Jews of Colour in America
Fiona Abrahami
interest to at least a couple of regulars here (though no doubt they already
know about B'Chol Lashon).
Fiona
Lee Ratner
<fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Thought this article about summer camps for non-white Jewish kid might be of
> interest to at least a couple of regulars here (though no doubt they already
> know about B'Chol Lashon).
>
>
I'm a bit divided on the idea of a separate Jewish summer camp
for non-White Jews for several reasons. I do not think that Sephardic/
Ashkenazi Jews should be classified as white if only because white non-
Jews persecuted us enough that we should be at least honorable people
of color. I think that dividing Jews between whites and non-whites
creates unnecessary divisions in the Jewish world. Jews really do not
have the demographics for this and the effects of this are potentially
harmful. "White" Jews might start thinking that "non-White" Jews are
not really Jews if separate.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
While there, I came across this article:
Whitehall in turmoil over Muslim advisers
Sounds like Whitehall is _really_ confused, to put it charitably.
--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
mirjam
<fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Thought this article about summer camps for non-white Jewish kid might be of
> interest to at least a couple of regulars here (though no doubt they already
> know about B'Chol Lashon).
>
>
> Fiona
I have never heard about such a group , and it doesn`t please me , all
Jewish kids should go to same schools as well as summer camps.
mirjam
Fiona Abrahami
"Lee Ratner" <lbra...@gmail.com> wrote
> "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> Thought this article about summer camps for non-white Jewish kid might be
>> of
>> interest to at least a couple of regulars here (though no doubt they
>> already
>> know about B'Chol Lashon).
>>
>> <http://www.thejc.com/news/world-news/21902/mixed-race-jewish-children...>
>>
>
> I'm a bit divided on the idea of a separate Jewish summer camp
> for non-White Jews for several reasons. I do not think that Sephardic/
> Ashkenazi Jews should be classified as white if only because white non-
> Jews persecuted us enough that we should be at least honorable people
> of color.
It doesn't really matter what we would like, the issue is what is real. And
sadly, for obvious reasons, the majority of Jews (both Ashkenazi and
Sephardi) in the West are seen as, and see themselves as white. In Israel
the dynamics are different, but only slightly, and only because the ratio of
"olive" to white is higher and even "whites" are darker as a result of
higher sun shine rates.
> I think that dividing Jews between whites and non-whites
> creates unnecessary divisions in the Jewish world. Jews really do not
> have the demographics for this and the effects of this are potentially
> harmful. "White" Jews might start thinking that "non-White" Jews are
> not really Jews if separate.
I don't know which planet you live on, but obviously this issue is below
your radar. In my experience - which is precisely why I've posted this -
that division you fear already exists and has existed for a long, long time.
As the article says many non-white Jews find that white Jews automatically
assume that they are converts, of course some of them are, but those who are
not but are born Jews find this hurtful (how would you feel, if everytime
you met a new person in the Jewish community they assumed you were a
convert?). Even those who are converts find these assumptions negative,
because it limits their freedom within the community, and they find they
always have to be ready to explain themselves - I've seen both scenarios,
many times.
Having to endless retell your backstory is infuriating when all you want to
do is get on with your life. That's why these camps are being set up, to
give the kids, who though no fault of their own, find themselves in this
marginalized position.
Fiona
Fiona Abrahami
"mirjam" <mir...@actcom.co.il> wrote
> "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Thought this article about summer camps for non-white Jewish kid might be
>> of
>> interest to at least a couple of regulars here (though no doubt they
>> already
>> know about B'Chol Lashon).
>>
>> <http://www.thejc.com/news/world-news/21902/mixed-race-jewish-children...>
>
> Jewish kids should go to same schools as well as summer camps.
I'm sure they do go to the same schools as other Jewish kids throughout the
year, but for a couple of weeks in the summer they get to be with other kids
you face the same problems and prejudices, where they can be themselves
without having to worry about being bullied over their identities. Why
begrudge them that?
Fiona
Abe Kohen
"Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:rETLm.4028$iN1....@newsfe21.ams2...
For the same reason that U'jamaa houses on campuses tend to divide, rather
than unite. Exclusionary segregation. Is it better because it's by choice?
Best,
Abe
Fiona Abrahami
"Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote
> "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote
>> "mirjam" <mir...@actcom.co.il> wrote
>>> "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thought this article about summer camps for non-white Jewish kid might
>>>> be of interest to at least a couple of regulars here (though no doubt
>>>> they already know about B'Chol Lashon).
>>>>
>>>> <http://www.thejc.com/news/world-news/21902/mixed-race-jewish-children...>
>>>
>>> I have never heard about such a group , and it doesn`t please me , all
>>> Jewish kids should go to same schools as well as summer camps.
>>
>> I'm sure they do go to the same schools as other Jewish kids throughout
>> the year, but for a couple of weeks in the summer they get to be with
>> identities. Why begrudge them that?
>
> For the same reason that U'jamaa houses on campuses tend to divide, rather
> than unite. Exclusionary segregation. Is it better because it's by choice?
I've no idea what U'jamaa is, but it's irrelevant, if the majority Jewish
community was inclusive there would be no need for these summer camps. They
are not creating division, the division is already there, they are just
trying to survive not being part of the mainstream. And to survive the
disconnect Jews of colour feel the need to associate with others like them,
they need feel (as we all do) that they are not alone. Ask yourself why they
feel that need, don't run them down for feeling it!
Fiona
Micha Berger
> I'm sure they do go to the same schools as other Jewish kids throughout the
> year, but for a couple of weeks in the summer they get to be with other kids
> you face the same problems and prejudices, where they can be themselves
> without having to worry about being bullied over their identities. Why
> begrudge them that?
Because I don't think playing up their differentness helps -- neither
them, nor those classmates who harbor those prejudices.
Rafi is off in college, so I don't have his opinion on the subject yet.
But as his dad, I think that sending him to that kind of camp is a
horrible idea.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Life is complex.
mi...@aishdas.org Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org The Torah is complex.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - R' Binyamin Hecht
mm
"“All my life I’ve had to defend being Jewish,” says Ms Wu. “When I go
to a new synagogue, people ask who I’m with. I don’t want her to have
to explain her Judaism, or be exoticised for it. I just want her to be
a kid, not ‘that special, multi-racial kid’.”"
I would never ask someone who they are with. It's prying, even if she
was with someone. If she wants to go find whoever she's with and
introduce hir, she can do that without my prompting.
Or someone might say, "I'm here with so-and-so", and then the other
person can say "I'd love to meet hir." That's fine but the other is
not. People should be taught manners.
When what's his name, a black convert to Judaism, asked for advice
about which congregation to go to, his rabbi told him to go to the
strictest congregation in town. They will only care if he's a Jew and
not about race, he said.
--
Meir
"The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
cindys
snip
>
> I don't know which planet you live on, but obviously this issue is below
> your radar. In my experience - which is precisely why I've posted this -
> that division you fear already exists and has existed for a long, long time.
> As the article says many non-white Jews find that white Jews automatically
> assume that they are converts, of course some of them are, but those who are
> not but are born Jews find this hurtful (how would you feel, if every time
> you met a new person in the Jewish community they assumed you were a
> convert?).
Or that you were a neophyte in perpetuity? (i.e., new at this forever)
>Even those who are converts find these assumptions negative,
> because it limits their freedom within the community, and they find they
> always have to be ready to explain themselves - I've seen both scenarios,
> many times.
Yup. Our most recent incident was at Simchas Torah. My older son (who
was wearing the black hat uniform) and I were in the hallway, taking a
brief break from the Sephardic service (the local Sephardic shul is
temporarily renting space from an Ashkenazic shul). Someone from the
Ashkenazic shul whom we did not know approached my son and asked him
if he would like to have an aliyah at the Ashkenazic shul. When my son
said "no thanks," the guy started to pressure him and offered to help
him say the beracha.
Initially, I thought that was a really strange thing for someone to
say. Then, it dawned on me why he had said it. I responded, "He
doesn't need help with the beracha. He's graduating from yeshiva this
year." If I had it to do again, I would have added "and for the
record, my son [with his flat nose and epicanthic folds], can probably
learn circles around you." (Yeah, I know...whatabitch).
My son wasn't concerned, though. He told me he was used to that sort
of thing. With each new school year in yeshiva, the first thing all
the freshmen want to know is "Who's the Chinese [sic] kid?" Or
sometimes, (the chutzpah), the new yeshiva freshmen will ask me
personal questions about my children (right in front of them, as if
they weren't there), like "Did you adopt them? Are they brothers?" I
want to smack them. This year, one of the new freshmen said to my son,
"I'll bet you're really good at math." Do these kids come from a
different planet? What a pack of idiots.
And then of course, there was the time my son spent a weekend with his
friend in Brooklyn (I've told this story on this forum in the past),
and they davened in a chassidishe shul, and even though my son, again,
was wearing the black hat uniform, the chassidim all turned around and
stared at him openly, and when he wished them a "gut shabbos," they
did not respond.
But I don't think the solution is a separate summer camp, and I would
not have sent my children there. I think it would exacerbate the
situation rather than improve it. Caucasian Jews need the reminder
that Judaism is color-blind, and by segregating Jews of other races,
it only serves to reinforce their prejudices.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Fiona Abrahami
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
> But I don't think the solution is a separate summer camp, and I would
> not have sent my children there. I think it would exacerbate the
> situation rather than improve it. Caucasian Jews need the reminder
> that Judaism is color-blind, and by segregating Jews of other races,
> it only serves to reinforce their prejudices.
I agree that white Jews (sorry, I don't like the word Caucasian, it's pretty
meaningless) need to be reminded, or even told in the first place, that
Judaism is colour blind, I think camps like these are a good idea because it
enables Jewish kids of color to network and know that there are other kids
going through similar experiences. They could swap coping strategies, and it
breaks down the feeling of isolation. Your son may tell you he's OK and that
he's used to it, but it must still hurt deep down inside, and it's a
constant pressure.
Fiona
cindys
snip
>
> When what's his name, a black convert to Judaism, asked for advice
> about which congregation to go to, his rabbi told him to go to the
> strictest congregation in town. They will only care if he's a Jew and
> not about race, he said.
That's what I used to think, but the reality is much different.
Best regards,
----Cindy S.
cindys
<fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
The other issue (which was not obvious from the article, but I
googled) is that the camp "promotes Jewish diversity and pluralism."
This would have been a huge problem for my sons who are/were being
raised in the yeshiva community.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
And another story - after my son had had his gerus (conversion) with a
frum beis din, endorsed and promoted by the rosh yeshiva of our city,
and after he had celebrated his bar mitzvah at our shul with great joy
and fanfare and with the good will and best wishes from the entire
congregation, and after he was a weekly presence at shabbos minyan,
for a year or two after that, when the shul hired a new rabbi, the new
rabbi had the chutzpah to start grilling me about my son's gerus with
a phony story that "the board members of the synagogue were wondering"
about my son's conversion. Grrrrrr!!!!!
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Fiona Abrahami
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote
Yeah, that's fair enough, I would have the same issues myself.
Fiona
mirjam
> But I don't think the solution is a separate summer camp, and I would
> not have sent my children there. I think it would exacerbate the
> situation rather than improve it. Caucasian Jews need the reminder
> that Judaism is color-blind, and by segregating Jews of other races,
> it only serves to reinforce their prejudices.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
others, [directly or undirectly]. I believe that the only way to
teach people , that Everybody is Unique , but has the same rights/
duties/feelings is by sending them to the same summer schools.
When i was an adviser about HandCraft Instructors, in the Ministry of
Education, i insisted on a Summer Week , where all the students ,
Muslim, Bedouin, Christian and Jews , will be together for a whole
week , take the same workshops, eat together, etc... it took always 1
day , for people to realize that they share the same passion for art
and certain handcrafts, the same delight in colours threads etc,,,,
and quickly friendships were made , some of which last for years. And
even those that don`t become friends learned How much they have in
common and learned to accept and respect each other.
and Acknowledge each other`s existance.
Another example i want tyo give, is from the developement of
Fiberart. It wasn`t acepted as an Equal art until fibeartists started
to participant with Other `conventional` artists in the same
conditions , galleries etc,,
mirjam
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> snip
>>
>> When what's his name, a black convert to Judaism, asked for advice
>> about which congregation to go to, his rabbi told him to go to the
>> strictest congregation in town. They will only care if he's a Jew and
>> not about race, he said.
> ------------
> That's what I used to think, but the reality is much different.
Cindy, you forgot to append a <GREAT BIG SIGH>.
mm
He'd been a Jew for quite a few years (I don't remember how many) when
he said this, at the lecture I attended, so he must not have found it
false in that time. Perhaps there is more than one part ot the
reality. Things are rarely 100%
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> On Nov 15, 8:48=A0am, "Fiona Abrahami"
Oy, it hurts to hear such stories. When I hear them, it strengthens
_my_ resolve not to act that way. I just hope I can remember when
the situation comes up.
I think I told this story. In our neighborhood, Sanhedria Murchevet,
we did have a black family. They were planning to move to some
out-of-town location and were in out neighborhood till it was ready.
But they found the welcome so warm, that they decided to stay.
> But I don't think the solution is a separate summer camp, and I would
> not have sent my children there. I think it would exacerbate the
> situation rather than improve it. Caucasian Jews need the reminder
> that Judaism is color-blind, and by segregating Jews of other races,
> it only serves to reinforce their prejudices.
Hmmm, Fiona is for the idea, Micha and Cindy are against it. I don't
have a dog in thsi race. I am learning though, that people do not
always agree on solutins, even when they agree on the problem and
have the best interests at heart. I'm sure Fiona will not be mad at
Cindy and Micha and vice-versa. Perhaps we can learn from this
exchange that disagreement need not become a _personal_ hatefest.
The "other guy" is no less sincere in his beliefs than I am.
Joe Bruno
<fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Thought this article about summer camps for non-white Jewish kid might be of
> interest to at least a couple of regulars here (though no doubt they already
> know about B'Chol Lashon).
>
>
> Fiona
What difference does their color make to you?
