Perhaps I should just adopt a hebrew surname
lee
& how it can be veiwed as symbolic of the divine becoming profane
(sort of)
& was wondering about my family name Schotness & how we think but dont
know that the paperwork was obtained cheaply or fraudulently in Russia
Thinking it was a yiddish joke meaning the paperwork wasnt kosher, but
perhaps its a bit more subtle than that. Or perhaps not.
mirjam
is very interesting term, it means mixing together 2 things that
shouldn`t be mixed,
like wool and linen.
When i started Studing weaving , i learned that way to make a
towel is using 2 kinds of threads, for the warp one uses a stronger
thread that shrinks very tightly when first washed, for the weft one
uses a more looser thread that doesn`t shrink so much and thus when
the warp shrinks, the weft makes the [towel`s] loops.
Since there are many rules and laws in the Tancah that are
reasonable and take natural phenomenas into consideration, it might be
that this is part of the solution.
mirjam
mirjam
Sha`atnez IS A HEBREW name .
mirjam
mm
wrote:
I think it's an honor to have that name. It would be nice to know the
whole story, but whatever possible story you look at, if it was a pun
or a joke or a hidden message, it's a Hebrew and Yiddish word and to
me it shows that your ancestor, either when last names were first
adopted, or if you are implying it was later, in some exigency,
he/they chose a Hebrew name, and maybe did so with a sense of humor.
I wouldnt be worred about what the Kabbala, or someone trying to
interpret Kabbala says about shatnez. There are lots of ways to look
at everything. And you're not wearing shatnez, which is prohibited.
You ARE Schotness, which is not prohibited at all.
--
Meir
"The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
mm
wrote:
> The word Sha`atnez [shin, ayin, tet,nun,zayin].
>is very interesting term, it means mixing together 2 things that
>shouldn`t be mixed,
>like wool and linen.
But it's only wool and linen, right? I remember one person here asked
about wool and polyester. :)
> When i started Studing weaving , i learned that way to make a
>towel is using 2 kinds of threads, for the warp one uses a stronger
>thread that shrinks very tightly when first washed, for the weft one
>uses a more looser thread that doesn`t shrink so much and thus when
>the warp shrinks, the weft makes the [towel`s] loops.
> Since there are many rules and laws in the Tancah that are
>reasonable and take natural phenomenas into consideration, it might be
>that this is part of the solution.
>mirjam
I don't think they make towels out of wool and linen, but if they did,
it would be okay right, because towels arent' garments, they're not
worn, only used.
Micha Berger
> I was reading something about shatnez from a kabbalic point of veiw
> & how it can be veiwed as symbolic of the divine becoming profane
> (sort of)
It could be viewed in numerous ways. However, I would rule out those
that make shaatnez negative in all settings, since the kohein gadol's
belt/girdle was made of purple, blue and scarlet wool (of particular dyes)
interwoven with 6-fold thread linen. Also, his shirt (kesones tashbeitz)
was made of linen, and since it can't be removed without removing the
vest/apron (me'il) of blue wool, that combination too would qualify as
shaatnes (according to the Rama YF 300:4, following the J-m Talmud).
Whatever is wrong with shaatnez, it has to be specific to the world
outside of Temple service.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger When you come to a place of darkness,
mi...@aishdas.org you don't chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org You light a candle.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l
fla...@verizon.net
On 11-Nov-2009, mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:11:50 +0000 (UTC), mirjam <mir...@actcom.co.il>
> wrote:
>
> > The word Sha`atnez [shin, ayin, tet,nun,zayin].
> >is very interesting term, it means mixing together 2 things that
> >shouldn`t be mixed,
> >like wool and linen.
>
> But it's only wool and linen, right? I remember one person here asked
> about wool and polyester. :)
I can't tell you how many gentiles I have had to correct on this point.
Susan
lee
had no idea what it was, before I started frequenting here.
Just as well I dont like either fabric.
