Fifth column?
Fattush
Israel) worry about a fifth column in its midst?
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/nidal-malik-hasan-wanted-army-family/story?id=9008184
Micha Berger
Are we in a position to accuse others of dual loyalty?
:-)BBii!
-Micha
Herman Rubin
Fattush <fatt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>In light of the tragedy at Fort Hood, should the US military (and
>Israel) worry about a fifth column in its midst?
The US, and its military, do worry about it. From the
available facts, it seems that the Army did not worry
enough. Also, his associates made the deadly mistake of
making remarks based on his ancestry which should be
prohibited in any civilized society. There is much too
much of this in military units.
The military does not want to allow someone to leave;
this is also a mistake, which should not be made. In
this case, they did not even attempt to look at the
situation intelligently.
>http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/nidal-malik-hasan-wanted-army-family/story?id=9008184
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hru...@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
DoD
"Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote in message
news:hd1j3i$7bj$4...@harrier.steinthal.us...
I never heard of any Jews fragging their fellow US armed service members..
Do you have any
examples of such? This is not this first time Muslims have done this.
David
Patty
> "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote in message
>
> news:hd1j3i$7bj$4...@harrier.steinthal.us...
>
> >> In light of the tragedy at Fort Hood, should the US military (and
> >> Israel) worry about a fifth column in its midst?
>
> > Are we in a position to accuse others of dual loyalty?
>
> I never heard of any Jews fragging their fellow US armed service members..
> Do you have any
> examples of such? This is not this first time Muslims have done this.
>
> David
First, "I never heard of" is not proof that Jews have not been
arrested for attacking non-Jews. Go do the homework yourself.
Further, it doesn't matter what actually happened. Read your Bible:
Pharaoh said let's get wise to the Jews... lest war come upon us and
they also fight against us.
The Liberty affair is also used against Israel over and over again by
anti-Semites. So is the case of Jonathan Pollard. There's an even
more recent case but I can't remember the name of the guy accused.
Then there's the Leo Frank case -- he WAS innocent and he still died
just on suspicion.
"Do not torment the stranger, for you know the heart of the stranger,
for you were strangers in the land of Egypt."
DoD
"Patty" <paj...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:a5ad5ff7-3ff3-4746...@f16g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 6, 1:15 pm, "DoD" <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote in message
>>
>> news:hd1j3i$7bj$4...@harrier.steinthal.us...
>>
>> > Fattush <fattuc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> In light of the tragedy at Fort Hood, should the US military (and
>> >> Israel) worry about a fifth column in its midst?
>> >>http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/nidal-malik-hasan-wanted-army-famil...
>>
>> > Are we in a position to accuse others of dual loyalty?
>>
>> I never heard of any Jews fragging their fellow US armed service
>> members..
>> Do you have any
>> examples of such? This is not this first time Muslims have done this.
>>
>> David
>
> First, "I never heard of" is not proof that Jews have not been
> arrested for attacking non-Jews. Go do the homework yourself.
I did... I can't recall or find any examples of Jews fragging fellow
military
personel... If you have evidence to the contrary please post it.
> Further, it doesn't matter what actually happened. Read your Bible:
> Pharaoh said let's get wise to the Jews... lest war come upon us and
> they also fight against us.
Umm..ok... Didn't he have a funny looking hat and a sceptre?
> The Liberty affair is also used against Israel over and over again by
> anti-Semites. So is the case of Jonathan Pollard. There's an even
> more recent case but I can't remember the name of the guy accused.
> Then there's the Leo Frank case -- he WAS innocent and he still died
> just on suspicion.
I don't get what you point is? We all know that anti-semites will find a
beef
with Jews whether it be Jon (puff daddy) Pollard, or if you all stood on
street corners
giving away money. I still know of no case of any Jew killing fellow
service members.
> "Do not torment the stranger, for you know the heart of the stranger,
> for you were strangers in the land of Egypt."
I don't get the above passage..
David
Fattush
>
> news:hd1j3i$7bj$4...@harrier.steinthal.us...
>
> >> In light of the tragedy at Fort Hood, should the US military (and
> >> Israel) worry about a fifth column in its midst?
>
> > Are we in a position to accuse others of dual loyalty?
>
> I never heard of any Jews fragging their fellow US armed service members..
> Do you have any
> examples of such? This is not this first time Muslims have done this.
>
> David
That was my exact reaction too.
It is unfortunate that this Muslim fellow had ugly remarks thrown his
way . . . . but that is no excuse to kill or hurt other people. I
would guess his loyalties were to his brother Muslims and he did not
want to be sent overseas to engage them in comb at.
Fattush
> Fattush <fattuc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > In light of the tragedy at Fort Hood, should the US military (and
> > Israel) worry about a fifth column in its midst?
>
> Are we in a position to accuse others of dual loyalty?
>
> :-)BBii!
> -Micha
I realize it is a fine line. But IMO one big difference is that I
haven't opened up my newspaper lately and read a story about Jews
hijacking planes and flying them into the Pentagon.
fla...@verizon.net
On 6-Nov-2009, Patty <paj...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On Nov 6, 1:15�pm, "DoD" <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote in message
> >
> > news:hd1j3i$7bj$4...@harrier.steinthal.us...
> >
> > > Fattush <fattuc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> In light of the tragedy at Fort Hood, should the US military (and
> > >> Israel) worry about a fifth column �in its midst?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/nidal-malik-hasan-wanted-army-famil...
> >
> > > Are we in a position to accuse others of dual loyalty?
> >
> > I never heard of any Jews fragging their fellow US armed service
> > members..
> > Do you have any
> > examples of such? This is not this first time Muslims have done this.
> >
> > David
>
> First, "I never heard of" is not proof that Jews have not been
> arrested for attacking non-Jews. Go do the homework yourself.
>
> Further, it doesn't matter what actually happened. Read your Bible:
> Pharaoh said let's get wise to the Jews... lest war come upon us and
> they also fight against us.
DoD is talking about reality, not what people make up.
Susan
Abe Kohen
Yes. Israel is not an enemy of the US. Israel does not call for Jihad.
Israel does not call for death to the USA.
Shavua tov,
Abe
lee
> Fattush <fattuc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > In light of the tragedy at Fort Hood, should the US military (and
> > Israel) worry about a fifth column in its midst?
>
> Are we in a position to accuse others of dual loyalty?
>
> :-)BBii!
> -Micha
As Micha said
chsw
Maj. Nidal alleged that in conversations with his family, his
family members maintain. His colleaugues at his previous station
and at medical school have said that Nidal went out of his way to
argue about Islam and about the wars in Iraq , Afghanistan, and
about the war on terror in general as being wars against Islam.
chsw
mm
wrote:
He was described as coming from Jordan in first day reports. A couple
days later NPR described him as a Palestinian. (Meaning I'm sure, a
Jordanian Palestinian, but still another Palestinian like Sirhan
Sirhan.)
He is also quoted as saying roughly his loyalty was to Islam and not
America.
If we were already in Iraq when he was in medical school, why would he
join the army when it's troops were in Iraq and Afghanistan if he was
against the wars there. I'm not doubting you. I'm asking why anyone
would do that.
--
Meir
"The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
lee
> On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 16:58:32 +0000 (UTC), chsw <chsw10...@yahoo.com>
Perhaps by some strange metamorphosis he became more religious or
political over time. Apparently some people do change their positions/
opinions over the course of their lifetimes.
chsw
Nidal is now conscious. His family has asked for attorneys for
both him and themselves.
chsw
chsw
There is a list of 65 known jihad attacks in the past 37 years at
the end of this article from Atlas Shrugs blog:
chsw
mm
wrote:
>Perhaps by some strange metamorphosis he became more religious or
>political over time. Apparently some people do change their positions/
>opinions over the course of their lifetimes.
Apparently that's not it. He was like this in medical school too, we
hear today and maybe I heard it before I posted. There is no draft,
even of doctors. He had to enlist.
Well I don't think there is, but there might be some program where
someone can enlist before finishing medical school, maybe get part of
it paid for. LIke I say, I don't think there is. I've never heard of
that since the draft ended. (My brother enlisted before his residency
started, in return for being allowed to finish his residency before
joining the active army, but that was when there was a draft.)
Amitai
> Fattush wrote:
> > In light of the tragedy at Fort Hood, should the US military (and
> > Israel) worry about a fifth column in its midst?
>
>
> Nidal is now conscious. His family has asked for attorneys for
> both him and themselves.
>
From today's New York Times
U.S. Knew of Fort Hood Suspect’s Tie to Radical Cleric
WASHINGTON — Intelligence agencies intercepted communications last
year and this year between the military psychiatrist accused of
shooting to death 13 people at Fort Hood, Tex., and a radical cleric
in Yemen known for his incendiary anti-American teachings.
Read the full story at
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/10/us/10inquire.html?hp
The fifth column clearly exists, but its existence is being
deliberately ignored. IMO this is criminal negligence.
> chsw
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
Another point of that article, was that the Head of Homeland Security
Janet Napolitano is worried that "Muslim Americans Could Be Victims".
As that article goes on to demonstrate, there was exactly _one_
killing of a Muslim after 9/11. That was done by a white
supremicist who was sentenced to death. OTOH there have been over
six _thousand_ Americans killed by Muslims, So _who_ should the head
of Homeland Security be worried about?
--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> chsw <chsw10...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Fattush wrote:
>
>> > In light of the tragedy at Fort Hood, should the US military
>> > (and Israel) worry about a fifth column in its midst?
>>
>> >http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/nidal-malik-hasan-wanted-army-famil...
>>
>> Nidal is now conscious. His family has asked for attorneys for
>> both him and themselves.
>
> From today's New York Times
>
> U.S. Knew of Fort Hood Suspect's Tie to Radical Cleric
>
> year and this year between the military psychiatrist accused of
> shooting to death 13 people at Fort Hood, Tex., and a radical cleric
> in Yemen known for his incendiary anti-American teachings.
>
> Read the full story at
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/10/us/10inquire.html?hp
>
> The fifth column clearly exists, but its existence is being
> deliberately ignored. IMO this is criminal negligence.
