More on segregated busses in Israel
Jay L
Ma'ariv calls on Transportation Minister Yisrael Katz to accept the
recommendations of a committee he appointed and bar the Egged and Dan
bus companies from operating lines to and from ultra-orthodox areas in
which women are obliged to sit at the back of the bus. If the
Minister does not, the author believes, "he will lose more of whatever
prestige as he has left."
Jay
sheldonlg
My opinion -- If the bus companies ensure that there is a regular bus
within 1 minute of each of the segregated buses, then I don't see a
problem with it as it then simply becomes an extra option for those that
want it. It is like when there were separate smoking rooms in
restaurants for those that wanted to smoke at dinner. So long as the
rest of the people are accommodated with no added inconvenience, then
having something for a special group is OK.
Of course, if having those buses means a decrease in general service, or
not supplying enough service to meet the demand of the general public,
then it is not OK (IMO).
Jay L
Why not have the same here? Busses for Jews only, or for African-
Americans only, provided a "regular" bus shows up within a minute, and
the Jew or African-American can choose which bus to get on. Hey, the
Moslems would love it -- the more devout among them don't permit wives
and daughters to go out alone. This way the Moslem women would have
their own "Moslem women" bus.
You know what, Shel? I would do away with these busses. The UOs can
learn to live in the 21st century, or get their own damn busses. The
last episode of O soldiers waving banners of which orders they will
and will not obey at their swearing in ceremony at the kotel really
broke this camel's back. Those soldiers were sentenced to 20- days
brig time. I would sentence their rabbis to two years in jail.
Jay
fla...@verizon.net
On 29-Oct-2009, Jay L <levi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why not have the same here? Busses for Jews only, or for African-
> Americans only
Thanks for admitting that you really don't know
why there are sex-segregated busses in Israel.
or are you, like I said, going to pay for buses
that revserse the seats?
Susan
sheldonlg
I'll modify it. How about if they pay a reasonable leasing fee and
subsidize whatever fares don't match to cover the cost of drivwrs, gas,
and maintainers? Essentially, it would be a charter arrangement.
sheldonlg
He knows. He also said "let them buy their own buses".
Jay L
P-L-E-A-Z-Z !! I know precisely why there are segregated busses in
Israel. If you spoke to as many Israelis as I do, on a daily basis,
and read the local papers as I do, perhaps you would realize how the O
establishment has been encroaching on Israeli society step by step by
step, and literally choking the country. The now have inspections of
stores to make sure Jews don't work on Shabbat (reminding people of
how certain other groups used to ask Jews for "papers"), there are
limitations on transportation, ther army is not immune from rabbinic
encroachment, and the humrot on conversions grow worse by the week.
Learn a littkle before you spout of. A lot of Israelis are simply
getting fed up. I am one of them.
If the church were to try to force such measures in the US, there
would be violence in the streets.
Jay
Steve Goldfarb
>I'll modify it. How about if they pay a reasonable leasing fee and
>subsidize whatever fares don't match to cover the cost of drivwrs, gas,
>and maintainers? Essentially, it would be a charter arrangement.
Depends on your view of the proper role of government, I think.
One approach would be to say OK, if 51% of the bus riders want segregated
buses (or smoking buses, or black-free buses, or topless buses, or
whatever else) then they should be allowed to have them.
The opposite approach would be to say if even one person wanted to ride on
a non-segregated bus, and that forcing that one person (or even some
hypothetical person) to ride the segregated bus violates his or her
rights, then it's the government's duty to ensure non-segregated buses.
The conflict in rights is "I have a right to tell you where to sit" versus
"I have a right to sit wherever I want," in my view while the former
doesn't necessarily have zero weight, it's definitely trumped by the
latter.
I would say that the bus riders who desire segregation are free to charter
their own buses and do what they like, though. (there is an argument that
could be made that they shouldn't be allowed to do it even on their own
buses, but I don't think I'd support that argument)
--s
--
Steve Goldfarb
>P-L-E-A-Z-Z !! I know precisely why there are segregated busses in
>Israel. If you spoke to as many Israelis as I do, on a daily basis,
>and read the local papers as I do, perhaps you would realize how the O
>establishment has been encroaching on Israeli society step by step by
>step, and literally choking the country. The now have inspections of
>stores to make sure Jews don't work on Shabbat (reminding people of
>how certain other groups used to ask Jews for "papers"), there are
>limitations on transportation, ther army is not immune from rabbinic
>encroachment, and the humrot on conversions grow worse by the week.
>Learn a littkle before you spout of. A lot of Israelis are simply
>getting fed up. I am one of them.
>If the church were to try to force such measures in the US, there
>would be violence in the streets.
And the irony is that if Israel were to adopt a separation of religion and
state policy like we have here, they'd probably find that, like here, it
actually strengthens religion rather than weakening it.
There's an example in the paper yesterday or so about some school where
the cheerleaders were holding up religious messages, someone said "hey, we
might get sued" and therefore the school banned it and many students and
others started wearing religious messages on t-shirts and such in the
stands. While they felt like they were getting away with something, or
getting around something, as someone in the article pointed out that's
exactly how it's supposed to work.
--s
--
chsw
Perhaps there should not be a front/back division but a side/side
division. This would make it easier for pregnant and older women
to get on and off the front of the bus, unless there is a door
with a farebox in the middle or rear. Lastly, what about
handicapped passengers? Are there what in the USA are called
"kneeling" buses and buses with chair lifts? How would a
handicapped woman run a gantlet to the back of the bus? She
can't. Hence, if the Israelis want to make a de facto mechitza
on a bus, then side to side works better. Moreover, it would
also allow for female bus drivers (can't drive from the back, no
matter how some spouses try).
chsw
chsw
Good point, Steve. Privatize the bus system and the problem
disappears from public policy discussion and is simply handled by
competing segged and non-segged bus systems.
chsw
fla...@verizon.net
On 29-Oct-2009, Jay L <levi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 29, 12:59�pm, flav...@verizon.net wrote:
> > On 29-Oct-2009, Jay L <levin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Why not have the same here? �Busses for Jews only, or for African-
> > > Americans only
> >
> > Thanks for admitting that you really don't know
> > why there are sex-segregated busses in Israel.
> > or are you, like I said, going to pay for buses
> > that revserse the seats?
> >
> > Susan
>
> P-L-E-A-Z-Z !! I know precisely why there are segregated busses in
> Israel.
When you compare it to racism, you prove that you don't.
> If you spoke to as many Israelis as I do, on a daily basis,
> and read the local papers as I do, perhaps you would realize how the O
> establishment has been encroaching on Israeli society step by step by
> step, and literally choking the country. T
And the Israelis here, & the O here, who tell you othewrwise-
I guess you know more than they, right?
Oh, & even if you are right about "literally choking the country",
you have yet to rpove that it's discrimination.
> The now have inspections of
> stores to make sure Jews don't work on Shabbat (reminding people of
> how certain other groups used to ask Jews for "papers"), there are
> limitations on transportation, ther army is not immune from rabbinic
> encroachment, and the humrot on conversions grow worse by the week.
I don't care.
It has nothing to do with your pretense that these buses
have anything to do with bigotry towards women.
> Learn a littkle before you spout of.
You first - nothing you have said disproves what I said.
> A lot of Israelis are simply
> getting fed up. I am one of them.
>
> If the church were to try to force such measures in the US, there
> would be violence in the streets.
As well it should, we being a deliberately secular society.
Susan
Steve Goldfarb
>>
>> P-L-E-A-Z-Z !! I know precisely why there are segregated busses in
>> Israel.
>When you compare it to racism, you prove that you don't.
Serious question - what's the difference between holding a sincere belief
that whites and blacks shouldn't ride a bus together, versus holding a
sincere belief that men and women shouldn't ride a bus together?
I don't see any real difference. The basis for the belief (i.e., in one
case it's a desire for "racial purity" or something while in the other
it's a religious belief) doesn't make any difference, I don't think.
--s
--
Micha Berger
> This would make it easier for pregnant and older women
> to get on and off the front of the bus, unless there is a door
Women enter in the rear. Chareidim being as they are, money is simply
passed forward. Trust is taken for granted.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger It is our choices...that show what we truly are,
mi...@aishdas.org far more than our abilities.
http://www.aishdas.org - J. K. Rowling
Fax: (270) 514-1507
Matt Silberstein
soc.culture.jewish.moderated , "Steve Goldfarb" <s...@panix.com> in
<hccoep$li5$1...@reader1.panix.com> wrote:
Given how much of racism in the American South was supported by ideas
of the dangerous sexuality of Black Males and the fragility of White
Women, I wonder how different these ideas are.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
mm
wrote:
>
>Perhaps there should not be a front/back division but a side/side
>division. This would make it easier for pregnant and older women
>to get on and off the front of the bus, unless there is a door
>with a farebox in the middle or rear. Lastly, what about
>handicapped passengers? Are there what in the USA are called
>"kneeling" buses and buses with chair lifts? How would a
>handicapped woman run a gantlet to the back of the bus? She
>can't. Hence, if the Israelis want to make a de facto mechitza
>on a bus, then side to side works better.
This reminds me of the two sisters who lived in the same room. They
were fighting and agreed to split their room down the middle. However
the younger sister got the half with no door, and she couldn't get out
of the room. I think she's still there.
> Moreover, it would
>also allow for female bus drivers (can't drive from the back, no
>matter how some spouses try).
Did you know that, according to Jeopardy, the word started out meaning
someone who gave directions to the driver, his chauffeur or something.
>chsw
>
--
Meir
"The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
meir b.
(snip)
> You know what, Shel? I would do away with these busses. The UOs can
> learn to live in the 21st century, or get their own damn busses.
Perhaps you haven't been thorough enough in your reading of the
Israeli press. Those pressing for segregated buses have said, time and
again, that they are willing to run their own lines if that's what
separation necessitates. However, Egged opposes this solution,
because they don't want to lose their monopoly.
And by the way, the UO are not insistent on segregated busses, if
those doing the bussing are husband and wife. It's the buses they
want segregated.
Meir B.
sheldonlg
Meir, you have to of sufficient age to get that joke. That slang is no
longer used and hasn't been for a long time. I think, though, they UO
would still object to public bussing, even if husband and wife.
mm
wrote:
>
>You know what, Shel? I would do away with these busses. The UOs can
>learn to live in the 21st century, or get their own damn busses. The
>last episode of O soldiers waving banners of which orders they will
>and will not obey at their swearing in ceremony at the kotel really
>broke this camel's back. Those soldiers were sentenced to 20- days
>brig time. I would sentence their rabbis to two years in jail.
>
>Jay
Do you live in Israel, Jay? Do your children or parents? Which of
them lives is Israel?
I think you don't and you should take care of your own house and leave
Israel alone.