You want separate drinking fountains and separate schools for Blacks,
too?
The Supreme Court says that's a no-no.
Micha Berger
> On Nov 15, 1:03ï¿œpm, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> When what's his name, a black convert to Judaism, asked for advice
>> about which congregation to go to, his rabbi told him to go to the
>> not about race, he said.
> That's what I used to think, but the reality is much different.
The difference between theory and practice is
in theory, there is no difference...
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
Fiona Abrahami
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote
> And another story - after my son had had his gerus (conversion) with a
> frum beis din, endorsed and promoted by the rosh yeshiva of our city,
> and after he had celebrated his bar mitzvah at our shul with great joy
> and fanfare and with the good will and best wishes from the entire
> congregation, and after he was a weekly presence at shabbos minyan,
> for a year or two after that, when the shul hired a new rabbi, the new
> rabbi had the chutzpah to start grilling me about my son's gerus with
> a phony story that "the board members of the synagogue were wondering"
> about my son's conversion. Grrrrrr!!!!!
Nasty! He sounds a bit dishonest, and a bit dumb, is he too stupid to
realise the whole community, board included, knew about your son's gerut?
Fiona
mirjam
>
> - Show quoted text -
Horrid story Cyndie ,, brrrrrr
mirjam
Micha Berger
> On Nov 15, 1:03ï¿œpm, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> snip
>> When what's his name, a black convert to Judaism, asked for advice
>> about which congregation to go to, his rabbi told him to go to the
>> not about race, he said.
> That's what I used to think, but the reality is much different.
In this neck of the woods, although it should be noted I live in a
town where more of the O Jews are BTs than born and raised O, overt
antisemitism is not as much of an issue as the left-wing sort.
I recall a scene in All in the Family. "Meathead" (Michael Stivik) was a
liberal college student, living in the home of his father in law, Archie
Bunker -- a man who would only use a Jewish lawyer or accountant, was
foreman at the loading dock until he bought the neighborhood bar (in a
later season), a stereotype of a certain sort of bigot. Next door was a
black family, the Jeffersons, who owned a dry cleaning store, then two
or three, and finally they were able to "Move on up to the East Side, to
a DEluxe aparatment in the sky... in their own spin-off. But in this
scene, their son Lionel lives next door, and is Meathead's friend.
At some point Lionel blows his cool and says to Michael-the-liberal
(roughly):
You're just as big of a bigot as Archie! He thinks blacks are
inferior, so he hates us. You think we're inferior, so you try to be
our daddy.
That's the kind of racism we encountered most of. The people who go out
of the way to be friendly to the black guy. The person never gets treated
as a person, just as a badge of open-mindedness, a cheftzah shel mitzvah
(an object used as a mitzvah), not as an equal. So busy making sure they
don't judge him by the color of his skin, they never bother looking at
the content of his character.
(Those handicapped people who are obnoxious often get away with their
poor personalities because people similarly make a point of being nice
to the guy in the wheelchair. To the point of forgetting there is a
guy.)
In my generation and moreso those older, yes, there was real racism of
the normal sort. Although not nearly as much as the parental kind. But
as you get younger, and we're dealing with camp-age children and their
peers, thank G-d it's increasingly rare.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure.
mi...@aishdas.org It preserves health, promotes convalescence,
http://www.aishdas.org and helps us cope with adversity.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei"
lee
I really cant believe this is being considered. I know there is a
small amount of ethnic unease in Israel over ethopian jews. But surely
efforts are being made to eradicate this rather than accomodate this.
Much like we have tried to do in the UK (& I'm sure you have in the
USA) with racism in general. These seperate summer school camps smacks
to me of as 'equal but different' as Don explained to me is an
extremely loaded phrase in the States. Myself I dont to be part of any
kind of jewish community wear wearing pointy yalmuka's is tolerated.
cindys
> > But I don't think the solution is a separate summer camp, and I would
> > not have sent my children there. I think it would exacerbate the
> > situation rather than improve it. Caucasian Jews need the reminder
> > that Judaism is color-blind, and by segregating Jews of other races,
> > it only serves to reinforce their prejudices.
> > Best regards,
> > ---Cindy S.
>
> Cyndy , i was very sad to read about your son`s being insulted by
> others, [directly or undirectly]. I believe that the only way to
> teach people , that Everybody is Unique , but has the same rights/
> duties/feelings is by sending them to the same summer schools.
> When i was an adviser about HandCraft Instructors, in the Ministry of
> Education, i insisted on a Summer Week , where all the students ,
> Muslim, Bedouin, Christian and Jews , will be together for a whole
> week , take the same workshops, eat together, etc...
That sounds like a great program, but I feel compelled to point out
here that my sons have been treated badly by fellow Jews! And my older
son has been treated badly by Orthodox Jews when he's wearing the
black hat uniform!!!
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 15, 1:03 pm, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> > snip
> >> When what's his name, a black convert to Judaism, asked for advice
> >> about which congregation to go to, his rabbi told him to go to the
> >> not about race, he said.
> > That's what I used to think, but the reality is much different.
>
> In this neck of the woods, although it should be noted I live in a
> town where more of the O Jews are BTs than born and raised O, overt
> antisemitism is not as much of an issue as the left-wing sort.
>
> I recall a scene in All in the Family. "Meathead" (Michael Stivik) was a
> liberal college student, living in the home of his father in law, Archie
> Bunker -- a man who would only use a Jewish lawyer or accountant, was
> foreman at the loading dock until he bought the neighborhood bar (in a
> later season), a stereotype of a certain sort of bigot. Next door was a
> black family, the Jeffersons, who owned a dry cleaning store, then two
> or three, and finally they were able to "Move on up to the East Side, to
> a DEluxe aparatment in the sky... in their own spin-off. But in this
> scene, their son Lionel lives next door, and is Meathead's friend.
>
> At some point Lionel blows his cool and says to Michael-the-liberal
> (roughly):
> You're just as big of a bigot as Archie! He thinks blacks are
> inferior, so he hates us. You think we're inferior, so you try to be
> our daddy.
And in years gone by, I was unfortunately guilty of this. When I was
in college, I had this beat-up old Plymouth (I won't say the year). I
never loaned my car to anybody else because of concerns about
insurance problems, should there ever be an accident. At one point, I
had a black roommate. One night she asked me if she and her friends
could borrow my car to go out for the evening. I didn't feel
comfortable about it, but I said okay. They returned the car several
hours later, with no harm done. The next morning, she said to me, "I
know that if I had been white, you never would have loaned me the car.
The only reason you said yes was because I'm black, and you didn't
want to seem like you were a bigot." She was absolutely right.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
<fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote
Apparently. He apparently acted impulsively WITHOUT first consulting
the board of trustees because they would have told him.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
mm
Berger) wrote:
>cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 15, 1:03 pm, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> snip
>>> When what's his name, a black convert to Judaism, asked for advice
>>> about which congregation to go to, his rabbi told him to go to the
>>> strictest congregation in town. They will only care if he's a Jew and
>>> not about race, he said.
>
>> That's what I used to think, but the reality is much different.
>
>In this neck of the woods, although it should be noted I live in a
>town where more of the O Jews are BTs than born and raised O, overt
>antisemitism is not as much of an issue as the left-wing sort.
>
>I recall a scene in All in the Family. "Meathead" (Michael Stivik) was a
>liberal college student, living in the home of his father in law, Archie
>Bunker -- a man who would only use a Jewish lawyer or accountant, was
>foreman at the loading dock until he bought the neighborhood bar (in a
>later season), a stereotype of a certain sort of bigot. Next door was a
>black family, the Jeffersons, who owned a dry cleaning store, then two
>or three, and finally they were able to "Move on up to the East Side, to
>a DEluxe aparatment in the sky... in their own spin-off. But in this
>scene, their son Lionel lives next door, and is Meathead's friend.
>
>At some point Lionel blows his cool and says to Michael-the-liberal
>(roughly):
> You're just as big of a bigot as Archie! He thinks blacks are
> inferior, so he hates us. You think we're inferior, so you try to be
> our daddy.
I remember this scene, but certainly not in such detail!
It's similar to complaints, maybe some at the time but the only one or
two I know about are 10 or 20 years after the fact, that white civil
rights workers wouldn't even let black civil rights workers do the
typing**. I only heard one black person complain about this on a radio
interview, probably as part of a book tour.
**For those too young to remember the civil right movement, "typing"
means "keyboarding", but on "typewriters", which were like
self-contained printers, not connected to a computer. Not even
wirelessly. No one knows how they actually worked.
I certainly understand why Lionel was annoyed, and why he blew up at
Michael, but Michae's kind of racism is a heck of a lot better than
Archie's. And Archie himself wouldn't have done anything violent.
There are about 50 levels of racism, and 50 of antisemitism. (Though
for self-knowing literalists like me and for subliminal literalists,
the helpful efforts of Michael meet the def. or racism but couldn't be
antisemitism, because they would be pro-Jew and not anti-Jew.
Antisemitism requires anti thoughts or actualy anti behaviour.
>That's the kind of racism we encountered most of. The people who go out
>of the way to be friendly to the black guy. The person never gets treated
>as a person, just as a badge of open-mindedness, a cheftzah shel mitzvah
>(an object used as a mitzvah), not as an equal. So busy making sure they
>don't judge him by the color of his skin, they never bother looking at
>the content of his character.
>
>(Those handicapped people who are obnoxious often get away with their
>poor personalities because people similarly make a point of being nice
>to the guy in the wheelchair. To the point of forgetting there is a
>guy.)
>In my generation and moreso those older, yes, there was real racism of
>the normal sort. Although not nearly as much as the parental kind. But
>as you get younger, and we're dealing with camp-age children and their
>peers, thank G-d it's increasingly rare.
>
>Tir'u baTov!
>-Micha
--
Meir
mm
Was that the only reason, not seeming like a bigot? Did her family
have as much money as yours? Is that why she had no car of her own?
Comparing whites and blacks of similar income, blacks have much less
wealth, much less money in the bank, or stocks, or investment real
estate, and I'm sure you either knew or had a feel that that was true.
At the top, you say "unfortunately". Why? Would it have been better
if you hadn't lent her the car? This was your roommate and maybe she
knew you didn't lend your car to others, but if she hadn't known or
hadn't been so clever, she wouldn't have said what she did at the end;
she would have just been grateful, a bonding experience between you
two.
Wasn't she grateful anyhow?
BTW, I never lend my car. But when I was working on a political
campaign, it seemed like the kind of thing people did, everyone
pulling for the campaign, so I was willing to do it. I insisted on
watching the ~18-year old guy drive, and he drove very carefully.
That should have been my clue that he didn't have enough experience.
I lent him the car and within 2 hours he wrecked it. He ran a stop
sign in a school zone and was hit broadside by cross traffic. It's
true a van was tall and obscuring the stop sign, but he lived in this
small city all his life and should have known he was about to cross a
bigger street. Then State Farm insurance wouldn't pay me what the
damages really were, for a car that was $2000 new and only 5 years
old, and after I reluctantly agreed to 400 dollars, they sent me a
check for 300. The State Farm agent also lied to my mother later,
claiming falsely that they needed my signature to restore my insurance
after I got back to the USA, and he admitted it was false a few year
after that. This had left me in Texas with my car and no insurance.
A couple years later, I traded cars with my brother for a day, I
forget why, but I certainly couldn't begrudge my brother the car since
he had given it to me (when he went to Viet Nam and decided to buy a
new car when he got back. While he had the car, the rear license
plate bracket got loose and fell off, the only license plate the car
had. I made another one out of masonite, painted white with black
letters and sent away for a duplicate plate, but before it came the
city of NY towed the car away and crushed it.
Still if I didnt' own only convertbles, I might lend the car. But
last time I needed another car there were only 2 possibilities in all
of Baltimore, and one got sold before I got there. The time before
that no better. In 1980, I had to look in 8 NY counties and 5 or 6 NJ
counties to find even one car I wanted.
So I don't lend my car.
>Best regards,
>---Cindy S.
Steve Goldfarb
>I agree that white Jews (sorry, I don't like the word Caucasian, it's pretty
>meaningless) need to be reminded, or even told in the first place, that
>Judaism is colour blind, I think camps like these are a good idea because it
>enables Jewish kids of color to network and know that there are other kids
>going through similar experiences. They could swap coping strategies, and it
>breaks down the feeling of isolation. Your son may tell you he's OK and that
>he's used to it, but it must still hurt deep down inside, and it's a
>constant pressure.
So you think the word "white" more meaningful than the word "Caucasian?"
:-) I don't think either word is particularly useful.
Anyway I hear what you're saying and certainly it's a tough problem -
networking is a great idea, but networking doesn't have to be
segregationist, does it?
Bottom line is most people are simply ignorant - as Cindy's examples point
out. And sending all the "colored" kids away to camp so that they never
interact with the ignorant kids does nothing to resolve the ignorance.
Maybe that guy who assumed Cindy's son didn't know the bracha actually
learned something from that experience. Maybe all those freshman wondering
"who's the Chinese kid" have actually learned something, too - something
they never would out about if they hadn't interacted with Cindy's son.
This is not fair - but it's the unfortunate truth that if the minority (of
any type) wants to be accepted as an equal - or just acknowledged as a
human - by the majority, then what they need to do is get in the
majority's face. They need to stand up and say "look at me - interact with
me - be my friend." No question that's tough. No question that's not fair.
But what's the alternative? Should white Jews be seeking out colored Jews
and saying "Hi, my swarthy cousin, would you be my friend?" How freaking
condescending is that?
No, the only way progress will ever be made is if these "colored" Jews sit
down next to the "white" Jews, and say "Hi, I'm so-and-so, and I'm just as
Jewish as you. Deal with it."
That said, I totally agree that networking is a great idea. Just need to
find a positive way to do it, one that doesn't involve exclusion.
--s
--
Micha Berger
> I certainly understand why Lionel was annoyed, and why he blew up at
> Michael, but Michae's kind of racism is a heck of a lot better than
> Archie's. And Archie himself wouldn't have done anything violent.
This is a shift of topic. We were talking about raising Jews who have
obvious African, Hispanic or Far Eastern genetic makeup.
