Do Japanese Speak Japanese?
gary
shuji matsuda expresses his amazement at Scott's knowledge
of English:
> (Secretly I am glad you know what lithium means. It is not a common
> noun in Japanese. Is it a comon word in English?)
Masayuki YOSHIDA routinely questions native English speakers:
> Can you understand my English?
Gentlemen, this may come as a shock to both of you, but we native
English speakers know English. We don't have to strain to understand
it. And words like "lithium", we just learn these words naturally in
the course of reading books and magazines, and watching TV. Comes quite
easily to us.
How about the Japanese? Do Japanese know Japanese? This is a sincere
question, because I've encountered many instances when Japanese have
seemed ignorant of Japanese words.
For example, the other day I was talking to a group of Japanese adults
about a nearby empty lot. I wanted to use the word "barbed wire", but
of course I didn't know this word in Japanese. So I tried describing it
like, "toge no tsuita harigane", and I even made a little drawing of a
barbed wire fence. Everyone then knew what I was talking about. But
not one person could tell me the Japanese word for that thing; they just
looked around to each other and repeated, "are, nan to yuu no?"
Finally, someone else came by, overheard our discussion, and informed
everyone that it is called "yuushitessen". She seemed quite pleased
with herself, knowing this word.
One other time, the hinge on a door was loose, so I tightened it back up
with a screwdriver. Afterwards, I told someone that I had fixed the
door. I didn't know what a hinge is called in Japanese, so I pointed to
it and asked. Again, I was met with silence. After asking around to
some more people, I discovered not one Japanese person knew what it is
called. Sometime later when I was at the hardware store, I was told
they are called "choutsugai". The ones in your eyeglasses are called
"chouban". The optometrist who told me this wasn't sure, and had to
first look the word up in some kind of a trade manual.
Here are some other items whose Japanese names I've had trouble
uncovering when I've asked Japanese people:
pylon
plunger
rivet
buckle (as on a belt)
clipboard
rake (the garden tool)
tongs
spatula
filament (in a light bulb)
snap (the fastener)
appendix (the vestigial organ) [or even "vestigial", for that matter]
washer (the faucet kind)
socket wrench
practically any auto part: muffler, radiator, axle, spark plug, et al.
I've met some Japanese who don't even know the words for "hood" and
"trunk"; they say "mae" ("front") and "ushiro" ("back").
By now, Scott and Akira are probably all set to jump on my butt and say
I'm overgeneralizing again. But I'm not. I've not yet concluded that
many Japanese are unfamiliar with the names of everyday objects. I'm
putting the question to all of you: Is this ignorance typical of
Japanese all over Japan, or only my small circle down here in Kyushu?
Won't you ask around for me? Just point to the rivet in your jeans, the
hinge in your glasses, the buckle on your belt, the exhaust pipe on your
car, and ask some Japanese friends, "kore, nihongo de nan to yuu no?"
Share your results.
--gary
shuji matsuda
Posted and emailed.
In article <37591BD9...@pop21.odn.ne.jp>, gary
<gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
: shuji matsuda expresses his amazement at Scott's knowledge
--
shuji matsuda smat...@med.keio.ac.jp
Kazuhiro Ishii
gary wrote in message <37591BD9...@pop21.odn.ne.jp>...
>
>Is this ignorance typical of
>Japanese all over Japan, or only my small circle down here in Kyushu?
「ignorance」というか、聞けばなんでも答えてもらって当然といった感じの
そのあつかましい態度が原因でしょう。
「またはじまったよ」
「どうする? 教えてやろうか?」
みたいなやつですね。
--
石井一弘
Jason Cormier
shuji matsuda <smat...@med.keio.ac.jp> wrote in message
news:smatsuda-050...@p208-1.rcn.med.keio.ac.jp...
> DO NOT crosspost to sci.lang.japan with your crap.
As opposed to your crap that we are forced to experience here?
Michael Cash
matsuda) wrote:
Seems like a perfectly valid place for his crap....why would that
topic not belong there? Japanese vocabulary is not considered
"on-topic" in sci.lang.japan? Or you just don't like a post which
casts Japan in a negative light among the little collection of
foreigners there who tend to be avid Japanophiles?
Just asking.......
>DO NOT crosspost to sci.lang.japan with your crap.
>
>:putting the question to all of you: Is this ignorance typical of
>:Japanese all over Japan, or only my small circle down here in Kyushu?
Michael Cash
<nol...@writeme.com> wrote:
>
>gary wrote in message <37591BD9...@pop21.odn.ne.jp>...
>>
>>Is this ignorance typical of
>>Japanese all over Japan, or only my small circle down here in Kyushu?
>
>
>
>「ignorance」というか、聞けばなんでも答えてもらって当然といった感じの
>そのあつかましい態度が原因でしょう。
I hope you don't do like many native speakers of English do. That is:
to confuse the meanings of "ignorant" and "stupid"
There is no shame in being ignorant. Being ignorant only means you
don't know something.
Being stupid means you don't know...and can't learn.
Michael Cash
wrote:
Or I like to say.....
Stupid is forever
Ignorance can be fixed
Professor Ernest T. Bass
Mount Pilot Correspondence School
Philosophy Department
The Wrights
>
> shuji matsuda expresses his amazement at Scott's knowledge
> of English:
> > (Secretly I am glad you know what lithium means. It is not a common
> > noun in Japanese. Is it a comon word in English?)
>
> Masayuki YOSHIDA routinely questions native English speakers:
> > Can you understand my English?
>
> Gentlemen, this may come as a shock to both of you, but we native
> English speakers know English. We don't have to strain to understand
> it. And words like "lithium", we just learn these words naturally in
> the course of reading books and magazines, and watching TV.
Are you sure you didn't learn this word from the label of your medicine?
Sean Holland
>
> gary wrote:
> > Gentlemen, this may come as a shock to both of you, but we native
> > English speakers know English. We don't have to strain to understand
> > it. And words like "lithium", we just learn these words naturally in
> > the course of reading books and magazines, and watching TV.
>
> Are you sure you didn't learn this word from the label of your medicine?
That deserves TWO zabuton!
J i r o D o k e h
many Japanese may be ignorant about certain words like the ones
you mentions, which are specific nouns of parts of things.
As I was learning English, I noticed English has far more vocabulary
than Japanese. There seems to be a word for almost everything.
Sometimes, I can't find an equivalent word in Japanese. They just
turn out to be English or foreign words said in a Japanese way,
such as TEREBI, RAJIO, CONPYU-TA-, etc. I've heard of some technical
Japanese words for these, but a typical Japanese would not know
that.
As for words like "buckle", "rivet", "hood", "trunk", I think most Japanese
might just use "BAKKURU", "RIBETTO", "HU-DO", "TORANKU" for them.
As you know, Japanese uses A LOT of foreign words as it is.
From the fact that Enlish is more vocabulary oriented, you may
learn words like "lithium" naturally, but Japanese don't learn
that naturally.
Another thing which made me believe English is more vocabulary
oriented is from the instructions or manuals. For example,
an English setup manual may have a lot of words. It may say
"First, put part A on top of part B. Screw the two pieces
together with bolt and nut C..." In a Japanese manual, all
these will probably be done using a figure or a setup diagram.
Same thing for maps. When some of my American friends give
directions, they write the directions: "Go north for 2 miles
on 3rd street. Take a left on the next light. Go up 4 blocks..."
Japanese usually draws a map and uses as few words as possible.
Interesting cultural different, I think.
Do you understand what I'm saying. (just kidding :) ).
jiro
In soc.culture.japan gary <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
: Gentlemen, this may come as a shock to both of you, but we native
: English speakers know English. We don't have to strain to understand
: it. And words like "lithium", we just learn these words naturally in
: the course of reading books and magazines, and watching TV. Comes quite
: easily to us.
: putting the question to all of you: Is this ignorance typical of
: Japanese all over Japan, or only my small circle down here in Kyushu?
: Won't you ask around for me? Just point to the rivet in your jeans, the
: hinge in your glasses, the buckle on your belt, the exhaust pipe on your
: car, and ask some Japanese friends, "kore, nihongo de nan to yuu no?"
: Share your results.
: --gary
--
Jiro Dokeh
Georgia Institute of Technology, Mechanical Engineering
gt2...@prism.gatech.edu
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gt2527a/
Kenji Adzuma
<gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
> Gentlemen, this may come as a shock to both of you, but we native
> English speakers know English.
OK, fair enough, but try this. What do call "den den mushi" in English?
--
Kenji Adzuma
neko...@my-deja.com
>Or you just don't like a post which casts Japan in a negative light
>among the little collection of foreigners there who tend to be avid
>Japanophiles?
As far as I know, they don't like a post which casts Japan in a
negative light. But strange thing is that they seem to like a post
which casts "gaijin" in a negative light.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Prince Richard Kaminski
Kenji Adzuma <adz...@rockvax.rockefeller.edu> wrote in message
news:adzuma-0506...@3tsh3-mac.rockefeller.edu...
Snail?
Jani Patokallio
> As I was learning English, I noticed English has far more vocabulary
> than Japanese. There seems to be a word for almost everything.
> Sometimes, I can't find an equivalent word in Japanese. They just
> turn out to be English or foreign words said in a Japanese way,
> such as TEREBI, RAJIO, CONPYU-TA-, etc. I've heard of some technical
> Japanese words for these, but a typical Japanese would not know
> that.
> As for words like "buckle", "rivet", "hood", "trunk", I think most Japanese
> might just use "BAKKURU", "RIBETTO", "HU-DO", "TORANKU" for them.
> As you know, Japanese uses A LOT of foreign words as it is.
I think that there are a number of separate issues here.
Japanese contains three distinct types of vocabulary: the original
Japanese yamatokotoba, which form whole words and cannot be decomposed into
parts; Chinese compound words, whose meaning can (in theory) be derived
from their kanji; and gairaigo imported wholesale from other languages,
these days usually English.
Now, all the words Gary noted in his posting are relatively new concepts,
for which there cannot have been any yamatokotoba. Belt buckles, car trunks,
barbed wire, door hinges, etc simply did not exist in Japan even 1000 years
ago. When these Western items entered Japan some 100 years ago, new
words for them had to be invented somehow. An educated engineer might
conjure up a fancy Chinese compound like "yuushitessen" for barbed wire,
most people who deal with it on a daily basis would probably know and use
the import "baabu waia", but for others it would remain "toge no tsuita
harigane" unless an actual need developed to develop a shorter way of
referring to it.
Viewed from this point, Japanese is not particularly odd. At one extreme,
China has kept its languages very "pure" by deriving new meaning-based
compounds for almost all new concept. At the other extreme, English
prefers to create its new words by either synthesizing them from
Greek and Latin (eg. television, vocabulary, synthesis) or reassigning
additional meanings to existing words (eg. computer, network, protocol).
Also, the huge amount of words in English is largely due to the fact that
in addition to its Old English base (the equivalent of yamatokotoba)
English has imported amazing amounts of vocabulary mainly from various
Germanic and Romance languages, the end result being that for a given
concept there are often a number of more or less synonymous words which just
happen to be imported from different languages.
Cheers,
-j.
Michael Cash
wrote:
>gary <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote in message
>news:37591BD9...@pop21.odn.ne.jp...
>>
>> shuji matsuda expresses his amazement at Scott's knowledge
>> of English:
>> > (Secretly I am glad you know what lithium means. It is not a common
>> > noun in Japanese. Is it a comon word in English?)
>snip.....
>
>I suppose it all depends on whether or not your Japanese friends have ever
>had the need to use such words in their native tongue. For example if your
>were a thin guy and never suffered from a post-enkai large stomach condition
>then you'd probably never have to use the word 'buckle'. Being large myself
>and forever in need of loosening my belt after a particularly extreme enkai,
>then of course the word buckle is of interest to me. As are retailers of
>long belts.
>
>You could debate until the cows come home whether or not buckle should be
>part of your personal lexicon. I suspect that the argument is moot. I
>personally believe 'rotary wankel engine should be part of everyone's
>vocabulary - of course I especially believe this to be so after a
>particularly extreme enkai.....
>
>jonathan
In Japan I might buy that argument when it comes to "barbed
wire"....but to include such articles as belt buckles???? Somehow I
think I find that more offensive than Gary pointing out that some
people don't know those words.
>
>
Michael Cash
wrote:
>J i r o D o k e h wrote:
>> As I was learning English, I noticed English has far more vocabulary
>> than Japanese. There seems to be a word for almost everything.
>> Sometimes, I can't find an equivalent word in Japanese. They just
>> turn out to be English or foreign words said in a Japanese way,
>> such as TEREBI, RAJIO, CONPYU-TA-, etc. I've heard of some technical
>> Japanese words for these, but a typical Japanese would not know
>> that.
>> As for words like "buckle", "rivet", "hood", "trunk", I think most Japanese
>> might just use "BAKKURU", "RIBETTO", "HU-DO", "TORANKU" for them.
>> As you know, Japanese uses A LOT of foreign words as it is.
>
I used to challenge my Japanese friends to play a variant on
"Pictionary" or "Charades" that I came up.
In my game, you must describe an item using *NO* on-yomi or gairaigo.
The other's try to guess the word.
When challenged to describe "jidouhanbaiki" or "densha" for
example.....nobody that I asked could do it.
Kenji Adzuma
Kaminski" <dobun...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Right. But how did you know? The reason I asked that question was that I
used to think "den den mushi" must be some kind of insect because "mushi"
means insect. Oh well, never mind.
