Sharon's War Against Children
Fiona
More from the Child Catcher Dept <xref. Chitty Chitty Bang Bang> of the
State of Israel (and what a state it is in):
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=86601
Child Welfare Services to Take Gaza Children to Shelters
14:10 Jul 27, '05 / 20 Tammuz 5765
(IsraelNN.com) At a meeting in Jaffa yesterday (Tuesday), state social
workers were informed of the plans by the Ministry of Social Welfare to
handle the children of those Jewish families forced to uproot from Gush
Katif and northern Samaria. According to the ministry's plans, children over
two years old will have to be voluntarily transferred to the custody of a
relative, or child welfare services will take the children to
specially-prepared shelters. As for children under two years old, the state
will allow them to face arrest with their parents, according to the ministry
officials who addressed the gathering.
The social workers were asked to volunteer for the work of caring for the
uprooted children. It was made clear to them that the work was entirely
optional and that only two shelters were being made available for the
duration, in the hope that most parents would rather voluntarily sign their
children over to relatives.
Upon being informed of the ministry plans, many social workers expressed
outrage, with some asking by what legal right can the state remove children
from parents who are not considered incompetent. To that question, the
official replied, "Ask Prime Minister Sharon, he is the current Welfare
Minister..."
Fiona
J J Levin
news:dc861s$gqt$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk...
I know I'm going to get into trouble here and probably be labeled a
Communist or worse...... but would you support the Palestinian Authority's
Social Welfare department (if they have one) removing children from
Palestinian homes if the parents send them out to stone Israeli soldiers?
Conversely, do you really think that 4, 6, and 8-year olds should be
present when their parents are removed from Gaza? Would you subject your
child to that kind of trauma? If the parents leave the house quietly as a
family, OK. But some settlers have made it clear that they will resist, and
there may be screaming, yelling, and perhaps a parent being removed by 4
soldiers holding on to 4 of his/her limbs...
We're not talking about 17 year old children here. We are talking about 4
and 5 year olds being scared out of their wits.
Jay
Fiona
"J J Levin" <jjl...@optonline.net> wrote
> Conversely, do you really think that 4, 6, and 8-year olds should be
> present when their parents are removed from Gaza?
There is no justification for removing a child from its parent unless that
parent is abusing the child, there is even less justification for someone to
abuse both the child (by removing it from its parent) and the parent (by
removing their child). Even if you are about to beat the living sh*t out of
the parent, in the long term it is better that the child see how evil you
are, in a short sharp lesson, than for them to be taken from their parent
and to learn slowly about what you did to their family. But they aren't
going to forgive you either way, and they will never blame their parents for
defending their homes.
Have you ever had a child taken away from you? Believe me, being beaten to
pulp within an inch of your life is less painful. If the Israeli government
start taking children away by force, then they really will provoke a blood
bath - perhaps that's what they want, but it will backfire even the left -
except perhaps the hardest of the hardliners - can empathise with the
instinct to protect your children. So if the left (n.b. the social workers
in the article) empathise, how much more so the floating voters of the
centre.
Fiona
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
>
> More from the Child Catcher Dept <xref. Chitty Chitty Bang Bang> of the
> State of Israel (and what a state it is in):
>
> http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=86601
>
> Child Welfare Services to Take Gaza Children to Shelters
> 14:10 Jul 27, '05 / 20 Tammuz 5765
>
> (IsraelNN.com) At a meeting in Jaffa yesterday (Tuesday), state social
> workers were informed of the plans by the Ministry of Social Welfare to
> handle the children of those Jewish families forced to uproot from Gush
> Katif and northern Samaria. According to the ministry's plans, children over
> two years old will have to be voluntarily transferred to the custody of a
> relative, or child welfare services will take the children to
You mean like Lebensborn ? :-) [look it up on Google]
> specially-prepared shelters. As for children under two years old, the state
> will allow them to face arrest with their parents, according to the ministry
> officials who addressed the gathering.
>
> The social workers were asked to volunteer for the work of caring for the
> uprooted children. It was made clear to them that the work was entirely
> optional and that only two shelters were being made available for the
> duration, in the hope that most parents would rather voluntarily sign their
> children over to relatives.
Jawohl Herr Commandant!
Zey vere only obeying orders
>
> Upon being informed of the ministry plans, many social workers expressed
> outrage, with some asking by what legal right can the state remove children
> from parents who are not considered incompetent. To that question, the
> official replied, "Ask Prime Minister Sharon, he is the current Welfare
> Minister..."
>
Josh
>
>
> Fiona
>
>
>
J J Levin
>
>
> "J J Levin" <jjl...@optonline.net> wrote
>
>> Conversely, do you really think that 4, 6, and 8-year olds should be
>> present when their parents are removed from Gaza?
>
> There is no justification for removing a child from its parent unless that
> parent is abusing the child, there is even less justification for someone
> to
> abuse both the child (by removing it from its parent) and the parent (by
> removing their child). Even if you are about to beat the living sh*t out
> of
> the parent, in the long term it is better that the child see how evil you
> are, in a short sharp lesson, than for them to be taken from their parent
> and to learn slowly about what you did to their family.
All you do is teach those children to hate the state. Is that what you
want?
> But they aren't
> going to forgive you either way, and they will never blame their parents
> for
> defending their homes.
>
> Have you ever had a child taken away from you? Believe me, being beaten to
> pulp within an inch of your life is less painful. If the Israeli
> government
> start taking children away by force,
I understand that they are asking for children to be removed voluntarily to
relatives (if possible) only for the duration of the withdrawal.
Barring that, they are talking about shelters, also only for the duration of
the withdrawal. You make it sound as though this is a permanent removal. It
is not.
One easy way to prevent any trauma to the kids, BTW, is for the family to
move to Israel proper. This will happen anyway. You can do it painfully, or
you can do it less painfully.
The problem is that the settlers, for all their good intentions, will end up
splitting Israel into two camps. I know you'll blame Sharon., There is
always someone to blame. But think ahead 20 years. Twenty years from now
Sharon won't be around, but the hatred will.
Jay
Chano
<bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:dc8hnn$cia$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
> In article <dc861s$gqt$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk>, "Fiona"
> <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> writes:
> Jawohl Herr Commandant!
>
> Zey vere only obeying orders
You mean, zey vere only opaying orders!
Chano
>
> Josh
>
>
>>
>>
>> Fiona
>>
>>
>>
Fiona
"J J Levin" <jjl...@optonline.net> wrote
> "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote
> > "J J Levin" <jjl...@optonline.net> wrote
> >
> >> Conversely, do you really think that 4, 6, and 8-year olds should be
> >> present when their parents are removed from Gaza?
> >
> > There is no justification for removing a child from its parent unless
that
> > parent is abusing the child, there is even less justification for
someone
> > to
> > abuse both the child (by removing it from its parent) and the parent (by
> > removing their child). Even if you are about to beat the living sh*t out
> > of the parent, in the long term it is better that the child see how evil
you
> > are, in a short sharp lesson, than for them to be taken from their
parent
> > and to learn slowly about what you did to their family.
>
> All you do is teach those children to hate the state. Is that what you
> want?
Do you think you throw children out houses with gardens and near the sea,
where their families were happy, and dump them in tents and portacabins
where their whole families will be miserable (and probably unemployed) and
they won't grow up resenting what the state did to them?
Sometimes a state deserves the hatred it engenders in its citizens -
alliegence to a state is one thing, but subservience is a different thing
entirely.
> > But they aren't
> > going to forgive you either way, and they will never blame their parents
> > for
> > defending their homes.
> >
> > Have you ever had a child taken away from you? Believe me, being beaten
to
> > pulp within an inch of your life is less painful. If the Israeli
> > government
> > start taking children away by force,
>
>
> I understand that they are asking for children to be removed voluntarily
to
> relatives (if possible) only for the duration of the withdrawal.
> Barring that, they are talking about shelters, also only for the duration
of
> the withdrawal. You make it sound as though this is a permanent removal.
It
> is not.
Once they've taken them, permanent is no different to temporary. A month or
even a year might not seem like much to you (depending on how old you are),
but an hour is like an eternity years to a child. I find it totally
dispicable... actually I cannot find words for the disgust I feel about
this, that someone would use children as leverage against their parents.
> One easy way to prevent any trauma to the kids, BTW, is for the family to
> move to Israel proper. This will happen anyway. You can do it painfully,
or
> you can do it less painfully.
One easy way to prevent any trauma to the kids, BTW, is for the Sharon
government to abandon the Disengagement and act in accordance with the
mandate the people gave it. But lets not pretend that the Israeli government
cares a toss about the trauma it causes these people or their children.
> The problem is that the settlers, for all their good intentions, will end
up
> splitting Israel into two camps. I know you'll blame Sharon.,
Of course I'll blame Sharon and so will history, "the people" [tm] are not
pawns to be pushed around and sacrificed at the will of the oligarchy.
> There is always someone to blame.
Yes, isn't there? And it's always those damn bearded Jews. Why break a tried
and tested tradition, eh?
> But think ahead 20 years. Twenty years from now
> Sharon won't be around, but the hatred will.
And expelling people from their home on the whim of a lunatic dictator will
do nothing to reduce that.
Fiona
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
>
> <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
> news:dc8hnn$cia$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
>> In article <dc861s$gqt$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk>, "Fiona"
>> <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
>
>> Jawohl Herr Commandant!
>>
>> Zey vere only obeying orders
>
> You mean, zey vere only opaying orders!
Danke shein !
Josh
>
> Chano
>
>>
>> Josh
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Fiona
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
Lisa
J J Levin wrote:
> "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:dc8bv3$p09$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk...
> >
> >
> > "J J Levin" <jjl...@optonline.net> wrote
> >
> >> Conversely, do you really think that 4, 6, and 8-year olds should be
> >> present when their parents are removed from Gaza?
> >
> > There is no justification for removing a child from its parent unless that
> > parent is abusing the child, there is even less justification for someone
> > to
> > abuse both the child (by removing it from its parent) and the parent (by
> > removing their child). Even if you are about to beat the living sh*t out
> > of
> > the parent, in the long term it is better that the child see how evil you
> > are, in a short sharp lesson, than for them to be taken from their parent
> > and to learn slowly about what you did to their family.
>
> All you do is teach those children to hate the state. Is that what you
> want?
Jay. All children should be taught that the state exists to serve the
people, and never the other way around.
The citizens of Israel voted on the issue of the expulsions, and they
voted against it. There is no democratic representation going on here.
Lisa
yzk
> In article <dc861s$gqt$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk>, "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
>>(IsraelNN.com) At a meeting in Jaffa yesterday (Tuesday), state social
>>workers were informed of the plans by the Ministry of Social Welfare to
>>handle the children of those Jewish families forced to uproot from Gush
>>Katif and northern Samaria. According to the ministry's plans, children over
>>two years old will have to be voluntarily transferred to the custody of a
>>relative, or child welfare services will take the children to
>
>
>
> You mean like Lebensborn ? :-) [look it up on Google]
>
No. That effort by the Nazis, YSh"V, (to breed a Master Race, by pairing
up young pretty and healthy blonde blue-eyed girls and women with the
SS) was *TRULY* voluntary.
>
>
>>specially-prepared shelters. As for children under two years old, the state
>>will allow them to face arrest with their parents, according to the ministry
>>officials who addressed the gathering.
>>
>>The social workers were asked to volunteer for the work of caring for the
>>uprooted children. It was made clear to them that the work was entirely
>>optional and that only two shelters were being made available for the
>>duration, in the hope that most parents would rather voluntarily sign their
>>children over to relatives.
>
>
> Jawohl Herr Commandant!
You mean "Zu befehl, ...!" (it will be done)
>
> Zey vere only obeying orders
>
> Josh
Yaakov
Damien Sullivan
>Do you think you throw children out houses with gardens and near the sea,
>where their families were happy, and dump them in tents and portacabins
>where their whole families will be miserable (and probably unemployed) and
>they won't grow up resenting what the state did to them?
After all, the Palestinians were prevented from returning to the homes with
gardens and near the sae, where their families were happy, which they'd
fled during the war, were kept in miserable conditions first by Arab
governments and then by Israel, and have grown up resenting Israel.
On the other hand, the WWII Japanese-Americans have mostly moved on, AFAIK.
Not that they've forgotten, but life has gone on. And they didn't get as much
help as the settlers will be.
-xx- Damien X-)
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> bac...@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>
>>>(IsraelNN.com) At a meeting in Jaffa yesterday (Tuesday), state social
>>>workers were informed of the plans by the Ministry of Social Welfare to
>>>handle the children of those Jewish families forced to uproot from Gush
>>>Katif and northern Samaria. According to the ministry's plans, children over
>>>two years old will have to be voluntarily transferred to the custody of a
>>>relative, or child welfare services will take the children to
>>
>> You mean like Lebensborn ? :-) [look it up on Google]
>
> No. That effort by the Nazis, YSh"V, (to breed a Master Race, by
> pairing up young pretty and healthy blonde blue-eyed girls and
> women with the SS) was *TRULY* voluntary.
Did you lookit up on Google as Josh suggested? Besides the
"pairings" (what a euphamism), there were many cases of kidnapping
of young children who fit the model for the "master race". <shudder>
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
cindys
"Damien Sullivan" <pho...@ofb.net> wrote in message
news:dc93m2$ooh$1...@naig.caltech.edu...
> "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Do you think you throw children out houses with gardens and near the sea,
> >where their families were happy, and dump them in tents and portacabins
> >where their whole families will be miserable (and probably unemployed)
and
> >they won't grow up resenting what the state did to them?