No, it's PC.
Micha Berger
> As that article goes on to demonstrate, there was exactly _one_
> killing of a Muslim after 9/11. That was done by a white
> supremicist who was sentenced to death. OTOH there have been over
> six _thousand_ Americans killed by Muslims, So _who_ should the head
> of Homeland Security be worried about?
Both. If nothing else, a spate of killing of Moslems for the acts of other
Moslems would rob the US of its entire self-definition. To paraphrase
the physicist Richard Feynman, "It has nothing to do with defending our
country, except to make it worth defending." (He said it in testimony to
the Senate, explaining why Dept of Defense money should be allocated to
buiding FermiLab. I think the line is even more appropriately used here.)
It's like why Israel risks its own soldiers to reduce harm to enemy
civilians. Because if we have to sacrifice our Jewish character to
survive, is it worth the country's survival? Is there a value to having a
Jewish state in which we do not aspire to being "compassionate, bashful,
and engaging in supporting acts of kindness"? (The three traits tr. Yavams
says are "signs of this nation".)
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger If you won't be better tomorrow
mi...@aishdas.org than you were today,
http://www.aishdas.org then what do you need tomorrow for?
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Rebbe Nachman of Breslov
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>
>> As that article goes on to demonstrate, there was exactly _one_
>> killing of a Muslim after 9/11. That was done by a white
>> supremicist who was sentenced to death. OTOH there have been over
>> six _thousand_ Americans killed by Muslims, So _who_ should the head
>> of Homeland Security be worried about?
>
> Both. If nothing else, a spate of killing of Moslems for the acts of other
> Moslems would rob the US of its entire self-definition. To paraphrase
> the physicist Richard Feynman, "It has nothing to do with defending our
> country, except to make it worth defending." (He said it in testimony to
> the Senate, explaining why Dept of Defense money should be allocated to
> buiding FermiLab. I think the line is even more appropriately used here.)
Oy Micha. As I posted in another thread, this is a Muslim _tactic_.
After every Muslim rampage, instead of condemning it, loud and clear,
they go into "victim mode" and worry about some imaginary "backlash".
Like the bumper sticker: Muslims worried over backlash to tommorrow's
terrorist attack.
No one is calling for some vigilante-type killing. As you say, it
would be totally counter-productive and un-American. But by sounding
the "alarm" over a backlash, a-la Chicken Little, they deflect
honest scrutiny of themselves and honest governmental action to
protect other Americans.
> It's like why Israel risks its own soldiers to reduce harm to enemy
> civilians. Because if we have to sacrifice our Jewish character to
> survive, is it worth the country's survival? Is there a value to having a
> Jewish state in which we do not aspire to being "compassionate, bashful,
> and engaging in supporting acts of kindness"? (The three traits tr. Yavams
> says are "signs of this nation".)
Micha, I have no argument with your ideas. I just don't think they
are a reflection of what's actually happening. IOW, you're falling
for Muslim Public Relations.
cindys
> mi...@aishdas.org (Micha Berger) writes:
> > mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>
> >> As that article goes on to demonstrate, there was exactly _one_
> >> killing of a Muslim after 9/11. That was done by a white
> >> supremicist who was sentenced to death. OTOH there have been over
> >> six _thousand_ Americans killed by Muslims, So _who_ should the head
> >> of Homeland Security be worried about?
>
> > Both. If nothing else, a spate of killing of Moslems for the acts of other
> > Moslems would rob the US of its entire self-definition. To paraphrase
> > the physicist Richard Feynman, "It has nothing to do with defending our
> > country, except to make it worth defending." (He said it in testimony to
> > the Senate, explaining why Dept of Defense money should be allocated to
> > buiding FermiLab. I think the line is even more appropriately used here.)
>
> Oy Micha. As I posted in another thread, this is a Muslim _tactic_.
> After every Muslim rampage, instead of condemning it, loud and clear,
> they go into "victim mode" and worry about some imaginary "backlash".
It's not imaginary.
> Like the bumper sticker: Muslims worried over backlash to tommorrow's
> terrorist attack.
>
> No one is calling for some vigilante-type killing. As you say, it
> would be totally counter-productive and un-American. But by sounding
> the "alarm" over a backlash, a-la Chicken Little, they deflect
> honest scrutiny of themselves and honest governmental action to
> protect other Americans.
>
> > It's like why Israel risks its own soldiers to reduce harm to enemy
> > civilians. Because if we have to sacrifice our Jewish character to
> > survive, is it worth the country's survival? Is there a value to having a
> > Jewish state in which we do not aspire to being "compassionate, bashful,
> > and engaging in supporting acts of kindness"? (The three traits tr. Yavams
> > says are "signs of this nation".)
>
> Micha, I have no argument with your ideas. I just don't think they
> are a reflection of what's actually happening.
Yes, they are.
>IOW, you're falling
> for Muslim Public Relations.
No, he's not. WADR, Moshe, Micha and I live in the USA, and we see
with our own eyes what's going on. Facts on the ground, there is and
has been a huge backlash against Muslims in the USA, the bulk of whom
are just regular people trying to live their lives, go to work every
day, raise their kids, mow their lawns, etc and are not associating
with radical Muslim clerics. And incidents like the one at Ft. Hood
make them afraid. Muslims living in America are already generally
regarded with suspicion, targeted, singled out, often harassed in
subtle ways. Just because there hasn't been a massive anti-Muslim
pogrom doesn't mean there isn't any backlash.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> mi...@aishdas.org (Micha Berger) writes:
>> > mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>>
>> >> As that article goes on to demonstrate, there was exactly _one_
>> >> killing of a Muslim after 9/11. That was done by a white
>> >> supremicist who was sentenced to death. OTOH there have been over
>> >> six _thousand_ Americans killed by Muslims, So _who_ should the head
>> >> of Homeland Security be worried about?
>>
>> > Both. If nothing else, a spate of killing of Moslems for the acts of other
>> > Moslems would rob the US of its entire self-definition. To paraphrase
>> > the physicist Richard Feynman, "It has nothing to do with defending our
> o
>> > the Senate, explaining why Dept of Defense money should be allocated to
>> > buiding FermiLab. I think the line is even more appropriately used here.)
>>
>> Oy Micha. As I posted in another thread, this is a Muslim _tactic_.
>> After every Muslim rampage, instead of condemning it, loud and clear,
>> they go into "victim mode" and worry about some imaginary "backlash".
>
> It's not imaginary.
>
>> Like the bumper sticker: Muslims worried over backlash to tommorrow's
>> terrorist attack.
>>
>> No one is calling for some vigilante-type killing. As you say, it
>> would be totally counter-productive and un-American. But by sounding
>> the "alarm" over a backlash, a-la Chicken Little, they deflect
>> honest scrutiny of themselves and honest governmental action to
>> protect other Americans.
>>
>> > It's like why Israel risks its own soldiers to reduce harm to enemy
>> > civilians. Because if we have to sacrifice our Jewish character to
> a
>> > Jewish state in which we do not aspire to being "compassionate, bashful=
> ,
>> > and engaging in supporting acts of kindness"? (The three traits tr. Yav=
> ams
>> > says are "signs of this nation".)
>>
>> Micha, I have no argument with your ideas. I just don't think they
>> are a reflection of what's actually happening.
>
> Yes, they are.
>
>>IOW, you're falling
>> for Muslim Public Relations.
>
> No, he's not. WADR, Moshe, Micha and I live in the USA, and we see
> with our own eyes what's going on. Facts on the ground, there is and
> has been a huge backlash against Muslims in the USA, the bulk of whom
> are just regular people trying to live their lives, go to work every
> day, raise their kids, mow their lawns, etc and are not associating
> with radical Muslim clerics. And incidents like the one at Ft. Hood
> make them afraid. Muslims living in America are already generally
> regarded with suspicion, targeted, singled out, often harassed in
> subtle ways. Just because there hasn't been a massive anti-Muslim
> pogrom doesn't mean there isn't any backlash.
Thank you Cindy. But I suspect what Homeland Security claims to be
worried about not "subtle" harassment but a massive anti-Muslim
pogrom. Or at least, that's the impression I'm getting.
BTW, was there _any_ immigrant group to America that did not suffer
"subtle" harassment? But the Muslims make a "living" playing that
victim card.
Don Levey
> mi...@aishdas.org (Micha Berger) writes:
>> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>>
>>> As that article goes on to demonstrate, there was exactly _one_
>>> killing of a Muslim after 9/11. That was done by a white
>>> supremicist who was sentenced to death. OTOH there have been over
>>> six _thousand_ Americans killed by Muslims, So _who_ should the head
>>> of Homeland Security be worried about?
>> Both. If nothing else, a spate of killing of Moslems for the acts of other
>> Moslems would rob the US of its entire self-definition. To paraphrase
>> the physicist Richard Feynman, "It has nothing to do with defending our
>> country, except to make it worth defending." (He said it in testimony to
>> the Senate, explaining why Dept of Defense money should be allocated to
>> buiding FermiLab. I think the line is even more appropriately used here.)
>
> Oy Micha. As I posted in another thread, this is a Muslim _tactic_.
> After every Muslim rampage, instead of condemning it, loud and clear,
> they go into "victim mode" and worry about some imaginary "backlash".
> Like the bumper sticker: Muslims worried over backlash to tommorrow's
> terrorist attack.
>
against Moslems after the 2001 attacks that is still being felt today.
It would be just as accurate to talk about some "imaginary backlash"
after Madoff - when we expressed concern here.
The US is not (yet) Europe, and the dynamic is different here.
Keep in mind that if all 1.2 billion Muslims in the world were intent on
taking it over, it would have already happened. Perhaps the fact that
it hasn't means something.
> No one is calling for some vigilante-type killing.
Yes, some are. I've not yet seen credible media pundits making that
call, but I've heard the chatter.
> As you say, it
> would be totally counter-productive and un-American. But by sounding
> the "alarm" over a backlash, a-la Chicken Little, they deflect
> honest scrutiny of themselves and honest governmental action to
> protect other Americans.
