that most cHaredi are
> >> > > > tri-lingual by the time they are in Junior High is of great
> >> > > > value.
>
> >> > > Don't think so.
>
> >> > > > means that they could learn Arabic or other languages quickly.
>
> >> > > Highly questionable. But I'm sure there are plenty of skilled
> >> > > linguists who could be sold on the army much easier than the
> >> > > chareidim. The chareidim wouldn't want to spend six years on an
> >> > > army base in the USA much less be deployed to an Arab country.
> >> > > Best regards,
> >> > > ---Cindy S.
>
> >> > of the skilled folks are native speakers, often foreign born which
> >> > due to their missionary duties. What we have in the orthodox
> >> > community are children learning a second language ages 3 to 5
> >> > (Hebrew)
>
> >> Not in the chareidi community. They learn Chumash which is biblical
> >> Hebrew, no modern Hebrew. Then, they learn mishnaic Hebrew. Modern
> >> Hebrew is generally not part of the American chareidi curriculum,
> >> certainly not in any meaningful way.
>
> >> >with Aramaic
> >> > ages 10 to 13.
>
> >> not pure Aramaic. And FTR, a number of American chareidim barely
> >> speak English.
>
> >> >Any kid who I can get to their third languge by junior
> >> > high is more than able to learn any language out there, especially
> >> > Arabic which is just too foreign for most Americans.
>
> >> > As for chaplains, a large portion of the current chaplains are
> >> > cHaredi (Chabad and Aish HaTorah).
>
The military has found that the earlier a child is exposed to the
second language (about ages 3 to 5 works well), the easier it is pick
up languages later. Once a person becomes tri-lingual, it is even
easier to learn languages. Look at how many in Europe are multi-
lingual.
Abe Kohen
"Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <omeg...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:599a197e-2cac-48af-9674-
The military has found that the earlier a child is exposed to the
second language (about ages 3 to 5 works well), the easier it is pick
up languages later.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Abe: Doesn't explain why so many UO Yeshiva types can't speak proper
English.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Once a person becomes tri-lingual, it is even
easier to learn languages. Look at how many in Europe are multi-
lingual.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Abe: Yep, they're all a bunch of cunning linguists.
cindys
> "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <omega....@gmail.com> wrote in message
Lol.
Best regards,
---Cindy S,
Yussel
I'm curious what they did when there was a draft during WW 2. I don't
kinow.
Jj
cindys
snip
> The military has found that the earlier a child is exposed to the
> second language (about ages 3 to 5 works well), the easier it is pick
> up languages later. Once a person becomes tri-lingual, it is even
> easier to learn languages. Look at how many in Europe are multi-
> lingual.
Maybe some of those people could be recruited for the US Army. I've
heard that a lot of the Norwegians already speak fluent Arabic.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
snip
>
> I'm curious what they did when there was a draft during WW 2. I don't
-----
Just my personal thought ---
I don't know either, but I think chareidim *in America* is a mostly
post-WWII phenomenon. Most of the Jews who lived in the USA before the
war were the children of immigrants who had emigrated at the turn of
the century and tended to be quite assimilated, and so, being
mechallel shabbos etc didn't really present a problem for them. My
father a"h and all my uncles a"h fit this description, and they all
served in the US Army during WWII.
The bulk of the chareidim had stayed in Europe and eventually died in
the camps. Alan Dershowitz wrote a book about Chabad Lubavitch (can't
recall the title, but I think it was written circa early 1990s), and
in the book he mentions that if you look at a family portrait of three
generations of American Jews, you will see the secular Jew, the srugie
Jew, and the black hat Jew. The secular Jew is the grandfather who
came from the old country, the srugie Jew is his son, and the black
hat Jew is the grandson. Dershowitz made the point that it was the
secular Jews who ensured the continuity of the Jewish people because
they were the ones who had the moxie to immigrate to America at the
turn of the century. The frummie Jews all maintained the status quo
and stayed behind in Europe.
After the war, the yeshiva learning and lifestyle that had previously
thrived in Lita and been crushed, was resurrected in the USA (and in
Eretz Yisrael) on a far grander scale than had ever been known in
Lita, and this has evolved over the years. I'm not sure exactly when
the ba'al teshuva movement began, but I think it was in the late 1970s
or maybe in the early 1980s.