Jay L
> On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:19:21 +0000 (UTC), Jay L <levin...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >You know what, Shel? I would do away with these busses. The UOs can
> >learn to live in the 21st century, or get their own damn busses. The
> >last episode of O soldiers waving banners of which orders they will
> >and will not obey at their swearing in ceremony at the kotel really
> >broke this camel's back. Those soldiers were sentenced to 20- days
> >brig time. I would sentence their rabbis to two years in jail.
>
> >Jay
>
> Do you live in Israel, Jay? Do your children or parents? Which of
> them lives is Israel?
>
> I think you don't and you should take care of your own house and leave
> Israel alone.
>
You have no idea where my house is. I have parents, siblings, friends,
uncles, aunts, cousins, and a lot of business associates in Israel. I
speak with Israeli business associates on the phone 2-3 times a day,
and I am there fairly often.
Do you tell Matt the same thing? What do you want with Darfur? Take
care of your own house and stop worrying about those poor raped women
in Darfur? When I was in Washington demonstrating on behalf of Soviet
Jewry, did you counsel people to take care of their own house and stop
bothering the Soviets with the so-called Jewish problem? Would you
suggest that people who don't live in California should not be
concerned with the shootings in a synagogue there? Or that those who
are not gay should not bother with gay rights, or men should not
bother with reproduction rights for women?
I love Israel, I grew up there, I served in her military, I studied
there, I support her, and I care very much when I see a country being
destroyed because of fanaticism and 14th century idiocies. Perhaps you
would care too, if you really cared about Israel.
Jay
fla...@verizon.net
On 30-Oct-2009, Jay L <levi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What do you want with Darfur? Take
> care of your own house and stop worrying about those poor raped women
> in Darfur?
Thank you for continuing to show your ignorance
about why the buses are even there in the first place.
Susan
Matt Silberstein
soc.culture.jewish.moderated , sheldonlg <shel...@giganews.com> in
<YeidnfwyxZ_0L3TX...@giganews.com> wrote:
How could it not decrease general service? Those other buses aren't
free, they have to come from somewhere and out of some budget.
Harry Weiss
They want to. Egged is begging them use their busses so they can make
the money on it.
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
Harry Weiss
Because of the extreme high usage, the segregated busses are highly
profitable and Egged in putting all pressure to stop the Charedim from
taking the business away from them.
Harry Weiss
Egged is not run by the Government. It is a cooperative owned by the
drivers.
> chsw
Steve Goldfarb
>> Good point, Steve. Privatize the bus system and the problem
>> disappears from public policy discussion and is simply handled by
>> competing segged and non-segged bus systems.
>Egged is not run by the Government. It is a cooperative owned by the
>drivers.
Can anybody who wants to run a bus line, or is there (as there usually is)
a need to get a license from the government?
But in any case, the most important point in this whole issue, IMO, is
that an ISRAELI court ruled that the segregation is illegal. Or at least
improper.
--s
--
Jay L
> In <hcf7p9$iv...@reader1.panix.com> Harry Weiss <hjwe...@panix.com> writes:
>
> >> Good point, Steve. Privatize the bus system and the problem
> >> disappears from public policy discussion and is simply handled by
> >> competing segged and non-segged bus systems.
> >Egged is not run by the Government. It is a cooperative owned by the
> >drivers.
>
> Can anybody who wants to run a bus line, or is there (as there usually is)
> a need to get a license from the government?
>
You need a license. You probably won't get one. Egged is a virtual
monopoly, and also gets a subsidy (mostly for security purposes) from
the government.
> But in any case, the most important point in this whole issue, IMO, is
> that an ISRAELI court ruled that the segregation is illegal. Or at least
> improper.
No, the court ruled that based on the Transportation Ministry's own
findings, this is ILLEGAL.
Jay
>
> --s
> --
sheldonlg
Grow up and take off your blinders. He knows full well, despite your
snide remarks. He is talking about a civil rights issue and what he
calls "religious fanaticism". Howe is that "not knowing why the buses
are even there in the first place"? Frankly, I think he has many times
more the PERSONAL experience with Israel than you do.
Wake up and smell the roses.
Steve Goldfarb
>You need a license. You probably won't get one. Egged is a virtual
>monopoly, and also gets a subsidy (mostly for security purposes) from
>the government.
That's what I thought, so it's basically a public utility.
>> But in any case, the most important point in this whole issue, IMO, is
>> that an ISRAELI court ruled that the segregation is illegal. Or at least
>> improper.
>No, the court ruled that based on the Transportation Ministry's own
>findings, this is ILLEGAL.
Why did you begin that sentence with a "no" when you're agreeing with me?
"Yes, the court ruled that based on...."
--s
--
Jay L
> In <d9a8d503-f210-41a6-90df-863da7a7f...@m26g2000yqb.googlegroups.com> Jay L <levin...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >You need a license. You probably won't get one. Egged is a virtual
> >monopoly, and also gets a subsidy (mostly for security purposes) from
> >the government.
>
> That's what I thought, so it's basically a public utility.
>
> >> But in any case, the most important point in this whole issue, IMO, is
> >> that an ISRAELI court ruled that the segregation is illegal. Or at least
> >> improper.
> >No, the court ruled that based on the Transportation Ministry's own
> >findings, this is ILLEGAL.
>
> Why did you begin that sentence with a "no" when you're agreeing with me?
> "Yes, the court ruled that based on...."
You're right. Here's what happened. I was responding to that last
portion of your post that said "Or at least improper". Had I written
it out fully, my reply would have been, "No, it is not 'at least
improper', it is illegal".
Sorry if I caused a misunderstanding.
Jay
mm
wrote:
>On Oct 30, 12:20 pm, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:19:21 +0000 (UTC), Jay L <levin...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >You know what, Shel? I would do away with these busses. The UOs can
>> >learn to live in the 21st century, or get their own damn busses. The
>> >last episode of O soldiers waving banners of which orders they will
>> >and will not obey at their swearing in ceremony at the kotel really
>> >broke this camel's back. Those soldiers were sentenced to 20- days
>> >brig time. I would sentence their rabbis to two years in jail.
>>
>> >Jay
>>
>> Do you live in Israel, Jay? Do your children or parents? Which of
>> them lives is Israel?
>>
>> I think you don't and you should take care of your own house and leave
>> Israel alone.
>>
>
>You have no idea where my house is.
I seem to have been right, since you don't say your house is in
Israel.
> I have parents, siblings, friends,
>uncles, aunts, cousins, and a lot of business associates in Israel. I
>speak with Israeli business associates on the phone 2-3 times a day,
>and I am there fairly often.
For this purpose, I don't care about any of the rest except that your
parents live there, iiuc.
>Do you tell Matt the same thing? What do you want with Darfur? Take
Do you really think there is a simlarity between what Matt complains
about and what you do?
>care of your own house and stop worrying about those poor raped women
>in Darfur? When I was in Washington demonstrating on behalf of Soviet
>Jewry, did you counsel people to take care of their own house and stop
>bothering the Soviets with the so-called Jewish problem? Would you
Do you really think there is a similarity between freedom for Soviet
Jews and what you've been complaining about?
>suggest that people who don't live in California should not be
>concerned with the shootings in a synagogue there? Or that those who
>are not gay should not bother with gay rights, or men should not
>bother with reproduction rights for women?
Shootings, death, rape, religious and personal suppression, you think
these are similar to bus seating?
>I love Israel, I grew up there, I served in her military, I studied
>there, I support her, and I care very much when I see a country being
>destroyed because of fanaticism and 14th century idiocies. Perhaps you
>would care too, if you really cared about Israel.
Because I disagree with you on bus seating, you think I don't care
about Israel! You think bus seating and all the related things are
destroying Israel! That's fanaticism and 21st century idiocy on your
part.
What do your parents say or do about the bus seating issue in Israel?
>Jay
fla...@verizon.net
On 30-Oct-2009, mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> Or that those who
> >are not gay should not bother with gay rights, or men should not
> >bother with reproduction rights for women?
>
> Shootings, death, rape, religious and personal suppression, you think
> these are similar to bus seating?
Yea, because he keeps falsely insisting that it's
anti-female - as shown by his constant harping on
the fact that the women sit in the back. As I keep
pointing out, to be soundly ignored, if they turned
all the seats around, so the women would have to
sit in the front, would he be happy,then?
Susan
Steve Goldfarb
>Yea, because he keeps falsely insisting that it's
>anti-female - as shown by his constant harping on
>the fact that the women sit in the back. As I keep
>pointing out, to be soundly ignored, if they turned
>all the seats around, so the women would have to
>sit in the front, would he be happy,then?
Any passenger should be entitled to sit in any available seat anywhere on
the bus. Male or female, black or white, etc. What's so complicated about
that?
--s
--
sheldonlg
Apparently a lot for her. You forget that
(a) This is about Israel
(b) It has to do with criticizing O
(c) It was said by Jay.
Ergo, since Susan's above blinders are on, the reflex attack kicks in.
--
Shelly
mm
It's not complicated, but it's an assumption, and one which ignores
the views and practices of certain Jews.
We don't live in a simple world, where not being complicated is the
highest value.
>--s
Harry Weiss
> --
> Shelly
Yes she is very wrong for objecting to some seculars trying to force their
immoral hedonistic lifestyles on the religious Jews.
Jay L
>
> > >> Yea, because he keeps falsely insisting that it's
> > >> anti-female - as shown by his constant harping on
> > >> the fact that the women sit in the back. As I keep
> > >> pointing out, to be soundly ignored, if they turned
> > >> all the seats around, so the women would have to
> > >> sit in the front, would he be happy,then?
>
> > > Any passenger should be entitled to sit in any available seat anywhere on
> > > the bus. Male or female, black or white, etc. What's so complicated about
> > > that?
> > Apparently a lot for her. You forget that
> > (a) This is about Israel
> > (b) It has to do with criticizing O
> > (c) It was said by Jay.
> > Ergo, since Susan's above blinders are on, the reflex attack kicks in.
> > --
> > Shelly
>
> Yes she is very wrong for objecting to some seculars trying to force their
> immoral hedonistic lifestyles on the religious Jews.
>
Riding a bus with some modestly dressed haredi women as the haredim
have been doing since busses were invented, is now considered immoral
and hedonistic?
I never knew they were having drunken orgies on these busses on their
way to work.
Jay
sheldonlg
Why am I not surprised by such a ridiculous comment from you? Oh well,
I should consider the source.
sheldonlg
Jay, lest Meir chip in again, a "buss" is a very strong kiss. You mean
buses, not busses.
Jay L
>
I stand duly corrected. Thank you.
