Women of the Wall (WOW) uh oh ...

[David Makowsky]

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/thousands-of-orthodox-women-to-mix-with-wow-at-the-kotel/2013/05/09/

[cindys]

On May 9, 12:12 pm, David Makowsky <dlmakow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/thousands-of-orthodox-w...

-------
So, it would seem that thousands of Orthodox female seminary students
are going to appear at the Kotel on Rosh Chodesh (when WoW will be
there) as a protest against WoW. And W4W is going to be there
protesting WoW too. Should be interesting. I guess it's not only the
charedi men who are against WoW.
Best regards,
----Cindy S.

[JJ]

"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4e5464b4-3a34-4c5c...@s18g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...

*********************************************

Nonsense. Read the entire story. Two rabbis have TOLD their students to show
up tomorrow morning at the kotel. These students never bothered to show up
on Rosh Chodesh before, during the 24 years that WoW HAVE been showing up.
They're only coming (if they do) because the rabbis told them to.

Jay

[mirjam]

On Friday, May 10, 2013 1:10:06 AM UTC+3, cindys wrote:
Those Seminar students and High school girls, are not there because they wanted or chose to do it, They were ORDERED by some Rabbis to do it ,
The ladies of the Kotel were rather amused and announced that it will be wonderful to have so many women present.

A Member of Knesset whose name i missed, called to the Minister of Education to forbid this Use of pupils for a political agenda.
mirjam

[Yisroel Markov]

On Fri, 10 May 2013 03:58:32 +0000 (UTC), mirjam <mir...@actcom.co.il>
said:

>On Friday, May 10, 2013 1:10:06 AM UTC+3, cindys wrote:
>Those Seminar students and High school girls, are not there because they wanted or chose to do it, They were ORDERED by some Rabbis to do it ,
>The ladies of the Kotel were rather amused and announced that it will be wonderful to have so many women present.
>
>A Member of Knesset whose name i missed, called to the Minister of Education to forbid this Use of pupils for a political agenda.
>mirjam

I also oppose such use, but the article cited doesn't say anything of
the sort. All it says is: "...several Haredi leaders [...] have
determined that thousands of seminary students may leave home early
Friday morning..."

One doesn't need permission to leave home early, so I'm guessing is
that the permission is for being late to school.

I agree with the author that the WoW's reaction was exactly right.

BTW, the author (Yori Yanover) also wrote: "But in a women-only
congregation there shouldn�t be a problem with women�s �laining,�..."
AFAIK that is halakhically incorrect. Such a congregation still needs
a male minyan present. (OTOH, a Megillat Esther reading would not
require that.)

[snip]
--
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand

[Yisroel Markov]

On Thu, 9 May 2013 16:12:20 +0000 (UTC), David Makowsky
<dlmak...@gmail.com> said:

>http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/thousands-of-orthodox-women-to-mix-with-wow-at-the-kotel/2013/05/09/

Here's one report on how it went, with video:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/167903

Another states:
------------------

Thousands of orthodox Jewish young women and girls gathered at the
Kotel on Friday morning before and during the Women of the Wall's
appearance, in a display of support for traditional Jewish practice at
the holy site and because it was Rosh Chodesh Sivan. They filled the
entire women's section as they often do and the Women of the Wall,
numbering less than 30, were barely noticeable in the crowd.

Arutz Sheva's Rochel Sylvetsky, who was at the Kotel, observed that
"since majority rules in democracies, the WoW's paltry showing proves
that they have no right to demand the changes opposed by so many, but
since Israel is an enlightened democracy, the courts did gve the
minority group the right to a place to pray - which they refused
because they seem to relish the attention." She praised the quiet
prayers of the thousands of young women and expressed regret that some
of the men acted threateningly towards the Women of the Wall
supporters. "It would have been much better to prove their point
quietly, through the masses of traditional women who showed who the
real women of the wall are," she said.