--
Kenji Adzuma
Kenji Adzuma
> One other time, the hinge on a door was loose, so I tightened it back up
> with a screwdriver. Afterwards, I told someone that I had fixed the
> door. I didn't know what a hinge is called in Japanese, so I pointed to
> it and asked. Again, I was met with silence. After asking around to
> some more people, I discovered not one Japanese person knew what it is
> called. Sometime later when I was at the hardware store, I was told
> they are called "choutsugai".
Well, a door hinge is usually called "kaname."
> Here are some other items whose Japanese names I've had trouble
> uncovering when I've asked Japanese people:
>
> pylon
"(ookina) mon" isn't it?
> plunger
This one is somehow called "pisuton" (piston) in Japanese.
> rivet
"ribetto" or "tome kanagu"
> buckle (as on a belt)
no idea.
> clipboard
"keiji ban" (display board). Not exact, but close enough.
> rake (the garden tool)
Well, people use a "take bouki" (broom made of bundled bamboo twigs) to
gather fallen leaves; they don't use a rake. If they saw a rake, I
imagine they would call it like "(take de dekita) kumade."
> tongs
"(monotori) basami" (scissors for picking up things)
> spatula
"(yaku you) saji" (spoon to measure drug)
> filament (in a light bulb)
"firamento"
> snap (the fastener)
"tomegane"
> appendix (the vestigial organ) [or even "vestigial", for that matter]
no idea
> washer (the faucet kind)
"wasshaa"
> socket wrench
"soketto renchi" I guess
> practically any auto part: muffler, radiator, axle, spark plug, et al.
> I've met some Japanese who don't even know the words for "hood" and
> "trunk"; they say "mae" ("front") and "ushiro" ("back").
I think the "hood" is called "bon netto" in Japanese. I don't know where
"bon netto" originated from, though.
--
Kenji Adzuma
Prince Richard Kaminski
Kenji Adzuma <adz...@rockvax.rockefeller.edu> wrote in message
news:adzuma-0506...@3tsh3-mac.rockefeller.edu...
> In article <jKf63.723$pl3....@newreader.ukcore.bt.net>, "Prince Richard
> Kaminski" <dobun...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Kenji Adzuma <adz...@rockvax.rockefeller.edu> wrote in message
> > news:adzuma-0506...@3tsh3-mac.rockefeller.edu...
> > > > English speakers know English.
> > >
> > > OK, fair enough, but try this. What do call "den den mushi" in
English?
> >
> > Snail?
>
> Right. But how did you know?
From that song about den den mushi, katatsumuri, etc. Katatsumuri being
another word for the same thing.
The reason I asked that question was that I
> used to think "den den mushi" must be some kind of insect because "mushi"
> means insect. Oh well, never mind.
I know what you mean. There are words like that in English too, although I
can't think of any at the moment. I'm thinking of things like the name of a
flower which sounds like an animal, and vice versa perhaps.
Prince Richard Kaminski
Kenji Adzuma <adz...@rockvax.rockefeller.edu> wrote in message news:adzuma-
> I think the "hood" is called "bon netto" in Japanese. I don't know where
> "bon netto" originated from, though.
From the British English word "bonnet", which means the lid that covers the
engine compartment of your car. A hood over here is something you wear over
your head, like a monk might.
Fabian
>I think the "hood" is called "bon netto" in Japanese. I don't know where
>"bon netto" originated from, though.
Well, when I find myself having to translate American into English, "hood"
becomes "bonnet".
Which brings us to an interesting question.
Of the loan words that are from the English language, there are some which
are recognisably from one specific English-speaking country. But which
country has Japanese borrowed more words from?
---
Fabian
Rule One: Question the unquestionable,
ask the unaskable, eff the ineffable,
think the unthinkable, and screw the inscrutable.
BDunn
> uncovering when I've asked Japanese people:
>
> plunger
It seems to me like these two things, anyway, would be pretty new to the
Japanese public.
I'm not trying to troll. I mean, how many people still live with sliding
doors in their houses?
My wife didn't know the word for 'hinge,' but she just explained to me what
it was. And
(I'm not sure on this one), but with Japanese style toilets, were plungers
ever needed? How
long have western style toilets been commonplace in Japan? I asked my wife
this one, too
(it was the last one I asked) and she started to say something like "pon--"
but didn't finish
for fear of looking stupid. Try asking someone what a rabu hoteru is in
English. You may
get "Love Hotel," but that doesn't really have a defined meaning in English.
If they don't know
a word, it's probably because they don't use the word or they don't have a
need for the word.
> appendix (the vestigial organ) [or even "vestigial", for that matter]
But has no one had their appendix out in Japan? I think this one is
'mouchou' ('mouchou o toru').
And I don't even know what vestigial is in English, let alone another
language.
And I was just curious, so I asked my Japanese wife if she knew 'tonsils.'
She said 'nodochinko'
right off the bat, and after I laughed I coaxed the real word, 'hentou,' out
of her. I guess it's like
people using 'charinko' instead of 'jitensha.' Or maybe it's a generation
thing, since we're in our 20's.
I think this is going in another direction, away from "Japanese people don't
know these words..."
to a difference in language use and why they would use the words. For
example, one could say,
"chin shitoite" for "warm this up," since the denshi range goes "chin" when
it's finished (but saying,
"ding this, will ya'" in English would be a bit strange). And "Poi Sute
Kinshi" (where "poi" is the sound
of throwing trash) on the side of the road (have you ever seen a sign in
English that said, "No Plooping"?).
I think this is a good topic for the usage of Japanese and "why don't they
know/use these kinds of words?"
Japanese use a lot of onomotopiea that has no direct translation, except for
a lengthy explanation of the
concept. That doesn't mean that people who speak English are long winded or
can't express their ideas well.
Brian Dunn
bd...@netmagic.net
BDunn
>
> >>"(yaku you) saji" (spoon to measure drug)
>
Didn't anybody bother to look it up in a dictionary? It's 'hera,' and even
my wife uses that word.
Brian Dunn
>
So is 'chuusui' or 'mouchou' used? Or are they both used? I showed the
kanji for chuusui to a Japanese friend and he didn't recognize it until I
told him what it was. My dictionary gives:
chuusui:
the vermiform appendix
chuusuien - appendicitis
chuusuiensetsujo - appendectomy
mouchou:
the cecum, the blind gut, the (vermiform) appendix
mouchou o toru - have one's appendix removed (out)
mouchouen - appendicitis; cecitis
mouchouen no shujutsu - an operation for appendicitis;
an appendectomy.
Brian Dunn
bd...@netmagic.net
mr sumo
shuji matsuda
:>「ignorance」というか、聞けばなんでも答えてもらって当然といった感じの
:>そのあつかましい態度が原因でしょう。
:
:I hope you don't do like many native speakers of English do. That is:
:to confuse the meanings of "ignorant" and "stupid"
:
:There is no shame in being ignorant. Being ignorant only means you
:don't know something.
:
:Being stupid means you don't know...and can't learn.
ここは日本語だとignoranceなどと言わずに『間抜け』と書くところなんです。
--
shuji matsuda smat...@med.keio.ac.jp
gary
shuji
--gary
shuji matsuda wrote:
>
> DO NOT crosspost to sci.lang.japan with your crap.
>
> Posted and emailed.
>
> In article <37591BD9...@pop21.odn.ne.jp>, gary
> <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
>
> : shuji matsuda expresses his amazement at Scott's knowledge
> :of English:
> :> (Secretly I am glad you know what lithium means. It is not a common
> :> noun in Japanese. Is it a comon word in English?)
> :
> : Masayuki YOSHIDA routinely questions native English speakers:
> :> Can you understand my English?
> :
> :Gentlemen, this may come as a shock to both of you, but we native
> :English speakers know English. We don't have to strain to understand
> :it. And words like "lithium", we just learn these words naturally in
> :the course of reading books and magazines, and watching TV. Comes quite
> :easily to us.
> :
> :How about the Japanese? Do Japanese know Japanese? This is a sincere
> :question, because I've encountered many instances when Japanese have
> :seemed ignorant of Japanese words.
[snip]
Jim Breen
>>Kenji Adzuma <adz...@rockvax.rockefeller.edu> wrote in message
>>> In article <jKf63.723$pl3....@newreader.ukcore.bt.net>, "Prince Richard
>>> Kaminski" <dobun...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > OK, fair enough, but try this. What do call "den den mushi" in
>>English?
>>> >
>>> > Snail?
>>> Right. But how did you know?
>>From that song about den den mushi, katatsumuri, etc. Katatsumuri being
>>another word for the same thing.
Dendenmushi is news to me. I see in my big Kodansha that it's
associated with the normal katatsumuri kanji. Here is the entry:
蝸牛 [でんでんむし] ★ 《「出よ出よ」に由来》→カタツムリの俗称。
This raises another question: what on earth is 「出よ出よ」?
This is the only entry in the Kodansha where this word appears.
--
Jim Breen School of Computer Science & Software Engineering
Email: j.b...@csse.monash.edu.au Monash University
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/ Clayton VIC 3168 Australia
P: +61 3 9905 3298 F: 9905 3574 ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学
Jim Breen
>>Well, a door hinge is usually called "kaname."
Isn't "kaname" the metal rod down the middle of the hinge?
Gerald B Mathias
: In article <jKf63.723$pl3....@newreader.ukcore.bt.net>, "Prince Richard
: Kaminski" <dobun...@hotmail.com> wrote:
: > Kenji Adzuma <adz...@rockvax.rockefeller.edu> wrote in message
: > news:adzuma-0506...@3tsh3-mac.rockefeller.edu...
: > > In article <37591BD9...@pop21.odn.ne.jp>, gary
: > > <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
: > >
: > > > Gentlemen, this may come as a shock to both of you, but we native
: > > > English speakers know English.
: > >
: > > OK, fair enough, but try this. What do call "den den mushi" in English?
: >
: > Snail?
: Right. But how did you know? The reason I asked that question was that I
: used to think "den den mushi" must be some kind of insect because "mushi"
: means insect. Oh well, never mind.
Well, then there is the "pure insect," mamushi.
Maybe "mushi" comes a little closer to "vermin/varmint" than "insect."
Bart
Prince Richard Kaminski
> Boy, a personal e-mail from shuji matsuda.
Lucky bitch!
Masayuki YOSHIDA
>x-no-archive: yes
>
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>
>gary wrote:
>(snip)
>
>有刺鉄線とか蝶番とかいった言葉を知らないなんて
>いったいどういう日本人と付き合ってるんですか？？(・-・)
知らない日本人ってけっこういますよ。だって、「有刺鉄線」な
んて、張ってある土地ってもうないですよ。あれ、触れると傷
つくというので、今はもう使わないんですよね。
また蝶番（ちょうつがい）も大工見習いじゃないんだから、知ら
ない人がいてもおかしくないですよ。蝶番は、形が、「てふてふ」
がペアになっているのに似ているから、その名がついているん
ですが、こういう昔はよく使い、今はもう使わないというか、日常
生活に必要でない言葉はどんどん忘れさられていくわけで、
驚くことなんかないんです。その代わり、若い人なんかは、どん
どん新しい言葉を経験していったり、作ったりするわけです。
>「ばらん」て言葉知らない人は
>近年てれびのクイズなんかで使
>い倒されるまでは結構多かった
>みたいだけど。
>
>#あと「ばれん」は小学校のころはしってたけど忘れてる
>#なんて人が多い。
さすが東大。暗記力が抜群ですね（笑）。
そこで、myawさんにクイズ。
１．高い塀なんかに矢が並んだような泥棒よけがありますが、
あれを何と呼ぶでしょうか？
２．建物なんかの外壁と溝との間の狭い部分を何と呼びますか。
３．「間」（あいだ・はざま）のことを大和ことば・雅語で何といいますか。
４．二十歳のことは「はたち」、では「四十歳」は？
５．「他人のお母さん」を文語で何ていいますか。
６．妻の父（舅）は？
７．トイレで使う紙を何といいますか。トイレット・ペーバーはぺけです。
よしだまさゆき
Francois JACQUES
> question, because I've encountered many instances when Japanese have
> seemed ignorant of Japanese words.
Okay, I know it is sunday ! :)
Gary, you gave examples of very precise words, most of them which have
been put in the japanese vocabulary recently (less than a 100 years i
think).
I understand what you mean, and I think that this is only a question of
history. I mean, cars and bikes are not a japanese invention. They where
imported so that is why almost all the names parts are english : mafula,
toranku, bureki, geaa,etc. But I know that you know !!
It is the same for construction, architecture and many fields that where
different in japan.
Do you know that the word zubon comes from the french word Jupon which
is a little under dress for women ?
I don(t think that it means japanses people don't speak japanese. It is
the same everywhere. It is only a question of educational level. You go
ine the japanese countryside and find people who cannot say what is a
barbe wire. I think that is almost normal. Ask all the yankee, I am sure
they now the word.
Point out many things to some french young people, they won't be able to
tell you the words for it, and I think it is the same with english
native tongue people !
Masayuki YOSHIDA
>On Sat, 5 Jun 1999 22:48:07 +0900, "Kazuhiro Ishii"
><nol...@writeme.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>gary wrote in message <37591BD9...@pop21.odn.ne.jp>...
>>>
>>>Is this ignorance typical of
>>>Japanese all over Japan, or only my small circle down here in Kyushu?