My mum used to buy me these horribly itchy woolen knit pants for shul
& other events where I had to behave.
Just as well for shaatnez otherwise I'm sure she would have bought me
a scratch linen shirt to go with the pants.
btw the yiddish family name was something like guntelmakker,
Which Mirjam, I think. told me might mean girdlemaker
but nobody in the family really knows now
Joe Bruno
I am contemplating changing my own last name back to what my
Grandfather's was when he came to America from Russia.It was
pronounced "Tandofsky". My Russian heritage is very important to me.
mm
wrote:
>Would it suprise you to learn I'd only vaguely heard of Shaatnez,
>had no idea what it was, before I started frequenting here.
>Just as well I dont like either fabric.
Well, afaik, you can wear one garment of wool and a different one of
linen at the same time. You should get started now.
>My mum used to buy me these horribly itchy woolen knit pants for shul
>& other events where I had to behave.
My brother especially didn't like wool clothes, probably still
doesn't. If you get wool/polyester blends, I think he tmoths won't
eat them. Plus I think they don't wrinkle as much. Well worth it. I
don't know if this blend makes other people itch, but not me.
>Just as well for shaatnez otherwise I'm sure she would have bought me
>a scratch linen shirt to go with the pants.
But like I say, you can do that.
>btw the yiddish family name was something like guntelmakker,
>Which Mirjam, I think. told me might mean girdlemaker
>but nobody in the family really knows now
This shouldn't be a secret.
Micha Berger
> Well, afaik, you can wear one garment of wool and a different one of
> linen at the same time. You should get started now.
Only if you could remove either without removing both.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
mm
wrote:
This reminds me of a story. One man met another, or a woman if you
like that story better, at a party, and he was telling her, My name is
Shmulovitz. But that wasn't our name in Europe.
So how did your name get changed.
Well my father's name was Baron, but when he got to America, he wanted
a really American name, and he was walking down Rivington Street (on
the Lower East Side) and he saw a store with a sign that said
"Shmulovitz", a really American name.
I can't remember if this story is true or not. I can't remmber the
new name exactly, only the original name.
So, how did your name get changed from Tandofsky to Bruno?
maxine in ri
Perhaps your family mixed together legal and fraudulent paperwork to
get out of Russia. If they did, wear your name with pride, since they
made it out by their wits.
maxine in ri
fla...@verizon.net
On 11-Nov-2009, mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> My brother especially didn't like wool clothes, probably still
> doesn't. If you get wool/polyester blends, I think he tmoths won't
> eat them. Plus I think they don't wrinkle as much. Well worth it. I
> don't know if this blend makes other people itch, but not me.
Wool/poly always seems itchier to me than regular wool.
Then again, it all depends on the weave when it comes to
pure wool.
Susan
mm
Absolutely. And better put than what I was trying to say.
>maxine in ri
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mirjam <mir...@actcom.co.il> wrote:
>
>> The word Sha`atnez [shin, ayin, tet,nun,zayin].
>>is very interesting term, it means mixing together 2 things that
>>shouldn`t be mixed, like wool and linen.
>
> But it's only wool and linen, right? I remember one person here asked
> about wool and polyester. :)
In clothing it's only wool and linen. But their are rules of
forbidden mixtures of plants and animals as well.
>> When i started Studing weaving , i learned that way to make a
>>towel is using 2 kinds of threads, for the warp one uses a stronger
>>thread that shrinks very tightly when first washed, for the weft one
>>uses a more looser thread that doesn`t shrink so much and thus when
>>the warp shrinks, the weft makes the [towel`s] loops.
>> Since there are many rules and laws in the Tancah that are
>>reasonable and take natural phenomenas into consideration, it might
>>be that this is part of the solution.
I didn't follow this. :-(
> I don't think they make towels out of wool and linen, but if they
> did, it would be okay right, because towels arent' garments,
> they're not worn, only used.
I suspect they would be forbidden since they are used *on the body*.