I would also suspect that whatever ultra-frum Jews there were living
in the USA during WWII probably did get exemptions on the same basis
as those who were exempted from going to Viet Nam.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
Yeah, they are called Muslims who are setting up colonies in Europe.
mm
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>The bulk of the chareidim had stayed in Europe and eventually died in
>the camps. Alan Dershowitz wrote a book about Chabad Lubavitch (can't
>recall the title, but I think it was written circa early 1990s), and
>in the book he mentions that if you look at a family portrait of three
>generations of American Jews, you will see the secular Jew, the srugie
>Jew, and the black hat Jew. The secular Jew is the grandfather who
>came from the old country, the srugie Jew is his son, and the black
>hat Jew is the grandson. Dershowitz made the point that it was the
>secular Jews who ensured the continuity of the Jewish people because
>they were the ones who had the moxie to immigrate to America at the
>turn of the century. The frummie Jews all maintained the status quo
>and stayed behind in Europe.
He really said this! Maybe it fits his family or friends' families.
Does he know what secular means?
I think the secular Jew was not very likely to have a srugie child**.
Some I'm sure, but not that many.
Much more likely were the Jews who belonged to O, C, and R
congregations, but especially O and C. Regarding O, there were and
still can be seen a lot of Jews who worked on Shabbes because their
bosses insisted on it, and maybe kept doing it after they had their
own business, and who stopped doing other things they should, but I
think it was the observant and less obvservant O who kept the O shuls
running and other O organizations, like the OU founded in 1898, and
who implied, "Regardless of what I myself do, this is the right way to
do it", who did the most to ensure continuity, both with the
institutions and instilling in later directions the idea that "this is
the right way to do it".
**Someone who wears a kippah s'rugah, a knitted kippah, which in
practice means modern Orthodox.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> sheldonlg <sheldo...@giganews.com> wrote:
>> Jay J wrote:
snip the good news Jay posted.
>>> Shel: What you say is true, but it's still good news. All
>>> beginings are modest.
snip
>> I _did_say it was encouraging. But it is similar to the good news
>> that unemployment has stopped climbing. In both there is a
>> looooong way to go.
>
> and you are absolutely correct. But is is a big step forward. There
> are also some problems here which most people are not aware of. These
> men been indoctrinated into a life of learning and not working in the
I would say "taught".
> belief that their learning is the highest value and that they save the
> nation by their study and prayer. The term often used is "Neheragim
> be'ohala shel Torah" -- they are being killed in the tent of the
> Torah. This term is often used after a war, when their rabbis use it
> to say that they, too, sacrifice, albeit not on the physical front but
> on the spiritual one. They have no problem living on charity, because
> this is what the secular Jews are supposed to do -- support their
> learning brethren.
I wouldn't say "secular Jews" but rather jews who work full time.
My charity money goes there too.
> Second, there are wars within the haredi world. For every haredi rabbi
> who tells his flock that they should go and serve in the IDF, or learn
> a useful civilian trade, there is another haredi rabbi who will tell
> them that they sin gravely by associating with the illegal Zionist
> entity which set up a Zionist state against the express wishes of God.
No. That is an extreme anti-Zionist position which is held only the
Netirei Karta.
> They'll find the appropriate quote for it. So often these men need to
> decide whom to listen to, and there are conflicts within communities
> and within families. OTOH, there are many haredim who work, support
> their families, succeed, and know how to navigate the dangerous divide
> between the haredi world and the secular world. They are no less
> devout that the perennial students, and they enforce the rabbis who
> tell their people to go to work.
Hello, my name is Moshe.
> They have a huge problem with the secular world. They have been taught
At least this time you didn't say "indoctrinated", good.
> that the secular press is full of lies, especially about them;
For a ceratin definition of "lies", that's true. We have an on-going
thread about when do "misrepresentations" = "lies".
Let's put it this way, if a secular Israeli is accused of a crime,
the press will not mention "secular". If it's a religious Israeli
the press _will_ mention "religious".
> their own press will gloss over or outright ignore any negative
> news about the haredi world
That is true.
> (some of the haredi press is now ignoring the fact that former
> Mayor Lupoliansky of Jerusalem, a haredi, is highly implicated in
> the Holyland bribery scandal and has been under house arrest).
