Japanese court overturns sex slave compensation

MoëbiusStrip

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Mar 29, 2001, 11:29:07 PM3/29/01

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"TOKYO - A judge in Hiroshima ruled Thursday that the Japanese government
doesn't have to compensate two so-called "comfort women" who were forced to
provide sex to Japanese soldiers during the Second World War.

Judge Toshiaki Kawanami turned down an April 1998 ruling by a district court
which would have given the two Korean women the equivalent of $3,819 each.

The women have said that they were forced to provides sex to Japanese soldiers
in Taiwan and Shanghai.

Kawanami said that abducting the women to use them as forced labourers and sex
slaves was not a serious constitutional violation.

The ruling is in keeping with the Japanese government's belief that such claims
were settled by the peace treaties that formally ended the war.

"I hate the Japanese," said an outraged Pak Du-ri, 76, one of the two surviving
women.

Three "comfort women" and seven people who were forced into slave labour by the
Japanese originally filed suit in 1992, seeking $5.04 million in damages and an
official apology from the Japanese government.

The third woman has since died. "

http://cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/view.cgi?category=Canada&story=/news/2001/03/29/
japan_sexslaves010329

william john sowa

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Mar 30, 2001, 1:24:40 AM3/30/01

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In article <nYTw6.479326$f36.15...@news20.bellglobal.com>,
MoëbiusStrip <ab...@msn.com> wrote:

>"TOKYO - A judge in Hiroshima ruled Thursday that the Japanese government
>doesn't have to compensate two so-called "comfort women" who were forced to
>provide sex to Japanese soldiers during the Second World War.

"the Japanese government" that SHOULD HAVE COMPENSATED the women is the
September 1945 Japanese Government that surrendered to the Allied Forces.
In reality, you cannot hold the people of today responsible for the
actions of their ancestors. On the other hand, there should be a PRIVATE
SECTOR of the Japanese population who should be taking up private
collections for these women.

>Judge Toshiaki Kawanami turned down an April 1998 ruling by a district court
>which would have given the two Korean women the equivalent of $3,819 each.

$3819 should have been given to each woman in September 1945, not today.

>Kawanami said that abducting the women to use them as forced labourers and sex
>slaves was not a serious constitutional violation.

Correct. History is saturated with war stories of the rape and pillage of
the conquered territories. The Japanese soldiers of 1945 may have acted
in a hideous criminal intent, but it was not against their
1945 Constitution to "behave a certain way on the battlefield". Again,
the Japanese Government in 1945 should have been forced by the Allies to
pay reparation to the women. 55 years ago is when all this should have
been done. To ask the present day generation to "attempt to fix the
crimes of the past" is a noble, honorable, and dignified action, but *not*
a legal or Constitutional one (again, the time for all this should have
been 1945).

>The ruling is in keeping with the Japanese government's belief that such claims
>were settled by the peace treaties that formally ended the war.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/wwii/j1.htm

FORMAL SURRENDER BY THE SENIOR JAPANESE GROUND,
SEA, AIR AND AUXILIARY FORCES COMMANDS WITHIN
KOREA SOUTH OF 38 NORTH LATITUDE TO THE COM-
MANDING GENERAL, UNITED STATES ARMY FORCES IN
KOREA, FOR AND IN BEHALF OF THE COMMANDER-IN-
CHIEF UNITED STATES ARMY FORCES, PACIFIC

[TEXT OMITTED]

"7. We hereby command the Japanese Imperial Government and the Japanese
Imperial General Headquarters at once to liberate all allied prisoners of
war and civilian internees now under Japanese control and to provide for
their protection, care, maintenance and immediate transportation to places
as directed.

-----------------------

The "providing of protection, care, and maintenance" for victims of rape
and physical degredation *SHOULD HAVE BEEN* a monetary reparation to the
women in 1945.

Basically, the Allies turned a cold shoulder on the Korean women in 1945.
1945 was the time to *DEMAND* reparations. Today, 55 years later, may be
a noble, dignified, and morally right closure to skeletons in the closet,
yet *today it is unconstitutional to demand the present-day generation to
pay for the crimes of their ancestors*; this will be a common plea for all
nations whose ancestors committed horrible crimes. Basically, the
reparation processes of any wars must take place *IMMEDIATELY UPON
SURRENDER BY THE LOSING GOVERNMENT WHO COMMITTED THE CRIMES*. Again, in
this case, it should have been in 1945.

>"I hate the Japanese," said an outraged Pak Du-ri, 76, one of the two surviving
>women.

A completely incorrect and blatantly offensive statement to the majority
of innocent Japanese children and younger generations of today. "I hate
the Japanese of 1945 who did this to me" would be the highly accurate
statement. "I demand that the Japanese people of today publically
acknowledge that they have full understanding and admittance to the
criminal deeds of their ancestors" would have been the most appropriate
statement.

>Three "comfort women" and seven people who were forced into slave labour by the
>Japanese originally filed suit in 1992, seeking $5.04 million in damages and an
>official apology from the Japanese government.

An official apology *FOR ACTIONS OF THE 1945 IMPERIAL JAPANESE MILITARY*
should be emphasized.

Aside from Takeshima and aside from the common degradation of Korean
residents living in Japan, exactly what has the *present-day* Japanese
generation done against Korea or Koreans that warrant such hatred by the
Koreans against *present-day* Japanese?

Here is my prediction:

The Japanese Government will apologize for the actions of their ancestors,
but the Koreans will not accept the apology as "sincere enough" and
continue hating the Japanese, while young Korean youth emulate the
Japanese pop culture and support the Japanese cultural influence on Korea.

In other words: at this point, no Japanese apology to the Korean people
would create even the slightest movement of change to the current
political and emotional stance of the Korean people against Japan.

So, at this point, why even continue to ask for one if the result will
produce null value?

stik 使

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Mar 30, 2001, 3:53:14 AM3/30/01

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"william john sowa" <ws...@login.itd.umich.edu> wrote in message

Obviously, you have no sympathy for the 76 years old Pak Du-ri.
I wonder if you would feel differently if she was your grandmother.

> >Three "comfort women" and seven people who were forced into slave labour
by the
> >Japanese originally filed suit in 1992, seeking $5.04 million in damages
and an
> >official apology from the Japanese government.
>
> An official apology *FOR ACTIONS OF THE 1945 IMPERIAL JAPANESE MILITARY*
> should be emphasized.
>
> Aside from Takeshima and aside from the common degradation of Korean
> residents living in Japan, exactly what has the *present-day* Japanese
> generation done against Korea or Koreans that warrant such hatred by the
> Koreans against *present-day* Japanese?
>
> Here is my prediction:
>
> The Japanese Government will apologize for the actions of their ancestors,
> but the Koreans will not accept the apology as "sincere enough" and
> continue hating the Japanese, while young Korean youth emulate the
> Japanese pop culture and support the Japanese cultural influence on Korea.
>
> In other words: at this point, no Japanese apology to the Korean people
> would create even the slightest movement of change to the current
> political and emotional stance of the Korean people against Japan.
>
> So, at this point, why even continue to ask for one if the result will
> produce null value?

Whatever you say Bill. It is apparent that you do not
believe in learning from the past history.

stik
(x-post to soc.culture.china)

Mikkel Madsen

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Mar 30, 2001, 4:57:11 AM3/30/01

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Hmmm, Japan and the japanese doesn't seem to have the same kind of "national
machochism" in their natioal makeup as the Germans have....