Josh, Meir b?
--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
Well, Micha has posted that the belt or "girdle" of the Kohen Gadol
had Shatnez in it.
lee
> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:49:57 +0000 (UTC), lee <schotn...@gmail.com>
its not a secret,
it was my great grandads generation who came over from Russia sometime
before the turn of the 20th century.
& it turns out none of my cousins etc know the original yiddish name
for definite,
nor did even my dad or his brothers.
For the life of me I dont know why noone thought to find out when they
still could.
& its too late to ask any of my dads generation now either.
Joe Bruno
> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:00:28 +0000 (UTC), Joe Bruno <joebr...@usa.com>
Joe Bruno is a nym.
I've told everyone that before.
I'll keep my real name to myself. It's none of your business.
lee
>
> Well, Micha has posted that the belt or "girdle" of the Kohen Gadol
> had Shatnez in it.
>
> --
grandad was a tailor, dont know about his dad, but a lot of Jews from
the east end of London were.
Micha Berger
>> Well, Micha has posted that the belt or "girdle" of the Kohen Gadol
>> had Shatnez in it.
> I was thinking girdle as in womens gidles with whalebones? in them. My
> grandad was a tailor, dont know about his dad, but a lot of Jews from
> the east end of London were.
I don't know the right word, since I'm not sure what it looked like.
"Girdle" is what many translations call it. I think my grade school
rebbe would probably have called it a "gartle", a rope belt. (Like the
kind many Hungarian and Chassidic Jews put on before prayer, including
said rebbe.) I'm picturing something like a wimple, the 3 to 5 inch wide
ribbon, yards long, that German Jews wrap (and wrap and wrap) around
a sefer Toraah to keep it closed, but that too may be wrong. For all I
know, it was more like a cumberbund.
But you get the idea.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Time flies...
mi...@aishdas.org ... but you're the pilot.
http://www.aishdas.org - R' Zelig Pliskin
Fax: (270) 514-1507
Amitai
> mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> writes:
> > mirjam <mir...@actcom.co.il> wrote:
>
> >> The word Sha`atnez [shin, ayin, tet,nun,zayin].
> >>is very interesting term, it means mixing together 2 things that
> >>shouldn`t be mixed, like wool and linen.
>
> > But it's only wool and linen, right? I remember one person here asked
> > about wool and polyester. :)
>
> In clothing it's only wool and linen. But their are rules of
> forbidden mixtures of plants and animals as well.
I am taking the liberty of correcting Mirjam's typos below and
amplifying slightly.
I hope it does not foul up the format.
> >> When i started studying weaving , I learned that the way to make a
> >> towel is using 2 kinds of thread. For the warp ["shati" in Hebrew] one
> >> uses a stronger thread that shrinks very tightly when first washed, for the > >>weft {"erev"] one uses a looser thread that doesn`t shrink so much and
> >> thus when the warp shrinks, the weft makes the [towel`s] loops.
> >> Since there are many rules and laws in the Tanakh that are
> >> reasonable and take natural phenomenas into consideration, it might
> >> be that this is part of the solution.
>
> I didn't follow this. :-(
>
Miriam is following R. Shimon, who "doresh tama di-qra" (rules
according to scrptural intention) rather the majority opinion that
these rules are "gzerat ha-katubh" (scriptural decrees, the reasons
behind which are none of our business).
If I understand her correctly, she is saying that the rule against
sha`atnez may have arisen because weaving wool and flax causes the
fabric to loop. This phenomenon is not limited to towels, but to
garments as well, and may make them inconvenient to wear.
Amitai
mirjam
It originaly was only Wool and linnen , but i hear that now quite some
people say/believe it is everything Growing from ground like Cotton
and everything `Animal made` [ wool , silk ]
there are different groups,,,,
mirjam
mirjam
it all depends on the handling
wool is hair and as such should be washed with hair shampoo , i have
sweaters that are 30+ years old that still look fine and feel like a
cloud .