Groups of young men who crowded the men's section insulted the Women
of the Wall members, shouted and ran towards them when they were
leaving. There were reports of at least one person throwing water at
the group. Police were on hand to ensure that the prayer rally went
smoothly, and arrested three people for disturbing the gathering.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/167909

[JJ]

"Yisroel Markov" <ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote in message
news:7rtpo89a0qs3re9k2...@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 10 May 2013 03:58:32 +0000 (UTC), mirjam <mir...@actcom.co.il>
> said:
>
>>On Friday, May 10, 2013 1:10:06 AM UTC+3, cindys wrote:
>>Those Seminar students and High school girls, are not there because they
>>wanted or chose to do it, They were ORDERED by some Rabbis to do it ,
>>The ladies of the Kotel were rather amused and announced that it will be
>>wonderful to have so many women present.
>>
>>A Member of Knesset whose name i missed, called to the Minister of
>>Education to forbid this Use of pupils for a political agenda.
>>mirjam
>
> I also oppose such use, but the article cited doesn't say anything of
> the sort. All it says is: "...several Haredi leaders [...] have
> determined that thousands of seminary students may leave home early
> Friday morning..."
>
> One doesn't need permission to leave home early, so I'm guessing is
> that the permission is for being late to school.
>

Read a better article. The Israeli press has been saying for days that:

quote

One day before the service, Rabbi Aharon Leib Shteynman, a haredi leader,
called on thousands of students to protest Women of the Wall.

end quote

and all the Israeli papers, for the last three days, have been explaining
that Shteynman is the head of haredi education. In short, if you want your
diploma, you better show up.

The female haredi students did show up, and behaved VERY well and
respectfully. Some gave flowers to the WoW. The tefillot went fine. Except
for some flying chairs, trash, some water and a lot of cursing coming from
the male side.

Jay

[Yisroel Markov]

On Fri, 10 May 2013 15:27:04 +0000 (UTC), "JJ" <dmr...@gmail.com>
said:

Are you sure that's how it works? I mean, I won't be surprised if it
does (sadly), but I'd be annoyed. That'd be a Soviet-like practice.

>The female haredi students did show up, and behaved VERY well and
>respectfully. Some gave flowers to the WoW. The tefillot went fine. Except
>for some flying chairs, trash, some water and a lot of cursing coming from
>the male side.

[nod] So it seems.

[W. Baker]

Yisroel Markov <ey.m...@munginame.com> wrote:
: On Fri, 10 May 2013 03:58:32 +0000 (UTC), mirjam <mir...@actcom.co.il>

: said:

: >On Friday, May 10, 2013 1:10:06 AM UTC+3, cindys wrote:
: >Those Seminar students and High school girls, are not there because they wanted or chose to do it, They were ORDERED by some Rabbis to do it ,
: >The ladies of the Kotel were rather amused and announced that it will be wonderful to have so many women present.
: >
: >A Member of Knesset whose name i missed, called to the Minister of Education to forbid this Use of pupils for a political agenda.
: >mirjam

: I also oppose such use, but the article cited doesn't say anything of
: the sort. All it says is: "...several Haredi leaders [...] have
: determined that thousands of seminary students may leave home early
: Friday morning..."

: One doesn't need permission to leave home early, so I'm guessing is
: that the permission is for being late to school.

: I agree with the author that the WoW's reaction was exactly right.

: BTW, the author (Yori Yanover) also wrote: "But in a women-only

: congregation there shouldn?t be a problem with women?s ?laining,?..."
: AFAIK that is halakhically incorrect. Such a congregation still needs

: a male minyan present. (OTOH, a Megillat Esther reading would not
: require that.)

: [snip]
: --
: Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
: www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC

No male Minyan required at our O Women's tefiilah, held in a room in the
symagogue building. We donot say barchu, when havign anAliya, and should
omit , in our earlier prayers the blessing aobut torah, but we layan from
a toral scroll and recite the Torah blessings befoe and after our aliya.
In order for us to hold this service there MUST NOT be a male minyan
present (they would then have to take over the whole davvening, etc) so no
more than 9 males post Bar Mitzvah may be present. this can make for a
kind fo rotation behind the mehitza, where the few men in attendance
sit,when we have a Bat Mitvah davvening or layaning.
This was approximately the protocol that WOW were following when they
first started, but the hstility they recieved with diapers adn chairs
bein thrown from , mostly , the mens side over the mehitza, that a more
plitical elementn, not necessarily O, got involved, introducing taleisim
and tefillin, nand kippot.

