Honor killing in USA?
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/11/02/20091102noor1102-CR.html
--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
cindys
decapitation in another nearby city (the victim did not survive). The
judges in the USA prosecute to the fullest extent of the law (i.e.
years and years in prison). I have posted in the past about our local
incident. Again, I can't cite the judge's exact words at the
sentencing but they were something to the effect that while he
understood "honor" killings occurred in other countries, this is the
USA, and we don't tolerate that sort of thing here.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
On Nov 5, 9:11 am, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
> I saw this item. Shelly, other USAns, is it really happening?
>
> http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/11/02/20091102noor1102-CR...
Evertjan.
> Yes, there was a stabbing in my city (the victim survived) and a
> decapitation in another nearby city (the victim did not survive). The
> judges in the USA prosecute to the fullest extent of the law (i.e.
> years and years in prison). I have posted in the past about our local
> incident. Again, I can't cite the judge's exact words at the
> sentencing but they were something to the effect that while he
> understood "honor" killings occurred in other countries, this is the
> USA, and we don't tolerate that sort of thing here.
Narrowminded but understanding Judge,
obviously didn't read any obscure Dutch or even Danish newspapers.
If occurrance matches toleration,
why are there so many murders overthere?
--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)
Don Levey
> cindys wrote on 05 nov 2009 in soc.culture.jewish.moderated:
>
>> Yes, there was a stabbing in my city (the victim survived) and a
>> decapitation in another nearby city (the victim did not survive). The
>> judges in the USA prosecute to the fullest extent of the law (i.e.
>> years and years in prison). I have posted in the past about our local
>> incident. Again, I can't cite the judge's exact words at the
>> sentencing but they were something to the effect that while he
>> understood "honor" killings occurred in other countries, this is the
>> USA, and we don't tolerate that sort of thing here.
>
>
such a concept as honor killings? I'm assuming that you're meaning the
bit about the obscure papers facetiously.
> If occurrence matches toleration,
> why are there so many murders over there?
>
There are relatively few honor killings over here. On the other hand,
there are countries where such things *are* tolerated, and it seems the
incidence of honor killings is proportionally much higher.
--
Don Levey, Framingam MA If knowledge is power,
(email address in header works) and power corrupts, then...
NOTE: Don't send mail to to sal...@the-leveys.us
GnuPG public key: http://www.the-leveys.us:6080/keys/don-dsakey.asc
cindys
> cindys wrote on 05 nov 2009 in soc.culture.jewish.moderated:
>
> > Yes, there was a stabbing in my city (the victim survived) and a
> > decapitation in another nearby city (the victim did not survive). The
> > judges in the USA prosecute to the fullest extent of the law (i.e.
> > years and years in prison). I have posted in the past about our local
> > incident. Again, I can't cite the judge's exact words at the
> > sentencing but they were something to the effect that while he
> > understood "honor" killings occurred in other countries, this is the
> > USA, and we don't tolerate that sort of thing here.
>
> Narrowminded but understanding Judge,
> obviously didn't read any obscure Dutch or even Danish newspapers.
In what way was the judge being "narrow-minded?" Because he thinks
it's unacceptable to murder your family members who become "too
Westernized?" In the case of the local murder, a brother stabbed his
sister more than 20 times because she and her friends had become too
"Westernized" and were planning a vacation in New York City. In the
other situation, a prominent physician decapitated his wife (for
reasons I'm not sure about). The latter situation was particularly
shocking, as he was apparently very well known and well respected.
>
> If occurrence matches toleration,
> why are there so many murders over there?
The judge was talking about not tolerating "honor" killings. In
certain other countries, "honor" killings are not recognized (or
barely recognized) as crimes, and the perpetrators are not arrested.
The reasons why the US has a generally high murder could probably fill
a book (and I have no doubt that a number of books have been written
on the subject). As such, a discussion of this topic would be beyond
the scope of SCJM (not to mention off topic).
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Evertjan.
> Evertjan. wrote:
>> cindys wrote on 05 nov 2009 in soc.culture.jewish.moderated:
>>
>>> Yes, there was a stabbing in my city (the victim survived) and a
>>> decapitation in another nearby city (the victim did not survive). The
>>> judges in the USA prosecute to the fullest extent of the law (i.e.
>>> years and years in prison). I have posted in the past about our local
>>> incident. Again, I can't cite the judge's exact words at the
>>> sentencing but they were something to the effect that while he
>>> understood "honor" killings occurred in other countries, this is the
>>> USA, and we don't tolerate that sort of thing here.
>>
>> Narrow-minded but understanding Judge,
>> obviously didn't read any obscure Dutch or even Danish newspapers.
>>
> Narrow-minded? Are you suggesting that he should be more welcoming of
> such a concept as honor killings?
No, I m not suggesting that. Narrow-minded in the sense that he vagely
had heard by hearsay ["understood"], and used thet hearsay in his
sentence. Often judges have an overrated idea of the effect of their
work. I do not envy them.
> I'm assuming that you're meaning the
> bit about the obscure papers facetiously.
Indeed, for the word "obscure", see the other thread. If he had read such
papers he would know that (t)his problem is the same in the two countries
I mentioned.
>> If occurrence matches toleration,
>> why are there so many murders over there?
I ment murder in general. Murder seems relatively immune to the harshness
of the sentence. Honour murder even more so.
> There are relatively few honor killings over here.
There are some here.
Why do you call that relatively few?
Relatively to what?
> On the other hand,
> there are countries where such things *are* tolerated, and it seems the
> incidence of honor killings is proportionally much higher.
That does not mean the higher incidence is because of lenient sentencing.
It could be that it is just a terrible part of the primitivity of some
local cultures. From over here the death sentence seems very primitive
and ineffective.
I do not think honour killings are effectively suppressed by harsh
sentencing, as the honour of those families surpasses the risk of long
enprisonment. That does not mean to be lenient, but the effect on other
killings will be minimal.
Often one of the brothers is chosen by the family to kill the offending
sister. This is very primitive behavour, pre-dating muslimmity, and
should be delt with in education and helping both the victim to be and
the killer to be to get out of family setting for years. That will have a
lasting effect on other cases far more than the sentencing level.
chsw
> I saw this item. Shelly, other USAns, is it really happening?
>
> http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/11/02/20091102noor1102-CR.html
>
Yes, they are increasing in number as well. Most notoriously,
the apparently very westernized CEO of BridgesTV cable channel (a
Muslim dawa venture based in upstate NY) beheaded his wife,
allegedly for not showing him proper deference and not wanting a
more traditional Muslim home.
chsw
Don Levey
> Don Levey wrote on 05 nov 2009 in soc.culture.jewish.moderated:
>
>> Evertjan. wrote:
>>> cindys wrote on 05 nov 2009 in soc.culture.jewish.moderated:
>>>
>>>> Yes, there was a stabbing in my city (the victim survived) and a
>>>> decapitation in another nearby city (the victim did not survive). The
>>>> judges in the USA prosecute to the fullest extent of the law (i.e.
>>>> years and years in prison). I have posted in the past about our local
>>>> incident. Again, I can't cite the judge's exact words at the
>>>> sentencing but they were something to the effect that while he
>>>> understood "honor" killings occurred in other countries, this is the
>>>> USA, and we don't tolerate that sort of thing here.