Suits were treated with Steaming irons after being sewn , which left
lots of the calcium of the water in the clothes- hence the
scratching .
As to linnen , when properly treated is another Soft dream ,,, only
problem , it needs loads of ironing .
mirjam
lee
> Fax: (270) 514-1507
I've still got my dads velvet cumerbund & clip on bow tie that he wore
to my bar mitzvah party
(who said jews or the 70s were ostentatious & tacky?)
I keep it in his shul tallis bag
along with I think from the size of it the yalmulka I wore for my bar
mitzvah & his teffilin.
Well I'm not sure if they are his or his dads or my mums dads I dont
recall ever seeing my dad wearing them.
Which I must find out how to put on one day
lee
Perhaps its just me, being just very irritable!
lee
Mixing the animate with the non animate, like mixing milk & meat?
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>
>> Well, Micha has posted that the belt or "girdle" of the Kohen Gadol
>> had Shatnez in it.
>> --
> I was thinking girdle as in womens gidles with whalebones?
Think of something that "girds the loins".
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> writes:
>> > mirjam <mir...@actcom.co.il> wrote:
>>
>> >> The word Sha`atnez [shin, ayin, tet,nun,zayin].
>> >>is very interesting term, it means mixing together 2 things
>> >>that shouldn`t be mixed, like wool and linen.
>>
>> > But it's only wool and linen, right? I remember one person
>> > here asked about wool and polyester. :)
>>
>> forbidden mixtures of plants and animals as well.
>
> I am taking the liberty of correcting Mirjam's typos below and
> amplifying slightly. I hope it does not foul up the format.
>
>> >> When i started studying weaving , I learned that the way to make a
>> >> towel is using 2 kinds of thread. For the warp ["shati" in Hebrew] one
>> >> uses a stronger thread that shrinks very tightly when first washed,
>> >> for the weft {"erev"] one uses a looser thread that doesn`t shrink so
>> >> much and thus when the warp shrinks, the weft makes the [towel`s] loops.
>> >> Since there are many rules and laws in the Tanakh that are
>> >> reasonable and take natural phenomenas into consideration, it might
>> >> be that this is part of the solution.
>>
>> I didn't follow this. :-(
>>
> Miriam is following R. Shimon, who "doresh tama di-qra" (rules
> according to scrptural intention) rather the majority opinion that
> these rules are "gzerat ha-katubh" (scriptural decrees, the reasons
> behind which are none of our business).
>
> If I understand her correctly, she is saying that the rule against
> sha`atnez may have arisen because weaving wool and flax causes the
> fabric to loop. This phenomenon is not limited to towels, but to
> garments as well, and may make them inconvenient to wear.
>
> Amitai
Thanks, I think I got it now.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
Very intersting and surprising. The normative halacha is _very_
clear. _Only_ wool and linnen.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> On 12 Nov, 12:27, mirjam <mir...@actcom.co.il> wrote:
>
>> It originaly was only Wool and linnen , but i hear that now quite some
>> people say/believe it is everything Growing from ground like Cotton
>> and everything `Animal made` [ wool , silk ]
>> there are different groups,,,,
>
Umm, milk also comes from "animate". And by the time it's ready to be cooked,
meat is "non animate".
lee
I thought milk was considered the life force or sustaining force as
opposed to meat which is now no longer alive. Milk being animate, meat
being non animate. Isnt the phrase 'the quick & the dead'?
mm
wrote:
>On 12 Nov, 13:56, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
Wrong newsgroup. :) Wiki says "The Quick and the Dead is an English
phrase originating in the Christian Bible and popularized by the
Apostles' Creed, one of the earliest statements of faith in the
Christian religion and still one of the most widely used in worship.
1 Peter 4:3-5"
It's also a 1995 western film starring Sharon Stone, Gene Hackman, and
Russell Crowe, and a 1987 TV movie, and a 1978 documentary film (orig.
title: One by One, released in 1975) about the deadliness of Grand
Prix racing. Hence the name.