Wendy Baker

[JJ]

"Yisroel Markov" <ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote in message

news:vr7qo8p3qjd5i66u3...@4ax.com...

No, I'm not sure that the threat is explicit, but how many yeshiva girls do
you know who would disobey a direct order from their rabbi? The implicit
threat is there, in my opinion. The rabbi said to go, I'd better be there,
especially when it's instead of going to school.

Jay

[Yisroel Markov]

On Fri, 10 May 2013 14:50:03 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
<ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> said:

>On Thu, 9 May 2013 16:12:20 +0000 (UTC), David Makowsky
><dlmak...@gmail.com> said:
>
>>http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/thousands-of-orthodox-women-to-mix-with-wow-at-the-kotel/2013/05/09/
>
>Here's one report on how it went, with video:
>
>http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/167903

Ronit Peskin of the Women for the Wall gives her take:
-----------------------------------------------------

Massive Prayer Rally at the Kotel Today - The Good, the Bad, and the
Ugly

I have very mixed emotions about today�s massive tfilla rally at the
kotel today. There are certain things that make me really happy about
it, and there are certain things that sadden me greatly, and other
things that make me mad. I�ll try do address them all [...]

The Good
People from all walks of religiosity came to the Kotel today and
prayed for achdus. The media reporting is so biased that they
conveniently left out the dati leumi and secular and traditional women
who came out at the initiation of Women For the Wall to pray for
unity. We bused in people from dati leumi communities, dati leumi
schools sent girls. But the media conveniently chose to make this a
�Chareidi vs WoW� thing, when it really wasn�t. [...]

When we approached the Chareidi gedolim and told them what we want to
do on Rosh Chodesh, they backed us and called for thousands to come.
And they added something that wasn�t my original intention. �Fill up
the space so that WoW can�t get in.� Kol Hakavod to the Gedolim, but
that really wasn�t my intention, nor was it the intention of the other
W4W founders. [...]

The Bad
Judy Maltz, from Haaretz, who was so nasty to me today at the Kotel.
When I approached her, because I wanted to tell her about why I
initiated this prayer rally today, she laughed in my face and said
�You initiated it? No! The Chareidi rabbis did!� I told her that I and
my group approached the Chareidi rabbis in the past few weeks and that
is why specifically they called out for everyone to come out today,
and she looks me in my face and says �Yea right. You are completely
delusional and out of your mind.� [...]

The Ugly
Now, as for the thing that really upset me about today. There was a
massive chillul Hashem, that made people ignore the massive kiddush
Hashem that we made, of having thousands of women at the kotel,
praying peacefully, for a specific cause.

What exactly was this chillul Hashem? Well, if you�ve read the news at
ALL, that�s probably all you heard about. Chareidi guys being nasty
and violent towards the Women of the Wall. Towards me too, might I
add. [...]

As chareidi guys were getting more and more bothersome, the police did
something REALLY smart. They surrounded the barricade by a thick line
of women and girls, to protect the Women of the Wall. Poof - no more
violence. So the women who came to daven at the Kotel ended up
protecting the women they came to protest.

Now about those chareidi thugs. Something that needs addressing.

First off, that the ratio of people at the kotel was about 8:1 women
vs men. The media conveniently forget to mention the mass amounts of
women who were there and were not violent. They would rather focus on
the �juicy details� - the terrible chareidi guys - when in fact, there
were about maybe 50-75 chareidi guys causing trouble, and all the rest
of the chareidi guys there were davening peacefully on the men�s side.

Full article at
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/massive-prayer-rally-at-the-kotel-today-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/

[mm]

On Fri, 10 May 2013 15:27:04 +0000 (UTC), "JJ" <dmr...@gmail.com>

wrote:

Do you think they took attendance? Or is this just your hosillity
showing.