>>> Narrow-minded but understanding Judge,
>>> obviously didn't read any obscure Dutch or even Danish newspapers.
>>>
>> Narrow-minded? Are you suggesting that he should be more welcoming of
>> such a concept as honor killings?
>
> No, I m not suggesting that. Narrow-minded in the sense that he vagely
> had heard by hearsay ["understood"], and used thet hearsay in his
> sentence. Often judges have an overrated idea of the effect of their
> work. I do not envy them.
>
use in this instance, but I understand what you mean. I would say,
though, that I don't see an imperative for the judge to be familiar with
the events elsewhere in the performance of his job (but, for personal
development, I'd say it's a good idea). Whether it is common or rare in
other countries doesn't really have a bearing on the law in the host
country or its application in the court.
>> I'm assuming that you're meaning the
>> bit about the obscure papers facetiously.
>
> Indeed, for the word "obscure", see the other thread. If he had read such
> papers he would know that (t)his problem is the same in the two countries
> I mentioned.
>
OK.
>>> If occurrence matches toleration,
>>> why are there so many murders over there?
>
> I ment murder in general. Murder seems relatively immune to the harshness
> of the sentence. Honour murder even more so.
>
I'd be inclined to agree. What seems to influence the crimes is the
overall atmosphere of the society, not the harshness of the sentence. A
society which seems to condone murder, even when it is officially
punished harshly, would be more likely to spawn murderers in this view.
>> There are relatively few honor killings over here.
>
> There are some here.
> Why do you call that relatively few?
> Relatively to what?
>
Compared to "regular" murders, to be sure. We've got quite a few of
*those* here in the US. Given the atmosphere here, it is likely we'd
here of any honor killings that happen, and yet they still seem to be
reported only rarely. That suggests to me that it is still rare here.
>> On the other hand,
>> there are countries where such things *are* tolerated, and it seems the
>> incidence of honor killings is proportionally much higher.
>
> That does not mean the higher incidence is because of lenient sentencing.
> It could be that it is just a terrible part of the primitivity of some
> local cultures. From over here the death sentence seems very primitive
> and ineffective.
>
Again, I would agree. Personally, I do not support the death penalty.
I would focus more upon what you mention with regard to a primitive
(local) culture as a whole rather than one particular practice.
> I do not think honour killings are effectively suppressed by harsh
> sentencing, as the honour of those families surpasses the risk of long
> enprisonment. That does not mean to be lenient, but the effect on other
> killings will be minimal.
>
What's more, the rest of the culture seems to condone such killing even
when punished harshly, which encourages the continued practice.
> Often one of the brothers is chosen by the family to kill the offending
> sister. This is very primitive behaviour, pre-dating muslimmity, and
> should be dealt with in education and helping both the victim to be and
> the killer to be to get out of family setting for years. That will have a
> lasting effect on other cases far more than the sentencing level.
>
--
Steve Goldfarb
>What's more, the rest of the culture seems to condone such killing even
>when punished harshly, which encourages the continued practice.
I suppose that anyone who's own sense of pride and ego is so strong that
he's willing to have his daughter murdered rather than face what he
considers embarrassment has already demonstrated that his own ego is more
valuable to him than the lives of his children. So why would he mind
sending his son away to jail for life either, if doing so is good for his
own self-image?
Not really sure how you fight this - maybe ensuring that the results of
his actions are much more humiliating to him personally than any behavior
his daughter may have done. E.g., make sure that the father is arrested,
taken on a "perp walk" through town. I'd probably arrest the mother too -
the whole lot of them, the objective that none of them could show their
face in polite company again. That when people hear their names, they say
them? You mean the murders?
Do that a few times and maybe people will get the message. To be clear,
and to address the above point regarding punishment, i agree that it's not
a question of severity. Picking the brother and giving him a life sentence
wouldn't be as effective, I don't think, as throwing both parents in jail
for just a couple years - making sure they lose their businesses, can't
get credit, etc.
--s
--
sheldonlg
> Again, I would agree. Personally, I do not support the death penalty.
> I would focus more upon what you mention with regard to a primitive
> (local) culture as a whole rather than one particular practice.
I do. A murderer that is executed will definitely NOT commit another
murder.
sheldonlg
> I saw this item. Shelly, other USAns, is it really happening?
Why single out my name? Most of SCJM lives in the USA. Also, we go by
"Americans". The only place I have seen USAns is here.
>
> http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/11/02/20091102noor1102-CR.html
>
Don Levey
Assuming that this person actually committed the murder, sure.
Keep in mind that while Judaism does indeed have a death penalty, it is
full of restrictions that render it difficult if not impossible to kill
the wrong person.
cindys
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
> > I saw this item. Shelly, other USAns, is it really happening?
>
>
> Yes, they are increasing in number as well. Most notoriously,
> the apparently very westernized CEO of BridgesTV cable channel (a
> Muslim dawa venture based in upstate NY) beheaded his wife,
> allegedly for not showing him proper deference and not wanting a
> more traditional Muslim home.
>
> chsw
--------------
That was the case I was referencing in an earlier post. It happened in
Buffalo, New York.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
> Don Levey wrote on 05 nov 2009 in soc.culture.jewish.moderated:
snip
>
> I ment murder in general. Murder seems relatively immune to the harshness
> of the sentence. Honour murder even more so.
>
> > There are relatively few honor killings over here.
>
> There are some here.
> Why do you call that relatively few?
> Relatively to what?
>
> > On the other hand,
> > there are countries where such things *are* tolerated, and it seems the
> > incidence of honor killings is proportionally much higher.
>
> That does not mean the higher incidence is because of lenient sentencing.
> It could be that it is just a terrible part of the primitivity of some
> local cultures. From over here the death sentence seems very primitive
> and ineffective.
>
> I do not think honour killings are effectively suppressed by harsh
> sentencing, as the honour of those families surpasses the risk of long
> imprisonment. That does not mean to be lenient, but the effect on other
> killings will be minimal.
snip
------
It might not deter future honor killings, but it also sends the
message that in America, the law is not going to look the other way
when these things happen. The judge was saying, in effect, "Hey buddy,
you're not in Kansas in more." And I think that many Americans
(including myself) felt a great deal of emotional satisfaction from
that statement (as much as from the guilty judgment and the prison
sentence).
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
lee
> he's willing to have his daughter murdered rather than face what he
> considers embarrassment has already demonstrated that his own ego is more
> valuable to him than the lives of his children. So why would he mind
> sending his son away to jail for life either, if doing so is good for his
> own self-image?
>
entirely sure how much I'm joking her)
mm
<Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote:
>
>>>> Narrow-minded but understanding Judge,
>>>> obviously didn't read any obscure Dutch or even Danish newspapers.
>>>>
>>> Narrow-minded? Are you suggesting that he should be more welcoming of
>>> such a concept as honor killings?
>>
>> No, I m not suggesting that. Narrow-minded in the sense that he vagely
>> had heard by hearsay ["understood"], and used thet hearsay in his
>> sentence. Often judges have an overrated idea of the effect of their
>> work. I do not envy them.