So there are plenty of ways to lose track of the xian origin.
Not to be confused with "The quick and the daft" the nineteenth song
on the 2007 remastered version of the 1977 album Out of the Blue by
Electric Light Orchestra.
I've never heard about milk being the life force either. ONe can't mix
milk and meat together but those statements in Torah don't
characterize a calf's mother's milk.
Rather "The blood is the life". Deut. 12:23. Or near there.
mm
wrote:
>On Nov 11, 5:09 pm, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
No one reads every post, and if I read it I forgot. So sue me.
>I'll keep my real name to myself. It's none of your business.
You brought the topic of changing your name up yourself. I didn't
even ask you what your real name is. I thought it was Bruno. I don't
care if you don't give a real name here. I don't give any last name at
all.
But even though we argue in some threads, I thought this could be a
nice thread. That's why I told the anecdote first about name
changing.
"It's none of your business" is generally considered rude and intended
to be hostile. The sentence before it was enough. Why do you want to
sound hostile to me in a friendly thread?
It would still be interesting to know why your family name got changed
from Tandofsky. No need to say what it got changed to, but if you
don't want to say, you brought the name change up and please don't now
tell me it's none of my business.
lee
> On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:17:32 +0000 (UTC), lee <schotn...@gmail.com>
Actually I just remembered where I got the quick & the dead from, its
from Howard Jacobson's Kalooki Nights, not quite a from the Talmudic.
But a Jewish writer from Manchester, discussing kashrut in the novel
Harry Weiss
I never heard that. wool/cotton mixtures are just fine as would silk and
linen.
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
Micha Berger
> I never heard that. wool/cotton mixtures are just fine as would silk and
> linen.
Halachically yes. But I was told my Chassidic friends (one Lub, one
Belz) that there are Qabbalistic issues.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
mm
That's why it's important to learn Qabbala before Halacha, so one
doesn't miss such things.
(that was sarcasm.)
mirjam
Well , if you think about the partly diferent Chametz deffinitions ,
for people in different Diasporas , [ some eat rice , some don`t] ,
you will see that Some Halacha rules were adjusted to the
possibilities of the suroundings. The wearing of ceratin matetrials
[cottons, wools , silk, ceratin colours etc] was regulated in certain
countries, and the population was told what they were allowed top
wear , sometime even how many clothes they were allowed to have. The
famous 100 year, started because England and Belgium fought over the
Wool trade rights. The same {arliament that issued the famous Magna
Carta , also restricted people from wearing too much cotton , because
it took away part of the bread winning of the Wool Cottage industry.
Thus Jews had to adjust to this local possibilities, hence the
`change` in the Sha`atnez laws.
mirjam
lee
Micha Berger
>>Harry Weiss <hjw...@panix.com> wrote:
>>> I never heard that. wool/cotton mixtures are just fine as would silk and
>>> linen.
>>Halachically yes. But I was told my Chassidic friends (one Lub, one
>>Belz) that there are Qabbalistic issues.
> That's why it's important to learn Qabbala before Halacha, so one
> doesn't miss such things.
> (that was sarcasm.)
Why the sarcasm. Nearly all of us take steps beyond halakhah for
Qabbalistic reasons. When you wake up in the morning, do you wash each
hand once, or do you do it in some particular order? And before going
to sleep, to you say "Liyshuasekha kivisi H'" in various orders? What
about the four angels? Or, do you just say Shema and hamapil?
I can bring dozens of examples between the two...
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure.
mi...@aishdas.org It preserves health, promotes convalescence,
http://www.aishdas.org and helps us cope with adversity.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei"
Amitai
Amitai
lee
Sorry I just assumed it was an abbreviation like Lub
mm
Berger) wrote:
>mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>>Harry Weiss <hjw...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>> I never heard that. wool/cotton mixtures are just fine as would silk and
>>>> linen.