And being someone's "chesed project" gets in the way of becoming their
friend. Which would be an argument in favor os a camp like the one
mentioned at the head of the thread, where all the kids are equally
in the minority for Jews.
My problem would be that you'd win the summer, but lose the war. Being
in the same clique, going to the same camp as some of your classmates,
the same Bnei Akiva / Pirchei / Bnos / NCSY groups, etc... not reminding
classmates that the child is "other", I think is far more effective,
even if harder in the short run.
As already pointed out, what I'm saying may only be true of my son and
his situation, and perhaps someone else needs something else. "Raise
each child according to his ways."
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Abe Kohen
<mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:2009Nov1...@mm.huji.ac.il...
> Hmmm, Fiona is for the idea, Micha and Cindy are against it. I don't
> have a dog in thsi race. I am learning though, that people do not
We ALL have a dog in the race. Kol yisrael areivim ...
Best,
Abe
sheldonlg
The issue is not black and white. Both arguments have merit. I guess
it is good for those children that will benefit and not good for those
that won't.
Abe Kohen
hunter/gatherers. That is, of course, no excuse for the treatment your sons
get, since the Torah teaches us otherwise if the Jew - who doesn't look like
us - was born a Jew, and al achat kama v'kama if s/he is a convert.
All I can say is that I sympathize and sometimes life sucks.
Best,
Abe
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:931ee9f5-a084-4ab2...@d5g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
Abe Kohen
"sheldonlg" <shel...@giganews.com> wrote in message
news:MOWdnZZrJuA3apzW...@giganews.com...
Are you agreeing with me? Disagreeing with me? Or is this just a
non-sequitir with a bad pun?
Best,
Abe
cindys
> Our primitive minds are trained to discriminate from the days we were
> hunter/gatherers. That is, of course, no excuse for the treatment your sons
> get, since the Torah teaches us otherwise if the Jew - who doesn't look like
> us - was born a Jew, and al achat kama v'kama if s/he is a convert.
>
> All I can say is that I sympathize and sometimes life sucks.
My older son is very happy to be Jewish and has never regretted this
decision. He will be graduating from yeshiva this coming spring, and
we wanted to give him a really special graduation gift. So, we decided
the gift would be a vacation to anywhere in the world he wanted to
visit (that was do-able, obviously). I thought for sure he would pick
a trip to Israel, but he wasn't interested. He wants to visit one of
the Far Eastern countries to experience being in a place where
everybody looks like [him].
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> "Fiona Abrahami" wrote:
>> "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote
>>
>> > And another story - after my son had had his gerus (conversion) with a
>> > frum beis din, endorsed and promoted by the rosh yeshiva of our city,
>> > and after he had celebrated his bar mitzvah at our shul with great joy
>> > and fanfare and with the good will and best wishes from the entire
>> > congregation, and after he was a weekly presence at shabbos minyan,
>> > for a year or two after that, when the shul hired a new rabbi, the new
>> > rabbi had the chutzpah to start grilling me about my son's gerus with
>> > a phony story that "the board members of the synagogue were wondering"
>>
>> Nasty! He sounds a bit dishonest, and a bit dumb, is he too stupid to
>> realise the whole community, board included, knew about your son's gerut?
> Apparently. He apparently acted impulsively WITHOUT first consulting
> the board of trustees because they would have told him.
So he wasn't being totally honest when he said "the board members
of the synagogue were wondering". :-(
Fiona Abrahami
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote
And this vindicates the idea of the summer camps this thread is about...
Fiona
Fiona Abrahami
<mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote
> cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>> "Fiona Abrahami" wrote:
I am happy to defer to Cindy and Micha (their kids, their call) as my
perspective is somewhat different (I would be interested to hear what their
kids opinions on the matter, though), nevertheless, they live with the issue
I am only a has-been in this area which merely qualifies me as a do-gooder
busy-body today.
Fiona
mirjam
> In <wY_Lm.20166$351.4...@newsfe24.ams2> "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
> >I agree that white Jews (sorry, I don't like the word Caucasian, it's pretty
> >meaningless) need to be reminded, or even told in the first place, that
> >Judaism is colour blind, I think camps like these are a good idea because it
> >enables Jewish kids of color to network and know that there are other kids
> >going through similar experiences. They could swap coping strategies, and it
> >breaks down the feeling of isolation. Your son may tell you he's OK and that
> >he's used to it, but it must still hurt deep down inside, and it's a
> >constant pressure.
>
know are at least Olive coloured ,,, Polish literature always decribed
Jewish woman as loking Oriental and Darkish .
mirjam
>
sheldonlg
Neither. It is a comment just as it is. Both arguments have pros and
cons. I don't see a pun.
Micha Berger
>>But as his dad, I think that sending him to that kind of camp is a
>>horrible idea.
> Agreed. On a similar note, my first year at Brandeis I've asked for an
> observant Jewish roommate (I lived on campus). For the following
> years, I did not. I think that the latter was a smarter choice.
I don't think the notes are all that similar. There are potential isues
to navigate sharing a room with someone who listens to the stereo /
watches TV on Shabbos (killing any chance of a Shabbos mood in the dorm
room) and prepares non-kosher foods in the kitchen.
Sharing an apartment with someone of a different race doestn't create
those logistical problems.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
mi...@aishdas.org excessive anxiety.... Emunah decreases anxiety:
http://www.aishdas.org 'The Almighty is my source of salvation; I will
Fax: (270) 514-1507 trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya
cindys
> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
> > "Fiona Abrahami" wrote:
> >> "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote
>
> >> > And another story - after my son had had his gerus (conversion) with a
> >> > frum beis din, endorsed and promoted by the rosh yeshiva of our city,
> >> > and after he had celebrated his bar mitzvah at our shul with great joy
> >> > and fanfare and with the good will and best wishes from the entire
> >> > congregation, and after he was a weekly presence at shabbos minyan,
> >> > for a year or two after that, when the shul hired a new rabbi, the new
> >> > rabbi had the chutzpah to start grilling me about my son's gerus with
> >> > a phony story that "the board members of the synagogue were wondering"
> >> > about my son's conversion. =A0Grrrrrr!!!!!
>
> >> Nasty! He sounds a bit dishonest, and a bit dumb, is he too stupid to
> >> realise the whole community, board included, knew about your son's gerut?
> > ---------------
> > Apparently. He apparently acted impulsively WITHOUT first consulting
> > the board of trustees because they would have told him.
>
> So he wasn't being totally honest when he said "the board members
> of the synagogue were wondering". :-(
That's the understatement of the year. In the year preceding my son's
conversion, the membership of the congregation kept asking me when was
my son going to the beis din already (because they couldn't wait to
count him for the minyan). The vice president of the synagogue was the
one who taught my son the Sephardic torah trope. The chief rabbi on
the beis din was personally known to the rosh yeshiva in our city. In
fact, he had once been his student. The shul rabbi at the time of my
son's conversion/bar mitzvah had been his rebbe (gemara teacher) for
several years, and they had a very close relationship. The entire
congregation turned out for his bar mitzvah in their shul the week
after his conversion. It was a community-wide celebration.
So, no, I don't think the board members were "wondering" about my
son's conversion.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Don Levey
> In the year preceding my son's
> conversion, the membership of the congregation kept asking me when was
> my son going to the beis din already (because they couldn't wait to
> count him for the minyan). The vice president of the synagogue was the
> one who taught my son the Sephardic torah trope. The chief rabbi on
> the beis din was personally known to the rosh yeshiva in our city. In
> fact, he had once been his student. The shul rabbi at the time of my
> son's conversion/bar mitzvah had been his rebbe (gemara teacher) for
> several years, and they had a very close relationship. The entire
> congregation turned out for his bar mitzvah in their shul the week
> after his conversion. It was a community-wide celebration.
>
--
Don Levey, Framingam MA If knowledge is power,
(email address in header works) and power corrupts, then...
NOTE: Don't send mail to to sal...@the-leveys.us
GnuPG public key: http://www.the-leveys.us:6080/keys/don-dsakey.asc
cindys
<fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote
It's not necessarily about being Jewish, though. It's about growing up
in the USA where he is a member of racial minority.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
mm
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>On Nov 15, 2:07 pm, cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 15, 8:48 am, "Fiona Abrahami"
>> snip
>>
>>
>>
>> > I don't know which planet you live on, but obviously this issue is below
>> > your radar. In my experience - which is precisely why I've posted this -
>> > that division you fear already exists and has existed for a long, long time.
>> > As the article says many non-white Jews find that white Jews automatically
>> > assume that they are converts, of course some of them are, but those who are
>> > not but are born Jews find this hurtful (how would you feel, if every time
>> > you met a new person in the Jewish community they assumed you were a
>> > convert?).
>>
>> Or that you were a neophyte in perpetuity? (i.e., new at this forever)
>>
>> >Even those who are converts find these assumptions negative,
>> > because it limits their freedom within the community, and they find they
>> > always have to be ready to explain themselves - I've seen both scenarios,
>> > many times.
>>
>> Yup. Our most recent incident was at Simchas Torah. My older son (who
>> was wearing the black hat uniform) and I were in the hallway, taking a
>> brief break from the Sephardic service (the local Sephardic shul is
>> temporarily renting space from an Ashkenazic shul). Someone from the
>> Ashkenazic shul whom we did not know approached my son and asked him
>> if he would like to have an aliyah at the Ashkenazic shul.
That's nice, right?
>>When my son
>> said "no thanks," the guy started to pressure him and offered to help
>> him say the beracha.
There's a shul in Baltimore whose rabbi, when he first got here and
maybe still, taught at the local very successful outreach
organization. I'm not sure if his shul was having services or not
then, but after a year I heard about his shul and that it was very
popular with baalei tshuvah. Eventually I was there, maybe because I
was invited to someone's house nearby, and the guy next to me was
wearing the black hat uniform. And I wasn't trying to pay attention
but after a while I notice that he could barely say the Hebrew. He
was slow and made a lot of mistakes. And I then realized it is easier
to change clothes than it is to learn things.
IOW, I'll bet many of the people who turn down an aliyah do so because
their Hebrew is weak and they don't want to embarrass themsselves, and
that with others he's had success in offering to help and they've been
happy about it too. It's better than the alternative, which I went
through from grades 7 to 9, when we were obliged to go to Shacharis on
Sundays and there were a bunch of men there too, not one of whom
offered to help with putting on t'filling correctly or anything else.
At the time I didnt' realize that they could have helped. Later I
noticed that, and still later I realized that, if they noticed a
problem, even adults can be embarrassed to offer. They think, I don't
know this kid. Why doesn't his sunday school teacher, who's right over
there, help him? Or someone who knows him? (Come to think of it, I
don't recall the sunday school teachers going to Sunday morning minyan
either. What a good example they set, but that's another story.)
>> Initially, I thought that was a really strange thing for someone to
>> say. Then, it dawned on me why he had said it. I responded, "He
>> doesn't need help with the beracha. He's graduating from yeshiva this
>> year." If I had it to do again, I would have added "and for the
>> record, my son [with his flat nose and epicanthic folds], can probably
>> learn circles around you." (Yeah, I know...whatabitch).
>>
>> My son wasn't concerned, though. He told me he was used to that sort
>> of thing. With each new school year in yeshiva, the first thing all
>> the freshmen want to know is "Who's the Chinese [sic] kid?" Or
>> sometimes, (the chutzpah), the new yeshiva freshmen will ask me
>> personal questions about my children (right in front of them, as if
>> they weren't there), like "Did you adopt them? Are they brothers?"
Not that you said you did, but ftr I dont' think you should let them
get away with that. "Hasn't someone taught you its rude to talk about
someone in his presence without including him?" Or however the rule
goes. "If you want to know about my sons, ask them, but I must remind
you that there are questions that you wouldn't want yourself to be
asked, and you shouldnt' ask them of others." Something like that.
>> I want to smack them. This year, one of the new freshmen said to my son,
>> "I'll bet you're really good at math." Do these kids come from a
>> different planet? What a pack of idiots.
People only know what they know, and these are children. They hear
about Asian kids doing well on math and think maybe its genetic. Who
knows, maybe it is. Yeah, I know there are exceptions, but that
doesn't disprove it.
And it's a positive stereotype. I know you're complaining aobut hte
stereotyping and not about its positivity, but the positivity would
makes it a lot harder for me to complain.
>> And then of course, there was the time my son spent a weekend with his
>> friend in Brooklyn (I've told this story on this forum in the past),
>> and they davened in a chassidishe shul, and even though my son, again,
>> was wearing the black hat uniform, the chassidim all turned around and
>> stared at him openly, and when he wished them a "gut shabbos," they
>> did not respond.
>>
>> But I don't think the solution is a separate summer camp, and I would
>> not have sent my children there. I think it would exacerbate the
>> situation rather than improve it. Caucasian Jews need the reminder
>> that Judaism is color-blind, and by segregating Jews of other races,
>> it only serves to reinforce their prejudices.
I certainly agreed with you. I still do, and I don't remember much
about the article that was posted, and I only went to cmap one summer
for one week and another for two, but these days people have more
money or they spend more, so if they went to the non=white camp for
one week and a general Jewish camp for 4, maybe that would be the best
of both worlds. I don't really think so, but I'm suggesting it for
others to think about.
>> Best regards,
>> ---Cindy S.
>-----------------
>And another story - after my son had had his gerus (conversion) with a
>frum beis din, endorsed and promoted by the rosh yeshiva of our city,
>and after he had celebrated his bar mitzvah at our shul with great joy
>and fanfare and with the good will and best wishes from the entire
>congregation, and after he was a weekly presence at shabbos minyan,
>for a year or two after that, when the shul hired a new rabbi, the new
>rabbi had the chutzpah to start grilling me about my son's gerus with
>a phony story that "the board members of the synagogue were wondering"
>about my son's conversion. Grrrrrr!!!!!
I hope you don't just growl inside. I would say, "There's nothing to
worry about. Ask rabbi a, and b or c, who were the beis din." And if
he asked more, I'd say "Just talk to them." Yes, if he's going to
make up a story about the board wondering, he should have made up one
that's not clearly false.