>
>> It's like why Israel risks its own soldiers to reduce harm to enemy
>> civilians. Because if we have to sacrifice our Jewish character to
>> survive, is it worth the country's survival? Is there a value to having a
>> Jewish state in which we do not aspire to being "compassionate, bashful,
>> and engaging in supporting acts of kindness"? (The three traits tr. Yavams
>> says are "signs of this nation".)
>
> Micha, I have no argument with your ideas. I just don't think they
> are a reflection of what's actually happening. IOW, you're falling
> for Muslim Public Relations.
>
For what it's worth, local Muslim groups have condemned the attack, and
at least one group local to Fort Hood has been raising money to help the
victims. It must all be PR.
--
Don Levey, Framingam MA If knowledge is power,
(email address in header works) and power corrupts, then...
NOTE: Don't send mail to to sal...@the-leveys.us
GnuPG public key: http://www.the-leveys.us:6080/keys/don-dsakey.asc
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
I am very glad to hear all this Don, thanks for telling me. Perhaps
being closer to Europe that to USA and perhaps the fact that I feel
personally afraid of my Muslim neighbors, I am forgetting the basic
goodness of Americans.
Don Levey
>
>
> Thank you Cindy. But I suspect what Homeland Security claims to be
> worried about not "subtle" harassment but a massive anti-Muslim
> pogrom. Or at least, that's the impression I'm getting.
>
we're not supposed to officially tolerate even subtle harassment;
Americans are Americans and that is (supposed to be) that. It's also
easier to nip this sort of thing in the bud, before it escalates.
> BTW, was there _any_ immigrant group to America that did not suffer
> "subtle" harassment? But the Muslims make a "living" playing that
> victim card.
>
Um, Moshe - with all due respect, many many people say the same thing
about us. It's one of the criticisms of Israel, too.
Don Levey
> Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> writes:
>>
>>>
>> For what it's worth, local Muslim groups have condemned the attack, and
>> at least one group local to Fort Hood has been raising money to help the
>> victims. It must all be PR.
>
> I am very glad to hear all this Don, thanks for telling me. Perhaps
> being closer to Europe that to USA and perhaps the fact that I feel
> personally afraid of my Muslim neighbors, I am forgetting the basic
> goodness of Americans.
>
sort of victims of our own values. Absent overt threats from specific
people, it's a violation of American values to pursue possible threats
for fear of persecution. This is one of the problems many people had
with the previous administration.
cindys
Just this past week, I was reading a story about antisemitism on
campus. Apparently, the Hillel sukkah at one of the universities in
California had been vandalized. The way Hillel handled the situation
was (rather than cower in fear) to publicize the incident for the
entire campus to know about it. (I wish I could remember where I read
this story - I think it was in _Time_ or _Newsweek_). The net result
was that a lot of students (including mostly non-Jewish students)
volunteered to sleep in the sukkah and/or pitch a tent outside of it
to guard it from vandals. One non-Jewish girl said she had nearly
frozen her tushy off sleeping in a tent outside the sukkah, but as a
Christian, she felt it was important for her to defend other people's
religions (or something like that).
The University Interfaith Council (which includes all campus religious
organizations) publicly condemned the vandalism. In particular, the
Muslim Student Union condemned the vandalism, and the president of
that organization made a point of saying that it was unacceptable to
attack anybody's religion in this manner.
In the end, the entire student body was invited to shabbos dinner in
the sukkah and about 60 students (of various faiths) attended. I don't
remember if I got all the details right, but if someone else read the
story, and I messed up the details, feel free to correct me.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
fla...@verizon.net
On 10-Nov-2009, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
> Amitai <chr...@techunix.technion.ac.il> writes:
> > chsw <chsw10...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> Fattush wrote:
> >
> >> > In light of the tragedy at Fort Hood, should the US military
> >> > (and Israel) worry about a fifth column in its midst?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/nidal-malik-hasan-wanted-army-famil...
> >>
> >> Nidal is now conscious. His family has asked for attorneys for
> >> both him and themselves.
> >
> > From today's New York Times
> >
> > U.S. Knew of Fort Hood Suspect's Tie to Radical Cleric
> >
> > WASHINGTON - Intelligence agencies intercepted communications last
> > year and this year between the military psychiatrist accused of
> > shooting to death 13 people at Fort Hood, Tex., and a radical cleric
> > in Yemen known for his incendiary anti-American teachings.
> >
> > Read the full story at
> > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/10/us/10inquire.html?hp
> >
> > The fifth column clearly exists, but its existence is being
> > deliberately ignored. IMO this is criminal negligence.
>
> No, it's PC.
In this case, it's both.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 10-Nov-2009, mi...@aishdas.org (Micha Berger) wrote:
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
> > As that article goes on to demonstrate, there was exactly _one_
> > killing of a Muslim after 9/11. That was done by a white
> > supremicist who was sentenced to death. OTOH there have been over
> > six _thousand_ Americans killed by Muslims, So _who_ should the head
> > of Homeland Security be worried about?
>
> Both. If nothing else, a spate of killing of Moslems for the acts of other
> Moslems would rob the US of its entire self-definition. To paraphrase
> the physicist Richard Feynman, "It has nothing to do with defending our
> country, except to make it worth defending." (He said it in testimony to
> the Senate, explaining why Dept of Defense money should be allocated to
> buiding FermiLab. I think the line is even more appropriately used here.)
>
> It's like why Israel risks its own soldiers to reduce harm to enemy
> civilians. Because if we have to sacrifice our Jewish character to
> survive, is it worth the country's survival? Is there a value to having a
> Jewish state in which we do not aspire to being "compassionate, bashful,
> and engaging in supporting acts of kindness"? (The three traits tr. Yavams
> says are "signs of this nation".)
If others think this is off-topic, than I apologize in advance.
This is one of the reasons I was for invading Iraq.
America helped put/keep Saddam Hussein in power,
and we owed it to the Iraqi people to at least help
get rid of him (Yes, his removal can be said to have
caused more problems than it solved, and I have a
bit to say on that ubject as well, but that's definitely
OT).
But I felt it was a national debt of honor. I admit I
wouldn;t bas *as crazy* about it if it were my baby
on the front lines, but I'd like to think I wouldn't whine
about it.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 10-Nov-2009, Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote:
> Keep in mind that if all 1.2 billion Muslims in the world were intent on
> taking it over, it would have already happened. Perhaps the fact that
> it hasn't means something.
Hear, hear!
(Here, here?)
Susan
Micha Berger
>> Both. If nothing else, a spate of killing of Moslems for the acts of other
>> Moslems would rob the US of its entire self-definition. To paraphrase
>> the physicist Richard Feynman, "It has nothing to do with defending our
>> country, except to make it worth defending." (He said it in testimony to
>> the Senate, explaining why Dept of Defense money should be allocated to
>> buiding FermiLab. I think the line is even more appropriately used here.)
>
> Oy Micha. As I posted in another thread, this is a Muslim _tactic_.
> After every Muslim rampage, instead of condemning it, loud and clear,
> they go into "victim mode" and worry about some imaginary "backlash".
> Like the bumper sticker: Muslims worried over backlash to tommorrow's
> terrorist attack.
I agree. Still, the US is currently defined as a melting pot, a glorious
mosaic, a place where someone is to be judged on their own merits.
Whether or not many Islamic institutions use this tactic, and I agree
they do, the US forfeits its entire reason d'etre if they treat the
threat as a general Islamic threat, casting suspicion on somehting like
1/6 of the human species.
...
>> It's like why Israel risks its own soldiers to reduce harm to enemy
>> civilians. Because if we have to sacrifice our Jewish character to
>> survive, is it worth the country's survival? Is there a value to having a
>> Jewish state in which we do not aspire to being "compassionate, bashful,
>> and engaging in supporting acts of kindness"? (The three traits tr. Yavams
>> says are "signs of this nation".)
> Micha, I have no argument with your ideas. I just don't think they
> are a reflection of what's actually happening. IOW, you're falling
> for Muslim Public Relations.
And I think you're hypercorrecting to the point of erring to the other
extreme rather than finding M's middah haemtzais (middle measure; what
we generally call "the Golden Mean").
fla...@verizon.net
On 10-Nov-2009, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
> I am very glad to hear all this Don, thanks for telling me. Perhaps
> being closer to Europe that to USA and perhaps the fact that I feel
> personally afraid of my Muslim neighbors, I am forgetting the basic
> goodness of Americans.
I think that most American Muslims *have* to be different
from those in other countries, simply *because* they're here.
We're a freer society how many peopole, having freedom,
ever want to give that up & go live some way else?
Muslim Americans obviously look around & say, "Hey,
here I am free to be Muslim - & also free not to be so strict
in my observances. Let's not mess this up, okay?"
Susan
Micha Berger
> No, he's not. WADR, Moshe, Micha and I live in the USA, and we see
> with our own eyes what's going on. Facts on the ground, there is and
Both effects are true.
While there is a real backlash, there is also PC covering up of real
issues. Such as the sudden disappearance of any pictures of the partying
among PA in Paterson NJ on 9/11.
And this carries with it a real threat. I ride the NJ Transit 190 bus
into Manhattan to go to work. A bus line that begins in "Little Jericho",
as I like to nickname south Paterson. A bus that travels through the
Lincoln Tunnel -- and has never in my experience been boarded for a
suspicious items check. Because that would be racial profiling.
The US is a large country. Responses don't occur in lockstep.
sheldonlg
> chsw <chsw...@yahoo.com> writes:
>> Fattush wrote:
>>
>>> In light of the tragedy at Fort Hood, should the US military (and
>>> Israel) worry about a fifth column in its midst?
>>>
>>> http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/nidal-malik-hasan-wanted-army-family/story?id=9008184
>> There is a list of 65 known jihad attacks in the past 37 years at
>> the end of this article from Atlas Shrugs blog:
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/yeq2wsd
>
> Another point of that article, was that the Head of Homeland Security
> Janet Napolitano is worried that "Muslim Americans Could Be Victims".
