Niemoller's (in)famous quote
Danny Keren
# I've read that towards the end of the war, Hitler began sending Catholics
# to the camps.
I think that Hitler's war against Christianity started earlier,
although I admit to not being an expert on the subject. For instance,
all crosses had to be taken down in all public places (there is a
story by Boell which mentions this, BTW). The following excerpt
from Goebells' diary (March 26 1942) is rather explicit:
"It's a dirty, low thing to do for the Catholic Church to continue
its subversive activity in every way possible and now even to
extend its propaganda to Protestant children evacuated from the
regions threatened by air raids. Next to the Jews these politico-
divines are about the most loathsome riffraff that we are still
sheltering in the Reich. The time will come after the war for an
over-all solution of this problem".
I've also read often that the Nazis executed many priests in Poland,
but I have no idea about the magnitude of this "operation".
It should be noted that although, in general, the Catholic Church
was no friend to the Jews, it never advocated Nazi-style genocide.
Its aim was to convert (or expel) the Jews.
-Danny Keren.
Mike Perry
Keren) wrote:
> ste...@netcom.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
>
> # I've read that towards the end of the war, Hitler began sending Catholics
> # to the camps.
>
> I think that Hitler's war against Christianity started earlier,
> although I admit to not being an expert on the subject. For instance,
> all crosses had to be taken down in all public places.
During the war, pastors and priests who gave the regime a hard time would
often drafted and sent to the infamous eastern front. The only group Hitler
protected from the draft were talented artists, he valued their "genes."
The closest thing the Nazi party had to a philosopher, Rosenberg, was
brutally critical of Christianity. In public Hitler distanced himself from
Rosenberg's remarks but in private conversations he made it clear that
after the war was won the party would turn on both major denominations,
making Germany as "Chritian-free" as it was "Jew-free."
The far left tends to think religion can be totally eliminated. Hitler,
being far right, saw it as a useful tool to manipulate people. He seemed to
feel that the ideal religion for Germany was a restored Germanic paganism
(warlike and close to the soil) for the masses and a sort of enlightened
nature religion for the more educated. Both would celebrate the winter
soltice instead of Christmas.
In Bavaria, many Catholic farming communities saw open clashes between the
local priest and the Nazi-following school teacher. One of the points of
conflict was the place of the cruxifix in schools. In some communities mass
protests forced the Nazis to take down Hitler's photo and put the cruxifix
back up. Similar, though probably not as intense, conflicts happened in
Protestant communities over attempts to replace Martin Luther's picture
with Hitler's. When a community was united enough in opposition, the Nazis
often backed down.
All and all, it's an interesting topic worthy of further exploration.
--Mike Perry, Seattle
Bradley G. Kaiser
In article <2qtfq1$7...@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> Imi Bokor (i...@neumann.une.edu.au)
writes:
>This conjecture does not accord well with numerous facts, such as the
>Konkordat, an agreement between Nazi Germany and the Roman Catholic Church
>in (I believe) 1934, which is still in force.
As has previously been pointed out, the point of the concordat was to
protect Catholic schools, and (from Hitler's POV) to secure the
dismantling of the Zentrum Partei. I have no idea whether it is
still in force, but it is a dead letter anyway.
>Hitler never left the Catholic Church and was not ex-communicated, not even
>posthumously.
A few points need to be made:
1) There is no formal procedure for leaving the Catholic Church;
professing another religion suffices. Hitler, asked about his
religious beliefs (specifically whether he was a Christian),
denied that he was a Christian, and described himself as
"a pure heathen". (I believe that's in the _Tischgespraeche_).
2) Excommunication is a penalty prescribed by canon law as
a public recognition that an individual has separated himself
from the Church by certain grievous offenses. Murder isn't
among them, but that doesn't mean that an (unrepentant)
murderer has not separated himself from the Church, only
that the Church has not publicly noted the separation.
*Anyone* guilty of unrepented mortal sin has automatically
separated themselves from the Church, and cannot worthily
receive the Sacraments. I think that there is abundant
historical evidence that Hitler attained that status long
before 1933, and never looked back.
3) Posthumous excommunication is very rare. I can think of only
one example in 2000 years, and that one is disputed.
4) Do you have *any* evidence that Hitler practiced the Catholic
faith in any way (attendance at weddings and funerals doesn't
count) after 1920? I know of none. All the evidence I have
seen indicates that he discarded his Catholicism upon reaching
adolescence, like yesterday's dishwater. He was an apostate
all of his adult life.
>The Roman Catholic Church did nothing to ensure the safety of nuns and
>priests who were converted Jews, for example the Stein sisters. But it did
>harbour and protect such figures as Touvier for over forty years after the
>war.