I haven't been in your situations, but I don't like to be silent at
certain times. The only ones that come to mind are littering. ONce
when a guy through paper on the ground and then looked at me, I said
"Don't look at me for approval", because I think that's what he was
doing. Another time, I'm walkign through a shopping center parking
lot and a bag from a fast foot restaurant comes out the passenger
window and spills all over the blacktop. I bent down and looked inthe
window at the girl in the first seat and the boy behind the wheel, and
said "You are really are a pig, aren't you." (Then I went to the
Radio Shack and hid for 15 minutes) I don't expect she got out to pick
that stuff up, but she'll think of me next time she is about to do
that. These are not all parallel except that I think they are all
"teachable moments".
>Best regards,
>---Cindy S.
--
mm
asked, What's it like up there? Do you play basketball? and one
other. I think she said that she asked the people back, What's it
like down there. I wonder how well Do you play marbles? would
work.
mm
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>On Nov 16, 2:33 am, mirjam <mir...@actcom.co.il> wrote:
>> > But I don't think the solution is a separate summer camp, and I would
>> > not have sent my children there. I think it would exacerbate the
>> > situation rather than improve it. Caucasian Jews need the reminder
>> > that Judaism is color-blind, and by segregating Jews of other races,
>> > it only serves to reinforce their prejudices.
>> > Best regards,
>> > ---Cindy S.
>>
>> Cyndy , i was very sad to read about your son`s being insulted by
>> others, [directly or undirectly]. I believe that the only way to
>> teach people , that Everybody is Unique , but has the same rights/
>> duties/feelings is by sending them to the same summer schools.
>> When i was an adviser about HandCraft Instructors, in the Ministry of
>> Education, i insisted on a Summer Week , where all the students ,
>> Muslim, Bedouin, Christian and Jews , will be together for a whole
>> week , take the same workshops, eat together, etc...
>---------------
>That sounds like a great program, but I feel compelled to point out
>here that my sons have been treated badly by fellow Jews! And my older
>son has been treated badly by Orthodox Jews when he's wearing the
>black hat uniform!!!
This is terrible. Someone needs to talk to their teacher or rosh
yeshiva. who then need to set these kids straight. This is not at all
the way a Jew should behave.
In my city, I heard about from someone without money that the day
school -- I don't want to say that it's C but I aslso don't want to
leave the impression it is O or R -- atudents, most of whom came from
families with fairly much money, would wear designer label clothes to
school and then tease in some manner** one or more of the kids who
couldn't afford that. So what did they do? AFAIK, all they did is
have meetigs and decide to institute uniforms.
**The teasing may have been subtle or indirect enough that the kids
who did it thought they had avoided anything imporoper, if they
thought about it. LIke the boys in the other post who were, they felt
I"m sure, "just asking simple questions, like did you adopt them."
While uniforms would be okay for a football team, a Jewish school
should have found this to be a teachable moment, to teach You shall
not whiten the face, I think applies, and whatever other commanments
they were breaking when they did this. I'm pretty sure this day
school actually spends time on commandments, at least I assume it
does, unlikw my sunday schools. But I'll bet they skip most of them.
While trying to identify people by who is well off and who is poor is
somewhat distasteful, they have probably identified them already,
because at least one of the kids was getting a reduction in tuitiion,
and if all but the richest got that, his was more. So I think a
discussion of this in class might have embarrassed the 'poor' kids
further, including ones who possibly had never been teased. So I
would have arranged for all the non-poor kids to be talked to as a
group but separately, during lunch or after school and I would have
read them the riot act.
What is the point of going to a Jewish school if they are alllowed to
behave unJewishly with no censure?
>Best regards,
>---Cindy S.
mm
Berger) wrote:
>Yisroel Markov <ey.m...@munginame.com> wrote:
>>>But as his dad, I think that sending him to that kind of camp is a
>>>horrible idea.
>
>> Agreed. On a similar note, my first year at Brandeis I've asked for an
>> observant Jewish roommate (I lived on campus). For the following
>> years, I did not. I think that the latter was a smarter choice.
It just have gone pretty well then. And Brandeis takes 4 year, aiui.
>
>I don't think the notes are all that similar. There are potential isues
>to navigate sharing a room with someone who listens to the stereo /
>watches TV on Shabbos (killing any chance of a Shabbos mood in the dorm
>room) and prepares non-kosher foods in the kitchen.
>
>Sharing an apartment with someone of a different race doestn't create
>those logistical problems.
I dated a girl who had a whole house and a Jewish roommate, who came
for a day and stayed for months and i think wasnt' even paying rent,
who used to misplace or even treif her dishes or silverware. And each
time the girl (well, if we weren't dating, she'd be a woman.) would
have to kasher the stuff she had ruined, and the other one kept saying
she didnt' know what the big deal was.
I think she finally got her to leave but I don't know why she didn't
kick her out of the house a lot earlier. I think I asked and she said
"I hate to do that."
>Tir'u baTov!
>-Micha
--
Meir
Fiona Abrahami
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote
> "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote
>
>> > decision. He will be graduating from yeshiva this coming spring, and
>> > we wanted to give him a really special graduation gift. So, we decided
>> > the gift would be a vacation to anywhere in the world he wanted to
>> > visit (that was do-able, obviously). I thought for sure he would pick
>> > a trip to Israel, but he wasn't interested. He wants to visit one of
>> > the Far Eastern countries to experience being in a place where
>> > everybody looks like [him].
>>
>> And this vindicates the idea of the summer camps this thread is about...
> --------------
> It's not necessarily about being Jewish, though. It's about growing up
> in the USA where he is a member of racial minority.
Sure, I get that, but cal v'homer, if he feels this way about being a
minority in the USA, how much more so might he feel it about being a
minority of a minority. But I'm well out of order to even hint at such a
thing, so I'll shut up now.
Fiona
cindys
> >here that my sons have been treated badly by fellow Jews! And my older
> >son has been treated badly by Orthodox Jews when he's wearing the
> >black hat uniform!!!
>
> This is terrible. Someone needs to talk to their teacher or rosh
> yeshiva. who then need to set these kids straight. This is not at all
> the way a Jew should behave.
No, it's not. So who's going to set the middle-aged chassidim in
Brooklyn straight?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
Well, clearly my younger son didn't want to be a minority of a
minority. And that's why he's not Jewish, and he's going to public
school. My older son, OTOH, enjoys being unique most of the time, but
every now and then, he would like to just be one of the masses. It's
not an issue that he frets about 24/7, but it does come up every now
and then. As I've posted before, my son would like a shidduch with an
Orthodox Jewish Asian girl. He wants to marry an observant Jew, but he
would like one who looks like him (his words).
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Abe Kohen
Best,
Abe
mm
Maybe Moshe can write them a letter?
sheldonlg
> "sheldonlg" <shel...@giganews.com> wrote in message
> news:uY-dnRdxkPriNJ_W...@giganews.com...
>> Abe Kohen wrote:
>>> "sheldonlg" <shel...@giganews.com> wrote in message
>>> news:MOWdnZZrJuA3apzW...@giganews.com...
>>>> Abe Kohen wrote:
>>>>> <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
>>>>> news:2009Nov1...@mm.huji.ac.il...
>>>>>> Hmmm, Fiona is for the idea, Micha and Cindy are against it. I don't
>>>>>> have a dog in thsi race. I am learning though, that people do not
>>>>> We ALL have a dog in the race. Kol yisrael areivim ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Abe
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> The issue is not black and white. Both arguments have merit. I guess
>>>> it is good for those children that will benefit and not good for those
>>>> that won't.
>>> Are you agreeing with me? Disagreeing with me? Or is this just a
>>> non-sequitir with a bad pun?
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Abe
>>>
>>>
>> Neither. It is a comment just as it is. Both arguments have pros and
>> cons. I don't see a pun.
>
> "The issue is not black and white."
>
fla...@verizon.net
On 15-Nov-2009, "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> As the article says many non-white Jews find that white Jews automatically
>
> assume that they are converts, of course some of them are, but those who
> are
> not but are born Jews find this hurtful (how would you feel, if everytime
> you met a new person in the Jewish community they assumed you were a
> convert?).
If said new person behaved correctly, it would make no difference.
Sigh.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 15-Nov-2009, cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> This year, one of the new freshmen said to my son,
> "I'll bet you're really good at math."
Please, *please* - next time, PLEASE have him answer:
"Well, sure - aren't all Jews good with numbers?"
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 15-Nov-2009, "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> I agree that white Jews (sorry, I don't like the word Caucasian, it's
> pretty
> meaningless)
Except that so is white.
Maybe "European"?
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 17-Nov-2009, mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> I'm reminded of some tall person who said that every tall person gets
> asked, What's it like up there? Do you play basketball? and one
> other. I think she said that she asked the people back, What's it
> like down there. I wonder how well Do you play marbles? would
> work.
I always used to say, "The air quality is much better -
too bad for you!" But, as I get older, I find more
women are getting to be around my height than when
I was young.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 16-Nov-2009, mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> **For those too young to remember the civil right movement, "typing"
> means "keyboarding", but on "typewriters", which were like
> self-contained printers, not connected to a computer. Not even
> wirelessly. No one knows how they actually worked.
HAHAHAHA!
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 16-Nov-2009, Joe Bruno <joeb...@usa.com> wrote:
> On Nov 15, 3:58�am, "Fiona Abrahami"
> <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > Thought this article about summer camps for non-white Jewish kid might
> > be of
> > interest to at least a couple of regulars here (though no doubt they
> > already
> > know about B'Chol Lashon).
> >
> > <http://www.thejc.com/news/world-news/21902/mixed-race-jewish-children...>
> >
> > Fiona
>
> What difference does their color make to you?
> You want separate drinking fountains and separate schools for Blacks,
> too?
> The Supreme Court says that's a no-no.
So, you didn't read the article, but
decided you knew all about it.
Susan
mm
When the census form comes next year, I'm considering entering Asian.
After all, that's where my family is from.
But I know they'll take it the wrong way, and I also don't want to
confuse them.
fla...@verizon.net
On 15-Nov-2009, cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> And another story - after my son had had his gerus (conversion) with a
> frum beis din, endorsed and promoted by the rosh yeshiva of our city,
> and after he had celebrated his bar mitzvah at our shul with great joy
> and fanfare and with the good will and best wishes from the entire
> congregation, and after he was a weekly presence at shabbos minyan,
> for a year or two after that, when the shul hired a new rabbi, the new
> rabbi had the chutzpah to start grilling me about my son's gerus with
> a phony story that "the board members of the synagogue were wondering"
> about my son's conversion. Grrrrrr!!!!!
I suppose you weren't nasty enough to call him a liar to his face?
Susan
Fiona Abrahami
<fla...@verizon.net> wrote
I dislike "European" as a descriptor of visual appearance for the same
reason, it's geographically based rather than genetics based. "European"
would imply for instance that someone from Gibraltar has more in common
genetically with someone from Trondheim than someone from Tangier, which of
course, would be nonsense.
Fiona
Fiona Abrahami
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote
>
> As I've posted before, my son would like a shidduch with an
> Orthodox Jewish Asian girl. He wants to marry an observant Jew, but he
> would like one who looks like him (his words).
When the time is right, I hope he finds what he's looking for. I know of at
least one Jewish-Asian family in the Bombay-Baghdadi community in Singapore.
Now there's a Asian country you can take him to, it's English speaking
(officially)
and it has a frum kehillah too.
Fiona
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> Abe Kohen wrote:
>> "sheldonlg" <shel...@giganews.com> wrote in message
snip
>>> The issue is not black and white. Both arguments have merit. I guess it
>>> is good for those children that will benefit and not good for those that
>>> won't.
>>
>> Are you agreeing with me? Disagreeing with me? Or is this just a
>> non-sequitir with a bad pun?
>
> Neither. It is a comment just as it is. Both arguments have pros and
> cons. I don't see a pun.
"black and white".
HTH
--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
lee
<fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> <flav...@verizon.net> wrote
Maybe just Jews
Micha Berger
Gary Treudau has a character in Doonesbury named Kim. She was a airlifted
out of Vietnam in a strip in 1973, and was adopted and raised in the US.
She is now Mike Doonesbury's tropy wife, who also doubles as her
step-daughter's best friend.
Back when she was in HS, Treudau had the principle congratulate her and
and two others for getting perfects scores on their SATs. One classmate
was jealous: it was her Asian culture, her parents applied emphasis on
her education, he lacked these advantages.
Her reply: What are you talking about? My last name is "Rosenthal"!
Him: Oh, Jewish. Big difference!
BTW, Doonesbury.com describes her as a
Vietnamese-Jewish-Southern-Californian American.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger "And you shall love H' your G-d with your whole
mi...@aishdas.org heart, your entire soul, and all you own."
http://www.aishdas.org Love is not two who look at each other,
Fax: (270) 514-1507 It is two who look in the same direction.
mm
It might be a good idea to write ahead, and make sure the girl or
girls they think right is in town when the Stein family arrives. (Are
you all going.)
People make their own good luck.
>
>
>Fiona
cindys
> On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:33:13 +0000 (UTC), "Fiona Abrahami"
>
> <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> >> As I've posted before, my son would like a shidduch with an
> >> Orthodox Jewish Asian girl. He wants to marry an observant Jew, but he
> >> would like one who looks like him (his words).
>
> >When the time is right, I hope he finds what he's looking for. I know of at
> >least one Jewish-Asian family in the Bombay-Baghdadi community in Singapore.
> >Now there's a Asian country you can take him to, it's English speaking
> >(officially)
> >and it has a frum kehillah too.
>
> It might be a good idea to write ahead, and make sure the girl or
> girls they think right is in town when the Stein family arrives. (Are
> you all going.)
>
> People make their own good luck.
Thank you, but my son is too young to get married. We are not all
going (couldn't afford it). Only my son and I are going. I never
realized there was a Bombay-Baghdadi community in Singapore, but I
think were we're more likely to end up in Beijing or Bangkok (or
possible Tibet). The reason for this is that we are looking for a
glatt kosher escorted tour. This really limits us in terms of where we
can go (where such tours are available) and when we can go (when the
tour is available).