Equating the announcement of a demostration with an order that
subordinates must attend, which someone else here did, is not
reasonable. When they announced all the anti-war demonstrations,
civil-rights demonstratoins, the demonstrations for Soviet Jewry in
NYC every year and on the Mall in DC, people came because they wanted
to and because they knew there was a demonstration.

It would be rather silly for a person to show up on his own, with no
reason to thnk anyone else would be there, when he could instead wait
for a planned demonstration.

And to suggest that these girls, at least the ones 10 years old or
more, have no opinions on this is pretty insulting to them.

>
>The female haredi students did show up, and behaved VERY well and
>respectfully. Some gave flowers to the WoW. The tefillot went fine. Except
>for some flying chairs, trash, some water and a lot of cursing coming from
>the male side.
>
>Jay
>
>

--

Meir

[mm]

On Fri, 10 May 2013 17:24:25 +0000 (UTC), "JJ" <dmr...@gmail.com>
wrote:

What exactly did he say? Above you said he called upon them to go.
That's not a direct order.

> The implicit
>threat is there, in my opinion.

It would have been better if you had said in the first place that this
was your opinion, instead of making it sound like you knew from
someone telling you or prior similar events, where diplomas were
actually withheld.


See, Malcomn, it's not just you I pick on for this sort of thing.

>The rabbi said to go, I'd better be there,
>especially when it's instead of going to school.

That makes sense, since the time is during school hours, unless she
disagrees with the rabbi or she has some other reason.. But now
you're saying what the girl might think. You're not claiming he's
threatening to deny her her diploma or that she thinks he will. .



>Jay
>
>
>
>

--

Meir

[Giorgies E Kepipesiom]

On May 10, 11:27 am, "JJ" <dmr1...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> and all the Israeli papers, for the last three days, have been explaining
> that Shteynman is the head of haredi education. In short, if you want your
> diploma, you better show up.

News to me. He is the head of Some Lithuanian-style haredi education -
not the hassic or sapharadic haredi education. I highly doubt he has
the power, let alone the authority, to veto the diploma of a student
who has attended the classes and passed the examinations.

GEK

[mm]

Well this raises a new question for me. I had assumed that the
Borchu that women were not allowed to say without a minyan was the
one before the Shma, at the beginning of Ma'ariv, but you seem to be
saying it's also the one each man with an aliyah says during Torah
reading.

Is it both? Are there any others?

>omit , in our earlier prayers the blessing aobut torah,

???

> but we layan from
>a toral scroll and recite the Torah blessings befoe and after our aliya.

Now I'm really confused Above you said "We donot say barchu, when
havign anAliya"

>In order for us to hold this service there MUST NOT be a male minyan
>present (they would then have to take over the whole davvening, etc) so no
>more than 9 males post Bar Mitzvah may be present. this can make for a
>kind fo rotation behind the mehitza, where the few men in attendance
>sit,when we have a Bat Mitvah davvening or layaning.
>This was approximately the protocol that WOW were following when they
>first started, but the hstility they recieved with diapers adn chairs
>bein thrown from , mostly , the mens side over the mehitza, that a more
>plitical elementn, not necessarily O, got involved, introducing taleisim
>and tefillin, nand kippot.
>
>Wendy Baker

--

Meir

[mirjam]

On Saturday, May 11, 2013 12:26:02 AM UTC+3, Giorgies E Kepipesiom wrote:
In a Strict Education system, One does not have `to threaten` with ways, When the Head person tells people to do something they do it.
mirjam

[W. Baker]

mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
: On Fri, 10 May 2013 16:51:21 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker"

I am talking aobut a Shacharit service when Barchu openin it. the
Barhu(or "Let us bless" is the one line of the leader and the
Baruch(Bless) is the second line. In torah reading this is then followed
by the blessing over the Torah, one said before the reading and the other
said after the layanning.

In a women;s davvening the saying of these blessing before and after the
Torah are said by the woman having the Aliya, IN PLACE OF the blessing for
the torah that is found in one's private prayers in the morning.