> They are taught that the secular world is full of temptations
> that will corrupt them or their kids (TV, the internet, the cinema,
> etc.)
That is true. That is what they are taught, and it's true.
> that Satan lurks in order to tempt them from a good and righteous
> life, and that the Zionist police and courts are out to get
> them. For them, these are very real threats.
Again, it is true that they are taught this and it's very
unfortunately true. I forget the name of the Supreme Court judge who
called all chareidi "parasites". But I do remember the the Cheif
Justice Aaron Barak was there and made no reprimand. I would be
terrified if I were to be a defendent in an Israeli court.
> Above all, when they do take what is for them a very courageous and
> daring step and go out to the world, they usually continue their
> studies (much like the haredim in NY, who travel to and from 47th
> Street in Manhattan on a school bus and study while they're
> traveling). I have studied while working full time. It's tough. For
> them, there is no question that they HAVE to continue studying, tired
> or not, because that's where their life source is, and it's their very
> being. I imagine there is a lot of worrying and insomnia when someone
> has refrained from studying on a given day because he was too
> exhausted.
Thank you for this honest appraisal. (See? I can judge what you
write and agree when it's correct.)
> I'm not going to go into their politics and politicians, with which
> I vehemently disagree.
I wouldn't say "vehemently disagree" but I don't always agree either.
> But when you hear that 400 haredim have gone out into the world,
> where they may learn that not all seculars eat young O kids for
> breakfast,
I know that's a hyperbole and so do you. And unfortunately, many
think that religious eat secular kids for breakfast.
> it's a huge step forward.
>
> Sorry for rambling on.
Don't be. You come across more "human" and less "anti-O" when you
ramble. You also afford a venue for discussion and debate, rather
than acrimony.
--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
cindys
> On Sun, 9 May 2010 20:12:34 +0000 (UTC), cindys
>
>
> >The bulk of the chareidim had stayed in Europe and eventually died in
> >the camps. Alan Dershowitz wrote a book about Chabad Lubavitch (can't
> >recall the title, but I think it was written circa early 1990s), and
> >in the book he mentions that if you look at a family portrait of three
> >generations of American Jews, you will see the secular Jew, the srugie
> >Jew, and the black hat Jew. The secular Jew is the grandfather who
> >came from the old country, the srugie Jew is his son, and the black
> >hat Jew is the grandson. Dershowitz made the point that it was the
> >secular Jews who ensured the continuity of the Jewish people because
> >they were the ones who had the moxie to immigrate to America at the
> >turn of the century. The frummie Jews all maintained the status quo
> >and stayed behind in Europe.
>
> He really said this! Maybe it fits his family or friends' families.
>
> Does he know what secular means?
>
> I think the secular Jew was not very likely to have a srugie child**.
Come on, now, I was paraphrasing. Dershowitz was making the point that
it wasn't the black hat set for the most part who was immigrating, but
the generations in America have progressively been moving in a
rightward, not leftward direction. I added the part about the srugie.
> Some I'm sure, but not that many.
>
> Much more likely were the Jews who belonged to O, C, and R
This has nothing to do with OCR. They didn't know from OCR.
I can tell you that in my family, what I have written above was true.
I have pictures of my relatives from the old country. One side of the
family was dressed very fashionably. The women wore short sleeves and
had uncovered hair. The men were wearing fashionable light-colored
suits.
On the other side of the family, I have pictures of my great-
grandparents a"h shortly after they immigrated to America in 1902.
They look quite frum, and my great-grandmother is wearing a sheitl. In
later pictures (and as a widow), the sheitl is gone, and her hair is
uncovered.
My grandmother a"h was traditional and "Orthodox" and did not cook or
wash clothes on shabbos, but she did turn on lights and ride in a car,
and she did eat soft-boiled eggs in restaurants. And she was the most
religious of her siblings. All of the others (and these are turn-of
the century immigrants, directly from the old country, who would be
110-120 years old on average if they were alive today) did not keep
kosher and did not keep shabbos and had a very limited Jewish
education. And it wasn't because they were working in sweatshops on
Saturday and didn't have a choice because when they came, some of them
were still children.
