What to do when a non-Jewish friend has a viewing prior to a funeral
mm
funeral? Sunday afternoon. There will probably be little if any
religious content. The point of my question is not about that but
about the open casket *viewing*.
Do you / would you go at all?
Would you go, say hello to the family (son and daughter, 6-year old
grandchild) and stay at the other end of the room?
I plan to go to the funeral regardless, but don't most people go to
both? I don't want to disrespect her.
I've been to two open-casket funeral before. One I was 18 and I
looked, one I was ~40 and made a point to do no more than glance at as
I walked by on my way to sitting next to someone I knew.
Do you think I'm being traditional, squeamish, or what in my
reluctance?
My friend is the one who died. I barely know her son, don't know her
daughter. She's the first person I was in regular contact with about
my age who has died. (One kid from grammar school was killed in Viet
Nam, one committed suicide, and one fraternity brother, our of 20, who
I was least close to, lived in Hawaii and died in Japan maybe 10 years
after college. I didnt' find out about any of these until years or
months later. Everyone else has been a generation older.)
--
Meir
"The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
Steve Goldfarb
I've been to a couple of these, one fairly recently. In these two there
was no "service" or anything like that. Just the coffin at the front,
various photos and things of the deceased set up around the room for
people to look at and talk about, and the family. People would come in,
greet the family, look at the pictures, maybe talk a bit, sit for a while,
then leave.
I felt awkward at first, but it really seemed to mean a lot to the
families to have people come - I'm glad I did, in both cases.
--s
--
Steve Goldfarb
>In <l0gni55haj6i7bdo4...@4ax.com> mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> writes:
>>My friend is the one who died. I barely know her son, don't know her
>>daughter. She's the first person I was in regular contact with about
Oh, and sorry for your loss. I recommend going - I'm sure the son and
daughter will appreciate it, and you probably won't need to get involved
in any extensive/awkward conversation with them, just a quick handshake
and word of condolence. Might make you feel better too - the one I went to
recently was for the brother of a guy I like but don't know that well,
he's a friend of friends, but even so I found the experience moving, and
as I said he really seemed to appreciate it.
--s
--
Don Levey
> What to do when a close non-Jewish friend has a viewing prior to a
> funeral? Sunday afternoon. There will probably be little if any
> religious content. The point of my question is not about that but
> about the open casket *viewing*.
>
> Do you / would you go at all?
>
> Would you go, say hello to the family (son and daughter, 6-year old
> grandchild) and stay at the other end of the room?
>
while Judaism doesn't do viewings, I wanted to come and pay respects to
the family.
I was shocked at my grandmother's funeral (almost 9 years ago) when, at
an otherwise nominally Jewish funeral home, we were offered a viewing
before the service. Both my sister and I reflexively answered "no"
before my father and uncle had a chance to even open their mouths.
--
Don Levey, Framingam MA If knowledge is power,
(email address in header works) and power corrupts, then...
NOTE: Don't send mail to to sal...@the-leveys.us
GnuPG public key: http://www.the-leveys.us:6080/keys/don-dsakey.asc
sheldonlg
> What to do when a close non-Jewish friend has a viewing prior to a
> funeral? Sunday afternoon. There will probably be little if any
> religious content. The point of my question is not about that but
> about the open casket *viewing*.
>
> Do you / would you go at all?
Yes.
>
> Would you go, say hello to the family (son and daughter, 6-year old
> grandchild) and stay at the other end of the room?
Yes and then no, but I don't actually view the body. Not for religious
reasons. Just that I don't like to.
>
> I plan to go to the funeral regardless, but don't most people go to
> both? I don't want to disrespect her.
You don't have to view the body. Most likely no one will notice either way.
>
> I've been to two open-casket funeral before. One I was 18 and I
> looked, one I was ~40 and made a point to do no more than glance at as
> I walked by on my way to sitting next to someone I knew.
I'm with you there.
>
> Do you think I'm being traditional, squeamish, or what in my
> reluctance?
We never really want to ponder our own mortality -- especially as we get
older. Seeing a dead body makes it hit home. Quite understandable.
>
> My friend is the one who died. I barely know her son, don't know her
> daughter. She's the first person I was in regular contact with about
> my age who has died. (One kid from grammar school was killed in Viet
> Nam, one committed suicide, and one fraternity brother, our of 20, who
> I was least close to, lived in Hawaii and died in Japan maybe 10 years
> after college. I didnt' find out about any of these until years or
> months later. Everyone else has been a generation older.)
Sadly, you had better start getting used to it. It seems to come more
often the older we get. :-(
Evertjan.
>> Do you / would you go at all?
>
> Yes.
Seems no one is considering the case that the viewer is a kohen?
--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)
Don Levey
> sheldonlg wrote on 18 dec 2009 in soc.culture.jewish.moderated:
>
>>> Do you / would you go at all?
>> Yes.
>
> Seems no one is considering the case that the viewer is a kohen?
>
>
Evertjan.