Jay
Matt Silberstein
soc.culture.jewish.moderated , Harry Weiss <hjw...@panix.com> in
<hcfln6$c59$1...@reader1.panix.com> wrote:
This is exactly the issue. There are those who find women and men
looking at each other, and possibly touching, so dangerous, so
immoral, so self-indulgent, that it is a danger to the very fabric of
society. And there are those who find government supported
discrimination based on gender an offense to a free society.
mm
Yes, I thought all this bussing, between anyone who is riding
together, is very Hollywood. And that's only two steps from immoral.
mm
As if there has to be ONE RULE for every single spot in the entire
country, and there can't be separate rules
You know the USA has separate states that each make rules, laws, for
their own states. Cities and towns too make separate rules, laws, for
themselves, different from other cities and towns in the same state.
Separate Homeowners Associations have different rules as do difrent
landlords and different co-op and condo associations.
All in the US.
Why should Israel of all places have to have only one rule for every
part of the country?
Why shouldn't some small part of two Israeli cities (out of many) have
separate rules that conform to the desires of what only 70 years ago
before the nazis murdered so many of them were a pretty large
percentage of the Jewish people. And even if there were never more
than the percentage they are now, they are a significant percentage.
mm
wrote:
>On Oct 29, 12:59 pm, flav...@verizon.net wrote:
>> On 29-Oct-2009, Jay L <levin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Why not have the same here? Busses for Jews only, or for African-
>> > Americans only
>>
>> Thanks for admitting that you really don't know
>> why there are sex-segregated busses in Israel.
>> or are you, like I said, going to pay for buses
>> that revserse the seats?
>>
>> Susan
>
>P-L-E-A-Z-Z !! I know precisely why there are segregated busses in
>Israel. If you spoke to as many Israelis as I do, on a daily basis,
>and read the local papers as I do, perhaps you would realize how the O
>establishment has been encroaching on Israeli society step by step by
>step, and literally choking the country. The now have inspections of
>stores to make sure Jews don't work on Shabbat (reminding people of
>how certain other groups used to ask Jews for "papers"),
That's is an offensive comparison for sure, as bad or worse than the
other one in another thread.
If it's against the law for certain businesses to run on Shabbes, then
there's nothign wrong with checking on whether they are or not. Do
you approve of flauting the law? You probably approve of flauting
Jewish law, but what about in the US where there are laws against
doing things on Sunday. If you owned and ran a store that sold many
things, would you sell jewelry and eletronics on Sunday if the law
prohibited it? Let's assume it was legal for the rest of your store
to be open. So there was already at least one clerk and one cashier.
Would you flaut the law?
> there are
>limitations on transportation, ther army is not immune from rabbinic
>encroachment, and the humrot on conversions grow worse by the week.
>Learn a littkle before you spout of. A lot of Israelis are simply
>getting fed up. I am one of them.
You don't even live in Israel. If you were you would have told me you
lived in Israel when you gave all your other connections to the
country.
How do your parents feel about this? Does any of your family ever
want to take a bus that runs on these routes?
>If the church were to try to force such measures in the US, there
>would be violence in the streets.
I doubt it, and you're just making it up. When has there been
violence in the streets over something like that in the US? Even
though there have been plenty of religious impositions here. There
would be lawsuits and legistlation. There have been lawsuits and
legislation.
And the US is a much different place with a First Amendment which
prohibts this sort of thing. Israel is a Jewish country. Did/do you
complain when Xian countries honored Sunday with special laws. Did/do
you complain when Moslem countries honor Friday, or honor Islam in
some way?
Back to your comparison at the top doesn't remind me of your vile nazi
comparison. Who are the people you claim see it that way? You,
yourself, and you? More people like you? You should talk to them and
try to convince them it's not the problem they think it is.
Instead you post such a vile comparison to us. You really should be
ashamed of yourself for comparisons you made. I'm ashamed for you, but
it's not the same thing.
>Jay
mm
<RemoveThisPref...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 19:05:06 +0000 (UTC), in
>soc.culture.jewish.moderated , "Steve Goldfarb" <s...@panix.com> in
><hccoep$li5$1...@reader1.panix.com> wrote:
>
>>In <hcck3e$j03$1...@news.eternal-september.org> fla...@verizon.net writes:
>>
>>>>
>>>> P-L-E-A-Z-Z !! I know precisely why there are segregated busses in
>>>> Israel.
>>
>>>When you compare it to racism, you prove that you don't.
>>
>>Serious question - what's the difference between holding a sincere belief
>>that whites and blacks shouldn't ride a bus together, versus holding a
>>sincere belief that men and women shouldn't ride a bus together?
>>
>>I don't see any real difference. The basis for the belief (i.e., in one
>>case it's a desire for "racial purity" or something while in the other
>>it's a religious belief) doesn't make any difference, I don't think.
>
>Given how much of racism in the American South was supported by ideas
>of the dangerous sexuality of Black Males and the fragility of White
>Women, I wonder how different these ideas are.
I presume Steve was talking aobut segregating all blacks from all
whites, not just black men from white women.
mirjam
>
> I love Israel, I grew up there, I served in her military, I studied
> there, I support her, and I care very much when I see a country being
> destroyed because of fanaticism and 14th century idiocies. Perhaps you
> would care too, if you really cared about Israel.
>
more to your liking !
mirjam
mirjam
> You need a license. You probably won't get one. Egged is a virtual
> monopoly, and also gets a subsidy (mostly for security purposes) from
> the government.
people in many lines ,, Egged lost it`s monopol .
>
> > But in any case, the most important point in this whole issue, IMO, is
> > that an ISRAELI court ruled that the segregation is illegal. Or at least
> > improper.
mirjam
Matt Silberstein
soc.culture.jewish.moderated , mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> in
<ajfme51dn4jb4t31g...@4ax.com> wrote:
Yes, it is a comment about the actions inside another country.
Something you selectively object to.
>>suggest that people who don't live in California should not be
>>concerned with the shootings in a synagogue there? Or that those who
>>are not gay should not bother with gay rights, or men should not
>>bother with reproduction rights for women?
>
>Shootings, death, rape, religious and personal suppression, you think
>these are similar to bus seating?
There are *some* similarities and *some* differences, yes.
>>I love Israel, I grew up there, I served in her military, I studied
>>there, I support her, and I care very much when I see a country being
>>destroyed because of fanaticism and 14th century idiocies. Perhaps you
>>would care too, if you really cared about Israel.
>
>Because I disagree with you on bus seating, you think I don't care
>about Israel! You think bus seating and all the related things are
>destroying Israel! That's fanaticism and 21st century idiocy on your
>part.
>
>What do your parents say or do about the bus seating issue in Israel?
--
Matt Silberstein
>On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:19:21 +0000 (UTC), Jay L <levi...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>You know what, Shel? I would do away with these busses. The UOs can
>>learn to live in the 21st century, or get their own damn busses. The
>>last episode of O soldiers waving banners of which orders they will
>>and will not obey at their swearing in ceremony at the kotel really
>>broke this camel's back. Those soldiers were sentenced to 20- days
>>brig time. I would sentence their rabbis to two years in jail.
>>
>>Jay
>
>Do you live in Israel, Jay? Do your children or parents? Which of
>them lives is Israel?
>
>I think you don't and you should take care of your own house and leave
>Israel alone.
So Jews in the Diaspora are not allowed any comment at all, just
lock-step agreement with the Israeli Right.
Matt Silberstein
soc.culture.jewish.moderated , fla...@verizon.net in
<hcf663$5d1$1...@news.eternal-september.org> wrote:
>
>On 30-Oct-2009, Jay L <levi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> What do you want with Darfur? Take
>> care of your own house and stop worrying about those poor raped women
>> in Darfur?
>
>Thank you for continuing to show your ignorance
>about why the buses are even there in the first place.
So you agree that those who don't live in Israel have to shut up about
anything going on inside Israel. How long do you think Jews in the
Diaspora are going to support Israel if you keep presenting this
choice?
Or were you just making some context destroying snips?
mm
<RemoveThisPref...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:20:17 +0000 (UTC), in
>soc.culture.jewish.moderated , mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> in
><ut3me514cumq3950v...@4ax.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:19:21 +0000 (UTC), Jay L <levi...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>You know what, Shel? I would do away with these busses. The UOs can
>>>learn to live in the 21st century, or get their own damn busses. The
>>>last episode of O soldiers waving banners of which orders they will
>>>and will not obey at their swearing in ceremony at the kotel really
>>>broke this camel's back. Those soldiers were sentenced to 20- days
>>>brig time. I would sentence their rabbis to two years in jail.
>>>
>>>Jay
>>
>>Do you live in Israel, Jay? Do your children or parents? Which of
>>them lives is Israel?
>>
>>I think you don't and you should take care of your own house and leave
>>Israel alone.
>
>So Jews in the Diaspora are not allowed any comment at all, just
>lock-step agreement with the Israeli Right.
First off, why would not commenting at all be lock-step agreement with
the Israeli Right? Why wouldn't it be lock-step agreement with the
Israeli Left, or Israeli Center. Why would it be agreement or
disagreement with anyone?
A large part of the problem with Jay's particular post was that he
didn't just express an opinion on sexual segregation in a few buses,
but that he used profaanity and wanted to send their rabbis to jail.
Jay is vey proficient at being nasty. He adds no light to many
threads, only heat.
Many other posts by him and ohter people have the same or diffferent
problems.
I'll be back in two days. We can discuss this more reasonably then.
Fattush
> Today's Ma'ariv editorial:
>
> Ma'ariv calls on Transportation Minister Yisrael Katz to accept the
> recommendations of a committee he appointed and bar the Egged and Dan
> bus companies from operating lines to and from ultra-orthodox areas in
> which women are obliged to sit at the back of the bus. �If the
> Minister does not, the author believes, "he will lose more of whatever
> prestige as he has left."
>
> Jay
Why not have frequent buses that pick up women only? Or have the
women sitting in the front with female bus drivers? Therefore if an
Orthodox man does not want to get on such a bus or sit on such a bus,
he can just stand in the bus stop and wait and wait and wait for a bus
that he likes.
I don't mean to disrespect other people's religious beliefs, but I
find this segregation of the sexes on buses, in shules, in schools,
and in daily life to be offensive and unenllightened.
Fattush
> Perhaps there should not be a front/back division but a side/side
> division. �This would make it easier for pregnant and older women
> to get on and off the front of the bus, unless there is a door
> with a farebox in the middle or rear. �Lastly, what about
> handicapped passengers? �Are there what in the USA are called
> "kneeling" buses and buses with chair lifts? �How would a
> handicapped woman run a gantlet to the back of the bus? �She
> can't. �Hence, if the Israelis want to make a de facto mechitza
> on a bus, then side to side works better. �Moreover, it would
> also allow for female bus drivers (can't drive from the back, no
> matter how some spouses try).
>
> chsw
Here in the US spouses drive from the backseat all the time!
(that's a joke)
mm
One can always find some similarity. "They were both sentences with
verbs in the indicative."
Are you saying that YOU think sex-segregated buses on a few routes in
Israel is a problem of similar nature, similar severity, to what has
been happening in Darfur?