>
> After all, the Palestinians were prevented from returning to the homes
with
> gardens and near the sae, where their families were happy, which they'd
> fled during the war, were kept in miserable conditions first by Arab
> governments and then by Israel, and have grown up resenting Israel.
Exactly, what "miserable" conditions has *Israel* imposed upon the so-called
"Palestinians?" Are these the "Palestinians" like Yasser Arafat who were in
fact Egyptians before they were *Palestinians?* Where in Israel exactly was
his "home by the garden" located?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Lisa
Damien Sullivan wrote:
> "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Do you think you throw children out houses with gardens and near the sea,
> >where their families were happy, and dump them in tents and portacabins
> >where their whole families will be miserable (and probably unemployed) and
> >they won't grow up resenting what the state did to them?
>
> After all, the Palestinians were prevented from returning to the homes with
> gardens and near the sae, where their families were happy, which they'd
> fled during the war, were kept in miserable conditions first by Arab
> governments and then by Israel, and have grown up resenting Israel.
The Arabs launched a genocidal war against Israel, and the so-called
Palestinians were fully supportive of this. Compare that to people who
don't care if the Arabs live their lives, so long as they don't try to
end ours.
> On the other hand, the WWII Japanese-Americans have mostly moved on, AFAIK.
> Not that they've forgotten, but life has gone on. And they didn't get as much
> help as the settlers will be.
I hear a lot about the supposed help that the deportees are supposed to
get. The hydroponic farms which bring so much in the way of revenue
into Dawlat Israil will be destroyed without compensation. And when
the home you've grown up in is destroyed and given to the very people
who've been attacking you all your life, money is poor compensation
indeed.
Lisa
J J Levin
news:zs6Ge.33718$Iv5....@fe02.lga...
>
> <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
> news:2005Jul2...@mm.huji.ac.il...
> | yzk <yaak...@verizon.net> writes:
> | > bac...@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:
> | >> "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> writes:
> | >>
> | >>>(IsraelNN.com) At a meeting in Jaffa yesterday (Tuesday), state
> social
> | >>>workers were informed of the plans by the Ministry of Social
> Welfare to
> | >>>handle the children of those Jewish families forced to uproot
> from Gush
> | >>>Katif and northern Samaria. According to the ministry's plans,
> children over
> | >>>two years old will have to be voluntarily transferred to the
> custody of a
> | >>>relative, or child welfare services will take the children to
> | >>
> | >> You mean like Lebensborn ? :-) [look it up on Google]
> | >
> | > No. That effort by the Nazis, YSh"V, (to breed a Master Race, by
> | > pairing up young pretty and healthy blonde blue-eyed girls and
> | > women with the SS) was *TRULY* voluntary.
> |
> | Did you lookit up on Google as Josh suggested? Besides the
> | "pairings" (what a euphamism), there were many cases of kidnapping
> | of young children who fit the model for the "master race".
> <shudder>
> |
> parallels between the Israeli government and the nazis to be
> incredibly disgusting and offensive. Bad enough that our enemies do
> it... Feh!
>
> Eliyahu
>
Very well said!!!
Jay
>
Fiona
"J J Levin" <jjl...@optonline.net> wrote
> "Eliyahu Rooff" <lro...@hotmail.com> wrote
> > Nonetheless, I, for one, find these constant efforts to show
> > parallels between the Israeli government and the nazis to be
> > incredibly disgusting and offensive. Bad enough that our enemies do
> > it... Feh!
>
> Very well said!!!
You are right to be disgusted, but you are directing it in the wrong
direction. No one should be allowed to emulate the practices of the Nazis an
be free from comparison. Just how similar to the Nazis and/or Judenrat does
someone's actions have to be before you will accept comparison?
And if Holocaust survivors themselves make the comparison (as many have) who
are you to dispute the comparison?
As no other nation's army and police force has forcibly sealed off a Jewish
neighbourhood and forcibly evicted the Jews of the neighbourhood against
their will since the Nazis, the comparison is valid. In fact we have a moral
duty to make the comparison.
If comparison to the Holocaust is taboo then the lessons cannot be learned,
and *Never Again* is neutered and becomes an empty catch phrase. How exactly
do you intend to identify someone who IS acting like the Nazis or their
Judenrat - and is therefore likely to bring the same consequences - if you
cannot compare them?
Your taboo will get us all killed.
Fiona
J J Levin
Fiona,
For all the contorsions in making this odious comparison appear valid, it is
quite abhorrent to compare the Nazis, who evicted Jews from their
neighborhoods to ghettos and thence to death camps, with the relocation of
Jews from Gaza to Israel proper, by the democratically elected government (I
know you disagree) of the State of Israel, as part of a process meant to
enhnace the security of the state (yes, I know you disagree) , and supported
by the majority of the citizens of the state (again, I know you disagree).
It is simply abhorrent. If you haven't read a book about the Nazis recently,
I can suggest one. You will then see how unbelievably horrendous and vile
these comparisons are. They do not add to your cause or to that of the
settlers.
Jay
Joel Shurkin
When was that?
J
--
Joel N. Shurkin
Baltimore, Maryland
On the web at: www.shurkin.us
and
http://cabbageskings.blogspot.com
http://yussel.blogspot.com
Joel Shurkin
>
>
> "J J Levin" <jjl...@optonline.net> wrote
>
>>"Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote
>>
>>>"J J Levin" <jjl...@optonline.net> wrote
>>>
>>>
>>>>Conversely, do you really think that 4, 6, and 8-year olds should be
>>>>present when their parents are removed from Gaza?
>>>
>>>There is no justification for removing a child from its parent unless
>
> that
>
>>>parent is abusing the child, there is even less justification for
>
> someone
>
>>>to
>>>abuse both the child (by removing it from its parent) and the parent (by
>>>removing their child). Even if you are about to beat the living sh*t out
>>>of the parent, in the long term it is better that the child see how evil
>
> you
>
>>>are, in a short sharp lesson, than for them to be taken from their
>
> parent
>
>>>and to learn slowly about what you did to their family.
>>
>>All you do is teach those children to hate the state. Is that what you
>>want?
>
>
> Do you think you throw children out houses with gardens and near the sea,
> where their families were happy, and dump them in tents and portacabins
> where their whole families will be miserable (and probably unemployed) and
> they won't grow up resenting what the state did to them?
What if those lovely gardens near the sea are surrounded by millions of
people who hate them, don't want them there, and are perfectly willing
to run through the fences to shoot them, or to shoot at cars carrying
them, or fire rockets into their beautiful gardens by the sea? And what
about the children of a couple of million others who have to risk their
lives to defend them? Jews survived because we have liquid assets. We
are capable of getting up off our asses and moving when we had to and we
survived and they will survive and your sympathy is pathetic.
J
Lisa
Joel Shurkin wrote:
> Lisa wrote:
> >
> > The citizens of Israel voted on the issue of the expulsions, and they
> > voted against it. There is no democratic representation going on here.
> >
> > Lisa
>
> When was that?
In the last elections. The issue of abandoning Gaza was the sole major
issue of the election, and the electorate spoke loudly.
The idea of a representative democracy is that the representatives are
intended to carry out the will of the voters. Otherwise, it's not
representative at all. And it's not as though anything has changed
between then and now (except, of course, Sharon's legal problems), so
no case can be made for Sharon having gone in a different direction due
to new information or conditions.
It was the one opportunity the electorate has had to speak on the
issue. Polls mean nothing. The polls all said that Sharon was going
to crush his opponents in the Likud referendum. The same polls now
claim that the citizens of Israel support (barely!) the planned crime.
And they don't even give the margin in favor for the expulsion that
they did for Sharon winning the Likud referendum.
The only solid information we have on what the citizens of the state
want is the results of the last election.
Joel, think. Really. You and I argue a lot, and sometimes it's
natural to just automatically reject what the other has said. But
think, honestly. Whether or not you think that getting out of Gaza is
a good thing, can you really say that this is a democratically sound
plan? Would you be as accepting of it had Sharon's plan been to annex
Gaza and expell the Arabs living there?
Lisa
Fiona
"J J Levin" <jjl...@optonline.net> wrote
> "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote
> For all the contorsions in making this odious comparison appear valid, it
is
> quite abhorrent to compare the Nazis, who evicted Jews from their
> neighborhoods to ghettos and thence to death camps, with the relocation of
> Jews from Gaza to Israel proper,
Firstly the comparison is primarily with the Judenrats, not the Nazis per
se. And when the Judenrats in Nazi Germany assisted the Nazis to deport the
Jews they did not know about what lay ahead, and assisted "the relocations"
because they thought compliance was for the best. Sharon's Judenrat is is
acting obeisense to the Quartet, he doesn't know what lies ahead, he has
presented no evidence to support his mantra that 'disengagment will bring
security' indeed all his military and secruty advisors have told that
disengagement will bring more violence, and he's ruining the lives of 8500
Jews in the process. Sharon may not be deporting them to death camps, but
their deportation bring annihilation of the State once step closer.
> by the democratically elected government (I know you disagree) of the
State
> of Israel,
I don't disagree they were elected democratially, but it is indisputable
that they were elected to do the opposite of what they are actually doing.
And by the way, Hitler was also democractically elected.
> as part of a process meant to enhnace the security of the state (yes, I
know
> you disagree),
Except no proof has been offered as to how exactly giving in to terror
attacks, giving the whole of Gaza to Hamas, and putting Ashkelon within
range of rocket attacks will improve security.
> and supported by the majority of the citizens of the state (again, I know
you
> disagree).
Except that the citizens of Israel voted overwhelmingly against
disengagement. Repetition of a lie does not make it true.
> It is simply abhorrent. If you haven't read a book about the Nazis
recently,
> I can suggest one. You will then see how unbelievably horrendous and vile
> these comparisons are. They do not add to your cause or to that of the
> settlers.
I'll ask again, just how similar to the Nazis and/or Judenrat does someone's
actions have to be before you will accept comparison?
Many times in history some Jews have acted unbelievably horrendously and
vilely against other Jews, why do you believe this generation is better than
last, or the generation of Herod, or the generation of Jezebel? We have to
make a stand against evil, wherever it comes from, but all you seem to be
doing is trying to make sure your team wins.
Fiona
J J Levin
news:dcb14c$pni$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
A day or two ago someone (Lisa?) said the explusion was contrary to Israeli
law. I asked which law. Didn't get an answer to that one either.
Jay
J J Levin
news:1122569142.3...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Joel Shurkin wrote:
>> Lisa wrote:
>> >
>> > The citizens of Israel voted on the issue of the expulsions, and they
>> > voted against it. There is no democratic representation going on here.
>> >
>> > Lisa
>>
>> When was that?
>
> In the last elections. The issue of abandoning Gaza was the sole major
> issue of the election, and the electorate spoke loudly.
>
> The idea of a representative democracy is that the representatives are
> intended to carry out the will of the voters. Otherwise, it's not
> representative at all. And it's not as though anything has changed
> between then and now (except, of course, Sharon's legal problems), so
> no case can be made for Sharon having gone in a different direction due
> to new information or conditions.
>
Sorry, the law is different than what you describe above. Sharon is under no
constraint to do or not do anything. Menachem Begin campaigned on the
promise of never to leave Yamit and Sinai (the Right prefers to forget that
one, since it was a rightist who did it). Sharon could try to change the
name of the State to Timbuktoo if he wanted to. There are checks and
balances, and the will of the electorate, between elections, is in the hands
of any 61 members who can fire Sharon and his government with a simple up or
down vote. Thus far the knesset has not seen fit to do so. I promise you
that if Sharon tried to change the country's name, he wold be opposed by
more than 61 MKs.
George W. Bush never campaigned on the promise to invade Iraq and stay there
for a few years. Had he done so, we would have had a different president
now. But he did so, and the only way he can be forced to get out is if the
Senate decides to take up an impeachment vote against him for doing that.
Does that make Bush a dictator? Hardly. Have you railed against him (perhaps
in another ng) for the 1700+ American soldiers killed in Iraq to date?
> It was the one opportunity the electorate has had to speak on the
> issue.
Wrong. See above. If enough people protested against the evacuation, you can
bet that there would have been found 61 opportunistic MKs who would have
voted Sharon out of office, knowing that they would swept into office in the
electios 90 days later. But you don't want to face the facts: most Israelis
want Israel out of the cancer called Gaza.
Polls mean nothing. The polls all said that Sharon was going
> to crush his opponents in the Likud referendum. The same polls now
> claim that the citizens of Israel support (barely!) the planned crime.
About 63% last weekend, after Kfar Maimon. Most US presidents in recent
memory were elected with far less than that. I don't recall any elections
in Israel where the majority party got 63%.
> And they don't even give the margin in favor for the expulsion that
> they did for Sharon winning the Likud referendum.
>
> The only solid information we have on what the citizens of the state
> want is the results of the last election.
Says you.
>
> Joel, think. Really. You and I argue a lot, and sometimes it's
> natural to just automatically reject what the other has said. But
> think, honestly. Whether or not you think that getting out of Gaza is
> a good thing, can you really say that this is a democratically sound
> plan?
If it were not, you would see many more protesters against the evacuation.
There were 20,000 demonstrators in Kfar Maimon. Even if you buy the 30,000
the right wing touts (doubtful), 0.5% of 6 million Jewish citizens (of a
total of about 7 million).
Would you be as accepting of it had Sharon's plan been to annex
> Gaza and expell the Arabs living there?