> Evertjan. wrote:
>> sheldonlg wrote on 18 dec 2009 in soc.culture.jewish.moderated:
>>
>>>> Do you / would you go at all?
>>> Yes.
>>
>> Seems no one is considering the case that the viewer is a kohen?
>>
>>
> No-one who responded, as far as I can tell, *is* a kohen.
So why not generalize the Q to include this?
Joe Bruno
> What to do when a close non-Jewish friend has a viewing prior to a
> funeral? Sunday afternoon. There will probably be little if any
> religious content. The point of my question is not about that but
> about the open casket *viewing*.
>
> Do you / would you go at all?
No. I believe Catholics call it a "wake". It is based on the belief
that Jesus arose from the dead after 3 days.
Going to such an event tells the world that you believe Jesus was the
Son of God who awoke and went to his Father in heaven after being dead
for 3 days. By contrast, Orthodox Jews insist the body be buried
within 24 hours after death.
Susan S
<NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com>:
>What to do when a close non-Jewish friend has a viewing prior to a
>funeral? Sunday afternoon. There will probably be little if any
>religious content. The point of my question is not about that but
>about the open casket *viewing*.
>
>Do you / would you go at all?
>
If it were me and not going would be more problematic than going, I
would go long enough to sign the book and greet the family, then leave
without actually viewing. That is what I have done in the past.
When I was in my early 20s and went to a viewing without having any idea
what one was, I hated it. One "viewing" was enough. That being said,
non-Jews do what they must with their death and funeral rituals just as
we do. YMMV.
Susan Silberstein
Amitai
> Don Levey wrote on 18 dec 2009 in soc.culture.jewish.moderated:
>
> > Evertjan. wrote:
> >> sheldonlg wrote on 18 dec 2009 in soc.culture.jewish.moderated:
>
> >>>> Do you / would you go at all?
> >>> Yes.
>
> >> Seems no one is considering the case that the viewer is a kohen?
>
> > No-one who responded, as far as I can tell, *is* a kohen.
>
> So why not generalize the Q to include this?
>
If the Rambam's ruling (Hilkhot Tum'ah 1:15; see also Yebamot 61a)
holds, being under the same roof with the corpse of a non-Jew does
not constitute defilement, though touching it would be.
.
Therefore, it would appear that a Kohen should feel free to attend
the viewing.
Amitai
(PeteCresswell)
>
>When I was in my early 20s and went to a viewing without having any idea
>what one was, I hated it. One "viewing" was enough. That being said,
>non-Jews do what they must with their death and funeral rituals just as
>we do. YMMV.
One thing that could be said in defense of viewings: closure.
Once you've seen the body, you know for sure the person is dead.
Fifteen years ago, somebody very, very close to me died. To this
day I occasionally see somebody on the street with just such a
hair line, or posture, or profile and my heart jumps as I think
"He made it!.... He's not really dead!"
But then I remember that I actually saw the body and that memory
gets me back on track instead of obsessing over somebody who is
no more.
--
PeteCresswell
Abe Kohen
"Amitai" <chr...@techunix.technion.ac.il> wrote in message
news:c20ff58d-e36a-450a...@m16g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
I am hardly qualified as a "poseq", but Micha isn't posting!
If the Rambam's ruling (Hilkhot Tum'ah 1:15; see also Yebamot 61a)
holds, being under the same roof with the corpse of a non-Jew does
not constitute defilement, though touching it would be.
.
Therefore, it would appear that a Kohen should feel free to attend
the viewing.
Amitai
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(fucking quoting problem between googlegroups and outlook express)
Amitai,
Thank you for your analysis.
Perhaps it's a child survivor of the Holocaust who was adopted by gentiles.
Or a Cadrinal Lustiger. One can never be sure that the corpse is not of a
Jew, hence I cannot imagine a leniency for a Kohen to attend a viewing.
With that said, when they had a ceremony (there was no body) for my former
colleague Montegomery Hord, a proud American father of 3 children under the
age of 10, killed by Islamofascists in the WTC on 9/11, in a church (a
problem for Kohanim, if not for other Jews) in Westchester County, I made a
decision to go. God, or happenstance, made me get there late. The church was
overflowing, and the only spaces left were in the backyard of the church
where I listened via loudspeakers to the service and various eulegies.
Shavua Tov,
Abe
Arthur Kamlet
Abe Kohen <abek...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>"Amitai" <chr...@techunix.technion.ac.il> wrote in message
>news:c20ff58d-e36a-450a...@m16g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
>I am hardly qualified as a "poseq", but Micha isn't posting!
>
>If the Rambam's ruling (Hilkhot Tum'ah 1:15; see also Yebamot 61a)
>holds, being under the same roof with the corpse of a non-Jew does
>not constitute defilement, though touching it would be.
>.
>Therefore, it would appear that a Kohen should feel free to attend
>the viewing.
>
>Amitai
>-----------------------
>
>
>Thank you for your analysis.