Kaminarikun

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Mar 30, 2001, 10:41:07 AM3/30/01

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Mikkel Madsen wrote:
> Hmmm, Japan and the japanese doesn't seem to have the same kind of "national
> machochism" in their natioal makeup as the Germans have....

Obviously their national mechanism are not the "same" because they had
had
a different postwar agreements. Germany's approach was to compensate
individuals
while Japanese approach was more about state to state compensation. So
what we had
was Germany not making much of state to state compensations while Japan
appearing
more short on the individual side.
We know that Germans too operated brothels during the war, were they
compensated? Just curios.

Ray Dobson

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Mar 30, 2001, 4:13:49 PM3/30/01

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"stik 使" <sti...@leolee.is.village.idiot> wrote:

>"william john sowa" <ws...@login.itd.umich.edu> wrote in message
>> MobiusStrip <ab...@msn.com> wrote:
>> >Judge Toshiaki Kawanami turned down an April 1998 ruling by a district
>court
>> >which would have given the two Korean women the equivalent of $3,819
>each.
>>
>> $3819 should have been given to each woman in September 1945, not today.
>>
>> >Kawanami said that abducting the women to use them as forced labourers
>and sex
>> >slaves was not a serious constitutional violation.

That is correct...according to the Japs. The Japs have an infinite
capacity of minimising their own atrocities such as The Rape of
Nanking, the treatment of POWs during WW2 and the deliberate murder of
160 Gilbertese on Ocean Island 2 days AFTER the Jap surrender and
maximising the actions of others. You have only to see the nauseating
moaning of the Japs that occurs on every anniversary of the dropping
of the A bombs to see this is true.
WRD

Kaminarikun

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Mar 30, 2001, 6:14:07 PM3/30/01

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Ray Dobson wrote:

Dobson, you are a slimy racist. If you think all Japanese are alike
then you must be the dumbest around here.
.

calmar

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Mar 30, 2001, 11:06:26 PM3/30/01

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> We know that Germans too operated brothels during the war.

Sorry i never heard this..could you may give me some links where i could re-
read this? or other sources?

John W.

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Mar 31, 2001, 12:06:50 AM3/31/01

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william john sowa wrote:

> In article <nYTw6.479326$f36.15...@news20.bellglobal.com>,

> Mo�iusStrip <ab...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> >"TOKYO - A judge in Hiroshima ruled Thursday that the Japanese government
> >doesn't have to compensate two so-called "comfort women" who were forced to
> >provide sex to Japanese soldiers during the Second World War.
>
> "the Japanese government" that SHOULD HAVE COMPENSATED the women is the
> September 1945 Japanese Government that surrendered to the Allied Forces.
> In reality, you cannot hold the people of today responsible for the
> actions of their ancestors. On the other hand, there should be a PRIVATE
> SECTOR of the Japanese population who should be taking up private
> collections for these women.
>

I'm pretty sure there is, actually; seems to me some pretty famous people were
involved. I know Kenzaburo Oe is pretty adamant that Japan apologize and such, and I
recall he's involved here as well. But my memory holds things as snuggly as a wet
tissue these days.

>
> >Judge Toshiaki Kawanami turned down an April 1998 ruling by a district court
> >which would have given the two Korean women the equivalent of $3,819 each.
>
> $3819 should have been given to each woman in September 1945, not today.
>

I heard this amount and was really appalled. Maybe it's because in America we'll sue
anyone for just about anything, but it seemed a paltry sum to ask for in exchange
for having been a sex slave.

> The Japanese Government will apologize for the actions of their ancestors,
> but the Koreans will not accept the apology as "sincere enough" and
> continue hating the Japanese, while young Korean youth emulate the
> Japanese pop culture and support the Japanese cultural influence on Korea.
>

True words, because every apology that has come forth from the Japanese government
or imperial family has been deemed insincere.

>
> In other words: at this point, no Japanese apology to the Korean people
> would create even the slightest movement of change to the current
> political and emotional stance of the Korean people against Japan.
>
> So, at this point, why even continue to ask for one if the result will
> produce null value?

My argument in this whole debate has always been that at some point Korea (and other
countries) have to show a willingness to accept Japan's apologies. Not the
government, but the people. Otherwise, the continued animosity will just be a weapon
for the pro-military and history revisionists, sort of a 'We told you so' kind of
thing.

John W.

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Mar 31, 2001, 12:15:09 AM3/31/01

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"stik �" wrote:

Learning from the past is a different issue all together. Learning is different
than demanding compensation. Again, while it doesn't excuse Japan, you can point
at EVERY country in the world and they're guilty of crimes at least as bad as
Japan. When will China start paying up for the crimes against Tibet (which, btw,
is an ongoing issue)? When will the US pay up for the atrocities against blacks
and native Americans? When will... etc. Learning from the past means you don't
make the same mistakes again. Dwelling on the past dooms you to do so.

John W.

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Mar 31, 2001, 12:18:39 AM3/31/01

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Ray Dobson wrote:

Jap... you're obviously an authority on racial understanding and such matters.

So, the US citizens who were involved in nuclear development and contracted and
died of cancer... damn, I'm glad they died, they're moaning was getting on my
damn nerves. Same for those people in the South Pacific where the US tested
nuclear weapons. Wish they'd shut up. Luckilly China's a communist state, or
else we'd have to listen to the Chinese that have died in such experiments as
well.

(In case it isn't obvious, I'm being sarcastic; atrocities are atrocities, and
it doesn't matter who they happen to, it still sucks really, really bad.)

John W.

stik 使

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Mar 31, 2001, 1:14:29 AM3/31/01

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"John W." <worth...@deja.com> wrote in message

> "stik ?" wrote:
> > Whatever you say Bill. It is apparent that you do not
> > believe in learning from the past history.
> >
>
> Learning from the past is a different issue all together. Learning is
different
> than demanding compensation.

Well, $3819 is hardly an issue of compensation.
Do you honestly believe it is all about money?

> Again, while it doesn't excuse Japan,

I guess we agree on something.

> you can point at EVERY country in the world and they're
> guilty of crimes at least as bad as Japan.

Take a back seat and listen to yourself.
If your wife was raped by someone, would
you sit back and drink some beer and say
"well, rape is nothing new"?

> When will China start paying up for the crimes against Tibet (which, btw,
> is an ongoing issue)? When will the US pay up for the atrocities against
> blacks and native Americans?

Well, John, I am glad you are open minded enough
to discuss other crimes -- while your wife is
still struggling over the trauma of being raped.
Good for you.

> When will... etc. Learning from the past
> means you don't make the same mistakes again. Dwelling on the past
> dooms you to do so.

There is a *difference* between dwelling, and attempting
to serve justice. Do you honestly believe hiding it under
the rug will make it go away?

stik

stik 使

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Mar 31, 2001, 1:23:21 AM3/31/01

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"Kaminarikun" <kamin...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message

> Ray Dobson wrote:
> > That is correct...according to the Japs. The Japs have an infinite
> > capacity of minimising their own atrocities such as The Rape of
> > Nanking, the treatment of POWs during WW2 and the deliberate murder of
> > 160 Gilbertese on Ocean Island 2 days AFTER the Jap surrender and
> > maximising the actions of others. You have only to see the nauseating
> > moaning of the Japs that occurs on every anniversary of the dropping
> > of the A bombs to see this is true.
> > WRD
>
> Dobson, you are a slimy racist. If you think all Japanese are alike
> then you must be the dumbest around here.