>>>care of your own house and stop worrying about those poor raped women
>>>in Darfur? When I was in Washington demonstrating on behalf of Soviet
>>>Jewry, did you counsel people to take care of their own house and stop
>>>bothering the Soviets with the so-called Jewish problem? Would you
>>
>>Do you really think there is a similarity between freedom for Soviet
>>Jews and what you've been complaining about?
>
>Yes, it is a comment about the actions inside another country.
>Something you selectively object to.
I object to serious problems and I don't object to small problems that
have no solution, because one choice is in conformance with the
believes of a group of observant Jews and other, less observant Jews
don't like that. What are your standards?
>>>suggest that people who don't live in California should not be
>>>concerned with the shootings in a synagogue there? Or that those who
>>>are not gay should not bother with gay rights, or men should not
>>>bother with reproduction rights for women?
>>
>>Shootings, death, rape, religious and personal suppression, you think
>>these are similar to bus seating?
>
>There are *some* similarities and *some* differences, yes.
Yes, the similarity is that they are all objected to. Do YOU make
comparisons between little things like sex-segregated buses on some
routes in Israel and shootings, death (in Darfur and elsewhere), rape
(in Darfur and elsewhere), and confinement within the Soviet Union
while ones religious, personal, and Jewish national actions are
suppressed?
>>>I love Israel, I grew up there, I served in her military, I studied
>>>there, I support her, and I care very much when I see a country being
>>>destroyed because of fanaticism and 14th century idiocies. Perhaps you
>>>would care too, if you really cared about Israel.
>>
>>Because I disagree with you on bus seating, you think I don't care
>>about Israel! You think bus seating and all the related things are
>>destroying Israel! That's fanaticism and 21st century idiocy on your
>>part.
>>
>>What do your parents say or do about the bus seating issue in Israel?
--
Meir
mm
wrote:
>I object to serious problems and I don't object to small problems that
>have no solution, because one choice is in conformance with the
>believes of a group of observant Jews and other, less observant Jews
>don't like that.
I mean, they don't like that choice.
>What are your standards?
Jay L
> On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 17:29:23 +0000 (UTC), Jay L <levin...@gmail.com>
It is not against the law to open restaurants and eateries in Israel
on shabbat. Two years ago, when the Ministry of Interior again came
into religious hands, in its religious zeal, it started enforcing a
rule (ignored until then) which did not permit the employment of Jews.
So their Druze inspectors (IGod forbid they should emply Jewish
inspectors on shabbat. let's use shabbes goyim) started inspecting
eateries and asking for "papers", the Israeli ID which has a
"religion" clause in it. Jews who worked there on shabbat were fined.
I did not make that vile comparison -- the Israeli press did, and
public pressure forced them to stop this horrible practice to some
extent. It still continues sporadically, when the ayatollahs think
they'll get away with it. The Israeli public includes people who still
remember when other people asked for their "papers" and the comparison
was intolerable. So blame the democratic press, not me. I'm sure the
religious press did not cry out about it.
> > there are
> >limitations on transportation, ther army is not immune from rabbinic
> >encroachment, and the humrot on conversions grow worse by the week.
> >Learn a littkle before you spout of. A lot of Israelis are simply
> >getting fed up. I am one of them.
>
> You don't even live in Israel.
I don't live France, yet I object to French anti-semitic violence. I
also object to international conferences which blame Zionism or
Judaism for every ill in the world. I also objected to apartheid, and
supported bans on South African trade, although I have never set foot
in South Africa. I also object to blue laws here in the US, although
they are for the most part commercial, and not religious.
>
> How do your parents feel about this? Does any of your family ever
> want to take a bus that runs on these routes?
When my family travels on a bus, they're fine with a mixed crowd. They
can actually ride a bus with women in it without getting sexually
aroused and perhaps committing a sex crime. They strenuously object to
O attempts in Israel to regulate their secular neighborhood.
>
> >If the church were to try to force such measures in the US, there
> >would be violence in the streets.
>
> I doubt it, and you're just making it up. When has there been
> violence in the streets over something like that in the US? Even
> though there have been plenty of religious impositions here. There
> would be lawsuits and legistlation. There have been lawsuits and
> legislation.
Yes, some lawyers sure made a ton of money filing lawsuits during the
Salem witchhunts.
>
> And the US is a much different place with a First Amendment which
> prohibts this sort of thing. Israel is a Jewish country. Did/do you
> complain when Xian countries honored Sunday with special laws. Did/do
> you complain when Moslem countries honor Friday, or honor Islam in
> some way?
>
> Back to your comparison at the top doesn't remind me of your vile nazi
> comparison. Who are the people you claim see it that way? You,
> yourself, and you? More people like you? You should talk to them and
> try to convince them it's not the problem they think it is.
>
> Instead you post such a vile comparison to us. You really should be
> ashamed of yourself for comparisons you made.
Learn the facts. You can be ashamed of yourself for supporting
religious coercion. Don't worry about me.
Jay
Abe Kohen
psak. BTW, ***Naomi Ragen*** is one of the fiercest critics of segregated
buses.
But your absolute hatred of all things Orthodox displays a blindness to the
wide spectrum of O views. Since you and I were both raised O, and now
neither one of us is, I would expect you to know that not every O wants to
impose restrictive rules on you.
As mentioned in another post, I served 3 years in the IDF but not one day
day of reserve duty (miluim). On one of my trips to Israel, when I was as
anti-religious then as you are now, I decided to volunteer for reserve duty.
The only task offered was to evacuate Yamit. I declined. Not out of
religious conviction, but out of moral conviction. The IDF is not the German
army. Soldiers must obey their conscience. If Aviv Gefen can follow his
convictions, why would you expect O soldiers to carry out orders which in
the US military would be illegal, i.e, police actions by the military -
Posse Comitatus Act - US Code: Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 67, Section 1385?
Shavua Tov,
Abe
"Jay L" <levi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:751de738-e757-4458...@p19g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 29, 11:29 am, sheldonlg <sheldo...@giganews.com> wrote:
> Jay L wrote:
> > Today's Ma'ariv editorial:
>
> > Ma'ariv calls on Transportation Minister Yisrael Katz to accept the
> > recommendations of a committee he appointed and bar the Egged and Dan
> > bus companies from operating lines to and from ultra-orthodox areas in
> > which women are obliged to sit at the back of the bus. If the
> > Minister does not, the author believes, "he will lose more of whatever
> > prestige as he has left."
>
> > Jay
>
> My opinion -- If the bus companies ensure that there is a regular bus
> within 1 minute of each of the segregated buses, then I don't see a
> problem with it as it then simply becomes an extra option for those that
> want it. It is like when there were separate smoking rooms in
> restaurants for those that wanted to smoke at dinner. So long as the
> rest of the people are accommodated with no added inconvenience, then
> having something for a special group is OK.
>
> Of course, if having those buses means a decrease in general service, or
> not supplying enough service to meet the demand of the general public,
> then it is not OK (IMO).
Why not have the same here? Busses for Jews only, or for African-
Americans only, provided a "regular" bus shows up within a minute, and
the Jew or African-American can choose which bus to get on. Hey, the
Moslems would love it -- the more devout among them don't permit wives
and daughters to go out alone. This way the Moslem women would have
their own "Moslem women" bus.
Abe Kohen
"Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote in message
news:hccu0v$gvv$2...@harrier.steinthal.us...
> chsw <chsw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> This would make it easier for pregnant and older women
>> to get on and off the front of the bus, unless there is a door
>
> Women enter in the rear.
I am not going to touch that one with a ten foot pole!
> Chareidim being as they are, money is simply
> passed forward. Trust is taken for granted.
Haredim are as honest as the rest of the population. Trust taken for granted
<=> Madoff.
Shavua Tov,
Abe
Abe Kohen
"Harry Weiss" <hjw...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:hcf7no$ivc$2...@reader1.panix.com...
> Because of the extreme high usage, the segregated busses are highly
> profitable and Egged in putting all pressure to stop the Charedim from
> taking the business away from them.
And if there were no "Mehadrin" buses would ridership go down? Where would
they take their business to? To buy a car, means the husbands would have to
WORK!
Imagine a woman who is working hard for her family (since her husband isn't)
and SHE has to go sit in the back? Puh-leeze!
Shavua Tov,
Abe
Abe Kohen
These religious Jews don't hold from Reb Moshe Feinstein?
Shavua Tov,
Abe
Abe Kohen
there on Sundays.
I no longer have a car, so it has no impact on me, as I haven't shopped in
Bergen County in a VERY long time.
You think you can get your legislators to repeal those laws as they have in
other parts of the US, especially since I can get much better deals shopping
on the internet?
Shavua Tov,
Abe
"Jay L" <levi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:972a3251-7c1e-4d2f...@e34g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
mm
wrote:
>On Oct 31, 7:55 pm, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
What do you mean you did not! You did it in your previous post. You
both made the comparison.
I'd probably despise their comparison too, but I'd have to see it in
context.
>public pressure forced them to stop this horrible practice to some
>extent. It still continues sporadically, when the ayatollahs think
More crapp from you. You surely don't expect to sway anyone to your
pov, do you? You just like to vent your spleen here, right?
>they'll get away with it. The Israeli public includes people who still
>remember when other people asked for their "papers" and the comparison
>was intolerable. So blame the democratic press, not me.
How do you think you're not just as responsible as [some part of] the
press is?
> I'm sure the
>religious press did not cry out about it.
>
>
>> > there are
>> >limitations on transportation, ther army is not immune from rabbinic
>> >encroachment, and the humrot on conversions grow worse by the week.
>> >Learn a littkle before you spout of. A lot of Israelis are simply
>> >getting fed up. I am one of them.
>>
>> You don't even live in Israel.
>
>I don't live France, yet I object to French anti-semitic violence. I
And again, you think is similarity between anti-semitic violence and
having sex-segregated seating on some buslines. Your head is on
crooked.
>also object to international conferences which blame Zionism or
>Judaism for every ill in the world. I also objected to apartheid, and
>supported bans on South African trade, although I have never set foot
>in South Africa.
What affinity did you claim, what sympathy did you owe to the white
minority in South Africa. What affinity do you claim, what sympathy
do you owe to the antisemitses at international conferences?
I would think, none.
Is your position that you have no affinity with or sympathy with the
Jews who want sex-segregated buses on some routes? I read here
tonight that your parents are Orthodox.
If you have affinity or sympathy with the Hassidic Jews you are
criticing, and insutlting, here, then you can see that your examples
of apartheid and antisemitic international conferences are not good
examples. They're different from this case where the side you oppose
is made up entirely of Jews.
If otoh you have no affinity or sympathy with any group of Jews**
that's a terrble thing, and it further reduces the importance to me of
what you say.
**(with the exception perhaps of Jewish antisemites, but even them I
grieve for.)