>
It would have been just as democratic. But you would have liked it better.
Jay
> Lisa
>
Fiona
"Joel Shurkin" <shu...@mac.com> wrote
> Fiona wrote:
> > "J J Levin" <jjl...@optonline.net> wrote
> >>All you do is teach those children to hate the state. Is that what you
> >>want?
> >
> > Do you think you throw children out houses with gardens and near the
sea,
> > where their families were happy, and dump them in tents and portacabins
> > where their whole families will be miserable (and probably unemployed)
and
> > they won't grow up resenting what the state did to them?
>
> What if those lovely gardens near the sea are surrounded by millions of
> people who hate them, don't want them there, and are perfectly willing
> to run through the fences to shoot them, or to shoot at cars carrying
> them, or fire rockets into their beautiful gardens by the sea? And what
> about the children of a couple of million others who have to risk their
> lives to defend them? Jews survived because we have liquid assets. We
> are capable of getting up off our asses and moving when we had to
True, those who are forced to flee from the goyim generally start again
elsewhere. But the residents of Gaza are not being forced to flee from
goying, they are being evicted by Jews. Big difference.
> and we
> survived and they will survive and your sympathy is pathetic.
You should try a little empathy, or can't you?
Fiona
J J Levin
Indeed. But Sharon has not outlawed any other parties, or made himself ruler
for life, or seized the media and banned any opposition newspapers.
>> as part of a process meant to enhnace the security of the state (yes, I
> know
>> you disagree),
>
> Except no proof has been offered as to how exactly giving in to terror
> attacks, giving the whole of Gaza to Hamas, and putting Ashkelon within
> range of rocket attacks will improve security.
>
>> and supported by the majority of the citizens of the state (again, I know
> you
>> disagree).
>
> Except that the citizens of Israel voted overwhelmingly against
> disengagement. Repetition of a lie does not make it true.
>
They did not. They voted for Sharon to be theeir PM. He is their PM. They
can recall him.
The electorate did not vote against disengagement. Repetition of a lie does
not make it true.
Jay
yaakov_...@hotmail.com
the army is considering dynamiting (G-d forbid) the synagogues
of Gush Katif because it is easier than bulldozing them.
This is being done for the good of Israel and its people.
---> Do you know that on the night of 9-10 November 1938
(the night of the "Kristallnacht" pogrom)
in Germany, Austria, and the Sudetenlan, THE VERY
SAME DISCUSSION WAS HELD? The discussion was
held because this was felt to be for the good of Germany
and its people.
(2) Police Minister Gidon Ezra in an interview in Makor Rishon
says he expects there to be an INCREASE in terrorism
after the (G-d forbid) withdrawal from Gaza, but, even though
Jews have to die (G-d forbid), it is for a greater good.
Sharon said after the massacre at the Dolphinarium
(20+ Jews murdered) that he had promised Bush that
he wouldn't respond. Hundreds more were murdered
before Sharon was forced by public pressure to respond
after the Pesach Nite Massacre in Netanya.
In other words, Jews have to die
for a greater good as far as the gov't is concerned.
Sharon (and Ha'aretz for that matter) have stated
only the gov't can look at the big picture so decisions
like this have to be made and we common people
have no right to criticize them for decisions like this..
we just have to assume that they are doing this for
the greater good.
---> 1930's, 1940's in Europe, discussions are held pointing
out that for the greater good, Jews have to die. This has
to be done for the greater good of mankind. Those who
did it said they were working for the good of mankind.
They only wanted good. They said we should look
at the big picture.
I am not "making comparisons". I am pointing out
historical facts. Draw your own conclusions about
the morality of those making these decisions.
Fiona
"J J Levin" <jjl...@optonline.net> wrote
> "Lisa" <li...@starways.net> wrote
> > It was the one opportunity the electorate has had to speak on the
> > issue.
>
> Wrong. See above. If enough people protested against the evacuation, you
can
> bet that there would have been found 61 opportunistic MKs who would have
> voted Sharon out of office, knowing that they would swept into office in
the
> electios 90 days later.
Come on Jay, you know the Israeli system better than that, MK have no
constituency once in power they represent no one but themselves - there is
no MK for Ramat Gan, or MK for Zikron Ya'akov you cannot get an audience
with your MK, 'cos you haven't got one - at best they can be said to
represent their party, but we can see from this Likud referendum fiasco,
they don't feel obliged to follow their party's decisions. Why should MKs
risk putting their jobs on the line by inducing a new election? The only
time an Israeli MK goes to the polls willingly is when he thinks his party
(and thus himself) will do better. Once Sharon embarked on this suicidal
course the Likud MKs knew that public trust them again so quickly, thus they
stood to hang on to their jobs longer by playing Uncle Tom to Sharon's
Massa.
Fiona
Joel Shurkin
>
>
> "J J Levin" <jjl...@optonline.net> wrote
>
>>"Eliyahu Rooff" <lro...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
>
>>>Nonetheless, I, for one, find these constant efforts to show
>>>parallels between the Israeli government and the nazis to be
>>>incredibly disgusting and offensive. Bad enough that our enemies do
>>>it... Feh!
>>
>>Very well said!!!
>
>
> You are right to be disgusted, but you are directing it in the wrong
> direction. No one should be allowed to emulate the practices of the Nazis an
> be free from comparison. Just how similar to the Nazis and/or Judenrat does
> someone's actions have to be before you will accept comparison?
Listen lady. Show me the concentration camps. The gas showers. The
ditches with the bodies in them. The children with their brains bashed
out on walls. The people standing at barbed wire fences starving to
death. The medical experiments. The destruction of a civilization.
Your comparison and the use of Nazi imagery by the opposition is
offensive, disgusting and seriously nauseating. Go wash your mouth.
J
>
> And if Holocaust survivors themselves make the comparison (as many have) who
> are you to dispute the comparison?
>
> As no other nation's army and police force has forcibly sealed off a Jewish
> neighbourhood and forcibly evicted the Jews of the neighbourhood against
> their will since the Nazis, the comparison is valid. In fact we have a moral
> duty to make the comparison.
>
> If comparison to the Holocaust is taboo then the lessons cannot be learned,
> and *Never Again* is neutered and becomes an empty catch phrase. How exactly
> do you intend to identify someone who IS acting like the Nazis or their
> Judenrat - and is therefore likely to bring the same consequences - if you
> cannot compare them?
>
> Your taboo will get us all killed.
>
>
> Fiona
>
>
>
Joel Shurkin
>
> Joel Shurkin wrote:
>
>>Lisa wrote:
>>
>>>The citizens of Israel voted on the issue of the expulsions, and they
>>>voted against it. There is no democratic representation going on here.
>>>
>>>Lisa
>>
>>When was that?
>
>
> In the last elections. The issue of abandoning Gaza was the sole major
> issue of the election, and the electorate spoke loudly.
That's not true, but never mind.
>
> The idea of a representative democracy is that the representatives are
> intended to carry out the will of the voters. Otherwise, it's not
> representative at all. And it's not as though anything has changed
> between then and now (except, of course, Sharon's legal problems), so
> no case can be made for Sharon having gone in a different direction due
> to new information or conditions.
In theory they are supposed to carry out the will of the voters, but as
has been remarked often, good ones don't when the need arises and
situations change. There is a quote from Edmund Burke I can't find that
explains it all. The situation has changed and the mindset has changed.
The representatives of the people, in vast numbers, have changed their
minds. Had they been sure of the will of the people they would have
changed governments. In a democracy, if you don't like what they do you
vote them out of office. You (or those over there) will have their chance.
>
> It was the one opportunity the electorate has had to speak on the
> issue. Polls mean nothing. The polls all said that Sharon was going
> to crush his opponents in the Likud referendum. The same polls now
> claim that the citizens of Israel support (barely!) the planned crime.
> And they don't even give the margin in favor for the expulsion that
> they did for Sharon winning the Likud referendum.
I'm always fascinated that the people who dislike the outcome of polls
(including me) always denounce them as worthless. People who like the
outcome think they are science. The Knesset is, by every standard I
know, now following the will of the people.
>
> The only solid information we have on what the citizens of the state
> want is the results of the last election.
>
> Joel, think. Really. You and I argue a lot, and sometimes it's
> natural to just automatically reject what the other has said. But
> think, honestly. Whether or not you think that getting out of Gaza is
> a good thing, can you really say that this is a democratically sound
> plan? Would you be as accepting of it had Sharon's plan been to annex
> Gaza and expell the Arabs living there?
The honest answer from me is 1) they shouldn't have been there in the
first place, 2) being there they should have been withdrawn years ago,
3) if one of my sons were in the IDF and stationed in Gaza I'd be
marching the streets in protest or have them shipped to France or
something, and 4) their complaints remind me of the old joke about the
guy who kills his parents and throws himself on the mercy of the court
because he is an orphan. And their use of the Nazi image has me so
turned off I don't at the moment give a crap what happens to them. I'll
recover.
J
>
> Lisa
Lisa
J J Levin wrote:
>
> A day or two ago someone (Lisa?) said the explusion was contrary to Israeli
> law. I asked which law. Didn't get an answer to that one either.
The Area of Jurisdiction and Powers Ordinance, paragraph 1 (Area of
application of law) reads as follows:
===============
Any law applying to the whole of the State of Israel shall be deemed to
apply to the whole of the area including both the area of the State of
Israel and any part of Palestine which the Minister of Defence has
defined by proclamation as being held by the Defence Army of Israel.
===============
The Law and Administration Ordinance, paragraph 11B (Application of
law) reads as follows:
===============
The law, jurisdiction and administration of the State shall extend to
any area of Eretz Ysrael designated by the Government by order.
===============
Understand, LAO 11B does not repeal AJPO 1. That law is still in
force. AJPO 1 adds to it by permitting the government to extend
Israeli jurisdiction over areas of Eretz Yisrael -- *even if they are
not currently under Israeli control*.
Note the various uses of "State of Israel" and "Land of Israel" in
these laws.
Section 97(b) of the Israeli Penal code reads as follows:
===============
A person who, with intent that any area be withdrawn from the
sovereignty of the State or placed under the sovereignty of a foreign
state, commits an act calculated to bring this about, is liable to the
death penalty or to imprisonment for life.
===============
Happy?
Lisa
Lisa
Joel Shurkin wrote:
> Lisa wrote:
>
> > Joel Shurkin wrote:
> >
> >>Lisa wrote:
> >>
> >>>The citizens of Israel voted on the issue of the expulsions, and they
> >>>voted against it. There is no democratic representation going on here.
> >>>
> >>>Lisa
> >>
> >>When was that?
> >
> > In the last elections. The issue of abandoning Gaza was the sole major
> > issue of the election, and the electorate spoke loudly.
>
> That's not true, but never mind.
Let's not never mind. Please, if you think otherwise, explain why.
> > The idea of a representative democracy is that the representatives are
> > intended to carry out the will of the voters. Otherwise, it's not
> > representative at all. And it's not as though anything has changed
> > between then and now (except, of course, Sharon's legal problems), so
> > no case can be made for Sharon having gone in a different direction due
> > to new information or conditions.
>
> In theory they are supposed to carry out the will of the voters, but as
> has been remarked often, good ones don't when the need arises and
> situations change.
But the situation hasn't changed. Qurei just announced that Gaza was a
prelude to Judea, Samaria and Jerusalem. What do you think has
changed?
> There is a quote from Edmund Burke I can't find that
> explains it all.
It's not necessary. As you can see in the post you were replying to,
I'd already considered that issue, and wrote "And it's not as though
anything has changed between then and now (except, of course, Sharon's
legal problems), so no case can be made for Sharon having gone in a
different direction due to new information or conditions."
> The situation has changed and the mindset has changed.
What situation has changed, and how?
Whose mindset has changed? If you mean the Arabs, please substantiate
the claim. Qurei's most recent statement says otherwise. If you mean
Sharon's, that's not a legitimate reason to defy the voters.
> The representatives of the people, in vast numbers, have changed their
> minds.
Says who? Certainly firing ministers who disagree with you is likely
to change a lot of minds, but the people themselves have not changed
their minds.
Furthermore, members of Knesset are not representatives of the people.
The parties are. As I think you're aware. In the US, representatives
of the people serve at the will of the people. Members of Knesset
serve at the will of whoever determines safe slots on the party list.
> Had they been sure of the will of the people they would have
> changed governments.
God... please tell me you're kidding. It would be nice to think that
even the US government would have that sort of integrity. But the
Knesset? They would never do such a thing. Ever.
> In a democracy, if you don't like what they do you
> vote them out of office. You (or those over there) will have their chance.
When an elected government goes so strongly against the expressed will
of the people, a decent concern for the will of their voters demands
that such a huge step as expelling 8,500 men, women and children from
their homes and destroying their businesses be brought before the
people.
> > It was the one opportunity the electorate has had to speak on the
> > issue. Polls mean nothing. The polls all said that Sharon was going
> > to crush his opponents in the Likud referendum. The same polls now
> > claim that the citizens of Israel support (barely!) the planned crime.
> > And they don't even give the margin in favor for the expulsion that
> > they did for Sharon winning the Likud referendum.
>
> I'm always fascinated that the people who dislike the outcome of polls
> (including me) always denounce them as worthless.
I'm simply pointing out that the polls on this issue have not been
right yet. That's observing the past. Predicting the future on the
basis of the past is hardly an exercise in self-serving bias. Be
reasonable.
> People who like the
> outcome think they are science. The Knesset is, by every standard I
> know, now following the will of the people.