Dobson, you are a racist. Not all Japanese
are alike. Some are very nice (I've met some nicest
Japanese people), and some are perverted mother fuckers.

stik

Ray Dobson

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Mar 31, 2001, 4:58:45 AM3/31/01

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Kaminarikun <kamin...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> >> >Kawanami said that abducting the women to use them as forced labourers
>> >and sex
>> >> >slaves was not a serious constitutional violation.
>>
>> That is correct...according to the Japs. The Japs have an infinite
>> capacity of minimising their own atrocities such as The Rape of
>> Nanking, the treatment of POWs during WW2 and the deliberate murder of
>> 160 Gilbertese on Ocean Island 2 days AFTER the Jap surrender and
>> maximising the actions of others. You have only to see the nauseating
>> moaning of the Japs that occurs on every anniversary of the dropping
>> of the A bombs to see this is true.
>> WRD
>
>Dobson, you are a slimy racist. If you think all Japanese are alike
>then you must be the dumbest around here.

I have said this before but I'll say it again. Perhaps then it may
penetrate your thick, thick skull.
When you cannot counter another's argument just label him a racist and
Bingo! your problem is solved. The trouble is you have just shown
yourself to be a dumb, dumb twit.
And adding abuse makes you even dumber.
Perhaps you can call the yellow-bellied Japs who brutally murdered 160
Gilbertese islanders members of a civilized race but I can't. And this
was AFTER the war was over. The Gilbertese were completely unarmed
while the brave Japs had machine guns.
WRD

Ray Dobson

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Mar 31, 2001, 5:02:42 AM3/31/01

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"stik 使" <sti...@leolee.is.village.idiot> wrote:

>stik

See my reply to Kaminarikun above. The same applies to you. To me all
Japs are perverted mother fuckers.
WRD

Charley Brown and SNOOPY

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Mar 31, 2001, 7:29:50 AM3/31/01

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Tell us Stik, what did the perverted ones do to you?

"stik 使" <sti...@leolee.is.village.idiot> wrote in message
news:6wFMZna...@news1.sys.netsgo.com...

Tetris

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Mar 31, 2001, 7:48:16 AM3/31/01

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A Hiroshima judge, Kawanami, said that _abducting the women to use

them as forced labourers and sex slaves was not a serious

constitutional violation_.

A court officer who is supposed to protect law and order said that???

Was this in the 1940s? No. It is in year 2001. Who says the new
Japanese generation has changed? The same old crap, the same old
hypocrisy. Nothing has changed.

On Fri, 30 Mar 2001 04:29:07 GMT, "MoëbiusStrip" <ab...@msn.com>
wrote:

min10011

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Mar 31, 2001, 8:29:40 AM3/31/01

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Then you (and like-minded Japanese) will have to accept the PRC's
justifications for its abominable treatment of Tibetans, won't you?

John W. <worth...@deja.com> wrote in message

news:3AC567DD...@deja.com...

min10011

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Mar 31, 2001, 8:29:41 AM3/31/01

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Please distill the point of this for me.

Kaminarikun <kamin...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message

news:3AC4A912...@ix.netcom.com...

min10011

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Mar 31, 2001, 8:29:41 AM3/31/01

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Don't you find it interesting that while Japan, as you believe, has made
sufficiently sincere apologies to their victims of wartime atrocities, that
the Nobel literature laureate Kenzaburo Oe (and other more worldly Japanese)
call for true apologies?

John W. <worth...@deja.com> wrote in message

news:3AC565EA...@deja.com...

min10011

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Mar 31, 2001, 8:29:42 AM3/31/01

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There's so much wrong with what you've said that it shows a lack of
historical knowledge as well as your usual lack of judgment. To see where
this sort of attitude about past injustices leads look at the popularity
today among Japanese youth of Yoshinori Kobayashi and his right-wing manga.

william john sowa <ws...@login.itd.umich.edu> wrote in message

news:IEVw6.178$4K6....@news.itd.umich.edu...

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Mar 31, 2001, 9:46:29 AM3/31/01

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Thank you, but unless you are Kaminarikun, perhaps you'll let him explain
himself what bringing up Germany's operating of wartime brothels has to do
with Japanese sex slaves? Just curious.

Mikkel Madsen <b...@pc.dk> wrote in message
news:9a4oeo$d5$1...@news.inet.tele.dk...

JHL

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Mar 31, 2001, 10:30:41 AM3/31/01

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It was only making some love, Uh?

Ted Bundy
http://www.serialworld.homestead.com/tbundyprof.html

Kaminarikun

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Mar 31, 2001, 10:31:53 AM3/31/01

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Ray Dobson wrote:
> Kaminarikun <kamin...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >> >> >Kawanami said that abducting the women to use them as forced labourers
> >> >and sex
> >> >> >slaves was not a serious constitutional violation.
> >>
> >> That is correct...according to the Japs. The Japs have an infinite
> >> capacity of minimising their own atrocities such as The Rape of
> >> Nanking, the treatment of POWs during WW2 and the deliberate murder of
> >> 160 Gilbertese on Ocean Island 2 days AFTER the Jap surrender and
> >> maximising the actions of others. You have only to see the nauseating
> >> moaning of the Japs that occurs on every anniversary of the dropping
> >> of the A bombs to see this is true.
> >> WRD
> >
> >Dobson, you are a slimy racist. If you think all Japanese are alike
> >then you must be the dumbest around here.
>
> I have said this before but I'll say it again. Perhaps then it may
> penetrate your thick, thick skull.
> When you cannot counter another's argument just label him a racist and
> Bingo! your problem is solved. The trouble is you have just shown
> yourself to be a dumb, dumb twit. And adding abuse makes you even dumber.

You made several remarks, your dumber one got my attention first.
Your stupid line of reasoning is this, if one person from a nation is
bad apple
then all the rest are bad.

> Perhaps you can call the yellow-bellied Japs who brutally murdered 160
> Gilbertese islanders members of a civilized race but I can't. And this
> was AFTER the war was over. The Gilbertese were completely unarmed
> while the brave Japs had machine guns.

Now what is there to argue about when your mind is already made up?
Pray tell? "To me all Japs are perverted mother fuckers." Pray tell?"

Kaminarikun

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Mar 31, 2001, 10:58:57 AM3/31/01

to

I was recalling from a book I read awhile back, maybe
"Let the good times Roll."

Little search produced this.

"Organized and Institutionalized Sexual Exploitation and
Violence
Evidence in British documents from World War II report that SS men
and "top Nazis" were involved in exploiting and abusing women during
their service in the war. Munich-based Party chief Christian Weber was
notorious before the war for his exploitation of women. A German
lieutenant reported seeing a party given by Weber where a naked girl
had been strapped to a roulette wheel and was later found unconscious.
SS Chief Heinrich Himmler, who planned the genocide against the Jews,
was the protector of a cult that met in an eastern German castle for sex
to the high-priestess with the Berlin State Opera. A German plane was
also used as an airborne brothel, and a Norwegian ship as a floating
brothel. The German consul conducted "conspicuous activities" in
Casablanca, Morocco, with local men and boys. (Nazis mixed was with
sex," AFP, 22 July 1998)"
http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/catw/germany.htm

"In 1944, a program of massive kidnappings of blond children was
launched in conquered territories. The blond children were distributed
to peasants in the German countryside to be raised as German children.
The purpose was to create more cannon fodder for their war machine.
During the war, SS intelligence ran massive programs of bank note
forgeries and passport forgeries. They also had a vast chain of
brothels, factories, night clubs, and business corporations to
facilitate
their corruption and espionage."
http://dev.null.org/psychoceramics/archives/1995.12/msg00018.html

And of course there are the Japanese sources, although written by a
German,
Zatora's "Baishun Doseiai Jikokison" According to this author forced
prostitution happened mainly in German occupied Eastern Europe. Where
brothels
were opened in various places stocked with women that have been mainly
forced into it. Also Nuremberg trials goes in to German brothel business
so facts are there except that it's rarely publicized.