> I also object to blue laws here in the US, although
>they are for the most part commercial, and not religious.
Their origin is religious. But I didn't ask if you objected to them.
We all object to them in a country that has a first amendment. I
asked you if you would flout them? That's one question. If you
wouldn't get caught or punished, would you flout them? That's a
second one.
>
>>
>> How do your parents feel about this? Does any of your family ever
>> want to take a bus that runs on these routes?
>
>
>When my family travels on a bus, they're fine with a mixed crowd. They
>can actually ride a bus with women in it without getting sexually
>aroused and perhaps committing a sex crime. They strenuously object to
>O attempts in Israel to regulate their secular neighborhood.
"This" didn't refer to regulating "their secular neighborhood". It
referred to have sex-segregated buses on some routes in Israel, on the
routes where they actually have them. How do you parents feel about
"this"?
Your Orthodox parents live in a secular neighborhood?
>> >If the church were to try to force such measures in the US, there
-------------------------------------------
>> >would be violence in the streets.
>>
>> I doubt it, and you're just making it up. When has there been
>> violence in the streets over something like that in the US? Even
>> though there have been plenty of religious impositions here. There
>> would be lawsuits and legistlation. There have been lawsuits and
>> legislation.
>
>
>Yes, some lawyers sure made a ton of money filing lawsuits during the
>Salem witchhunts.
So you're going all the way back to Salem. Pardon me if I didn't get
that since the witchhunts ended in the 1690's before there was a US.
This isn't just a chronlogoical thing. The people changed in the 80
or 90 years before they were independent, and changed more then and
when they made their own laws.
But your claim was about the US, not the colonies. So like I said,
When has there been violence in the streets over something like that
in the US?
>> And the US is a much different place with a First Amendment which
>> prohibts this sort of thing. Israel is a Jewish country. Did/do you
>> complain when Xian countries honored Sunday with special laws. Did/do
>> you complain when Moslem countries honor Friday, or honor Islam in
>> some way?
>>
>> Back to your comparison at the top doesn't remind me of your vile nazi
>> comparison. Who are the people you claim see it that way? You,
>> yourself, and you? More people like you? You should talk to them and
>> try to convince them it's not the problem they think it is.
>>
>> Instead you post such a vile comparison to us. You really should be
>> ashamed of yourself for comparisons you made.
>
>
>Learn the facts. You can be ashamed of yourself for supporting
>religious coercion. Don't worry about me.
You've had the chance to give me facts and nothing you've said changes
anything.
But what I'm ashamed of is not your position on sex-segregated buses,
but your use of comparisons of religious Jews with nazis, and with
ayatollas. WRT the first, if some Israeli newspaper did the same
thing, it makes no difference. We're in a different forum and you
could have cited that Israeli paper and quoted it, but you didn't.
You said it from your own mouth, and you're fully responsible, and
your words are vile.
The newspaper wouldn't have even come up if I hadn't complained about
what you said.
You should discuss your attitude with Abe, in the group and/or by
email. He says he went through the same stage you are going through
now. Maybe if you talk with him, you can either shorten this stage,
or better yet, keep yourself from doing things during it that you'll
be ashamed of later.
I'm going away for two days. Not sure what time Monday I'll be back.
mm
<ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote:
>Your Bergen County blue laws were enacted to keep us NYC Jews from shopping
>there on Sundays.
Why would Bergen County want to do that. Don't they want the
business? Who in Bergen County didn't want Jews to shop there on
Sunday? What about the non-Jews? Didn't at least some of them shop
there on Sundays. After church? :)
>I no longer have a car, so it has no impact on me, as I haven't shopped in
>Bergen County in a VERY long time.
>
>You think you can get your legislators to repeal those laws as they have in
>other parts of the US, especially since I can get much better deals shopping
>on the internet?
I need a new thermostat for my fridge. One store here said about 50
dollars but couldnt' say for sure because they were doing inventory.
Maybe that was the price a few years ago but she can't keep track of
every price.
The other store said 74 dollars. The internet wants 45 to 49 dollars
plus 6 to 9 dollars shipping, but no sales tax. They also want a week
for shipping, instead of one day from the warehouse.
>Shavua Tov,
>Abe
>
>
>
>"Jay L" <levi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:972a3251-7c1e-4d2f...@e34g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
>in South Africa. I also object to blue laws here in the US, although
>they are for the most part commercial, and not religious.
>
--
Harry Weiss
> Shavua Tov,
> Abe
there would be more independant charedi bus companies
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
mirjam
you end your letter with the impressive sentence ...learn the facts...
thus let`s strat with correcting some facts ,
> It is not against the law to open restaurants and eateries in Israel
> on shabbat.
Some Cities forbid opening Any business on Shabat and Holidays.
we have a rule that Shabat is a Rest Day, When i was in Boston 20+
years there were rules who may or may not work on Sunday ,,,, When i
viited my Grandparents City in Holland 10 years ago All Business but
1 icecream parlour were closed on Sunday.
>Two years ago, when the Ministry of Interior again came
> into religious hands, in its religious zeal, it started enforcing a
> rule (ignored until then) which did not permit the employment of Jews.
> So their Druze inspectors (IGod forbid they should emply Jewish
> inspectors on shabbat. let's use shabbes goyim)
If you believe that Jews should not work on Shabat , you can`t sent
Jews to work.
> "papers", the Israeli ID which has a
> "religion" clause in it.
The ID has no religion clause in it !!! it has a Nationality clause .
> I did not make that vile comparison -- the Israeli press did, and
> public pressure forced them to stop this horrible practice to some
> extent.
Well most press people are secular , But when you talk with most
people you will hear that most secular people think this should be
left to personal choices.
Haifa has a `Staus Quo ` Thus Busses run on Shabat on certain lines .
Nobody travels near the Main Synagogue in Hertzel Street , which isn`t
barred or closed , there is only a sign that says that one should
travel there on Shabat ,, and all respect it .
> It still continues sporadically, when the ayatollahs think
> they'll get away with it. The Israeli public includes people who still
> remember when other people asked for their "papers" and the comparison
> was intolerable. So blame the democratic press, not me. I'm sure the
> religious press did not cry out about it.
Strangely enough i don`t recall too many comparisons to such 'papers
searches"
And i think that you would be surprised to know that looking into
people`s papers has become quite Common in many other countries due to
Terror and illigal migration,
Only a month ago the French did a Mass upheavel in a place near the
Tunnel that leads to UK , and they deported and arrested many
illegals ,,,,but it is ok when it happens in Europe.
> I don't live France, yet I object to French anti-semitic violence.
And YOU compare the Anti Semitic violence to what happens in Isreal
between various groups ?
I
> also object to international conferences which blame Zionism or
> Judaism for every ill in the world. I also objected to apartheid, and
> supported bans on South African trade, although I have never set foot
> in South Africa. I also object to blue laws here in the US, although
> they are for the most part commercial, and not religious.
So to you Every thing is the same kind problem ?
>
> When my family travels on a bus, they're fine with a mixed crowd. They
> can actually ride a bus with women in it without getting sexually
> aroused and perhaps committing a sex crime. They strenuously object to
> O attempts in Israel to regulate their secular neighborhood.
Many sevular people here Don`t object to Orthodox people keeping
strict rules IN THEIR OWN neighbourhoods , but not in More PUBLIC
places ,,
>
> > >If the church were to try to force such measures in the US, there
> > >would be violence in the streets.
Hum? i remember place that forbade work on Sunday !!!
mirjam
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
big snip
> You know what, Shel? I would do away with these busses. The UOs can
> learn to live in the 21st century, or get their own damn busses.
No they can't. They asked for it many times, but the existing bus
company, Egged, doesn't want to give up its monopoly.
--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
sheldonlg
> Your Bergen County blue laws were enacted to keep us NYC Jews from shopping
> there on Sundays.
>
> I no longer have a car, so it has no impact on me, as I haven't shopped in
> Bergen County in a VERY long time.
>
> You think you can get your legislators to repeal those laws as they have in
> other parts of the US, especially since I can get much better deals shopping
> on the internet?
>
> Shavua Tov,
> Abe
When Massachusetts had Blue Laws(*), there were stores that opened on
Sunday and closed on Saturday (owned by Jews). There was no way to stop
them from doing so as it would have been a clear violation of the
constitution and the state would have lost at every round in court. I
knew one of the owners and he was quite happy with that arrangement
because it brought in a lot of business. When they repealed the Blue
Laws, his business suffered greatly.
(*) Blue Laws is the term in the US for prohibiting stores from opening
on Sunday.
sheldonlg
> Jay
> you end your letter with the impressive sentence ...learn the facts...
> thus let`s strat with correcting some facts ,
>
>> It is not against the law to open restaurants and eateries in Israel
>> on shabbat.
> Some Cities forbid opening Any business on Shabat and Holidays.
> we have a rule that Shabat is a Rest Day, When i was in Boston 20+
> years there were rules who may or may not work on Sunday ,,,, When i
There were never any such rules in Boston from at least 1967 when I
moved there. The Blue Laws applied to STORES, not people, and they were
done away with some thirty years ago.
> viited my Grandparents City in Holland 10 years ago All Business but
> 1 icecream parlour were closed on Sunday.
Holland may not have a first amendment type law.
>
>> Two years ago, when the Ministry of Interior again came
>> into religious hands, in its religious zeal, it started enforcing a
>> rule (ignored until then) which did not permit the employment of Jews.
>> So their Druze inspectors (IGod forbid they should emply Jewish
>> inspectors on shabbat. let's use shabbes goyim)
> If you believe that Jews should not work on Shabat , you can`t sent
> Jews to work.
>
>> "papers", the Israeli ID which has a
>> "religion" clause in it.
> The ID has no religion clause in it !!! it has a Nationality clause .
.....and what does it say? Does it say "Jewish" for a Jew or does it say
"Israeli". What does it say for an arab who is a citizen of Israel? (I
don't know these answers so I am asking the question, but from the
context I deduce that it says Jewish for Jewish citizens. If so, then
Jay's point still stands).
>
>
>> I did not make that vile comparison -- the Israeli press did, and
>> public pressure forced them to stop this horrible practice to some
>> extent.
> Well most press people are secular , But when you talk with most
> people you will hear that most secular people think this should be
> left to personal choices.
> Haifa has a `Staus Quo ` Thus Busses run on Shabat on certain lines .
> Nobody travels near the Main Synagogue in Hertzel Street , which isn`t
> barred or closed , there is only a sign that says that one should
> travel there on Shabat ,, and all respect it .
>
>> It still continues sporadically, when the ayatollahs think
>> they'll get away with it. The Israeli public includes people who still
>> remember when other people asked for their "papers" and the comparison
>> was intolerable. So blame the democratic press, not me. I'm sure the
>> religious press did not cry out about it.