>
>Perhaps it's a child survivor of the Holocaust who was adopted by gentiles.
>Or a Cadrinal Lustiger. One can never be sure that the corpse is not of a
>Jew, hence I cannot imagine a leniency for a Kohen to attend a viewing.
Seems that you are in agreement there is a definite safek about
the deceased being a gentile. And there is a safek for all Kohanim
these days.
So in a double safek situation, leniency is generaly called for,
--
ArtKamlet at a o l dot c o m Columbus OH K2PZH
sheldonlg
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> (***deleted*** quoting problem between googlegroups and outlook express)
No matter how valid your anger I (and I can fully empathize), for one,
would appreciate it if such strong vulgarity were not posted here.
mm
Thanks to all of you for your replies.
Several seemed to have the impression that I had to go to show
respect, but as I said, I'm going to the funeral regardless. (Who
knows, the casket may be open there too.) So going to the viewing
isn't necessary for that reason. Do you still feel the same way?
In this case, it's reallly unlikely she's descended from anusim or a
Jew in some other way. She's black and her parents are black, and
when she was little, they took her to church, and when she lived at
home she went with them to church.
And it's as unlikely I'm a kohain as it is for almost any Jew .
I learned about the plans from a girlfriend of my late friend, who
said that on Monday, the wake was at 10 and the funeral at 11. I
hadn't heard of this system either. They aren't Catholics.
My friend and I were chatting a few months ago before she got sick, or
before she knew she was sick (pancreatic cancer) and she told me that
she hadn't been to church since she moved out of her parents' house.
(That would have been when she was 18 or 22, and she was 58 or 63 when
she said this. But I don't like to ask personal questions so we didn't
get much farther than that. Then, when I talked to her after she knew
she was dying, she told me several things about God's plan, and that
he wouldn't do the wrong thing, etc. I wish I had asked her about
God before she was sick, but I don't like to ask personal questions.
BTW, I learned at work, that if I say anything about God, I'll be sure
to say God and not "the Lord". It turns out a lot/most/almost all? of
Xians use that word for Jesus, and would after a whole life of using
it that way, very much tend to think that's who I meant too.
I've been to one other funeral or memorial service at this place, very
nearby, years ago. I got a phone message about a funeral, didn't
recognize the name, but went anyhow. It turned out they called me
because I was pres. of the Mosaic Outdoor Mountain Club, MOMC, and
they confused me with the pres of the Maryland Mountain Club, MMC,
where the guy had been a very active member. It was not Xian, nor any
particular religion (nor was the man a Jew), though they did talk
about God.
The "program" included a verse that I can't remember from the Tanach
or Talmud that said something nice about nature, very very apropos to
hiking, etc. except that it wasn't actually in the Tanach or Talmud.
Someone just thought so.
fla...@verizon.net
On 18-Dec-2009, Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote:
> mm wrote:
> > What to do when a close non-Jewish friend has a viewing prior to a
> > funeral? Sunday afternoon. There will probably be little if any
> > religious content. The point of my question is not about that but
> > about the open casket *viewing*.
> >
> > Do you / would you go at all?
> >
> > Would you go, say hello to the family (son and daughter, 6-year old
> > grandchild) and stay at the other end of the room?
> >
> In similar situations, this is what I have done. If asked I say that
> while Judaism doesn't do viewings, I wanted to come and pay respects to
> the family.
>
> I was shocked at my grandmother's funeral (almost 9 years ago) when, at
> an otherwise nominally Jewish funeral home, we were offered a viewing
> before the service. Both my sister and I reflexively answered "no"
> before my father and uncle had a chance to even open their mouths.
They offered my mother a chance to see Dad before we
buried him - I was also surprised. But my brother and I
had already trained ourselves to wait for Mom to make
a decision - or signal in some way that she could not.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 20-Dec-2009, mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> Several seemed to have the impression that I had to go to show
> respect, but as I said, I'm going to the funeral regardless. (Who
> knows, the casket may be open there too.)
If it's any help, I have never been to a Catholic funeral that did this.
Susan
mm
They're NOT Catholics.
That had an open casket?
FWIW, the one I went to when I was 40 was by Catholics. They had a
wake I think at the funeral home, and the funeral the same place the
following day. The 40-year old woman who died probably wouldnn't have
called herself one anymore, but her parents were in charge.
The most intereresting thing was... I had seen dozens of gentile
funerals in movies, and in the movies, the mourners etc. always left
when the casket was still above ground level. I thought that was
some dramatic device, but when I went to this funeral, they actually
did it that way. I found it amazing.
>
>Susan
Susan S
<NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com>:
>On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:43:46 +0000 (UTC), Susan S
><otoerem...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>>In soc.culture.jewish.moderated I read this message from mm
>><NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com>:
>>
>>>What to do when a close non-Jewish friend has a viewing prior to a
>>>funeral? Sunday afternoon. There will probably be little if any
>>>religious content. The point of my question is not about that but
>>>about the open casket *viewing*.
