On a parenting-related board, a poster (presumably non-Jewish) noted that she would be giving a baby shower around the end of December at was considering giving away non-religious "seasonal" symbols (specifically, teddy bears and snowmen) as party favors. She wondered whether Jewish guests would be offended at this.
I expressed doubt (as a matter of personal opinion and speaking only for myself, of course) that any Jew but a very observant Orthodox Jew would be offended by such secular symbols as these, or even by a candy cane or tree-decoration ball. Religious symbols -- such as crosses or manger scenes -- are another story, of course, and would be highly inappropriate.
Another poster said that the "vast majority" of Jews would be "highly offended" if they were given a tree-decoration ball at a party. Responding to my own posting, she wrote that only "anti-Israel, anti-religion, anti-observant jews" would share my opinion (I am none of these, by the way), and encouraged me to ask this question on a Jewish forum to see what kind of responses I got. So here I am.
How would you feel if you were invited to a baby shower by a non-Jewish friend and were given a teddy bear, snowman, or even tree ball as a party favor?
In <1129664318.645770.98...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> av...@pacbell.net writes: >On a parenting-related board, a poster (presumably non-Jewish) noted >that she would be giving a baby shower around the end of December at >was considering giving away non-religious "seasonal" symbols >(specifically, teddy bears and snowmen) as party favors. She wondered >whether Jewish guests would be offended at this. >I expressed doubt (as a matter of personal opinion and speaking only >for myself, of course) that any Jew but a very observant Orthodox Jew >would be offended by such secular symbols as these, or even by a candy >cane or tree-decoration ball. Religious symbols -- such as crosses or >manger scenes -- are another story, of course, and would be highly >inappropriate. >Another poster said that the "vast majority" of Jews would be "highly >offended" if they were given a tree-decoration ball at a party. >Responding to my own posting, she wrote that only "anti-Israel, >anti-religion, anti-observant jews" would share my opinion (I am none >of these, by the way), and encouraged me to ask this question on a >Jewish forum to see what kind of responses I got. So here I am. >How would you feel if you were invited to a baby shower by a non-Jewish >friend and were given a teddy bear, snowman, or even tree ball as a >party favor?
Short answer: none of them are, IMO, offensive.
Teddy bear and snowman of course not. With the tree decoration - well, obviously to a Jew it's not a particularly useful gift, but a teddybear isn't useful either. It's just a memento - there's nothing religious about a tree ball.
Even if it was religious - it's the hostess's party, and if she wanted to hand out crucifixes that'd be her right, I think. I would be uncomfortable, but not "offended" per se, by that. But then - why would someone want to do that? Of course, why would anyone want to give out snowmen?
Is it offensive to give out corkscrews, if one of your friends is an alcoholic or doesn't drink wine for whatever reason?
At worst it's insensitive, but it doesn't rise to the level of "offensive."
In article <1129664318.645770.98...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
av...@pacbell.net wrote: > Responding to my own posting, she wrote that only "anti-Israel, > anti-religion, anti-observant jews" would share my opinion (I am none > of these, by the way), and encouraged me to ask this question on a > Jewish forum to see what kind of responses I got. So here I am.
I think you should listen to that responder. She clearly knows a lot about being offensive.
> On a parenting-related board, a poster (presumably non-Jewish) noted > that she would be giving a baby shower around the end of December at > was considering giving away non-religious "seasonal" symbols > (specifically, teddy bears and snowmen) as party favors. She wondered > whether Jewish guests would be offended at this.
> I expressed doubt (as a matter of personal opinion and speaking only > for myself, of course) that any Jew but a very observant Orthodox Jew > would be offended by such secular symbols as these, or even by a candy > cane or tree-decoration ball. Religious symbols -- such as crosses or > manger scenes -- are another story, of course, and would be highly > inappropriate.
> Another poster said that the "vast majority" of Jews would be "highly > offended" if they were given a tree-decoration ball at a party. > Responding to my own posting, she wrote that only "anti-Israel, > anti-religion, anti-observant jews" would share my opinion (I am none > of these, by the way), and encouraged me to ask this question on a > Jewish forum to see what kind of responses I got. So here I am.
> How would you feel if you were invited to a baby shower by a non-Jewish > friend and were given a teddy bear, snowman, or even tree ball as a > party favor?
I think the tree ball is inappropriate. That said, I would look at the intent of the person giving it. Harry Golden use to tell the story of going to a luncheon in Atlanta where the appetizer course was obviously non-kosher (I think it had bacon bits) so the hostess came over and said she wanted to make sure he was taken care of properly and proceeded to serve him a shrimp cocktail. :)
I can't imagine anyone being offended by a snowman or teddy bear unless it was obviously in the form for use as a Christmas tree decoration.
> On a parenting-related board, a poster (presumably non-Jewish) noted > that she would be giving a baby shower around the end of December at > was considering giving away non-religious "seasonal" symbols > (specifically, teddy bears and snowmen) as party favors. She wondered > whether Jewish guests would be offended at this.