: Is it both? Are there any others?

: >omit , in our earlier prayers the blessing aobut torah,

: ???

(See above comment)

: > but we layan from

: >a toral scroll and recite the Torah blessings befoe and after our aliya.

: Now I'm really confused Above you said "We donot say barchu, when
: havign anAliya"

As I said above, the Barchu is always the two lines of asking the
congregation to
bless God andthen the congregation, in one line, blessing God or calling
him blessed, however you see that line. This , then is folowed by the
before and after blessing of the Torah said by the person having the
aliya.


: >In order for us to hold this service there MUST NOT be a male minyan

: >present (they would then have to take over the whole davvening, etc) so no
: >more than 9 males post Bar Mitzvah may be present. this can make for a
: >kind fo rotation behind the mehitza, where the few men in attendance
: >sit,when we have a Bat Mitvah davvening or layaning.
: >This was approximately the protocol that WOW were following when they
: >first started, but the hstility they recieved with diapers adn chairs
: >bein thrown from , mostly , the mens side over the mehitza, that a more
: >plitical elementn, not necessarily O, got involved, introducing taleisim
: >and tefillin, nand kippot.
: >
: >Wendy Baker

: Meir
:

Wendy

[Yisroel Markov]

On Fri, 10 May 2013 16:51:21 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker"

OK, with these caveats I understand how it can be done.

>This was approximately the protocol that WOW were following when they
>first started, but the hstility they recieved with diapers adn chairs
>bein thrown from , mostly , the mens side over the mehitza, that a more
>plitical elementn, not necessarily O, got involved, introducing taleisim
>and tefillin, nand kippot.

So at least some of these women use those ritual objects to provoke.
Just as we thought.

--
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC

[W. Baker]

Yisroel Markov <ey.m...@munginame.com> wrote:
: On Fri, 10 May 2013 16:51:21 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker"

Not necessicerily, as they are women from congregations that have women
wear taleisim, tefillin, kippot, etc. When they come to davven at eht
Kotel they come as they usually do in thier home congregations. that they
felt the need to support the O women who are looking for the oportunity to
davven halachically, at the Kotel, might well be political, but the
alternative is to leave the O women , not necessarily a large group, to
stand alone.

While I do not feel the need to davven halachically with other women at
the Kotel, that does not mean that I can't sympathize with them and
strongly resent the attitude that can take such extremely nasty actions
towards them, leading to the need for political action. As I wrote
in another group, I think the Kotel whould not be a Synagogue at all. Let
it be a place for private prayer, celebratign its continued existance and
symbolizing much of our past history as Jews in the land. Perhaps there
could be portable mehitza for a group to set up for a service they wish to
hold, etc.

Wendy

[Yisroel Markov]

On Mon, 13 May 2013 15:21:53 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker"

<wba...@panix.com> said:

>Yisroel Markov <ey.m...@munginame.com> wrote:
>: On Fri, 10 May 2013 16:51:21 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker"
>: <wba...@panix.com> said:

[snip]

>: >This was approximately the protocol that WOW were following when they
>: >first started, but the hstility they recieved with diapers adn chairs
>: >bein thrown from , mostly , the mens side over the mehitza, that a more
>: >plitical elementn, not necessarily O, got involved, introducing taleisim
>: >and tefillin, nand kippot.
>
>: So at least some of these women use those ritual objects to provoke.
>: Just as we thought.
>: --
>: Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
>: www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC
>: --------------------------------------------------------------------
>: "Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
>
>Not necessicerily, as they are women from congregations that have women
>wear taleisim, tefillin, kippot, etc. When they come to davven at eht
>Kotel they come as they usually do in thier home congregations.

My comment doesn't apply to those women. In fact, it doesn't apply to
any woman who uses these items habitually.

Does Ms. Hoffman pray with tefillin every weekday? If not, my comment
applies to her.

>that they
>felt the need to support the O women who are looking for the oportunity to
>davven halachically, at the Kotel, might well be political, but the
>alternative is to leave the O women , not necessarily a large group, to
>stand alone.