>>
>>
>>
>>そのあつかましい態度が原因でしょう。
>
>I hope you don't do like many native speakers of English do. That is:
>to confuse the meanings of "ignorant" and "stupid"
>
>There is no shame in being ignorant. Being ignorant only means you
>don't know something.
>
>Being stupid means you don't know...and can't learn.
そういえば、「無知の涙」というのが、ありましたね。
僕ら、学校では「無知」は「無恥」に通じるって、教えられました。
特殊な専門用語やスラングは別に知らなくてもいいんですけど、
やはり当然知っているべきことを知らないって、恥だと思います
ねえ。キャッシュさんとは、違った道徳規準での見方でしょうけど。
よしだまさゆき
>>「またはじまったよ」
>>「どうする? 教えてやろうか?」
>>みたいなやつですね。
>>
>>--
>>石井一弘
>>
>>
>
Takeyasu Wakabayashi
>
> Well, a door hinge is usually called "kaname."
>
I think "tyou tugai"(lit. "butterfly pair") is correct rendering
of "hinge".
>
> > appendix (the vestigial organ) [or even "vestigial", for that matter]
>
> no idea
"Tyuu sui"(for vermiform appendix, "tyuu" meaning "worm", "sui" meaning
"suspended").
The word "mou tyou"(for caecum) is a direct translation of German
"Blinddarm"(blind intestine).
--
Takeyasu Wakabayashi,
Faculty of Economics, Toyama University
twa...@eco.toyama-u.ac.jp
CdotBlack
Jani Patokallio <jpat...@iki.fi> wrote:
> J i r o D o k e h wrote:
> > As I was learning English, I noticed English has far more vocabulary
> > than Japanese. There seems to be a word for almost everything.
> > Sometimes, I can't find an equivalent word in Japanese. They just
> > turn out to be English or foreign words said in a Japanese way,
> > such as TEREBI, RAJIO, CONPYU-TA-, etc. I've heard of some technical
> > Japanese words for these, but a typical Japanese would not know
> > that.
> > As for words like "buckle", "rivet", "hood", "trunk", I think most Japanese
> > might just use "BAKKURU", "RIBETTO", "HU-DO", "TORANKU" for them.
Refer to the original post. He mentioned people who don't know words like
'hood' and 'trunk'. There _are_ words for these literally everyday items
but he's saying people don't know these words.
>
> Now, all the words Gary noted in his posting are relatively new concepts,
> for which there cannot have been any yamatokotoba. Belt buckles, car trunks,
> barbed wire, door hinges, etc simply did not exist in Japan even 1000 years
> ago. When these Western items entered Japan some 100 years ago, new
> words for them had to be invented somehow. An educated engineer might
> conjure up a fancy Chinese compound like "yuushitessen" for barbed wire,
> most people who deal with it on a daily basis would probably know and use
> the import "baabu waia", but for others it would remain "toge no tsuita
> harigane" unless an actual need developed to develop a shorter way of
> referring to it.
And when did car trunks and and barbed wire enter the English language?
'Trunk', 'wire', 'barb' and 'hinge' are all old, simple concepts which
would be represented in the language of any culture advanced enough to
have furniture. They were taken and applied to a new use.
Even small children know these words. Buckles may have been a bit of a
novelty in the Meiji era, but now Japan is full of buckles - buckles that
break, buckles with interesting designs, buckles that children have to
learn how to use. Why would anybody not know the word?
>
> Viewed from this point, Japanese is not particularly odd. At one extreme,
> China has kept its languages very "pure" by deriving new meaning-based
> compounds for almost all new concept. At the other extreme, English
> prefers to create its new words by either synthesizing them from
> Greek and Latin (eg. television, vocabulary, synthesis)
How is this different from what the Chinese do? (Genuine question.)
> or reassigning
> additional meanings to existing words (eg. computer, network, protocol).
They're not really additional meanings. They're the same (or an almost
identical) meaning in a new context.
> Also, the huge amount of words in English is largely due to the fact that
> in addition to its Old English base (the equivalent of yamatokotoba)
> English has imported amazing amounts of vocabulary mainly from various
> Germanic and Romance languages,
As has Japanese, from Chinese languages.
> the end result being that for a given
> concept there are often a number of more or less synonymous words which just
> happen to be imported from different languages.
Ditto Japanese.
Anyway, the issue isn't whether there are or aren't words for certain
items in Japanese but whether or not people know them. I don't think it's
as bad as Gary made out but that may be because the Japanese people I know
are sophisticated urbanites <g>.
--
Harry
"Once the ball is at Overmars's feet, it's like a piece of string."
Commentator, Radio 5 Live (via Private Eye)
Jim Breen
>>For example, the other day I was talking to a group of Japanese adults
>>about a nearby empty lot. I wanted to use the word "barbed wire", but
>>of course I didn't know this word in Japanese. So I tried describing it
>>like, "toge no tsuita harigane", and I even made a little drawing of a
>>barbed wire fence. Everyone then knew what I was talking about. But
>>not one person could tell me the Japanese word for that thing; they just
>>looked around to each other and repeated, "are, nan to yuu no?"
>>Finally, someone else came by, overheard our discussion, and informed
>>everyone that it is called "yuushitessen". She seemed quite pleased
>>with herself, knowing this word.
This doen't surprise me at all, as barbed wire is a pretty culturally
specific thing. If you are not in a society where farm animals roam in
fields, then you are unlikely to be in contact with barbed wire. I suspect
that if the Japanese adults were from rural Hokkaidou, they probably would
have known the word.
>>.... Sometime later when I was at the hardware store, I was told
>>they are called "choutsugai". The ones in your eyeglasses are called
>>"chouban". The optometrist who told me this wasn't sure, and had to
>>first look the word up in some kind of a trade manual.
Er, isn't "chouban" just another reading of the kanji in "choutsugai"?
>>Here are some other items whose Japanese names I've had trouble
>>uncovering when I've asked Japanese people:
>>pylon
鉄塔/てっとう
>>plunger
>>rivet
リベット
>>buckle (as on a belt)
締め金/しめがね or バックル
>>clipboard
>>rake (the garden tool)
レーキ or 熊手/くまで or 雁爪/がんづめ|がんずめ
>>tongs
トング or 火箸/ひばし
>>spatula
箆/へら, but more likely スパーテル|スパチュラ
>>filament (in a light bulb)
フィラメント
>>snap (the fastener)
>>appendix (the vestigial organ) [or even "vestigial", for that matter]
虫垂/ちゅうすい
>>washer (the faucet kind)
ウォッシャー|ワッシャー - the metal version is 座金/ざがね
>>socket wrench
>>practically any auto part: muffler, radiator, axle, spark plug, et al.
>>I've met some Japanese who don't even know the words for "hood" and
>>"trunk"; they say "mae" ("front") and "ushiro" ("back").
--
Jim Breen
>>> rivet
>>"ribetto" or "tome kanagu"
Do you have the kanji for "tome kanagu"? I can't identify them
positively enough.
>>> spatula
>>"(yaku you) saji" (spoon to measure drug)
Is that really what a spatula is??
>>I think the "hood" is called "bon netto" in Japanese. I don't know where
>>"bon netto" originated from, though.
British English. We call the "car bonnets" too.
Lei Tanabe
Gerald B Mathias wrote in message <7jciek$l...@news.Hawaii.Edu>...
>Kenji Adzuma (adz...@rockvax.rockefeller.edu) wrote:
>: In article <jKf63.723$pl3....@newreader.ukcore.bt.net>, "Prince Richard
>: Kaminski" <dobun...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>: > Kenji Adzuma <adz...@rockvax.rockefeller.edu> wrote in message
>: > > OK, fair enough, but try this. What do call "den den mushi" in
English?
>: >
>: > Snail?
>
>: Right. But how did you know? The reason I asked that question was that
I
>: used to think "den den mushi" must be some kind of insect because "mushi"
>: means insect. Oh well, never mind.
>
>Well, then there is the "pure insect," mamushi.
>
>Maybe "mushi" comes a little closer to "vermin/varmint" than "insect."
How's "tamushi", "midori-mushi", "sanada-mushi", "hara no mushi"...?
I think they are "bugs".
Anyway, in the old usage, "虫 mushi" refers to all animals except human,
other mammals, birds and fish.
"蝸牛 katatsumuri (dendenmushi)" was "出出虫 dedemushi" and "蝮 mamushi" was
originally written "真虫 mamushi".
There are quite a few phrases including "mushi", e.g. "mushi ga ii", "mushi
ga shiraseru", "mushi ga tsuku", etc.
Lei
Lei Tanabe
Kenji Adzuma wrote in message ...
>
>Well, a door hinge is usually called "kaname."
"kaname" is the pivot of the fan (扇 oogi).
I think it also refers to a pin part of the hinge.
Lei
Scott Reynolds
> In Japan I might buy that argument when it comes to "barbed
> wire"....but to include such articles as belt buckles???? Somehow I
> think I find that more offensive than Gary pointing out that some
> people don't know those words.
I wonder if gary was requiring people to reply without using katakana
words. For example, I'd always thought that the Japanese word for a belt
buckle was "bakkuru." These posts sparked my interest, and I went and
looked up buckle in a dictionary to see if there were some other
equivalents. I found "shimegane." But it seems to me that this could
refer to just about any type of metal fastener, not only buckles.
This might be what is happening with some of the other words on gary's
list as well, such as "washer." Perhaps either he or the people he asked
were looking for "Japanese" words for those things and were thus
excluding their common names, which are katakana words. Then again,
maybe gary has annoyed his acquaintances with excessive questions to the
point that they no longer will give him a strait answer, as Ishii-san
suggested. Who knows.
_______________________________________________________________
Scott Reynolds s...@gol.com
Mike Wright
[...]
> Dendenmushi is news to me. I see in my big Kodansha that it's
> associated with the normal katatsumuri kanji. Here is the entry:
>
> 蝸牛 [でんでんむし] ★ 《「出よ出よ」に由来》→カタツムリの俗称。
"Katatsumuri" looks like a nice long word that ought to have recognizable
components, but I can't find any way to break it down--no "katatsu", no
"tsumuri/tsumuru" in my dictionaries. Any info on where it came from? The kanji
is from the Chinese word, and the "ushi" obviously refers to the snail's
"horns", but it doesn't seem to relate to the kunyomi in any regular way.
> This raises another question: what on earth is 「出よ出よ」?
I believe that it is a line from the Calypso song, _The Banana Boat Song_, made
famous in the late '50s by Harry Belafonte. Obviously the innocuous snail is
being contrasted with the "deadly black tarantula".
BTW, my Sanseido's J-E dictionary has both "katatsumuri" and "denden" in
hiragana, with "mushi" in kanji.
--
Mike Wright
http://www.mbay.net/~darwin/language.html
_____________________________________________________
"China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese."
-- Charles de Gaulle
Scott Reynolds
> Right. But how did you know? The reason I asked that question was that I
> used to think "den den mushi" must be some kind of insect because "mushi"
> means insect. Oh well, never mind.
That's like the English "crayfish," which is not a fish at all.
_______________________________________________________________
Scott Reynolds s...@gol.com
Scott Reynolds
> > appendix (the vestigial organ) [or even "vestigial", for that matter]
>
> no idea
You're putting us on! Even I know that this is called "mouchou."
> I think the "hood" is called "bon netto" in Japanese. I don't know where
> "bon netto" originated from, though.
It comes from "bonnet," which is British usage. BTW, lots of Japanese
automotive terms reflect British, rather than American, usage. "Uinkaa"
for "turn signal" is another one that comes to mind.
_______________________________________________________________
Scott Reynolds s...@gol.com
Michael Cash
wrote:
>
>Gerald B Mathias wrote in message <7jciek$l...@news.Hawaii.Edu>...
>>Kenji Adzuma (adz...@rockvax.rockefeller.edu) wrote:
>>: In article <jKf63.723$pl3....@newreader.ukcore.bt.net>, "Prince Richard
>>: Kaminski" <dobun...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>: > Kenji Adzuma <adz...@rockvax.rockefeller.edu> wrote in message
>
>>: > > OK, fair enough, but try this. What do call "den den mushi" in
>English?
>>: >
>>: > Snail?
>>
>>: Right. But how did you know? The reason I asked that question was that
>I
>>: used to think "den den mushi" must be some kind of insect because "mushi"
>>: means insect. Oh well, never mind.
>>
>>Well, then there is the "pure insect," mamushi.
>>
>>Maybe "mushi" comes a little closer to "vermin/varmint" than "insect."
>
>
>How's "tamushi", "midori-mushi", "sanada-mushi", "hara no mushi"...?
>I think they are "bugs".
>
>Anyway, in the old usage, "虫 mushi" refers to all animals except human,
>other mammals, birds and fish.
>"蝸牛 katatsumuri (dendenmushi)" was "出出虫 dedemushi" and "蝮 mamushi" was
>originally written "真虫 mamushi".
>
>There are quite a few phrases including "mushi", e.g. "mushi ga ii", "mushi
>ga shiraseru", "mushi ga tsuku", etc.
>
>Lei
And let's not forget the ojama-mushi and the shingou-mushi....two
common pests throughout Japan.
>
>
>
Takeyasu Wakabayashi
>
> So is 'chuusui' or 'mouchou' used? Or are they both used? I showed the
> kanji for chuusui to a Japanese friend and he didn't recognize it until I
> told him what it was. My dictionary gives:
>
`Tyuusui' is somewhat formal and rigorous term used in diagnoses
by physicians. `Moutyou' is used in casual conversations.