> Strangely enough i don`t recall too many comparisons to such 'papers
> searches"
> And i think that you would be surprised to know that looking into
> people`s papers has become quite Common in many other countries due to
> Terror and illigal migration,
Not in the US. The only "papers" that people carry with them is a
driver's license -- if they drive, or credit cards if they have them.
No one is required to have "papers" with them. Now if you want to cross
the border, that is another story.
--
Shelly
mirjam
> There are *no various `private` mostly Local bus companies who serve
> people in many lines ,, Egged lost it`s monopol .
>
Sorry it should have been There are *NOW Various ........
Abe Kohen
news:hcfg47$uci$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> On 30-Oct-2009, mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>> Or that those who
>> >are not gay should not bother with gay rights, or men should not
>> >bother with reproduction rights for women?
>>
>> Shootings, death, rape, religious and personal suppression, you think
>> these are similar to bus seating?
>
> anti-female - as shown by his constant harping on
> the fact that the women sit in the back. As I keep
> pointing out, to be soundly ignored, if they turned
> all the seats around, so the women would have to
> sit in the front, would he be happy,then?
It is Naomi Ragen who says - and I fully concur - that it is anti-woman.
How come they don't insist on "Mehadrin" airplanes?
Drove real fast to Pierre Trudeau Airport yesterday from a conference near
Montreal. Paid to move my flight up to get home faster lichvod my wife (I'm
not O, although I like to be in sinnergogue Friday night). A couple of
hasidic garbed men sat in the BACK! Couldn't get an aisle seat. This nice
couple from Winnipeg split aisles. As a courtesy I offered to switch so they
could sit together, but they preferred split asiles. Man was flying to NYC
for marathon. Woman to see Broadway show. Very nice couple. Sat next to the
wife. Had nice conversation with wife. Wished husband luck in marathon. No
one was worse off for not having segregated seating.
Shavua Tov,
Abe
Micha Berger
> Your Bergen County blue laws were enacted to keep us NYC Jews from shopping
> there on Sundays.
I thought the reason is far less sinister. After all, how many Sabbath
observant NY-ers would they keep away compared to their total Sunday
business?
Simply, a county overrun with malls passed a law to save the mom-and-pop
shop who couldn't staff for a 7 day week and still have to compete.
> I no longer have a car, so it has no impact on me, as I haven't shopped in
> Bergen County in a VERY long time.
I, OTOH, live 1/2 mile away from that county, 3 of my children are at
a school there -- 2 students and a teacher.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger It's never too late
mi...@aishdas.org to become the person
http://www.aishdas.org you might have been.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - George Elliot
Micha Berger
>> Yes she is very wrong for objecting to some seculars trying to force their
>> immoral hedonistic lifestyles on the religious Jews.
> These religious Jews don't hold from Reb Moshe Feinstein?
Correct, they have their own rabbis. Even in the US, Rav Moshe's opinions
are increasingly neglected in favor of newer (and more stringent) names.
Given that even the rabbis in question do not see themselves as his equal,
the whole thing is ironic.
I think what's happening is that as general society gets further and
further from O norms -- just turn on a TV and see what passes for a
"family sitcom" -- the O world is tending toward higher and higher walls
between us and that society.
I learned recently that TV Land, a cable network aimed at giving
more wholesome fair from the past, decided that "Threes Company"
qualified. Anyone remember the big hullaballoo when that weekly collection
of sexual double-entendre went on the air? Now, it's tame compared to
the norm.
That said, the ubiquity and unavoidability of the internet /should/ teach
my fellow O Jews that no wall will ever be high enough. That instead of
relying on a fortress for protection, we need to raise stronger Jews.
Then again, Mr Elliot's thought (below) gives me hope.
Fattush
> On 29-Oct-2009, Jay L <levin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 29, 12:59�pm, flav...@verizon.net wrote:
> > > On 29-Oct-2009, Jay L <levin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Why not have the same here? �Busses for Jews only, or for African-
> > > > Americans only
>
> > > Thanks for admitting that you really don't know
> > > why there are sex-segregated busses in Israel.
> > > or are you, like I said, going to pay for buses
> > > that revserse the seats?
>
> > > Susan
>
> > P-L-E-A-Z-Z !! �I know precisely why there are segregated busses in
> > Israel.
>
>
> > �If you spoke to as many Israelis as I do, on a �daily basis,
> > and read the local papers as I do, perhaps you would realize how the O
> > establishment has been encroaching on Israeli society step by step by
> > step, and literally choking the country. T
>
> I guess you know more than they, right?
>
> Oh, & even if you are right about "literally choking the country",
> you have yet to rpove that it's discrimination.
>
> > The now have inspections of
> > stores to make sure Jews don't work on Shabbat (reminding people of
> > limitations on transportation, ther army is not immune from rabbinic
> > encroachment, and the humrot on conversions grow worse by the week.
>
> It has nothing to do with your pretense that these buses
> have anything to do with bigotry towards women.
Perhaps Orthodox Jews don't see it as bigotry towards women, but in my
opinion, many Jews who are Americanized/securalized would see it as
bigotry.
A friend of mine reported an experience where she was invited to
attend services at a Chasidic shule. She had never been there before
and was not experienced with ultra Orthodox services. To her surprise,
the woman were forced to sit all the way in the back, behind a wall.
The wall had some little slit in it so the women could peak out if
they tried extra hard. The men sat up front and the services were
conducted entirely by men. My friend could hardly see what was going
on and certainly did not feel like a participant or like someone who
was welcome. She was very uncomfortable and not happy.
Frankly, in my opinion, if an ultra Orthodox shule is going to be set
up like that, why have a section for women at all? What woman in her
right mind would even want to "attend" such services? Let's face
it . . . the women were treated as if they were unwelcome distractions
at best.
Abe Kohen
>
> Then again, Mr Elliot's thought (below) gives me hope.
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
> --
> Micha Berger It's never too late
> mi...@aishdas.org to become the person
> http://www.aishdas.org you might have been.
> Fax: (270) 514-1507 - George Elliot
No Mr. Eliot. She was Mary Anne (Mary Ann, Marian) Evans, who "used a male
pen name, she said, to ensure that her works were taken seriously."
Just another woman overcoming segregation and discrimination.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Eliot
The actual quote is: "It's never too late to be who you might have been."
http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/31649.html
Best,
Abe
Jay L
> On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 03:43:44 +0000 (UTC), Jay L <levin...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
(snip)>
>
>
> Your Orthodox parents live in a secular neighborhood?
My parents are not now, not have they ever been, Orthodox. I went to
an Orthodox school, part of the time, and they respected Jewish norms,
but they were never O.
Jay
(snip)
Jay L
In Bergen County, NJ, blue laws still exist because Paramus wants to
protect its malls and does not want them open on Sundays (traffic,
pollution, noise, etc.). So there are county rules (no electronics,
clothing, etc.) and then each town makes up the rest of the rules for
its own needs. In some cities, you can open some stores, but in others
(Ridgewood, Paramus) there are tougher restrictions.
Paramus knows well that in surrounding counties and 10 minutes away in
NY everything is open. Yet every 5 years they defeat the referendum
which calls for doing away with the blue laws. If the blue laws were
to be repealed, the larget stores would open satellites in surrounding
towns and Paramus would lose its edge.
Jay
Jay L
It says Jewish.
Jay
Micha Berger
>> Chareidim being as they are, money is simply
>> passed forward. Trust is taken for granted.
> Haredim are as honest as the rest of the population. Trust taken for granted
> <=> Madoff.
As three boys in Japan are learning the hard way -- and they too were
willing to smuggle ancient manuscripts into the country, they just didn't
know they were also smuggling drugs. And didn't someone set up a table
on Rechov Mei'ah She'arim just two weeks after Madoff and successfully
market a fake investment? He didn't actually take money; it was just
to show how hopelessly naive the chareidi man in the street is when it
comes to these matters. The guy looks "frum", has glossy paperwork and
all the legalese to look official, they believe him.
That said, in how many other communities could the bus driver rely on
people to pass money forward? This isn't some recent experiment. It has
been going on for decades, and clearly Egged is content with the
results.
They have their bad apples, as does everyone. But that doesn't make the
community as a whole as dishonest as the rest of the population. If
anything, their naivite when it comes to other people who appear to be
one of them survives *because* being burnt by it is so rare.
cindys
> Abe Kohen <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote:
> >> Yes she is very wrong for objecting to some seculars trying to force their
> >> immoral hedonistic lifestyles on the religious Jews.
> > These religious Jews don't hold from Reb Moshe Feinstein?
>
> Correct, they have their own rabbis. Even in the US, Rav Moshe's opinions
> are increasingly neglected in favor of newer (and more stringent) names.
> Given that even the rabbis in question do not see themselves as his equal,
> the whole thing is ironic.
>
> I think what's happening is that as general society gets further and
> further from O norms -- just turn on a TV and see what passes for a
> "family sitcom" -- the O world is tending toward higher and higher walls
> between us and that society.
>
> I learned recently that TV Land, a cable network aimed at giving
> more wholesome fair from the past, decided that "Threes Company"
> qualified. Anyone remember the big hullaballoo when that weekly collection
> of sexual double-entendre went on the air? Now, it's tame compared to
> the norm.
>
> That said, the ubiquity and unavoidability of the internet /should/ teach
> my fellow O Jews that no wall will ever be high enough. That instead of
> relying on a fortress for protection, we need to raise stronger Jews.
Aside from any other issues that have come up with my younger son,
(and without making any kind of a value judgment on the relative pros
and cons of being Orthodox Jewish versus secular), once my younger son
decided not to convert to Judaism, he was able to become secular in a
heartbeat. I attribute much of this to the fact that he always had
access to the TV set and the Internet. Many secular Jews and/or non-
Jews mistakenly believe that the argument against TV/internet is
simply a matter of O Jews not wanting their children exposed to porn
(for example). I don't think it's that simple. The issue is exposure
to the secular value system.
When I went to "Meet the Teachers" night at the public school for my
younger son, the Spanish teacher was very eager to share with the
parents that they were going to be so surprised to see their children
dancing the Salsa with members of the opposite sex (as if this were
inherently a positive thing). The health teacher reassured the parents
that she preaches abstinence, but it apparently never entered her mind
to suggest to the children that perhaps casual dating isn't
appropriate for a 13-year-old. When I have suggested to other people
that perhaps school dances aren't appropriate for 11- to 13-year-old
children, I am quickly reassured that there are plenty of chaperones.
The chaperones are not the point! The point is that the very fact that
there is a school dance at all (for 11- to 13-year-olds) gives a nod
of approval to the idea of casual dating for young children. If I had
my way, my younger son would not date at all until after high school.
It's a time pit and distracts from schoolwork. It leads to broken
hearts and physical relationships before kids are ready. From my
personal perspective, I can't see where it serves any useful purpose
at all.