>
> As that article goes on to demonstrate, there was exactly _one_
> killing of a Muslim after 9/11. That was done by a white
> supremicist who was sentenced to death. OTOH there have been over
> six _thousand_ Americans killed by Muslims, So _who_ should the head
> of Homeland Security be worried about?
>
Cite? (for the numbers, that is).
You are saying that AFTER 9/11 there have been 6,000 Americans killed by
Muslims -- and you are implying that this is because of the radical
Muslim ideology and not just happened to be Muslims, while there has
been only ONE Muslim killed in the US because he was a Muslim -- and in
eight years!
Why do I find those numbers almost impossible to believe?
cindys
Which is exactly what a lot of Jews said when they emigrated to the
USA at the turn of the century. As one of my friends (and an
occasional contributor to SCJM) put it: "They were so happy to be out
of the shtetl. They couldn't wait to run away."
In truth, some of us tend to glamorize the shtetl. We see the shtetl
through the eyes of Shalom Aleichem with Tevye the Dairyman, and the
Fiddler on the Roof, and all the quaint little characters that made
the shtetl life so colorful.
In reality, the shtetl was muddy and dirty, and the people were poor
and hungry. People worked really, really hard and were afraid for
their lives all the time. The Jews could only live in certain places,
what little land we had was taken away from us by the government and
given to the Russian peasants, and there was very little education.
And that's just for starters.
Who wouldn't want to embrace America?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
sheldonlg
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> As that article goes on to demonstrate, there was exactly _one_
>> killing of a Muslim after 9/11. That was done by a white
>> supremicist who was sentenced to death. OTOH there have been over
>> six _thousand_ Americans killed by Muslims, So _who_ should the head
>> of Homeland Security be worried about?
>
> Both. If nothing else, a spate of killing of Moslems for the acts of other
> Moslems would rob the US of its entire self-definition. To paraphrase
> the physicist Richard Feynman, "It has nothing to do with defending our
> country, except to make it worth defending." (He said it in testimony to
> the Senate, explaining why Dept of Defense money should be allocated to
> buiding FermiLab. I think the line is even more appropriately used here.)
>
> It's like why Israel risks its own soldiers to reduce harm to enemy
> civilians. Because if we have to sacrifice our Jewish character to
> survive, is it worth the country's survival? Is there a value to having a
> Jewish state in which we do not aspire to being "compassionate, bashful,
> and engaging in supporting acts of kindness"? (The three traits tr. Yavams
> says are "signs of this nation".)
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
Well said, Micha.
sheldonlg
No, Moshe, he is "falling for" the "Bill of Rights".
sheldonlg
Only because our sensibilities as a people have been heightened to where
such harassment is no longer accepted and par for the course. I see
that as a positive.
sheldonlg
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> writes:
>>> For what it's worth, local Muslim groups have condemned the attack, and
>>> at least one group local to Fort Hood has been raising money to help the
>>> victims. It must all be PR.
>> I am very glad to hear all this Don, thanks for telling me. Perhaps
>> being closer to Europe that to USA and perhaps the fact that I feel
>> personally afraid of my Muslim neighbors, I am forgetting the basic
>> goodness of Americans.
>>
> In a similar position, I'd likely be the same way. In the US, we're
> sort of victims of our own values. Absent overt threats from specific
> people, it's a violation of American values to pursue possible threats
> for fear of persecution. This is one of the problems many people had
> with the previous administration.
Yup. Like the Un-Patriot Act.
sheldonlg
(1 + sqrt(5))/2 approx eq 1.6180339887
DoD
<mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:2009Nov1...@mm.huji.ac.il...
Yeah, there were these huge riots last month in San Antonio, Sacramento,
St. Louis, and New Orleans. Up in Dearborn there was tremendous violence
towards
these people.... These people do nothing wrong ever and deserve our utmost
sympathy.
:::::rolls eyes::::::
Give me a break.....
David
Fiona Abrahami
"Don Levey" <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote
> Keep in mind that if all 1.2 billion Muslims in the world were intent on
> taking it over, it would have already happened. Perhaps the fact that
> it hasn't means something.
Yes, perhaps it means the 2.1 billion Christians, 1.1 billions Athiest and
everyone else are not as weak as the Muslims would wish. You imply that you
think if the Muslims will it they would get their way and everyone would
just give in to them? Why would you believe that? Don't you believe in
standing up for your right to freedom of conscience, or do you believe that
Muslim violence works?
Fiona
Don Levey
I believe that if 1.2 billion Muslims were all interested in taking over
the world, the rest of us wouldn't be able to stop them. Stand up or
not, I don't think there would be enough of us on that end to be
effective. Not to mention that many non-Muslims would view their
interests differently, and may choose to align with rather than against
them.
I believe, in short, that while Islam may contain such elements, and
there may indeed be a significant percentage of Muslims who follow such
dictates, it is not enough of a proportion to make world conquest
useful, let alone certain.
Amitai
>
Otherwise known as -2 cos 144 deg.
Amitai
> - Show quoted text -
fla...@verizon.net
If the non-Muslims were that weak, the Muslims so inclined to
bully everyone would take over - absolutely. And I am the first
to say that a disproportionate numner of them are (looking at
worldwide conflicts). But if ALL the Muslims were so inclined,
the world would be in a FAR WORSE state than it is, no matter
how strong the non-Muslims are.
Susan
Fiona Abrahami
"Don Levey" <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote
> Fiona Abrahami wrote:
>> "Don Levey" <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote
>>
>>> Keep in mind that if all 1.2 billion Muslims in the world were intent on
>>> taking it over, it would have already happened. Perhaps the fact that
>>> it hasn't means something.
>>
>> Yes, perhaps it means the 2.1 billion Christians, 1.1 billions Athiest
>> and
>> everyone else are not as weak as the Muslims would wish. You imply that
>> you
>> think if the Muslims will it they would get their way and everyone would
>> just give in to them? Why would you believe that? Don't you believe in
>> standing up for your right to freedom of conscience, or do you believe
>> that
>> Muslim violence works?
>
> I believe that if 1.2 billion Muslims were all interested in taking over
> the world, the rest of us wouldn't be able to stop them.
Why? What can 1 billion Muslims do, that 6 billion non-Muslims can't do back
in greater numbers.
Fiona
cindys
SNIP
>
> Yeah, there were these huge riots last month in San Antonio, Sacramento,
> St. Louis, and New Orleans. Up in Dearborn there was tremendous violence
> towards
> these people.... These people do nothing wrong ever and deserve our utmost
> sympathy.
>
> :::::rolls eyes::::::
>
> Give me a break.....
Again, by "anti-Muslim backlash," I doubt that anyone is worried about
the potential for anti-Muslim riots, just smaller instances of
harassment, bullying, vandalism, isolated assaults, maybe some murders
(as followed 9/11), and just because there are some radical Muslims
living in the USA does not mean that the majority of American Muslims
(who are not radical and haven't done anything wrong) deserve to be
bullied and harassed and are not entitled to our sympathy. Unless, of
course, you think collective punishment is appropriate?
I think the bigger concern is how Muslim-American servicemen will be
treated by their non-Muslim counterparts. The Muslim servicemen were
already being harassed, and this Ft. Hood incident can't help but lead
to additional harassment.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
sheldonlg
....or the limit of the ration of two successive terms in a Fibonacci
sequence.
Micha Berger
>> (1 + sqrt(5))/2 ￜapprox eq ￜ 1.6180339887- Hide quoted text -
> Otherwise known as -2 cos 144 deg.
Phi is the Golden Ratio. The Golden Mean is the centerpiece of Nicomachean
Ethics -- the mean between excess and deficiency.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
Don Levey
them, so using that number isn't really accurate, is it?
sheldonlg
That reminds me of an old joke of China threatening to go to war with
the West. They say, "the first day we'll give you 100,000 prisoners.
The second day we'll give you 200,000 prisoners. The third day we'll
give you 300,000 prisoners. We'll on doing that until you finally
surrender".
Fiona Abrahami
Referring to the potential numbers of non-Muslims who could stop them is
just as accurate as referring to the potential number of Muslims who could
force their point. It is by no means a foregone conclusion that if all 1.2
billion Muslims asserted the Islamic imperative to make Jihad they would
succeed... bullies don't always win.
(Oh, and the population of Earth is about 7 billion now and increasing.)
Fiona
Abe Kohen
Which is why Jews flew airplanes into the World Trade Center towers?
Which is why a Jew killed 13 and injured scores last week in Texas?
Which is why John Israel, the DC sniper, was executed tonight at around 9pm?
These peace loving wild Jews?
We are all the same!
----
Abe
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:39426666-570b-4ce4...@p8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
Abe Kohen
"Don Levey" <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote in message
news:hdbs3b$844$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>
> Moshe, it's not imaginary. As Cindy posted, there was a large backlash
> against Moslems after the 2001 attacks that is still being felt today.
> It would be just as accurate to talk about some "imaginary backlash"
> after Madoff - when we expressed concern here.
Where is this Muslim backlash? I don't see it in NYC.
Abe
Abe Kohen
killed? How thoughtless of them to do it to Muslim serviceman.
I will not lose a second of sleep worrying about the "poor" muslim
servicemen.
Abe
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:942e1c7f-e2d8-48a1...@j24g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
Abe Kohen
Leader will do a rat's ass about it. Stop the settlements! That will solve
all the problems. Gee, didn't Sirhan Sarhan kill Bobby Kennedy before there
were official settlements?
Abe
"Amitai" <chr...@techunix.technion.ac.il> wrote in message
news:7a752003-7c19-47e7...@15g2000yqy.googlegroups.com...
From today's New York Times
U.S. Knew of Fort Hood Suspect�s Tie to Radical Cleric
WASHINGTON � Intelligence agencies intercepted communications last
year and this year between the military psychiatrist accused of
shooting to death 13 people at Fort Hood, Tex., and a radical cleric
in Yemen known for his incendiary anti-American teachings.
Read the full story at
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/10/us/10inquire.html?hp
The fifth column clearly exists, but its existence is being
deliberately ignored. IMO this is criminal negligence.