Mikkel Madsen

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Mar 31, 2001, 11:17:30 AM3/31/01

to

*sigh* yes, I am his evil twin, hope that floats your boat.....Why is it so
important for you??

Isn't it the exact same thing, just two different places??!!

Mark Peterson

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Mar 31, 2001, 11:18:05 AM3/31/01

to

What? Did Mr. Dobson say "gaijin"?

Mark Peterson

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Mar 31, 2001, 11:21:02 AM3/31/01

to

Two Japanese expressions for "Kaminarichan": Ichi oku Isshin (A hundred million
people, one mind) and Nihonjinron (the study of the unique nature of the
Japanese people. Nobody believes in their racial singularity more than the
Japanese themselves.

Kaminarikun

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Mar 31, 2001, 11:18:15 AM3/31/01

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min10011 wrote:
> Thank you, but unless you are Kaminarikun, perhaps you'll let him explain
> himself what bringing up Germany's operating of wartime brothels has to do
> with Japanese sex slaves? Just curious.

Very simple. There was an issue over Germany's vs Japan's mechanism in
dealing
with the post war compensation, and I happened to remember Germans too
had
had comfort women appearing on their TV to tell how she have
been forced into it. So was just curious about what happened to them.

Mark Peterson

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Mar 31, 2001, 11:23:33 AM3/31/01

to

Well, clearly that little inbred bastard Hirohito, the Godhead of the divine
nation of Japan at the time, should have been hanged and his remains fed to wild
dogs.

Mikkel Madsen

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Mar 31, 2001, 11:30:06 AM3/31/01

to

True, this surfaces every time you discuss WW2: The parallel(s) between
Germany and Japan, on different topics. This discussion "sex slaves" og
"wartime brothels", whichever you call it..... I believe there are many
interesting parallels, both in the similarities and in the differences
between the two countries.

To compare isn't necessarily off-topic!!

Kaminarikun <kamin...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message

news:3AC60346...@ix.netcom.com...

Mikkel Madsen

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Mar 31, 2001, 11:31:39 AM3/31/01

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Mark Peterson <jom...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3AC60482...@hotmail.com...

> Well, clearly that little inbred bastard Hirohito, the Godhead of the
divine
> nation of Japan at the time, should have been hanged and his remains fed
to wild
> dogs.
>

heh heh, USA needed him and Japan, red China and USSR, you know. At that
time realpolitik was king....

Kaminarikun

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Mar 31, 2001, 11:26:33 AM3/31/01

to

Mark Peterson wrote:
> Two Japanese expressions for "Kaminarichan": Ichi oku Isshin (A hundred million
> people, one mind) and Nihonjinron (the study of the unique nature of the
> Japanese people. Nobody believes in their racial singularity more than the
> Japanese themselves.

Which proves?

Kaminarikun

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Mar 31, 2001, 11:31:16 AM3/31/01

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min10011 wrote:
> Please distill the point of this for me.

Which point? If it's about the German brothel business then
it has been explained.

Mark Peterson

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Mar 31, 2001, 11:38:22 AM3/31/01

to

Which suggests that the Japanese like to generalize about themselves almost as much
as Mr. Dobson likes to generalize about them. Wakaranai no ka, Kami-chan?

Kaminarikun

unread,

Mar 31, 2001, 11:35:31 AM3/31/01

to

min10011 wrote:
> Don't you find it interesting that while Japan, as you believe, has made
> sufficiently sincere apologies to their victims of wartime atrocities, that
> the Nobel literature laureate Kenzaburo Oe (and other more worldly Japanese)
> call for true apologies?

In Japan there are people with many different views. so that sort of
remark aren't
surprising. People tend to lump all the Japanese in the same basket but
like most
of you they have different views and tastes.

william john sowa

unread,

Mar 31, 2001, 11:42:34 AM3/31/01

to

In article <2oBygWP...@news1.sys.netsgo.com>,
stik 使 <sti...@korea.com> wrote:

>Obviously, you have no sympathy for the 76 years old Pak Du-ri.
>I wonder if you would feel differently if she was your grandmother.

That is untrue. If I were a present-day Japanese citizen, I would be
publically admitting to the world that the Japanese Imperial army did
hideous and unimaginable acts of violence and torture to its enemies.

However, do you believe that young Japanese children are to blame for
this? Obviously, you have no analysis of responsibility about who caused
these acts of horror and who should have paid the price for them. Are
you, too, simply "ban-IL" across the whole spectrum?

Also, how do you feel about the Yugoslavian women being raped and
tortured? To you, is it not the same because they are not Korean?

>Whatever you say Bill. It is apparent that you do not
>believe in learning from the past history.

Following the legal constitutional law does not change based on emotional
events in history. Law may be changed DUE TO THE IMMEDIATE AFTER-SHOCK of
events, but the law cannot be "changed-on-the-spot" based on something
that occurred 55 years ago. If the Japanese Law needs to be changed to
repair the damages to the Korean people, then it must be legally changed
through the Japanese Diet.

If I were Japanese, I would say, "We need to change our laws."

william john sowa

unread,

Mar 31, 2001, 11:48:08 AM3/31/01

to

In article <Z70Ocia...@news1.sys.netsgo.com>,
stik 使 <sti...@korea.com> wrote:

>Take a back seat and listen to yourself.
>If your wife was raped by someone, would
>you sit back and drink some beer and say
>"well, rape is nothing new"?

No, and that is why * IN 1945 *, they basically should have ceased all
Japanese assets and given a fair share to the Korean people.

55 years later, * you don't track down the ** RELATIVES OF THE RAPIST **
and demand compensation from them. *

Kaminarikun

unread,

Mar 31, 2001, 11:44:35 AM3/31/01

to

Mark Peterson wrote:
> Which suggests that the Japanese like to generalize about themselves almost as much
> as Mr. Dobson likes to generalize about them. Wakaranai no ka, Kami-chan?

That's a proof? You're like this Dobson guy lumping all the Japanese
into
one neat little basket.

william john sowa

unread,

Mar 31, 2001, 11:57:28 AM3/31/01

to

In article <aZkx6.981$4n.6...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com>,

min10011 <min1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>There's so much wrong with what you've said that it shows a lack of
>historical knowledge as well as your usual lack of judgment. To see where
>this sort of attitude about past injustices leads look at the popularity
>today among Japanese youth of Yoshinori Kobayashi and his right-wing manga.

I counter with look at the Jews and the Muslims.

One Hundred Year War ---> One Thousand Year War ---> One Million Year War?

When will it stop? When the PEOPLE settle down and forget about past
atrocities.