>>>
>>>Do you / would you go at all?
>>>
>>If it were me and not going would be more problematic than going, I
>>would go long enough to sign the book and greet the family, then leave
>>without actually viewing. That is what I have done in the past.
>>
>>When I was in my early 20s and went to a viewing without having any idea
>>what one was, I hated it. One "viewing" was enough. That being said,
>>non-Jews do what they must with their death and funeral rituals just as
>>we do. YMMV.
>>
>>Susan Silberstein
>
>Thanks to all of you for your replies.
>
>Several seemed to have the impression that I had to go to show
>respect, but as I said, I'm going to the funeral regardless. (Who
>knows, the casket may be open there too.) So going to the viewing
>isn't necessary for that reason. Do you still feel the same way?
>
I was not suggesting that you not go to the funeral; my remarks were
solely confined to the viewing. In your situation, I would go to the
funeral. I go to the funerals of non-Jewish friends without hesitation.
Susan Silberstein
Dermot Goldstein
Leaving while the coffin/casket is still above ground is an American
thing. In the UK, the mourners wait for the casket to be lowered into
the ground...and sometimes throw pieces of earth onto the casket when
it's been lowered.
BTW in Eastern Europe it is not uncommon for the casket to be open up
to the point just before the body is buried.
Henry Goodman
news:4b2f3f6f....@news.x-privat.org...
And, of course, at Jewish funerals the mourners (and any other males
present) shovel earth on to the coffin and do not leave until it is totally
covered.
--
Henry Goodman
henry dot goodman at virgin dot net
Abe Kohen
news:hgk0i6$92p$1...@reader1.panix.com...
> In article <hgjvqd$5h9$1...@harrier.steinthal.us>,
> Abe Kohen <abek...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>"Amitai" <chr...@techunix.technion.ac.il> wrote in message
>>news:c20ff58d-e36a-450a...@m16g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
>>I am hardly qualified as a "poseq", but Micha isn't posting!
>>
>>If the Rambam's ruling (Hilkhot Tum'ah 1:15; see also Yebamot 61a)
>>holds, being under the same roof with the corpse of a non-Jew does
>>not constitute defilement, though touching it would be.
>>.
>>Therefore, it would appear that a Kohen should feel free to attend
>>the viewing.
>>
>>Amitai
>>-----------------------
>>
>>Amitai,
>>
>>Thank you for your analysis.
>>
>>Perhaps it's a child survivor of the Holocaust who was adopted by
>>gentiles.
>>Or a Cadrinal Lustiger. One can never be sure that the corpse is not of a
>>Jew, hence I cannot imagine a leniency for a Kohen to attend a viewing.
>
> Seems that you are in agreement there is a definite safek about
> the deceased being a gentile. And there is a safek for all Kohanim
> these days.
What safek might that be?
> So in a double safek situation, leniency is generaly called for,
Don't think so, as I don't consider the act a leniency.
And while I respect both you and Amitai, I don't think I'll follow your
advice. No offense.
Best,
Abe
Don Levey
I have.
Amitai
> "Arthur Kamlet" <kam...@panix.com> wrote in message
>
> news:hgk0i6$92p$1...@reader1.panix.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Abe Kohen <abeko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>"Amitai" <chr0...@techunix.technion.ac.il> wrote in message
> >>news:c20ff58d-e36a-450a...@m16g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
> >>I am hardly qualified as a "poseq", but Micha isn't posting!
>
> >>If the Rambam's ruling (Hilkhot Tum'ah 1:15; see also Yebamot 61a)
> >>holds, being under the same roof with the corpse of a non-Jew does
> >>not constitute defilement, though touching it would be.
> >>.
> >>Therefore, it would appear that a Kohen should feel free to attend
> >>the viewing.
>
> >>Amitai
> >>-----------------------
>
> >>Amitai,
>
> >>Thank you for your analysis.
>
> >>Perhaps it's a child survivor of the Holocaust who was adopted by
> >>gentiles.
> >>Or a Cadrinal Lustiger. One can never be sure that the corpse is not of a
> >>Jew, hence I cannot imagine a leniency for a Kohen to attend a viewing.
>
> > Seems that you are in agreement there is a definite safek about
> > the deceased being a gentile. And there is a safek for all Kohanim
> > these days.
>
> What safek might that be?
>
Lamentations 5:11 is cited as evidence that we can never be certain of
of our genetic origin. This is particularly true of the male
component, which determines whether or not one is genetically a
Kohen.
> > So in a double safek situation, leniency is generaly called for,
>
> Don't think so, as I don't consider the act a leniency.
>
The act, i.e., viewing, is neither a stringency or a leniency. The
double safeq provides the leniency for performing the act if you feel
obliged to perform it.
> And while I respect both you and Amitai, I don't think I'll follow your
> advice. No offense.