> chsw
Abe Kohen
NY Times and we all know they print "all the news that's fit to print."
Incidents like Ft. Hood make them afraid? Well whoop dee do! What do you
think incidents like Ft Hood and the WTC make the rest of us feel?
Misguided liberalism.
-----
Abe
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:29ffaf3a-b428-44ab...@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
No, he's not. WADR, Moshe, Micha and I live in the USA, and we see
with our own eyes what's going on. Facts on the ground, there is and
has been a huge backlash against Muslims in the USA, the bulk of whom
are just regular people trying to live their lives, go to work every
day, raise their kids, mow their lawns, etc and are not associating
with radical Muslim clerics. And incidents like the one at Ft. Hood
make them afraid. Muslims living in America are already generally
regarded with suspicion, targeted, singled out, often harassed in
subtle ways. Just because there hasn't been a massive anti-Muslim
pogrom doesn't mean there isn't any backlash.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Abe Kohen
<fla...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:hdc0ji$f65$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> Hear, hear!
> (Here, here?)
The source is our Tanach. "Va-tik-ra isha ha-cha-ma min ha-ir: shim-oo
shim-oo!"
Hence: Hear, hear!
Later adopted by Shakespeare.
Best,
Abe
cindys
> Gee, blame it on the victims. Couldn't they prevent themselves from getting
> killed? How thoughtless of them to do it to Muslim serviceman.
"Blame the victims?" What in God's name are you talking about?
>
> I will not lose a second of sleep worrying about the "poor" muslim
> servicemen.
So, IOW, you think it's perfectly justified for non-Muslim servicemen
to harass and haze and bully the vast majority of Muslim servicemen
who didn't shoot anyone, who aren't associating with radical clerics,
who are just doing their jobs to defend the USA ? Is that because you
believe in collective punishment? I assume therefore that you agree
that innocent people should suffer for the sins of others? Just as
you agree that God allowed innocent people to die in the Holocaust as
collective punishment for the sins of the others.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
>
> Abe
>
> "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
Harry Weiss
> On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 18:06:45 +0000 (UTC), lee <scho...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >On 9 Nov, 05:35, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> >> On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 16:58:32 +0000 (UTC), chsw <chsw10...@yahoo.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> >Fattush wrote:
> >> >> On Nov 6, 1:15 pm, "DoD" <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>> "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote in message
> >>
> >> >>>news:hd1j3i$7bj$4...@harrier.steinthal.us...
> >>
> >> >>>> Fattush <fattuc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>> In light of the tragedy at Fort Hood, should the US military (and
> >> >>>>> Israel) worry about a fifth column ?in its midst?
> >> >>>>>http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/nidal-malik-hasan-wanted-army-famil...
> >> >>>> Are we in a position to accuse others of dual loyalty?
> >> >>> I never heard of any Jews fragging their fellow US armed service members..
> >> >>> Do you have any
> >> >>> examples of such? This is not this first time Muslims have done this.
> >>
> >> >>> David
> >>
> >> >> That was my exact reaction too.
> >>
> >> >> It is unfortunate that this Muslim fellow had ugly remarks thrown his
> >> >> way . . . . but that is no excuse to kill or hurt other people. ?I
> >> >> would guess his loyalties were to his brother Muslims and he did not
> >> >> want to be sent overseas to engage them in comb at.
> >>
> >> >Maj. Nidal alleged that in conversations with his family, his
> >> >family members maintain. ?His colleaugues at his previous station
> >> >and at medical school have said that Nidal went out of his way to
> >> >argue about Islam and about the wars in Iraq ?, Afghanistan, and
> >> >about the war on terror in general as being wars against Islam.
> >>
> >> >chsw
> >>
> >> He was described as coming from Jordan in first day reports. ?A couple
> >> days later NPR described him as a Palestinian. ?(Meaning I'm sure, a
> >> Jordanian Palestinian, but still another Palestinian like Sirhan
> >> Sirhan.) ?
> >>
> >> He is also quoted as saying roughly his loyalty was to Islam and not
> >> America.
> >>
> >> If we were already in Iraq when he was in medical school, why would he
> >> join the army when it's troops were in Iraq and Afghanistan if he was
> >> against the wars there. ?I'm not doubting you. I'm asking why anyone
> >> would do that.
> >> --
> >
> >Perhaps by some strange metamorphosis he became more religious or
> >political over time. Apparently some people do change their positions/
> >opinions over the course of their lifetimes.
> Apparently that's not it. He was like this in medical school too, we
> hear today and maybe I heard it before I posted. There is no draft,
> even of doctors. He had to enlist.
> Well I don't think there is, but there might be some program where
> someone can enlist before finishing medical school, maybe get part of
> it paid for. LIke I say, I don't think there is. I've never heard of
> that since the draft ended. (My brother enlisted before his residency
> started, in return for being allowed to finish his residency before
> joining the active army, but that was when there was a draft.)
> --
There is a military medical school where he went. The US Government put
him through medical school.
> Meir
> "The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
cindys
> WADR so do I. Where is the backlash? Don't see it on TV. Don't see it in the
> NY Times and we all know they print "all the news that's fit to print."
>
> Incidents like Ft. Hood make them afraid? Well whoop dee do! What do you
> think incidents like Ft Hood and the WTC make the rest of us feel?
>
> Misguided liberalism.
Oh, yes, everybody knows I am the great Muslim apologist, and I see
you have jumped on a number of my posts to try to paint me this way
and portray my words this way. How horrible of me that I don't think
revenge should be taken on the innocent for the actions of the guilty.
But please, don't let me stop your fun. Please go ahead and spin my
words and pretend that I suggested the Ft. Hood shooter was justified
in killing all those people because they were harassing him. And when
you tire of that, you can paint me as the great, liberal Muslim
defender. Or maybe all of this is just a grudge because I didn't agree
that Sonia Sotomayer was an antisemite or that "Barak Hussein Obama"
was a closet Muslim.
This is another reason why I left SCJM. I got sick and tired of all
the gratuitous viciousness. I got tired of wasting hours of my time
defending myself all the time. I won't do it again. If it makes you
happy to endorse collective punishment of the Muslims, then have at
it, but don't get all bent out of shape the next time somebody talks
about collective punishment of the Jews.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
9ffaf3a-b428-44ab...@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>
> No, he's not. WADR, Moshe, Micha and I live in the USA, and we see
> with our own eyes what's going on. Facts on the ground, there is and
> has been a huge backlash against Muslims in the USA, the bulk of whom
> >
> -----
> Abe
>
> "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
>
> news:2are just regular people trying to live their lives, go to work every
DoD
> On Nov 10, 12:07 pm, "DoD" <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> SNIP
>
> > Yeah, there were these huge riots last month in San Antonio, Sacramento,
> > St. Louis, and New Orleans. Up in Dearborn there was tremendous violence
> > towards
> > these people.... These people do nothing wrong ever and deserve our utmost
> > sympathy.
>
> > :::::rolls eyes::::::
>
> > Give me a break.....
>
> ------------
> Again, by "anti-Muslim backlash," I doubt that anyone is worried about
> the potential for anti-Muslim riots, just smaller instances of
> harassment, bullying, vandalism, isolated assaults, maybe some murders
> (as followed 9/11), and just because there are some radical Muslims
> living in the USA does not mean that the majority of American Muslims
> (who are not radical and haven't done anything wrong) deserve to be
> bullied and harassed and are not entitled to our sympathy. Unless, of
> course, you think collective punishment is appropriate?
Who said I did? First of all, what I find funny is that on ARI a
Muslim, 1MAN4ALL
joked after the Sikh incidents, that the reason why god made Sikhs was
to help
keep Muslims safe, or something cruddy like that.
Second, I don't believe in collective punishments, but I don't for a
SECOND believe that
is REMOTELY the case here. How many Jews get harrassed? How many
blacks? How many
WHITES when in a minority situation gets harrassed? Plenty. Nobody is
safe from harrassment
but everyone is going to tip toe around the pertinent facts at
hand.... Harrassment? How in the world did
this clown get promoted after the b.s. he pulled? Wanting to meet with
al-qaeda among other things?
There is a list, but I don't feel like typing it all out, so if anyone
here is interested and for facts that don't
come from the lamestream media, which clearly have been blaming the
victims instead of the perpetrator of these
horrific killings.... Here is LTC Peters.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVkP50Azyb8
Yep, protected species....And after all that stuff he did.....
AMAZING..... Cry me a river.
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/11/10/quotes-of-the-day-193/
> I think the bigger concern is how Muslim-American servicemen will be
> treated by their non-Muslim counterparts. The Muslim servicemen were
> already being harassed, and this Ft. Hood incident can't help but lead
> to additional harassment.
Given that this isn't the first time that Muslims have fragged fellow
service members,
it won't surprise me. But I won't loose much sleep.... Everyone gets
harrassed in the military..
Why should they be different especially after all this?
David
DoD
> On Nov 10, 9:57 pm, "Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote:>
> This is another reason why I left SCJM. I got sick and tired of all
> the gratuitous viciousness. I got tired of wasting hours of my time
> defending myself all the time
This is what I don't get..... People leave this newsgroup because of
what other
people write? If everyone left a newsgroup because of what people
write, then
why have a newsgroup? Why have a news group if everyone agrees? I have
3 or 4 people
in this group on my killfile, not because
what they write bothers me, nobody has that power over me.... I kf
certain people because
they are the people that would most likely get me to go way off topic
time and again and
flirt with being mean spirited thereby putting my auto mod in
jeapordy..... Outside this group
I would argue any of my opinions with anyone.....
David
fla...@verizon.net
BRAVO!
Susan (who was being a little pun-ny above...)
cindys
> On Nov 10, 9:53 pm, cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 10, 9:57 pm, "Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote:>
> > This is another reason why I left SCJM. I got sick and tired of all
> > the gratuitous viciousness. I got tired of wasting hours of my time
> > defending myself all the time
>
> This is what I don't get..... People leave this newsgroup because of
> what other
> people write?