The Korean vs. Japanese mentality is, today, stupid. It's a waste of time
and energy. Look at how Germany is making great strides in being
accepted by the European community, when 55 years ago they were killing
everyone in their path. Look how the Soviet Bloc countries were
communist tyrants 11 years ago, but, today, you can drive throughout
Eastern Europe without going through one Soviet Checkpoint.

Furthermore, why do the Koreans still think the world doesn't know what
happened? They do. Are you afraid that future generations will not be
taught what happened? They will.

Enough is enough. Stop.

unread,

Mar 31, 2001, 1:17:17 PM3/31/01

to

Heheh...the sword does cut both ways, doesn't it. Still, this does not
excuse Dobson's poor choice of words nor his apparent biases.

Mark Peterson <jom...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:3AC6033A...@hotmail.com...

Message has been deleted

Kaminarikun

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Mar 31, 2001, 2:40:27 PM3/31/01

to

Tetris wrote:
> A Hiroshima judge, Kawanami, said that _abducting the women to use

> them as forced labourers and sex slaves was not a serious

> constitutional violation_.
> A court officer who is supposed to protect law and order said that???

His ruling doesn't mean that their government can't enact a law
to compensate anyone. He didn't go that far.

Kaminarikun

unread,

Mar 31, 2001, 2:40:09 PM3/31/01

to

min10011 wrote:
> I do agree that there are parallels between Germany and Japan, but it's
> become an over-frequent habit among some to drag Germany as well as the USA,
> China, and other countries into any discussion about JAPANESE war
> atrocities. Why?

You could equally say about why some people prefer to discuss only about
what the Japanese did. Are these people simply dumb or have some sort
of agenda? Smearing the Japanese is some kind of fun and games?
Depending on the circumstances, you might want to point out to such
person that your fathers and mothers or maybe their friends did it too.

Kaminarikun

unread,

Mar 31, 2001, 2:48:39 PM3/31/01

to

min10011 wrote:
> Yes, yes, yes, no one in his right mind lumps all Japanese together. So,
> Kaminarikun, in which camp do you fall with regard to the sincerity of these
> apologies?

Which country are you from?

Ray Dobson

unread,

Mar 31, 2001, 3:50:48 PM3/31/01

to

Kaminarikun <kamin...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>Ray Dobson wrote:
>> >
>> >Dobson, you are a slimy racist. If you think all Japanese are alike
>> >then you must be the dumbest around here.
>>
>> I have said this before but I'll say it again. Perhaps then it may
>> penetrate your thick, thick skull.
>> When you cannot counter another's argument just label him a racist and
>> Bingo! your problem is solved. The trouble is you have just shown
>> yourself to be a dumb, dumb twit. And adding abuse makes you even dumber.
>

>You made several remarks, your dumber one got my attention first.
>Your stupid line of reasoning is this, if one person from a nation is
>bad apple
>then all the rest are bad.

In regard to the slit-eyed, yellow monkeys from Japland that is dead
right.

>
>> Perhaps you can call the yellow-bellied Japs who brutally murdered 160
>> Gilbertese islanders members of a civilized race but I can't. And this
>> was AFTER the war was over. The Gilbertese were completely unarmed
>> while the brave Japs had machine guns.
>

>Now what is there to argue about when your mind is already made up?
>Pray tell? "To me all Japs are perverted mother fuckers." Pray tell?"

Anyone who could commit the crimes the Japs did are perverted
mother-fuckers. There can be no argument about that whatsoever.
WRD

william john sowa

unread,

Mar 31, 2001, 3:49:09 PM3/31/01

to

In article <Mapx6.9443$lj.7...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com>,

min10011 <min1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>That's awfully grand of you, Sowa. The world is clearly sailing smoothly
>towards peace and understanding so why should these pesky victims speak up
>and rock the boat?

OK, then, Min Yang, I am claiming that a direct cave man ancestor of
yours in 1 million B.C. killed my direct cave man ancestor
(hypothetically for parallel argument, let's suppose I could prove this).
I demand reparation from you immediately. How do you feel about that?

Incidently, I am not paying 1 penny of my tax money to the African
American Slave Reparation Movement. My entire American ancestors
immigrated to USA from Poland circa 1900, well after slavery was abolished
in this country. I and my family had nothing to do with African American
slavery and I don't feel I should give 1 penny to descendents of African
American slaves. The crime was done by the Dutch traders who captured
them in Africa and brought them to America, and the slave owners
themselves. Those people are long-dead, probably rotting in hell, but now
since I am "white (replace this with Japanese for the parallel argument)",
I must now pay the descendents of the African American slaves ?????

No way.

Kaminarikun

unread,

Mar 31, 2001, 4:35:22 PM3/31/01

to

Ray Dobson wrote:
> Kaminarikun <kamin...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >Ray Dobson wrote:
> >> >
> >> >Dobson, you are a slimy racist. If you think all Japanese are alike
> >> >then you must be the dumbest around here.
> >>
> >> I have said this before but I'll say it again. Perhaps then it may
> >> penetrate your thick, thick skull.
> >> When you cannot counter another's argument just label him a racist and
> >> Bingo! your problem is solved. The trouble is you have just shown
> >> yourself to be a dumb, dumb twit. And adding abuse makes you even dumber.
> >
> >You made several remarks, your dumber one got my attention first.
> >Your stupid line of reasoning is this, if one person from a nation is
> >bad apple
> >then all the rest are bad.
>
> In regard to the slit-eyed, yellow monkeys from Japland that is dead
> right.

You aren't shy about being a racist must say. For your info not all have
small eyes.
Even if they did so what? Maybe god gave them small eyes to protect
their eyeballs
from freezing cold unlike those brothers from the beaches and jungles
and plains.
Also, if they are yellow then it might be a good sign where they are
getting plenty of that ever popular carotene.

> >> Perhaps you can call the yellow-bellied Japs who brutally murdered 160
> >> Gilbertese islanders members of a civilized race but I can't. And this
> >> was AFTER the war was over. The Gilbertese were completely unarmed
> >> while the brave Japs had machine guns.
> >
> >Now what is there to argue about when your mind is already made up?
> >Pray tell? "To me all Japs are perverted mother fuckers." Pray tell?"
>
> Anyone who could commit the crimes the Japs did are perverted
> mother-fuckers. There can be no argument about that whatsoever.

Then you are talking almost all of mankind. How stupid.

william john sowa

unread,

Mar 31, 2001, 4:43:19 PM3/31/01

to

In article <2Xpx6.18341$Uw.13...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
Karen Lee <maveri...@email.com> wrote:
>william john sowa <ws...@login.itd.umich.edu>이(가) 아래 메시지를
>news:Y%nx6.218$4K6....@news.itd.umich.edu에 게시하였습니다.

>
>> Furthermore, why do the Koreans still think the world doesn't know what
>> happened? They do.
>
>

>No, they don't.
>
>Do you talk to ANYONE? Anyone besides your puny little circle of friends
>(if you have any at all)?

I bet I've got more friends than you. Yes, I do talk to many people at
social functions about the current Korean issues, and yes, I know it
doesn't fit the description of your expert stereotype of non-Koreans, but
non-Koreans do know a lot about the current Korean issues. And to many of
them, Koreans and Japanese are behaving like little children who run to
the playground chaperone crying. Yes, the atrocities did take place 55
years ago. No, the governments of both countries should not demand
anything, lest we start harping on every little itsy-bitsy injustice that
was ever done in the history of mankind. Look, like I said before, you
address the situation *immediately* after the action. After the Japanese
surrendered, somebody dropped the ball. Deal with it.