They really aren't, Joel.
> > The only solid information we have on what the citizens of the state
> > want is the results of the last election.
> >
> > Joel, think. Really. You and I argue a lot, and sometimes it's
> > natural to just automatically reject what the other has said. But
> > think, honestly. Whether or not you think that getting out of Gaza is
> > a good thing, can you really say that this is a democratically sound
> > plan? Would you be as accepting of it had Sharon's plan been to annex
> > Gaza and expell the Arabs living there?
>
> The honest answer from me is 1) they shouldn't have been there in the
> first place,
Irrelevant to the question. I'm not talking about the specifics of the
situation; I'm talking about the anti-democratic way in which it is
being handled. I'm quite aware of your political bias here, and I
understand why you might be tempted to acquiesce to corruption and
tyranny that leads to your desired goals.
I'm asking you to try and forget the specifics of the situation, and to
judge the "democracy" of the process.
> 2) being there they should have been withdrawn years ago,
Still irrelevant, and we all know your take on the situation. They
moved there under the encouragement of democratically elected
governments, both from the left and from the right, and no one gave
them that permission after promising the voters not to. Their being
there is far more democratically sound than the deportation orders.
> 3) if one of my sons were in the IDF and stationed in Gaza I'd be
> marching the streets in protest or have them shipped to France or
> something, and
God *damn*, Joel. Can you stop obfuscating and answer the question?
Do you honestly think I'm unaware of the extent of your bias?
> 4) their complaints remind me of the old joke about the
> guy who kills his parents and throws himself on the mercy of the court
> because he is an orphan.
How so? It's an absurd thing to say, but maybe there's some logic
there that I've missed. How is it anything like that? It's not as if
they moved there against the wishes of the government. Far from it.
They received support and encouragement from both left wing and right
wing governments.
> And their use of the Nazi image has me so
> turned off I don't at the moment give a crap what happens to them. I'll
> recover.
As Fiona pointed out, the whole point of not forgetting what the Nazis
did was so that we could prevent any elements of it from happening
again.
I'm going to ask this one more time, and then just give up. Screw your
opinion of the settlements. Screw your opinion of the settlers. Screw
your fear and your lack of perspective. Can you really let your
political desires cause you to approve of the patently anti-democratic
means being used to achieve them?
Lisa
Ron Aaron
>===============
> A person who, with intent that any area be withdrawn from the
> sovereignty of the State or placed under the sovereignty of a foreign
> state, commits an act calculated to bring this about, is liable to the
> death penalty or to imprisonment for life.
>===============
>
> Happy?
Stop trying to confuse them with facts. You'll make their heads hurt.
--
Reva Forth - http://ronware.org/reva/
Lisa
Mida k'neged mida, my friend.
Lisa
Damien Sullivan
>something, and 4) their complaints remind me of the old joke about the
>guy who kills his parents and throws himself on the mercy of the court
>because he is an orphan.
My mother used that as the defining example of 'chutzpah' when I was a kid.
Which seems like a cue to introduce myself a bit. Half-Jewish, 4th generation
non-practicing Jew on my mother's side. It says something about Jewishness
that I can think of myself as Jewish but hardly ever think of myself as Irish
or descended from Catholics despite my father having been raised such (though
most of my music is Celtic, not that I was raised on such, my parents are the
classical types). But I was raised with close awareness of the Holocaust,
criticism of Israel ("after 2000 years of oppression you'd think we'd know
better than to pass it on"), and dreydels and Hanukkah stuff when I was small.
(Putting on a yarmulke, lighting menorah candles, reciting something including
"adonai" and "elohenu".) Plus Feynman and Einstein and Oppenheimer as role
models. And the people who raised my mother had a keen sense of ethnicity, if
not of Judaism. ("Oy! Look at her nose job.")
-xx- Damien X-)
"Chosen people -- chosen for what?!" -- me as a kid, contemplating the unhappy
history of 'my people'.
yaco...@aol.com
Joel Shurkin wrote:
> Listen lady. Show me the concentration camps. The gas showers. The
> ditches with the bodies in them. The children with their brains bashed
> out on walls. The people standing at barbed wire fences starving to
> death. The medical experiments. The destruction of a civilization.
MOre reduciton ada absurdum.
I can show you a Judenrat. I can show you Jews sellign out their
hrethren to placate a foreign power. I can show you complete lack of
unity or respect for those brethren wihtout political power. I can show
you return of the Land of Israel (IT IS PART OF IT, BIBLICALLY!!!)
WIHTOUT ANY "DEMOCTRATIC" or Jewish process.
I see your continued defense of the indefensible by dsetting yourself
up as an authority and trying to silence all opposition.
Nazi tactics do not require murder to be evil. You effectively
advocate being Amelia Badelia. If it is not EXACTLY the same set of
circumstances as the last war was, nobody should oppose them.
Ghetto mentality.
Jacko
Jackie
When Sharon campaigned against Labor on the grounds that the lands now to be
Judenfrei would be forever a part of Israel. That was the grounds on which
the most recent election was fought, but Sharon has backtracked completely
and has not only accepted Labor into the government but has adopted the
Labor Party's platform.
Jackie
.
Harry Weiss
> I understand that they are asking for children to be removed voluntarily to
> relatives (if possible) only for the duration of the withdrawal.
> Barring that, they are talking about shelters, also only for the duration of
> the withdrawal. You make it sound as though this is a permanent removal. It
> is not.
Just like the Yaldei Taiman?
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
Susan Cohen
"J J Levin" <jjl...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:Pf8Ge.982$6%2....@fe10.lga...
> "Lisa" <li...@starways.net> wrote in message
> news:1122569142.3...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>
> Would you be as accepting of it had Sharon's plan been to annex
>> Gaza and expell the Arabs living there?
>>
>
>
> It would have been just as democratic.
As in not.
> But you would have liked it better.
And you would have liked it less.
See how this works?
Susan
darr...@aol.com
> "Damien Sullivan" <pho...@ofb.net> wrote in message
> news:dc93m2$ooh$1...@naig.caltech.edu...
> > "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > >Do you think you throw children out houses with gardens and near the sea,
> > >where their families were happy, and dump them in tents and portacabins
> > >where their whole families will be miserable (and probably unemployed)
> and
> > >they won't grow up resenting what the state did to them?
> >
> > After all, the Palestinians were prevented from returning to the homes
> with
> > gardens and near the sae, where their families were happy, which they'd
> > fled during the war, were kept in miserable conditions first by Arab
> > governments and then by Israel, and have grown up resenting Israel.
> ------------
> Exactly, what "miserable" conditions has *Israel* imposed upon the so-called
> "Palestinians?" Are these the "Palestinians" like Yasser Arafat who were in
> fact Egyptians before they were *Palestinians?* Where in Israel exactly was
> his "home by the garden" located?
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
Sweet Larry Miller (comedian/pundit, not to be confused with GOY Dennis
Miller) said it best: "Before the Israelis won the land in war, Gaza
was owned by Egypt, and there were no "Palestinians" then, and the West
Bank was owned by Jordan, and there were no "Palestinians" then. As
soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big as
basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the "Palestinians," weeping
for their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation." eh
These are the same lovely Palestinians (aka Arabs - indistinguishable
from Egyptians, Jordanians, etc) who dance for joy at our deaths. The
same lovely Palestinians who will never accept the existence of Israel
- only democratic state in the Middle East. It has nothing to do with
oppression (20% of Arabs live as peaceful Israeli citizens, and have a
higher standard of living than any other Middle Eastern country), it
has nothing to do with land (Israel was first promised to the Hebrews
over 3,000 years ago), and has everything to do with economic jealousy
- aka anti-Semitism.
The only Politically Incorrect solution to the Middle East problem, IS
to deport every last Palestinian from the face of Israeli soil. Or we
can allow these lovely Palestinians to join the 20% of Arabs who live
among Israel! Wait, we can't possibly allow that, since we all know
that Pallies would then have easier access to maim & murder Jews in
suicide attacks. So the only other option is to let them move to any
one of the 6 neighborhood Arab bully countries. No one is preventing
them from leaving their precious strip of land. They refuse to leave
because A) they refuse to accept the existence of Israel, thus wanting
it all, including the death of every last Jew. B) they realize how much
worse it would be, had they been living in any other Arab state.
Do you think Egypt would use the same restraint as Israel? If Israel
ever stooped to the same level as Pallies, not one Arab would be left
standing. As the saying goes: "If the Arabs put down their weapons
today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their
weapons today, there would be no more Israel." Israel is only second
to the US, in terms of military might. Now place the shoe on the other
foot. Imagine if Palestine had the same weaponry!? They wouldn't
hesitate to nuke Israel.
Unfortunately, these lovely Palestinians (aka Arabs -
indistinguishable from Jordanians, Egyptians, etc) have done everything
in their power to prevent a Palestinian state from happening. The late
Terrorfat had a chance to have 95% of the West Bank and part of
Jerusalem as his capital, but he chose otherwise. He refused the
Clinton/Barak deal, and opted to engage in more Jew-hating terrorism.
This is the same louse who was later found to have looted billions from
his so-called poor, poor oppressed people.
In the end, why are we even caring about a tribally backward people &
a strip of land that has always been used as a pretense by Palestinians
to massacre more Jews!? Israel has never been Palestinian land, nor
will it ever be! As for the children!? The same lovely children who
chant "death to Israel" in the streets, as they stone civilians and
soldiers!!? Sigh.. -D, NYC "There will be peace in the Middle East when
the Arabs love their children more than they hate us." - GOLDA MEIR
(first female Prime Minister of Israel, 1969-74)
http://tinyurl.com/3juvb (New York Jewish History)
http://tinyurl.com/4c6wf (Unabashedly Jewish - alternative to SCJ &
SCJM)
> > On the other hand, the WWII Japanese-Americans have mostly moved on,
> AFAIK.
> > Not that they've forgotten, but life has gone on. And they didn't get as
> much
> > help as the settlers will be.
> >
> > -xx- Damien X-)
darr...@aol.com
> "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Do you think you throw children out houses with gardens and near the sea,
> >where their families were happy, and dump them in tents and portacabins
> >where their whole families will be miserable (and probably unemployed) and
> >they won't grow up resenting what the state did to them?
>
> After all, the Palestinians were prevented from returning to the homes with
> gardens and near the sae, where their families were happy, which they'd
> fled during the war, were kept in miserable conditions first by Arab
> governments and then by Israel, and have grown up resenting Israel.
> Not that they've forgotten, but life has gone on. And they didn't get as much
> help as the settlers will be.>
> -xx- Damien X-)
Damien, was it not you who recently said the following: "..But I was
raised with close awareness of the Holocaust, criticism of Israel
("after 2000 years of oppression you'd think we'd know better than to
pass it on). Damien, you obviously haven't learned from your parents
mistakes. Why then are you perpetuating the same racist anti-Israel
(aka anti-Semitic) DRECK!? Hint: it helps if you actually knew what the
hell you were talking about! Here are a few facts to chew on:
1. Nationhood and Jerusalem - Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E.,
two thousand years before the rise of Islam.
2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a
Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the
Modern State of Israel.
3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E. the Jews have had dominion
over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the
land for the past 3,300 years.
4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more
than 22 years.
5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital.
Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even
when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it
their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.
6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy
Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.
7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to
Jerusalem.
8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward
Jerusalem.
9. Arab and Jewish Refugees In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged
to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews.
Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.
10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab
brutality, persecution and pogroms.
11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to
be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is
estimated to be the same.
12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into
the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out
of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only
refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated
into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed
into Israel, a country no
larger than the state of New Jersey.
darr...@aol.com
> shu...@mac.com wrote:
>
> >something, and 4) their complaints remind me of the old joke about the
> >guy who kills his parents and throws himself on the mercy of the court
> >because he is an orphan. >
> My mother used that as the defining example of 'chutzpah' when I was a kid.>
> Which seems like a cue to introduce myself a bit. Half-Jewish, 4th
generation
> non-practicing Jew on my mother's side.
Damien, what's cooking!? Was your mother born from a Jewish womb!? If
so, you are "Halachically Hebraic" (full-blooded Jew) in the eyes of
the Talmud. Judaism is solely determined by the matriarchal lineage.
Technically, there is no such thing as "half-Jew," even though that
term is often used to describe patriarchal lineage. In the eyes of the
Talmud, you're either Jewish or not...
> "Chosen people -- chosen for what?!" -- me as a kid, contemplating the unhappy
> history of 'my people'.
The above line is a one-sided perspective that is usually parroted by
anti-Semites. Elie Wiesel said it best: "We are the most cursed of all
generations, and we are the most blessed of all generations. We are the
generation of Job, but we are also the generation of Jerusalem." We
have been harried and hunted, as well as emulated and admired. We've
always had Jewish heroes throughout every point in our history. This is
what makes us unique! Jews are the oldest of any people on earth still
around with their national identity and cultural heritage intact. Jews
have exerted an influence on world civilization more profound and
lasting than any other ancient culture. Jews are universally
acknowledged as the source of many of the major religions of the world.
>From holy wood to Hollywood, from Einstein to Freud, from Christianity
to the Sabbath, from the polio vaccine to the syphilis cure, from Jesus
of Nazareth to Moses, the scope & importance of Jewish contributions to
America and the world are staggering! We have more than lived up to our
Chosen One status, which has always fuelled anti-Semitism. In spite of
the overwhelming odds against us, we have persevered like no other
peoples.