>
No offence taken. I give you blanket approval to ignore any and all
advice that I may give you on any and all halakhic or non-halakhic
matters. :-)
Amitai
> Best,
> Abe- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
mm
<otoerem...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
I didn't think anyone was suggesting that. Sort of the opposite, that
some missed that I was going to the funeral and therefore thought
there was a greater need to show my respect by going to the viewing.
> my remarks were
>solely confined to the viewing. In your situation, I would go to the
>funeral. I go to the funerals of non-Jewish friends without hesitation.
>
>Susan Silberstein
--
Yisroel Markov
<abek...@gmail.com> said:
>
>"Amitai" <chr...@techunix.technion.ac.il> wrote in message
>news:c20ff58d-e36a-450a...@m16g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
>I am hardly qualified as a "poseq", but Micha isn't posting!
>
>If the Rambam's ruling (Hilkhot Tum'ah 1:15; see also Yebamot 61a)
>holds, being under the same roof with the corpse of a non-Jew does
>not constitute defilement, though touching it would be.
>.
>Therefore, it would appear that a Kohen should feel free to attend
>the viewing.
>
>Amitai
I'm not a posek either, but FWIW I can't find any objections to Meir's
going to this ceremony.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>(******** quoting problem between googlegroups and outlook express)
>
>Amitai,
>
>Thank you for your analysis.
>
>Perhaps it's a child survivor of the Holocaust who was adopted by gentiles.
>Or a Cadrinal Lustiger. One can never be sure that the corpse is not of a
>Jew, hence I cannot imagine a leniency for a Kohen to attend a viewing.
In questions of tuma, the halakha is often decided by the prevalent
case. E.g., "all vessels found in Jerusalem are assumed to be tahor"
(Mishna Sh'kalim 5 and ff).
>With that said, when they had a ceremony (there was no body) for my former
>colleague Montegomery Hord, a proud American father of 3 children under the
>age of 10, killed by Islamofascists in the WTC on 9/11, in a church (a
>problem for Kohanim, if not for other Jews) in Westchester County, I made a
>decision to go. God, or happenstance, made me get there late. The church was
>overflowing, and the only spaces left were in the backyard of the church
>where I listened via loudspeakers to the service and various eulegies.
A church would be a problem for any Jew, I'd think. (I understand your
motives, I think.)
--
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
sheldonlg
I have been to such a service in a church. What I did was sit in the
back and stay seated so as to not participate. After the service I gave
my condolences to the family. My reasoning? I know and God knows I am
not there to pray, but just to pay my respects.
fla...@verizon.net
On 20-Dec-2009, mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 02:05:32 +0000 (UTC), fla...@verizon.net wrote:
>
> >
> >On 20-Dec-2009, mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Several seemed to have the impression that I had to go to show
> >> respect, but as I said, I'm going to the funeral regardless. (Who
> >> knows, the casket may be open there too.)
> >
> >If it's any help, I have never been to a Catholic funeral that did this.
>
> They're NOT Catholics.
Oh well - there was always the *possibility*....
> That had an open casket?
>
> FWIW, the one I went to when I was 40 was by Catholics. They had a
> wake I think at the funeral home, and the funeral the same place the
> following day. The 40-year old woman who died probably wouldnn't have
> called herself one anymore, but her parents were in charge.
Yes - but that wasn't the funeral.
BTW, I have never heard it called a "wake", but a "viewing".
> The most intereresting thing was... I had seen dozens of gentile
> funerals in movies, and in the movies, the mourners etc. always left
> when the casket was still above ground level. I thought that was
> some dramatic device, but when I went to this funeral, they actually
> did it that way. I found it amazing.
We had to leave my grandmother above ground -she
was buried in a military cemetary w/my grandfather,
and for some reason, they couldn't have us all at the
grave site. It was very disturbing.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 21-Dec-2009, Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote:
> fla...@verizon.net wrote:
> > On 20-Dec-2009, mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Several seemed to have the impression that I had to go to show
> >> respect, but as I said, I'm going to the funeral regardless. (Who
> >> knows, the casket may be open there too.)
> >
> > If it's any help, I have never been to a Catholic funeral that did this.
> >
>
> I have.
EW!
(Ok, I guess that was ride of me. But EW!!)
Susan
sheldonlg
> On 20-Dec-2009, mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 02:05:32 +0000 (UTC), fla...@verizon.net wrote:
>>
>>> On 20-Dec-2009, mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Several seemed to have the impression that I had to go to show
>>>> respect, but as I said, I'm going to the funeral regardless. (Who
>>>> knows, the casket may be open there too.)
>>> If it's any help, I have never been to a Catholic funeral that did this.
>> They're NOT Catholics.
>
> Oh well - there was always the *possibility*....
>
>
>> That had an open casket?
>>
>> FWIW, the one I went to when I was 40 was by Catholics. They had a
>> wake I think at the funeral home, and the funeral the same place the
>> following day. The 40-year old woman who died probably wouldnn't have
>> called herself one anymore, but her parents were in charge.