[snip]
--
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC

[W. Baker]

Yisroel Markov <ey.m...@munginame.com> wrote:
: On Mon, 13 May 2013 15:21:53 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker"

: <wba...@panix.com> said:

: >Yisroel Markov <ey.m...@munginame.com> wrote:
: >: On Fri, 10 May 2013 16:51:21 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker"
: >: <wba...@panix.com> said:

: [snip]

: >: >This was approximately the protocol that WOW were following when they
: >: >first started, but the hstility they recieved with diapers adn chairs
: >: >bein thrown from , mostly , the mens side over the mehitza, that a more
: >: >plitical elementn, not necessarily O, got involved, introducing taleisim
: >: >and tefillin, nand kippot.
: >
: >: So at least some of these women use those ritual objects to provoke.
: >: Just as we thought.
: >: --
: >: Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
: >: www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC
: >: --------------------------------------------------------------------
: >: "Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
: >
: >Not necessicerily, as they are women from congregations that have women
: >wear taleisim, tefillin, kippot, etc. When they come to davven at eht
: >Kotel they come as they usually do in thier home congregations.

: My comment doesn't apply to those women. In fact, it doesn't apply to
: any woman who uses these items habitually.

: Does Ms. Hoffman pray with tefillin every weekday? If not, my comment
: applies to her.

Perhaps tht question might be, "Does Ms Hoffman pray with tefillin as
often as her Conservative male conterparts?"

: >that they

: >felt the need to support the O women who are looking for the oportunity to
: >davven halachically, at the Kotel, might well be political, but the
: >alternative is to leave the O women , not necessarily a large group, to
: >stand alone.

: [snip]
: --
: Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member

Wendy

[Shelly]

On 5/13/2013 1:09 PM, W. Baker wrote:
> : My comment doesn't apply to those women. In fact, it doesn't apply to
> : any woman who uses these items habitually.
>
> : Does Ms. Hoffman pray with tefillin every weekday? If not, my comment
> : applies to her.
>
> Perhaps tht question might be, "Does Ms Hoffman pray with tefillin as
> often as her Conservative male conterparts?"

Is she Conservative? If she is Reform, then replace Conservative with
Reform. While I do not know of any Reform person (male or female) that
uses teffilin, I have seen Reform people (male and female) use tallessim.

--
Shelly

[Herman Rubin]

On 2013-05-13, Yisroel Markov <ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 13 May 2013 15:21:53 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker"
><wba...@panix.com> said:

>>Yisroel Markov <ey.m...@munginame.com> wrote:
>>: On Fri, 10 May 2013 16:51:21 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker"
>>: <wba...@panix.com> said:

> [snip]

>>: >This was approximately the protocol that WOW were following when they
>>: >first started, but the hstility they recieved with diapers adn chairs
>>: >bein thrown from , mostly , the mens side over the mehitza, that a more
>>: >plitical elementn, not necessarily O, got involved, introducing taleisim
>>: >and tefillin, nand kippot.

>>: So at least some of these women use those ritual objects to provoke.
>>: Just as we thought.

>>Not necessicerily, as they are women from congregations that have women
>>wear taleisim, tefillin, kippot, etc. When they come to davven at eht
>>Kotel they come as they usually do in thier home congregations.

> My comment doesn't apply to those women. In fact, it doesn't apply to
> any woman who uses these items habitually.

> Does Ms. Hoffman pray with tefillin every weekday? If not, my comment
> applies to her.

Does every man who prays with tefillin use them every weekday?

I think the answer is no. Few Reform Jews use tefillin, but do
use tallitoth when they pray. The original arrest was for putting
on a tallith.

>>that they
>>felt the need to support the O women who are looking for the oportunity to
>>davven halachically, at the Kotel, might well be political, but the
>>alternative is to leave the O women , not necessarily a large group, to
>>stand alone.

They are not trying to daven according to accepted Orthodox halakhah;
they are not Orthodox. They are trying to daven according to their
Jewish view of halakhah. It does not agree with yours.