Since tour companies are in business to make money, I suspect kosher
companies plan tours on the basis of which are popular destinations
for glatt kosher-keeping Jews. Apparently, China and Thailand are
popular destinations, as are Italy, Spain, Morocco, Russia, Greece,
India, Australia, and the Republic of South Africa. South Korea and
Taiwan are apparently not very popular. Nor are most destinations in
South America, the possible exception being Peru. Costa Rica is
extremely popular. Cruises are very popular, but we're not looking for
a cruise.
We really, really wanted to go to Egypt to see the pyramids, and we
may try to arrange that, but to the best of my knowledge, there is no
glatt kosher trip to Egypt (even though there is an Israeli tour
company that routinely arranges nonkosher motorcoach tours out of
Jerusalem and Tel Aviv to both Egypt and Jordan (Petra). The other
thing we would have considered is one week in Israel and one week in
Egypt. If we did that, we could do Israel on our own, but then, there
is the issue of Egypt... the motorcoach ride is 12 hours up and 12
hours back. That wasn't how we wanted to spend two days of the
vacation. There are flights from Ben Gurion to Cairo which cost around
$400 each roundtrip. The Israeli-arranged guided tours of Egypt are
either four days (including the motorcoach travel time) or eight days.
We would definitely want a tour, as I don't think my son and I want to
spend a week wandering around Egypt by ourselves.
I have yet to see any kind of a kosher trip to Egypt, save for a two-
week glatt kosher cruise that includes Egypt as one of seven ports of
call. The price for this cruise is astronomical. And since the entire
cruise is not a dedicated glatt kosher cruise (there is a dedicated
kosher kitchen and a mashgiach temidi for the kosher passengers), one
or more of the ports of call may be a shabbos stop. There would be
nothing more miserable than spending a fortune on a cruise and then
not being able to get off the boat in Athens because it was shabbos.
Why is going with a guided tour important to us? In some countries, it
would be easy to wing it. When our entire family went to Orlando two
years ago (Disney), we went grocery shopping at the Super Target down
the street and cooked Morningstar Farms veggie burgers in the
microwave in our hotel room. But if we are traveling to Beijing, I
don't think there's a Super Target conveniently located down the
street, and I am not spending half the vacation time deboning fish in
my hotel room and getting lost in a country where nobody speaks
English. Sorry, that ain't happening.
I want to get on the bus every morning and have someone drive me to
the Forest of Stones and the Karst Caves. I want to be amazed by the
rice paddies and see the villagers in their native habitats, then do a
little shopping in the picturesque village of Yangzhou, and I want to
get there in an air-conditioned motorcoach while the professional
English-speaking tour guide explains the history of the region.
And it's not as if glatt kosher trips are available every week, to
every destination.
A given company may plan only one trip to a given destination per
year, or maybe two or three, if the destination is very popular. We
need to choose a trip that is available in the summer time. Another
reason for going with a glatt tour (aside from the food) is that they
never travel on Saturday, which most other tours do.
Anyway, that's the plan.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
mm
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>On Nov 18, 7:41 pm, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:33:13 +0000 (UTC), "Fiona Abrahami"
>>
>> <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >"cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote
>>
>> >> As I've posted before, my son would like a shidduch with an
>> >> Orthodox Jewish Asian girl. He wants to marry an observant Jew, but he
>> >> would like one who looks like him (his words).
>>
>> >When the time is right, I hope he finds what he's looking for. I know of at
>> >least one Jewish-Asian family in the Bombay-Baghdadi community in Singapore.
>> >Now there's a Asian country you can take him to, it's English speaking
>> >(officially)
>> >and it has a frum kehillah too.
>>
>> It might be a good idea to write ahead, and make sure the girl or
>> girls they think right is in town when the Stein family arrives. (Are
>> you all going.)
>>
>> People make their own good luck.
>-----------
>Thank you, but my son is too young to get married. We are not all
Maybe he should go somewhere else now and go to Singapore when he IS
ready to get married.
I'm thinking about a woman I knew at work. Her father was a
Chinese-American, serving in the Pacific in WW2. When the war was
over, instead of going straight back to the US, he stopped in
Singapore or Hong Kong (I always confuse the two) for a while, aiui,
to find himself a wife. And he did. I'm sure there were Chinese
girls in the US but there were a lot more of them there. So that's
where he looked. They were still married 40 years later, probably
still are.
He made his own good luck.
>going (couldn't afford it). Only my son and I are going. I never
>realized there was a Bombay-Baghdadi community in Singapore, but I
>think were we're more likely to end up in Beijing or Bangkok (or
>possible Tibet). The reason for this is that we are looking for a
>glatt kosher escorted tour. This really limits us in terms of where we
>can go (where such tours are available) and when we can go (when the
>tour is available).
>
>Since tour companies are in business to make money, I suspect kosher
>companies plan tours on the basis of which are popular destinations
>for glatt kosher-keeping Jews. Apparently, China and Thailand are
>popular destinations, as are Italy, Spain, Morocco, Russia, Greece,
>India, Australia, and the Republic of South Africa. South Korea and
>Taiwan are apparently not very popular. Nor are most destinations in
>South America, the possible exception being Peru. Costa Rica is
>extremely popular. Cruises are very popular, but we're not looking for
>a cruise.
>
>We really, really wanted to go to Egypt to see the pyramids, and we
>may try to arrange that, but to the best of my knowledge, there is no
>glatt kosher trip to Egypt (even though there is an Israeli tour
>company that routinely arranges nonkosher motorcoach tours out of
>Jerusalem and Tel Aviv to both Egypt
Isn't that good enough?**
> and Jordan (Petra). The other
If you go to Petra, I myself would not go for an extra day just to see
Mt. Nebo. Well, actually I did, and it was annoying that the small
museum and any other text there was ignored the Jews and only referred
to Islam and Xianity. It was as if we weren't there and Moses wasn't
an Israelite. I take comfort in that I had no choice. I had asked the
tour company, whose name I can find, if they had a two-day tour (which
according to their brochure would have omitted Mt. Nebo) coming up and
she said they didn't. One-day tours only left from Eilat, because
the distance is shorter. So all that was left was a 3-day tour. The
3rd day did include some Roman site in Amman. Also a short drive
through the rich and embassy area of Amman, including a look at the
American embassy. And some church and a place they made iirc mosaics
or some craft, where none of the four of us bought anything.
>thing we would have considered is one week in Israel and one week in
>Egypt. If we did that, we could do Israel on our own, but then, there
>is the issue of Egypt... the motorcoach ride is 12 hours up and 12
>hours back. That wasn't how we wanted to spend two days of the
>vacation. There are flights from Ben Gurion to Cairo which cost around
>$400 each roundtrip. The Israeli-arranged guided tours of Egypt are
>either four days (including the motorcoach travel time) or eight days.
>We would definitely want a tour, as I don't think my son and I want to
>spend a week wandering around Egypt by ourselves.
**Okay. I see your objections. They are similar to mine. I don't
want to spend the money on the plane, and the bus time is a lot.
A) I'm hoping they will open the northern Israeli border crossing to
passenger cars, instead of just commercial, and that I'll go for a
long stay in Israel and buy a used car.
Right now all the tours to Israel leave from Eilat (or from elswhere
but go through Eilat). I wanted to go one way and come back a
different way.
My father was in Egypt in 1936, in Alexandria and I think at the
pyramids near Cairo. He has a picture of an Egyptian traffic director
(in the middle of an intersection) and I wanted to try to find the
same scene.
>I have yet to see any kind of a kosher trip to Egypt, save for a two-
>week glatt kosher cruise that includes Egypt as one of seven ports of
>call. The price for this cruise is astronomical. And since the entire
>cruise is not a dedicated glatt kosher cruise (there is a dedicated
>kosher kitchen and a mashgiach temidi for the kosher passengers), one
>or more of the ports of call may be a shabbos stop. There would be
>nothing more miserable than spending a fortune on a cruise and then
>not being able to get off the boat in Athens because it was shabbos.
Why can't you get off the boat? Aren't there kosher Jews in Athens or
wherever who would give you lunch?
>Why is going with a guided tour important to us? In some countries, it
>would be easy to wing it. When our entire family went to Orlando two
>years ago (Disney), we went grocery shopping at the Super Target down
>the street and cooked Morningstar Farms veggie burgers in the
>microwave in our hotel room. But if we are traveling to Beijing, I
>don't think there's a Super Target conveniently located down the
>street, and I am not spending half the vacation time deboning fish in
>my hotel room and getting lost in a country where nobody speaks
>English. Sorry, that ain't happening.
Can't you just eat fresh fruit and vegetables for a few days.
>I want to get on the bus every morning and have someone drive me to
>the Forest of Stones and the Karst Caves. I want to be amazed by the
>rice paddies and see the villagers in their native habitats, then do a
>little shopping in the picturesque village of Yangzhou, and I want to
>get there in an air-conditioned motorcoach while the professional
>English-speaking tour guide explains the history of the region.
Well, the tour to Petra was supposed to have an English-speakilng
guide but his English was pretty weak and he barely said anything. The
clearest sentence he said was on the road from Amman to Petra when he
went over speed bumps. He had to slow down for them, and it was only
4 of 5 words, none of them vulgar, but it was the clearest English he
spoke. Other places he knew a word or two, Roman, etc. but iirc we
had to fill in or guess what the rest was. I thought about
complaining to the travel agency in Jerusalem, but once I was back it
was less important. And the Arab cab driver who was included to take
us from Yerushalayim to the border and back later offered to take each
of us where we wanted to go, and then wanted money for having done so.
Israel is normally so civilized that the other person and the other
couple, probably all experienced travelers, would have clarified this
other places, but since the driver didn't say anything they assumed it
was included in the tour, I think, since it was dark out, I guess, and
late enough that people wanted to go back to their hotel or dormitory.
>And it's not as if glatt kosher trips are available every week, to
>every destination.
>A given company may plan only one trip to a given destination per
>year, or maybe two or three, if the destination is very popular. We
>need to choose a trip that is available in the summer time. Another
>reason for going with a glatt tour (aside from the food) is that they
>never travel on Saturday, which most other tours do.
>
>Anyway, that's the plan.
>Best regards,
>---Cindy S.
I see the constraints, yes I do.
cindys
> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 02:35:24 +0000 (UTC), cindys
>
>
> >We really, really wanted to go to Egypt to see the pyramids, and we
> >may try to arrange that, but to the best of my knowledge, there is no
> >glatt kosher trip to Egypt (even though there is an Israeli tour
> >company that routinely arranges nonkosher motorcoach tours out of
> >Jerusalem and Tel Aviv to both Egypt
>
> Isn't that good enough?**
It would be really burdensome to have to shlep four or eight days'
worth of food with us and then have to prepare it as well. Do I need
to buy a hotplate or pots and pans in Egypt? Disposable plates and
cups and silverware? We've done our own cooking every time we've
traveled in the USA, and it's a pain in the tushy. If we're going to
spend all that money to travel to the other side of the world, I
really don't want to waste all that time acquiring food and preparing
it. When my sister travels, she insists that they always eat out (they
don't keep kosher). She says that there is no way she is going to
spend her vacation cooking.
>
> > and Jordan (Petra). The other
>
> If you go to Petra, I myself would not go for an extra day just to see
> Mt. Nebo. Well, actually I did, and it was annoying that the small
> museum and any other text there was ignored the Jews and only referred
> to Islam and Xianity. It was as if we weren't there and Moses wasn't
> an Israelite. I take comfort in that I had no choice. I had asked the
> tour company, whose name I can find, if they had a two-day tour (which
> according to their brochure would have omitted Mt. Nebo) coming up and
> she said they didn't. One-day tours only left from Eilat, because
> the distance is shorter. So all that was left was a 3-day tour. The
> 3rd day did include some Roman site in Amman. Also a short drive
> through the rich and embassy area of Amman, including a look at the
> American embassy. And some church and a place they made iirc mosaics
> or some craft, where none of the four of us bought anything.
We wouldn't go to Petra. One of my friends (who had been there) said
that if we ever did go there, not to let anyone talk us into the one-
day tour, that you really need three or four days. I'm sure Petra is
beautiful, but there are many other places we would rather go.
I think there is a halachic problem with de-boating on shabbos or at
least walking more than a certain number of amos from the ship. But
even if there isn't... You don't get off the ship at a port-of-call to
walk around the pier. Rather, you have to *get on a bus* which takes
you to Athens for a guided tour, and the tour in all likelihood will
include: Sightseeing on the motorcoach, eating lunch in a restaurant,
going shopping, etc.
>
> >Why is going with a guided tour important to us? In some countries, it
> >would be easy to wing it. When our entire family went to Orlando two
> >years ago (Disney), we went grocery shopping at the Super Target down
> >the street and cooked Morningstar Farms veggie burgers in the
> >microwave in our hotel room. But if we are traveling to Beijing, I
> >don't think there's a Super Target conveniently located down the
> >street, and I am not spending half the vacation time deboning fish in
> >my hotel room and getting lost in a country where nobody speaks
> >English. Sorry, that ain't happening.
>
> Can't you just eat fresh fruit and vegetables for a few days.
It sounds like a nice idea in theory, but in reality, it's miserable.
1. I would still have to procure these fruits and vegetables on my
own. Generally, when you're on an escorted tour, you're on a tight
schedule. So, what would I do? Miss the tour of the Summer Palace
because I needed to go food shopping? And treif tours always include
meals, so everyday, the rest of the group would be eating at some
restaurant twice per day, and we would need to join them (and not eat)
because the next leg of the tour would generally leave directly from
that restaurant.