>>
>Ah, OK. It may be that "narrow-minded" isn't the best English word to
>use in this instance, but I understand what you mean. I would say,
>though, that I don't see an imperative for the judge to be familiar with
>the events elsewhere in the performance of his job (but, for personal
>development, I'd say it's a good idea). Whether it is common or rare in
>other countries doesn't really have a bearing on the law in the host
>country or its application in the court.
Well, it is worth mentioning, lest the idiots think, "Well, they're
just not used to our culture and like Americans learned to eat pizza
and chop suey, they'll get used to "honor killings" and won't
prosecute them in the future.
--
Meir
"The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
Nick Cramer
> I saw this item. Shelly, other USAns, is it really happening?
>
> http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/11/02/20091102noor1102-CR.htm
> l
Sad, but, unfortunately, true, Moshe.
A 17 year old girl, who had run away from her family in Michigan (?) to
Florida, after converting from Islam to Christianity, for which she feared
her family would kill her, has been returned to her home state by the
Florida court. I fear for her safety.
--
Nick, KI6VAV. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their
families: https://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/ Thank a Veteran!
Support Our Troops: http://anymarine.com/ You are not forgotten.
Thanks ! ! ~Semper Fi~ USMC 1365061
Fattush
>
>
> --
> Moshe Schorr
You seem surprised that this would happen in the US. Why are you
surprised?
This tragedy has little to do with the US and everything to do with
the fact that the family is Muslim/Arab. It could happen anywhere
Muslims/Arabs are.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> On Nov 5, 9:11=A0am, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> I saw this item. Shelly, other USAns, is it really happening?
>>
>> http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/11/02/20091102noor1102-CR...
>
> surprised?
>
> This tragedy has little to do with the US and everything to do with
> the fact that the family is Muslim/Arab. It could happen anywhere
> Muslims/Arabs are.
Well, acording to Steve's post, and to a degree Don's, if the
prevailing "atmosphere" in the society is against such killings,
it would have an affect of stopping them. So if they _arre_ happening
what does that say about the "atmosphere" in USAn society? According
to Cindy, the fact the sentencing judge made a point of mentioning
that in America such actions are not acceptable gave her and others
emotional satisfaction. That is a good sign.
Fattush
> Fattush <fattuc...@yahoo.com> writes:
> > On Nov 5, 9:11=A0am, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
> >> I saw this item. Shelly, other USAns, is it really happening?
>
> >>http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/11/02/20091102noor1102-CR...
>
> > You seem surprised that this would happen in the US. Why are you
> > surprised?
>
> > This tragedy has little to do with the US and everything to do with
> > the fact that the family is Muslim/Arab. It could happen anywhere
> > Muslims/Arabs are.
>
> Well, acording to Steve's post, and to a degree Don's, if the
> prevailing "atmosphere" in the society is against such killings,
> it would have an affect of stopping them.
I don't fully agree with that assumption. Of course American society
is against such killings; but if a person or family lives an isolated
existence and does not care about societal norms (i.e. Charles Manson
and gang) then he/she/they will still engage in anti social behavior
until they are killed or jailed.
So if they _arre_ happening
> what does that say about the "atmosphere" in USAn society?
It may say that the atmosphere in US society is lax as far as
constantly monitoring everyone. It may say that the US is naive about
Muslims, especially immigrants who come to the US with strong
immigrant backgrounds who are not interested in melded into Western
society. HOwever it does not mean the the US condones honor
killings. It may mean that American society is not even familiar with
such things because they are viewed as an aberration, and people in
the US would not expect any sane father to mow down his child.
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
>
>
> --
> Moshe Schorr
What does it matter? After all, they are Muslims thus are given a
pass by the leftwing in the US.
Plus what does this have to do with Judaism?
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
If this were done by a conservative in the US, that is all we would be
hearing about for weeks. Look at the way the media goes after those
who do not want to get their children medical treatment (not that I
find that acceptable). But Muslims, like Hispanics and Gays, are seen
as a victim class thus are given protection by the press and the
leftwing of US politics.
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
But the press does look the other way, often making such stories
"disappear". It does not hound them in the way the press might had
this been a more conservative group. The Muslims are seen as a victim
class (often due to the Palestinians) thus are given a pass by the
press.
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
> > I saw this item. Shelly, other USAns, is it really happening?
>
> > l
>
> Sad, but, unfortunately, true, Moshe.
>
> A 17 year old girl, who had run away from her family in Michigan (?) to
> Florida, after converting from Islam to Christianity, for which she feared
> her family would kill her, has been returned to her home state by the
> Florida court. I fear for her safety.
>
> --
> Nick, KI6VAV.
As for this case, the media seems to take the view that the Muslims
are right and good. Had this been the other way, they would have been
fighting to keep the girl from going home.
sheldonlg
> Fattush <fatt...@yahoo.com> writes:
>> On Nov 5, 9:11=A0am, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>>> I saw this item. Shelly, other USAns, is it really happening?
>>>
>>> http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/11/02/20091102noor1102-CR...
>> You seem surprised that this would happen in the US. Why are you
>> surprised?
>>
>> This tragedy has little to do with the US and everything to do with
>> the fact that the family is Muslim/Arab. It could happen anywhere
>> Muslims/Arabs are.
>
> Well, acording to Steve's post, and to a degree Don's, if the
> prevailing "atmosphere" in the society is against such killings,
> it would have an affect of stopping them. So if they _arre_ happening
Really? Among over 300 million people? In an era of instant
communication over the entire world? No, Moshe, there will always be
"some". All we can do is take a stiff stand against it and nail the
perpetrators to the wall.
sheldonlg
Well said.
Nick Cramer
> [ . . . ]
> If this were done by a conservative in the US, that is all we would be
> hearing about for weeks. Look at the way the media goes after those
> who do not want to get their children medical treatment (not that I
> find that acceptable). But Muslims, like Hispanics and Gays, are seen
> as a victim class thus are given protection by the press and the
> leftwing of US politics.
<sigh> I cannot but concur. I fear great strife in the US when the People
wake up!
mm
Do you think Arabs who commit "honor killings" are a liberal group? I
don't think anyone else thinks that.
Get it through your head that not everything is about liberal vs.
conservative, and not everything is done to punish conservatives or
reward liberals.
> The Muslims are seen as a victim
>class (often due to the Palestinians) thus are given a pass by the
>press.
I think it's hard to say how much press honor murders should get. We
would like them to get a tremendous amount to make Moslems look bad,
but most of the news is about people who do bad things. Why shouldn't
they other people get plenty of press to make sure they look bad to
the greatest number of people. For two years I had a next door
neighbor who got on my nerves. I wish he had gotten a lot of bad
press too, but I don't know how much would have been reasonsable.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> Fattush <fattuc...@yahoo.com> writes:
snip
>> Well, acording to Steve's post, and to a degree Don's, if the
>> prevailing "atmosphere" in the society is against such killings,
>> it would have an affect of stopping them.
>
> I don't fully agree with that assumption. Of course American society
> is against such killings; but if a person or family lives an isolated
> existence and does not care about societal norms (i.e. Charles Manson
> and gang) then he/she/they will still engage in anti social behavior
> until they are killed or jailed.
>
>> So if they _arre_ happening
>> what does that say about the "atmosphere" in USAn society?
