When did Jews start to wear a tallis?
mm
I'm watching the memorial service from Fort Hood, and the last
speaker, a chaplain, is wearing an all black tallis, over his
camouflage fatigues. Well, it's not really a tallis and it has no
fringes but it made me wonder. The thing some ministers, priests, and
the Pope wear sure looks like it was copied from the tallis, at least
a Conservative tallis, but now that I think about it, the beginning of
Xianity might pre-date the use of a tallis. When did the tallis
begin? Are they copying us?.
The service was maybe 45 minutes and very moving.
There were two quotations from Isaiah (one man said that it was
traditional at an army memorial service to quote the part "Who will be
there... I will") and I think one or two Torah quotes, by 2 or 3 of
the speakers. None I think from the Xian Bible, and the Koran is not
big on the hit list today. One or more of the soldiers was crying
when Amazing Grace was sung just before the last speaker, and several
had their head in their arms. They only showed a small part of the
whole audience.
--
Meir
"The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
Micha Berger
> When did Jews start to wear a tallis?
Shortly before the events of Chanukah, when the tallis was in style
in Hellenic circles. Back then the stripes we have today were common,
as that was also style, but the tallis was more like a pages's uniform,
like an elongated version of a tallis qatan (the "tzitzis" worn beneath
the shirt) and not the simple rectangle of today.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger If you won't be better tomorrow
mi...@aishdas.org than you were today,
http://www.aishdas.org then what do you need tomorrow for?
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Rebbe Nachman of Breslov
Abe Kohen
"Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote in message
news:hdcq4q$e6a$2...@harrier.steinthal.us...
> mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> When did Jews start to wear a tallis?
>
> Shortly before the events of Chanukah, when the tallis was in style
> in Hellenic circles. Back then the stripes we have today were common,
> as that was also style, but the tallis was more like a pages's uniform,
> like an elongated version of a tallis qatan (the "tzitzis" worn beneath
> the shirt) and not the simple rectangle of today.
Nu, Micha. Was it tallis or tallit in Greek?
Best,
Abe
[e-mailed & posted]
Micha Berger
> Nu, Micha. Was it tallis or tallit in Greek?
Tallis. Not tallit or tallith. The final letter is sigma; now that you
point it out it's interesting that it was transliterated as sav, which I
would have thought was a sound the undotted tav wasn't yet drafted into,
rather than samech or sin.
To quote from an Oct 19th post:
The word is Greek, which is why the talmud, Sepharadi sources and earlier
Ashkenazi rishonim pluralize as either "tallisos", adding the "-os" to the
full word, or "talliyos", as though the "-is" was a feminine diminutive
in Hebrew rather than the Greek iota-sigma, denoting the nominative
case (the subject of the verb). Both are used because it's a loan word,
and therefore the standard grammar rules don't necessarily apply.
(Later Ashk sources use the Yiddishism "talleisim", which in Hebrew
would be a male pluralization of a feminine word.)
BTW, the Greek tallis was more like a long version of our tallis qatan
(tzitzis garment worn under the shirt) -- with a neck hole. Something
like what a knight's squire would wear. I don't know when it became a
simple cloth rectangle.
Avrum Lapin
"Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote:
I remember in 1948 when I was about 10 the principal of our cheder stood
up and announced that "s" would hereafter be pronounced "t" and I was
dumbfounded that he could make that change.
lee
> In article <hdd297$jk...@harrier.steinthal.us>,
> "Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
> > "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote in message
> >news:hdcq4q$e6a$2...@harrier.steinthal.us...
> > >> When did Jews start to wear a tallis?
>
> > > Shortly before the events of Chanukah, when the tallis was in style
> > > in Hellenic circles. Back then the stripes we have today were common,
> > > as that was also style, but the tallis was more like a pages's uniform,
> > > like an elongated version of a tallis qatan (the "tzitzis" worn beneath
> > > the shirt) and not the simple rectangle of today.
>
> > Nu, Micha. Was it tallis or tallit in Greek?
>
> I remember in 1948 when I was about 10 the principal of our cheder stood
> up and announced that "s" would hereafter be pronounced "t" and I was
> dumbfounded that he could make that change.
I always remember them being called tzitzi & having difficulty with
the spelling & pronunciation
mirjam
> In article <hdd297$jk...@harrier.steinthal.us>,
> "Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
> > "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote in message
> >news:hdcq4q$e6a$2...@harrier.steinthal.us...
> > >> When did Jews start to wear a tallis?
>
> > > Shortly before the events of Chanukah, when the tallis was in style
> > > in Hellenic circles. Back then the stripes we have today were common,
> > > as that was also style, but the tallis was more like a pages's uniform,
> > > like an elongated version of a tallis qatan (the "tzitzis" worn beneath
> > > the shirt) and not the simple rectangle of today.
>
> > Nu, Micha. Was it tallis or tallit in Greek?
>
> I remember in 1948 when I was about 10 the principal of our cheder stood
> up and announced that "s" would hereafter be pronounced "t" and I was
> dumbfounded that he could make that change.
It is thought that it is connected to TYLE =tablecloth , but other
think it is from the Hebrew Talal =covered .... and i even heard
sometimes that it is connected to Tlika , a cloth that binds the
hips and holds some tiny things in the folds.
mirjam
mm
Interesting timing. I think I was about 11, but it was 1958. 10
years later. I think we were in the boondocks and found out about
this stuff later than you did. Or you cheder was Zionist and had an
awakening.
I had moved from a small town where the Hebrew school was one person,
the rabbi, who taught all grades, one day a week for an hour iirc.
To Indianapolis, in 1957, which had iirc 2 classes of the 6th grade
and class was 5 hours a week. With 5 hours a week, I thought everyone
was very far ahead of me, but decades later I figured out that some
had only started that year.