Consult a medical dictionary for difference between `appendix' and `caecum'.
I'm not physician, either.
Fabian
Prince Richard Kaminski wrote in message ...
>> The reason I asked that question was that I
>> used to think "den den mushi" must be some kind of insect because "mushi"
>> means insect. Oh well, never mind.
>
>I know what you mean. There are words like that in English too, although I
>can't think of any at the moment. I'm thinking of things like the name of a
>flower which sounds like an animal, and vice versa perhaps.
You mean like Tiger Lilies?
Oh wait, that's one of Rupert T. Bear's friends :)
---
Fabian
Rule One: Question the unquestionable,
ask the unaskable, eff the ineffable,
think the unthinkable, and screw the inscrutable.
Prince Richard Kaminski
Mike Wright <dar...@mbay.net> wrote in message
news:375A2962...@mbay.net...
> "Katatsumuri" looks like a nice long word that ought to have recognizable
> components, but I can't find any way to break it down--no "katatsu", no
> "tsumuri/tsumuru" in my dictionaries. Any info on where it came from?
Tsumuri means "head", and is written with the "atama" kanji, but I think
it's a rare/antiquated word. Kata of course from "katai" = "hard head".
Jim Breen
>>How's "tamushi", "midori-mushi", "sanada-mushi", "hara no mushi"...?
>>I think they are "bugs".
Isn't tamamushi a fungus?
>>There are quite a few phrases including "mushi", e.g. "mushi ga ii", "mushi
>>ga shiraseru", "mushi ga tsuku", etc.
And "hara no mushi ga osamaranai", of which there has been a fair bit
it this NG recently 8-)}
Prince Richard Kaminski
Jim Breen <j...@nexus.dgs.monash.edu.au> wrote in message
news:7jdi1p$ucu$1...@towncrier.cc.monash.edu.au...
> And "hara no mushi ga osamaranai", of which there has been a fair bit
> it this NG recently 8-)}
And the person stirring things up appears to have been a "yowamushi" and has
run away.
Kazuhiro Ishii
CdotBlack wrote in message ...
>
>Refer to the original post. He mentioned people who don't know words like
>'hood' and 'trunk'.
どこをどう読むとそういう解釈になるのかよくわからないのですが、
「the original post」のどこらへんにそんなことが
書いてあったのですか?
--
石井一弘
Fabian
I think this problem of loan words cuts both ways. Does anyone know what the
English word (as opposed to the word borrowed from the original language) is
for any of the following:
kimono
pyjamas
khopesh
panda
naginata
samovar
yashmak
[I could go on almost forever here]
If you argue that these have become English words, regardless of source, I
could just as reasonably argue that wassha, kaa, bakkuru and konpyuuta and
so on ad nauseam have become Japanese over time.
Mimi
<snip>
> Gentlemen, ....
Are you seriously excluding a half of the world population?
>..............this may come as a shock to both of you, but we native
> English speakers know English. We don't have to strain to understand
> it.
Those "gentlemen" might agree but I'm not one and I won't agree. I will
give you a wee challenge.
Can you explain (Either in English or Japanese) following terms WITHOUT
LOOKING UP REFERENCE.
1 lahar (Science/Geology)
2 plume (Science/Geology)
3 parallelism (English)
4 oxymoron (English)
5 sovereignty (Social Studies)
They are some of the words that the students at my school (NZ) learn.
Numbers 1,
2 and 5 are taught at year 10 (14 years old), numbers 3 and 4 are at year
12(16 years old), I think.
My point is that no native speaker of Japanese or English (or of any
language) knows 100% of the vocabulary. Average individual, I should
imagine, would know probably less than a third of the vocabulary included in
a reputable middle size dictionary (such as Oxford or Koojien by Iwanami).
And to become a good user of your own language, you have to work hard to
polish your style and enrich your vocabulary. Very far from "don't have to
strain to understand it".
Mimi
Mimi
CdotBlack <c.b...@geocities.com> wrote in message
news:c.black-0606...@27.pool8.tokyo.att.ne.jp...
>
SNIP
>
> Even small children know these words. Buckles may have been a bit of a
> novelty in the Meiji era, but now Japan is full of buckles - buckles that
> break, buckles with interesting designs, buckles that children have to
> learn how to use. Why would anybody not know the word?
We all do. We call them バックル (bakkuru in roma-ji)
Mimi
Prince Richard Kaminski
Mimi <mark...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:92866654...@estelle.paradise.net.nz...
>
> gary <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote in message
> news:37591BD9...@pop21.odn.ne.jp...
>
> <snip>
>
> > Gentlemen, ....
>
> Are you seriously excluding a half of the world population?
He was addressing only the ignorant half. The rest did not need to be told.
Michael Cash
<mazyo...@aol.com> wrote:
>myaw wrote in message <37598A9C...@remove.this>...
>>x-no-archive: yes
>>
>>
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>
>>gary wrote:
>>(snip)
>>
>> $BM-;IE4@~$H$+D3HV$H$+$$$C$?8@MU$rCN$i$J$$$J$s$F (B
>> $B$$$C$?$$$I$&$$$&F|K\?M$HIU$-9g$C$F$k$s$G$9$+!)!) (B( $B!& (B- $B!& (B)
>
> $BCN$i$J$$F|K\?M$C$F$1$C$3$&$$$^$9$h!#$@$C$F!"!VM-;IE4@~!W$J (B
> $B$s$F!"D%$C$F$"$kEZCO$C$F$b$&$J$$$G$9$h!#$"$l!"?($l$k$H=} (B
> $B$D$/$H$$$&$N$G!":#$O$b$&;H$o$J$$$s$G$9$h$M!# (B
‚à‚¤‘S‘R‚È‚¢‚킯‚¶‚á‚È‚¢ B Z‚ñ‚Å‚¢‚½ƒAƒp [ƒg‚ׂ̗̓y’n‚É’£
‚Á‚Ä‚¢‚½ B‰½‰ñ‚àŒ©‚½‚±‚Æ‚ ‚è‚Ü‚· B
>
> $B$^$?D3HV!J$A$g$&$D$,$$!K$bBg9)8+=,$$$8$c$J$$$s$@$+$i!"CN$i (B
> $B$J$$?M$,$$$F$b$*$+$7$/$J$$$G$9$h!#D3HV$O!"7A$,!"!V$F$U$F$U!W (B
> $B$,%Z%"$K$J$C$F$$$k$N$K;w$F$$$k$+$i!"$=$NL>$,$D$$$F$$$k$s (B
> $B$G$9$,!"$3$&$$$&@N$O$h$/;H$$!":#$O$b$&;H$o$J$$$H$$$&$+!"F|>o (B
> $B@83h$KI,MW$G$J$$8@MU$O$I$s$I$sK:$l$5$i$l$F$$$/$o$1$G!" (B
> $B6C$/$3$H$J$s$+$J$$$s$G$9!#$=$NBe$o$j!"<c$$?M$J$s$+$O!"$I$s (B
> $B$I$s?7$7$$8@MU$r7P83$7$F$$$C$?$j!":n$C$?$j$9$k$o$1$G$9!# (B
>
>> $B!V$P$i$s!W$F8@MUCN$i$J$$?M$O (B
>> $B6aG/$F$l$S$N%/%$%:$J$s$+$G;H (B
>> $B$$E]$5$l$k$^$G$O7k9=B?$+$C$? (B
>> $B$_$?$$$@$1$I!# (B
>>
>># $B$"$H!V$P$l$s!W$O>.3X9;$N$3$m$O$7$C$F$?$1$IK:$l$F$k (B
>># $B$J$s$F?M$,B?$$!# (B
>
> $B$5$9$,ElBg!#0E5-NO$,H472$G$9$M!J>P!K!# (B
>
> $B$=$3$G!" (Bmyaw $B$5$s$K%/%$%:!# (B
>
> $B#1!%9b$$J=$J$s$+$KLp$,JB$s$@$h$&$JE%K@$h$1$,$"$j$^$9$,!" (B
> $B$"$l$r2?$H8F$V$G$7$g$&$+!) (B
>
> $B#2!%7zJ*$J$s$+$N30JI$H9B$H$N4V$N69$$ItJ,$r2?$H8F$S$^$9$+!# (B
>
> $B#3!%!V4V!W!J$"$$$@!&$O$6$^!K$N$3$H$rBgOB$3$H$P!&2m8l$G2?$H$$$$$^$9$+!# (B
>
> $B#4!%Fs==:P$N$3$H$O!V$O$?$A!W!"$G$O!V;M==:P!W$O!) (B
>
> $B#5!%!VB>?M$N$*Jl$5$s!W$rJ88l$G2?$F$$$$$^$9$+!# (B
>
> $B#6!%:J$NIc!JgO!K$O!) (B
>
> $B#7!%%H%$%l$G;H$&;f$r2?$H$$$$$^$9$+!#%H%$%l%C%H!&%Z!<%P!<$O$Z$1$G$9!# (B
>
> $B$h$7$@$^$5$f$- (B
>
>
Michael Cash
<rhi...@chikyuujin.earthling.net> wrote:
>
>>I think the "hood" is called "bon netto" in Japanese. I don't know where
>>"bon netto" originated from, though.
>
>
>Well, when I find myself having to translate American into English, "hood"
>becomes "bonnet".
>
>Which brings us to an interesting question.
>
>Of the loan words that are from the English language, there are some which
>are recognisably from one specific English-speaking country. But which
>country has Japanese borrowed more words from?
There are a few strange cases.
For example, trucks are called trucks. Unless they are tanker trucks.
In which case they are called lorries.
Prince Richard Kaminski
Fabian <rhi...@chikyuujin.earthling.net> wrote in message
news:7jdion$1k9t$4...@quince.news.easynet.net...
>
>
> I think this problem of loan words cuts both ways. Does anyone know what
the
> English word (as opposed to the word borrowed from the original language)
is
> for any of the following:
>
> kimono
Japanese traditional dress
> pyjamas
night attire
> khopesh
what that?
> panda
police car
> naginata
what that?
> samovar
tea making thingy
> yashmak
what that?
> If you argue that these have become English words, regardless of source, I
> could just as reasonably argue that wassha, kaa, bakkuru and konpyuuta and
> so on ad nauseam have become Japanese over time.
I don't think there is any doubt that borrowed words are just as much a part
of any language as its so-called "native" vocabulary.
Michael Cash
wrote:
>On 05 Jun 1999 16:36:32 -0700, Darin Johnson <da...@usa.net.NOSPAM>
>caught my attention by saying:
>
>>For instance, English has "cotton gin" (why it's called
>>that isn't well known)
>
>Eli Whitney named it after an animal cage, or "gin," because of how it
>was constructed and worked. Legend has it that he got the idea
>watching a cat try to extract a chicken from such a cage, said cat
>retrieving only feathers for its efforts. The cotton gin rakes the
>fibers out through a grate, leaving the seeds of the boll behind.
And all this time I thought it was a corruption of "engine".....learn
something everyday....
>
>--
>Doug Wickstrom
>"Man will never reach the moon regardless of all future scientific
>advances." --Lee DeForest
>
Michael Cash
>> Here are some other items whose Japanese names I've had trouble
>> uncovering when I've asked Japanese people:
>>
>> hinge
>> plunger
>
>It seems to me like these two things, anyway, would be pretty new to the
>Japanese public.
>I'm not trying to troll. I mean, how many people still live with sliding
>doors in their houses?
>My wife didn't know the word for 'hinge,' but she just explained to me what
>it was. And
>(I'm not sure on this one), but with Japanese style toilets, were plungers
>ever needed? How
>long have western style toilets been commonplace in Japan? I asked my wife
>this one, too
>(it was the last one I asked) and she started to say something like "pon--"
>but didn't finish
>for fear of looking stupid. Try asking someone what a rabu hoteru is in
>English. You may
>get "Love Hotel," but that doesn't really have a defined meaning in English.
Never heard of the "Motel No-tell"?
>If they don't know
>a word, it's probably because they don't use the word or they don't have a
>need for the word.
>
>> appendix (the vestigial organ) [or even "vestigial", for that matter]
>
>But has no one had their appendix out in Japan? I think this one is
>'mouchou' ('mouchou o toru').
>And I don't even know what vestigial is in English, let alone another
>language.
>
>And I was just curious, so I asked my Japanese wife if she knew 'tonsils.'
>She said 'nodochinko'
>right off the bat, and after I laughed I coaxed the real word, 'hentou,' out
>of her. I guess it's like
>people using 'charinko' instead of 'jitensha.' Or maybe it's a generation
>thing, since we're in our 20's.
>
>
>I think this is going in another direction, away from "Japanese people don't
>know these words..."
>to a difference in language use and why they would use the words. For
>example, one could say,
>"chin shitoite" for "warm this up," since the denshi range goes "chin" when
>it's finished (but saying,
>"ding this, will ya'" in English would be a bit strange). And "Poi Sute
>Kinshi" (where "poi" is the sound
>of throwing trash) on the side of the road (have you ever seen a sign in
>English that said, "No Plooping"?).
>I think this is a good topic for the usage of Japanese and "why don't they
>know/use these kinds of words?"
>Japanese use a lot of onomotopiea that has no direct translation, except for
>a lengthy explanation of the
>concept. That doesn't mean that people who speak English are long winded or
>can't express their ideas well.