Unfortunately, now that my son is in public school, I can't control
what other people are feeding him, and the result is that I have had
to adapt to a large degree, and many compromises have already been
made. My point is that there is a value system that is inherent in the
secular world, which is blasted from the TV with sitcoms like "Saved
By the Bell," and also promoted at school by the teachers and
administration. As recently as two months ago, if we were watching a
DVD together and a couple kissed, my son would cover his eyes and warn
me that there was something "inappropriate" on the screen. I can't
imagine ever hearing him say that again.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
chsw
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'll modify it. How about if they pay a reasonable leasing fee and
>>>> subsidize whatever fares don't match to cover the cost of drivwrs, gas,
>>>> and maintainers? Essentially, it would be a charter arrangement.
>>> Depends on your view of the proper role of government, I think.
>>>
>>> One approach would be to say OK, if 51% of the bus riders want segregated
>>> buses (or smoking buses, or black-free buses, or topless buses, or
>>> whatever else) then they should be allowed to have them.
>>>
>>> The opposite approach would be to say if even one person wanted to ride on
>>> a non-segregated bus, and that forcing that one person (or even some
>>> hypothetical person) to ride the segregated bus violates his or her
>>> rights, then it's the government's duty to ensure non-segregated buses.
>>>
>>> The conflict in rights is "I have a right to tell you where to sit" versus
>>> "I have a right to sit wherever I want," in my view while the former
>>> doesn't necessarily have zero weight, it's definitely trumped by the
>>> latter.
>>>
>>> I would say that the bus riders who desire segregation are free to charter
>>> their own buses and do what they like, though. (there is an argument that
>>> could be made that they shouldn't be allowed to do it even on their own
>>> buses, but I don't think I'd support that argument)
>>>
>>> --s
>
>
>> Good point, Steve. Privatize the bus system and the problem
>> disappears from public policy discussion and is simply handled by
>> competing segged and non-segged bus systems.
>
>
> Egged is not run by the Government. It is a cooperative owned by the
> drivers.
>
Has the government granted it a monopoly status, making it like a
regulated municipal utility? If so, then there is very little
that people can do except to try to break the monopoly. Also,
such a set-up might mean that any prospective driver either has
to wait until someone retires, pay a kickback, or both.
chsw
>> chsw
>
chsw
If Egged has no monopoly, then one group or the other should
start its own bus line and be done with it.
chsw
sheldonlg
....then mirjam's objection is pointless.
cindys
I haven't participated on SCJM in a long time, and I wasn't going to
respond here again, but I feel compelled since this is the second time
you've used this thread about the buses to sling mud at Orthodox
Jewish shuls (and earlier at Orthodox schools).
The Orthodox Jews (men and women) who pay the tuition to send their
children to these sex-segregated schools and who are dues-paying
members of these sex-segregated shuls want these institutions to be
sex-segregated. If people whose children are not attending these
schools and who are not members of these shuls find the sex-
segregation to be offensive, that's just too bad. It's a shame that
your friend felt uncomfortable, but she's not a member of that shul is
she? When I go to a Conservative synagogue, I feel uncomfortable, but
I don't start bitching that they outta have separate seating to
accommodate my sensibilities.
I'm not sure why there needs to be this ongoing footstamping that the
Orthodox Jews should somehow feel compelled to conform to the secular
worldview of the non-Orthodox Jews who feel uncomfortable with sex-
segregated shuls and schools but who are not the ones paying dues or
tuition at Orthodox shuls and Orthodox schools. These are PRIVATE
institutions, and they are allowed to have as much gender segregation
as they please, and outsiders don't get a vote.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Harry Weiss
> On Oct 29, 12:53?pm, flav...@verizon.net wrote:
> > On 29-Oct-2009, Jay L <levin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > On 29-Oct-2009, Jay L <levin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > Americans only
> >
> > > > Thanks for admitting that you really don't know
> > > > why there are sex-segregated busses in Israel.
> > > > or are you, like I said, going to pay for buses
> > > > that revserse the seats?
> >
> > > > Susan
> >
> > > Israel.
> >
> > When you compare it to racism, you prove that you don't.
> >
These women there are happy and when they come they come not for a show,
but to pray to G-d and this is how they feel is the correct way and the
way their parents and gradparents did. They don't find a beed to imitate
the lcoal protestant church.
Jay L
Well, I think so too, but the state has successfully rebuffed every
effort, either through attempted legislation or through the Supreme
Court, to define citizens as "Israeli" instead of "Jewish' in the
Nationality clause of the ID. Circassians and Druzes can be listed as
Circassians or Druzes in the "Nationality" listing, but Israelis
cannot. Israel considers "Jewish" to be both a national and a
religious entity.
Both major parties are to blame. They both kowtow to the Orthodox
parties.
And to correct something Abe said: I do not hate all things Orthodox.
I have respect for people's individual beliefs, and ask that they
respect mine. I strenuously object to O and UO attempts to tell others
how to run their lives and to continue to impose religious coercion on
a populaton that does not wish for it. People are learning -- how Jews
can to marry without a State rabbi, how to have a briss without the
official mohalim, and there are FINALLY some cemeteries where you can
bury your loved one, if you wish, without the rabbinate telling you
how to do so. It took years of legal wrangling to get that. And
increasing numbers of people are taking advantage of this.
The new law which will allow two people (of different sexes!) without
religion to marry through a judge (provided BOTH do not belong to any
religion) will bring more anger. It is the RABBINATE which will decide
who does and who does not belong to a religion, not the individual,
and it is estimated that less than 300 couples per year will be able
to avail themselves of this new civil marriage law. Watch for the
Supreme Court fights to begin anew then,
Israel at this point is the only Western country where Jews do not
have the right to marry anyone they wish.
Jay
cindys
snip
>
> These women there are happy and when they come they come not for a show,
> but to pray to G-d and this is how they feel is the correct way and the
> the local protestant church.
--------------
FTR, there is a really fine Catholic boys-only high school a few miles
from my house. I have never heard anybody complain that it was
offensive that the school was for boys only, and despite the fact that
it is a Catholic school, I actually toyed with the idea of sending my
son there (non-Catholics are exempt from prayers and religion classes)
just so that he could be educated in an atmosphere without the
constant distraction of girls. Realistically, I'm not going to send my
son to Catholic school, but my point is that it is not only Orthodox
Jews who see the merits of sex-segregated education.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Abe Kohen
Also it is one of the few countries where a polygamist can continue living
with his multiple wives, whether they came from a country like Yemen or
India, where polygamy was permitted, or whether the man did not divorce his
first wife and paid 200 rabbis to get a heter d'mea rabbanim to live with
his second wife - while still married to the first.
Whether those "rights" are positives or negatives one can debate, but I for
one have no problem with the way marriages are performed in Israel. Do I
like paying rebbe gelt? Hell, no. But is that different from bribes paid
to grease wheels in other countries?
Best,
Abe
"Jay L" <levi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:145f0e15-f484-47c4...@z34g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
Abe Kohen
> Abe Kohen <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote:
>>> Chareidim being as they are, money is simply
>>> passed forward. Trust is taken for granted.
>
>> Haredim are as honest as the rest of the population. Trust taken for
>> granted
>> <=> Madoff.
>
>
> people to pass money forward? This isn't some recent experiment. It has
I see it happen often on buses in Manhattan in better neighborhoods south of
96th.
I also see drivers let people of the same color on for free north of 96th
Street. (Like on the M15 bus which I might take from 125th when coming back
on Metro North or the bus from Laguardia.)
> been going on for decades, and clearly Egged is content with the
> results.
Egged may or may not be content. The question is whether women like Naomi
Ragen are content to sit in the back of the bus.
>
> They have their bad apples, as does everyone. But that doesn't make the
> community as a whole as dishonest as the rest of the population. If
> anything, their naivite when it comes to other people who appear to be
> one of them survives *because* being burnt by it is so rare.
Until recently, sexual abuse in the UO was unheard of. Not because it didn't
happen, but because it went unreported. Now that it's being reported and it
turns out that the percentages are similar to the population at large. Being
frum or haredi provides a framework to works towards, it does not change the
essence (mahut) of the person.
Fear and greed as primary motivators, or even the hierarchy of Abraham
Maslow, provide a reference for _all_ mankind.
You want to read about Haredi corruption, pick up a weekend copy of Yediot
Ahronot. Whether it's "mehadrin" kashrut for Milu-of or Madoff like scandals
they are all there. And it is not restricted to Sfardim like Dweck or the
Ashkenazi rabbis he fingered.
Best,
Abe
sheldonlg
Cindy, the subject was buses. I agree 100% with you on schools. I do
not on buses. Buses are not for just "dues paying members of a shul".
Harry Weiss
I doubt if more than one or two of the O posters here would prefer
segregated seating themselve. The question is more about the rights of
the Charedim to have it for themselves.
> Shavua Tov,
> Abe
Abe Kohen
yeshivot with their all-boys restriction. I was happiest when I was
permitted to learn in a co-ed ag HS.
However "women in the back" buses are offensive.
Best,
Abe
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:b05a527b-0e8e-490c...@p23g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>>
>> There are now various `private` mostly Local bus companies who
>> serve people in many lines ,, Egged lost it`s monopol .
Mirjam, that is regarding inter-city bus lines. The topic here is
bus lines _in_ the city.
--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> Abe Kohen <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> I no longer have a car, so it has no impact on me, as I haven't
>> shopped in Bergen County in a VERY long time.
>
> I, OTOH, live 1/2 mile away from that county, 3 of my children are
> at a school there -- 2 students and a teacher.
I didn't know one of your children is a teacher. Congratulations.
What does s/he teach?
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mirjam wrote:
>
>> There are now various `private` mostly Local bus companies who
>> serve people in many lines ,, Egged lost it`s monopol .
>
> start its own bus line and be done with it.
As I already wrote, what mirjam wrote is correct regarding inter-city
buses. Eged does have a monopoly in Jerusalem.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> cindys wrote:
>> On Nov 1, 8:15 am, Fattush <fattuc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
BIG SNIP
While the original subject might have been buses, Cindy was
responding to FT who wrote about a shul. Perhaps, because nobody
snipped the begining of the post, you thought it was still discussing
buses.
Matt Silberstein
soc.culture.jewish.moderated , mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> in
<4crpe51eu2hte6r0f...@4ax.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 01:33:26 +0000 (UTC), Matt Silberstein
><RemoveThisPref...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 19:44:31 +0000 (UTC), in
>>soc.culture.jewish.moderated , mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> in
>><ajfme51dn4jb4t31g...@4ax.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:52:33 +0000 (UTC), Jay L <levi...@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Oct 30, 12:20 pm, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:19:21 +0000 (UTC), Jay L <levin...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> >You know what, Shel? I would do away with these busses. The UOs can
>>>>> >learn to live in the 21st century, or get their own damn busses. The
>>>>> >last episode of O soldiers waving banners of which orders they will
>>>>> >and will not obey at their swearing in ceremony at the kotel really
>>>>> >broke this camel's back. Those soldiers were sentenced to 20- days
>>>>> >brig time. I would sentence their rabbis to two years in jail.