2. It's really, really hard to subsist on fruits and vegetables for
two weeks. This is supposed to be fun! This is supposed to be a
vacation! I can guarantee you we would be constantly hungry and
miserable. I have a kosher neighbor who went on a treif cruise. She
didn't see what would be the big deal with eating Meal Mart TV dinners
for the duration of the cruise (which lasted about a week or maybe ten
days). She told me that by the end of the week, she thought she was
going to lose her mind. She finally had to go into the kitchen and
arrange with the chef to double wrap her a piece of salmon, and she
must have essentially cooked it herself. And my friend is generally
not picky at all and prefers simple cooking. She told me she would
never, ever do that again, that if she ever took another cruise, it
would have to be a kosher cruise. And in China, we wouldn't even have
the option of Meal Mart TV dinners.
Bear in mind, my understanding of glatt kosher tours to exotic
locations is that they ensure that the food is kosher, but it's not
necessarily gourmet. If you want gourmet, you have to pick the kosher
culinary trip to Italy or a cruise ;-) The impression I got from the
travel website is that lunches are often do-it-yourself sandwiches,
which is fine because the main thing is *they provide the ingredients
for you,* and the dinners are often vegetarian because it's not so
easy to get kosher meat in China or Thailand, but at least *someone
else (the mashigiach) procures the ingredients and cooks it for you.*
3. That having been said about the food, the other major issue is the
shabbos travel. Even if said, "Okay, I'll live on fruits and
vegetables," the reality is that a treif tour is always going to
involve shabbos travel whereas a glatt kosher tour does not travel or
tour on shabbos. So, it's not only a question of the food. It's also a
question of being shomer shabbos.
mm
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>On Nov 18, 11:44 pm, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>We wouldn't go to Petra. One of my friends (who had been there) said
>that if we ever did go there, not to let anyone talk us into the one-
>day tour, that you really need three or four days.
That sounds like much too much to me. Maybe if you've spent years in
Israel and need a vacation but don't want to fly anywhere.
I"m not sure how much travel time is needed for the one-day tour, but
I guess, it's 2 or 3 hours each way, and it would be a hard day. I
think they start early and come back late. For the three day tour,
it's like this. We got to the town of Petra (I think it's called)
about 6 or 8 at night (after leaving early but stopping various places
along the way.) and it was dark and the ancient areas was closed. It
was only about a couple hundred yards from the hotel they put me in,
but I didn't know that and it was unlit and closed anyhow.
>I'm sure Petra is
>beautiful,
It was nice, and it was big and open, and we did have a local English
speaking guide for an hour or 90 minutes, and he told us a lot of
stuff, but the gentile couple were under the impression we would have
a guide for the whole day. (I couldn't remember what the brochure had
said, and I never checked again). So the guide said he would work
another hour if we paid him so the four of us joined in.
A couple things there are in my experience so far unique, but there
are loads of places that are beautiful, and this wasn't so high on the
list.
The unique things for me: There was a camel ride -- I think it was a
camel -- but it was at the start and downhill, and I thought I was
going to fall off the camel. I wish it had been at the end, when I
was tired and it was up hill to get out. I could have hired a donkey
cart to get out, but I'm not sure I could have after I left the
starting area. And there are camel rides lots of places.
There is that temple that is in the Indiana Jones or something movie.
It's very impressive but the immense doorway leads to a chamber that
is only about 6 feet deep. In the Xian couple I was with, they were
not young, 50's maybe, and the woman seemed totally healthy but had
hurt her leg or back a few years earlier and was handicapped in her
sight seeing, at least the climbing parts. One should try to get this
stuff done early, at least the essential elements of sightseeing, that
is, Israel, where there is also plenty of climing, just in case one
gets injured. Or fat.
>but there are many other places we would rather go.
Absolutely. I wanted to go to Petra becauese I wanted one more tic
mark for the number of countries visited. The number doesn't go up
very fast anymore, because I really only want to go to Israel. I'd
like to stop in Greece on the way there or back, but there seems to be
no inexpensive way to do that, even though I'm flying right over it.
>>
>> Right now all the tours to Israel leave from Eilat (or from elswhere
tours to Egype, I meant.
>> but go through Eilat). I wanted to go one way and come back a
>> different way.
>>
>> Why can't you get off the boat? Aren't there kosher Jews in Athens or
>> wherever who would give you lunch?
>
>I think there is a halachic problem with de-boating on shabbos or at
>least walking more than a certain number of amos from the ship. But
>even if there isn't... You don't get off the ship at a port-of-call to
>walk around the pier. Rather, you have to *get on a bus* which takes
>you to Athens for a guided tour, and the tour in all likelihood will
>include: Sightseeing on the motorcoach, eating lunch in a restaurant,
>going shopping, etc.
I forgot that Athens wasn't the harbor. There was a time I even knew
the name of the city that is. Pyrus or something, the Piraeus,
maybe.
>>
>> Can't you just eat fresh fruit and vegetables for a few days.
>
>It sounds like a nice idea in theory, but in reality, it's miserable.
>
>1. I would still have to procure these fruits and vegetables on my
>own. Generally, when you're on an escorted tour, you're on a tight
>schedule.
I've also never been on a tour, except the 3 day tour to Petra, so I
forgot about that too. The Petra tour involved a lot of driving. It
would have been great to have only 4 people on such a tour, if the
guide had spoken more English.
Meir
Fiona Abrahami
now, I'll still answer.
"Steve Goldfarb" <s...@panix.com> wrote
> "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
>>I agree that white Jews (sorry, I don't like the word Caucasian, it's
>>pretty
>>meaningless) need to be reminded, or even told in the first place, that
>>Judaism is colour blind, I think camps like these are a good idea because
>>it
>>enables Jewish kids of color to network and know that there are other kids
>>going through similar experiences. They could swap coping strategies, and
>>it
>>breaks down the feeling of isolation. Your son may tell you he's OK and
>>that
>>he's used to it, but it must still hurt deep down inside, and it's a
>>constant pressure.
>
> So you think the word "white" more meaningful than the word "Caucasian?"
> :-) I don't think either word is particularly useful.
You're right neither is very useful, but I find 'white' to be more
descriptive, less pseudo-scientific, and pretty much "neutral".
> Anyway I hear what you're saying and certainly it's a tough problem -
> networking is a great idea, but networking doesn't have to be
> segregationist, does it?
>
> Bottom line is most people are simply ignorant - as Cindy's examples point
> out. And sending all the "colored" kids away to camp so that they never
> interact with the ignorant kids does nothing to resolve the ignorance.
Firstly no one's "sending" anyone anywhere (expect maybe the kids' parents),
it's an option they can take if they want, and even if they go to camp for a
few weeks in the summer, it's only a respite, it's not going to save them
from interacting with the ignorant kids for the rest of the year.
> Maybe that guy who assumed Cindy's son didn't know the bracha actually
> learned something from that experience. Maybe all those freshman wondering
> "who's the Chinese kid" have actually learned something, too - something
> they never would out about if they hadn't interacted with Cindy's son.
Yeah maybe they did, but is it a kid's job to teach the ignorant 24/7 52/1?
When do these kid get a break? For the ignorant it's one lesson every once
in a while, for the kids it's constant pressure. Yes, most learn to live
with it, they have to, but why do you begrudge them time off from it for the
sake of whites learning a lesson... that's putting whites first, and that,
I'm afraid, smacks of racism.
> This is not fair - but it's the unfortunate truth that if the minority (of
> any type) wants to be accepted as an equal - or just acknowledged as a
> human - by the majority, then what they need to do is get in the
> majority's face. They need to stand up and say "look at me - interact with
> me - be my friend." No question that's tough. No question that's not fair.
> But what's the alternative? Should white Jews be seeking out colored Jews
> and saying "Hi, my swarthy cousin, would you be my friend?" How freaking
> condescending is that?
And making the "coloured" responsible for correcting the bad behaviour of
the whites, what do you call that? (See above)
> No, the only way progress will ever be made is if these "colored" Jews sit
> down next to the "white" Jews, and say "Hi, I'm so-and-so, and I'm just as
> Jewish as you. Deal with it."
Sure, but how does that make a summer camp for Jewish kids of colour a bad
idea. Camp is only for a few weeks, these kids have still got the rest of
year to save you from yourselves.
> That said, I totally agree that networking is a great idea. Just need to
> find a positive way to do it, one that doesn't involve exclusion.
Exclusion, where did you get that from? I didn't see anything in the article
that said anyone was excluded from the camps.
Fiona
Fiona Abrahami
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote
>mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> >"cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote
>>
>> >> As I've posted before, my son would like a shidduch with an
>> >> Orthodox Jewish Asian girl. He wants to marry an observant Jew, but he
>> >> would like one who looks like him (his words).
>>
>> >When the time is right, I hope he finds what he's looking for. I know of
>> >at
>> >least one Jewish-Asian family in the Bombay-Baghdadi community in
>> >Singapore.
>> >Now there's a Asian country you can take him to, it's English speaking
>> >(officially) and it has a frum kehillah too.
>>
>> It might be a good idea to write ahead, and make sure the girl or
>> girls they think right is in town when the Stein family arrives. (Are
>> you all going.)
>>
>> People make their own good luck.
>-----------
> Thank you, but my son is too young to get married. We are not all
> going (couldn't afford it). Only my son and I are going. I never
> realized there was a Bombay-Baghdadi community in Singapore, but I
And Hong Kong too, though I think the Singapore kehilla is bigger today.
There used to be one in Shanghai before the revolution (only Chabad there
now), and in Ragoon, Burma (now Yangon, Myanmar) until the '60s.
> think were we're more likely to end up in Beijing or Bangkok (or
> possible Tibet). The reason for this is that we are looking for a
> glatt kosher escorted tour. This really limits us in terms of where we
> can go (where such tours are available) and when we can go (when the
> tour is available).
You should get a copy of the Jewish Travel Guide (published by Valentine
Mitchell), it has some errors, but it is an incredibly useful and
interesting book, and (in theory at least) it's updated every year.
Fiona
Steve Goldfarb
>> So you think the word "white" more meaningful than the word "Caucasian?"
>> :-) I don't think either word is particularly useful.
>You're right neither is very useful, but I find 'white' to be more
>descriptive, less pseudo-scientific, and pretty much "neutral".
If you say so - frankly I find it offensive to be referred to as "white."
Seriously. It's not such a big deal that I'd make a stink over it, but I
don't like it.
>> Bottom line is most people are simply ignorant - as Cindy's examples point
>> out. And sending all the "colored" kids away to camp so that they never
>> interact with the ignorant kids does nothing to resolve the ignorance.
>Firstly no one's "sending" anyone anywhere (expect maybe the kids' parents),
>it's an option they can take if they want, and even if they go to camp for a
>few weeks in the summer, it's only a respite, it's not going to save them
>from interacting with the ignorant kids for the rest of the year.
That's what I meant, the parents are sending them.
>Yeah maybe they did, but is it a kid's job to teach the ignorant 24/7 52/1?
>When do these kid get a break? For the ignorant it's one lesson every once
>in a while, for the kids it's constant pressure. Yes, most learn to live
>with it, they have to, but why do you begrudge them time off from it for the
>sake of whites learning a lesson... that's putting whites first, and that,
>I'm afraid, smacks of racism.
I didn't say it was fair. But bottom line IMO what you're doing here is
precisely racism - you've bought into the whole premise, that race exists
and that there are white people and non-white people who are inherently
different, and these kids are non-white. I reject that whole line of
thinking. As per my lengthy discussion with Shelly. I don't accept that
there's "good" racism and "bad" racism - to my mind, it's all just racism.
And contrary to what I've actually heard people express to me here in the
US, "racism" does NOT mean "hating black people." I had someone once tell
me very emphatically that for black people to hate white people cannot
possibly be described as "racism," that word is reserved exclusively for
prejudice against blacks. That's part of the reason why I fervently reject
the whole notion.
>And making the "coloured" responsible for correcting the bad behaviour of
>the whites, what do you call that? (See above)
Unfair. But necessary.
>> No, the only way progress will ever be made is if these "colored" Jews sit
>> down next to the "white" Jews, and say "Hi, I'm so-and-so, and I'm just as
>> Jewish as you. Deal with it."
>Sure, but how does that make a summer camp for Jewish kids of colour a bad
>idea. Camp is only for a few weeks, these kids have still got the rest of
>year to save you from yourselves.
I hear you - and I totally understand why it seems like a good idea, and
why the "colored kids" might enjoy it. Nevertheless, I think it's a bad
idea.
>> That said, I totally agree that networking is a great idea. Just need to
>> find a positive way to do it, one that doesn't involve exclusion.
>Exclusion, where did you get that from? I didn't see anything in the article
>that said anyone was excluded from the camps.
How do you have a camp for colored kids if you allow in all the white
people who might want to attend? What criteria do you use to decide who's
colored and who's white? Is it stamped on their passport? Do you hold by
the "one drop" rule? What about albinos - are they white or colored?
There's a whole can of worms here, one that can't be worked through
because the underlying premise is wrong.
--s
--
cindys
Thank you.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
fla...@verizon.net
On 19-Nov-2009, "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > Bottom line is most people are simply ignorant - as Cindy's examples
> > point
> > out. And sending all the "colored" kids away to camp so that they never
> > interact with the ignorant kids does nothing to resolve the ignorance.
>
> Firstly no one's "sending" anyone anywhere (expect maybe the kids'
> parents),
> it's an option they can take if they want, and even if they go to camp for
> a
> few weeks in the summer, it's only a respite, it's not going to save them
> from interacting with the ignorant kids for the rest of the year.
Couldn't agree more.
The camps are obviusly bracing for these kids.
>
> > Maybe that guy who assumed Cindy's son didn't know the bracha actually
> > learned something from that experience. Maybe all those freshman
> > wondering
> > "who's the Chinese kid" have actually learned something, too - something
> > they never would out about if they hadn't interacted with Cindy's son.
>
> Yeah maybe they did, but is it a kid's job to teach the ignorant 24/7
> 52/1?
Well, the kid's a Jew, right?
This means is that he has a better grasp of what
that truly means than kids who have it easier.
(trying to look at the brightest side....)
> When do these kid get a break? For the ignorant it's one lesson every once
> in a while, for the kids it's constant pressure. Yes, most learn to live
> with it, they have to, but why do you begrudge them time off from it for
> the
> sake of whites learning a lesson... that's putting whites first, and that,
> I'm afraid, smacks of racism.