Jews started the whole shebang - life! No other religion (one as
popular & as influential as Judaism) has been able to
disproportionately impact every facet of life. All in spite of enduring
thousands of years of persecution, in spite of comprising a measly 1/4
of 1% of the world's population, and in spite of not having a homeland
for eighteen-hundred years. Jews are so few in number, yet so great in
ability! Choose any field of human endeavor, and you will find that
Jews have excelled in it. Jews stand as a living testament to
perseverance!! That IS what we were Chosen for! -D, NYC "I grew up
believing that Jews were the chosen people, that they gave us the high
ethical and moral principles of our civilization" - DWIGHT D.
EISENHOWER (34th US President, 1953 - 1961).."If statistics are right,
the Jews constitute but one percent of the human race. It suggests a
nebulous dim puff of stardust lost in the blaze of the Milky way.
Properly, the Jew ought hardly to be heard of, but he is heard of, has
always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other
people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of
proportion to the smallness of his bulk. His contributions to the
world's list of great names in literature, science, art, music,
finance, medicine, and abstruse learning are also away out of
proportion to the weakness of his numbers. He has made a marvelous
fight in this world, in all the ages; and had done it with his hands
tied behind him. He could be vain of himself, and be excused for it.
The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Roman followed, and made a vast
noise, and they are gone. Other peoples have sprung up and held their
torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now,
or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what
he always was, exhibiting decadence, no infirmities of age, no
weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his
alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other
forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?" -
MARK TWAIN.."Certainly, the world without the Jews would have been a
radically different place. Humanity might have eventually stumbled upon
all the Jewish insights. But we cannot be sure. All the great
conceptual discoveries of the human intellect seem obvious and
inescapable once they had been revealed, but it requires a special
genius to formulate them for the first time. The Jews had this gift. To
them we owe the idea of equality before the law, both divine and human;
of the sanctity of life and the dignity of human person; of the
individual conscience and so a personal redemption; of collective
conscience and so of social responsibility; of peace as an abstract
ideal and love as the foundation of justice, and many other items which
constitute the basic moral furniture of the human mind. Without Jews it
might have been a much emptier place." - PAUL JOHNSON, contemporary US
Historian, "A History of Jews & A History of Christianity"..."Western
civilization is undeniably a 'Jewified' civilization, however offensive
the word may be to our ears because of the ugly use made of it by
anti-Semites - anti-Semites believed that Jews were everywhere, and in
a sense they were almost everywhere that counted in modern society." -
ALBERT LINDEMANN in Esau's Tears: Modern anti-Semitism and the Rise of
the Jews, Cambridge University Press, 1997, p. 20..."The Jew is the
emblem of eternity. He who neither slaughter nor torture of thousands
of years could destroy, he who neither fire, nor sword, nor Inquisition
was able to wipe off the face of the earth. He who was the first to
produce the Oracles of God. He who has been for so long the Guardian of
Prophecy and has transmitted it to the rest of the world. Such a nation
cannot be destroyed. The Jew is as everlasting as Eternity itself" -
LEO TOLSTOY.."The modern United States, in spite of itself, IS the
United States in part because of its Jewish blood." - JOE MCCAIN ("The
Jews Will Not Go Quietly Again," author, lecturer, historian, brother
of Sen. John McCain)
http://tinyurl.com/3juvb (New York Jewish History)
http://tinyurl.com/4c6wf (Unabashedly Jewish - alternative to SCJ &
SCJM)
http://tinyurl.com/3npsf (NYC - safest, largest city in the US)
http://tinyurl.com/3qkd3 (NYC Statistics & Fun Facts)
http://tinyurl.com/3c6kk (Top 10 Places America Goes To Have Fun -
Times Square)
http://tinyurl.com/3nyhl (America's 5 Most/Least Expensive Cities To
Live In: #1 - NYC - most expensive)
http://tinyurl.com/46f53 (NY, NY - Capital Of The World)
http://www.forbes.com (NY: 3 of Top 5 Most Expensive Homes in the US)
http://tinyurl.com/5zmb6 (Temple Emanu-El, NYC - World's Largest
Synagogue
http://tinyurl.com/5gs58 (Brach's - World's Largest Kosher Supermarket,
NY)
http://tinyurl.com/5phxf (US Study - Jews Richer Because Of Religion)
http://tinyurl.com/5gd3p (A Study In Differences - Are Jews Smarter?)
http://tinyurl.com/38m6o (Jewish population of the US by State)
http://tinyurl.com/666cx (Jewish population of the World)
http://tinyurl.com/68ttu (Jewish Nobel Prizes)
http://tinyurl.com/6qb5e (Is It True - Do Jews Win More Nobel Prizes
than anyone else?)
http://tinyurl.com/4cz9j (Tel-Aviv - Top 10 High-Tech Cities In The
World)
http://tinyurl.com/6exvb (Phenomenon Of The Jews)
http://tinyurl.com/ihif (Jews, IQs & Nobel Laureates)
http://tinyurl.com/5tn7u (Do Jews Run Hollywood!? You Bet They do, and
what of it?)
Susan Cohen
Yasher koach, D!
Susan
<darr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1122607642.1...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Susan Cohen
Way to go, D!!!
Susan
<darr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1122611824.6...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
yaakov_...@hotmail.com
> What if those lovely gardens near the sea are surrounded by millions of
> people who hate them, don't want them there, and are perfectly willing
> to run through the fences to shoot them, or to shoot at cars carrying
> them, or fire rockets into their beautiful gardens by the sea? And what
> about the children of a couple of million others who have to risk their
All the arguments you have brougth can be used to deligitimize the
very existence of the state of Israel...a small collection of Jews
surrounded by a sea of Arabs/Muslims that is too hard to defend.
Jews survived because we have liquid assets. We
> are capable of getting up off our asses and moving when we had to and we
> survived and they will survive and your sympathy is pathetic.
This is the classic stereotype of the wandering rootless Jew who has
no principles, grubs for money and would sell his grandmother if
the price is right..i.e. the philosophy of the ruling clique in
Israel. No foreigner would support a state of Jews with no principles.
I see you want us to go back to the sick galut mentality of the Jews
in the last 2000 years. These made the Jewish people sick, you view
it as some sort of "advantage".
Fiona
"Joel Shurkin" <shu...@mac.com> wrote
> Listen lady. Show me the concentration camps. The gas showers. The
> ditches with the bodies in them. The children with their brains bashed
> out on walls. The people standing at barbed wire fences starving to
> death. The medical experiments. The destruction of a civilization.
The Nazis were Nazis long before they started committing atrocities. The
British Nazi party were still Nazis even though they never committed
atrocities. The Nazi philosophy and mindset leads to atrocities, but to
ensure *Never Again* we must recognise and neutralise those with the Nazi
mindset BEFORE they reach the point of atrocity, and like it or not Jews are
just as capable of buying into that mindset as goyim.
Fiona
Lisa
Susan Cohen wrote:
> Wow, 2 posts in a row with which I can wholeheartedly agree!
> Yasher koach, D!
PDNFTT
Lisa
Susan Cohen
Susan
<darr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1122604353....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Jackie
<darr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1122611824.6...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
would be an end to the problems Israel faces. But I fear there is still a
segment of anti-Semites who support the Arabs, newly named Palestinians, in
their narrative and who wish to see the work Hitler started completed.
Jackie
.
Susan Cohen
Um....what?
Susan
>
> Lisa
>
Lisa
Please Do Not Feed The Troll.
Lisa
Joel Shurkin
snip
>
> I'm going to ask this one more time, and then just give up. Screw your
> opinion of the settlements. Screw your opinion of the settlers. Screw
> your fear and your lack of perspective. Can you really let your
> political desires cause you to approve of the patently anti-democratic
> means being used to achieve them?
>
> Lisa
>
I have trouble defending the Israeli form of government as democratic
for an entirely different reason than you do—it permits the tyranny of a
minority. In this one case, the majority sat on the minority, and hence
all the screaming about democracy.
The members of the Knesset were elected by the people through the
parties. They have overwhelmingly supported the withdrawal from Gaza.
They have overwhelmingly rejected every single effort to bring down the
government over the issue. Had there been a overwhelming pressure to
oppose the move they would not have voted the way they did, if for no
other reason than they feared being removed from office or tarred and
feathered. The opposition can pull down the government any moment they
get enough votes. They can throw the bums out of office at the next
election. The fact remains, the overwhelming number of Israelis support
the withdrawal and the Knesset is reflecting that. That is democracy
whether you agree with the decision or not. What we have here is a
minority that has long enjoyed excess power suddenly getting its
comeuppance. And about damned time.
Israelis could change the system and get more representative government,
but that would mean that the minority, who are screaming the loudest
about democracy would lose their ability to tyrannize the majority. Bet
they really don't mean that to happen.
Joel Shurkin
of the settlers than anything else they can possibly dream of. Any
sympathy I (and most anyone one I know) would have for them fled. Now we
are just nauseous and hope you and they will shut up.
J
\
yaakov_...@hotmail.com wrote:
> (1) A couple of days ago, the Jerusalem Post had a article saying that
> the army is considering dynamiting (G-d forbid) the synagogues
> of Gush Katif because it is easier than bulldozing them.
> This is being done for the good of Israel and its people.
>
> ---> Do you know that on the night of 9-10 November 1938
> (the night of the "Kristallnacht" pogrom)
> in Germany, Austria, and the Sudetenlan, THE VERY
> SAME DISCUSSION WAS HELD? The discussion was
> held because this was felt to be for the good of Germany
> and its people.
>
> (2) Police Minister Gidon Ezra in an interview in Makor Rishon
> says he expects there to be an INCREASE in terrorism
> after the (G-d forbid) withdrawal from Gaza, but, even though
> Jews have to die (G-d forbid), it is for a greater good.
> Sharon said after the massacre at the Dolphinarium
> (20+ Jews murdered) that he had promised Bush that
> he wouldn't respond. Hundreds more were murdered
> before Sharon was forced by public pressure to respond
> after the Pesach Nite Massacre in Netanya.
> In other words, Jews have to die
> for a greater good as far as the gov't is concerned.
> Sharon (and Ha'aretz for that matter) have stated
> only the gov't can look at the big picture so decisions
> like this have to be made and we common people
> have no right to criticize them for decisions like this..
> we just have to assume that they are doing this for
> the greater good.
>
> ---> 1930's, 1940's in Europe, discussions are held pointing
> out that for the greater good, Jews have to die. This has
> to be done for the greater good of mankind. Those who
> did it said they were working for the good of mankind.
> They only wanted good. They said we should look
> at the big picture.
>
> I am not "making comparisons". I am pointing out
> historical facts. Draw your own conclusions about
> the morality of those making these decisions.
Joel Shurkin
>
>
> "Joel Shurkin" <shu...@mac.com> wrote
>>>>want?
>>>
>
> sea,
>
>>>where their families were happy, and dump them in tents and portacabins
>>>where their whole families will be miserable (and probably unemployed)
>
> and
>
>>>they won't grow up resenting what the state did to them?
>>
>>people who hate them, don't want them there, and are perfectly willing
>>to run through the fences to shoot them, or to shoot at cars carrying
>>them, or fire rockets into their beautiful gardens by the sea? And what
>>about the children of a couple of million others who have to risk their
>>are capable of getting up off our asses and moving when we had to
>
>
> elsewhere. But the residents of Gaza are not being forced to flee from
> goying, they are being evicted by Jews. Big difference.
And being given hundreds of thousands of dollars and homes in Israel. I
think they are even getting free moving trucks. What you get at most is
an inconvenience.
>
>
>>and we
>>survived and they will survive and your sympathy is pathetic.
>
>
> You should try a little empathy, or can't you?
Not on this issue. No. I care too much.
>
>
> Fiona
>
>
>
j
Fiona
"Joel Shurkin" <shu...@mac.com> wrote
> The members of the Knesset were elected by the people through the
> parties. They have overwhelmingly supported the withdrawal from Gaza.
But Joel, it doesn't matter how many time you say this, the fact remains
they were voted in with an overwhelming majority to NOT do what they are
doing. The fact that they are doing it, just shows how little respect
Israeli politicians have for the voting public.
Fiona
Fiona
"Joel Shurkin" <shu...@mac.com> wrote
> The analogy with the Nazis, as seen below, does more harm to the cause
> of the settlers than anything else they can possibly dream of. Any
> sympathy I (and most anyone one I know) would have for them fled.
But you have said already you can neither sympathise nor empathise with "the
settlers" and it's clear that you have always conisered "the settlers" as
some sort of untermenshen, so this analogy makes no practical difference.
> Now we are just nauseous and hope you and they will shut up.
Jews shut up? No chance.
Fiona
Fiona
They may be being offered compensation but it is much less that their
properties are worth on the open market, and it certainly does compensate
them for the "loss". And as for homes in Israel, firstly there are no homes
for everyone, and what "homes" that are available are of a much lower
standard then what they currently have - or don't you actually read the
media?
> >>and we survived and they will survive and your sympathy is pathetic.
> >
> > You should try a little empathy, or can't you?
>
> Not on this issue. No. I care too much.
I don't see any evidence whatsoever of you caring one jot about anything but
the supremacy of the Left.
Fiona
yaakov_...@hotmail.com
Joel Shurkin wrote:
> The analogy with the Nazis, as seen below, does more harm to the cause
> of the settlers than anything else they can possibly dream of. Any
> sympathy I (and most anyone one I know) would have for them fled. Now we
> are just nauseous and hope you and they will shut up.