>>>>>
>>>>> >Jay
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you live in Israel, Jay? Do your children or parents? Which of
>>>>> them lives is Israel?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think you don't and you should take care of your own house and leave
>>>>> Israel alone.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>You have no idea where my house is.
>>>
>>>I seem to have been right, since you don't say your house is in
>>>Israel.
>>>
>>>> I have parents, siblings, friends,
>>>>uncles, aunts, cousins, and a lot of business associates in Israel. I
>>>>speak with Israeli business associates on the phone 2-3 times a day,
>>>>and I am there fairly often.
>>>
>>>For this purpose, I don't care about any of the rest except that your
>>>parents live there, iiuc.
>>>
>>>>Do you tell Matt the same thing? What do you want with Darfur? Take
>>>
>>>Do you really think there is a simlarity between what Matt complains
>>>about and what you do?
>
>One can always find some similarity. "They were both sentences with
>verbs in the indicative."
>Are you saying that YOU think sex-segregated buses on a few routes in
>Israel is a problem of similar nature, similar severity, to what has
>been happening in Darfur?
No. Do you seem me putting it in my sig? Do you see me bring up the
buses over and over? I don't have a clue why you ask this other than
to distract.
>>>>care of your own house and stop worrying about those poor raped women
>>>>in Darfur? When I was in Washington demonstrating on behalf of Soviet
>>>>Jewry, did you counsel people to take care of their own house and stop
>>>>bothering the Soviets with the so-called Jewish problem? Would you
>>>
>>>Do you really think there is a similarity between freedom for Soviet
>>>Jews and what you've been complaining about?
>>
>>Yes, it is a comment about the actions inside another country.
>>Something you selectively object to.
>
>I object to serious problems and I don't object to small problems that
>have no solution, because one choice is in conformance with the
>believes of a group of observant Jews and other, less observant Jews
>don't like that. What are your standards?
I object to big problems everywhere, small problems in place that
matter to me and I have a connection to, and medium problems as I have
time. If you want to say that things inside Israel are off limits to
American Jews, then say that. But say that when you ask for help, not
when you want them to butt out.
>>>>suggest that people who don't live in California should not be
>>>>concerned with the shootings in a synagogue there? Or that those who
>>>>are not gay should not bother with gay rights, or men should not
>>>>bother with reproduction rights for women?
>>>
>>>Shootings, death, rape, religious and personal suppression, you think
>>>these are similar to bus seating?
>>
>>There are *some* similarities and *some* differences, yes.
>
>Yes, the similarity is that they are all objected to. Do YOU make
>comparisons between little things like sex-segregated buses on some
>routes in Israel and shootings, death (in Darfur and elsewhere),
No, do you?
>rape
>(in Darfur and elsewhere), and confinement within the Soviet Union
>while ones religious, personal, and Jewish national actions are
>suppressed?
Are you comparing the mass rape and killings currently occurring in
Darfur to the Soviet restrictions on Jewish education and emigration?
>>>>I love Israel, I grew up there, I served in her military, I studied
>>>>there, I support her, and I care very much when I see a country being
>>>>destroyed because of fanaticism and 14th century idiocies. Perhaps you
>>>>would care too, if you really cared about Israel.
>>>
>>>Because I disagree with you on bus seating, you think I don't care
>>>about Israel! You think bus seating and all the related things are
>>>destroying Israel! That's fanaticism and 21st century idiocy on your
>>>part.
>>>
>>>What do your parents say or do about the bus seating issue in Israel?
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
Matt Silberstein
>On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 01:33:55 +0000 (UTC), Matt Silberstein
><RemoveThisPref...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:20:17 +0000 (UTC), in
>>soc.culture.jewish.moderated , mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> in
>><ut3me514cumq3950v...@4ax.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:19:21 +0000 (UTC), Jay L <levi...@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>You know what, Shel? I would do away with these busses. The UOs can
>>>>learn to live in the 21st century, or get their own damn busses. The
>>>>last episode of O soldiers waving banners of which orders they will
>>>>and will not obey at their swearing in ceremony at the kotel really
>>>>broke this camel's back. Those soldiers were sentenced to 20- days
>>>>brig time. I would sentence their rabbis to two years in jail.
>>>>
>>>>Jay
>>>
>>>Do you live in Israel, Jay? Do your children or parents? Which of
>>>them lives is Israel?
>>>
>>>I think you don't and you should take care of your own house and leave
>>>Israel alone.
>>
>>So Jews in the Diaspora are not allowed any comment at all, just
>>lock-step agreement with the Israeli Right.
>
>First off, why would not commenting at all be lock-step agreement with
>the Israeli Right?
Because elsewhere we were told that we should face excommunication for
not agreeing with the present government.
> Why wouldn't it be lock-step agreement with the
>Israeli Left, or Israeli Center. Why would it be agreement or
>disagreement with anyone?
Because the left did not suggest excommunication. Because the left
here did not call people Judenrats for their lack of support.
>A large part of the problem with Jay's particular post was that he
>didn't just express an opinion on sexual segregation in a few buses,
>but that he used profaanity and wanted to send their rabbis to jail.
For a different issue entirely. He want to send them to jail for
challenging military discipline.
>Jay is vey proficient at being nasty. He adds no light to many
>threads, only heat.
>
>Many other posts by him and ohter people have the same or diffferent
>problems.
>
>I'll be back in two days. We can discuss this more reasonably then.
Fattush
Question: I would bet there are American whites, especially in the
South, who feel uncomfortable having their children attend school
with non-whites. In your opinion, should they be able to have white
only private schools? White only public schools? White only country
clubs? How about a white only bus line? White only hospital?
What about Christian organizations that don't feel comfortable around
Jews? Would you approve of Christian only country clubs? Golf
courses? Cab company?
It's a shame that
> your friend felt uncomfortable, but she's not a member of that shul is
> she? When I go to a Conservative synagogue, I feel uncomfortable, but
> I don't start bitching that they outta have separate seating to
> accommodate my sensibilities.
You missed my point entirely.
Ever hear of the US Supreme Court decision Brown vs. Board of
Education? In that famous case, the court set aside segregated
schooling. The Court found that the notion of "separate but equal" was
inherently unequal no matter how one slices it.
Do you disagree with that decision? Do you think that in the US (or
other Western nations) there should be schools segregated by race?
How about segregation based on religion or other categories?
Do you really believe that Orthodox boys' schools and Orthodox girls'
schools truly provide an equal education to both?
BTW, I have spoken with Orthodox parents about their child's
schooling. I would bet that most are happy with their schooling, but
a few have told me (and I am not Orthodox) that they are not very
happy. One mother of a little girl told me she was disappointed with
her daughter's schooling, and how she felt the school programmed her
daughter to be a mommy, housewife, etc. rather than having a career.
Another Orthodox mother of several handsome little boys told me she
was not happy with her boys' schooling, but felt she had no choice.
Her complaint (much to my surprise) was that the Orthodox schools gave
her boys a minimal education in secular subjects so that it was very
unlikely that any of her children would be able to gain admission into
any decent college. She explained that her boys get, perhaps, 3 hours
a day of secular schooling in the yeshiva, and the rest of their days
(which were very, very long) were spent on religious matters. I was
surprised to learn this. I am much more familiar with public schools,
and from my experience, public school children in the same city get 5
or 6 hours a day of secular subjects.
>
> I'm not sure why there needs to be this ongoing footstamping that the
> Orthodox Jews should somehow feel compelled to conform to the secular
> worldview of the non-Orthodox Jews who feel uncomfortable with sex-
> segregated shuls and schools but who are not the ones paying dues or
> tuition at Orthodox shuls and Orthodox schools. These are PRIVATE
> institutions, and they are allowed to have as much gender segregation
> as they please, and outsiders don't get a vote.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
I understand your point. However in my mind, if gender segregation is
legal, why not racial or ethnic segregation? Why not make blacks sit
in the back of the bus all over the US? Or why not have whites or
Jews sit in the back of the bus?
And conversely, if racial/ethinic segregation is illegal, why should
gender segregation in school, on a bus, in a house of worship, etc. be
legal?
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>
> Perhaps Orthodox Jews don't see it as bigotry towards women, but
> in my opinion, many Jews who are Americanized/securalized would
> see it as bigotry.
That's why you have to look at it "in *their* shoes".
> A friend of mine reported an experience where she was invited to
> attend services at a Chasidic shule. She had never been there before
> and was not experienced with ultra Orthodox services. To her surprise,
> the woman were forced to sit all the way in the back, behind a wall.
> The wall had some little slit in it so the women could peak out if
> they tried extra hard. The men sat up front and the services were
> conducted entirely by men. My friend could hardly see what was going
> on and certainly did not feel like a participant or like someone who
> was welcome. She was very uncomfortable and not happy.
>
> Frankly, in my opinion, if an ultra Orthodox shule is going to be set
> up like that, why have a section for women at all? What woman in her
> right mind would even want to "attend" such services? Let's face
> it . . . the women were treated as if they were unwelcome distractions
> at best.
And since they _are_ set up like that, and since women _do_ go, they
obviously don't share your opinin.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>>> Chareidim being as they are, money is simply
>>> passed forward. Trust is taken for granted.
Actually, that is true for all segments of Israeli society, When a
bus is very crowded, the driver will often oben the back doors and
allow people on from there. And then all who don't have "monthly"
passes will pass the fare or the transit card to be punched forward.
The reciept and the punched card _always_ get back to the passenger.
What _is_ special about the Mehadrin buses, is that there is a punch
hanging next to the back door to allow those entering the back to
punch their own ticket.
>> Haredim are as honest as the rest of the population. Trust taken
>> for granted <=> Madoff.
>
> As three boys in Japan are learning the hard way -- and they too were
> willing to smuggle ancient manuscripts into the country, they just didn't
> know they were also smuggling drugs. And didn't someone set up a table
> on Rechov Mei'ah She'arim just two weeks after Madoff and successfully
> market a fake investment? He didn't actually take money; it was just
> to show how hopelessly naive the chareidi man in the street is when it
> comes to these matters. The guy looks "frum", has glossy paperwork and
> all the legalese to look official, they believe him.
>
> That said, in how many other communities could the bus driver rely on
> people to pass money forward? This isn't some recent experiment. It has
> been going on for decades, and clearly Egged is content with the
> results.
>
> They have their bad apples, as does everyone. But that doesn't make the
> community as a whole as dishonest as the rest of the population. If
> anything, their naivite when it comes to other people who appear to be
> one of them survives *because* being burnt by it is so rare.
Thank you Micha. Abe's comment was very nasty.