My mother has often recounted the story of the time her then-young
aunt was hiding behind my grandmother's house, smoking on shabbos. My
"Orthodox" grandfather (who was the aunt's brother-in-law but who was
considerably older than she) went out in the backyard and caught her
in the act. He said to her, "Rivkie, I know you're smoking on shabbos,
so you may as well come back in the house and do so openly." My
grandfather a"h also held that there was nothing wrong with riding on
the streetcar on shabbos because it was running anyway.
My mother has often held these up as examples of how "modern" her
father was (and as an argument for why my son and I are crazy
religious and should adopt the more "sensible" approach to Judaism
that her father had.) I don't know about that, but if my grandmother
a"h were alive today, while I know she would be proud of my son (and
would not be trying to convince him to be mechallel shabbos), trust
me, he is infinitely more torah observant than she ever was.
And with regard to what you've written below, I was not talking about
philosophy but about actual practice. Again, my point has absolutely
nothing at all to do with OCR.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
> congregations, but especially O and C. Regarding O, there were and
> still can be seen a lot of Jews who worked on Shabbes because their
> bosses insisted on it, and maybe kept doing it after they had their
> own business, and who stopped doing other things they should, but I
> think it was the observant and less observant O who kept the O shuls
Don Levey
>
>
> C and R rabbis would not want the cut in pay to be chaplain. Chabad
> and Aish HaTorah are cHaredi and possibly the largest populations
> within cHaredim.
>
The (rabbi) director of our religious school spent several years as a
Navy chaplain before taking a cut in pay to run our school.
--
Don Levey, Framingam MA If knowledge is power,
(email address in header works) and power corrupts, then...
NOTE: Don't send mail to to sal...@the-leveys.us
GnuPG public key: http://www.the-leveys.us:6080/keys/don-dsakey.asc
Abe Kohen
"mm" <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote
[brit milah]
> **Someone who wears a kippah s'rugah, a knitted kippah, which in
> practice means modern Orthodox.
When I wear a kippa (on my head) it is often sruga. That does NOT make me
MO.
Best,
Abe
sheldonlg
The one kind I won't wear is that small one that needs a hairpin to
fasten on. Not that I have anything against it mind you. It is just
that the hairpin has to work and my hair is just too short.
--
Shelly
cindys
> On 5/10/2010 9:10 PM, Abe Kohen wrote:
>
>
> > [brit milah]
>
> >> **Someone who wears a kippah s'rugah, a knitted kippah, which in
> >> practice means modern Orthodox.
>
> > When I wear a kippa (on my head) it is often sruga. That does NOT make me
> > MO.
>
> The one kind I won't wear is that small one that needs a hairpin to
> fasten on. Not that I have anything against it mind you. It is just
> that the hairpin has to work and my hair is just too short.
I never could understand why parents choose those tiny srugies for
their small sons. Even with the bobby pins, they are constantly
falling off. The smartest thing I ever did was buy my sons black
velvet kippahs in a very large size. Due to the size, they stayed put
for the most part. The give-away "paper" kippahs from weddings and bar
mitzvahs also worked well, and since they didn't cost (me) anything, I
never got too worked up when they invariably got lost.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
mm
I was referring to those who wear a kappah all the time and wear a
kippah sruga most of the time.
At any rate, Cindy meant MO went she or Dershowitz used the word
srugie. That's what I was trying to explain.
>Best,
>Abe
As to the rest of the thread with Shelly and Cindy, where others use
like bobby pins, I like velcro, partly because it is so incongruous
and largely because it works.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>> > The military has found that the earlier a child is exposed to the
>> > second language (about ages 3 to 5 works well), the easier it is pick
>> > up languages later. Once a person becomes tri-lingual, it is even
>> > easier to learn languages. Look at how many in Europe are multi-
>> > lingual.
>> ----
>> Maybe some of those people could be recruited for the US Army. I've
>> heard that a lot of the Norwegians already speak fluent Arabic.
>
> Yeah, they are called Muslims who are setting up colonies in Europe.
Yet _another_ violation/victim of SDNWOTN!!!
(FTR I'm skipping most of the posts to this thread. I don't have to
wade through 100+ or 200+ lines to get to some "gem". This post was
short and funny, even if it wasn't meant to be.)