>
>
>
>Brian Dunn
>bd...@netmagic.net
>
>
>
gary
J i r o D o k e h wrote:
>
> Yes, I can understand what you mean. As a Japanese, I notice that
> many Japanese may be ignorant about certain words like the ones
> you mentions, which are specific nouns of parts of things.
> As I was learning English, I noticed English has far more vocabulary
> than Japanese. There seems to be a word for almost everything.
> Sometimes, I can't find an equivalent word in Japanese. They just
> turn out to be English or foreign words said in a Japanese way,
> such as TEREBI, RAJIO, CONPYU-TA-, etc. I've heard of some technical
> Japanese words for these, but a typical Japanese would not know
> that.
> As for words like "buckle", "rivet", "hood", "trunk", I think most Japanese
> might just use "BAKKURU", "RIBETTO", "HU-DO", "TORANKU" for them.
> As you know, Japanese uses A LOT of foreign words as it is.
>
> From the fact that Enlish is more vocabulary oriented, you may
> learn words like "lithium" naturally, but Japanese don't learn
> that naturally.
But why do you think this is so? I don't remember ever "learning" the
word "barbed wire" in school -- it's just one of those words you acquire
unconsciously as you grow up listening and reading. Would a Japanese TV
newscast or movie or novel use the word "yuushitessen"?
>
> Another thing which made me believe English is more vocabulary
> oriented is from the instructions or manuals. For example,
> an English setup manual may have a lot of words. It may say
> "First, put part A on top of part B. Screw the two pieces
> together with bolt and nut C..." In a Japanese manual, all
> these will probably be done using a figure or a setup diagram.
>
> Same thing for maps. When some of my American friends give
> directions, they write the directions: "Go north for 2 miles
> on 3rd street. Take a left on the next light. Go up 4 blocks..."
> Japanese usually draws a map and uses as few words as possible.
This is an interesting observation. Have you ever noticed that Japanese
cookbooks almost always have illustrations accompanying each step of a
recipe? But that's not the case with US/UK cookbooks; usually a recipe
consists of text only. And oftentimes, even the finished dish is not
depicted, only its name.
--gary
gary
Kenji Adzuma wrote:
>
> In article <37591BD9...@pop21.odn.ne.jp>, gary
> <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
>
> > One other time, the hinge on a door was loose, so I tightened it back up
> > with a screwdriver. Afterwards, I told someone that I had fixed the
> > door. I didn't know what a hinge is called in Japanese, so I pointed to
> > it and asked. Again, I was met with silence. After asking around to
> > some more people, I discovered not one Japanese person knew what it is
> > called. Sometime later when I was at the hardware store, I was told
> > they are called "choutsugai".
>
> Well, a door hinge is usually called "kaname."
You sure about this one? My dictionary says kaname 要 is "rivet" or
"pivot". No mention of "hinge". Do most Japanese know the word
"kaname"?
>
> > Here are some other items whose Japanese names I've had trouble
> > uncovering when I've asked Japanese people:
> >
> > pylon
>
> "(ookina) mon" isn't it?
"big thing"? "big problem"?
> > plunger
>
> This one is somehow called "pisuton" (piston) in Japanese.
I meant the rubber suction cup on a handle used to unclog toilets. Are
you an engineer and not a janitor, Kenji?
> > clipboard
>
> "keiji ban" (display board). Not exact, but close enough.
You can hold a keiji ban in your hands?
>
> > rake (the garden tool)
>
> Well, people use a "take bouki" (broom made of bundled bamboo twigs) to
> gather fallen leaves; they don't use a rake. If they saw a rake, I
> imagine they would call it like "(take de dekita) kumade."
Rakes are sold here in Japan, both American size and scaled-down
miniature versions for one hand use. Usually made of bamboo. "Kumade"
or "kuma no te" is what I hear where I live.
> > spatula
>
> "(yaku you) saji" (spoon to measure drug)
You must make some killer pancakes, Kenji. Spatula is called "taana"
("turner") in Japan. You flip pancakes and hamburgers with it. Do
chemists have a thing called "spatula" too?
> > snap (the fastener)
>
> "tomegane"
Snaps like those used in place of buttons on clothing? I thought
"tomegane" was for things like jewelry clasps.
>
> > appendix (the vestigial organ) [or even "vestigial", for that matter]
>
> no idea
Your kidding. Ordinary Japanese not knowing this word, I can
understand. But you, Kenji, are on the smart side. Have you just
forgotten Japanese words, having lived in the US so long?
>
> > washer (the faucet kind)
>
> "wasshaa"
I thought it was "pakkin" ("packing").
> > practically any auto part: muffler, radiator, axle, spark plug, et al.
> > I've met some Japanese who don't even know the words for "hood" and
> > "trunk"; they say "mae" ("front") and "ushiro" ("back").
>
> I think the "hood" is called "bon netto" in Japanese. I don't know where
> "bon netto" originated from, though.
Bonnet is from UK English. Funny, in Japanese it's the UK "bonetto" for
the front, but the US "toranku" for the back.
--gary
gary
myaw wrote:
>
> gary wrote:
> (snip)
>
> 有刺鉄線とか蝶番とかいった言葉を知らないなんて
> いったいどういう日本人と付き合ってるんですか？？(・-・)
有刺鉄線, maybe they know, if they are smart like you. But you say
every Japanese knows 蝶番? LOL!
蝶番 tests:
1. Point to a 蝶番 and ask if they know what it is called.
2. Show them the word 蝶番 and ask if they know what it is.
3. Ask them,“蝶番というのは、何だと思いますか？”
Try maybe 10 people for each test. Share your results, myaw.
As a comparison, you can try it in English for native English speakers
too. Remember, 蝶番 = hinge. Everyone will pass the tests. Believe
me.
--gary
gary
Jani Patokallio wrote:
>
> J i r o D o k e h wrote:
> > As I was learning English, I noticed English has far more vocabulary
> > than Japanese. There seems to be a word for almost everything.
> > Sometimes, I can't find an equivalent word in Japanese. They just
> > turn out to be English or foreign words said in a Japanese way,
> > such as TEREBI, RAJIO, CONPYU-TA-, etc. I've heard of some technical
> > Japanese words for these, but a typical Japanese would not know
> > that.
> > As for words like "buckle", "rivet", "hood", "trunk", I think most Japanese
> > might just use "BAKKURU", "RIBETTO", "HU-DO", "TORANKU" for them.
> > As you know, Japanese uses A LOT of foreign words as it is.
>
> I think that there are a number of separate issues here.
>
> Japanese contains three distinct types of vocabulary: the original
> Japanese yamatokotoba, which form whole words and cannot be decomposed into
> parts; Chinese compound words, whose meaning can (in theory) be derived
> from their kanji; and gairaigo imported wholesale from other languages,
> these days usually English.
>
> Now, all the words Gary noted in his posting are relatively new concepts,
> for which there cannot have been any yamatokotoba. Belt buckles, car trunks,
> barbed wire, door hinges, etc simply did not exist in Japan even 1000 years
> ago.
Yes, I've heard this "recent coinage" explanation from Japanese when
I've discussed this phenomenon. But to me, it just don't float. Most
of those items I listed didn't exist in the Western countries 1000 years
ago either. Take for example auto parts: the automobile came into
existence almost concurrently in the US, Europe, and Japan. And at any
rate, cars have been used in Japan since the birth of practically every
Japanese alive today. So why doesn't every Japanese know what a spark
plug is called? My grandmother does, and she's not an auto mechanic.
She can't even drive.
> When these Western items entered Japan some 100 years ago, new
> words for them had to be invented somehow. An educated engineer might
> conjure up a fancy Chinese compound like "yuushitessen" for barbed wire,
> most people who deal with it on a daily basis would probably know and use
> the import "baabu waia", but for others it would remain "toge no tsuita
> harigane" unless an actual need developed to develop a shorter way of
> referring to it.
Yes, the "senmongo" explanation. I've heard this one too. But again,
this doesn't explain why laymen in English-speaking countries know a
word like "barbed wire". Again, my grandmother definitely does, and
she's not a cowboy. She can't even ride a horse.
I started this line of questioning up above with Jiro, but do you think
a Japanese TV newscast would employ the word "yuushitessen" when the
situation demanded it? Seems reasonable to me. I really doubt a sloppy
phrase like "toge no tsuita harigane" would find its way into an prim
NHK newscast. So why don't Japanese just pick these words up naturally?
> Viewed from this point, Japanese is not particularly odd. At one extreme,
> China has kept its languages very "pure" by deriving new meaning-based
> compounds for almost all new concept. At the other extreme, English
> prefers to create its new words by either synthesizing them from
> Greek and Latin (eg. television, vocabulary, synthesis) or reassigning
> additional meanings to existing words (eg. computer, network, protocol).
> Also, the huge amount of words in English is largely due to the fact that
> in addition to its Old English base (the equivalent of yamatokotoba)
> English has imported amazing amounts of vocabulary mainly from various
> Germanic and Romance languages, the end result being that for a given
> concept there are often a number of more or less synonymous words which just
> happen to be imported from different languages.
And Japanese has imported lots of words from English. But why do modern
Japanese seem unfamiliar with so many? The words are there, in
katakana, listed in dictionaries. And printed on packages. And
mentioned in books and magazines.
--gary
Michael Cash
wrote:
>In sci.lang.japan gary <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
>
>>>For example, the other day I was talking to a group of Japanese adults
>>>about a nearby empty lot. I wanted to use the word "barbed wire", but
>>>of course I didn't know this word in Japanese. So I tried describing it
>>>like, "toge no tsuita harigane", and I even made a little drawing of a
>>>barbed wire fence. Everyone then knew what I was talking about. But
>>>not one person could tell me the Japanese word for that thing; they just
>>>looked around to each other and repeated, "are, nan to yuu no?"
>>>Finally, someone else came by, overheard our discussion, and informed
>>>everyone that it is called "yuushitessen". She seemed quite pleased
>>>with herself, knowing this word.
>
>This doen't surprise me at all, as barbed wire is a pretty culturally
>specific thing. If you are not in a society where farm animals roam in
>fields, then you are unlikely to be in contact with barbed wire. I suspect
>that if the Japanese adults were from rural Hokkaidou, they probably would
>have known the word.
I lived right in the middle of a town with a population of 120,000. I
don't remember seeing any livestock to speak of. There was, however,
about 3 strands of barbed wire surrounding the yard next door to my
apartment. The yard housed equipment for the municipal street
department.
>
>>>.... Sometime later when I was at the hardware store, I was told
>>>they are called "choutsugai". The ones in your eyeglasses are called
>>>"chouban". The optometrist who told me this wasn't sure, and had to
>>>first look the word up in some kind of a trade manual.
>
>Er, isn't "chouban" just another reading of the kanji in "choutsugai"?
>
>>>Here are some other items whose Japanese names I've had trouble
>>>uncovering when I've asked Japanese people:
>
>>>pylon
>
>鉄塔/てっとう
>
>>>plunger
>>>rivet
>
>リベット
>
>>>buckle (as on a belt)
>
>締め金/しめがね or バックル
>
>>>clipboard
>>>rake (the garden tool)
>
>レーキ or 熊手/くまで or 雁爪/がんづめ|がんずめ
>
>>>tongs
>
>トング or 火箸/ひばし
>
>>>spatula
>
>箆/へら, but more likely スパーテル|スパチュラ
>
>>>filament (in a light bulb)
>
>フィラメント
>
>>>snap (the fastener)
>>>appendix (the vestigial organ) [or even "vestigial", for that matter]
>
>虫垂/ちゅうすい
>
>>>washer (the faucet kind)
>
>ウォッシャー|ワッシャー - the metal version is 座金/ざがね
>
>>>socket wrench
>>>practically any auto part: muffler, radiator, axle, spark plug, et al.
>>>I've met some Japanese who don't even know the words for "hood" and
>>>"trunk"; they say "mae" ("front") and "ushiro" ("back").
>
Lei Tanabe
BDunn wrote in message <92865029...@news.remarQ.com>...
>> >>> spatula
>>
>> >>"(yaku you) saji" (spoon to measure drug)
>>
>
>Didn't anybody bother to look it up in a dictionary? It's 'hera,' and even
>my wife uses that word.
In the laboratory, "スパチュラ supachura" is a long-handled shallow spoon
which is used to scoop chemicals.
Lei
gary
Gerald B Mathias wrote:
>
>
> Maybe "mushi" comes a little closer to "vermin/varmint" than "insect."
"Mushi" can also be used for "germ". Ain't that right, shuji?
--gary
gary
Scott Reynolds wrote:
>
> Michael Cash wrote:
>
> > In Japan I might buy that argument when it comes to "barbed
> > wire"....but to include such articles as belt buckles???? Somehow I
> > think I find that more offensive than Gary pointing out that some
> > people don't know those words.
>
> I wonder if gary was requiring people to reply without using katakana
> words.
No, just simply asking, "kore, non to yuu no?"
> This might be what is happening with some of the other words on gary's
> list as well, such as "washer." Perhaps either he or the people he asked
> were looking for "Japanese" words for those things and were thus
> excluding their common names, which are katakana words.
Possible, but it doesn't seem that way. Besides, what's the Japanese
word for "banana"? No Japanese has a problem identifying that one when
asked, "kore, nan to yuu no?"
> Then again,
> maybe gary has annoyed his acquaintances with excessive questions to the
> point that they no longer will give him a strait answer, as Ishii-san
> suggested. Who knows.
Now, now, Scott. "Who knows?" Apparently not Mr. Reynolds. You sound
a little perturbed that once again I have beaten you to the punch and
documented another revealing characteristic of the Japanese people.