>
> Yes - but that wasn't the funeral.
>
> BTW, I have never heard it called a "wake", but a "viewing".
....and I had hardly ever heard it called a "viewing" -- only a "wake".
sheldonlg
Yes, you did ride the rude train with that one :-)
I wouldn't go so far as "ew", but just as well, I'd rather not view the
body.
Don Levey
>
I stayed on the other side of the room. I wasn't comfortable with it,
but I was told my presence there was of comfort and support to the family.
mm
<NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>What to do when a close non-Jewish friend has a viewing prior to a
>funeral? Sunday afternoon. There will probably be little if any
>religious content. The point of my question is not about that but
>about the open casket *viewing*.
So the viewing was scheduled for 6 hours, 2 to 8, and people had to
dig their cars out of the snow. So aside from my friend's family,
who were there I guess all 6 hours, there were no more than one or two
other people there during the 15 minutes I stayed. I told them it
wasn't my custom to look at the body, but she was there in the other
room. With the folding door opened it was one big room. I didn't get
a good look and that's fine.
The wake, maybe, was in a much bigger, again with an open casket from
10 to 11. I got there at 10:30. A lot of people came after I did and
yet I don't remember seeing anyone go up to the casket. They closed
the top around 11, when the funeral itself was scheduled to start.
My friend had said a few things about God in our phone conversation
when she told me she was dying, but she said nothing about "the Lord"
or about Jesus. And it wasn't just because I'm a Jew. When I visited
her in the hospice, she was talking to someone on the phone and she
said the very same things.
Yet the funeral "officater" said one or the other 20 times or more. I
doubt his words represented my friend's view.
There were about 100 people there.
Then we went to the cemetery, where they had a 5 minute service in the
"lobby" of the mausoleum. About 50 people went to that, and the walls
were stone and the ceiling high and I couldn't hear much of what
either of the two speakers said, but I know one said something about
consigning her to the earth. So maybe the mausoleum was only used
because there were 20 inches of snow on the ground. Maybe they said
and I coudlnt' hear it. I don't know, but not only didn't I see the
coffin lowered into the ground, all most of us saw was the casket
wheeled away. Maybe the family saw more. Curious sort that I am, I
may go the cemetery in a couple months. It's nearby too. And find out
where she is. It's not really a Xian cemetery, it seems, but a
corporation that sold off parts of its land to various other
cemeteries.
Afterwards they had repast and fellowship, and I might have heard some
good stories about my friend, but I didn't go.
mm
(Dermot Goldstein) wrote:
>On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 04:54:03 +0000 (UTC), mm
><NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 02:05:32 +0000 (UTC), fla...@verizon.net wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>On 20-Dec-2009, mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Several seemed to have the impression that I had to go to show
>>>> respect, but as I said, I'm going to the funeral regardless. (Who
>>>> knows, the casket may be open there too.)
>>>
>>>If it's any help, I have never been to a Catholic funeral that did this.
>>
>>They're NOT Catholics.
>>
>>That had an open casket?
>>
>>FWIW, the one I went to when I was 40 was by Catholics. They had a
>>wake I think at the funeral home, and the funeral the same place the
>>following day. The 40-year old woman who died probably wouldnn't have
>>called herself one anymore, but her parents were in charge.
>>
>>The most intereresting thing was... I had seen dozens of gentile
>>funerals in movies, and in the movies, the mourners etc. always left
>>when the casket was still above ground level. I thought that was
>>some dramatic device, but when I went to this funeral, they actually
>>did it that way. I found it amazing.
>
>Leaving while the coffin/casket is still above ground is an American
>thing.
That's really strange. I wonder what it could be about this country
that made people stop burying the body. That seems to me like the
essence of the funeral, with everything else added on later.
Maybe it was some custom of some immigrant group and it caught on with
other non-Jewish immigrant groups? I asked someone years ago and he
guessed it was too painful to watch the casket lowered and buried.
It seems like it would also be painful to leave in the middle. One guy
on the web was so suspicious about the non-lowering, he asked if only
the body was buried and the casket resold.
I googled, probably with the wrong search words, but didnt' find
anything about burying vs. not burying.
As I said in another post, in this case, I don't even know where the
grave is, maybe because there was so much snow, but I don't see how
that could stop anyone. Unless there was so much snow, 20 inches,
they couldn't find the intended plot. Is that possible? It's on
hills and a lot of the rows aren't straight.
>In the UK, the mourners wait for the casket to be lowered into
>the ground...and sometimes throw pieces of earth onto the casket when
>it's been lowered.
While the minimum Jewish requirement is to just cover the casket, or
the body and shrouds, I didn't want the cemetery attendants to do
anything and I wanted us to fill the whole grave, and I told the rabbi
that the night before, and he said he insisted on it. So that's what
we did.
I forgot that the custom is to put the shovel back into the dirt and
wait for someone else to pick it up, and instead I offered it to my
uncle. I shouldn't have done that. I might have even embarrassed
him, though that was hard to do. Anyhow, he refused it, I can't
imagine why. He was 83 but it wasn't because he was too weak to lift
it or a small amount of dirt with it.