Not because I disagree with someone or because someone disagrees with
me but because someone (not you) was apparently so offended when I
didn't see things his way (on several occasions) that he nursed a
grudge and then took his opportunity to put me on the defensive
regarding something I didn't say and didn't imply. (When did you stop
beating your wife?) And when that happens, I get aggravated and feel
compelled to take the time to defend myself rather than doing
something constructive with my time (like earning money at my real-
life job).
Participation in SCJM is supposed to be interesting and/or enjoyable,
but when it becomes a place where someone is hassling you, it ceases
to be interesting or enjoyable. It's one thing to defend my opinions
or positions. It's another thing to defend myself. And so, I walk
away.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
> On Nov 10, 12:34 pm, cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 10, 12:07 pm, "DoD" <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > SNIP
>
> > > Yeah, there were these huge riots last month in San Antonio, Sacramento,
> > > St. Louis, and New Orleans. Up in Dearborn there was tremendous violence
> > > towards
> > > these people.... These people do nothing wrong ever and deserve our utmost
> > > sympathy.
>
> > > :::::rolls eyes::::::
>
> > > Give me a break.....
>
> > ------------
> > Again, by "anti-Muslim backlash," I doubt that anyone is worried about
> > the potential for anti-Muslim riots, just smaller instances of
> > harassment, bullying, vandalism, isolated assaults, maybe some murders
> > (as followed 9/11), and just because there are some radical Muslims
> > living in the USA does not mean that the majority of American Muslims
> > (who are not radical and haven't done anything wrong) deserve to be
> > bullied and harassed and are not entitled to our sympathy. Unless, of
> > course, you think collective punishment is appropriate?
>
> Who said I did?
Based on what you'd written, I took your meaning to be that because of
the behavior of the radical Muslims, all Muslims were by extension
guilty, ["These people do nothing wrong ever and deserve our utmost
sympathy" ::::rolls eyes ::::]
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
DoD
> On Nov 10, 11:26 pm, DoD <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> -----
> Based on what you'd written, I took your meaning to be that because of
> the behavior of the radical Muslims, all Muslims were by extension
> guilty, ["These people do nothing wrong ever and deserve our utmost
> sympathy" ::::rolls eyes ::::]
Absolutely not. I find it horrific when anyone is wrongfully abused. I
think bullying
should be treated as a crime up there with any felony....But the fact
of the matter is
that after all the flags this guy was giving out, a hand still reached
down the ladder and
helped pull him up...You can't bash the Army in this instance, except
that they
were way too p.c. and ignored *everything*. If this guy was a person
that was Joe
Soldier and people harrassed him over what others get from time to
time... (I won't
discuss some of the things that I went through, worse than what this
murderer went through)
than I would be inclined to agree, we have at least a minor breech of
justice... But
this ain't even close and if we still can't nail down this problem...
Then we as a society is
doomed to fail... I have GREATER things to worry about than the
survival of Israel.
David
DoD
> On Nov 10, 11:36 pm, DoD <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 10, 9:53 pm, cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 10, 9:57 pm, "Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote:>
> > > This is another reason why I left SCJM. I got sick and tired of all
> > > the gratuitous viciousness. I got tired of wasting hours of my time
> > > defending myself all the time
>
> > This is what I don't get..... People leave this newsgroup because of
> > what other
> > people write?
>
> Not because I disagree with someone or because someone disagrees with
> me but because someone (not you) was apparently so offended when I
> didn't see things his way (on several occasions) that he nursed a
> grudge and then took his opportunity to put me on the defensive
> regarding something I didn't say and didn't imply. (When did you stop
> beating your wife?) And when that happens, I get aggravated and feel
> compelled to take the time to defend myself rather than doing
> something constructive with my time (like earning money at my real-
> life job).
I only did that once when someone lied about me and my neice.... That
person
was/is sitll in kf... I can't remember how I came across it... I can
only think of one time
where someone attacked you about your family.... that person is also
in my killfile and I
don't remember how I saw that comment but I remember you didn't
respond to that....So
I just assumed you saw it for what it was, a mosquito trying to get a
piece you and you
promptly flicked it off.... IOW you obviously know you don't have to
pay attention to
everyone.....If I left this group because I disagree with posters
political views, there
would be lots of things I would miss out on. You might not, because,
maybe your Rabbi
is the shizz nizzle and can compete with the commentary on this
group... I am stuck with a
Priest who forces me to perform eyelid inspection every Sunday...
There is a lot of
good stuff here..IMO...
> Participation in SCJM is supposed to be interesting and/or enjoyable,
> but when it becomes a place where someone is hassling you, it ceases
> to be interesting or enjoyable. It's one thing to defend my opinions
> or positions. It's another thing to defend myself. And so, I walk
> away.
Defending your opinions is kinda defending yourself, no? To me, if I
found someone else is
ridiculous, which I do from time to time, it is easy to walk away
from....(ignore) that person and
I can do it with a smile on my face...
You are pretty nifty person... You should do the same...
David
cindys
> On Nov 10, 11:31 pm, cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 10, 11:26 pm, DoD <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > -----
> > Based on what you'd written, I took your meaning to be that because of
> > the behavior of the radical Muslims, all Muslims were by extension
> > guilty, ["These people do nothing wrong ever and deserve our utmost
> > sympathy" ::::rolls eyes ::::]
>
> Absolutely not. I find it horrific when anyone is wrongfully abused. I
> think bullying
> should be treated as a crime up there with any felony....But the fact
> of the matter is
> that after all the flags this guy was giving out, a hand still reached
> down the ladder and
> helped pull him up...You can't bash the Army in this instance, except
> that they
> were way too p.c. and ignored *everything*.
I wasn't blaming the Army. I was saying that as a result of this
incident (the Muslim guy going nuts and shooting people), the result
was going to be increased prejudice and harassment of other Muslim
servicemen (the majority of whom aren't going nuts and aren't killing
anybody and are just trying to be good soldiers). And the reaction
from a few quarters on SCJM seemed to be "Who cares?" And my point was
that we should care, if not from the perspective of not wanting to see
innocent people harassed for the crimes of others, then from the
perspective that soldiers need to depend on their comrades to watch
their backs in the battlefield, and it's kind of hard to do so
effectively when the soldiers in a unit don't trust each other. It
leads to US servicemen being killed [in battle].
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
Thanks, David.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
DoD
I just have two things in general to ask...(not just too you..) (and I
really am just
thinking out loud here, IOW, what is coming through my stupid noggin)
1. What is the one group of people that Israel doesn't ask to serve in
her military and why?
and is that policy sensible? Why or why not?
2. If you were a nurse with the 101st when that chaplin threw that
grenade and you got transfered
later in your career to the 4th ID .... And you worked around
Hasan...Do you think you would be suspicious
of this man?
I have been in battle. I can tell you this much... As a soldier, I
would be more comfortable serving with a squad of
men that considered me a lilly white cracker, but we had a commen
nemesis, than with a couple of people that
have even *possible* sympathies for the other side.
David
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> writes:
>>>
>>> For what it's worth, local Muslim groups have condemned the
>>> attack, and at least one group local to Fort Hood has been
>>> raising money to help the victims. It must all be PR.
>>
>> I am very glad to hear all this Don, thanks for telling me. Perhaps
>> being closer to Europe that to USA and perhaps the fact that I feel
>> personally afraid of my Muslim neighbors, I am forgetting the basic
>> goodness of Americans.
>>
> sort of victims of our own values. Absent overt threats from specific
> people, it's a violation of American values to pursue possible threats
> for fear of persecution. This is one of the problems many people had
> with the previous administration.
Hmm, well _this_ administration seems to be 180 degrees in the
opposite direction. Time will tell...
--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> --------------
> Just this past week, I was reading a story about antisemitism on
> campus. Apparently, the Hillel sukkah at one of the universities in
> California had been vandalized.
How can that be? Dan Kimmel was always telling us there is _no_
antisemitism on college campuses. </sarcasm>
> The way Hillel handled the situation
> was (rather than cower in fear) to publicize the incident for the
> entire campus to know about it. (I wish I could remember where I read
> this story - I think it was in _Time_ or _Newsweek_). The net result
> was that a lot of students (including mostly non-Jewish students)
> volunteered to sleep in the sukkah and/or pitch a tent outside of it
> to guard it from vandals. One non-Jewish girl said she had nearly
> frozen her tushy off sleeping in a tent outside the sukkah, but as a
> Christian, she felt it was important for her to defend other people's
> religions (or something like that).
>
> The University Interfaith Council (which includes all campus religious
> organizations) publicly condemned the vandalism. In particular, the
> Muslim Student Union condemned the vandalism, and the president of
> that organization made a point of saying that it was unacceptable to
> attack anybody's religion in this manner.
>
> In the end, the entire student body was invited to shabbos dinner in
> the sukkah and about 60 students (of various faiths) attended. I don't
> remember if I got all the details right, but if someone else read the
> story, and I messed up the details, feel free to correct me.
I don't think the details are that important. Thanks Cindy for
telling us about it.
DoD
> --------------
> Thanks, David.
No sweat in stating the obvious.... ;o)
David
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>>mi...@aishdas.org (Micha Berger) writes:
>
>>> Both. If nothing else, a spate of killing of Moslems for the acts of other
>>> Moslems would rob the US of its entire self-definition. To paraphrase
>>> the physicist Richard Feynman, "It has nothing to do with defending our
>>> country, except to make it worth defending." (He said it in testimony to
>>> the Senate, explaining why Dept of Defense money should be allocated to
>>> buiding FermiLab. I think the line is even more appropriately used here.)
>>
>> Oy Micha. As I posted in another thread, this is a Muslim _tactic_.
>> After every Muslim rampage, instead of condemning it, loud and clear,
>> they go into "victim mode" and worry about some imaginary "backlash".
>> Like the bumper sticker: Muslims worried over backlash to tommorrow's
>> terrorist attack.
>
> I agree. Still, the US is currently defined as a melting pot, a glorious
> mosaic, a place where someone is to be judged on their own merits.