Tossing sour grapes at 'ol gary seems all the rage lately...
By the way, just to rub your nose in it: I first encountered this
"object unfamiliarity" in the Japanese way back in 1988. It's taken you
this long to know Japanese students don't know the word for "buckle"? I
guess for social scientists like me, this sort of thing just comes
naturally.
--gary
gary
Fabian wrote:
>
> I think this problem of loan words cuts both ways. Does anyone know what the
> English word (as opposed to the word borrowed from the original language) is
> for any of the following:
>
> kimono
> pyjamas
> khopesh
> panda
> naginata
> samovar
> yashmak
>
> [I could go on almost forever here]
>
> If you argue that these have become English words, regardless of source, I
> could just as reasonably argue that wassha, kaa, bakkuru and konpyuuta and
> so on ad nauseam have become Japanese over time.
Precisely. Those words -- and lots others -- *have* become Japanese.
My questions is why don't all Japanese know them in the same way that
all English speakers know "pajamas"?
--gary
gary
BDunn wrote:
>
> > Here are some other items whose Japanese names I've had trouble
> > uncovering when I've asked Japanese people:
> >
> > hinge
> > plunger
>
> It seems to me like these two things, anyway, would be pretty new to the
> Japanese public.
> I'm not trying to troll. I mean, how many people still live with sliding
> doors in their houses?
Every Japanese dwelling has a front door with hinges. Lots more inside
as well. Also, many many Japanese wear eyeglasses.
> And
> (I'm not sure on this one), but with Japanese style toilets, were plungers
> ever needed? How
> long have western style toilets been commonplace in Japan?
This is a good point. But western-style are very very common now. And
modern Japanese-style toilets are no longer holes in the ground. I'm
guessing here, but I would think a plunger might be necessary
occasionally.
> I think this is going in another direction, away from "Japanese people don't
> know these words..."
> to a difference in language use and why they would use the words. For
> example, one could say,
> "chin shitoite" for "warm this up," since the denshi range goes "chin" when
> it's finished (but saying,
> "ding this, will ya'" in English would be a bit strange).
Yes, expressions like this annoy me to no end. They sound
so...babyish. I refuse to use them. I've heard mothers tell their
children to hand something over to a third person by saying, "hai shite"
("do 'yes'"). Actually, it's a long, drawn out "haaaaaaaaai shite".
Makes me shiver when I hear it.
--gary
gary
Doug Wickstrom wrote:
>
> On Sat, 05 Jun 1999 21:45:13 +0900, gary <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp>
> caught my attention by saying:
>
> >By now, Scott and Akira are probably all set to jump on my butt and say
> >I'm overgeneralizing again. But I'm not. I've not yet concluded that
> >many Japanese are unfamiliar with the names of everyday objects. I'm
> >putting the question to all of you: Is this ignorance typical of
> >Japanese all over Japan, or only my small circle down here in Kyushu?
> >Won't you ask around for me? Just point to the rivet in your jeans, the
> >hinge in your glasses, the buckle on your belt, the exhaust pipe on your
> >car, and ask some Japanese friends, "kore, nihongo de nan to yuu no?"
> >Share your results.
>
> Consider, if you will, the possibility that your acquaintances all
> know perfectly good words for many of these things, but also know
> these words to be gairaigo. You asked for the _Japanese_ names for
> these things. I, as a native English speaker, might have some
> difficulty coming up with a simple descriptive English term for, say,
> karaoke. Somehow "empty orchestra" doesn't quite fit the bill. :)
>
I touched on this possibility in my response to Scott. I really don't
think this is the case. Try asking a few Japanese the names of some
objects and see what you think.
--gary
Masayuki YOSHIDA
>
> shuji matsuda expresses his amazement at Scott's knowledge
>of English:
>> (Secretly I am glad you know what lithium means. It is not a common
>> noun in Japanese. Is it a comon word in English?)
>
> Masayuki YOSHIDA routinely questions native English speakers:
>> Can you understand my English?
>
>Gentlemen, this may come as a shock to both of you, but we native
>English speakers know English.
Not exactly. You native English speakers know PART of English. Not
the whole of English. It would be an easy task to prove that. Can you
define the term "deontology," for example? Evidently that is AN English
word, you know. But if I use that word and other related ones, I have to
say "gary, can you understand my English?" Chiefly because the word
is not what ordinary people use on a daily basis.
Thus I might say that understanding of a word depends upon the situation
related to the speaker. If we speakers are both philosopher or someone
like that, there is no need to ask the question that should be left unsaid.
>We don't have to strain to understand
>it. And words like "lithium", we just learn these words naturally in
>the course of reading books and magazines, and watching TV. Comes quite
>easily to us.
Us? Oh, it sounds like "we Japanese." ;-)
When it comes to "us," I have an English friend in UK. He used to be
a coal miner in Doncaster, North England. He is not well-educated, so
I sometimes have to make sure of whether he can understand my
English or not. So his wife often translates my English into plain one.
As you know, I cannot see who reads my articles written in English.
I don't know other readers' levels of English comprehension. In addition
what I write here in these news groups is often misunderstood although
I am not sure of whether it is an intentional misunderstanding or not.
Thus I have to "routinely" question the same thing to native English
speakers. Can you understand my English, gary? ;-)
>How about the Japanese? Do Japanese know Japanese? This is a sincere
>question, because I've encountered many instances when Japanese have
>seemed ignorant of Japanese words.
Easy comparison of English with Japanese will result in nothing, gary.
I know very well that is one of your easy ways by which you criticise
Japanese people. But at the same time I know very well that you as
usual fail to judge Japanese, gary. ;-)
First, contemporary Japanese language consists of many Chinese
letters that require our memorisation (and a huge variety of compound
Kanji words), and hiragana/katakana letters. English has ONLY 26
alphabets! Oh, a piece of cake! In addition Japanese people who
complete the whole course at High School memorise 3,000-4,000
English words. I have once heard that Jack and Betty cannot read
even TOWENTY SIX alphabets. ;-)
Second, one's vocabulary is directly associated with one's life, jobs,
hobbies, community that one has been involved. For example, a
carpenter knows their jargons more than lay men know. The names
of car tools that gary took examples should be too special to be
memorised. And any vocabulary related to any vocation is ever
increasing and some have been extinct day by day. Words are
like human life.
>For example, the other day I was talking to a group of Japanese adults
>about a nearby empty lot. I wanted to use the word "barbed wire", but
>of course I didn't know this word in Japanese. So I tried describing it
>like, "toge no tsuita harigane", and I even made a little drawing of a
>barbed wire fence. Everyone then knew what I was talking about. But
>not one person could tell me the Japanese word for that thing; they just
>looked around to each other and repeated, "are, nan to yuu no?"
Gary should have not been surprised at the Japanese ignorance
of the Japanese equavelent of "barbed wire." "Yuushi-tessen" has
been not used for the latest decade, because it is very dangerous.
When someone like landowners puts the wire in his/her lot and
neighbour children are hurt by that, the children's parents may bring
a file to a district court for monetary compensation. I don't say you
made a story, but we rarely observe such a dangerous wire for a long
time. Where did you see the wire in Kyushu, gary?
Thus ordinary people don't need to memorise such a useless word
to them. Of course workers involved with barbed wire know the name
of the word.
>Finally, someone else came by, overheard our discussion, and informed
>everyone that it is called "yuushitessen". She seemed quite pleased
>with herself, knowing this word.
So what?
>One other time, the hinge on a door was loose, so I tightened it back up
>with a screwdriver. Afterwards, I told someone that I had fixed the
>door. I didn't know what a hinge is called in Japanese, so I pointed to
>it and asked. Again, I was met with silence. After asking around to
>some more people, I discovered not one Japanese person knew what it is
>called. Sometime later when I was at the hardware store, I was told
>they are called "choutsugai". The ones in your eyeglasses are called
>"chouban". The optometrist who told me this wasn't sure, and had to
>first look the word up in some kind of a trade manual.
"Choutsugai" and "chouban" would be the same. The former is
pronounced in the Japanese way ("kun-yomi"). "Chou" refers to a
butterfly and "tsugai" to a pair. So the figure of "choutsugai" is very
much like a pair of butterflies. On the other hand, the latter is pronounced
by using the Chinese style reading of the character ("on-yomi").
>Here are some other items whose Japanese names I've had trouble
>uncovering when I've asked Japanese people:
>
>pylon
If pylon is associated with the English film "Among Giants,"
it is called "tettou."
>plunger
I don't know.
>rivet
It would be "byou."
>buckle (as on a belt)
"Tomegane" or "bijou"?
>clipboard
"Kami basami."
>rake (the garden tool)
I know that. "Kumade." A person like a "kumade" means
a greedy one.
>tongs
I don't know.
>spatula
"Hera." School kids use that kind of tool.
>filament (in a light bulb)
"Firamento."
>snap (the fastener)
"fasuna."
>appendix (the vestigial organ) [or even "vestigial", for that matter]
"Mouchou" or "chuushui."
>washer (the faucet kind)
"Jaguchi."
>socket wrench
I don't know.
>practically any auto part: muffler, radiator, axle, spark plug, et al.
>I've met some Japanese who don't even know the words for "hood" and
>"trunk"; they say "mae" ("front") and "ushiro" ("back").
I don't know those words because I am not interested in cars.
I have no driver's licence.
>By now, Scott and Akira are probably all set to jump on my butt and say
>I'm overgeneralizing again.
No. You are not overgeneralising. You are just walking along in the wrong
street. But you are not aware of it yet.
>But I'm not. I've not yet concluded that
>many Japanese are unfamiliar with the names of everyday objects.
You've not yet concluded? Why not, gary? It is very easy for you to
conclude. The reason why many Japanese are unfamiliar with the
names is mainly that what you regard as everyday objects is not
what the people do NOT regard as everyday objects.
>I'm
>putting the question to all of you: Is this ignorance typical of
>Japanese all over Japan, or only my small circle down here in Kyushu?
>Won't you ask around for me? Just point to the rivet in your jeans, the
>hinge in your glasses, the buckle on your belt, the exhaust pipe on your
>car, and ask some Japanese friends, "kore, nihongo de nan to yuu no?"
>Share your results.
There are words that Japanese people are familiar with and other
words that they are unfamiliar with. What you attempted doing is all
to make sure of what must be expected by anyone except you, gary.
Gokurou san deshita.
Masayuki YOSHIDA
Annie
> Kenji Adzuma wrote:
> >
> > In article <37591BD9...@pop21.odn.ne.jp>, gary
> > <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
> >
> > > One other time, the hinge on a door was loose, so I tightened it back up
> > > with a screwdriver. Afterwards, I told someone that I had fixed the
> > > door. I didn't know what a hinge is called in Japanese, so I pointed to
> > > it and asked. Again, I was met with silence. After asking around to
> > > some more people, I discovered not one Japanese person knew what it is
> > > called. Sometime later when I was at the hardware store, I was told
> > > they are called "choutsugai".
> >
> > Well, a door hinge is usually called "kaname."
>
> You sure about this one? My dictionary says kaname 要 is "rivet" or
> "pivot". No mention of "hinge". Do most Japanese know the word
> "kaname"?
'Kaname' means 'the most imiportant point'.
I call a hinge 'choutugai'. I've never heard it called 'kaname'. Maybe
in some area (maybe dialect) it is called 'kaname.', I guess.
> > > plunger
> >
> > This one is somehow called "pisuton" (piston) in Japanese.
>
> I meant the rubber suction cup on a handle used to unclog toilets. Are
> you an engineer and not a janitor, Kenji?
I can't understand what 'plunger' is.....
Is it 'raba^ kappu' to let water and paper etc. run through a pipe when
it is clogged?
>
> > > clipboard
> >
> > "keiji ban" (display board). Not exact, but close enough.
>
> You can hold a keiji ban in your hands?
What is clipboard? My dictionary has not index of 'clipboard'.
'Clipboard' that I know is used in my PC, when I co copy&paste or
cut&paste.
Is it something like a board for 'kairan ban'? If so, it is 'kami
basami'.
> > > spatula
> >
> > "(yaku you) saji" (spoon to measure drug)
>
> You must make some killer pancakes, Kenji. Spatula is called "taana"
> ("turner") in Japan. You flip pancakes and hamburgers with it. Do
> chemists have a thing called "spatula" too?
I call the "turner" 'furai gaeshi'.
'furai'- fry
'gaeshi'- kaesu of 'hikkuri kaesu'.
BTW, what is the name of 'otamajakushi' in English?
>
> > > snap (the fastener)
> >
> > "tomegane"
>
> Snaps like those used in place of buttons on clothing? I thought
> "tomegane" was for things like jewelry clasps.
Maybe 'sunappu'.
> > > washer (the faucet kind)
> >
> > "wasshaa"
>
> I thought it was "pakkin" ("packing").
What is 'washer'?
'Wassha^' is usually made from metal and used with bolts and nuts.
'Pakkin' is usually made from rubber.
The usage of specialist may different, but I'm not a specialist.
--
Annie
<ann...@gol.com>
Jani Patokallio
> Refer to the original post. He mentioned people who don't know words like
> but he's saying people don't know these words.
I'm still not entirely convinced that this is the case, but in a way I'm
not surprised. How many gairaigo words have entered the language in
the past 50 years? Given that for a Japanese speaker who doesn't speak
English all such words are meaningless snippets of gibberish, I would
expect the less common imports to be easily forgotten or unknown. And
yes, I do think that things like barbed wire, plungers, pylons and
even car hoods are less commonly used words.