> I expressed doubt (as a matter of personal opinion and speaking only > for myself, of course) that any Jew but a very observant Orthodox Jew > would be offended by such secular symbols as these, or even by a candy > cane or tree-decoration ball. Religious symbols -- such as crosses or > manger scenes -- are another story, of course, and would be highly > inappropriate.
> Another poster said that the "vast majority" of Jews would be "highly > offended" if they were given a tree-decoration ball at a party. > Responding to my own posting, she wrote that only "anti-Israel, > anti-religion, anti-observant jews" would share my opinion (I am none > of these, by the way), and encouraged me to ask this question on a > Jewish forum to see what kind of responses I got. So here I am.
> How would you feel if you were invited to a baby shower by a non-Jewish > friend and were given a teddy bear, snowman, or even tree ball as a > party favor?
Offended - No.
Exasperated, dejected, and irritated - yes.
Why? Perhaps its because I worked retail for a while. I get fed up with how much Christmas permeates everything. And a tree ball is only used to decorate Christmas trees. If the poster scoffs at that, ask her "what other time of the year does she display them?"
(donning asbestos)
I affiliate with a C synagogue, where I sub for Hebrew school classes and help lead services but don't keep kosher, keep Shabbat, etc. So am kind of middle of the road with leanings toward more observant.
Christmas is a touchy thing for me and always has been. The constancy of everything being about the holiday just plain drives me nuts. It's less about my Jewishness and more about the fact it's almost impossible to shut out.
In the US, everything after Veteran's Day is about Christmas. You can't even go grocery shopping without the ever present carols and Christmas wreath bags. TV shows and commercials (even for local news stations) are 'holiday' themed (reds and greens, carol playing in the background, with a menorah stuck somewhere on the set). Society assumes everyone has warm, fuzzy feelings about the holiday born out of sugar plum memories which make Christmas time "the most wonderful time of the year." If you aren't joyous, you are "a scrooge."
Why can't a baby shower be about the blessing to be? Why must it *also* be about Christmas? The ornament is an easy and affordable thing for the hostess, no doubt. But unless the expectant mom is making a big deal about her Christmas baby, I think it's giving short shrift to the true purpose of party, the child that's on the way.
As a friend's daughter laments, when you are born around Christmas, your birthday gets melded into the holiday. Your birthday never gets to be a special day all by itself. She now celebrates her half birthday in June instead, so it can be a separate, unique day. This baby is having its special day melded in, and its not even here, yet.
Hi, Adelle! I responded to the post regarding the "non-religious seasonal symbols as party favors" much earlier this evening. When I responded, the only people whose responses had preceded mine were Steve's and TooMuchCoffeeMan. For whatever reason, my response has yet to appear on SCJM. I'm not sure if that's because it went to a human moderator or because it's floating around cyberspace.
I am concerned that if my post appears (following yours), it will appear as if I were answering you back in a very rude way, when in fact, my post wasn't written in response to yours at all, which appeared nearly 5 hours after I clicked the send button on mine. My post was intended to respond to the OP's statement that only the most Orthodox Jews would be offended by the Christmas favor whereas other Jews wouldn't, and my response was that I thought it was the opposite and stated that I thought the reason was that secular Jews find Christmas threatening because their Jewish identity is tenuous. I want to clarify: My post was not directed at you or at anything you said, I do not consider that you are secular or that your Jewish identity is tenuous, and my post was written and posted long before I saw yours (which I would not have sent it if yours had appeared first). I want to apologize in advance for any offense my response may engender.
> Hi, Adelle! I responded to the post regarding the "non-religious seasonal > symbols as party favors" much earlier this evening. When I responded, the > only people whose responses had preceded mine were Steve's and > TooMuchCoffeeMan. For whatever reason, my response has yet to appear on > SCJM. I'm not sure if that's because it went to a human moderator or > because > it's floating around cyberspace.
> I am concerned that if my post appears (following yours), it will appear > as > if I were answering you back in a very rude way, when in fact, my post > wasn't written in response to yours at all, which appeared nearly 5 hours > after I clicked the send button on mine. My post was intended to respond > to > the OP's statement that only the most Orthodox Jews would be offended by > the > Christmas favor whereas other Jews wouldn't, and my response was that I > thought it was the opposite and stated that I thought the reason was that > secular Jews find Christmas threatening because their Jewish identity is > tenuous. I want to clarify: My post was not directed at you or at anything > you said, I do not consider that you are secular or that your Jewish > identity is tenuous, and my post was written and posted long before I saw > yours (which I would not have sent it if yours had appeared first). I want > to apologize in advance for any offense my response may engender.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
Some of my stuff gets waylaid in cyberspace, too.
Glad you posted this. Combining that with your remark on another thread about less Jewish education leading to intermarriage was leading me into places I had just made teshuvah over. So thank you for leading me away from transgressing so soon ;-).
Hey, sometimes a parent does everything right and still gets a kids who marries out ;-) But some of us 'do good' anyway.
> > Hi, Adelle! I responded to the post regarding the "non-religious seasonal > > symbols as party favors" much earlier this evening. When I responded, the > > only people whose responses had preceded mine were Steve's and > > TooMuchCoffeeMan. For whatever reason, my response has yet to appear on > > SCJM. I'm not sure if that's because it went to a human moderator or > > because > > it's floating around cyberspace.