>
> It may say that the atmosphere in US society is lax as far as
> constantly monitoring everyone. It may say that the US is naive
> about Muslims, especially immigrants who come to the US with strong
> immigrant backgrounds who are not interested in melded into Western
> society. HOwever it does not mean the the US condones honor
> killings. It may mean that American society is not even familiar with
> such things because they are viewed as an aberration, and people in
> the US would not expect any sane father to mow down his child.
What you say makes a lot of sense. So _who_ is goingto "wake up
America" to the problem? How many Ft. Hoods does America need?
Nick Cramer
> [ . . . ]
> It may say that the atmosphere in US society is lax as far as
> constantly monitoring everyone. It may say that the US is naive about
> Muslims, especially immigrants who come to the US with strong
> immigrant backgrounds who are not interested in melded into Western
> society. HOwever it does not mean the the US condones honor
> killings. It may mean that American society is not even familiar with
> such things because they are viewed as an aberration, and people in
> the US would not expect any sane father to mow down his child.
The naivet� of the general populace and, in particular, the government in
this regard, coupled with the social drive for "political correctness",
strikes me as being a big part of the laxity and failure to recognize (or
accept) the warning signs.
Nick Cramer
> > mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
> > > I saw this item. Shelly, other USAns, is it really happening?
> >
> > >http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/11/02/20091102noor1102-CR.
> > >..
> > > l
> >
> > Sad, but, unfortunately, true, Moshe.
> >
> > A 17 year old girl, who had run away from her family in Michigan (?) to
> > Florida, after converting from Islam to Christianity, for which she
> d
> > her family would kill her, has been returned to her home state by the
> > Florida court. I fear for her safety.
> >
> > --
> > Nick, KI6VAV.
> A Marine and a ham? Not very "kosher"....
Shmary! I'm a goy from da Bronx! A shaynem dank im der pupik! LOL
> As for this case, the media seems to take the view that the Muslims
> are right and good. Had this been the other way, they would have been
> fighting to keep the girl from going home.
When you have enough laws on the books and enough case law, a Judge can
justify almost anything! I love my country, but despise the scaliwags who
run it! When enough of the People awake . . . .
Fattush
> Fattush wrote:
> > I don't fully agree with that assumption. Of course American society
> > is against such killings; but if a person or family lives an isolated
> > existence and does not care about societal norms (i.e. Charles Manson
> > and gang) then he/she/they will still engage in anti social behavior
> > until they are killed or jailed.
>
> > So if they _arre_ happening
> >> what does that say about the "atmosphere" in USAn society?
>
> > It may say that the atmosphere in US society is lax as far as
> > constantly monitoring everyone. It may say that the US is naive about
> > Muslims, especially immigrants who come to the US with strong
> > immigrant backgrounds who are not interested in melded into Western
> > society. HOwever it does not mean the the US condones honor
> > killings. It may mean that American society is not even familiar with
> > such things because they are viewed as an aberration, and people in
> > the US would not expect any sane father to mow down his child.
>
> Well said.-
Thank you.
fla...@verizon.net
On 9-Nov-2009, Nick Cramer <n_cram...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> The naivet� of the general populace and, in particular, the government in
> this regard, coupled with the social drive for "political correctness",
> strikes me as being a big part of the laxity and failure to recognize (or
> accept) the warning signs.
I am loathe to state in in these precise terms, but I have to agree.
Susan
Nick Cramer
> > It may say that the atmosphere in US society is lax as far as
> > constantly monitoring everyone. It may say that the US is naive
> > about Muslims, especially immigrants who come to the US with strong
> > immigrant backgrounds who are not interested in melded into Western
> > society. HOwever it does not mean the the US condones honor
> > killings. It may mean that American society is not even familiar with
> > such things because they are viewed as an aberration, and people in
> > the US would not expect any sane father to mow down his child.
>
> What you say makes a lot of sense. So _who_ is goingto "wake up
> America" to the problem? How many Ft. Hoods does America need?
Not _who_, I think, Moshe, but _what_? The straw will eventually be placed
on the camel's back.
chsw
> On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 20:32:26 +0000 (UTC), "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch"
> <omeg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
[comments cut - chsw]
>> The Muslims are seen as a victim
>> class (often due to the Palestinians) thus are given a pass by the
>> press.
>
> I think it's hard to say how much press honor murders should get. We
> would like them to get a tremendous amount to make Moslems look bad,
> but most of the news is about people who do bad things. Why shouldn't
> they other people get plenty of press to make sure they look bad to
> the greatest number of people. For two years I had a next door
> neighbor who got on my nerves. I wish he had gotten a lot of bad
> press too, but I don't know how much would have been reasonsable.
murderers = bad neighbors? I think that you didn't think through
the analogy. I'll leave it at that.
Increased publicity for the "honor murderers" would have two
effects. First, it would increase the general revulsion towards
the acts and perpetrators. Second, it would increase the status
of those murderers in much of the Muslim community here and abroad.
chsw
cindys
> On 9-Nov-2009, Nick Cramer <n_cramerS...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> > The naiveté of the general populace and, in particular, the government in
> > this regard, coupled with the social drive for "political correctness",
> > strikes me as being a big part of the laxity and failure to recognize (or
> > accept) the warning signs.
>
> I am loathe to state in in these precise terms, but I have to agree.
>
> Susan
----------------
Yesterday, my local Sunday paper carried yet another rehashment of
what went down at Ft. Hood. It described that an US army major (who
was a psychiatrist) had shot up a medical clinic where other US
service people were in the process of receiving vaccinations. There
was not one mention, NOT ONE, regarding that the guy was a Muslim.
My husband thought it must be some mistake. He told me to re-read the
article, that I must have missed something. I told him there was no
mistake. My husband then pulled the article off the Internet that
described how the assassin was a Muslim, had routinely attended a
local mosque, had been posting all sorts of radical Islamic stuff on
the Internet for months and had (ostensibly) shouted "allahu akbar"
before shooting the place up. Not one word about any of that was
mentioned in my local newspaper.
I don't think anybody is failing to "recognize the warning signs." But
I do feel that the newspaper article's omitting mention of the Muslim
connection was deliberate. It wasn't exactly an insignificant
detail.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Fattush
IMO the US should have zero tolerance for the incident at Ft. Hood.
However, as long as we have a liberal government and a liberal press,
I fear taht American will not wake up. People are highly influenced
by the media and by high ranking leaders.
Indeed I heard an interview by one woman. Her father was among those
killed at Ft. Hood. She said essentially that to her it is irrelevant
that the shooter was Muslim. She feels he is an American and that his
is a disturbed invidividual. If most Americans believe as she does,
then America will never wake up.
Fattush
> Fattush <fattuc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > [ . . . ]
> > It may say that the atmosphere in US society is lax as far as
> > constantly monitoring everyone. It may say that the US is naive about
> > Muslims, especially immigrants who come to the US with strong
> > immigrant backgrounds who are not interested in melded into Western
> > society. HOwever it does not mean the the US condones honor
> > killings. It may mean that American society is not even familiar with
> > such things because they are viewed as an aberration, and people in
> > the US would not expect any sane father to mow down his child.