>A majority of people in America are unaware of the "comfort women" issue,
>never mind people in other countries. In fact, it's only been addressed
>publicly in Korea itself during the last 15-20 years.

Oh, and like Seymour, you have circulated great surveys to the American
people and your response rate for "Do you know about the comfort women?"
came back at .00000000001% right?

>> Are you afraid that future generations will not be
>> taught what happened? They will.
>

>Not if idiots like you have any say.

Right. Nazi Asians like you will always be around to cultivate and
maintain the hatred.

>> Enough is enough. Stop.
>
>What is it about the comfort women issue that you have a problem with? Why
>do you care if people discuss it?
>
>Oh yeah, right. It's about the damn Koreans.

There were THREE GREAT PURGES in Korean history. 3 times the Korean
people rounded up and killed, executed, and beheaded Christians inside
Korea for simple fear that the Confucian system was being undermined.

As a fellow Christian, I now demand that the Korean people pay reparations
for what **YOU** did to my fellow Christians. The payment can begin with
you, Nazi Asian woman. Pay up NOW.

Message has been deleted

JHL

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Mar 31, 2001, 5:34:31 PM3/31/01

to

This is not a chidren's play that a poor old woman as an individual claimes
her rights to the government that is the legitimate successor of the one who
committed the crime. And the victim was denied it was a result of crime. I
hope you didn't mean it.

--
#define _ELEVEN_ 11
JHL_E...@MediaOne.Net

"william john sowa" <ws...@login.itd.umich.edu> wrote in message

news:Xbsx6.227$4K6....@news.itd.umich.edu...

JHL

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Mar 31, 2001, 5:55:26 PM3/31/01

to

Question irrelevant.

unread,

Mar 31, 2001, 6:49:10 PM3/31/01

to

Heheh, I was laughing so much at the idiocy of your post that I forgot what
I was going to say was one of the main differences between paying
restitution for African slavery and compensation for comfort women. Oh
yeah... in only one of these cases of grave injustice do both the actual
victims and perpetrators happen still to be ALIVE.

william john sowa <ws...@login.itd.umich.edu> wrote in message

news:9prx6.222$4K6....@news.itd.umich.edu...

min10011

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Mar 31, 2001, 6:49:10 PM3/31/01

to

Again with the finger-pointing at other groups. Again, why?

Such facile answers like yours deserve to be exposed for what they are:
evasions. You've done more than I could hope for to demonstrate the
mentality of many a Japanese.

Kaminarikun <kamin...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message

news:3AC63298...@ix.netcom.com...

min10011

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Mar 31, 2001, 6:49:09 PM3/31/01

to

To most this would be irrelevant but to Kaminarikun he wants to know for
*his* own relevant purposes. Could it be that if I were Japanese that he
would fault me for being masochistic and unpatriotic? Or if I were American
that he would accuse me of being paternalistic and self-righteous? Or if I
were Chinese that I was opportunistically covering up for my own tainted
past? Or if I were Korean that I was being unreasonably unforgiving? Or if I
were Danish that I don't know what the heck I'm talking about?

Kaminarikun, why don't you answer my question first: do you believe the
apologies were sufficiently sincere?

JHL <JHL_E...@MediaOne.NET> wrote in message
news:yftx6.8487$WZ4.1...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...

william john sowa

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Mar 31, 2001, 8:05:47 PM3/31/01

to

In article <swsx6.18687$Uw.13...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,

Karen Lee <maveri...@email.com> wrote:
>william john sowa <ws...@login.itd.umich.edu>이(가) 아래 메시지를

>news:Xbsx6.227$4K6....@news.itd.umich.edu에 게시하였습니다.

>
>> Look, like I said before, you
>> address the situation *immediately* after the action. After the Japanese
>> surrendered, somebody dropped the ball. Deal with it.
>
>

>Well, you know, there was this thing called the Korean War after WWII, and
>when you're just trying to survive and rehabilitate a war-torn country,
>issues like "comfort women" drop down on the list.
>
>Duh.

They shouldn't. And do you know another thing? The USAF was not allowed
to drop the bomb on the Emperor's Palace, because that was not "as
strategic a target as Hiroshima." I say 'bullshit', after the war, the
U.S. pumped tons of money into Japan to rebuild the economy. The U.S.
virtually kissed the ass of the Japanese because they felt sorry for
barbequeing so many of them, they felt like they owed it to the Japanese
and were obligated to re-build the country. Did the U.S. Government
mention the rape and torture of prisoners taken by the Japanese and
'comfort women'? No. They were too busy rebuilding Japan in that 5 year
period before the Korean War.

Go to that 5 year period. *That's* the period this discussion should
maintain its focus on. *That's* the period everybody needs to sit back,
cool down, and see where in that 5 year period (1945-1950) what
person/people basically didn't give a rat's ass about Korean
prisoners/comfort women tortured by the Japanese.

unread,

Mar 31, 2001, 8:27:15 PM3/31/01

to

min10011 <min1...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:Napx6.9446$lj.7...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
> Heh, more like Kaminarikun's idiot twin. They are different and cannot be
> compared other than to say that both fall into the broad category of
wartime
> injustice. And if you can't see that then your posts henceforth are not
> worthy of response, even though I can understand that your speaking as a
> European might skew your perspective.
>
>

Hmmmm the good ol' "you're not one of US, therefore you can't understand
it"-argument". I won't waste time coutering that, just think about how
difficult that would make any analysis of any other culture or country than
your own.

BTW where are you from yourself; you and your "unskewed" perspective?!
Please enlighten me, oh great oracle of objectivity!!! Take me out of my
state of skewedess :-)

What is the difference between wartime brothels in country a and country b?
Of course these can be compared, just like forms of government in country a
and b. Otherwise all academical and anytical dialogue and discussion would
be stunted. It is all about finding some variables to make the comparison
on, even though this might be a sensible topic.

Mikkel Madsen

unread,

Mar 31, 2001, 8:30:21 PM3/31/01

to

Kaminarikun <kamin...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message

news:3AC63497...@ix.netcom.com...

> min10011 wrote:
> > Yes, yes, yes, no one in his right mind lumps all Japanese together. So,
> > Kaminarikun, in which camp do you fall with regard to the sincerity of
these
> > apologies?
>
> Which country are you from?

I would like to hea that too. Appearently me and my "europeanness" can't
grasp the essense of this discussion. Please enlighen the forum about your
whereabouts.

Mikkel Madsen

unread,

Mar 31, 2001, 8:39:33 PM3/31/01

to

min10011 <min1...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:Lapx6.9442$lj.7...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...

> I do agree that there are parallels between Germany and Japan, but it's
> become an over-frequent habit among some to drag Germany as well as the
USA,
> China, and other countries into any discussion about JAPANESE war
> atrocities. Why?
>
>

Because it might be enlightening to see things and events in a bigger
perspective, not just going from case to case, without ever comparing the
magnitude of a given event to other events of the same type. Not putting
things into a comparative perspective, just once in a while, bears a great
risk of things turning pretty emotional, just look at this discussion!
Sometimes (but not always, of course) it might be valuable to step back,
compare, and then ask yourself "was this an important event, compared to
other events of the same type?".