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> Abe Kohen wrote:
>> "mm"<NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote
>>
>> [brit milah]
>>
>>> **Someone who wears a kippah s'rugah, a knitted kippah, which in
>>> practice means modern Orthodox.
>>
>> When I wear a kippa (on my head) it is often sruga. That does
>> NOT make me MO.
>
> fasten on. Not that I have anything against it mind you. It is
> just that the hairpin has to work and my hair is just too short.
Try a thumbtack! <Ducking and running>
sheldonlg
I have been to many weddings and bar mitzvahs in my life and kippas were
given away at many of them, but I have never even seen a paper kippah.
They were always regular kippahs, usually cotton or polyester.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
--
Shelly
sheldonlg
> On Tue, 11 May 2010 01:10:07 +0000 (UTC), "Abe Kohen"
> <abek...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> "mm"<NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote
>>
>> [brit milah]
>>
>>> **Someone who wears a kippah s'rugah, a knitted kippah, which in
>>> practice means modern Orthodox.
>>
>> When I wear a kippa (on my head) it is often sruga. That does NOT make me
>> MO.
>
> I was referring to those who wear a kappah all the time and wear a
> kippah sruga most of the time.
>
> At any rate, Cindy meant MO went she or Dershowitz used the word
> srugie. That's what I was trying to explain.
>
>> Best,
>> Abe
>
> As to the rest of the thread with Shelly and Cindy, where others use
> like bobby pins, I like velcro, partly because it is so incongruous
> and largely because it works.
>
Ouch! Having that velco glue on you scalp. I guess you need to be bald
for it because otherwise it would hurt when it pulls the hair when
removing the velco.
--
Shelly
sheldonlg
> sheldonlg<shel...@giganews.com> writes:
>> Abe Kohen wrote:
>>> "mm"<NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote
>>>
>>> [brit milah]
>>>
>>>> **Someone who wears a kippah s'rugah, a knitted kippah, which in
>>>> practice means modern Orthodox.
>>>
>>> When I wear a kippa (on my head) it is often sruga. That does
>>> NOT make me MO.
>>
>> The one kind I won't wear is that small one that needs a hairpin to
>> fasten on. Not that I have anything against it mind you. It is
>> just that the hairpin has to work and my hair is just too short.
>
> Try a thumbtack!<Ducking and running>
You better! I intend using it as a deadly frisbee (a la Oddjob in
"Goldfinger"). :-)
--
Shelly
cindys
> On Tue, 11 May 2010 01:10:07 +0000 (UTC), "Abe Kohen"
>
>
> >"mm" <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote
>
> >[brit milah]
>
> >> **Someone who wears a kippah s'rugah, a knitted kippah, which in
> >> practice means modern Orthodox.
>
> >When I wear a kippa (on my head) it is often sruga. That does NOT make me
> >MO.
>
> I was referring to those who wear a kappah all the time and wear a
> kippah sruga most of the time.
>
> At any rate, Cindy meant MO went she or Dershowitz used the word
> srugie. That's what I was trying to explain.
>
> >Best,
> >Abe
>
> As to the rest of the thread with Shelly and Cindy, where others use
> like bobby pins, I like velcro, partly because it is so incongruous
> and largely because it works.
Velcro won't work if the person is bald, but it actually didn't work
so well with my little kids (who had lots of hair) either.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
They're not literally paper. That's why I put the word in quotation
marks. The kids call them "paper." But I don't think they're cotton.
If I had to guess, I would say they're actually made out of rayon.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Don Levey
something to which I can clip it. My boys use Bukharian-style kippot,
which seem to stay on reasonably well.
cindys
That works.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
mm
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>On May 11, 1:09 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 11 May 2010 01:10:07 +0000 (UTC), "Abe Kohen"
>>
>> <abeko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >"mm" <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote
>>
>> >[brit milah]
>>
>> >> **Someone who wears a kippah s'rugah, a knitted kippah, which in
>> >> practice means modern Orthodox.
>>
>> >When I wear a kippa (on my head) it is often sruga. That does NOT make me
>> >MO.
>>
>> I was referring to those who wear a kappah all the time and wear a
>> kippah sruga most of the time.
>>
>> At any rate, Cindy meant MO went she or Dershowitz used the word
>> srugie. That's what I was trying to explain.