> > I am concerned that if my post appears (following yours), it will appear > > as > > if I were answering you back in a very rude way, when in fact, my post > > wasn't written in response to yours at all, which appeared nearly 5 hours > > after I clicked the send button on mine. My post was intended to respond > > to > > the OP's statement that only the most Orthodox Jews would be offended by > > the > > Christmas favor whereas other Jews wouldn't, and my response was that I > > thought it was the opposite and stated that I thought the reason was that > > secular Jews find Christmas threatening because their Jewish identity is > > tenuous. I want to clarify: My post was not directed at you or at anything > > you said, I do not consider that you are secular or that your Jewish > > identity is tenuous, and my post was written and posted long before I saw > > yours (which I would not have sent it if yours had appeared first). I want > > to apologize in advance for any offense my response may engender.
> > Best regards,
> > ---Cindy S.
> Some of my stuff gets waylaid in cyberspace, too.
> Glad you posted this. Combining that with your remark on another thread > about less Jewish education leading to intermarriage was leading me into > places I had just made teshuvah over. So thank you for leading me away from > transgressing so soon ;-).
------------------ My remark in the other thread was intended to be a general statement. Although I think what I said is true for the most part, obviously, there are notable exceptions and not just with respect to intermarriage. My words also don't account for the numerous cases of ba'alei teshuva, many of whom come from weak (Jewish) educational backgrounds. At any rate, the point I was really trying to make in the other thread (which based on your response here, probably wasn't clear at all) is that the non-O world spends a lot of time focused on blaming intermarriage as the #1 reason for a loss of Jews, and my thought on that is that the #1 culprit for loss of Jews is assimilation, of which intermarriage is a natural outcome but not the cause. The non-O communities spend a lot of time and energy trying to figure out how to *stem the tide of intermarriage,* when I think their efforts would be better spent trying to *stem the tide of assimilation.* Actually, I think your particular situation really does prove my point with respect to strong Jewish education = less assimilation. You are very Judaically involved, and you are raising your children with a strong Jewish identity. I don't know if that would have been the case if your Jewish education had been weak, intermarriage or in-marriage, and I think that could apply to anyone. Best regards, ---Cindy S.
>> Hi, Adelle! I responded to the post regarding the "non-religious >> seasonal >> symbols as party favors" much earlier this evening. When I responded, >> the >> only people whose responses had preceded mine were Steve's and >> TooMuchCoffeeMan. For whatever reason, my response has yet to appear >> on >> SCJM. I'm not sure if that's because it went to a human moderator or >> because >> it's floating around cyberspace.
>> I am concerned that if my post appears (following yours), it will >> appear as >> if I were answering you back in a very rude way, when in fact, my >> post >> wasn't written in response to yours at all, which appeared nearly 5 >> hours >> after I clicked the send button on mine. My post was intended to >> respond to >> the OP's statement that only the most Orthodox Jews would be offended >> by the >> Christmas favor whereas other Jews wouldn't, and my response was that >> I >> thought it was the opposite and stated that I thought the reason was >> that >> secular Jews find Christmas threatening because their Jewish identity >> is >> tenuous. I want to clarify: My post was not directed at you or at >> anything >> you said, I do not consider that you are secular or that your Jewish >> identity is tenuous, and my post was written and posted long before I >> saw >> yours (which I would not have sent it if yours had appeared first). I >> want >> to apologize in advance for any offense my response may engender.
>> Best regards,
>> ---Cindy S.
> Some of my stuff gets waylaid in cyberspace, too.
My own response to this one vanished as well. Good thing it was made out of 100% recycled electrons, as I wouldn't want it to be clogging a land fill or polluting the water. In any case, what I'd said in reply to the OP was:
Even there, I'd try to give the benefit of the doubt, as there are many non-Jews to whom it never occurs that we don't put up Xmas trees or celebrate some secular version of that holiday. With all the anti-Semitism and hatred with which we have to deal, why look for offense where none is intended?
> <av...@pacbell.net> wrote in message > news:1129664318.645770.98770@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... >> On a parenting-related board, a poster (presumably non-Jewish) noted >> that she would be giving a baby shower around the end of December at >> was considering giving away non-religious "seasonal" symbols >> (specifically, teddy bears and snowmen) as party favors. She wondered >> whether Jewish guests would be offended at this.
>> I expressed doubt (as a matter of personal opinion and speaking only >> for myself, of course) that any Jew but a very observant Orthodox Jew >> would be offended by such secular symbols as these, or even by a >> candy >> cane or tree-decoration ball. Religious symbols -- such as crosses or >> manger scenes -- are another story, of course, and would be highly >> inappropriate.
>> Another poster said that the "vast majority" of Jews would be "highly >> offended" if they were given a tree-decoration ball at a party. >> Responding to my own posting, she wrote that only "anti-Israel, >> anti-religion, anti-observant jews" would share my opinion (I am none >> of these, by the way), and encouraged me to ask this question on a >> Jewish forum to see what kind of responses I got. So here I am.