>
> Whether or not many Islamic institutions use this tactic, and I agree
> they do, the US forfeits its entire reason d'etre if they treat the
> threat as a general Islamic threat, casting suspicion on somehting like
> 1/6 of the human species.
I don't know if the numbers matter that much. If 1/6 of the human
species thought the world were flat, should it carry any weight?
> ...
>>> It's like why Israel risks its own soldiers to reduce harm to enemy
>>> civilians. Because if we have to sacrifice our Jewish character to
>>> survive, is it worth the country's survival? Is there a value to having a
>>> Jewish state in which we do not aspire to being "compassionate, bashful,
>>> and engaging in supporting acts of kindness"? (The three traits tr. Yavams
>>> says are "signs of this nation".)
>
>> Micha, I have no argument with your ideas. I just don't think they
>> are a reflection of what's actually happening. IOW, you're falling
>> for Muslim Public Relations.
>
> And I think you're hypercorrecting to the point of erring to the
> other extreme rather than finding M's middah haemtzais (middle
> measure; what we generally call "the Golden Mean").
That's what's good about SCJM. We have one screwball at one end,
(falling off the end?) and another one at the other. Eventually
(hopefully?) they can get close to each other, and everybody
watching can benefit from the process!
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> chsw <chsw...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>> Fattush wrote:
>>>
>>>> In light of the tragedy at Fort Hood, should the US military (and
>>>>
>>>> http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/nidal-malik-hasan-wanted-army-family/story?id=9008184
>>> There is a list of 65 known jihad attacks in the past 37 years at
>>> the end of this article from Atlas Shrugs blog:
>>>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/yeq2wsd
>>
>> Another point of that article, was that the Head of Homeland Security
>> Janet Napolitano is worried that "Muslim Americans Could Be Victims".
>>
>> As that article goes on to demonstrate, there was exactly _one_
>> killing of a Muslim after 9/11. That was done by a white
>> supremicist who was sentenced to death. OTOH there have been over
>> six _thousand_ Americans killed by Muslims, So _who_ should the head
>> of Homeland Security be worried about?
>
> Cite? (for the numbers, that is).
The cite was given. I said "...point of THAT article...".
> You are saying that AFTER 9/11 there have been 6,000 Americans
> killed by Muslims --
No. Reading Comprehension 101; "There is a list of 65 known jihad
attacks in the past 37 years". 9/11 was much less than 37 years ago.
> and you are implying that this is because of the radical Muslim
> ideology
If it's a "jihad attack" then by definition it's because of the
radical Muslim ideology.
> and not just happened to be Muslims,
Again, if it's a "jihad attack" then by definition not "just
_happened_ to be Muslims".
> while there has been only ONE Muslim killed in the US because
> he was a Muslim -- and in eight years!
Well Don posted a cite of a Jewish woman who is demanding justice for
Muslim victims of terror attacks. Her number is somewhere between
3 and 8. Which is still a lot less than 6,000.
> Why do I find those numbers almost impossible to believe?
Because you're basically good and trusting?
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> flav...@verizon.net wrote:
>> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> > I am very glad to hear all this Don, thanks for telling me. Perhaps
>> > being closer to Europe that to USA and perhaps the fact that I feel
>> > personally afraid of my Muslim neighbors, I am forgetting the basic
>> > goodness of Americans.
>>
>> from those in other countries, simply *because* they're here.
>> ever want to give that up & go live some way else?
>> Muslim Americans obviously look around & say, "Hey,
>> here I am free to be Muslim - & also free not to be so strict
>> in my observances. Let's not mess this up, okay?"
> Which is exactly what a lot of Jews said when they emigrated to the
> USA at the turn of the century. As one of my friends (and an
> occasional contributor to SCJM) put it: "They were so happy to be out
> of the shtetl. They couldn't wait to run away."
>
> In truth, some of us tend to glamorize the shtetl. We see the shtetl
> through the eyes of Shalom Aleichem with Tevye the Dairyman, and the
> Fiddler on the Roof, and all the quaint little characters that made
> the shtetl life so colorful.
>
> In reality, the shtetl was muddy and dirty, and the people were poor
> and hungry. People worked really, really hard and were afraid for
> their lives all the time. The Jews could only live in certain places,
> what little land we had was taken away from us by the government and
> given to the Russian peasants, and there was very little education.
Up to that last line I was OK with you. But I suspect the education
level, while not on a par with USA was _much_ greater for the Jews
than their non-Jewish neighbors.
> And that's just for starters.
>
> Who wouldn't want to embrace America?
Was it necessary to "embrace" America to get those improvements?
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> "Don Levey" <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote
>
>> Keep in mind that if all 1.2 billion Muslims in the world were intent on
>> taking it over, it would have already happened. Perhaps the fact that
>> it hasn't means something.
>
> Yes, perhaps it means the 2.1 billion Christians, 1.1 billions Athiest and
> everyone else are not as weak as the Muslims would wish. You imply that you
> think if the Muslims will it they would get their way and everyone would
> just give in to them? Why would you believe that? Don't you believe in
> standing up for your right to freedom of conscience, or do you believe that
> Muslim violence works?
Maybe he's basing himself on what's happening in Europe. It seems
that not too many there are interested in standing up for their
freedom of conscience. Perhaps when they lose their freedom to drink
wine and beer thay will finally wake up.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> Fiona Abrahami wrote:
>> "Don Levey" <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote
>>
>>> Keep in mind that if all 1.2 billion Muslims in the world were intent on
>>> taking it over, it would have already happened. Perhaps the fact that
>>> it hasn't means something.
>>
>> Yes, perhaps it means the 2.1 billion Christians, 1.1 billions Athiest and
>> everyone else are not as weak as the Muslims would wish. You imply that you
>> think if the Muslims will it they would get their way and everyone would
>> just give in to them? Why would you believe that? Don't you believe in
>> standing up for your right to freedom of conscience, or do you believe that
>> Muslim violence works?
>
> the world, the rest of us wouldn't be able to stop them. Stand up or
> not, I don't think there would be enough of us on that end to be
> effective. Not to mention that many non-Muslims would view their
> interests differently, and may choose to align with rather than against
> them.
>
> I believe, in short, that while Islam may contain such elements, and
> there may indeed be a significant percentage of Muslims who follow such
> dictates, it is not enough of a proportion to make world conquest
> useful, let alone certain.
Umm this last sentence seems to negate what you said before. I
thought you were saying that if they wanted to, they couldn't be
stopped. Now you're saying it's not "certain". What's my mistake?
Amitai
[big snip|
... I have GREATER things to worry about than the
> survival of Israel.
>
Is it surprising if that I don't?
Amitai
> David
Abe Kohen
"Don Levey" <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote in message
news:hdbu2s$ljg$2...@news.eternal-september.org...
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> writes:
>>>
>>>>
>>> For what it's worth, local Muslim groups have condemned the attack, and
>>> at least one group local to Fort Hood has been raising money to help the
>>> victims. It must all be PR.
>>
>> being closer to Europe that to USA and perhaps the fact that I feel
>> personally afraid of my Muslim neighbors, I am forgetting the basic
>> goodness of Americans.
>>
> sort of victims of our own values. Absent overt threats from specific
> people, it's a violation of American values to pursue possible threats
> for fear of persecution. This is one of the problems many people had
> with the previous administration.
So Hassan was afraid of Bush and held back. But with Mr. Hussein 0 in charge
why not kill a few Americans on a military base in Texas.
Mr. Hussein 0 was quick to rush to judgment against a Cambridge, Mass cop,
but not against a fellow Muslim. Said we should hold off on judgement.
-----
Abe
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> Amitai <chr...@techunix.technion.ac.il> wrote:
>> sheldonlg <sheldo...@giganews.com> wrote:
>>> Micha Berger wrote:
>
>>>> And I think you're hypercorrecting to the point of erring to the
>>>> other extreme rather than finding M's middah haemtzais (middle
>>>> measure; what we generally call "the Golden Mean").
>
>
>> Otherwise known as -2 cos 144 deg.
>
> Phi is the Golden Ratio. The Golden Mean is the centerpiece of
> Nicomachean Ethics -- the mean between excess and deficiency.
To get some Jewish content to that first number. I find it a
source of amazement, that the number Phi is to be found so much
in "Nature". Who put it there?
I even found quite a large website, devoted to Phi all over the
universe: http://goldennumber.net/
BTW Shelly, it has your number right there in the banner.
Enjoy.
DoD
Well no... why do you ask? Do you think you should have
something more important to worry about?
David
cindys
snip
> I just have two things in general to ask...(not just too you..) (and I
> really am just
> thinking out loud here, IOW, what is coming through my stupid noggin)
>
> 1. What is the one group of people that Israel doesn't ask to serve in
> her military and why?
Not to make light of your question, but the first answer that came to
mind was "the chareidim." I think this means I've been on SCJM too
long....
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>> > This is another reason why I left SCJM. I got sick and tired of all
>> > the gratuitous viciousness. I got tired of wasting hours of my time
>> > defending myself all the time
>>
>> This is what I don't get..... People leave this newsgroup because of
>> what other people write?
>
> Not because I disagree with someone or because someone disagrees with
> me but because someone (not you) was apparently so offended when I
> didn't see things his way (on several occasions) that he nursed a
> grudge and then took his opportunity to put me on the defensive
> regarding something I didn't say and didn't imply. (When did you stop
> beating your wife?) And when that happens, I get aggravated and feel
> compelled to take the time to defend myself
_THAT_ is the problem. Why do you "feel compelled" to do _anything_????
> rather than doing something constructive with my time (like earning
> money at my real-life job).
>
> Participation in SCJM is supposed to be interesting and/or enjoyable,
> but when it becomes a place where someone is hassling you, it ceases
> to be interesting or enjoyable. It's one thing to defend my opinions
> or positions. It's another thing to defend myself. And so, I walk
> away.
And we all lose by that.
Amitai
We each have our priorities. I wonder how many other things you think
are GREATER. (Why not add a few exclamation marks while you are at
it?)