>
> this regard, coupled with the social drive for "political correctness",
> strikes me as being a big part of the laxity and failure to recognize (or
> accept) the warning signs.
Agreed. Many government officials bend over backwards toward
political correctness. In NYC, for example, I have heard of incidents
where public school teachers and others are forbidden from discussing
September 11 as an Arab or Muslim act of terror. While schools can
discuss or remember the events of September 11, often the identity of
the perpertrators or the reasons behind it are glossed over.
mm
wrote:
>mm wrote:
>> On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 20:32:26 +0000 (UTC), "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch"
>> <omeg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>
>[comments cut - chsw]
>
>>> The Muslims are seen as a victim
>>> class (often due to the Palestinians) thus are given a pass by the
>>> press.
>>
>> I think it's hard to say how much press honor murders should get. We
>> would like them to get a tremendous amount to make Moslems look bad,
>> but most of the news is about people who do bad things. Why shouldn't
>> they other people get plenty of press to make sure they look bad to
>> the greatest number of people. For two years I had a next door
>> neighbor who got on my nerves. I wish he had gotten a lot of bad
>> press too, but I don't know how much would have been reasonsable.
>
>murderers = bad neighbors? I think that you didn't think through
>the analogy. I'll leave it at that.
They're not comparable, except that I was trying to ilusstrate an
earlier sentence. Because I didn't like my neighbor, I wanted
everyone in the neighborhood to know what a problem he was.
The Moslem honor murderers share press with other murderers. I've
pretty much stopped watching local news in Baltimore because more than
half of it many days is about one murder after another. Admittedly,
most of them are motivated by things I can do nothing about, and these
are a little different, although the police and courts here take as
seriously as any other murder (and they might be easier to solve).
I don't think there have been any in the Baltimore news area, and I
can't judge if the ones other places have gotten enough press. I'll
leave it at that.
>
>Increased publicity for the "honor murderers" would have two
>effects. First, it would increase the general revulsion towards
>the acts and perpetrators. Second, it would increase the status
>of those murderers in much of the Muslim community here and abroad.
What a choice. :(
>chsw
Nick Cramer
> However, as long as we have a liberal government and a liberal press,
> I fear taht American will not wake up. People are highly influenced
> by the media and by high ranking leaders.
As evidenced by the Tea Parties and town hall events, eh? Governments don't
fear peaceful protest, they fear the use of raw, naked power. They will
bring that on themselves!
> Indeed I heard an interview by one woman. Her father was among those
> killed at Ft. Hood. She said essentially that to her it is irrelevant
> that the shooter was Muslim. She feels he is an American and that his
> is a disturbed invidividual. If most Americans believe as she does,
> then America will never wake up.
While many Americans may believe the way that ONE woman you heard does, I
think that MOST do not. We just dread possibly having to take up arms
against a government that has run amuck. ;-|
fla...@verizon.net
On 9-Nov-2009, cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> On Nov 9, 8:02�am, flav...@verizon.net wrote:
> > On �9-Nov-2009, Nick Cramer <n_cramerS...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> >
> > > The naivet� of the general populace and, in particular, the government
> > > in
> > > this regard, coupled with the social drive for "political
> > > correctness",
> > > strikes me as being a big part of the laxity and failure to recognize
> > > (or
> > > accept) the warning signs.
> >
> > I am loathe to state in in these precise terms, but I have to agree.
> >
> > Susan
>
> ----------------
> Yesterday, my local Sunday paper carried yet another rehashment of
> what went down at Ft. Hood. It described that an US army major (who
> was a psychiatrist) had shot up a medical clinic where other US
> service people were in the process of receiving vaccinations. There
> was not one mention, NOT ONE, regarding that the guy was a Muslim.
>
> My husband thought it must be some mistake. He told me to re-read the
> article, that I must have missed something. I told him there was no
> mistake. My husband then pulled the article off the Internet that
> described how the assassin was a Muslim, had routinely attended a
> local mosque, had been posting all sorts of radical Islamic stuff on
> the Internet for months and had (ostensibly) shouted "allahu akbar"
> before shooting the place up. Not one word about any of that was
> mentioned in my local newspaper.
>
> I don't think anybody is failing to "recognize the warning signs."
Oh, the people who think they are helping by trying to
smother the fact that the guy was behaving like a jihadi
certainly are ignoring them.
> But
> I do feel that the newspaper article's omitting mention of the Muslim
> connection was deliberate. It wasn't exactly an insignificant
> detail.
Yep - it's the misguided version of pc at work.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 9-Nov-2009, Fattush <fatt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> IMO the US should have zero tolerance for the incident at Ft. Hood.
> However, as long as we have a liberal government and a liberal press,
> I fear taht American will not wake up. People are highly influenced
> by the media and by high ranking leaders.
>
> Indeed I heard an interview by one woman. Her father was among those
> killed at Ft. Hood. She said essentially that to her it is irrelevant
> that the shooter was Muslim. She feels he is an American and that his
> is a disturbed invidividual. If most Americans believe as she does,
> then America will never wake up.
And are you claiming that this woman is also a liberal?
Susan
cindys
> On 9-Nov-2009, cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 9, 8:02 am, flav...@verizon.net wrote:
> > > On 9-Nov-2009, Nick Cramer <n_cramerS...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
Today's front page headline in USA Today read something like "US Army
Fears Huge Anti-Muslim Backlash." So, despite the efforts for a PC
cover-up, apparently there was a leak. (t-i-c)
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Nick Cramer
I'm almost 75, Susan. I've watched my country going downhill at an
ever-increasing rapid rate for what seems like 50 years. What it will take
for its recovery will not, I think, be pretty. ;-(
Harry Weiss
> On Nov 9, 2:45?am, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
> > Fattush <fattuc...@yahoo.com> writes:
> > > mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
> > >> Fattush <fattuc...@yahoo.com> writes:
> > >> > On Nov 5, 9:11=3DA0am, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
> >
> > snip
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >> Well, acording to Steve's post, and to a degree Don's, if the
> > >> prevailing "atmosphere" in the society is against such killings,
> > >> it would have an affect of stopping them.
> >
> > > is against such killings; but if a person or family lives an isolated
> > > existence and does not care about societal norms (i.e. Charles Manson
> > > and gang) then he/she/they will still engage in anti social behavior
> > > until they are killed or jailed.
> >
> > >> So if they _arre_ happening
> > >> what does that say about the "atmosphere" in USAn society?
> >
> > > It may say that the atmosphere in US society is lax as far as
> > > about Muslims, especially immigrants who come to the US with strong
> > > immigrant backgrounds who are not interested in melded into Western
> > > killings. ?It may mean that American society is not even familiar with
> > > such things because they are viewed as an aberration, and people in
> > > the US would not expect any sane father to mow down his child.
> >
> > What you say makes a lot of sense. So _who_ is goingto "wake up
> > America" to the problem? How many Ft. Hoods does America need?
> IMO the US should have zero tolerance for the incident at Ft. Hood.
> However, as long as we have a liberal government and a liberal press,
> I fear taht American will not wake up. People are highly influenced
> by the media and by high ranking leaders.
> Indeed I heard an interview by one woman. Her father was among those
> killed at Ft. Hood. She said essentially that to her it is irrelevant
> that the shooter was Muslim. She feels he is an American and that his
> is a disturbed invidividual. If most Americans believe as she does,
> then America will never wake up.