>> How would you feel if you were invited to a baby shower by a >> non-Jewish >> friend and were given a teddy bear, snowman, or even tree ball as a >> party favor?
> I think the tree ball is inappropriate. That said, I would look at > the > intent of the person giving it. Harry Golden use to tell the story of > going > to a luncheon in Atlanta where the appetizer course was obviously > non-kosher > (I think it had bacon bits) so the hostess came over and said she > wanted to > make sure he was taken care of properly and proceeded to serve him a > shrimp > cocktail. :)
> I can't imagine anyone being offended by a snowman or teddy bear > unless it > was obviously in the form for use as a Christmas tree decoration.
Even there, I'd try to give the benefit of the doubt, as there are many non-Jews to whom it never occurs that we don't put up Xmas trees or celebrate some secular version of that holiday. With all the anti-Semitism and hatred with which we have to deal, why look for offense where none is intended?
Teddy bear, snowman: no problem, altho I despise the green and red scarves and vests that they sometimes have on.
Tree ornaments are another matter, since I don't decorate trees, and would probably pass it on to my non-Jewish SIL for her tree.
My personal favorite is snowflakes. I like to decorate my windows with them and have a bunch of croched ones as well as the cut paper ones we make every year.
Right now, tho, I have leaves hanging in the windows.
> In the US, everything after Veteran's Day is about Christmas. You can't even > go grocery shopping without the ever present carols and Christmas wreath > bags. TV shows and commercials (even for local news stations) are 'holiday' > themed (reds and greens, carol playing in the background, with a menorah > stuck somewhere on the set). Society assumes everyone has warm, fuzzy > feelings about the holiday born out of sugar plum memories which make > Christmas time "the most wonderful time of the year." If you aren't joyous, > you are "a scrooge."
Not quite. There's enough truth there to that I can't say you're wrong, but I'll note first, there's a minor civic observance called "Thanksgiving" (and regardless of the Macy's parade and how retailers think, most people keep it separate from December holidays) and second, at least in the northeastern US where you and I are, there is increasing *public* acknowledgment of Chanukah.
Now why a fuss should be made over Chanukah as opposed to, say, Sukkot or Shavuot is a separate issue. But I note that there are menorahs (privately funded) in public areas in Boston, that the local TV stations will extend on-air Chanukah greetings throughout the holiday, and that there are even Chanukah themed specials for kids on both public and commercial stations.
So the notion that "everything" is about Christmas isn't quite right.
"Adelle" <adNOsta...@SPAMcomcast.net> writes: > <av...@pacbell.net> wrote in message > news:1129664318.645770.98770@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > > On a parenting-related board, a poster (presumably non-Jewish) noted > > that she would be giving a baby shower around the end of December at > > was considering giving away non-religious "seasonal" symbols > > (specifically, teddy bears and snowmen) as party favors. She wondered > > whether Jewish guests would be offended at this.
> > I expressed doubt (as a matter of personal opinion and speaking only > > for myself, of course) that any Jew but a very observant Orthodox Jew > > would be offended by such secular symbols as these, or even by a candy > > cane or tree-decoration ball. Religious symbols -- such as crosses or > > manger scenes -- are another story, of course, and would be highly > > inappropriate.
> > Another poster said that the "vast majority" of Jews would be "highly > > offended" if they were given a tree-decoration ball at a party. > > Responding to my own posting, she wrote that only "anti-Israel, > > anti-religion, anti-observant jews" would share my opinion (I am none > > of these, by the way), and encouraged me to ask this question on a > > Jewish forum to see what kind of responses I got. So here I am.
> > How would you feel if you were invited to a baby shower by a non-Jewish > > friend and were given a teddy bear, snowman, or even tree ball as a > > party favor?
> Offended - No.
> Exasperated, dejected, and irritated - yes.
For the teddy bear and snowman, I have no problem. But the decoration ball is *only* used on a tree. It's a subtle (and unconscious) reminder of exclusion. I know that as Jews we are a separate people in many ways, but in the US we are still full and equal citizens. To me, it would be like passing out mezuzzot at such a shower.
> Why? Perhaps its because I worked retail for a while. I get fed up with how > much Christmas permeates everything. And a tree ball is only used to > decorate Christmas trees. If the poster scoffs at that, ask her "what other > time of the year does she display them?"
> (donning asbestos)
Room for another in there?
> I affiliate with a C synagogue, where I sub for Hebrew school classes and > help lead services but don't keep kosher, keep Shabbat, etc. So am kind of > middle of the road with leanings toward more observant.
Likewise, though my synogogue is Reform, as is the second one at which I teach.
> Christmas is a touchy thing for me and always has been. The constancy of > everything being about the holiday just plain drives me nuts. It's less > about my Jewishness and more about the fact it's almost impossible to shut > out.
A few years ago I was in the supermarket when Adam Sandler's "Chanukah Song" came over the sound system. Two women nearby (who didn't look Jewish, and I think were wearing crosses) were discussing just how tired they were of that song; it was everywhere. I went up to them and said "now you know how the rest of us feel."