Mikkel Madsen

unread,

Mar 31, 2001, 8:41:26 PM3/31/01

to

>
> Obviously, he falls under the
> "Hahaha, you are too late" camp.
>
> stik
>

Serious topic, but.....LOOOOLLL. Good one, Stik!!

Kaminarikun

unread,

Mar 31, 2001, 8:50:14 PM3/31/01

to

Why don't you take a look at their constitution there's nothing on
postwar compensation. The court is saying that the government should
tackle
such problems.

stik 使

unread,

Mar 31, 2001, 8:55:44 PM3/31/01

to

"Kaminarikun" <kamin...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message

> Mark Peterson wrote:
> > Well, clearly that little inbred bastard Hirohito, the Godhead of the
divine
> > nation of Japan at the time, should have been hanged and his remains
> > fed to wild dogs.

> Hahaha. Sour grapes. He's dead. Too late.

Thanks for your thoughtful and honest response.
Unlike *some* Japanese, at least you have the
decency to show your true colors.

Thanks,
Stik T. Kim

Kaminarikun

unread,

Mar 31, 2001, 8:59:45 PM3/31/01

to

min10011 wrote:
> Again with the finger-pointing at other groups. Again, why?
>
> Such facile answers like yours deserve to be exposed for what they are:
> evasions. You've done more than I could hope for to demonstrate the
> mentality of many a Japanese.

Hahaha. Actually those people that refuse to talk about other than what
the Japanese
did are evading. Think about it.

Kaminarikun

unread,

Mar 31, 2001, 9:13:40 PM3/31/01

to

min10011 wrote:
> To most this would be irrelevant but to Kaminarikun he wants to know for
> *his* own relevant purposes. Could it be that if I were Japanese that he
> would fault me for being masochistic and unpatriotic? Or if I were American
> that he would accuse me of being paternalistic and self-righteous? Or if I
> were Chinese that I was opportunistically covering up for my own tainted
> past? Or if I were Korean that I was being unreasonably unforgiving? Or if I
> were Danish that I don't know what the heck I'm talking about?
>
> Kaminarikun, why don't you answer my question first: do you believe the
> apologies were sufficiently sincere?

Why should've I answer to your slimy kid's tick?
Maybe one that when I could read Japanese people's minds i'll let you
know.

min10011

unread,

Mar 31, 2001, 9:30:28 PM3/31/01

to

I see that you're a pretty sensitive fellow. I didn't mean to get you so
upset, and I sincerely apologize if you are. What I meant by skewed
perspective as a European is that there is at times a tendency in the West
to make the crimes of the Nazis absolutely the most heinous of WWII crimes
and that the continent of Europe was one big pitiful victim of Hitler's war
machine, thus whatever misery and loss suffered by Asian WWII victims at the
hands of the JIA can easily be compared to what the Europeans suffered. THAT
IS ALL. Never did I say that Europeans or any non-Asians cannot comprehend
Asian history or culture or even psyche. I think you were being sensitive
and overly judgmental.

Returning to your point about German brothels being the "exact [your
description] same thing" as the Japanese sex-slave *system*, simply put
there is such a vast difference in scale that a comparison like yours is
frankly ludicrous and unworthy of discussion. One further point I wish to
make is that the reason I questioned Kaminarikun about why he brought up the
matter of German brothels was really not to point at which country's crime
was more evil but to ask why he continues to deflect questions about
Japanese war atrocities with references to injustices committed by others.

I still don't see the hard relevance of this, but for your information, I am
an American (eh, New Yorker) of Korean descent. I deduced from your header
that you are Danish (ergo European) and I thought, incorrectly, that others,
like you and Kaminarikun for whom origin is so significant an issue, could
figure out from my header that I am in NYC. If it's of any consequence to
you, I have traveled extensively, including to Japan and I can say with
pride and pleasure and without triteness that I have very good Japanese (and
a Danish) friends.

Here in NYC it is 9:30 pm. I will not be logging in again until Monday. Good
night.

Mikkel Madsen <b...@pc.dk> wrote in message
news:9a602t$poq$1...@news.inet.tele.dk...

Kaminarikun

unread,

Mar 31, 2001, 9:36:14 PM3/31/01

to

You sure do know how to take things out of context.
We were talking about people's habits.
You are talking about something like that usual
why no sincere apology yet.

Tetris

unread,

Mar 31, 2001, 9:47:21 PM3/31/01

to

On Sat, 31 Mar 2001 17:50:14 -0800, Kaminarikun
<kamin...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

Your driving on the wrong side of the road, if you didn't know.

This is about laws concerning abduction, kidnapping, and rape. Tell
me that Japan do not have such laws....

In case you forget, the few rape cases by american GI marines in Japan
created such furore among the Japanese public. Don't you find it
amazing that this case involve some 300,000 korean sex slaves and the
Japanese are rather quiet on this? The last straw is, of course, when
Japanese courts abandon justice and takes on a political role, and
that is unacceptable and outrageous!

Kaminarikun

unread,

Mar 31, 2001, 9:41:27 PM3/31/01

to

JHL wrote:
> Question irrelevant.

They are all cowards. They don't want to say which country their
foul mouth represents.

JHL

unread,

Mar 31, 2001, 10:08:44 PM3/31/01

to

I represent human race. Seems to me you are such an asshole who can not
think of oneself as an individual human being without connecting to a
country.

--
#define _ELEVEN_ 11
JHL_E...@MediaOne.Net

"Kaminarikun" <kamin...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message

news:3AC69556...@ix.netcom.com...

Kaminarikun

unread,

Mar 31, 2001, 10:15:16 PM3/31/01

to

Don't you know that Japan have stature of limitation for most crimes
including murder. If you kill a Korean in say around 1981 you should be
abled
to walk as a free man today. For rape cases probably lot earlier.
If comfort women were raped in 30s 0r 40s she has no legal grounds to
prosecute
anyone under local ordinance.
On top of that sort od hurdle, in the past forced sex servitude was
legal under
their law. So what the judge is saying is that such matters should be
settled
by the government.

Kaminarikun

unread,

Mar 31, 2001, 10:22:53 PM3/31/01

to

min10011 wrote:
> To most this would be irrelevant but to Kaminarikun he wants to know for
> *his* own relevant purposes. Could it be that if I were Japanese that he
> would fault me for being masochistic and unpatriotic? Or if I were American
> that he would accuse me of being paternalistic and self-righteous? Or if I
> were Chinese that I was opportunistically covering up for my own tainted
> past? Or if I were Korean that I was being unreasonably unforgiving? Or if I
> were Danish that I don't know what the heck I'm talking about?
>
> Kaminarikun, why don't you answer my question first: do you believe the
> apologies were sufficiently sincere?

Why should've I answer to your slimy kid's trick?
Maybe one day when I could read Japanese people's minds i'll let you
know.

JHL

unread,

Mar 31, 2001, 10:29:03 PM3/31/01

to

It was a wrong doing that the Chosun dynasty persecuted christianity.
However the entity who had done the action has lost its continuity to modern
Korean government if you know the history a little bit. If you wanna play a
jury, you'd better understand the differences between the cases.

--
#define _ELEVEN_ 11
JHL_E...@MediaOne.Net

"william john sowa" <ws...@login.itd.umich.edu> wrote in message
news:Ebvx6.231$4K6....@news.itd.umich.edu...