According to the book written by Pinchas Lapide, the former Israeli ambassador
to Italy (I believe the name of the book is _The Jews under Three Popes_;
it's now out of print.), the Catholic Church was responsible for saving
ca. 860,000 Jews from the Holocaust, more than any other Gentile organization
(save for the Allied governments, by their prosecution of the war). Lay
Catholics (Francisco Franco, Oskar Schindler, and many others) added a
few thousand more.
>That is not to say there were no clergymen who did not resist. Quite the
>contrary. But this was usually an act of defiance of the Church (Catholic
>and/or Protestant.)
Bishop Von Galen's acts were not in defiance of the Church. Pope Pius XI
was not in defiance of the Church when he issued _Mit Brennender Sorge_,
condemning Nazism. Maximilian Kolbe was not acting in defiance of the
Church when he condemned the Nazis' crimes in Poland, and went to his
death at Auschwitz because of it.
Regards,
Brad Kaiser
(br...@eurpd.csg.mot.com)
Cheryl Kaye Bryant
Danny Keren <d...@cs.brown.edu> wrote:
>ste...@netcom.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
>
>># I've read that towards the end of the war, Hitler began sending Catholics
>># to the camps.
>
> its subversive activity in every way possible and now even to
> extend its propaganda to Protestant children evacuated from the
> regions threatened by air raids. Next to the Jews these politico-
> divines are about the most loathsome riffraff that we are still
> sheltering in the Reich. The time will come after the war for an
> over-all solution of this problem".
>
Well if this will help, most of the first prisoners in the Concentration
Camp at Dachau were catholics.
If you want specifics, e-mail me and I will get back to you in about a week
and a half...I am going on holiday.
C.K. Bryant
--
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"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit." / C.K. Bryant
The 62nd Rule of Acquisition / W.I.U. English
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Imi Bokor
: # I've read that towards the end of the war, Hitler began sending Catholics
: # to the camps.
It is certainly true that many Catholics and Protestants died in the camps.
It is quite possible that their total number is quite significant, even
when compared with the number of Jews. What IS essentially different is
the reason for their deportation. Christians were NOT rounded up in the
street for being members of a Christian community. They were NOT
sent to gas chambers because one grandparent had been a member of a
Christian community. They were there for POLITICAL affiliations or
activities. Similarly the fisrt few tens of thousands of Jews to be
killed were not killed for being Jewish but for their membership of
Left-Wing groups and associations.
: I've also read often that the Nazis executed many priests in Poland,
: but I have no idea about the magnitude of this "operation".
: It should be noted that although, in general, the Catholic Church
: was no friend to the Jews, it never advocated Nazi-style genocide.
: Its aim was to convert (or expel) the Jews.
No-one in the recorded history we have has EVER compared with the Nazis
in extermination. Others have been more successful in genocide, but
it had never before been done in such an efficiently managed industrial
manner. It had never before been done in a way which involved the active
participation of the entire society, with planning, administration and
execution of the plan being part and parcel of "every-day life". Never
before had it happened in full view of the entire society. That is indeed
unique.
But if you look at the history of the Inquisition, especially in Spain, you
will find that even convertees were frequently and systematically burnt
at the stake because their sincerity was doubted. The Catholic Church
has indeed presided over genocide, specifically in South America. If you
read what the Church was proclaiming about Jews, Moslems and pagans, then
your opinion may be less favourable.
The official Christian Churches had a decidedly anti-Jewish tendency. They
taught that contemporary Jews were responsible for the death of Christ
and taught that Jews had no place in Christian societies. The original ghettoes
come from a time when the Church had absolute moral authority and all
education was exclusively in its hands. The periodic slaughter of Jews was
often instigated and always approved by the Chrurches.
The teachings of the various Churches supplied the basis for Anti-Jewish
sentiment over many centuries. I would go as far as to say that without
the official teachings of the official chuches, in particular the Roman
Catholic Church, there would have been little if any reservoir of
resentment and anti-Jewish feeling for the Nazis to tap.
d.A.
Jamie Andrews
>During the war, pastors and priests who gave the regime a hard time would
>often drafted and sent to the infamous eastern front. The only group Hitler
>protected from the draft were talented artists, he valued their "genes."
Well, at least the artists that he didn't consider
"degenerate", like Ernst and Kokoschka. There was a famous
exhibition called "Degenerate 'Art'" (can't remember the German
words) which displayed expressionist and abstract art in
(unfavourable) comparison with the works of children and mental
patients. Many of these unconventional artists left Germany
early on in Hitler's reign.
--Jamie.
ja...@cs.sfu.ca
"Nkosi Sikelele iAfrika"