> In the US, everything after Veteran's Day is about Christmas.
I should move to your town. Around me, some stores start with it after *Labor Day* (for non-US: First Monday following the first Sunday in September).
> You can't even > go grocery shopping without the ever present carols and Christmas wreath > bags. TV shows and commercials (even for local news stations) are 'holiday' > themed (reds and greens, carol playing in the background, with a menorah > stuck somewhere on the set). Society assumes everyone has warm, fuzzy > feelings about the holiday born out of sugar plum memories which make > Christmas time "the most wonderful time of the year." If you aren't joyous, > you are "a scrooge."
And the fake "happy holidays" greetings? Every once in a while I ask what holidays they're talking about - especially when Chanukah is over. Funny, too, that the greeting changes from Happy Holidays to Happy New Year right around Dec. 26th.
And of course Dan mentioned the *publicly-funded* recognition of these holidays. Even when the displays themselves are privately-provided, when placed on public land there is a public funding component. While they claim that they are open to any and all religious displays, I will believe it only when they permit a display provided by the town Satanists. Until then, it is all talk designed to mask endorsement of religious activity.
> Why can't a baby shower be about the blessing to be? Why must it *also* be > about Christmas? The ornament is an easy and affordable thing for the > hostess, no doubt. But unless the expectant mom is making a big deal about > her Christmas baby, I think it's giving short shrift to the true purpose of > party, the child that's on the way.
After all, wasn't that day supposed to be someone else's birthday?
> As a friend's daughter laments, when you are born around Christmas, your > birthday gets melded into the holiday. Your birthday never gets to be a > special day all by itself. She now celebrates her half birthday in June > instead, so it can be a separate, unique day. This baby is having its > special day melded in, and its not even here, yet.
We have a niece whose birthday is Dec 24th. We make a point of gathering a separate time just for her birthday, with presents just for her. My wife's family isn't Jewish, so they celebrate Christmas; when we join them we schedule a time for the celebration which is mutually- agreeable, usually between the two holidays. And my kids get gifts in Chanukah wrapping paper. We each celebrate the religious aspects of our holidays in our own homes.
-- Don Levey If knowledge is power, Framingham, MA and power corrupts, then... NOTE: email server uses spam filters; mail sent to sale...@the-leveys.us will be used to tune the blocking lists.
"Adelle" <adNOsta...@SPAMcomcast.net> wrote: > In the US, everything after Veteran's Day is about Christmas. You can't even > go grocery shopping without the ever present carols and Christmas wreath > bags. TV shows and commercials (even for local news stations) are 'holiday' > themed (reds and greens, carol playing in the background, with a menorah > stuck somewhere on the set).
My wife used to work at the corporate HQ of a large retailer with a heavily Xtian corporate culture. Every year, a monstrous big-ass Xmas tree went up in the lobby - but one year the HR equal-opportunity officer came to her all gushing about how they were honoring the religious traditions of their non-Xtian employees.
By this she meant, they were hanging dreidels on the tree.
When my wife stopped laughing, she tried two or three times to make the HR person understand why this was inappropriate from a Jewish standpoint, but she couldn't seem to get through. Finally, she pointed out that a dreidel is a gambling device, and gee, our Southern Baptist co-workers might be pretty upset by that, don't you think? (Casinos had recently been a big political issue in the area and public opposition was strongly religious.)
The dreidels came off.
The capper is that there were far more Hindus and Muslims working in the building than Jews (lots of IT people from India) and it never occurred to anyone to do anything to recognize their religions.
> In article <ZfWdnUoSc6a7h8reRVn...@comcast.com>, > "Adelle" <adNOsta...@SPAMcomcast.net> wrote:
>> In the US, everything after Veteran's Day is about Christmas. You can't >> even >> go grocery shopping without the ever present carols and Christmas wreath >> bags. TV shows and commercials (even for local news stations) are >> 'holiday' >> themed (reds and greens, carol playing in the background, with a menorah >> stuck somewhere on the set).
> My wife used to work at the corporate HQ of a large retailer with a > heavily Xtian corporate culture. Every year, a monstrous big-ass Xmas > tree went up in the lobby - but one year the HR equal-opportunity > officer came to her all gushing about how they were honoring the > religious traditions of their non-Xtian employees.
> By this she meant, they were hanging dreidels on the tree.
> When my wife stopped laughing, she tried two or three times to make the > HR person understand why this was inappropriate from a Jewish > standpoint, but she couldn't seem to get through. Finally, she pointed > out that a dreidel is a gambling device, and gee, our Southern Baptist > co-workers might be pretty upset by that, don't you think? (Casinos had > recently been a big political issue in the area and public opposition > was strongly religious.)
> The dreidels came off.
ROTFLWTIME!!!!!!
Oh! how obtuse and how funny!
> The capper is that there were far more Hindus and Muslims working in the > building than Jews (lots of IT people from India) and it never occurred > to anyone to do anything to recognize their religions.