>BTW in Eastern Europe it is not uncommon for the casket to be open up
>to the point just before the body is buried.
Interesting.
Dvora
Re: What to do when a non-Jewish friend has a viewing prior to a funeral
Group: soc.culture.jewish.moderated Date: Wed, Dec 23, 2009, 6:10am
(EST+5) From: NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com (mm)
Goldstein) wrote:
On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 04:54:03 +0000 (UTC), mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 02:05:32 +0000 (UTC), fla...@verizon.net wrote:
On 20-Dec-2009, mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
Several seemed to have the impression that I had to go to show respect,
but as I said, I'm going to the funeral regardless. (Who knows, the
casket may be open there too.)
If it's any help, I have never been to a Catholic funeral that did this.
They're NOT Catholics.
That had an open casket?
FWIW, the one I went to when I was 40 was by Catholics. They had a wake
I think at the funeral home, and the funeral the same place the
following day. The 40-year old woman who died probably wouldnn't have
called herself one anymore, but her parents were in charge.
The most intereresting thing was... I had seen dozens of gentile
funerals in movies, and in the movies, the mourners etc. always left
when the casket was still above ground level. I thought that was
some dramatic device, but when I went to this funeral, they actually did
it that way. I found it amazing.
Leaving while the coffin/casket is still above ground is an American
thing.
That's really strange. I wonder what it could be about this country that
made people stop burying the body. That seems to me like the essence
of the funeral, with everything else added on later.
Maybe it was some custom of some immigrant group and it caught on with
other non-Jewish immigrant groups? I asked someone years ago and he
guessed it was too painful to watch the casket lowered and buried.
It seems like it would also be painful to leave in the middle. One guy
on the web was so suspicious about the non-lowering, he asked if only
the body was buried and the casket resold.
I googled, probably with the wrong search words, but didnt' find
anything about burying vs. not burying.
As I said in another post, in this case, I don't even know where the
grave is, maybe because there was so much snow, but I don't see how that
could stop anyone. Unless there was so much snow, 20 inches, they
couldn't find the intended plot. Is that possible? It's on hills and a
lot of the rows aren't straight.
In the UK, the mourners wait for the casket to be lowered into the
ground...and sometimes throw pieces of earth onto the casket when it's
been lowered.
body and shrouds, I didn't want the cemetery attendants to do anything
and I wanted us to fill the whole grave, and I told the rabbi that the
night before, and he said he insisted on it. So that's what we did.
I TOO BELIEVE THAT PEOPLE SHOULD BE BURIED BY THOSE WHO LOVE THEM -- NOT
BY STRANGERS -- HAVE ALWAYS INSISTED ON THIS --
-
wait for someone else to pick it up, and instead I offered it to my
uncle. I shouldn't have done that. I might have even embarrassed him,
though that was hard to do. Anyhow, he refused it, I can't imagine why.
He was 83 but it wasn't because he was too weak to lift it or a small
amount of dirt with it.
BTW in Eastern Europe it is not uncommon for the casket to be open up to
the point just before the body is buried.
Interesting.
--
Meir
"The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
Be Safe and Well --- Dvora
Susan S
<NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com>:
[snip]
>>Leaving while the coffin/casket is still above ground is an American
>>thing.
>
I've been to non-Jewish funerals where both practices are followed.
>That's really strange. I wonder what it could be about this country
>that made people stop burying the body. That seems to me like the
>essence of the funeral, with everything else added on later.
>
>
>While the minimum Jewish requirement is to just cover the casket, or
>the body and shrouds, I didn't want the cemetery attendants to do
>anything and I wanted us to fill the whole grave, and I told the rabbi
>that the night before, and he said he insisted on it. So that's what
>we did.
>
When my father died, we filled in most of the grave and the
"professionals" had to stand around waiting for us to finish. My memory
is that we did not even discuss it, but that the younger men took turns
picking up the shovel until it was done. It just seemed right. Everyone
liked my dad.
[snip]
Susan Silberstein
Harry Weiss
> What to do when a close non-Jewish friend has a viewing prior to a
> funeral? Sunday afternoon. There will probably be little if any
> religious content. The point of my question is not about that but
> about the open casket *viewing*.
> Do you / would you go at all?
> Would you go, say hello to the family (son and daughter, 6-year old
> grandchild) and stay at the other end of the room?
I went to such a funeral/viewing and went to the family members but it was
possible to skip going past the casket without anyone noticing. They
appreciated that we were there, and did not notice that we did not walk
past the casket and walked out when the rent a galach spoke.
> I plan to go to the funeral regardless, but don't most people go to
> both? I don't want to disrespect her.
> I've been to two open-casket funeral before. One I was 18 and I
> looked, one I was ~40 and made a point to do no more than glance at as
> I walked by on my way to sitting next to someone I knew.