>
>
at the end I wasn't making comparisons. I am asking:
(1) Why is it bad for Nazis to dynamite synagogues but it
is okay for Jews to do it?
(2) Why is it wrong for Nazis to kill Jews, but it is okay for
Jews to allow their Arab enemies to to it?
Obviously, it is incorrect to compare the gov't with the Nazis
but a fair comparison is with the Yevsektsia (Jewish Branch of
the Communist Party of the USSR). They also dynamited synagogues
and sent religious Jews to the GULAG, all in the name of a
higher good.
BTW- I notice that the whole nature of this ongoing argument
has changed. At first it was "the majority wants it so it
is moral". Now it is clear there is no majority so then
the argument is "the gov't has determined that it will improve
security and the countries international position." Well, Condi
has denied all the "achievements" Sharon claimed, and the Arabs
have sworn to increase the terror afterwards, the argument
has shifted to "who runs the country, the datiim or the hilonim"?
even though the large majority of the many cars withe orange
ribbons are driven by non-religious.
Sharon's base of support has eroded so much that I am still
confident that he will not be able to do it in spite of all
the threats he is uttering.
yaakov_...@hotmail.com
> > You should try a little empathy, or can't you?
>
> Not on this issue. No. I care too much.
> >
>
(1) If the gov't decided to throw YOU out of YOUR
house, and treated YOU the same way as the people
of Gush Katif and their supporters, would you
feel the same way?
(2) Would you feel the same way if it were Arabs
whose communities were being destroyed by a "majority"
vote of the Knesset with leftist Knesset members being
openly bribed to support it?
J J Levin
news:1122652214.2...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> Joel Shurkin wrote:
>> The analogy with the Nazis, as seen below, does more harm to the cause
>> of the settlers than anything else they can possibly dream of. Any
>> sympathy I (and most anyone one I know) would have for them fled. Now we
>> are just nauseous and hope you and they will shut up.
>>
>>
> Apparently you didn't catch the point I was trying to make. I said
> at the end I wasn't making comparisons.
Yes, you are making comparisons, and they are despicable.
> I am asking:
> (1) Why is it bad for Nazis to dynamite synagogues but it
> is okay for Jews to do it?
Because the Nazis did it to eradicate Judaism and exterminate Jews. Israel
is doing it so the synagogues will not be left behind and used by the
Palestinians for other purposes.
> (2) Why is it wrong for Nazis to kill Jews, but it is okay for
> Jews to allow their Arab enemies to to it?
Because the Nazis did it to eradicate Judaism and extermninate Jews. Israel
is doing it because its democratically elected government believes it will
enhance security. If you don't like it, there are elections scheduled for
November 2006 and you can run for office.
Your hatred knows no bounds, as proved by these vile comparisons.
Jay
Harry Weiss
> Fiona wrote:
> >
> >
> > "J J Levin" <jjl...@optonline.net> wrote
> >
> >
> >
> >>>Nonetheless, I, for one, find these constant efforts to show
> >>>parallels between the Israeli government and the nazis to be
> >>>incredibly disgusting and offensive. Bad enough that our enemies do
> >>>it... Feh!
> >>
> >>Very well said!!!
> >
> >
> > You are right to be disgusted, but you are directing it in the wrong
> > direction. No one should be allowed to emulate the practices of the Nazis an
> > be free from comparison. Just how similar to the Nazis and/or Judenrat does
> > someone's actions have to be before you will accept comparison?
> Listen lady. Show me the concentration camps. The gas showers. The
> ditches with the bodies in them. The children with their brains bashed
> out on walls. The people standing at barbed wire fences starving to
> death. The medical experiments. The destruction of a civilization.
> Your comparison and the use of Nazi imagery by the opposition is
> offensive, disgusting and seriously nauseating. Go wash your mouth.
> J
I am agreement with Yaacov, Lisa and Fion regarding disengagement than
with Joel or J, but I agree fully with Joel tha your comparison is
disgusting. There are something that may be similar, but the difference
so big that is minimizing what happend to the victims of the holocaust.
> >
> > And if Holocaust survivors themselves make the comparison (as many have) who
> > are you to dispute the comparison?
> >
> > As no other nation's army and police force has forcibly sealed off a Jewish
> > neighbourhood and forcibly evicted the Jews of the neighbourhood against
> > their will since the Nazis, the comparison is valid. In fact we have a moral
> > duty to make the comparison.
> >
> > If comparison to the Holocaust is taboo then the lessons cannot be learned,
> > and *Never Again* is neutered and becomes an empty catch phrase. How exactly
> > do you intend to identify someone who IS acting like the Nazis or their
> > Judenrat - and is therefore likely to bring the same consequences - if you
> > cannot compare them?
> >
> > Your taboo will get us all killed.
> >
> >
> > Fiona
> >
> >
> >
> --
> Joel N. Shurkin
> Baltimore, Maryland
> On the web at: www.shurkin.us
> and
> http://cabbageskings.blogspot.com
> http://yussel.blogspot.com
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
Jonathan J. Baker
>"Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>> More from the Child Catcher Dept <xref. Chitty Chitty Bang Bang> of the
>> State of Israel (and what a state it is in):
>> Katif and northern Samaria. According to the ministry's plans, children
>> over
>> two years old will have to be voluntarily transferred to the custody of a
>> relative, or child welfare services will take the children to
>> specially-prepared shelters. As for children under two years old, the
...
>> duration, in the hope that most parents would rather voluntarily sign
>> their children over to relatives.
>Conversely, do you really think that 4, 6, and 8-year olds should be
>present when their parents are removed from Gaza? Would you subject your
>child to that kind of trauma? If the parents leave the house quietly as a
>family, OK. But some settlers have made it clear that they will resist, and
>there may be screaming, yelling, and perhaps a parent being removed by 4
>soldiers holding on to 4 of his/her limbs...
>We're not talking about 17 year old children here. We are talking about 4
>and 5 year olds being scared out of their wits.
Did you read carefully? They're not talking about sending the kids
to relatives for the duration, they're talking about GIVING CUSTODY
OF THE CHILDREN to relatives. That is, GIVING UP THEIR OWN RIGHT
OF CUSTODY OVER THEIR OWN CHILDREN.
Note the use of the phrase "sign over" - also indicating a legal
transfer of custody, rather than just sending them temporarily
to a relative's home.
--
Jonathan Baker | It's almost time ta muze
jjb...@panix.com | about the Destruction.
http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker/
Lisa
Harry Weiss wrote:
>
> I am agreement with Yaacov, Lisa and Fion regarding disengagement than
> with Joel or J, but I agree fully with Joel tha your comparison is
> disgusting. There are something that may be similar, but the difference
> so big that is minimizing what happend to the victims of the holocaust.
As much as I respect your views, Harry, I'm going to have to take the
opinions of actual Holocaust survivors as being more authoritative.
You can disagree with the comparison, and you can be offended by the
comparison, but to say that it minimizes what happened to the victims
of the Holocaust when there are Holocaust survivors say otherwise
doesn't make sense.
Lisa
Joel Shurkin
Where did you get the notion that elected politicians have to keep their
campaign promises, or cannot change their minds? Good ones do it all the
time.
From Edmund Burke:
"Parliament is not a congress of ambassadors from different and hostile
interests; which interests each must maintain, as an agent and advocate,
against other agents and advocates; but parliament is a deliberative
assembly of one nation, with one interest, that of the whole; where, not
local purposes, not local prejudices ought to guide, but the general
good, resulting from the general reason of the whole. . ...
Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment;
and he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to your
opinion. ...
The state includes the dead, the living, and the coming generations."
Reread and memorize the next-to-the-last sentence. There will be a quiz
in the morning, and yes Yaakov. I know he's not Jewish.
j
Joel Shurkin
>>>You should try a little empathy, or can't you?
>>
>>Not on this issue. No. I care too much.
>>
> Two question for you to think about seriously:
> (1) If the gov't decided to throw YOU out of YOUR
> house, and treated YOU the same way as the people
> of Gush Katif and their supporters, would you
> feel the same way?
Yes. Without question if the circumstances were the same.
> (2) Would you feel the same way if it were Arabs
> whose communities were being destroyed by a "majority"
> vote of the Knesset with leftist Knesset members being
> openly bribed to support it?
I guess it's time to roll out a definition of the Chewbacca Defense.
From Wikipedia:
The Chewbacca Defense is a satirical term for any legal strategy that
seeks to overwhelm its audience with nonsensical arguments and thus
confuse them into failing to take account of the opposing arguments and,
ultimately, to reject them. It is thus a kind of logical fallacy,
specifically a red herring fallacy and non sequitur similar to
argumentum ad nauseam.
The term originated in the animated television series South Park. In its
typically hyperbolic style, the show satirized the late attorney Johnnie
Cochran's closing argument defending O.J. Simpson in his murder trial.
Joel Shurkin
> Joel Shurkin wrote:
>
>>The analogy with the Nazis, as seen below, does more harm to the cause
>>of the settlers than anything else they can possibly dream of. Any
>>sympathy I (and most anyone one I know) would have for them fled. Now we
>>are just nauseous and hope you and they will shut up.
>>
>>
>
> Apparently you didn't catch the point I was trying to make. I said
> at the end I wasn't making comparisons. I am asking:
> (1) Why is it bad for Nazis to dynamite synagogues but it
> is okay for Jews to do it?
No I did catch the point. It made me throw up.
J
> (2) Why is it wrong for Nazis to kill Jews, but it is okay for
> Jews to allow their Arab enemies to to it?
> Obviously, it is incorrect to compare the gov't with the Nazis
> but a fair comparison is with the Yevsektsia (Jewish Branch of
> the Communist Party of the USSR). They also dynamited synagogues
> and sent religious Jews to the GULAG, all in the name of a
> higher good.
>
> BTW- I notice that the whole nature of this ongoing argument
> has changed. At first it was "the majority wants it so it
> is moral". Now it is clear there is no majority so then
> the argument is "the gov't has determined that it will improve
> security and the countries international position." Well, Condi
> has denied all the "achievements" Sharon claimed, and the Arabs
> have sworn to increase the terror afterwards, the argument
> has shifted to "who runs the country, the datiim or the hilonim"?
> even though the large majority of the many cars withe orange
> ribbons are driven by non-religious.
> Sharon's base of support has eroded so much that I am still
> confident that he will not be able to do it in spite of all
> the threats he is uttering.
>
Joel Shurkin
See the definition of the Chewbacca Defense I posted above.
J
Joel Shurkin
And I also offer this from Haaretz. It seems that the settlers are upset
because they are getting very little support from Diaspora Jews. They
are not getting it from individuals, they are not getting it from
organizations outside of the right wing of Orthodoxy. Why they expected
any is beyond me, but many of them live in a fantasy world, which
appears to have spread to this list. Listen carefully: most Jews do not
support the Gaza settlers, most Jews are repulsed by the behavior of
some of them. They are, indeed, virtually alone.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/606119.html
yaco...@aol.com
Joel Shurkin wrote:
> Where did you get the notion that elected politicians have to keep their
> campaign promises, or cannot change their minds? Good ones do it all the
> time.
Ah more advocacy couched as intelleignt argument.
You lump "changing one's mind" with "not keeping promises" and then use
that linkage to inject the word "good." Very shrewd bullsh*t, bit
nothing to do with reality.
The statement that a Jewish leader should serve the people and not his
self interest is found throughout th eBible and Rabbinic literature.
The idea that a gentile or even a convert can hold NO political office
is found in the Talmud.
The idea that some people say a lot but that their words contain little
content is Mishnaic, originally written on parchment.
Jacko
Harry Weiss
> Lisa
The Nazis Yemach Shemam had one purpose and one purpose only regarding the
Jews, and that was elimination of the Jews - the final solution.
The Government of Israel, though doing in things in a heavy handed manner,
that violates all type of civil liberties that we enjoy here in the US, is
still NOT trying to kill Jews. How many Jews have been executed by
Israel? there is absolutely no comparison and what you are writing gives
ammuntion to all of the Holocaust revisionists who deny what went on
during the Nazi period.
Yisroel Markov
said:
Or, as David Weigel put it at http://www.reason.com/hod/dw071405.shtml
-
ADL President Abe Foxman raged: "If someone can be a 'soup Nazi' or a
'traffic Nazi,' how bad could the real Nazis have been?"
Pretty bad. To recap, the Nazi party took over Germany via a violent
rigged election, then banned all rival political parties. They
systematically shut down all voices of opposition, killing
journalists, creating Nazi churches, and exiling academics. While
gearing up for a war of conquest, they introduced eugenics into their
school system, took all rights away from Jews, and brutalized other
non-Germans. For dessert they launched a six-year war that killed
millions of people, enslaved millions more, and systematically
exterminated entire ethnic groups before retreating to a bunker and
demanding their citizens commit mass suicide.
You can't really downplay this stuff or cheapen it through overuse.
Think about this another way: You can say your sandwich tastes like a
urinal cake. This emphasizes that the sandwich is truly awful, and
gives your listener an idea or image of exactly how awful. But you
don't lose sight of how bad the urinal cake can be. It's a poisonous
sanitary product, and nothing will ever change that.
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for unbiased analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
J J Levin
news:1122665853....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Joel Shurkin wrote:
>> Where did you get the notion that elected politicians have to keep their
>> campaign promises, or cannot change their minds? Good ones do it all the
>> time.
>
>
> Ah more advocacy couched as intelleignt argument.
>
> You lump "changing one's mind" with "not keeping promises" and then use
> that linkage to inject the word "good." Very shrewd bullsh*t, bit
> nothing to do with reality.