>
>>>Halachically yes. But I was told my Chassidic friends (one Lub, one
>>>Belz) that there are Qabbalistic issues.
>
>> That's why it's important to learn Qabbala before Halacha, so one
>> doesn't miss such things.
>> (that was sarcasm.)
>
>Why the sarcasm.
Because I said "before Halacha". First learn Quabbala and after that,
learn Halacha. Like it seems so many people in Hollywood and someone
I know personally are doing.
> Nearly all of us take steps beyond halakhah for
>Qabbalistic reasons. When you wake up in the morning, do you wash each
>hand once, or do you do it in some particular order? And before going
>to sleep, to you say "Liyshuasekha kivisi H'" in various orders? What
>about the four angels? Or, do you just say Shema and hamapil?
>
>I can bring dozens of examples between the two...
>
>Tir'u baTov!
>-Micha
--
Meir
Amitai
"Mayn Shtetele Belz" (there is also a Polish version) that has become
so popular that it attained folk-song status almost immediately after
it was composed early in the last cemtury.
The song can be found in Yiddish (English transcription) with an
English translation in
http://www.tzipi.com/lyricsy.html#4
There are numerous clips of it on U-tube. Just Google "Shtetele Belz U-
tube".
Amitai
mm
wrote:
>On 16 Nov, 13:50, Amitai <chr0...@techunix.technion.ac.il> wrote:
Wiki:
Belz (Ukrainian: ????, Polish: Be?z, Yiddish/Hebrew: ????), a small
town in the Lviv Oblast (province) of western Ukraine, near the border
with Poland, is located between the Solokiya river (affluent of the
Bug river, called Western Bug) and the Rzeczyca stream. [the question
marks are it written in Ukanian and Yiddish.]
The current estimated population is 2408 (as of 2004).
Belz is a Hasidic dynasty named for the town of Belz, a small town in
Western Ukraine. The town has existed since at least the 10th century
with the Jewish community being established during the 14th century.
In 1665 Jews in Belz obtained equal rights and duties. The town became
home to Hasidim in the early 19th century. At the beginning of World
War I Belz had 6,100 inhabitants, of which 3,600 were Jewish.
I wonder if the actor, Richard Belzer, and other Belzers, are
descended from Belzer Hassidim, or only from someone who came from
Belz?
I have a friend named Bober, and I wonder if his name descends somehow
from Bobover (Rather than Bobowa, the town).
BTW, all, is the geberne in Vilna Geberne (Vilna province) a cognate
with "government"?
Richard Jay Belzer (born August 4, 1944) is an American stand-up
comedian, writer, and actor, perhaps best known for his work as Sgt.
John Munch on Homicide: Life on the Street and Law & Order: Special
Victims Unit. Jewish of course, and I"m almost sure his tv character
is Jewish.
Barry Levinson, executive director of Homicide, said Belzer was a
"lousy actor" during his audition when he first read lines from the
script for "Gone for Goode", the first episode in the series.[2]
Levinson asked Belzer to take some time to reread and practice the
material, then come back and read it again. During his second reading,
Levinson said Belzer was "still terrible", but that the actor
eventually found confidence in his performance.[3] [Someone is
leaving something out there. He's terrible twice but he still hired
him!]
Munch has become the only fictional character, played by a single
actor, to appear on nine different television shows. These shows were
on four different networks: NBC (Homicide: Life on the Street, Law &
Order, Law & Order: Special Victims Unit, Law & Order: Criminal
Intent, and "Law & Order: Trial by Jury"); Fox (The X-Files; Arrested
Development); UPN (The Beat); and HBO (The Wire). [I don't think
different kinds of Law and Order are different shows.]
lee
> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:43:27 +0000 (UTC), lee <schotn...@gmail.com>
Thanks I found all that after I realized it wasn't an abbreviation,
interesting story about the escape thru Hungary!