> Do you think I'm being traditional, squeamish, or what in my
> reluctance?
> My friend is the one who died. I barely know her son, don't know her
> daughter. She's the first person I was in regular contact with about
> my age who has died. (One kid from grammar school was killed in Viet
> Nam, one committed suicide, and one fraternity brother, our of 20, who
> I was least close to, lived in Hawaii and died in Japan maybe 10 years
> after college. I didnt' find out about any of these until years or
> months later. Everyone else has been a generation older.)
> --
> Meir
> "The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
Joe Bruno
> What to do when a close non-Jewish friend has a viewing prior to a
> funeral? Sunday afternoon. There will probably be little if any
> religious content. The point of my question is not about that but
> about the open casket *viewing*.
>
> Do you / would you go at all?
>
> Would you go, say hello to the family (son and daughter, 6-year old
> grandchild) and stay at the other end of the room?
>
> both? I don't want to disrespect her.
>
> I've been to two open-casket funeral before. One I was 18 and I
> looked, one I was ~40 and made a point to do no more than glance at as
> I walked by on my way to sitting next to someone I knew.
>
> Do you think I'm being traditional, squeamish, or what in my
> reluctance?
>
> My friend is the one who died. I barely know her son, don't know her
> daughter. She's the first person I was in regular contact with about
> my age who has died. (One kid from grammar school was killed in Viet
> Nam, one committed suicide, and one fraternity brother, our of 20, who
> I was least close to, lived in Hawaii and died in Japan maybe 10 years
> after college. I didnt' find out about any of these until years or
> months later. Everyone else has been a generation older.)
>
> --
>
> Meir
>
> "The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
You ask the posters here for lots of advice on personal matters.
I'd recommend that you make those decisions for yourself by following
your conscience.
Just because your actions agree with the views of others does not mean
they are morally correct.
Dvora
Re: What to do when a non-Jewish friend has a viewing prior to a funeral
(EST+5) From: hjw...@panix.com (Harry Weiss)
I AM SO SORRY FOR THE LOSS OF YOUR FREIND -- MAY YOU REMEMBER WITH JOY
THE DEPTH OF YOUR FRIENDSHIP --
"The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
Be Safe and Well --- Dvora
Harry Weiss
> Susan Silberstein
That is how it is done here, except that once the casket is fully covered
with dirt, the employees put a liner on it. In non O they use a plastic
liner. In the O concrete is used which requires a backhoe to lift up
since it weighs over a ton. Then in O the mourners continue filling the
grave and in non O, it is filled after people leave (they use a back hoe)
Harry Weiss
I go only in funeral homes/cemetary. Hallaach prohibits going to a
church.
> Susan Silberstein
mm
wrote:
Definitely. I'm pretty well acquainted with the rules on standard
situations, that come up all the time. And there is much written
material regarding the rules for kashrus, Shabbes, business ethics,
guarding one's speech, loving one's neighbor.
>I'd recommend that you make those decisions for yourself by following
>your conscience.
>Just because your actions agree with the views of others does not mean
>they are morally correct.
When I was a small child, I depended on my parents for moral advice.
After I entered school there were also to a lesser extent my school
teachers and tv shows (remember that tv shows were wholesome then**).
My parents are gone now and I'm out of school, and most of tv runs
from being mediocre to being a cesspool. But long before my mother
died, I knew that I needed new teachers to learn Jewish morality,
which is often*** the same as gentile but not always. More
importantly, the Judaism I learned as a child didn't address the more
complicated or unusual situations I sometimes face now. I understand
most simple situations pretty well, but there are always situations on
the borderline between "do it" and "don't do it".
I think people are often misled by their "conscience". The evil
inclination usually doesn't lead someone to do something bad by
convincing him he'll enjoy doing something bad. More often, it
convinces him that what he is thinking of doing is good, even though
it's not; that what Jewish and other standards would say is wrong, is
really right. The evil inclination doesn't say to one, "I'm the evil
inclination and I'll show you how to have fun." The evil inclination
says "I'm the good inclination and I'll show you how to do the right
thing and probably still have fun."
For example, the guy who tried to bomb the airplane the other day
probably thought he was doing a good thing. Sure he was misled by
Muslim or radical Muslim advisors, but I don't seek advice from people
like that. (and no Jew has ever suggested I bomb an airplane.)
**Not counting Hitchcock, but almost all the rest are wholesome. Even
more than I remembered, now that I've been watching RTV, Retro TV,
shows from the 50's - 70's, which is free here on channel 7.3.
***The miss-manners newsgroup has very little traffic now and very few
posters, but it was a real eye-opener to see how callous was the
advice some people gave, and they even did so in the name of Miss
Manners. Several of them seemed to feel it didnt' matter if one hurt
another, either just feelings or worse, as long as one followed
etiquette. They didn't notice what I had, that Miss Manners is
concerned with the final result, that people don't get hurt, and imo
she molds the etiquette around that.