At the charter school my daughter attended, parents taught electives once a week for an hour or so. I helped teach a class on festivals of light. It was wonderful. These were truly respectful and motivated kids who wanted to share their own practices and learn about others. The world's 'major' religions were represented - Christian, Jew, Muslim and Hindu. They did internet research to find other festivals of light.
>> In the US, everything after Veteran's Day is about Christmas. You can't > even >> go grocery shopping without the ever present carols and Christmas wreath >> bags. TV shows and commercials (even for local news stations) are > 'holiday' >> themed (reds and greens, carol playing in the background, with a menorah >> stuck somewhere on the set). Society assumes everyone has warm, fuzzy >> feelings about the holiday born out of sugar plum memories which make >> Christmas time "the most wonderful time of the year." If you aren't > joyous, >> you are "a scrooge."
> Not quite. There's enough truth there to that I can't say you're wrong, > but > I'll note first, there's a minor civic observance called "Thanksgiving" > (and > regardless of the Macy's parade and how retailers think, most people keep > it > separate from December holidays) and second, at least in the northeastern > US > where you and I are, there is increasing *public* acknowledgment of > Chanukah.
> Now why a fuss should be made over Chanukah as opposed to, say, Sukkot or > Shavuot is a separate issue. But I note that there are menorahs > (privately > funded) in public areas in Boston, that the local TV stations will extend > on-air Chanukah greetings throughout the holiday, and that there are even > Chanukah themed specials for kids on both public and commercial stations.
> So the notion that "everything" is about Christmas isn't quite right.
Dan,
I will cede that maybe 10% is not (and I think I'm being generous).
Retailers start putting up Christmas decorations for "Christmas in July" and leave them up, then add more for the Veteran's day sales. From Veteran's day, Christmas music tapes are added to the rotation. And from the day after Thanksgiving (the biggest shopping day of the year, with tons of Christmas sales advertised in Thursday's Thanksgiving newspaper), retailers just repeat the holiday tapes (over and over. Even my Christian co-workers got fed up. We used to play the radio in the back room and take 'sanity' breaks by switching off to listen to something else, even if it was for 30 seconds or less).
Yesterday, WCVB news did a consumer report about Home Depot and how people considering giving Home Depot gift cards should know they cannot be used for homedepot.com purchases. The lead in to the report was that Christmas is right around the corner.
Newspapers have charity programs centered on Santa.
Yes, Boston Chabad has a great relationship with the Boston power structure and the menorah lighting attracts all the right influential politicians and is covered by all the major media. Yes, there is the Charlie Brown Thanksgiving show and Arthur's "A Perfect Christmas" which highlights Francine celebrating Chanukah. But by sheer volume of shows and references, the 'other' December holiday just overwhelms everything else.
> Yes, Boston Chabad has a great relationship with the Boston power structure > and the menorah lighting attracts all the right influential politicians and > is covered by all the major media. Yes, there is the Charlie Brown > Thanksgiving show and Arthur's "A Perfect Christmas" which highlights > Francine celebrating Chanukah. But by sheer volume of shows and references, > the 'other' December holiday just overwhelms everything else.
Well, what percentage of the American populace celebrates Christmas? I'm able to enjoy the lights and (some of) the music, and pretty much ignore the rest.
I'm sure the Christians in Israel feel the same about Jewish holidays. :)
(And, yes, of course, there's a real issue about the *commercial* exploitation of the holidays.)
~> news:1129664318.645770.98770@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... ~> > On a parenting-related board, a poster (presumably non-Jewish) noted ~> > that she would be giving a baby shower around the end of December at ~> > was considering giving away non-religious "seasonal" symbols ~> > (specifically, teddy bears and snowmen) as party favors. She wondered ~> > whether Jewish guests would be offended at this. ~> > ~> > I expressed doubt (as a matter of personal opinion and speaking only ~> > for myself, of course) that any Jew but a very observant Orthodox Jew ~> > would be offended by such secular symbols as these, or even by a candy ~> > cane or tree-decoration ball. Religious symbols -- such as crosses or ~> > manger scenes -- are another story, of course, and would be highly ~> > inappropriate. ~> > ~> > Another poster said that the "vast majority" of Jews would be "highly ~> > offended" if they were given a tree-decoration ball at a party. ~> > Responding to my own posting, she wrote that only "anti-Israel, ~> > anti-religion, anti-observant jews" would share my opinion (I am none ~> > of these, by the way), and encouraged me to ask this question on a ~> > Jewish forum to see what kind of responses I got. So here I am. ~> > ~> > How would you feel if you were invited to a baby shower by a non-Jewish ~> > friend and were given a teddy bear, snowman, or even tree ball as a ~> > party favor? ~> > ~> ~> Offended - No. ~> ~> Exasperated, dejected, and irritated - yes. ~> ~For the teddy bear and snowman, I have no problem. But the decoration ~ball is *only* used on a tree. It's a subtle (and unconscious) reminder ~of exclusion. I know that as Jews we are a separate people in many ways, ~but in the US we are still full and equal citizens. To me, it would be like ~passing out mezuzzot at such a shower. ~ ~> Why? Perhaps its because I worked retail for a while. I get fed up with how ~> much Christmas permeates everything. And a tree ball is only used to ~> decorate Christmas trees. If the poster scoffs at that, ask her "what other ~> time of the year does she display them?" ~> ~> (donning asbestos) ~> ~Room for another in there? ~ ~> I affiliate with a C synagogue, where I sub for Hebrew school classes and ~> help lead services but don't keep kosher, keep Shabbat, etc. So am kind of ~> middle of the road with leanings toward more observant. ~> ~Likewise, though my synogogue is Reform, as is the second one at which ~I teach. ~ ~> Christmas is a touchy thing for me and always has been. The constancy of ~> everything being about the holiday just plain drives me nuts. It's less ~> about my Jewishness and more about the fact it's almost impossible to shut ~> out. ~> ~A few years ago I was in the supermarket when Adam Sandler's "Chanukah ~Song" came over the sound system. Two women nearby (who didn't look ~Jewish, and I think were wearing crosses) were discussing just how tired ~they were of that song; it was everywhere. I went up to them and said ~"now you know how the rest of us feel." ~ ~> In the US, everything after Veteran's Day is about Christmas. ~ ~I should move to your town. Around me, some stores start with it ~after *Labor Day* (for non-US: First Monday following the first Sunday ~in September). ~ ~> You can't even ~> go grocery shopping without the ever present carols and Christmas wreath ~> bags. TV shows and commercials (even for local news stations) are 'holiday' ~> themed (reds and greens, carol playing in the background, with a menorah ~> stuck somewhere on the set). Society assumes everyone has warm, fuzzy ~> feelings about the holiday born out of sugar plum memories which make ~> Christmas time "the most wonderful time of the year." If you aren't joyous, ~> you are "a scrooge."
Mid-winter depression is a well-documented phenomena. Partly light-deficiency, part irritation at being "cheered" at all the time.
~And the fake "happy holidays" greetings? Every once in a while I ask ~what holidays they're talking about - especially when Chanukah is over. ~Funny, too, that the greeting changes from Happy Holidays to Happy ~New Year right around Dec. 26th. ~ ~And of course Dan mentioned the *publicly-funded* recognition of these ~holidays. Even when the displays themselves are privately-provided, ~when placed on public land there is a public funding component. While ~they claim that they are open to any and all religious displays, I will ~believe it only when they permit a display provided by the town Satanists. ~Until then, it is all talk designed to mask endorsement of religious ~activity.
Last year, to "outwit" the ACLU, the mayor of Cranston RI allowed anyone to put up thier December symbols on City Hall's front lawn. Th biggest complaints were about the pink plastic flamingos with red stocking caps. The Chabad menorah and the Wiccan display got very little press.
~> Why can't a baby shower be about the blessing to be? Why must it *also* be ~> about Christmas? The ornament is an easy and affordable thing for the ~> hostess, no doubt. But unless the expectant mom is making a big deal about ~> her Christmas baby, I think it's giving short shrift to the true purpose of ~> party, the child that's on the way. ~> ~After all, wasn't that day supposed to be someone else's birthday? ~ ~> As a friend's daughter laments, when you are born around Christmas, your ~> birthday gets melded into the holiday. Your birthday never gets to be a ~> special day all by itself. She now celebrates her half birthday in June ~> instead, so it can be a separate, unique day. This baby is having its ~> special day melded in, and its not even here, yet. ~> ~We have a niece whose birthday is Dec 24th. We make a point of gathering ~a separate time just for her birthday, with presents just for her. ~My wife's family isn't Jewish, so they celebrate Christmas; when we ~join them we schedule a time for the celebration which is mutually- ~agreeable, usually between the two holidays. And my kids get gifts ~in Chanukah wrapping paper. We each celebrate the religious aspects of ~our holidays in our own homes.
> On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 13:15:55 +0000 (UTC), Don Levey > <Don_S...@the-leveys.us> connected the dots and wrote:
> ~"Adelle" <adNOsta...@SPAMcomcast.net> writes: > ~ > ~> <av...@pacbell.net> wrote in message > ~> news:1129664318.645770.98770@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > ~> You can't even > ~> go grocery shopping without the ever present carols and Christmas > wreath > ~> bags. TV shows and commercials (even for local news stations) are > 'holiday' > ~> themed (reds and greens, carol playing in the background, with a > menorah > ~> stuck somewhere on the set). Society assumes everyone has warm, > fuzzy > ~> feelings about the holiday born out of sugar plum memories which > make > ~> Christmas time "the most wonderful time of the year." If you aren't > joyous, > ~> you are "a scrooge."
> Mid-winter depression is a well-documented phenomena. Partly > light-deficiency, part irritation at being "cheered" at all the time.
(LOL) Yes. I have a home made light box. For it to be effective, I need to use it an hour before dawn. But as a night owl I sleep most deeply between 4 and 8 AM. (sigh).
> ~ > ~And of course Dan mentioned the *publicly-funded* recognition of > these > ~holidays. Even when the displays themselves are privately-provided, > ~when placed on public land there is a public funding component. While > ~they claim that they are open to any and all religious displays, I > will > ~believe it only when they permit a display provided by the town > Satanists. > ~Until then, it is all talk designed to mask endorsement of religious > ~activity.