Anyhow, I think I was there about a year when the teacher said
something. He didn't concentrate on tallis, but on all the
differences in Sephardic pronunciation, which he said was, in
different words, "the wave of the future". It probably helped him
think that that he was Israeli, and so were most of the new teachers,
that year and expected.
It took me 10 years to get pretty reliable at using Sephardic, and for
10 years I was pretty good at it. But I found out that despite the
wave of the future, most Orthodox Jews in the US hadn't changed. Who
knew? So it took me 10 more years to get back to using Ashkenazic,
and I still make mistakes by using the other. The one good thing is
that, though my conversational Hebrew is very very sketchy, I have
little trouble pronouncing it right when in Israel.
mm
<NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>I had moved from a small town where the Hebrew school was one person,
>the rabbi, who taught all grades, one day a week for an hour iirc.
I meant one day a week for an hour for each class. I don't know how
many clases there were. There were only five kids in my class, and I
think we were the same age, but maybe in some classes kids from
different grades were included together. Public school got out at
3:30 and Hebrew school started at 4:00, every year.
It took us until the 3rd grade to get to the past tense.
Herman Rubin
mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:22:49 +0000 (UTC), mm
><NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>I had moved from a small town where the Hebrew school was one person,
>>the rabbi, who taught all grades, one day a week for an hour iirc.
>I meant one day a week for an hour for each class. I don't know how
>many clases there were. There were only five kids in my class, and I
>think we were the same age, but maybe in some classes kids from
>different grades were included together. Public school got out at
>3:30 and Hebrew school started at 4:00, every year.
>It took us until the 3rd grade to get to the past tense.
Considering that the root is usually the third person
masculine singular in the perfect (which is not the
same as past) tense, this seems to me to be a bad way
to teach Hebrew. In modern Hebrew, the perfect is
almost a past, but not so in Biblical Hebrew.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hru...@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
mm
(Herman Rubin) wrote:
>In article <v24mf59vqgukmkl9h...@4ax.com>,
>mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:22:49 +0000 (UTC), mm
>><NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>I had moved from a small town where the Hebrew school was one person,
>>>the rabbi, who taught all grades, one day a week for an hour iirc.
>
>>I meant one day a week for an hour for each class. I don't know how
>>many clases there were. There were only five kids in my class, and I
>>think we were the same age, but maybe in some classes kids from
>>different grades were included together. Public school got out at
>>3:30 and Hebrew school started at 4:00, every year.
>
>>It took us until the 3rd grade to get to the past tense.
>
>Considering that the root is usually the third person
>masculine singular in the perfect (which is not the
>same as past) tense, this seems to me to be a bad way
>to teach Hebrew.
I'm not impressed with it either. In 5 years and 3 months, we didn't
get to the future tense at all. That's partly because we went only
an hour a week, I think.
>In modern Hebrew, the perfect is
>almost a past, but not so in Biblical Hebrew.
--
Meir
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>>I had moved from a small town where the Hebrew school was one person,
>>the rabbi, who taught all grades, one day a week for an hour iirc.
>
> I meant one day a week for an hour for each class. I don't know how
> many clases there were. There were only five kids in my class, and I
> think we were the same age, but maybe in some classes kids from
> different grades were included together. Public school got out at
> 3:30 and Hebrew school started at 4:00, every year.
>
> It took us until the 3rd grade to get to the past tense.
I assume you first had to learn how to _read_, before you started
grammar. And I imagine much of the time was spent learning _about_
Shabbos and all the Jewish Holidays. And one hour a week is not a
lot of time. So I'm not surprised.
--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
mm
>mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> writes:
>> mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I had moved from a small town where the Hebrew school was one person,
>>>the rabbi, who taught all grades, one day a week for an hour iirc.
>>
>> I meant one day a week for an hour for each class. I don't know how
>> many clases there were. There were only five kids in my class, and I
>> think we were the same age, but maybe in some classes kids from
>> different grades were included together. Public school got out at
>> 3:30 and Hebrew school started at 4:00, every year.
>>
>> It took us until the 3rd grade to get to the past tense.
>
>I assume you first had to learn how to _read_, before you started
>grammar.
Learning to read didn't take that much time, imo. We learned about 5
letters or ta'am (which were called vowels) every week. So 6, maybe 7
weeks to learn the alephbais. The book started with syllables the
first week, with combinations of two letters and one vowel. Maybe
two syllable words by the fourth or sixth week. I had no trouble
saying hes or chof, but I couldn't say tsadee. I would try but it
always came out stadee. After two weeks of trying, when I was 5 1/2,
I remember where I was standing, across the street from our house, and
I thought about the Stitsingers, who had moved from down the block,
and about how theeir name was spoken, and I stripped off syllables
from Stitsinger until I could says tsing.
It took less than 5 minutes. After that I had no trouble.
This same technique works for any combination of consonants used in
any language.
> And I imagine much of the time was spent learning _about_
>Shabbos and all the Jewish Holidays.
There was also Sunday school, iirc 2 hours on Sunday. Taught by
volunteers. In fact my brother once taught a class when he was in
high school. This was a small town, Reform congregation. In Hebrew
school during the week, there was no time spent on Shabbes, or afaicr,
anything other than Hebrew. I guess I might call it modern Hebrew, or
maybe just simple Hebrew.
But in Sunday school too, I don't think they spent any time on Shabbes
either, but did on Chanukah, Purim, and Pesach and maybe Sukkos. The
High Holidays were over I think before the school year started, so
they weren't discussed in the fall, or the late spring. Summer had no
school.
> And one hour a week is not a
>lot of time. So I'm not surprised.
Definitely.