> And when did car trunks and and barbed wire enter the English language?
> 'Trunk', 'wire', 'barb' and 'hinge' are all old, simple concepts which
> would be represented in the language of any culture advanced enough to
> have furniture. They were taken and applied to a new use.
And generally speaking Japanese does *not* take old words and apply them
to new uses. See below.
As an aside, "hinge" is actually rather interesting, as the English
word denotes a rather wide range of things. In Finnish, I would use
different words for a door hinge, an eyeglass hinge and a hinge in
carpentry. Japanese probably has a yamatokotoba term for the third one in
the list (although I have no idea what it is), and I'd be surprised if you
could use it for the other meanings.
> > Viewed from this point, Japanese is not particularly odd. At one extreme,
> > China has kept its languages very "pure" by deriving new meaning-based
> > compounds for almost all new concept. At the other extreme, English
> > prefers to create its new words by either synthesizing them from
> > Greek and Latin (eg. television, vocabulary, synthesis)
>
> How is this different from what the Chinese do? (Genuine question.)
Chinese compound words are made from Chinese parts, so their meanings
are often obvious, whereas English uses Latin and Greek and ends up
with abstruse methodological pseudoneurohermeneutics (as opposed to
hard way-like false-mind-message-study-methods).
> > or reassigning
> > additional meanings to existing words (eg. computer, network, protocol).
>
> They're not really additional meanings. They're the same (or an almost
> identical) meaning in a new context.
Are you seriously suggesting that a person who moves beads in an abacus
is "almost identical" to a modern central processing unit, or that a
web of such machines connected together is "almost identical" to
a device used to catch fish? Come on. The meaning is new, although it
does retain a link to its original meaning.
But, again, Japanese doesn't do this. Computer networks are konpyuutaa
nettowaaku, not dentakki no ami.
> > Also, the huge amount of words in English is largely due to the fact that
> > in addition to its Old English base (the equivalent of yamatokotoba)
> > English has imported amazing amounts of vocabulary mainly from various
> > Germanic and Romance languages,
>
> As has Japanese, from Chinese languages.
But not to the same extent. Usually the Chinese compound either has
no equivalent (and is used exclusively) or the Japanese word is preferred
(relegating the Chinese version for scientific tracts). English, on the
other hand, has a tendency to import everything but give all words
slightly different meanings.
Consider the humble Anglo-Saxon cow. In Japan, you can use the
yamatokotoba ushi to refer to the animal, whereas most cow-related things
are gyuu-something (meat = gyuuniku, milk = gyuunyuu, etc). In English,
cow meat is referred to as beef (= French boeuf), cowlike things are bovine
(= Latin bovinus), a number of cows together are cattle (= Old French
catel), cow skin is leather if worn or rind eaten (= High German leder
and rinda), etc. In each case the actual word root is different.
Cheers,
-j.
J i r o D o k e h
: J i r o D o k e h wrote:
:>
:> Yes, I can understand what you mean. As a Japanese, I notice that
:> many Japanese may be ignorant about certain words like the ones
:> you mentions, which are specific nouns of parts of things.
:> As I was learning English, I noticed English has far more vocabulary
:> than Japanese. There seems to be a word for almost everything.
:> Sometimes, I can't find an equivalent word in Japanese. They just
:> turn out to be English or foreign words said in a Japanese way,
:> such as TEREBI, RAJIO, CONPYU-TA-, etc. I've heard of some technical
:> Japanese words for these, but a typical Japanese would not know
:> that.
:> As for words like "buckle", "rivet", "hood", "trunk", I think most Japanese
:> might just use "BAKKURU", "RIBETTO", "HU-DO", "TORANKU" for them.
:> As you know, Japanese uses A LOT of foreign words as it is.
:>
:> From the fact that Enlish is more vocabulary oriented, you may
:> learn words like "lithium" naturally, but Japanese don't learn
:> that naturally.
: But why do you think this is so? I don't remember ever "learning" the
: word "barbed wire" in school -- it's just one of those words you acquire
: unconsciously as you grow up listening and reading. Would a Japanese TV
: newscast or movie or novel use the word "yuushitessen"?
:
I have a theory (my theory). It has to do with the educational system.
I went to school in Japan till 2nd grade (and high school), and the
rest was in the States. My theory is based on the fact that English
is more vocab-oriented. In the States, you learn your alphabet by
1st grade, or maybe kindergarten? After that, you go into vocabularies.
Teachers hold out pictures of things, and kids learn to associate words
to that picture. In Japan, we learn our hiragana and katakana by
1st grade. But after that, we have thousands of kanji to master in
the next years. As we learn the kanji, we learn jukugo (like vocab)
but we probably won't go into different vocabulary, simply because
of lack of time. We just learn the basic vocabularies. I certainly
don't remember doing a vocabulary test, but remember a lot of kanji
tests. Being brought up in an educational system like that, you'll
see how one society will be more vocabulary oriented than the other.
This in turn may make you think that Japanese are ignorant about
a lot of words. Of course, news casters will know all those words,
because that's their job. But when people hear those words, they
may not try to register them and try to make that part of their
vocabulary. They may just let that pass by them, as long as they
get the idea of the meaning.
Now, I could swear I was shown a picture of "barbed wire" in school
here in the States....
: This is an interesting observation. Have you ever noticed that Japanese
: cookbooks almost always have illustrations accompanying each step of a
: recipe? But that's not the case with US/UK cookbooks; usually a recipe
: consists of text only. And oftentimes, even the finished dish is not
: depicted, only its name.
Another thing I found interesting, was the comics in the States and
manga in Japan. I pick up a comic like Superman in the States, and
the pages are filled with dialog. It takes minutes to go through
one page, whereas in a manga, there are fewer dialog and more emphasis
on picture.
jiro
--
Jiro Dokeh
Georgia Institute of Technology, Mechanical Engineering
gt2...@prism.gatech.edu
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gt2527a/
Fabian
Doug Wickstrom wrote in message
<3767501a...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>...
>On Sun, 6 Jun 1999 10:53:36 +0100, "Fabian"
><rhi...@chikyuujin.earthling.net> caught my attention by saying:
>
>>I think this problem of loan words cuts
>>both ways. Does anyone know what the
>>English word (as opposed to the
>>word borrowed from the original language) is
>>for any of the following:
>
>
>Glaive.
That was a loan word from Old French, according to the OED. Although
strangely, OED gives the meaning as 'a sword', or more specifically, a
'broadsword', which doesn't seem to match either my idea of what a naginata
is, or my medieval weapons reference. Could teh almighty OED have made a
booboo?
I have a book on medieval weaponry, but it is currently 200 miles from here,
so i can't be certain, but I think the two weapons were different in any
case. Superficially, they were both pointy metal bits on a long wooden
pole, but I believe the balance, curvature and other vital statistics, and
possibly also the style in whcih they were used, were all different. From a
modern perspective, teh distinction may not be important, but it was then.
Which is why Europeans had over a dozen different words to describe the
various kinds of 'pole arms'.
voulge, guisarme, glaive, bardiche, spetum, trident, pike, awl, lance,
bec-de-corbin, lucern hammer, ranseur, military fork, spear, javelin,
halberd.
Eskimos and words for snow? Eat your heart out. And then a fair number of
words describing variations of the above. Of course, that was without
looking them up. They are part of my common vocabulary. More certainly
exist.
jpa...@my-deja.com
>I agree. I asked my friend the other day what 'sink' was in Japanese
and she didn't know. Likewise 'tap'. But on the other hand, some
adjectives in Japanese are difficult to render into english.
Natsukashi
Kuyashii
Oshii
Yabai
etc etc
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Jeff Schrepfer
'head' as in 'atama.' Kata can have many meanings but my suggestion
would be 'shoulder' so that katatsumuri refers to an animal that is made
up of only a head and shoulders. Or it could be 'shape' meaning the
'shape of a head.' I like the head and shoulder possibility better.
Jeff
Mike Wright wrote:
>
> Jim Breen wrote:
> [...]
> > Dendenmushi is news to me. I see in my big Kodansha that it's
> > associated with the normal katatsumuri kanji. Here is the entry:
> >
> > 蝸牛 [でんでんむし] ★ 《「出よ出よ」に由来》→カタツムリの俗称。
>
> "Katatsumuri" looks like a nice long word that ought to have recognizable
> components, but I can't find any way to break it down--no "katatsu", no
> "tsumuri/tsumuru" in my dictionaries. Any info on where it came from? The kanji
> is from the Chinese word, and the "ushi" obviously refers to the snail's
> "horns", but it doesn't seem to relate to the kunyomi in any regular way.
>
> > This raises another question: what on earth is 「出よ出よ」?
>
> I believe that it is a line from the Calypso song, _The Banana Boat Song_, made
> famous in the late '50s by Harry Belafonte. Obviously the innocuous snail is
> being contrasted with the "deadly black tarantula".
>
> BTW, my Sanseido's J-E dictionary has both "katatsumuri" and "denden" in
> hiragana, with "mushi" in kanji.
>
> --
> Mike Wright
> http://www.mbay.net/~darwin/language.html
> _____________________________________________________
> "China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese."
> -- Charles de Gaulle
--
=[]= You have received a message from:
||
|| ________________
__||__ | |
/ || \ | Jeff Schrepfer |
\ / |________________|
/ () \
/ __ \
\ / Email: Je...@Schrepfer.com
\______/ Homepage: http://www.Schrepfer.com
Jeff Schrepfer
Jim Breen wrote:
> Do you have the kanji for "tome kanagu"? I can't identify them
> positively enough.
留め金具 or 止め金具
Jeff Schrepfer
gary wrote:
> Yes, expressions like this annoy me to no end. They sound
> so...babyish. I refuse to use them. I've heard mothers tell their
> children to hand something over to a third person by saying, "hai shite"
> ("do 'yes'"). Actually, it's a long, drawn out "haaaaaaaaai shite".
> Makes me shiver when I hear it.
I met a lot of foreigners in Japan who, like you, were driven by this
kind of cultural arrogance. They were the most annoying sons of bitches
to be around both for Japanese and for other more level-headed
foreigners. It is this arrogance that drives you to claim that Japanese
don't speak Japanese just because they don't happen to know a few
vocabulary words that you claim should be common knowledge to all human
beings regardless of their culture or history. That's also why you get
annoyed at harmless phrases like 'chin shiteoite.' or 'hai shite.' I
don't suppose you would have similar problems with English speakers
saying 'I'll give you a ring later.' or 'Did someone beep me?' or 'Let's
go bye-bye.' to a child.
I have a suggestion that might be a more accurate test of vocabulary
knowledge than picking out a few culturally loaded items and asking a
few people if they know what it is called. Pick up a Japanese dictionary
and start reading words to them at random and see if they know what they
mean. No, don't pick out words like seikou where you would almost have
to have the kanji or some context to know what they mean but try to
choose the most obscure, difficult, words you can find. Now do the same
with an English dictionary and an American. You'll be amazed at how many
vocabulary words Japanese can understand compared with Americans.
Jeff
> --gary
Fabian
Prince Richard Kaminski wrote in message ...
>> khopesh
>
>what that?
Its an ancient Egyptian sword, notable for having the blade straight for
half the length, and towards the tip it has a concave curve. It is also only
sharp on one side (the inside of the curve). Don't ask what it is doing in
my regular vocabulary.
>> panda
>
>police car
Well...
>> naginata
>
>what that?
And you call yourself a Japanophile. tsk tsk tsk.
>> yashmak
>
>what that?
face hiding thingy, as modelled by Gary's harem. Depending on the style, it
can either hide all but the eyes, or pretend to hide all but the eyes.
Jeff Schrepfer
Jeff
BDunn
> >
> > "(yaku you) saji" (spoon to measure drug)
>
> You must make some killer pancakes, Kenji. Spatula is called "taana"
> ("turner") in Japan. You flip pancakes and hamburgers with it. Do
> chemists have a thing called "spatula" too?
>
To me, a spatula has always been what one uses to ice cakes or to get all of
the batter out of a bowl, etc. But then again, I can't recall the word for
'turner,' so maybe spatula means both. I guess it depends on where your
from -- I go to the toilet, not the john or head 8-]}.
Brian Dunn
bd...@netmagic.net
Jeff Schrepfer
Biku wrote:
> As for the tools and stuff, well I think that there is
> much more of a 'do it yourself " attitude in , for
> example, North America. So again it is in a way
> a cultural thing.
Yes, I agree this has much to do with people not knowing the word for
hinge. When I was living in Tokyo, I once broke the 's' shaped pipe
under my bathroom sink. I though, "I'll just run to the hardware store
and get a new one." I went to the hardware store and asked the guy where
his pipes were. He gave me a rather confused look so I explained to him
what had happened and what the part was that I was looking for. He said
"a- sore iu no ha oite nai desu ne-." So I asked where I could find one
and he said "senmonka ja nai to nainjanai desu ka." Then I asked him how
people fix things if you can't get the parts to do so. His response was
that "Japanese don't fix things like that themselves." He's right.
Similarly, on my first trip to Japan, I and my (Japanese) girlfriend
were picked up at the airport by her girlfriend and the girlfriend's
boyfriend. He was in his early 20s, attending Waseda and relatively well
educated. The car, of course, belonged to him. We had a flat tire on the
way home and he had no idea how to even change a tire. How many young
men in the US don't know how to change a tire? Very few I would bet.