> Last year, to "outwit" the ACLU, the mayor of Cranston RI allowed > anyone to put up thier December symbols on City Hall's front lawn. Th > biggest complaints were about the pink plastic flamingos with red > stocking caps. The Chabad menorah and the Wiccan display got very > little press.
> Last year, to "outwit" the ACLU, the mayor of Cranston RI allowed > anyone to put up thier December symbols on City Hall's front lawn. Th > biggest complaints were about the pink plastic flamingos with red > stocking caps. The Chabad menorah and the Wiccan display got very > little press.
There's a lot of misunderstanding about the ACLU's position which is actually very common sense and pro-religious expression: religious symbols should not be funded by the government and a public forum open for religious displays has to be open to *all*.
So the mayor in this example didn't "outwit" the ACLU -- or the Constitution -- but rather did what governments are supposed to do: be neutral and let individuals choose for themselves.
There's a reason Jews have thrived in the US like nowhere else in the modern diaspora.
av...@pacbell.net wrote: > On a parenting-related board, a poster (presumably non-Jewish) noted > that she would be giving a baby shower around the end of December at > was considering giving away non-religious "seasonal" symbols > (specifically, teddy bears and snowmen) as party favors. She wondered > whether Jewish guests would be offended at this.
> I expressed doubt (as a matter of personal opinion and speaking only > for myself, of course) that any Jew but a very observant Orthodox Jew > would be offended by such secular symbols as these, or even by a candy > cane or tree-decoration ball. Religious symbols -- such as crosses or > manger scenes -- are another story, of course, and would be highly > inappropriate.
> Another poster said that the "vast majority" of Jews would be "highly > offended" if they were given a tree-decoration ball at a party. > Responding to my own posting, she wrote that only "anti-Israel, > anti-religion, anti-observant jews" would share my opinion (I am none > of these, by the way), and encouraged me to ask this question on a > Jewish forum to see what kind of responses I got. So here I am.
> How would you feel if you were invited to a baby shower by a non-Jewish > friend and were given a teddy bear, snowman, or even tree ball as a > party favor?
Snowmen are fine. Teddy bears are also fine. As for tree balls...
Lechatchila they shouldn't do it. If they're asking, they should be told it's not appropriate.
Bidieved, I'll assume ignorence rather than be offended.
--Ken Bloom
-- I usually have a GPG digital signature included as an attachment. See http://www.gnupg.org/ for info about these digital signatures.
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 06:14:08 +0000 (UTC), "Dan Kimmel" <daniel.kim...@rcn.com> connected the dots and wrote:
~ ~"maxine in ri" <weed...@yoohoot.com> wrote in message ~news:6ngjl19qahj1n34upc4183gv1bces5fbrg@4ax.com... ~> Last year, to "outwit" the ACLU, the mayor of Cranston RI allowed ~> anyone to put up thier December symbols on City Hall's front lawn. Th ~> biggest complaints were about the pink plastic flamingos with red ~> stocking caps. The Chabad menorah and the Wiccan display got very ~> little press. ~ ~There's a lot of misunderstanding about the ACLU's position which is ~actually very common sense and pro-religious expression: religious symbols ~should not be funded by the government and a public forum open for religious ~displays has to be open to *all*. ~ ~So the mayor in this example didn't "outwit" the ACLU -- or the ~Constitution -- but rather did what governments are supposed to do: be ~neutral and let individuals choose for themselves.
Thanks. "outwit" was in quotes for that reason.
~There's a reason Jews have thrived in the US like nowhere else in the modern ~diaspora. ~
> Teddy bear, snowman: no problem, altho I despise the green and red > scarves and vests that they sometimes have on.
Come to sunny Israel. Here, they have no _idea_ of the connection between green and red scarves and vests to Xmas. AAMOF you can find blinking lights in the most Haredi sukkot. Americans never stop laughing about it.
Moshe Schorr It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue. Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
While going through this thread it sundenly dawned on me - this is our annual "How do you handle Christmas in the USA" thread. It just came in sneaky with a different Header. :-)
Moshe Schorr It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue. Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
> On a parenting-related board, a poster (presumably non-Jewish) noted > that she would be giving a baby shower around the end of December at > was considering giving away non-religious "seasonal" symbols > (specifically, teddy bears and snowmen) as party favors. She wondered > whether Jewish guests would be offended at this.
Tell your friend that there's no way to predict how someone would react, that level of observance has much less to do with a Jew being offended (and if so, how much) by a cheap party favor than past personal experience.
IMHO - Teddy bear - fine Teddy bear with red and green scarf and hat - not so fine Snowperson - OK Teddy bear or snowperson with cord to be hung on a tree - not OK Candy cane or tree-decoration ball - not at all OK
And I would have felt this way before I became observant.
If she's having a hard time, she could always try to find something like a kitschy plastic dreidel filled with gelt to give to her Jewish guest(s). That kind of personal touch would be more appreciated IMHO.