Amitai
> David
lee
> On Nov 11, 1:37 am, DoD <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> snip> I just have two things in general to ask...(not just too you..) (and I
> > really am just
> > thinking out loud here, IOW, what is coming through my stupid noggin)
>
> > 1. What is the one group of people that Israel doesn't ask to serve in
> > her military and why?
>
> -----
> Not to make light of your question, but the first answer that came to
> mind was "the chareidim." I think this means I've been on SCJM too
> long....
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
the IDF making up for the chareidim who dont
Fiona Abrahami
<mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote
> sheldonlg <shel...@giganews.com> writes:
>
>> and you are implying that this is because of the radical Muslim
>> ideology
>
> If it's a "jihad attack" then by definition it's because of the
> radical Muslim ideology.
That depends how you define radical: the Jihad imperative in Islam is only
radical from an outsiders point of view, within Islam jihad is actually a
mainstream opinion. That's why the now unfashionable 'fundamentalist' is a
better descriptive term than 'radical' or 'extremist' - radical implies a
fringe or outlying opinion, but fundamental implies a core belief, and like
it or not, jihad (whether by violence or stealth) is a basic principle of
Islam.
Fiona
Micha Berger
> cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>> Participation in SCJM is supposed to be interesting and/or enjoyable,
>> but when it becomes a place where someone is hassling you, it ceases
>> to be interesting or enjoyable. It's one thing to defend my opinions
>> or positions. It's another thing to defend myself. And so, I walk
>> away.
> And we all lose by that.
But who can argue the fact that Cindy finds herself in that position
with some regularity?
The question is whether this is some habit certain parties got into
when seeing her name on a post, whether there is something to how Cindy
herself replies that motivates them to do so to her and not to others
they disagree with, or some of both. Things can be corrected, rather
than just giving up.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
Fiona Abrahami
<mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote
> "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> writes:
>> "Don Levey" <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote
>>
>>> Keep in mind that if all 1.2 billion Muslims in the world were intent on
>>> taking it over, it would have already happened. Perhaps the fact that
>>> it hasn't means something.
>>
>> Yes, perhaps it means the 2.1 billion Christians, 1.1 billions Athiest
>> and
>> everyone else are not as weak as the Muslims would wish. You imply that
>> you
>> think if the Muslims will it they would get their way and everyone would
>> just give in to them? Why would you believe that? Don't you believe in
>> standing up for your right to freedom of conscience, or do you believe
>> that
>> Muslim violence works?
>
> Maybe he's basing himself on what's happening in Europe. It seems
> that not too many there are interested in standing up for their
> freedom of conscience. Perhaps when they lose their freedom to drink
> wine and beer thay will finally wake up.
Don is making a simple if/then hypothesis, I am merely pointing out that
there is an opposing if/then hypothesis which, number-wise at least,
suggests his if/then is by no means a foregone conclusion.
It is true that Muslims have made massive inroads in Europe, but don't
underestimate the European peoples, Islam has been helped by laws which tie
the hands of the people. People are neither blind to, nor apathetic about,
what is happening here, and they are growing more resentful by the day, not
just of the way Islam is changing the atmosphere and culture of Europe but
of the way the elites seemingly aid and abet it, and ignore how indigenous
identities and traditions are being eroded. The upshot is that ordinary
everyday people are being driven into the arms of racist and extreme
nationalist groups because their commonly held views are being ignored.
Ultimately, this will bring a far bigger backlash, aimed not just at the
Muslim, but also at the ruling indigenous elites too.
Fiona
Nick Cramer
> > > And I think you're hypercorrecting to the point of erring to the
> > > other extreme rather than finding M's middah haemtzais (middle
> > > measure; what we generally call "the Golden Mean").
> >
> >
> Otherwise known as -2 cos 144 deg.
And then, there is this, which I found fascinating, study:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2622758/
The Golden Mean, at work between your ears!
--
Nick, KI6VAV. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their
families: https://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/ Thank a Veteran!
Support Our Troops: http://anymarine.com/ You are not forgotten.
Thanks ! ! ~Semper Fi~ USMC 1365061
cindys
<fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote
>
>
>
> > "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> writes:
Yes.
>The upshot is that ordinary
> everyday people are being driven into the arms of racist and extreme
> nationalist groups because their commonly held views are being ignored.
Yes.
> Ultimately, this will bring a far bigger backlash, aimed not just at the
> Muslim, but also at the ruling indigenous elites too.
There is a British, Church-of-England woman on another newsgroup
(where I no longer participate). From years of reading her postings,
she seems very level-headed, nice, generally tolerant of other people
and their opinions. But when it comes to the subject of Muslims into
Britain -- Watch out! She feels extremely threatened.
She feels a new mosque is going up on every street corner every week.
She feels upset by the way the Muslim population dresses, upset that
the government schools are providing halal meat, upset that they don't
seem to want to assimilate into British society. She feels imposed
upon. She feels that traditional British society is falling by the
wayside in deference to Islam. She resents that the government seems
to be bending over backwards to accommodate the Muslim population.
OTOH, with respect to this woman's basic attitude toward Jews, she
sees Jews as being an integral part of the British population. But
when it comes to Muslims, she sees them as alien, the other, uprooting
and destroying the fabric of traditional British society. She
frequently expresses that the British government (or some other group)
should be focused on converting the Muslims to Christianity/Church of
England so that they can assimilate into British society rather than
destroying it (as they are now).
And on the basis of the manner in which she writes, I have the feeling
that this is what a lot of Brits are feeling - not just this
particular woman.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
Lee, my answer was a joke. The answer DoD was looking for was "the
Arabs."
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
snip
>
> > In reality, the shtetl was muddy and dirty, and the people were poor
> > and hungry. People worked really, really hard and were afraid for
> > their lives all the time. The Jews could only live in certain places,
> > what little land we had was taken away from us by the government and
> > given to the Russian peasants, and there was very little education.
>
> Up to that last line I was OK with you. But I suspect the education
> level, while not on a par with USA was _much_ greater for the Jews
> than their non-Jewish neighbors.
I don't know if the education for Jews was greater or lesser than for
their Russian neighbors, but it was still pitifully little education.
Not that the public school system was necessarily so great in turn-of-
the-century America. And education of children wasn't mandatory either
(at least not beyond a young age, if at all), and child labor was
rampant.
>
> > And that's just for starters.
>
> > Who wouldn't want to embrace America?
>
> Was it necessary to "embrace" America to get those improvements?
A lot of immigrants were eager to liberate themselves from anything
and everything that reminded them of "the old country," and despite
the commonly-held fantasy that everyone in the shtetl was running
around in a black hat and tzitzis, many of the shtetl Jews were not
religious and lived in the shtetl only because the czar wouldn't let
them live anywhere else. In America, they were free to go anywhere, do
anything, be anything. The sky was the limit.
Additionally, for many/most immigrants to America, the difference
between eating and starving often meant working on Saturday. Some of
them didn't care. Some of them cared but prioritized feeding their
families. Some of the more enterprising ones found jobs that didn't
necessitate their working on Saturday or started their own businesses.
But most of all, America was the Land of Opportunity, and the
immigrants wanted to experience everything that was America, and they
wanted to fit in with the secular world, and they didn't want to be
"the other." And I can understand that. That's exactly how my younger
son felt.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
lee
Go back about a hundred years, who might she have been writing about
then?
lee
Cindy I know it was, sorry I'm possibly getting a bit too involved in
these arguments
Don Levey
> On Nov 10, 9:53 pm, cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 10, 9:57 pm, "Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote:>
>
>> This is another reason why I left SCJM. I got sick and tired of all
>> the gratuitous viciousness. I got tired of wasting hours of my time
>> defending myself all the time
>
> This is what I don't get..... People leave this newsgroup because of
> what other
> write, then
> why have a newsgroup? Why have a news group if everyone agrees? I have
> 3 or 4 people
> in this group on my killfile, not because
> what they write bothers me, nobody has that power over me.... I kf
> certain people because
> they are the people that would most likely get me to go way off topic
> time and again and
> flirt with being mean spirited thereby putting my auto mod in
> jeapordy..... Outside this group
> I would argue any of my opinions with anyone.....
>
David, I disagree with many people here (including you, sometimes) about
many things. While not answering for Cindy, I'll say that the
disagreements themselves don't bother me, as long as the people involved
in the discussion treat each other with respect.
Unfortunately, that doesn't always happen. There are some people who
spew such vitriol that it becomes difficult to take them seriously.
Often it starts when they rail against third parties, whether it be
(political or religious) liberals or conservatives, the "evil" Muslims
or the oppressive Israelis, or whomever might be the target of the
moment. Anyone who chooses to make a point contrary to the one the
poster is making immediately gets branded as a sympathizer. There are
very few people in my kill file, most if not all of which don't post
here anymore, and all but one used that tactic. Reading their words
made me embarrassed to be associated with them, whether by mutual
membership in this newsgroup, in a political party, or by Judaism.
At one point, it got to the level where I felt I was being personally
attacked, and I chose to leave. It went from discomfort to pain, and
who needs that? As it is, some days I feel like I am searching through
the bargain bin, looking for the one item that I might make my own. And
on some of those days, I don't find it.
--
Don Levey, Framingam MA If knowledge is power,
(email address in header works) and power corrupts, then...
NOTE: Don't send mail to to sal...@the-leveys.us
GnuPG public key: http://www.the-leveys.us:6080/keys/don-dsakey.asc
Fiona Abrahami
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote
>
> OTOH, with respect to this woman's basic attitude toward Jews, she
> sees Jews as being an integral part of the British population. But
> when it comes to Muslims, she sees them as alien, the other, uprooting
> and destroying the fabric of traditional British society. She
> frequently expresses that the British government (or some other group)
> should be focused on converting the Muslims to Christianity/Church of
> England so that they can assimilate into British society rather than
> destroying it (as they are now).
>
> And on the basis of the manner in which she writes, I have the feeling
> that this is what a lot of Brits are feeling - not just this
> particular woman.
It's not just Britain, you will find this right across Europe - well in the
countries that have seen large influxes of Muslims anyway, places like
Poland don't have these issues, yet.
Fiona