I wouldn't necessarily think of it as "teaching the whites",
because I'm sure there are plenty of "non-whites" who also
are stupid to kids like this.
Susan
Harry Weiss
> On Nov 16, 2:33?am, mirjam <mir...@actcom.co.il> wrote:
> > > But I don't think the solution is a separate summer camp, and I would
> > > not have sent my children there. I think it would exacerbate the
> > > situation rather than improve it. Caucasian Jews need the reminder
> > > that Judaism is color-blind, and by segregating Jews of other races,
> > > it only serves to reinforce their prejudices.
> > > Best regards,
> > > ---Cindy S.
> >
> > ? ?Cyndy , i was very sad to read about your son`s being insulted by
> > others, [directly or undirectly]. ?I believe that the only way to
> > teach people , that Everybody is Unique , but has the same rights/
> > duties/feelings ?is by sending them to the same summer schools.
> > When i was an adviser about HandCraft Instructors, in the Ministry of
> > Education, i insisted on a Summer Week , where all the students ,
> > Muslim, Bedouin, Christian and Jews , will be together for a whole
> > week , take the same workshops, eat together, etc...
> ---------------
> That sounds like a great program, but I feel compelled to point out
> here that my sons have been treated badly by fellow Jews! And my older
> son has been treated badly by Orthodox Jews when he's wearing the
> black hat uniform!!!
> ---Cindy S.
That is horrible. I can't understand it. It would surprise me in NYC,
but you are upstate and I did not thing the kids have teh mandatory
rudenesss training that they get in NYC.
> > it took always 1
> > day , for people to realize that they share the same passion for art
> > and certain handcrafts, the same delight in colours threads etc,,,,
> > and quickly friendships were made , some of which last for years. And
> > even those that don`t become friends learned How much they have in
> > common and learned to accept and respect each other.
> > and Acknowledge each other`s existance.
> > ? ?Another example i want tyo give, is from the developement of
> > Fiberart. It wasn`t acepted as an Equal art until fibeartists started
> > to participant with Other `conventional` artists in the same
> > conditions , galleries etc,,
> > mirjam
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
Harry Weiss
> On Nov 16, 7:16?am, "Fiona Abrahami"
> > > frum beis din, endorsed and promoted by the rosh yeshiva of our city,
> > > and after he had celebrated his bar mitzvah at our shul with great joy
> > > and fanfare and with the good will and best wishes from the entire
> > > congregation, and after he was a weekly presence at shabbos minyan,
> > > for a year or two after that, when the shul hired a new rabbi, the new
> > > rabbi had the chutzpah to start grilling me about my son's gerus with
> > > a phony story that "the board members of the synagogue were wondering"
> >
> > Nasty! He sounds a bit dishonest, and a bit dumb, is he too stupid to
> > realise the whole community, board included, knew about your son's gerut?
> >
> > Fiona
> ---------------
> Apparently. He apparently acted impulsively WITHOUT first consulting
> the board of trustees because they would have told him.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
It sounds more cowardly than totally dishonest. He figured since he had
questions eveyone else did do and did not want to own up to it being his
questions,.
Was he an experienced Rabbi or new at the business.
Fiona Abrahami
"Steve Goldfarb" <s...@panix.com> wrote
> "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
>>52/1?
>>When do these kid get a break? For the ignorant it's one lesson every once
>>in a while, for the kids it's constant pressure. Yes, most learn to live
>>with it, they have to, but why do you begrudge them time off from it for
>>the
>>sake of whites learning a lesson... that's putting whites first, and that,
>>I'm afraid, smacks of racism.
>
> I didn't say it was fair. But bottom line IMO what you're doing here is
> precisely racism - you've bought into the whole premise, that race exists
> and that there are white people and non-white people who are inherently
> different, and these kids are non-white.
Race is a social construst, and that social construct exists, indeed, is
deeply engrained in North American culture, whether you like it or not.
Non-whites in the USA have only really been free (i.e. had all legal
disabilites removed), for less 50 years, taking that into consideration
against a backdrop of 400 years of slavery and discrimiation, you cannot
seriously believe racism is just going to disappear through "rejection", do
you or by denying the premise that race exists!? It doesn't matter whether
race is or is not a reality, American culture believes it is a reality, and
that has to be taken by the horns and dealt with.
> I reject that whole line of thinking.
Rejecting or ignoring it doesn't make it go away. And as long as it exists
these kids will value opportunities for respite.
> As per my lengthy discussion with Shelly. I don't accept that
> there's "good" racism and "bad" racism - to my mind, it's all just racism.
> And contrary to what I've actually heard people express to me here in the
> US, "racism" does NOT mean "hating black people." I had someone once tell
> me very emphatically that for black people to hate white people cannot
> possibly be described as "racism," that word is reserved exclusively for
> prejudice against blacks. That's part of the reason why I fervently reject
> the whole notion.
>
>>And making the "coloured" responsible for correcting the bad behaviour of
>>the whites, what do you call that? (See above)
>
> Unfair. But necessary.
Why necessary; ever heard of the idea of being responsible for your own
actions? White people are reponsible for correcting their own behaviour, it
is no longer the job of "black" people to do the whiteman's dirty-work for
him, those days are over!
>> No, the only way progress will ever be made is if these "colored" Jews
>> sit
>>> down next to the "white" Jews, and say "Hi, I'm so-and-so, and I'm just
>>> as
>>> Jewish as you. Deal with it."
>
>>Sure, but how does that make a summer camp for Jewish kids of colour a bad
>>idea. Camp is only for a few weeks, these kids have still got the rest of
>>year to save you from yourselves.
>
> I hear you - and I totally understand why it seems like a good idea, and
> why the "colored kids" might enjoy it. Nevertheless, I think it's a bad
> idea.
Yeah, but it sounds like you just want to control other people's lives, to
tell "coloured kids" what they should or shouldn't do.
>>> That said, I totally agree that networking is a great idea. Just need to
>>> find a positive way to do it, one that doesn't involve exclusion.
>
>>Exclusion, where did you get that from? I didn't see anything in the
>>article
>>that said anyone was excluded from the camps.
>
> How do you have a camp for colored kids if you allow in all the white
> people who might want to attend?
I didn't see anything in the article that said no white kids were allowed.
So if you ask nicely, I'm sure your kids will be able to go to get some
"special education," but obviously the demand from white liberals trying to
get their kids in to "touch black" will mean places for wite kids will be at
a premium...
> What criteria do you use to decide who's colored and who's white?
I don't know Steve, I'm not involved with these summer camps or the
organisations running them, if it bothers you so much why don't you ask
them?
Fiona
cindys
snip
>
> Race is a social construct, and that social construct exists, indeed, is
> deeply engrained in North American culture, whether you like it or not.
> Non-whites in the USA have only really been free (i.e. had all legal
> disabilites removed), for less 50 years, taking that into consideration
> against a backdrop of 400 years of slavery and discrimiation, you cannot
> seriously believe racism is just going to disappear through "rejection", do
> you or by denying the premise that race exists!? It doesn't matter whether
> race is or is not a reality, American culture believes it is a reality, and
> that has to be taken by the horns and dealt with.
According to a new book, it is a reality. The September 6, 2009 lead
cover article in _Newsweek_ was "Is Your Baby a Racist?" The answer in
a nutshell was "yes." The _Newsweek_ article was an excerpt from a
book entitled _Nutureshock_ by Po Bronson and Ashley Merryman. To read
the article, go to:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/214989
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Abe Kohen
"Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7cfOm.81069$_o.2...@newsfe22.ams2...
> Non-whites in the USA have only really been free (i.e. had all legal
> disabilites removed), for less 50 years, taking that into consideration
> against a backdrop of 400 years of slavery and discrimiation, you cannot
50 years would be 1959. Right? AFAIK and IIRC
blacks/negroes/aftros/african-americans in '59 were free. They had full
freedom up here in the Yankee states. Perhaps your counter starts with the
Civil Rights Act and refers mainly to the Southern states?
Best,
Abe
cindys
> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 16, 2:33?am, mirjam <mir...@actcom.co.il> wrote:
> > > > But I don't think the solution is a separate summer camp, and I would
> > > > not have sent my children there. I think it would exacerbate the
> > > > situation rather than improve it. Caucasian Jews need the reminder
> > > > that Judaism is color-blind, and by segregating Jews of other races,
> > > > it only serves to reinforce their prejudices.
> > > > Best regards,
> > > > ---Cindy S.
>
> > > ? ?Cyndy , i was very sad to read about your son`s being insulted by
> > > others, [directly or undirectly]. ?I believe that the only way to
> > > teach people , that Everybody is Unique , but has the same rights/
> > > duties/feelings ?is by sending them to the same summer schools.
> > > When i was an adviser about HandCraft Instructors, in the Ministry of
> > > Education, i insisted on a Summer Week , where all the students ,
> > > Muslim, Bedouin, Christian and Jews , will be together for a whole
> > > week , take the same workshops, eat together, etc...
> > ---------------
> > That sounds like a great program, but I feel compelled to point out
> > here that my sons have been treated badly by fellow Jews! And my older
> > son has been treated badly by Orthodox Jews when he's wearing the
> > black hat uniform!!!
> > Best regards,
> > ---Cindy S.
>
> but you are upstate and I did not thing the kids have the mandatory
> rudeness training that they get in NYC.
----------------------
But the students at our local yeshiva mostly come from NYC. But as I
said, the worst treatment my son ever experienced was from middle-aged
chassidim in the shul in Brooklyn.
Then, of course, there are the groups of chassidim who are traveling
(by bus - maybe a Monsey Trails charter ;-) through Upstate on their
way to or from somewhere else and use our local yeshiva as a sort of
rest stop. They generally stay long enough to use the restroom, have
something to eat, daven, and sometimes, they set up little makeshift
bookselling business in the yeshiva and try to sell some seforim (holy
books) for an hour or two. And they spend a lot of time staring at my
son too.
What my son does in this situation (I have described this before on
this forum), is to lie in wait for them around the corners and when he
sees them walking down the hallway, he jumps out and yells "boo!," and
then "they get scared and run away." (Well, he used to do this when he
was younger anyway. He's probably outgrown this now.) At least with
the new freshmen, after the first week or two of school, "the Chinese
kid" becomes old news. But visiting chassidishe groups can show up at
any time and invariably include a fresh group of "lookie loos."
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
fla...@verizon.net
On 22-Nov-2009, Harry Weiss <hjw...@panix.com> wrote:
> It sounds more cowardly than totally dishonest. He figured since he had
> questions eveyone else did do and did not want to own up to it being his
> questions,.
I will agree with you, except that I think that it's
only his *intentions* that were not dishonest,
because he absolutely *was* dishonest.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
They being part of the US, and having their rights
denied, yes, that would be my contention as well.
Susan
cindys
> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 16, 7:16?am, "Fiona Abrahami"
> > <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote
>
> > > > And another story - after my son had had his gerus (conversion) with a
> > > > frum beis din, endorsed and promoted by the rosh yeshiva of our city,
> > > > and after he had celebrated his bar mitzvah at our shul with great joy
> > > > and fanfare and with the good will and best wishes from the entire
> > > > congregation, and after he was a weekly presence at shabbos minyan,
> > > > for a year or two after that, when the shul hired a new rabbi, the new
> > > > rabbi had the chutzpah to start grilling me about my son's gerus with
> > > > a phony story that "the board members of the synagogue were wondering"
> > > > about my son's conversion. ?Grrrrrr!!!!!
>
> > > Nasty! He sounds a bit dishonest, and a bit dumb, is he too stupid to
> > > realise the whole community, board included, knew about your son's gerut?
>
> > > Fiona
> > ---------------
> > Apparently. He apparently acted impulsively WITHOUT first consulting
> > the board of trustees because they would have told him.
> > Best regards,
> > ---Cindy S.
>
> It sounds more cowardly than totally dishonest. He figured since he had
> questions,.
------------
Except he blew it because nobody else had any questions.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Harry Weiss
> On Nov 18, 11:44?pm, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> > On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 02:35:24 +0000 (UTC), cindys
> >
> > snip
> >
> > >We really, really wanted to go to Egypt to see the pyramids, and we
> > >may try to arrange that, but to the best of my knowledge, there is no
> > >glatt kosher trip to Egypt (even though there is an Israeli tour
> > >company that routinely arranges nonkosher motorcoach tours out of
> > >Jerusalem and Tel Aviv to both Egypt
> >
> > Isn't that good enough?**
> It would be really burdensome to have to shlep four or eight days'
> worth of food with us and then have to prepare it as well. Do I need
> to buy a hotplate or pots and pans in Egypt? Disposable plates and
> cups and silverware? We've done our own cooking every time we've
> traveled in the USA, and it's a pain in the tushy. If we're going to
> spend all that money to travel to the other side of the world, I
> really don't want to waste all that time acquiring food and preparing
> it. When my sister travels, she insists that they always eat out (they
> don't keep kosher). She says that there is no way she is going to
> spend her vacation cooking.
> >
> > > and Jordan (Petra). The other
> >
> > If you go to Petra, I myself would not go for an extra day just to see
> > Mt. Nebo. ?Well, actually I did, and it was annoying that the small
> > museum and any other text there was ignored the Jews and only referred
> > to Islam and Xianity. ? It was as if we weren't there and Moses wasn't
> > an Israelite. ?I take comfort in that I had no choice. I had asked the
> > tour company, whose name I can find, if they had a two-day tour (which
> > according to their brochure would have omitted Mt. Nebo) coming up and
> > she said they didn't. ? One-day tours only left from Eilat, because
> > the distance is shorter. ?So all that was left was a 3-day tour. ?The
> > 3rd day did include some Roman site in Amman. ?Also a short drive
> > through the rich and embassy area of Amman, including a look at the
> > American embassy. ?And some church and a place they made iirc mosaics
> > or some craft, where none of the four of us bought anything.
> We wouldn't go to Petra. One of my friends (who had been there) said
> that if we ever did go there, not to let anyone talk us into the one-
> day tour, that you really need three or four days. I'm sure Petra is
> beautiful, but there are many other places we would rather go.