Anyway, the point is, Japanese just aren't do-it-yourselfers in the same
way that Americans are. If something goes wrong they would either throw
the item away and buy a new one or call a 'senmonka' to help them.
Jeff
Anthony J. Bryant
>
> > Are you sure you didn't learn this word from the label of your medicine?
>
> That deserves TWO zabuton!
Yamada-kun, zabuton ni-mai agenasai!
Tony
BDunn
> weren't invented when the auto was, but had already existed.
> A "muffler" muffle's sound (a muffler is also something you
> wear when it is cold). A radiator is a style of heater used in older
> apartments. Etc.
I laughed the first time I heard 'mafuraa,' but that's just because I have
always known them as 'scarves.' I think they call them mufflers somewhere
else in the world, or at least they used to.
Brian Dunn
bd...@netmagic.net
BDunn
> Do they still do that with the zabuton? I remember it from the early
> 80s, but not from the early 90s.
>
Is a 'zabuton' the big thing that looks like a paper fan that you use to
whack someone on the head with? If that's it, I have seen it quite a few
times on Guru Guru 99 and Mecha Mecha Iketeru.
Brian Dunn
bd...@netmagic.net
Jeff Schrepfer
the floor. In rakugo, when someone tells a good joke, they get a
zabuton. The more zabuton they pile up to sit on the higher they sit.
Jeff
--
BDunn
> > 1st grade. But after that, we have thousands of kanji to master in
> > the next years.
>
But look what good it does. With only 26 letters in the alphabet and a
spell checker, people still can't spell. I am surprised at some of the
mistakes made by people on their own personal websites, professional
websites, and even on the newsgroups here.
Prince Richard Kaminski
BDunn <bd...@netmagic.net> wrote in message
news:92870026...@news.remarQ.com...
> But look what good it does. With only 26 letters in the alphabet and a
> spell checker, people still can't spell. I am surprised at some of the
> mistakes made by people on their own personal websites, professional
> websites, and even on the newsgroups here.
I saw a "it's/its" mistake on the Web site of a famous novelist the other
day. To be fair, I don't think he did the Website himself, but even so ...
Shimpei Yamashita
>Fabian <rhi...@chikyuujin.earthling.net> wrote in message
>the
>> English word (as opposed to the word borrowed from the original language)
>is
>> for any of the following:
>Japanese traditional dress
ROTFL! Right. And futon is "Japanese blanket." Now, what is the English
term for what Westerners typically call "kimono" that is anything but
a real Japanese kimono?
>
>> pyjamas
>
>night attire
You sleep in your tuxedo?
--
Shimpei Yamashita <http://www.submm.caltech.edu/%7Eshimpei/>
Prince Richard Kaminski
Shimpei Yamashita <shimpei+usen...@BOFH.submm.caltech.edu> wrote in
message news:7jeqlq$pct$1...@son-of-bofh.net...
> Prince Richard Kaminski <dobun...@hotmail.com> writes:
> >Fabian <rhi...@chikyuujin.earthling.net> wrote in message
> >> I think this problem of loan words cuts both ways. Does anyone know
what
> >the
> >> English word (as opposed to the word borrowed from the original
language)
> >is
> >> for any of the following:
> >> kimono
> >Japanese traditional dress
>
> ROTFL! Right. And futon is "Japanese blanket." Now, what is the English
> term for what Westerners typically call "kimono" that is anything but
> a real Japanese kimono?
You mean yukata? That would be "light and informal traditional Japanese
dress".
Kenji Adzuma
<gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
> Kenji Adzuma wrote:
> >
> > In article <37591BD9...@pop21.odn.ne.jp>, gary
> > <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
> >
> > > One other time, the hinge on a door was loose, so I tightened it back up
> > > with a screwdriver. Afterwards, I told someone that I had fixed the
> > > door. I didn't know what a hinge is called in Japanese, so I pointed to
> > > it and asked. Again, I was met with silence. After asking around to
> > > some more people, I discovered not one Japanese person knew what it is
> > > called. Sometime later when I was at the hardware store, I was told
> > > they are called "choutsugai".
> > Well, a door hinge is usually called "kaname."
>
> You sure about this one? My dictionary says kaname 要 is "rivet" or
> "pivot". No mention of "hinge".
I'm definitely losing my confidence in Japanese, but as far as I remember,
I was using "kaname" to refer to a door hinge, as in "kaname wo naosu
(repair a door hinge)." "Choutsugai" doesn't sound colloquial to me.
> Do most Japanese know the word "kaname"?
I don't know. Perhaps my usage might be a regional one, because "kaname"
is a pretty generic word which can mean various things.
> > > Here are some other items whose Japanese names I've had trouble
> > > uncovering when I've asked Japanese people:
> > >
> > > pylon
> >
> > "(ookina) mon" isn't it?
>
> "big thing"? "big problem"?
Which "pylon" are you talking about? The only English word "pylon" I know
of is a big gate, like the one in front of a castle. I thought that's
what you meant.
> > > plunger
> >
> > This one is somehow called "pisuton" (piston) in Japanese.
>
> I meant the rubber suction cup on a handle used to unclog toilets.
I used to be calling that thing "shupa shupa" based on the noise the
plunger makes when its sucking.
> Are you an engineer and not a janitor, Kenji?
I am both at the same time.
> > > clipboard
> >
> > "keiji ban" (display board). Not exact, but close enough.
>
> You can hold a keiji ban in your hands?
Yeah I guess so, if it's small enough (or if you are macho enough).
> > > spatula
> >
> > "(yaku you) saji" (spoon to measure drug)
>
> You must make some killer pancakes, Kenji. Spatula is called "taana"
> ("turner") in Japan. You flip pancakes and hamburgers with it. Do
> chemists have a thing called "spatula" too?
To me, spatula is the thing used to measure chemicals on a balance. We
never made pancakes at home, so I didn't know that thing was also called
spatula.
> > > snap (the fastener)
> >
> > "tomegane"
>
> Snaps like those used in place of buttons on clothing?
...like the ones on women's bras 20 years ago, right.
> I thought
> "tomegane" was for things like jewelry clasps.
Well, you may be right. I just called my mother in Japan yesterday. She
told me the snap was called "hokku." Sounds like it originated from
"hook."
> > > appendix (the vestigial organ) [or even "vestigial", for that matter]
> >
> > no idea
>
> Your kidding. Ordinary Japanese not knowing this word, I can
> understand. But you, Kenji, are on the smart side. Have you just
> forgotten Japanese words, having lived in the US so long?
I know what the "appendix" means in (American) English, but yes I simply
forgot the Japanese word. The problem is that I don't use Japanese any
more (only about once a week) even at home. If someone mentions a
Japanese word, I know the word, but it just doesn't come out
spontaneously.
> > > washer (the faucet kind)
> >
> > "wasshaa"
>
> I thought it was "pakkin" ("packing").
Yeah, I've heard of it. You must be right.
> > > practically any auto part: muffler, radiator, axle, spark plug, et al.
> > > I've met some Japanese who don't even know the words for "hood" and
> > > "trunk"; they say "mae" ("front") and "ushiro" ("back").
> >
> > I think the "hood" is called "bon netto" in Japanese. I don't know where
> > "bon netto" originated from, though.
>
> Bonnet is from UK English. Funny, in Japanese it's the UK "bonetto" for
> the front, but the US "toranku" for the back.
--
Kenji Adzuma
Don Kirkman
<375A2C64...@pop21.odn.ne.jp>:
>Kenji Adzuma wrote:
>> In article <37591BD9...@pop21.odn.ne.jp>, gary
>> <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
>> Well, a door hinge is usually called "kaname."
>You sure about this one? My dictionary says kaname $BMW!! (Bis "rivet" or
>"pivot". No mention of "hinge". Do most Japanese know the word
>"kaname"?
>> > Here are some other items whose Japanese names I've had trouble
>> > uncovering when I've asked Japanese people:
A lot may hinge on getting the correct answer here. :-)
>> > pylon
>> "(ookina) mon" isn't it?
>"big thing"? "big problem"?
A pylon is a marker to guide or control traffic. It may range from
something almost as small as a traffic cone (are they in Japan yet?
temporary things about 1 meter high to temporarily stop or detour
traffic) to small towers that used to be used for airplane races in the
good old days before WW II. The origin was in the Greek for 'gate.'
--
Don
Don Kirkman
<Ogt63.584$69.2...@news.clear.net.nz>:
>BDunn wrote in message <92865029...@news.remarQ.com>...
>>> >>> spatula
>>> >>"(yaku you) saji" (spoon to measure drug)
>>> Is that really what a spatula is??
>>Didn't anybody bother to look it up in a dictionary? It's 'hera,' and even
>>my wife uses that word.
>In the laboratory, " $B%9%Q%A%e%i (B supachura" is a long-handled shallow spoon
>which is used to scoop chemicals.
Now you've gone and complicated things, Lei. :-) In common US usage a
spatula is a longish flat-bladed kitchen tool used mostly for spreading
things (like icing on a cake) or sometimes for scraping the sides of a
dish or a pan.
--
Don
Don Kirkman
<1dt0067.1vk...@tc-1-193.kyoto.gol.ne.jp>:
>gary <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
>> Kenji Adzuma wrote:
>> > In article <37591BD9...@pop21.odn.ne.jp>, gary
>> > <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
[This part has come unhinged]
>> > > plunger
>> > This one is somehow called "pisuton" (piston) in Japanese.
>> I meant the rubber suction cup on a handle used to unclog toilets. Are
>> you an engineer and not a janitor, Kenji?
>I can't understand what 'plunger' is.....
>Is it 'raba^ kappu' to let water and paper etc. run through a pipe when
>it is clogged?
Offhand, I can think of four common US meanings:
A drain unclogger (a rubber cup, as Annie says, on the end of a handle)
to clear pipes (aka a 'plumber's friend')
A piston within a hand pump or sprayer mechanism
A switch/handle mechanism to detonate explosives (commonly shaped like a
type of pump handle)
A person who takes big-money high risk stock market adventures (and
sometimes the market plunges)
--
Don
Kenji Adzuma
ann...@gol.com (Annie) wrote:
> BTW, what is the name of 'otamajakushi' in English?
I think (soap) scoop will do it.
--
Kenji Adzuma
Don Kirkman
article <qOr63.916$pl3....@newreader.ukcore.bt.net>:
>Mike Wright <dar...@mbay.net> wrote in message
>news:375A2962...@mbay.net...
>> "Katatsumuri" looks like a nice long word that ought to have recognizable
>> components, but I can't find any way to break it down--no "katatsu", no
>> "tsumuri/tsumuru" in my dictionaries. Any info on where it came from?
>Tsumuri means "head", and is written with the "atama" kanji, but I think
>it's a rare/antiquated word. Kata of course from "katai" = "hard head".
Just because 'tsumuri' is an old folks' word don't upset me, Bart, and
others by calling it antiquated.
But 'tsumuru-' = 'tsuburu,' so a snail is an animal that shuts down on
one side, ne? :-)
--
Don
Don Kirkman
<92866654...@estelle.paradise.net.nz>:
>gary <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote in message
>news:37591BD9...@pop21.odn.ne.jp...
><snip>
>> Gentlemen, ....
>Are you seriously excluding a half of the world population?
Do you seriously think 'gentlemen' are 100% of the male population?
>>..............this may come as a shock to both of you, but we native
>> English speakers know English. We don't have to strain to understand
>> it.
>Those "gentlemen" might agree but I'm not one and I won't agree.
[...]
>My point is that no native speaker of Japanese or English (or of any
>language) knows 100% of the vocabulary. Average individual, I should
>imagine, would know probably less than a third of the vocabulary included in
>a reputable middle size dictionary (such as Oxford or Koojien by Iwanami).
>And to become a good user of your own language, you have to work hard to
>polish your style and enrich your vocabulary. Very far from "don't have to
>strain to understand it".
I think you illustrate the point that *working vocabulary* is
contextual; just because words exists for things it's not reasonable to
expect every native speaker to know all the words for things that are
outside their daily experience.
--
Don
Don Kirkman
<7jcejq$u4u$1...@towncrier.cc.monash.edu.au>:
>In sci.lang.japan Prince Richard Kaminski <dobun...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>Kenji Adzuma <adz...@rockvax.rockefeller.edu> wrote in message
>>>news:adzuma-0506...@3tsh3-mac.rockefeller.edu...
>>>> In article <jKf63.723$pl3....@newreader.ukcore.bt.net>, "Prince Richard
>>>> Kaminski" <dobun...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > Kenji Adzuma <adz...@rockvax.rockefeller.edu> wrote in message
>>>> > news:adzuma-0506...@3tsh3-mac.rockefeller.edu...
>>>> > > OK, fair enough, but try this. What do call "den den mushi" in
>>>English?
>>>> > Snail?
[...]
>Dendenmushi is news to me. I see in my big Kodansha that it's
>associated with the normal katatsumuri kanji. Here is the entry:
> $Biw5m (B [ $B$G$s$G$s$`$7 (B] $B!z (B $B!T!V=P$h=P$h!W$KM3Mh!U"*%+%?%D%`%j$NB/>N!# (B
>This raises another question: what on earth is $B!V=P$h=P$h!W (B?
>This is the only entry in the Kodansha where this word appears.
Come out, come out, wherever you are, all you native speakers. :-)
Or is that the Japanese version of Harry Belafonte's 'Banana Boat Song'?
Day o day o!
--
Don