You are right. I read an interview with one of his fellow mulims and his
mosqure and they are blaming the army that he did it.
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
fla...@verizon.net
On 9-Nov-2009, Nick Cramer <n_cram...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> fla...@verizon.net wrote:
> > On 9-Nov-2009, Nick Cramer <n_cram...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> >
> > > The naivet� of the general populace and, in particular, the government
> > > in this regard, coupled with the social drive for "political
> > > correctness", strikes me as being a big part of the laxity and failure
> > > to recognize (or accept) the warning signs.
> >
> > I am loathe to state in in these precise terms, but I have to agree.
>
> I'm almost 75, Susan. I've watched my country going downhill at an
> ever-increasing rapid rate for what seems like 50 years. What it will take
> for its recovery will not, I think, be pretty. ;-(
Well, some things have gotten better.
Unfortunately, they have provided camoflage
for the things that are worse - i.e., we are
more sensitive to the oppressed, but now we
have erroneously stretched the definition to
our detriment.
Susan
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> ----------------
> Yesterday, my local Sunday paper carried yet another rehashment of
> what went down at Ft. Hood. It described that an US army major (who
> was a psychiatrist) had shot up a medical clinic where other US
> service people were in the process of receiving vaccinations. There
> was not one mention, NOT ONE, regarding that the guy was a Muslim.
>
> My husband thought it must be some mistake. He told me to re-read the
> article, that I must have missed something. I told him there was no
> mistake. My husband then pulled the article off the Internet that
> described how the assassin was a Muslim, had routinely attended a
> local mosque, had been posting all sorts of radical Islamic stuff on
> the Internet for months and had (ostensibly) shouted "allahu akbar"
> before shooting the place up. Not one word about any of that was
> mentioned in my local newspaper.
>
> I don't think anybody is failing to "recognize the warning signs." But
> I do feel that the newspaper article's omitting mention of the Muslim
> connection was deliberate. It wasn't exactly an insignificant
> detail.
Hmmm _just_ like the Madoff story where NOBODY mentioned the fact
that he is Jewish! </sarcasm>
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> On Nov 9, 7:22=A0pm, flav...@verizon.net wrote:
>> On =A09-Nov-2009, cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>>> On Nov 9, 8:02=A0am, flav...@verizon.net wrote:
>>>> On =A09-Nov-2009, Nick Cramer <n_cramerS...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>> The naivete' of the general populace and, in particular, the
>>>>> government in this regard, coupled with the social drive for
>>>>> "political correctness", strikes me as being a big part of the
>>
>>>> I am loathe to state in in these precise terms, but I have to agree.
>>
>>> Yesterday, my local Sunday paper carried yet another rehashment of
>>> what went down at Ft. Hood. It described that an US army major (who
>>> was a psychiatrist) had shot up a medical clinic where other US
>>> service people were in the process of receiving vaccinations. There
>>> was not one mention, NOT ONE, regarding that the guy was a Muslim.
>>
>>> My husband thought it must be some mistake. He told me to re-read the
>>> mistake. My husband then pulled the article off the Internet that
>>> described how the assassin was a Muslim, had routinely attended a
>>> local mosque, had been posting all sorts of radical Islamic stuff on
>>> the Internet for months and had (ostensibly) shouted "allahu akbar"
>>> before shooting the place up. Not one word about any of that was
>>> mentioned in my local newspaper.
>>
>>> I don't think anybody is failing to "recognize the warning signs."
>>
>> Oh, the people who think they are helping by trying to
>> smother the fact that the guy was behaving like a jihadi
>> certainly are ignoring them.
>>
>>> Muslim connection was deliberate. It wasn't exactly an
>>> insignificant detail.
>>
>> Yep - it's the misguided version of pc at work.
> Today's front page headline in USA Today read something like "US
> Army Fears Huge Anti-Muslim Backlash." So, despite the efforts
> for a PC cover-up, apparently there was a leak. (t-i-c)
Oy. We've seen this so-called "fear" so many times. This Muslim
tactic of voicing "fear" rather than condemning the action, loudly
and clearly, should by now convince _nobody_.
Unfortunately, this is not the case. As mentioned in a different
thread the very head of "Homeland Security" voiced such fear. The
inconvenient fact that there has _never_ been a backlash against
Muslims in USA is ignored.
Reminds me of the Bumper Sticker: "Muslims fear backlash over
tommorrow's terror attack".
<VERY BIG SIGH>
Fattush
I don't know what she is. I don't know her at all. Maybe she is
still in shock and in denial. Maybe she is a religious Christian and
believes in eternal life and forgiveness. Who knows.
cindys
> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
snip
> > Today's front page headline in USA Today read something like "US
> > Army Fears Huge Anti-Muslim Backlash." So, despite the efforts
> > for a PC cover-up, apparently there was a leak. (t-i-c)
>
> Oy. We've seen this so-called "fear" so many times. This Muslim
> tactic of voicing "fear" rather than condemning the action, loudly
> and clearly, should by now convince _nobody_.
>
> Unfortunately, this is not the case. As mentioned in a different
> thread the very head of "Homeland Security" voiced such fear. The
> inconvenient fact that there has _never_ been a backlash against
> Muslims in USA is ignored.
Actually, there has been, and there still is. Just because there
haven't been any anti-Muslim street riots doesn't mean there hasn't
been an anti-Muslim backlash.
After 9/11, there was/is a lot of (American domestic) bigotry directed
against American Muslims. There weren't any proverbial cross-burnings
(that I'm aware of, anyway), but Muslim kids were being bullied and
threatened on the way to school, for example. There was an incident
even at our local public school (which as I have described before is
extremely ethnically diverse and promotes tolerance) where a Muslim
boy was being bullied and harassed because he was a Muslim.
After 9/11, Caucasians became suspicious of their Arab/Muslim
neighbors and shunned them in a way they hadn't before. And the Muslim
neighbors felt the sting of that. Most Muslims living in America are
not terrorists and were in fact not involved with or applauding 9/11.
During his presidential campaign, Obama made a point of not
aggressively pursuing the Muslim vote the way he pursued the votes of
other groups. He did not campaign at the Association of Muslim
Businessmen (I don't know if this organization actually exists; I am
trying to make a point). He didn't want to give the non-Muslim world
more fodder for declaring that he was a closet Muslim. I was reading
an article where a Muslim college student said she (and other
students) felt hurt that Obama had virtually ignored them during his
campaign, but they understood why he needed to do this.
At the airport, since 9/11, anyone who looks like he might be an Arab
is questioned and examined much more rigorously than are other people.
This is not to make a case for or against profiling but to make the
point that there has indeed been a backlash.
There are Muslim stand-up comedians on Youtube. Listen to their
routines, and you'll get a picture of how non-Muslim America has come
to view and treat their Arab/Muslim neighbors.
As far as the US Army is concerned, I have no doubt that someone had
left a diaper in the guy's car with the note, "This is what you wear
on your head." There were a series of other incidents, as well. And
this was BEFORE the guy shot up Mt. Hood. How will Muslim servicemen
be treated now?