Kaminarikun

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Mar 31, 2001, 10:30:48 PM3/31/01

to

JHL wrote:
> I represent human race. Seems to me you are such an asshole who can not
> think of oneself as an individual human being without connecting to a
> country.

What a crappy excuse. If you truly mean it then that would be such
easier to discuss things.

Kaminarikun

unread,

Mar 31, 2001, 10:34:27 PM3/31/01

to

JHL wrote:
> I represent human race. Seems to me you are such an asshole who can not
> think of oneself as an individual human being without connecting to a
> country.

What a crappy excuse. If you truly mean it then that would be much
easier to discuss things.

Tetris

unread,

Apr 1, 2001, 12:08:58 AM4/1/01

to

On Sat, 31 Mar 2001 19:15:16 -0800, Kaminarikun
<kamin...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

Then what do you suggest? Drop the case?

Perhaps a international recourse, ay in USA court, should be made
available, with judgement binding in Japan.

>On top of that sort od hurdle, in the past forced sex servitude was
>legal under
>their law.

You mean sexual harassment is legalized in Japan? How about torture
and murder of civilians?

>So what the judge is saying is that such matters should be
>settled
>by the government.

No. The hiroshima judge trivilized a criminal issue, which is
unbecoming of his duty. The previous court took up the case and award
damages (peanuts, to say the least). The appeal court overturned the
judgement. This confirm that the Japan courts took up the case
proper, and did NOT absolve the Japan government of its past crimes.

Kaminarikun

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Apr 1, 2001, 12:45:42 AM4/1/01

to

Didn't these women know that Korean government is paying over 20,000
each? Also Japanese private group with the government backing
are paying out too along with a letter of apology. They could try either
one
if they want to.

Not more than most, including you and Kami...

I meant by skewed
> perspective as a European is that there is at times a tendency in the West
> to make the crimes of the Nazis absolutely the most heinous of WWII crimes
> and that the continent of Europe was one big pitiful victim of Hitler's
war
> machine, thus whatever misery and loss suffered by Asian WWII victims at
the
> hands of the JIA can easily be compared to what the Europeans suffered.
THAT
> IS ALL. Never did I say that Europeans or any non-Asians cannot comprehend
> Asian history or culture or even psyche. I think you were being sensitive
> and overly judgmental.

OK, point taken I was too fast.... I don't buy the "nazi crimes are unique
and shouldn't be compared to anything else"-thesis either, even as a
european.... We agree on that one, min10011. That's my whole point: This
creeping tendency to view everything in "case" perspective: Where everything
is unique and can't be compared to anything else, you probably now that
tendency from the holocaust debate....?!

> Returning to your point about German brothels being the "exact [your
> description] same thing" as the Japanese sex-slave *system*, simply put
> there is such a vast difference in scale that a comparison like yours is
> frankly ludicrous and unworthy of discussion.

>
>

I said it was the same phenomenon in my last post, NOT that it was the same
magnitude! My last post was about basically the same thing as you write now:
The comparative analysis of the two phenomena, which is roughly the same
(wartime brothels and prostitution). If people can produce some numbers (of
prostitutes/brothels etc.) then we can see which system is more "elaborate"
or "cruel". I know this sounds terribly cold and analytical, but if we just
fall into the pit of emotionalism (I do that from time to time) then no
discussion is possible and we wil eventualy end up suting at each other.

stik 使

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Apr 1, 2001, 8:03:40 AM4/1/01

to

"Kaminarikun" <kamin...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message

You were accusing *others* of smearing the Japanese.
I replied that Japan is shitting in their own face --
and that there is NO NEED for *others* to try to make
them look bad in respect to the issue of Japanese'
outrageous and immoral actions during the War.

stik

calmar

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Apr 1, 2001, 9:40:18 AM4/1/01

to

> Here's one. While technology has progressed, morality remains the same
> now as it is a hundred years ago. You talking of benchmark on morals.
> Its either you have it, or you don't. For humans, ethics and morals
> are expected, but for animals that may not exist. So you tell me what
> category the judge belong?

Yes, it's expected, but humans are still (similar to animals inside (with
some special features), and ideas like 'equality' for everyone is pretty
theoretical. But I think I would give this 'equality' even to someone which
i distrust and dislike haevily. To avoid that I have done anything against
him, and afterwards it would expose, that the person would have been in fact
'trustable' and honest.

So i would suppress my 'feelings'. But if i would almost never do such
suppressings, ...when i would decide according to my feelings, this will
hardly never result an equality, because the 'feelings never treats everyone
in a equal way'. They put certainly different people in different categories
(even only due to leck of knowledge, but they do, and that's pretty normal)
(and the ones very similar to yourself, or people you like especially,
would have just more credit)

So you should not ask 'animal/human', but 'handling according own
feelings/or supress them with 'equity ideas' '

Tetris

unread,

Apr 1, 2001, 10:11:04 AM4/1/01

to

On Sun, 1 Apr 2001 15:40:18 +0200, "calmar" <cand...@gmx.net> wrote:

>
>
>> Here's one. While technology has progressed, morality remains the same
>> now as it is a hundred years ago. You talking of benchmark on morals.
>> Its either you have it, or you don't. For humans, ethics and morals
>> are expected, but for animals that may not exist. So you tell me what
>> category the judge belong?
>
>
>Yes, it's expected, but humans are still (similar to animals inside (with
>some special features), and ideas like 'equality' for everyone is pretty
>theoretical. But I think I would give this 'equality' even to someone which
>i distrust and dislike haevily. To avoid that I have done anything against
>him, and afterwards it would expose, that the person would have been in fact
>'trustable' and honest.
>
>So i would suppress my 'feelings'. But if i would almost never do such
>suppressings, ...when i would decide according to my feelings, this will
>hardly never result an equality,

Not an issue with inequality. It is an issue of one breaking the
rules of humanity and later facing the music. All wars will end, and
thereafter, crimes committed will be reported, individually tried, and
punished. This is by far the most powerful deterrent against tempted
war criminals.

> because the 'feelings never treats everyone
>in a equal way'. They put certainly different people in different categories
>(even only due to leck of knowledge, but they do, and that's pretty normal)
>(and the ones very similar to yourself, or people you like especially,
>would have just more credit)
>
>So you should not ask 'animal/human', but 'handling according own
>feelings/or supress them with 'equity ideas' '
>

Anyone has full control over his/her actions, be it saintly or
criminal. But one must remember that after an act is committed, it is
a matter of time that justice catches up with them. War is no excuse
for committing acts against humanity. If one behave like an animal,
then one will be treated like an animal afterwards in a court of
justice. No excuses whatsoever.

Besides, didn't the Japan school textbooks say there was no war? T hen
will it mean these rapes and sex slavery occur during PEACETIME? If
so, a civil court will be appropriate to try these rapists and the
pimps, be they soldiers, generals, politicians or civilians, right?

Tetris

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Apr 1, 2001, 10:25:49 AM4/1/01

to

On Sat, 31 Mar 2001 21:45:42 -0800, Kaminarikun
<kamin...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> [separately replied]

>
>At the time, murder was of course not legal. But like I said, there's a
>limit to
>using their local laws for past crimes due to their stature of
>limitation.
>

Japan employs the simple trick of throwing out lawsuit after lawsuit
for 50 years after the war, and then declare game over?!!!

Sounds to me like a football match where after scoring a goal, you
dismantle your goalpost for the rest of the playing time and put it
back after the final whistle, and claim you won? Such naivety!