> [snip]


--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hru...@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

[Yisroel Markov]

On Wed, 15 May 2013 19:33:33 +0000 (UTC), Herman Rubin
<hru...@skew.stat.purdue.edu> said:

>On 2013-05-13, Yisroel Markov <ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 May 2013 15:21:53 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker"
>><wba...@panix.com> said:
>
>>>Yisroel Markov <ey.m...@munginame.com> wrote:
>>>: On Fri, 10 May 2013 16:51:21 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker"
>>>: <wba...@panix.com> said:
>
>> [snip]
>
>>>: >This was approximately the protocol that WOW were following when they
>>>: >first started, but the hstility they recieved with diapers adn chairs
>>>: >bein thrown from , mostly , the mens side over the mehitza, that a more
>>>: >plitical elementn, not necessarily O, got involved, introducing taleisim
>>>: >and tefillin, nand kippot.
>
>>>: So at least some of these women use those ritual objects to provoke.
>>>: Just as we thought.
>
>>>Not necessicerily, as they are women from congregations that have women
>>>wear taleisim, tefillin, kippot, etc. When they come to davven at eht
>>>Kotel they come as they usually do in thier home congregations.
>
>> My comment doesn't apply to those women. In fact, it doesn't apply to
>> any woman who uses these items habitually.
>
>> Does Ms. Hoffman pray with tefillin every weekday? If not, my comment
>> applies to her.
>
>Does every man who prays with tefillin use them every weekday?

Every observant man, yes.

>I think the answer is no. Few Reform Jews use tefillin, but do
>use tallitoth when they pray. The original arrest was for putting
>on a tallith.

As you probably know, I don't think these arrests were a smart idea.
But my question is about tefillin. Not talitot, and not any arrests.

>>>that they
>>>felt the need to support the O women who are looking for the oportunity to
>>>davven halachically, at the Kotel, might well be political, but the
>>>alternative is to leave the O women , not necessarily a large group, to
>>>stand alone.
>
>They are not trying to daven according to accepted Orthodox halakhah;
>they are not Orthodox. They are trying to daven according to their
>Jewish view of halakhah. It does not agree with yours.

Does their view mandate wearing tefillin, ever? If not, then they are
choosing to use an optional item where they know it will cause strife.
But then we knew that at least for some WoW the main point is to
engage in civil disobedience, rather than pray.

A Jew doesn't *have* to pray on the Temple Mount, where it's certain
to offend Muslims. So how would you characterize the Jews who insist
on doing it?

"An acquaintance of mine was once sitting on a plane to Israel next to
a newly-minted PhD. student from Michigan, who told her that her trip
to Israel to study at a �non-Orthodox yeshiva� had been fully funded.
Asked what specifically she would be doing in Israel, the young woman
replied excitedly that she would be going to the Kosel �to put on a
shmatte (old rag).� Noting the older woman�s puzzled look, she
continued, �You know, a shmatte,� while miming putting on a tallis.
The prime attraction of the Kosel for her was the frisson of causing
Orthodox Jews to gnash their teeth."

Full article at
http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2013/04/18/when-sincerity-is-not-enough/#ixzz2TZ5fw84E

[W. Baker]

Yisroel Markov <ey.m...@munginame.com> wrote:
: >>>that they

: >>>felt the need to support the O women who are looking for the oportunity to
: >>>davven halachically, at the Kotel, might well be political, but the
: >>>alternative is to leave the O women , not necessarily a large group, to
: >>>stand alone.
: >
: >They are not trying to daven according to accepted Orthodox halakhah;
: >they are not Orthodox. They are trying to daven according to their
: >Jewish view of halakhah. It does not agree with yours.

: Does their view mandate wearing tefillin, ever? If not, then they are
: choosing to use an optional item where they know it will cause strife.
: But then we knew that at least for some WoW the main point is to
: engage in civil disobedience, rather than pray.

There are some O women who do davven daily wearing tallit and tefillin.
they have taken on the obligation, originally by do it three times with
intent. Should they, if davvening at the kotel actually commit a avera by
not wering their now obligated tefillin and tallit? They are few , but i
know several.