The US Army is worried about a backlash directed at Muslim US
servicemen by their fellow servicemen. Not only are they worried about
a major increase in hazing-type incidents, but a bigger concern is
that men (and women) are being shipped over to Iraq and Afghanistan
every day, and they need to be able to trust each other. Each one of
them is depending on his or her fellow soldiers to cover his/her
back.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Jay L
> On Nov 10, 5:43 am, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
> snip
> > > Today's front page headline in USA Today read something like "US
> > > Army Fears Huge Anti-Muslim Backlash." So, despite the efforts
> > > for a PC cover-up, apparently there was a leak. (t-i-c)
>
> > Oy. We've seen this so-called "fear" so many times. This Muslim
> > tactic of voicing "fear" rather than condemning the action, loudly
> > and clearly, should by now convince _nobody_.
>
> > Unfortunately, this is not the case. As mentioned in a different
> > thread the very head of "Homeland Security" voiced such fear. The
> > inconvenient fact that there has _never_ been a backlash against
> > Muslims in USA is ignored.
>
> --------------
> Actually, there has been, and there still is. Just because there
> haven't been any anti-Muslim street riots doesn't mean there hasn't
> been an anti-Muslim backlash.
>
> After 9/11, there was/is a lot of (American domestic) bigotry directed
> against American Muslims. There weren't any proverbial cross-burnings
> (that I'm aware of, anyway), but Muslim kids were being bullied and
> threatened on the way to school, for example.
AND there were murders of Sikhs, Copts, Pakistanis, etc., some of
which, at least, had specific and direct connections to 9/11 only
because the victims (Sikhs, especially) wear head turbans.
http://www.themediaoasis.com/hatevictims.html
Jay
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
> snip
>> > Today's front page headline in USA Today read something like "US
So maybe the question is how to define "backlash"? If CAIR and the
other Muslim-American organiztions would spend as much time
_educating_ their fellow-Muslims on the "American" way instead of
defending the indefensible, perhaps much of this mistrust would
disappear?
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
Thak you Jay for this information. I was only aware of one case of
murder, by a white supremist who was sentenced to death for it.
It is deplorable. But I think it is isolated cases. The problem
in the military is much greater. Again, the question is what will
_organized_ Muslims do?
lee
anyone who looks like a Muslim,
including in the UK Brazilians
Steve Goldfarb
>I'm almost 75, Susan. I've watched my country going downhill at an
>ever-increasing rapid rate for what seems like 50 years. What it will take
>for its recovery will not, I think, be pretty. ;-(
You think so? There are certainly problems today, big problems, but
overall I think most Americans at least are much better off today than
they would have been in 1960. Certainly true for blacks and women,
probably true for Jews and Catholics.
Not only in terms of personal freedoms, but just everyday violence -
people were killed in bar brawls on a daily basis back then, because
that's what people did after a shift at the plant - they went to the bar
and got hammered. There were no seatbelts in cars. Factories were dumping
tons and tons of highly toxic chemicals wherever they liked. There were no
pollution controls to speak of, no notion of consumer safety really.
In 1960 there was constant fear of the Russians, residual fear and anger
from WWII and Korea, and we were about to enter Vietnam. Our government
was destablizing regimes across the world.
There was no medical care to speak of - X-Rays and penicillin, that was
about it, you got anything more serious than an infection and you were
dead. Cancer? Dead. Heart attack? Dead. Stroke? Dead. Everyone smoked,
nobody exercised.
If 1960 was so great, then how come everything fell apart 10 years later?
Surely the seeds of that collapse stem from prior institutional failures.
--s
--
cindys
>
> As far as the US Army is concerned, I have no doubt that someone had
> left a diaper in the guy's car with the note, "This is what you wear
> on your head." There were a series of other incidents, as well. And
> this was BEFORE the guy shot up Mt. Hood.
-----
Ummm....Fort Hood...
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
fla...@verizon.net
I agree that the man was doubtless subjected to abuse.
But what do Jews who are also subject to not just abuse
but pressure do? That's the contrast.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
My point is that it's not just the liberals who are missing stuff.
Susan
cindys
I wasn't trying to excuse the guy's actions. I was explaining why the
Army's concerns about a backlash were legitimate (i.e., that Muslims
and other groups genuinely do get harassed in the US Army), and now,
this will get worse, and this is a huge concern because when you're
out in the field, you need to know that your buddy is watching your
lee
What might they do if the US decided it wanted to intervene militarily
to impose a peace deal between Israel & the Palestinians. Unlikely I
know.
sheldonlg
Mt. Hood is in Melrose, MA. I used to play golf there forty odd years ago.
Don Levey
...Or: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Hood
--
Don Levey, Framingam MA If knowledge is power,
(email address in header works) and power corrupts, then...
NOTE: Don't send mail to to sal...@the-leveys.us
GnuPG public key: http://www.the-leveys.us:6080/keys/don-dsakey.asc
cindys
------------
I thought it was in the State of Washington.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
fla...@verizon.net
On 10-Nov-2009, cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> On Nov 10, 10:41�am, flav...@verizon.net wrote:
> > On 10-Nov-2009, cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Nov 10, 8:26�am, cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > As far as the US Army is concerned, I have no doubt that someone had
> > > > left a diaper in the guy's car with the note, "This is what you wear
> > > > on your head." There were a series of other incidents, as well. And
> > > > this was BEFORE the guy shot up Mt. Hood.
> > > -----
> > > Ummm....Fort Hood...
> >
> > I agree that the man was doubtless subjected to abuse.
> > But what do Jews who are also subject to not just abuse
> > but pressure do? That's the contrast.
> >
> > Susan
> -----------
> I wasn't trying to excuse the guy's actions
Oh, I wasn't trying to say you were.
I was just making a point.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
Impossible, actually - the US would never be that stupid.
However, I can say with certainty that there would not be
this sort of reaction to it, & you could never show me how
anyone should believe any different.
What is the fanatical Muslim response to anything they
don't like? Threats of, if not actual, violence.
At worst, Jews protest. Or litigate.
If you're syaing that any Jew would attack any fellow
soldier over this, I'd have to say that you're really
grasping at straws.
We'd have protests & immigratrion, reginations of
commmissions, but you can't show me any proof
that Jews would shed innocent blood over this.
Fanatical Muslims do it all the time.
Susan
sheldonlg
> On Nov 10, 11:54 am, sheldonlg <sheldo...@giganews.com> wrote:
>> cindys wrote:
>>> On Nov 10, 8:26 am, cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> As far as the US Army is concerned, I have no doubt that someone had
>>>> left a diaper in the guy's car with the note, "This is what you wear
>>>> on your head." There were a series of other incidents, as well. And
>>>> this was BEFORE the guy shot up Mt. Hood.
>>> -----
>>> Ummm....Fort Hood...
>>> Best regards,
>>> ---Cindy S.
>> Mt. Hood is in Melrose, MA. I used to play golf there forty odd years ago.
>
> ------------
> I thought it was in the State of Washington.
I forgot to add the smiley. The Mt. Hood is Melrose is at most a couple
of hundred feet. It has/had a nice municipal golf course, though.
(PeteCresswell)
>You think so? There are certainly problems today, big problems, but
>overall I think most Americans at least are much better off today than
>they would have been in 1960. Certainly true for blacks and women,
>probably true for Jews and Catholics.