>
> The statement that a Jewish leader should serve the people and not his
> self interest is found throughout th eBible and Rabbinic literature.
>
... and that's what Sharon is doing, in his opinion.
> The idea that a gentile or even a convert can hold NO political office
> is found in the Talmud.
Israel is not a halachic state.
Jay
Lisa
I am like hell. You just don't like the comparison.
And their purpose, incidentally, is to make Israel over into a nation
like all the rest. Maybe you don't remember when there were election
ads that showed a map of Israel with black spots everywhere there was a
significant religious population, and large banner reading: STOP THEM
BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE.
If you don't like the comparison of soldiers getting on buses and
pulling off those who were visibly Orthodox to selektzia, that's too
bad, but you have no call criticizing those who find the similarities
frightning and upsetting.
I have blood family in Maaleh Adumim, Harry. That could have been some
of them getting selectively put off of buses in the middle of nowhere.
Do *not* tell me what kind of comparisons are legitimate and not. If
you don't like the comparisons, fine. You're entitled to your opinion.
There are a lot of things that I don't like, too. Grit your teeth and
get over it. And hope that you never have to find yourself in a
position where you suddenly understand -- too late -- why those
comparisons were being made.
Lisa
Lisa
And let's not forget that eugenics was a predominantly accepted
scientific field of study prior to the Holocaust. It was considered
non-offensive, and people who objected to it were considered
anti-science and anti-progress.
This "inoffensive" field was reevaluated after it was seen what it led
to. That's exactly why it's appropriate to draw the correct
comparisons for things that are far short of death camps.
Lisa
Lisa
Non sequitur. There's nothing here that even remotely fits that
definition. The fact is, they are requiring people to surrender legal
custody of their children to others, or to have them taken away by the
state.
You have to argue with anything that criticizes any part of the
expulsion, don't you. No matter how odious it is.
Lisa
Harry Weiss
> Lisa
I too am protesting the discrimiation against religous Jews. If you
notice I am the one who posted the OU protest against the Maaleh Adumim.
But, you have real big problem if you cannot tell the difference between
being taken of a bus and being sent to a gas chamber.
Lisa
Wow. You really didn't read anything I wrote.
Lisa
Joel Shurkin
Their properties are worth nothing on the open market because most
neighborhoods do not feature sporadic rocket attacks, do not require
machine gun positions and an army to protect them, and permit commuting
to work in cars, not armored buses. And now suddenly we are arguing
about the value of their compensation. Sure have moved the argument.
J
>
>
>>>>and we survived and they will survive and your sympathy is pathetic.
>>>
>>>You should try a little empathy, or can't you?
>>
>>Not on this issue. No. I care too much.
>
>
> I don't see any evidence whatsoever of you caring one jot about anything but
> the supremacy of the Left.
>
>
>
> Fiona
>
>
>
darr...@aol.com
> Fabulous post, D!> Susan
Susan, thanks for the shout-out!ehe I always do my best work in the
nude! LOL! BTW, I simply hope you remember this day a month from now,
in case you start cussing at me again! LOL! P.S. Ignore the misandrist
who has no concept of the true definition of a troll! eheee Hint: one
who interrupts conversation by saying PDFTT! LOL! That's a troll!
Sigh.. -D, NYC "New York City owes its intellectual vitality to the
presence of the Jews...the only people in New York who love books with
a passionate yearning which transcends their attention to all
terrestrial manifestations" - FORD MADOX FORD (British Novelist,
"Horizon" -1926).."In New York, even if you're Catholic, you're Jewish.
If you live in Butte, Montana, you're going to be Goyish, even if
you're Jewish! eh - LENNY BRUCE (b.Leonard Alfred Schneider, umpteenth
sweet, Jewish NYer)
http://tinyurl.com/3juvb (New York Jewish History)
http://tinyurl.com/4c6wf (Unabashedly Jewish - alternative to SCJ &
SCJM)
> <darr...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1122604353....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > cindys wrote:
> >
> >> "Damien Sullivan" <pho...@ofb.net> wrote in message
> >> news:dc93m2$ooh$1...@naig.caltech.edu...
> >> > "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >Do you think you throw children out houses with gardens and near the
> >> > >sea,
> >> > >where their families were happy, and dump them in tents and
> >> > >portacabins
> >> > >where their whole families will be miserable (and probably unemployed)
> >> and
> >> > >they won't grow up resenting what the state did to them?
> >> >
> >> > After all, the Palestinians were prevented from returning to the homes
> >> with
> >> > gardens and near the sae, where their families were happy, which they'd
> >> > fled during the war, were kept in miserable conditions first by Arab
> >> > governments and then by Israel, and have grown up resenting Israel.
> >> ------------
> >
> >> Exactly, what "miserable" conditions has *Israel* imposed upon the
> >> so-called
> >> "Palestinians?" Are these the "Palestinians" like Yasser Arafat who were
> >> in
> >> fact Egyptians before they were *Palestinians?* Where in Israel exactly
> >> was
> >> his "home by the garden" located?
> >> Best regards,
> >> ---Cindy S.
> >
> > Sweet Larry Miller (comedian/pundit, not to be confused with GOY Dennis
> > Miller) said it best: "Before the Israelis won the land in war, Gaza
> > was owned by Egypt, and there were no "Palestinians" then, and the West
> > Bank was owned by Jordan, and there were no "Palestinians" then. As
> > soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big as
> > basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the "Palestinians," weeping
> > for their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation." eh
> > These are the same lovely Palestinians (aka Arabs - indistinguishable
> > from Egyptians, Jordanians, etc) who dance for joy at our deaths. The
> > same lovely Palestinians who will never accept the existence of Israel
> > - only democratic state in the Middle East. It has nothing to do with
> > oppression (20% of Arabs live as peaceful Israeli citizens, and have a
> > higher standard of living than any other Middle Eastern country), it
> > has nothing to do with land (Israel was first promised to the Hebrews
> > over 3,000 years ago), and has everything to do with economic jealousy
> > - aka anti-Semitism.
> > The only Politically Incorrect solution to the Middle East problem, IS
> > to deport every last Palestinian from the face of Israeli soil. Or we
> > can allow these lovely Palestinians to join the 20% of Arabs who live
> > among Israel! Wait, we can't possibly allow that, since we all know
> > that Pallies would then have easier access to maim & murder Jews in
> > suicide attacks. So the only other option is to let them move to any
> > one of the 6 neighborhood Arab bully countries. No one is preventing
> > them from leaving their precious strip of land. They refuse to leave
> > because A) they refuse to accept the existence of Israel, thus wanting
> > it all, including the death of every last Jew. B) they realize how much
> > worse it would be, had they been living in any other Arab state.
> > Do you think Egypt would use the same restraint as Israel? If Israel
> > ever stooped to the same level as Pallies, not one Arab would be left
> > standing. As the saying goes: "If the Arabs put down their weapons
> > today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their
> > weapons today, there would be no more Israel." Israel is only second
> > to the US, in terms of military might. Now place the shoe on the other
> > foot. Imagine if Palestine had the same weaponry!? They wouldn't
> > hesitate to nuke Israel.
> > Unfortunately, these lovely Palestinians (aka Arabs -
> > indistinguishable from Jordanians, Egyptians, etc) have done everything
> > in their power to prevent a Palestinian state from happening. The late
> > Terrorfat had a chance to have 95% of the West Bank and part of
> > Jerusalem as his capital, but he chose otherwise. He refused the
> > Clinton/Barak deal, and opted to engage in more Jew-hating terrorism.
> > This is the same louse who was later found to have looted billions from
> > his so-called poor, poor oppressed people.
> > In the end, why are we even caring about a tribally backward people &
> > a strip of land that has always been used as a pretense by Palestinians
> > to massacre more Jews!? Israel has never been Palestinian land, nor
> > will it ever be! As for the children!? The same lovely children who
> > chant "death to Israel" in the streets, as they stone civilians and
> > soldiers!!? Sigh.. -D, NYC "There will be peace in the Middle East when
> > the Arabs love their children more than they hate us." - GOLDA MEIR
> > (first female Prime Minister of Israel, 1969-74)
Fiona
> > I too am protesting the discrimiation against religous Jews. If you
> > notice I am the one who posted the OU protest against the Maaleh Adumim.
> > But, you have real big problem if you cannot tell the difference between
> > being taken of a bus and being sent to a gas chamber.
>
> Wow. You really didn't read anything I wrote.
What I have noticed with these arguments, Lis, as I wrote in another post is
that to those who cannot stand the comparison only want people to consider
the Nazi worst atrocities, as if the way the Nazis acted before they reached
that stage was somehow not connected. I can't go with that, as far as I'm
concerned the whole of the Nazi philosophy was evil, from beginning to end,
not just the end. Therefore, comparison to the Nazism in its early stages is
relevant, because the Nazis didn't start with the death camps, they built up
to it. If we rely on the death camp stage to trigger reactions, it will too
late.
Fiona
J J Levin
Untrue. The Nazis were thugs from the first. One of the reasons the Germans
voted for Hitler was that he promised to bring back law and order to the
streets. The law and order were disrupted by the Nazis themselves who were
fighting the Communists in the streets, and the Germans were deathly afraid
of the Communists.
Also, please peruse Hitler's MEIN KAMPF. He makes no secret about his hatred
for the Jews and his desire to rid Germany and Europe of them.
It is really vile to compare the Israeli government, no matter how much you
dislike it, to the Nazis, even in their initial stages.
Jay
Lisa
Joel Shurkin wrote:
>
> Their properties are worth nothing on the open market because most
> neighborhoods do not feature sporadic rocket attacks, do not require
> machine gun positions and an army to protect them, and permit commuting
> to work in cars, not armored buses. And now suddenly we are arguing
> about the value of their compensation. Sure have moved the argument.
"Value" by itself has no meaning. It always begs the question: "To
whom".
You don't get to determine the value of someone's home, Joel. They
know the value of their home, and they obviously disagree with your
armchair estimation.
Lisa
yaco...@aol.com
J J Levin wrote:
> > The statement that a Jewish leader should serve the people and not his
> > self interest is found throughout th eBible and Rabbinic literature.
>
> ... and that's what Sharon is doing, in his opinion.
Oh grow up. Sell your platitudes elsewhere. I live in reality.
> > The idea that a gentile or even a convert can hold NO political office
> > is found in the Talmud.
>
>
> Israel is not a halachic state.
BFD! It is a Jewish value, and we ar econtinually solicited ot support
eh "Jewish Sate" ! So what the F does that mean? Anything you and
your ilk want it to? Basta alraeady!
> Jay
Jacko
Susan Cohen
"Lisa" <li...@starways.net> wrote in message
news:1122646842.0...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> Susan Cohen wrote:
>> "Lisa" <li...@starways.net> wrote in message
>> news:1122638293.3...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > Susan Cohen wrote:
>> >> Wow, 2 posts in a row with which I can wholeheartedly agree!
>> >> Yasher koach, D!
>> >
>> > PDNFTT
>>
>> Um....what?
>
> Please Do Not Feed The Troll.
Yes, I looked it up later, sorry to have bothered you.
In this particular instance, I prefer to think of it as positive
reinforcement.
If he gets attention for good posts & nothing for bad ones, who knows what
might happen? If anything, I do believe in credit where credit is due.
Susan
>
> Lisa
>
Susan Cohen
"Joel Shurkin" <shu...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:dcdff1$5nr$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
> Now we are just nauseous and hope you and they will shut up.
You got a mouse in your pocket?
Susan
Susan Cohen
"Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dch5uj$9b$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk...
>
> is
> that to those who cannot stand the comparison only want people to consider
> the Nazi worst atrocities, as if the way the Nazis acted before they
> reached
> that stage was somehow not connected. I can't go with that, as far as I'm
> concerned the whole of the Nazi philosophy was evil, from beginning to
> end,
> not just the end. Therefore, comparison to the Nazism in its early stages
> is
> relevant, because the Nazis didn't start with the death camps, they built
> up
> to it. If we rely on the death camp stage to trigger reactions, it will
> too
> late.
And I think this is what the survivors meant when they comparted what is
going on to "the Holocaust." They obviously didn't mean just the camps and
the murders.
Susan
>
>
> Fiona
>
>
>
Susan Cohen
<darr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1122666079.2...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Susan Cohen wrote:
>
>> Fabulous post, D!> Susan
>
> Susan, thanks for the shout-out!ehe I always do my best work in the
Oh well.
Susan
Jackie
offered compensation and a place to go. Whwere do you get this idea?
Apparently the Israeli government has no permanent housing for them, plans
for schooling their children, places for them to worship. fields where they
can farm...
The idea seems to be get them out of there and then decide what to do.
Would you accept that for yourself?
Jackienews:dcdff2$5o5$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
> Fiona wrote:
> >
> >
> > "Joel Shurkin" <shu...@mac.com> wrote
> >
> >>Fiona wrote:
> >>
> >>>"J J Levin" <jjl...@optonline.net> wrote
> >
> >
> >>>>All you do is teach those children to hate the state. Is that what
you
> >>>>want?
> >>>
> >
> > sea,
> >
> >>>where their families were happy, and dump them in tents and portacabins
> >>>where their whole families will be miserable (and probably unemployed)
> >
> > and
> >
> >>>they won't grow up resenting what the state did to them?