: A Jew doesn't *have* to pray on the Temple Mount, where it's certain

: to offend Muslims. So how would you characterize the Jews who insist
: on doing it?

: "An acquaintance of mine was once sitting on a plane to Israel next to
: a newly-minted PhD. student from Michigan, who told her that her trip

: to Israel to study at a ?non-Orthodox yeshiva? had been fully funded.

: Asked what specifically she would be doing in Israel, the young woman

: replied excitedly that she would be going to the Kosel ?to put on a
: shmatte (old rag).? Noting the older woman?s puzzled look, she
: continued, ?You know, a shmatte,? while miming putting on a tallis.

: The prime attraction of the Kosel for her was the frisson of causing
: Orthodox Jews to gnash their teeth."

this is what has happened because of the nastiness and opposition of the
Chareidim to the original O women's tefilla who then needed defending or
supporting . I may not agree with the non-halachic aspects of WOW
davvening(some saying of Kaddish, etc) that has happened with the group
that has arrived to be supporters and defenders and political activists,
but I understand it and blams the initial hostile attacks on the original
WOW who wanted to hold their service quietly on their side of the
mehitzah.

Wendy
: Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member

[Yisroel Markov]

On Fri, 17 May 2013 16:11:34 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker"
<wba...@panix.com> said:

>Yisroel Markov <ey.m...@munginame.com> wrote:
>: >>>that they
>: >>>felt the need to support the O women who are looking for the oportunity to
>: >>>davven halachically, at the Kotel, might well be political, but the
>: >>>alternative is to leave the O women , not necessarily a large group, to
>: >>>stand alone.
>: >
>: >They are not trying to daven according to accepted Orthodox halakhah;
>: >they are not Orthodox. They are trying to daven according to their
>: >Jewish view of halakhah. It does not agree with yours.
>
>: Does their view mandate wearing tefillin, ever? If not, then they are
>: choosing to use an optional item where they know it will cause strife.
>: But then we knew that at least for some WoW the main point is to
>: engage in civil disobedience, rather than pray.
>
>There are some O women who do davven daily wearing tallit and tefillin.
>they have taken on the obligation, originally by do it three times with
>intent. Should they, if davvening at the kotel actually commit a avera by
>not wering their now obligated tefillin and tallit? They are few , but i
>know several.

AFAIK, halakhically a person can't obligate oneself in an optional
mitzva other than by an oath. "Three times with intent" is a popular
notion, but I don't know where it comes from. It seems a misuse of the
hazaka principle.

But supposing that these women have indeed so obligated themselves -
it may very well be that a Sanhedrin would obligate them to pray so
attired in private. No one *has* to daven at the Kotel. There has to
be a balance between personal desires and communal norms.

>: A Jew doesn't *have* to pray on the Temple Mount, where it's certain
>: to offend Muslims. So how would you characterize the Jews who insist
>: on doing it?
>
>: "An acquaintance of mine was once sitting on a plane to Israel next to
>: a newly-minted PhD. student from Michigan, who told her that her trip
>: to Israel to study at a ?non-Orthodox yeshiva? had been fully funded.
>: Asked what specifically she would be doing in Israel, the young woman
>: replied excitedly that she would be going to the Kosel ?to put on a
>: shmatte (old rag).? Noting the older woman?s puzzled look, she
>: continued, ?You know, a shmatte,? while miming putting on a tallis.
>: The prime attraction of the Kosel for her was the frisson of causing
>: Orthodox Jews to gnash their teeth."
>
>this is what has happened because of the nastiness and opposition of the
>Chareidim to the original O women's tefilla who then needed defending or
>supporting . I may not agree with the non-halachic aspects of WOW
>davvening(some saying of Kaddish, etc) that has happened with the group
>that has arrived to be supporters and defenders and political activists,
>but I understand it and blams the initial hostile attacks on the original
>WOW who wanted to hold their service quietly on their side of the
>mehitzah.

No argument here, if that's how it originally was.
--