>
>Not only in terms of personal freedoms, but just everyday violence -
>people were killed in bar brawls on a daily basis back then, because
>that's what people did after a shift at the plant - they went to the bar
>and got hammered. There were no seatbelts in cars. Factories were dumping
>tons and tons of highly toxic chemicals wherever they liked. There were no
>pollution controls to speak of, no notion of consumer safety really.
>
>In 1960 there was constant fear of the Russians, residual fear and anger
>from WWII and Korea, and we were about to enter Vietnam. Our government
>was destablizing regimes across the world.
>
>There was no medical care to speak of - X-Rays and penicillin, that was
>about it, you got anything more serious than an infection and you were
>dead. Cancer? Dead. Heart attack? Dead. Stroke? Dead. Everyone smoked,
>nobody exercised.
>
>If 1960 was so great, then how come everything fell apart 10 years later?
>Surely the seeds of that collapse stem from prior institutional failures.
That one's a "Keeper".
Thanks!
--
PeteCresswell
Nick Cramer
"Steve Goldfarb" <s...@panix.com> wrote:
> Nick Cramer <n_cram...@pacbell.net> writes:
>
> >I'm almost 75, Susan. I've watched my country going downhill at an
> >ever-increasing rapid rate for what seems like 50 years. What it will
> >take for its recovery will not, I think, be pretty. ;-(
>
> You think so? There are certainly problems today, big problems, but
> overall I think most Americans at least are much better off today than
> they would have been in 1960. Certainly true for blacks and women,
> probably true for Jews and Catholics.
Gee. I hadn't thought of that! I converted from Catholicism to Atheism in
1952. By 1960 (25 years old), I was only making $165 a week. Life was
tough.
> Not only in terms of personal freedoms, but just everyday violence -
> people were killed in bar brawls on a daily basis back then, because
> that's what people did after a shift at the plant - they went to the bar
> and got hammered. There were no seatbelts in cars. Factories were dumping
> tons and tons of highly toxic chemicals wherever they liked. There were
> no pollution controls to speak of, no notion of consumer safety really.
I've had seatbelts installed in my cars since 1956. That's personal
freedom! I don't need no damned gubmin telling me to take care of myself.
> In 1960 there was constant fear of the Russians, residual fear and anger
> from WWII and Korea, and we were about to enter Vietnam. Our government
> was destablizing regimes across the world.
In 1960, we were prepared, willing and able to deal with any attack on
America. Our government is still destablizing regimes across the world.
> There was no medical care to speak of - X-Rays and penicillin, that was
> about it, you got anything more serious than an infection and you were
> dead. Cancer? Dead. Heart attack? Dead. Stroke? Dead. Everyone smoked,
> nobody exercised.
I've smoked, drank and cussed since the late 40's. Had several serious
operations in the 40's and 50's. Penicillin is still good. Had HBP and the
meds for it since '61.
> If 1960 was so great, then how come everything fell apart 10 years later?
> Surely the seeds of that collapse stem from prior institutional failures.
It's still falling apart, at an ever-increasing rapid rate.
'The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning
of history, has been about 200 years.' 'During those 200 years, those
nations always progressed through the following sequence:
1. from bondage to spiritual faith;
2. from spiritual faith to great courage;
3. from courage to liberty;
4. from liberty to abundance;
5. from abundance to complacency;
6. from complacency to apathy;
7. from apathy to dependence;
8. from dependence back into bondage.
So WHERE are we, citizens of the United States in the historically proven
Life Cycle of Nations?
A government powerful enough to give you everything, is powerful enough to
take everything from you!
In the Robert A. Heinlein novel To Sail Beyond the Sunset, Dr. Johnson
says, "Does your common man understand chivalry? Noblesse oblige?
Aristocratic rules of conduct? Personal responsibility for the welfare of
the state? One may as well search for fur on a frog."
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> [ Moderator's Comment: We have drifted well off-topic HPG ]
I'll try to take it back.
> 'The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning
> of history, has been about 200 years.' 'During those 200 years, those
> nations always progressed through the following sequence:
>
> 1. from bondage to spiritual faith;
> 2. from spiritual faith to great courage;
> 3. from courage to liberty;
> 4. from liberty to abundance;
> 5. from abundance to complacency;
> 6. from complacency to apathy;
> 7. from apathy to dependence;
> 8. from dependence back into bondage.
>
> So WHERE are we, citizens of the United States in the historically
> proven Life Cycle of Nations?
To try and bring this back to a Jewish topic. Where is the Jewish
people on that "historically proven" Life Cycle of Nations? We've
been around a lot more than 200 years. Heck, We've been around a lot
more than 2 _thousand_ years.
I read an interestng article yesterday in Mishpacha magazine. Rabbi
Moshe Grylak wrote aboute Sarah's laughter at the news of Isaac's
birth and her subsequent laghter after he was born. The gist of the
article is that the Jews are _different_ from all other peoples of
the world. The Rules of History do not apply to the Jewish People.
That's why Isaac was born when Abraham was 100 and Sarah was 90.
He was to found a nation _not_ under the normal Rules of how the
world "works" so his _birth_ was contrary to how the world works.
I recommend the article heartily.
lee
> [ Moderator's Comment: We have drifted well off-topic HPG ]
>
> "Steve Goldfarb" <s...@panix.com> wrote:
Hey I dont like that list, it looks like you guys are around 6-7 & we
are 7-8
Amitai
> Nick Cramer <n_cramerS...@pacbell.net> writes:
> > [ Moderator's Comment: We have drifted well off-topic HPG ]
>
> I'll try to take it back.
>
> > 'The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning
> > of history, has been about 200 years.' 'During those 200 years, those
> > nations always progressed through the following sequence:
>
> > 1. from bondage to spiritual faith;
> > 2. from spiritual faith to great courage;
> > 3. from courage to liberty;
> > 4. from liberty to abundance;
> > 5. from abundance to complacency;
> > 6. from complacency to apathy;
> > 7. from apathy to dependence;
> > 8. from dependence back into bondage.
>
> > So WHERE are we, citizens of the United States in the historically
> > proven Life Cycle of Nations?
>
> To try and bring this back to a Jewish topic. Where is the Jewish
> people on that "historically proven" Life Cycle of Nations? We've
> been around a lot more than 200 years. Heck, We've been around a lot
> more than 2 _thousand_ years.
>
If, after two thousand years of exile, we have lost the imperative to
gather in a territory of our own, with a language of out own, under
our own government, we have lost the defining characteristics of a
nation, haven't we become a loose federation of communities with a
more or less common religion and traditions, and a collective memory
of haviing once been a nation long ago?
Amitai
lee
You could almost be talking about the Irish there. Which is probably
why listening to the Pogues or other Irish music on my walkman often
makes me think about Israel & jewish history
cindys
snip
>
> You could almost be talking about the Irish there. Which is probably
> why listening to the Pogues or other Irish music on my walkman often
> makes me think about Israel & jewish history
Hey, not to go further off-topic, but as an aside, my yeshiva bochur
son is really into Irish river music. I don't if it makes him think
about Israel or Jewish history, though.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.