> >>
> >>people who hate them, don't want them there, and are perfectly willing
> >>to run through the fences to shoot them, or to shoot at cars carrying
> >>them, or fire rockets into their beautiful gardens by the sea? And what
> >>about the children of a couple of million others who have to risk their
> >>lives to defend them? Jews survived because we have liquid assets. We
> >>are capable of getting up off our asses and moving when we had to
> >
> >
> > True, those who are forced to flee from the goyim generally start again
> > elsewhere. But the residents of Gaza are not being forced to flee from
> > goying, they are being evicted by Jews. Big difference.
>
> And being given hundreds of thousands of dollars and homes in Israel. I
> think they are even getting free moving trucks. What you get at most is
> an inconvenience.
>
>
> >
> >
> >>survived and they will survive and your sympathy is pathetic.
> >
> >
> > You should try a little empathy, or can't you?
>
> Not on this issue. No. I care too much.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> j
>
>
> --
> Joel N. Shurkin
> Baltimore, Maryland
> On the web at: www.shurkin.us
> and
> http://cabbageskings.blogspot.com
> http://yussel.blogspot.com
.
yaakov_...@hotmail.com
> > Two question for you to think about seriously:
> > (1) If the gov't decided to throw YOU out of YOUR
> > house, and treated YOU the same way as the people
> > of Gush Katif and their supporters, would you
> > feel the same way?
> > (2) Would you feel the same way if it were Arabs
> > whose communities were being destroyed by a "majority"
> > vote of the Knesset with leftist Knesset members being
> > openly bribed to support it?
> >
>
I read the article that your link showed. Pure propaganda. No facts,
just anecdotal stories from unknown figures who claim there is
no support for Gush Katif. Pravda would be proud.
I am still waiting for you answer to my questions above.
>
yaakov_...@hotmail.com
> And I also offer this from Haaretz. It seems that the settlers are upset
> because they are getting very little support from Diaspora Jews.
Are you aware the the leaders of the Conservative Movement in Israel,
Ehud Bandel, was fired because he repeatedly failed to raise any money
in the US for the Conservative movement in Israel? He made the rounds
of the Conservative communities in the US (I believe that they are the
largest community) and they refused to give him any money, even to
fight the Orthodox. Thus, I conclude that the report you are quoting
doesn't prove that American Jewry doesn't care about Gush Katif, it
proves that most American Jews don't care about Israel at all.
They
> are not getting it from individuals, they are not getting it from
> organizations outside of the right wing of Orthodoxy.
They are getting support from religious groups, even a lot of support.
Demonstrations have been held in New York for them and they have
a "Friends of Gush Katif" organization in New Jersey. The "Believe
and Sow" fund for the farmers has gotten a lot of support from
the US. Again, the fact that most American Jews don't care is
a given, they don't support their own movements in Israel.
Why they expected
> any is beyond me, but many of them live in a fantasy world, which
> appears to have spread to this list.
Presumably, you think everyone who disagrees with you lives
in a "fantasy world". Interesting.
Listen carefully: most Jews do not
> support the Gaza settlers,
The majority in Israel opposes the withdrawal. What you state is
factually incorrect. That is why Sharon refused to call elections
or a referendum in order to get a public mandate to diffuse the
opposition to his plan.
most Jews are repulsed by the behavior of
> some of them.
What behavior are you talking about? Don't forget, it was
Peres and Rabin who started the settlements in Gush Katif,
so if you blaming the "right-wing extremist religious settlers"
for "imposing their settlement plans on the Israeli public",
you have the wrong address. Blame Peres and Rabin.
They are, indeed, virtually alone.
Again, the majority of Israeli Jews oppose the plan to destroy
Gush Katif, so if you want to amuse yourself with incorrect
facts, go ahead, but it makes dialogue difficult.
>
> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/606119.html
>
>
Haaretz is printing political propaganda. They are not
committed to "journalistic ethics", they are committed
so being a mouthpiece for Shocken's radical post-Zionist
agenda.
Fiona
"J J Levin" <jjl...@optonline.net> wrote
> "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote
> > What I have noticed with these arguments, Lis, as I wrote in another
post
> > is
> > that to those who cannot stand the comparison only want people to
consider
> > the Nazi worst atrocities, as if the way the Nazis acted before they
> > reached
> > that stage was somehow not connected. I can't go with that, as far as
I'm
> > concerned the whole of the Nazi philosophy was evil, from beginning to
> > end,
> > not just the end. Therefore, comparison to the Nazism in its early
stages
> > is
> > relevant, because the Nazis didn't start with the death camps, they
built
> > up
> > to it. If we rely on the death camp stage to trigger reactions, it will
> > too
> > late.
>
> Untrue. The Nazis were thugs from the first.
Exactly! That is precisely what I said, the "Nazi philosophy was evil, from
beginning to end". And that is why to make an comparison between someone (be
they Islamists, Europeans or the Israeli Gov't) and the Nazis does not
require the existence of gas chambers and crematoria - as Joel insists -
just a similarity in thuggish philosophy against people you don't like.
> Also, please peruse Hitler's MEIN KAMPF. He makes no secret about his
hatred
> for the Jews and his desire to rid Germany and Europe of them.
As the Israeli Left make no secret of their hatred for religious Jews and
"settlers" and their desire to rid Yesha of them.
> It is really vile to compare the Israeli government, no matter how much
you
> dislike it, to the Nazis, even in their initial stages.
If the cap fits...
Fiona
Jackie
"Damien Sullivan" <pho...@ofb.net> wrote in message
news:dc93m2$ooh$1...@naig.caltech.edu...
> "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >where their families were happy, and dump them in tents and portacabins
> >where their whole families will be miserable (and probably unemployed)
and
> >they won't grow up resenting what the state did to them?
>
> gardens and near the sae, where their families were happy, which they'd
> fled during the war, were kept in miserable conditions first by Arab
> governments and then by Israel, and have grown up resenting Israel.
>
AFAIK.
> Not that they've forgotten, but life has gone on. And they didn't get as
much
> help as the settlers will be.
>
> -xx- Damien X-)
What help? I've not heard of any concrete (pun intended) offer of homes or
restitution for lost farms or greenhouses. There are words floating around,
but words are cheap.
Jackie
.
Giora Drachsler
>> present when their parents are removed from Gaza?
>
> parent is abusing the child, there is even less justification for someone
> to
> abuse both the child (by removing it from its parent) and the parent (by
> removing their child). Even if you are about to beat the living sh*t out
> of
> the parent, in the long term it is better that the child see how evil you
> are, in a short sharp lesson, than for them to be taken from their parent
> and to learn slowly about what you did to their family. But they aren't
> going to forgive you either way, and they will never blame their parents
> for
> defending their homes.
>
> Have you ever had a child taken away from you? Believe me, being beaten to
> pulp within an inch of your life is less painful. If the Israeli
> government
> start taking children away by force, then they really will provoke a blood
> bath - perhaps that's what they want, but it will backfire even the left -
> except perhaps the hardest of the hardliners - can empathise with the
> instinct to protect your children. So if the left (n.b. the social workers
> in the article) empathise, how much more so the floating voters of the
> centre.
>
>
> Fiona
Letting small children to take part of the forced removal of the parents
is a sure sign of abuse. If an adult takes a decision that might bring
violence so be it, but why involve children in that spectacle?
That's another example of believes taking over reasoning.
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel
Susan Cohen
"Jackie" <jcapp...@knology.net> wrote in message
news:de19e$42e8bbd7$186009e4$17...@KNOLOGY.NET...
>
> "Damien Sullivan" <pho...@ofb.net> wrote in message
> news:dc93m2$ooh$1...@naig.caltech.edu...
>> "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >Do you think you throw children out houses with gardens and near the
>> >sea,
>> >where their families were happy, and dump them in tents and portacabins
>> >where their whole families will be miserable (and probably unemployed)
> and
>> >they won't grow up resenting what the state did to them?
>>
>> After all, the Palestinians were prevented from returning to the homes
> with
>> gardens and near the sae, where their families were happy, which they'd
>> fled during the war, were kept in miserable conditions first by Arab
>> governments and then by Israel, and have grown up resenting Israel.
This is completely untrue.
They were "kept from returning" by their refusal to become Israeli citizens.
And even were this not true, when you abandon a country to its enemies, you
do not have a right to be accepted back in as tho' you'd done nothing.
And if they were to resent anyone, the fact that they only resent Israel
shows that their "resentment" is suspiciously selective.
>>
>> On the other hand, the WWII Japanese-Americans have mostly moved on,
> AFAIK.
>> Not that they've forgotten, but life has gone on. And they didn't get as
> much
>> help as the settlers will be.
>>
>> -xx- Damien X-)
>
> What help? I've not heard of any concrete (pun intended) offer of homes
> or
> restitution for lost farms or greenhouses. There are words floating
> around,
> but words are cheap.
They're too busy trying to pry the children out of the hands of their
parents.
Susan
Lisa
Giora Drachsler wrote:
> "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:dc8bv3$p09$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk...
>
> is a sure sign of abuse. If an adult takes a decision that might bring
> violence so be it, but why involve children in that spectacle?
>
> That's another example of believes taking over reasoning.
Hey Giora! It's been a while. You really weren't missed.
We're not talking about bringing children to the site of where
something is happening. We're talking about people in their own homes.
And hey, how about those abusive Jewish parents in Germany? It's
probably their fault that their children wound up on cattle cars,
right?
Lisa
J J Levin
>
> Giora Drachsler wrote:
>> "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:dc8bv3$p09$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk...
>>
>> Letting small children to take part of the forced removal of the parents
>> is a sure sign of abuse. If an adult takes a decision that might bring
>> violence so be it, but why involve children in that spectacle?
>>
>> That's another example of believes taking over reasoning.
>
> Hey Giora! It's been a while. You really weren't missed.
>
> We're not talking about bringing children to the site of where
> something is happening. We're talking about people in their own homes.
>
That's right. And when you know there is a potential for violence, you get
your kids out of there and send them to your family up north. Unless you're
a fanatic and wish to raise little fanatics as well, and while you're at it
imbue them with a bit of hatred towards the army, in which they'll have to
serve in a few years,. Brilliant.
> And hey, how about those abusive Jewish parents in Germany? It's
> probably their fault that their children wound up on cattle cars,
> right?
>
Comparing the Nazis to the Israeli government again? This is sick.
Jay
yaakov_...@hotmail.com
> Letting small children to take part of the forced removal of the parents
> is a sure sign of abuse. If an adult takes a decision that might bring
> violence so be it, but why involve children in that spectacle?
>
> That's another example of believes taking over reasoning.
The children are sitting in their own homes minding their
own business. It is the regime that is using force and terror
to throw them out. It is not like the parents are bringing
them there in order to cause trouble. It is the regime
that is the child abuser, not the parents. Blame Sharon.
Andy Katz
What is particularly ironic here, Jay, is that the PA is so often
compared to the Nazis by the right, yet those who would remove
families from a zone to be occupied by these Pallynazis are themselves
Nazis.
Andy Katz
Lisa
J J Levin wrote:
> "Lisa" <li...@starways.net> wrote in message
> news:1122899165.6...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Giora Drachsler wrote:
> >> "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> news:dc8bv3$p09$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk...
> >>
> >> Letting small children to take part of the forced removal of the parents
> >> is a sure sign of abuse. If an adult takes a decision that might bring
> >> violence so be it, but why involve children in that spectacle?
> >>
> >> That's another example of believes taking over reasoning.
> >
> > Hey Giora! It's been a while. You really weren't missed.
> >
> > We're not talking about bringing children to the site of where
> > something is happening. We're talking about people in their own homes.
>
> That's right. And when you know there is a potential for violence, you get
> your kids out of there and send them to your family up north. Unless you're
> a fanatic and wish to raise little fanatics as well, and while you're at it
> imbue them with a bit of hatred towards the army, in which they'll have to
> serve in a few years,. Brilliant.
Jay, Jews have been around a lot longer than Dawlat Israil. And we'll
still be here if it goes away.
Eretz Yisrael belongs to Am Yisrael. Not some state that sometimes
acts for our good and sometimes acts against us.
> > And hey, how about those abusive Jewish parents in Germany? It's
> > probably their fault that their children wound up on cattle cars,
> > right?
>
> Comparing the Nazis to the Israeli government again? This is sick.
<laugh> You really are a piece of work. I did no such thing. Some
parents in Germany saw a threat coming, and sent their children off on
the Kindertransport. Some didn't. Some felt that they were loyal
Germans, and they'd be damned if they'd act like fugitives in their own
homes.
People like you want to make the people living in "settlements" out to
be something like Branch Davidians, and you're fairly champing at the
bit to have your own little Waco. The siege of Kfar Maimon must have
been a great disappointment to you. Tens of thousands of crazy orange
settlers, and not a single scuffle. No easy opportunity to go start
breaking heads.
Lisa
Joel Shurkin
snip
>
> What I have noticed with these arguments, Lis, as I wrote in another post is
> that to those who cannot stand the comparison only want people to consider
> the Nazi worst atrocities, as if the way the Nazis acted before they reached
> that stage was somehow not connected. I can't go with that, as far as I'm
> concerned the whole of the Nazi philosophy was evil, from beginning to end,
> not just the end. Therefore, comparison to the Nazism in its early stages is
> relevant, because the Nazis didn't start with the death camps, they built up
> to it. If we rely on the death camp stage to trigger reactions, it will too
> late.
>
So we can expect death camps in Israel eny minute, huh?
J
>
> Fiona
Joel Shurkin
She brought it up as a major tragedy akin to the outrages of Nazism. Now
she's arguing whether the compensation package is big enough?
J