Shelly wrote:
>Ouch! Having that velco glue on you scalp. I guess you need to be bald
>for it because otherwise it would hurt when it pulls the hair when
>removing the velco.
I know you're partly kidding, but ftr it really comes off easily, with
barely a tug on the hair, maybe because the angle is different, just
like when peeling velcro off of the other half of veclcro.
>> As to the rest of the thread with Shelly and Cindy, where others use
>> like bobby pins, I like velcro, partly because it is so incongruous
>> and largely because it works.
>----
>Velcro won't work if the person is bald, but it actually didn't work
>so well with my little kids (who had lots of hair) either.
Maybe kids' hair is finer?** One of the things I need to do is compare
wrt fiber size the velcro I bought at a Jewish bookstore with the
stuff I bought for other reasons at a hardware store. The latter
isn't working nearly as well. When I was in Israel for two months, I
only brought one kippah and wore it every day and by the end of the
trip, either the velcro was wearing out or my hair was wearing out.
I really need to get a magnifying glass and check this out, but I
never think of it.
But at 63, I still have a full head of hair, and all of it brown.
In my 50's I found loads of hair on the computer keyboard, and my hair
is thinner now, but even my hairline hasnt' receded. (he bragged) So
far. I remember pretty much and my brother tells me my father had a
full head of hair too when he died at 63, but I think there was some
grey after he got sick the last year or so.
>Best regards,
>---Cindy S.
** I needed some velcro for my convertible and found out about their
numerous array of products, things not sold in stores, but nothing
said if any had finer loops or hooks than others. I don't even know
if the licensed competition is the same size and will work with
velcro, or if it might be better for finer or coarser hair.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
Using what? The kipah or the thumbtack? <still D&R>
Art Werschulz
Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> writes:
> I find that the older I get, the larger my kippa as I need to find
> something to which I can clip it.
Ditto. I like to point out the the fact that my kippot are getting
larger is not particularly a sign of increased observance. Rather, it
shows that I'm starting to find fewer places onto which my kippa can be
clipped.
Or as my wife likes to put it, I need something larger to cover my
"solar panel".
--
Art Werschulz (agw STRUDEL comcast.net)
... insert clever quote here ...
mm
<omeg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On May 7, 8:38 am, sheldonlg <sheldo...@giganews.com> wrote:
>> On 5/7/2010 2:06 AM, cindys wrote:
>>
>> Cindy, what you have been saying here makes sense about Charedim and the
>> US Army and I don't disagree. The question I ask is if anyone knows
>> what happened when there was a draft (as with Vietnam) and they were
>> called to serve?
>>
>> --
>> Shelly
>
>Back then there was an exemption for those who were religious,
No.
>especially those studying for roles in "ministry".
ONLY for those in the ministry or studying for it. Not only was that
the law but one way it might be easy to remember is that Muhammed Ali
-- Cassius Clay -- tried to get deferment for being a Moslem
clergyman, on the principle that all Moslem men are clergy. That might
even be what something in their writings say, but it wasn't enough for
the Selective Service (which oversaw draft registration and
classification), and if it was appealed, the SSS was upheld.
I don't know what happened to Chassidic young men, but I just read in
What Where and When in Baltimore that there almost no Chassidim in
Baltimore in those days. Probably only in NYC, but what about there?
I'm guessing almost every Chassid of the right age was in yeshiva,
getting rabbinical training. IIRC, the ministerial student deferment
lasted longer than the general education student deferment, which
partly ended for grad school around 1967 and for undergrad around 1968
iirc, at which time one either had to be in the top 10% (10?) of his
class, or pass a specially created test (since being in the 50th
percentile of a hard school might indicate someone who was working as
hard as in the top 10% of an easy school).
There were other ways not yet mentioned to get out of being drafted,
iirc, working in a critical industry. Teaching?? I don't remember.
>The greatest cross selection was during WW2 when one out of three were
>drafted (same percentages up thru Vietnam but more exemptions).
>Modern Jews just do not serve like their grandparents did during WW2.
No one does. The US has a population more than twice as big, with
only about 1/3rd as many people in uniform. But there are a lot of
Jewish midshipman. More at the Naval Acadmeny than our percentage in
the population, I think. Probably West Point and the Air Force
Academy too.