> >
> > >thing we would have considered is one week in Israel and one week in
> > >Egypt. If we did that, we could do Israel on our own, but then, there
> > >is the issue of Egypt... the motorcoach ride is 12 hours up and 12
> > >hours back. That wasn't how we wanted to spend two days of the
> > >vacation. There are flights from Ben Gurion to Cairo which cost around
> > >$400 each roundtrip. The Israeli-arranged guided tours of Egypt are
> > >either four days (including the motorcoach travel time) or eight days.
> > >We would definitely want a tour, as I don't think my son and I want to
> > >spend a week wandering around Egypt by ourselves.
> >
> > **Okay. ?I see your objections. ?They are similar to mine. ? I don't
> > want to spend the money on the plane, and the bus time is a lot. ?
> >
> > A) I'm hoping they will open the northern Israeli border crossing to
> > passenger cars, instead of just commercial, and that I'll go for a
> > long stay in Israel and buy a used car.
> >
> > Right now all the tours to Israel leave from Eilat (or from elswhere
> > but go through Eilat). ?I wanted to go one way and come back a
> > different way. ?
> >
> > My father was in Egypt in 1936, in Alexandria and I think at the
> > pyramids near Cairo. ?He has a picture of an Egyptian traffic director
> > (in the middle of an intersection) and I wanted to try to find the
> > same scene.
> >
> > >I have yet to see any kind of a kosher trip to Egypt, save for a two-
> > >week glatt kosher cruise that includes Egypt as one of seven ports of
> > >call. The price for this cruise is astronomical. And since the entire
> > >cruise is not a dedicated glatt kosher cruise (there is a dedicated
> > >kosher kitchen and a mashgiach temidi for the kosher passengers), one
> > >or more of the ports of call may be a shabbos stop. There would be
> > >nothing more miserable than spending a fortune on a cruise and then
> > >not being able to get off the boat in Athens because it was shabbos.
> >
> > Why can't you get off the boat? ?Aren't there kosher Jews in Athens or
You got things right. Often the tour guide will more likely bring out the
things of Jewish interest if any, There will also be minyanim and often
shiurim.. This past summer was the only time I went on a tour like that,
but not to real exotic place. I went with my younger son to Poland. The
tour was excellent. The sleeping accomdations was very good, and the food
was very mediocre, but no one went hungry. We had a great group of
people and Rabbis Weil and Smolarcik did outstanding jobs.
> >
> > >I want to get on the bus every morning and have someone drive me to
> > >the Forest of Stones and the Karst Caves. I want to be amazed by the
> > >rice paddies and see the villagers in their native habitats, then do a
> > >little shopping in the picturesque village of Yangzhou, and I want to
> > >get there in an air-conditioned motorcoach while the professional
> > >English-speaking tour guide explains the history of the region.
> >
> > Well, the tour to Petra was supposed to have an English-speakilng
> > guide but his English was pretty weak and he barely said anything. The
> > clearest sentence he said was on the road from Amman to Petra when he
> > went over speed bumps. ?He had to slow down for them, and it was only
> > 4 of 5 words, none of them vulgar, but it was the clearest English he
> > spoke. ?Other places he knew a word or two, Roman, etc. but iirc we
> > had to fill in or guess what the rest was. ?I thought about
> > complaining to the travel agency in Jerusalem, but once I was back it
> > was less important. ? And the Arab cab driver who was included to take
> > us from Yerushalayim to the border and back later offered to take each
> > of us where we wanted to go, and then wanted money for having done so.
> > Israel is normally so civilized that the other person and the other
> > couple, probably all experienced travelers, would have clarified this
> > other places, but since the driver didn't say anything they assumed it
> > was included in the tour, I think, since it was dark out, I guess, and
> > late enough that people wanted to go back to their hotel or dormitory.
> >
> > >And it's not as if glatt kosher trips are available every week, to
> > >every destination.
> > >A given company may plan only one trip to a given destination per
> > >year, or maybe two or three, if the destination is very popular. We
> > >need to choose a trip that is available in the summer time. Another
> > >reason for going with a glatt tour (aside from the food) is that they
> > >never travel on Saturday, which most other tours do.
> >
> > >Anyway, that's the plan.
> > >Best regards,
> > >---Cindy S.
> >
> > I see the constraints, yes I do.
> > --
> >
> > Meir
> >
> > "The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
cindys
big snip
>
> You got things right. Often the tour guide will more likely bring out the
> things of Jewish interest if any, There will also be minyanim and often
> shiurim.. This past summer was the only time I went on a tour like that,
> but not to real exotic place. I went with my younger son to Poland. The
> was very mediocre, but no one went hungry. We had a great group of
> people and Rabbis Weil and Smolarcik did outstanding jobs.
Harry, can you tell me the name of the tour company you used? (Either
post it or e-mail me if you feel more comfortable). The one company I
have phoned so far promised to get back to me within a few days. That
was at least three weeks ago, and I'm still waiting....
Harry Weiss
> On Nov 22, 5:06?am, Harry Weiss <hjwe...@panix.com> wrote:
> > cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> > > On Nov 16, 7:16?am, "Fiona Abrahami"
> > > <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote
> >
> > > > > And another story - after my son had had his gerus (conversion) with a
> > > > > frum beis din, endorsed and promoted by the rosh yeshiva of our city,
> > > > > and after he had celebrated his bar mitzvah at our shul with great joy
> > > > > and fanfare and with the good will and best wishes from the entire
> > > > > congregation, and after he was a weekly presence at shabbos minyan,
> > > > > for a year or two after that, when the shul hired a new rabbi, the new
> > > > > rabbi had the chutzpah to start grilling me about my son's gerus with
> > > > > a phony story that "the board members of the synagogue were wondering"
> > > > > about my son's conversion. ?Grrrrrr!!!!!
> >
> > > > Nasty! He sounds a bit dishonest, and a bit dumb, is he too stupid to
> > > > realise the whole community, board included, knew about your son's gerut?
> >
> > > > Fiona
> > > ---------------
> > > Apparently. He apparently acted impulsively WITHOUT first consulting
> > > the board of trustees because they would have told him.
> > > Best regards,
> > > ---Cindy S.
> >
> > questions everyone else did do and did not want to own up to it being his
> > questions,.
> ------------
> Except he blew it because nobody else had any questions.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
did. and of course we all know what assume means.
Steve Goldfarb
>Race is a social construst, and that social construct exists, indeed, is
>deeply engrained in North American culture, whether you like it or not.
>Non-whites in the USA have only really been free (i.e. had all legal
>disabilites removed), for less 50 years, taking that into consideration
>against a backdrop of 400 years of slavery and discrimiation, you cannot
>seriously believe racism is just going to disappear through "rejection", do
>you or by denying the premise that race exists!? It doesn't matter whether
>race is or is not a reality, American culture believes it is a reality, and
>that has to be taken by the horns and dealt with.
I agree with the above, my point is that given that race is a social
construct, the only way to become colorblind is through other social
constructs. It is a mistake, IMO, to support that social construct but
simply try to "flip" it - a la Black Panthers and the like, that is, yes,
race exists, yes, you can define people according to their race, but
instead of white people being good and black people being bad, we're going
to insist that black people are good and white people are bad!
>> I reject that whole line of thinking.
>Rejecting or ignoring it doesn't make it go away. And as long as it exists
>these kids will value opportunities for respite.
Actually I disagree. It's the only way to make it go away.
>> Unfair. But necessary.
>Why necessary; ever heard of the idea of being responsible for your own
>actions? White people are reponsible for correcting their own behaviour, it
>is no longer the job of "black" people to do the whiteman's dirty-work for
>him, those days are over!
So in your view I should walk up to the nearest black man and say "Hello,
black man, I'm so sorry you have been repressed. Please be my friend. And
hey, here's $20 for that slavery thing. So sorry about that." ??? The way
to correct the behavior, IMO, is to STOP DOING IT. That means the proper
response to "sorry for treating you badly, black man, now I'll treat you
well, black man" is "sorry for treating you differently, sir, and now I
will treat you like any other person." Neither better nor worse.
>> I hear you - and I totally understand why it seems like a good idea, and
>> why the "colored kids" might enjoy it. Nevertheless, I think it's a bad
>> idea.
>Yeah, but it sounds like you just want to control other people's lives, to
>tell "coloured kids" what they should or shouldn't do.
Why shouldn't I? Aren't you doing just that? I am in way trying to force
people to do anything - but you brought up a question, and I'm not saying
they shouldn't be allowed to, I'm saying I don't think it's a good idea.
Do you see the difference?
>> How do you have a camp for colored kids if you allow in all the white
>> people who might want to attend?
>I didn't see anything in the article that said no white kids were allowed.
>So if you ask nicely, I'm sure your kids will be able to go to get some
>"special education," but obviously the demand from white liberals trying to
>get their kids in to "touch black" will mean places for wite kids will be at
>a premium...
That's a racist policy, then.
>> What criteria do you use to decide who's colored and who's white?
>I don't know Steve, I'm not involved with these summer camps or the
>organisations running them, if it bothers you so much why don't you ask
>them?
It's inherent in the question. If you're going to have colored folk, then
you MUST have some mechanism for deciding who's colored and who isn't.
That's precisely my objection - whether you're trying to benefit poor
darky or trying to denigrate him, I find the very notion of stamping
"colored" on someone's passport (or the equivalent) to be incredibly
offensive.
--s
--
Fiona Abrahami
> "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote
>
>> disabilites removed), for less 50 years, taking that into consideration
>> against a backdrop of 400 years of slavery and discrimiation, you cannot
>
> 50 years would be 1959. Right? AFAIK and IIRC
> blacks/negroes/aftros/african-americans in '59 were free. They had full
> freedom up here in the Yankee states. Perhaps your counter starts with the
> Civil Rights Act and refers mainly to the Southern states?
The Southern States are part of the USA are they not?
Fiona
fla...@verizon.net
And if the North sits by & lets it all go on...?
Susan
Abe Kohen
Indeed they are.
Now let's bring some Jewish content to this discussion.
Bnei Yisrael (Israelites) were enslaved in Egypt for either 210 or 400
years. They wandered in the midbar (desert) for 40 years. After those 40
years (or 2 generations) the effect or impact of slavery and slave mentality
was gone.
It's been 45 years since the enactment of the Civil Rights laws under
President Johnson. That includes the South. That's more than 2 generations.
In the words of the esteemed liberals: Move On.
Best,
Abe
Fiona Abrahami
"Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote
> "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote
>> "Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote
>>> "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote
>>>
>>>> Non-whites in the USA have only really been free (i.e. had all legal
>>>> disabilites removed), for less 50 years, taking that into consideration
>>>> against a backdrop of 400 years of slavery and discrimiation, you
>>>> cannot
>>>
>>> 50 years would be 1959. Right? AFAIK and IIRC
>>> blacks/negroes/aftros/african-americans in '59 were free. They had full
>>> freedom up here in the Yankee states. Perhaps your counter starts with
>>> the Civil Rights Act and refers mainly to the Southern states?
>>
>> The Southern States are part of the USA are they not?
>
> Indeed they are.
>
> Now let's bring some Jewish content to this discussion.
>
> Bnei Yisrael (Israelites) were enslaved in Egypt for either 210 or 400
> years. They wandered in the midbar (desert) for 40 years. After those 40
> years (or 2 generations) the effect or impact of slavery and slave
> mentality was gone.
You think that's similar? (A) we left the country of bondage (B) we were the
descendants of one family, i.e. we spoke one language and had familial
connection other than a racial fiction (c) we were lead by a cadre of
charismatic leaders for all that period who were able to put in place social
and community structures free of outside interference (D) in the midbar we
were pretty much isolated from those who would re-enslave or persecute us
(E) and when we did have to come face to face with them we had an army to
defend us. So really, where is the similarity?
African-Americans have none of those advantages we had, they are still in
the same country where their ancestors were slaves, in some areas still on
the same plots of land; their ancestors never had a single culture or
language coming as they did from all over Africa; their leaders were
murdered or imprisoned; there is still consideral racism and resistance to
black equality; and African-Americans have no automony.
> It's been 45 years since the enactment of the Civil Rights laws under
> President Johnson. That includes the South. That's more than 2
> generations.
Yeah, and 2000 years later the descendents to Hebrews who left Egypt are
still suffering the anti-Semitism of those who given the chance would deny
us our freedom, or worse. And most of us can "pass for white"...
> In the words of the esteemed liberals: Move On.
I met many liberal, some were steamed and some were half-baked, but none
were esteemed.
Fiona
mm
<ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
>"Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:UyxOm.66863$Pi5....@newsfe08.ams2...
>> "Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote
>>> "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote
>>>
>>>> Non-whites in the USA have only really been free (i.e. had all legal
>>>> disabilites removed), for less 50 years, taking that into consideration
>>>> against a backdrop of 400 years of slavery and discrimiation, you cannot
>>>
>>> 50 years would be 1959. Right? AFAIK and IIRC
>>> blacks/negroes/aftros/african-americans in '59 were free. They had full
>>> freedom up here in the Yankee states. Perhaps your counter starts with
>>> the Civil Rights Act and refers mainly to the Southern states?
>>
>> The Southern States are part of the USA are they not?
>
>Indeed they are.
>
>Now let's bring some Jewish content to this discussion.
>
>Bnei Yisrael (Israelites) were enslaved in Egypt for either 210 or 400
>years. They wandered in the midbar (desert) for 40 years. After those 40
>years (or 2 generations) the effect or impact of slavery and slave mentality
>was gone.
>
>It's been 45 years since the enactment of the Civil Rights laws under
>President Johnson. That includes the South. That's more than 2 generations.
Then what reason accounts for the performance on academic and economic
scales?
Do you think blacks are inferior?
>In the words of the esteemed liberals: Move On.
>
>Best,
>Abe
>
--
mm
I haven't finished this yet, but I have to take issue with this line:
"but we tell kids that "pink" means for girls and "blue" is for boys.
"White" and "black" are mysteries we leave them to figure out on their
own."
Pink is for fleishig and blue is for milchig.
>Best regards,
>---Cindy S.