Irrationality in Japanese culture
Charles Eicher
In article <5skt91$i5k$1...@misc.twics.com>,
"lamphier@nooospammmm"@m.u-tokyo.ac.jp wrote:
> I still do not accept that Japanese are somehow less rational or logical
> -- Rob's pizza story notwithstanding.
Huh? I missed the pizza anecdote..
> ..I think what is described as a
> lack of rationality or logic in Japanese culture is more often in fact a
> lack of individuality and personal expression, or a submission of one's
> personal will and opinion to that of the group. It does little good to
> hold a personal belief if you can't express it, and Japan has
> practically institutionalized the practice of thinking one thing and
> saying another (e.g. honne and tatemae).
>
[big snip of description of emotional motivations in westerners]
> Having said that, there is certainly an anti-rational streak that runs
> through Japanese culture. Zen Buddhism is a great example, the ultimate
> purpose of which is to train you to become unshackeled by the restraints
> of logic; "what is the sound of one hand clapping?" "what was my face
> before I was born?". In the dramatic arts Kyou-gen is theatre based on
> irrationality, and even Noh might be desribed as anti-rational. Japanese
> literature celebrates irrationality; e.g. Kinkakuji by Mishima -- or the
> completely enigmatic Izumi Kyoka.
Ah.. now here, I think both possibilities, emotional vs. rational, go astray.
I myself spent much time thinking about this issue, especially after
hearing a lecture on Japanese expressions used to describe emotional
states. As my sensei described it, people emotional states generate
spontaneously, it has virtually no meaning to "make someone happy", you can
do something and afterwards, people "are happy" but this is not a
consequence of the first action, it just happens of its own accord. He
quite clearly stated that the Japanese believe that emotions have a life of
their own, and nothing can be done to alter them. As a consequence, people
don't have any responsibility for the actions taken in a highly charged
emotional state.. Well, I've puzzled over this for quite a while..
Anyway, last year, in the Narita airport, I happened to pick up a very
interesting paperback book, and I read it on the flight home. It is called
"The Unspoken Way: Haragei".. The author places far too much importance on
Zen, as he is a zen practitioner. However, some of his arguments are of
interest. He says that the Japanese act on their "gut feelings" rather than
emotion or rational thought. Someone who relies too much on his heart is
considered irrational, someone who is too rational is considered to be
cold-hearted. But if a proper balance is established, plus a bit of some
inexpressible third quality, you are acting with your "hara".. your "gut
feelings".. The author seems to imply that this third quality is a lack of
ego, an ability to do things altruistically, selflessly. Acting with 'hara'
would mean making decisions, or taking actions that would not be 'right'
based on either an emotional or rational basis. Anyway, I don't know if
he's right, certainly he covers enough ground that he can't possibly be
right about everything, but I highly recommend this book to anyone
interested in this particular "rational vs. emotional" "western/eastern"
issue.
| Charles Eicher |
| -=- |
| cei...@inav.net |
Marc Lamphier
fi...@unforgettable.com wrote:
>
> In article <whitej-0608...@202.230.44.173>,
> whi...@net.ksp.or.jp (Jonathon David White) wrote:
> >
> > In article <5s4m3a$s...@news.nc.u-tokyo.ac.jp>, lamp...@m.u-tokyo.ac.jp wrote:
> > > different. Medieval Europe was also very authoritarian and there was a
> > > high degree of political control over almost every social institution
> > > that insured conformity. Perhaps in Japan this political control was
> > > simply more thorough and long-lasting?
>
> I disagree that there was a "high degree of political control" in
> Medieval Europe. Sure, the individual peasant may have been fairly well
> controlled, but political authority was fragmented, just as it has been
> in Europe since the height of the Roman Empire.
>
> I think this political fragmentation had a lot to with the development of
> a way of thinking that is different from the Japanese way of thinking.
> Conformity was clearly a goal of both European monarchs and Japanese
> rulers -- but the Europeans just weren't powerful enough to attain the
> goal. Because in Europe, there was always a prince or free city
> somewhere that you could run to. Luther ran to northern Germany.
> Tyndale printed his forbidden English bible on the continent. Calvin set
> up his private theological state in Geneva. Descartes took refuge in
> Holland. Voltaire fled to Switzerland. Marx lived in London. Victor
> Hugo lived on the Channel Islands so he could criticize Napoleon III.
> Lenin and Company hung out in Zurich and bombarded Russia with illegal
> newspapers. So throughout European history, independent thinkers were
> able to survive long enough for their ideas to become widely accepted.
> By contrast, where could an independent thinker possibly find refuge if
> he or she were born in Tokugawa Japan? Only one place, really: inside
> his or her skull.
>
Good points. Political control in Tokugawa Japan was far more thorough
than anything possible in Europe. And as Jonathon points out this
control was often ruthlessly enforced . One can almost view the culture
which developed in Tokugawa Japan as a reflection of the total control
over the individual. Much of the culture that we view as distinctly
"Japanese" developed during this time; Zen buddhism and the arts it
inspired such as tea ceromony, haiku, shodo, the Bushido ethos, etc.
What these have in common is the submergence of one's individuality. In
the case of Bushido the highest moral good is complete obediance to
one's superior (not to one's conscience as dictated by a personal belief
in God, etc.).
I still do not accept that Japanese are somehow less rational or logical
-- Rob's pizza story notwithstanding. I think what is described as a
lack of rationality or logic in Japanese culture is more often in fact a
lack of individuality and personal expression, or a submission of one's
personal will and opinion to that of the group. It does little good to
hold a personal belief if you can't express it, and Japan has
practically institutionalized the practice of thinking one thing and
saying another (e.g. honne and tatemae).
Furthermore I don't seriously believe that most Westerners govern their
own lives by rationality and logic. Most people make decisions based on
their emotions, and it requires a great deal of work to actually work
through a decision rationally. Major decisions maybe (but even here I am
doubtful; who should I marry, what career should I follow, where should
I live -- how many of you made these decisions based on rational
thinking?). Advertisers are well aware of this and you rarely see an ad
pitched to our "rational" or "logical" selves. Spend a day looking
through Usenet newsgroups (dominated by Westerners) if you really want
to assert that Westerners are somehow rational and logical :-/
Having said that, there is certainly an anti-rational streak that runs
through Japanese culture. Zen Buddhism is a great example, the ultimate
purpose of which is to train you to become unshackeled by the restraints
of logic; "what is the sound of one hand clapping?" "what was my face
before I was born?". In the dramatic arts Kyou-gen is theatre based on
irrationality, and even Noh might be desribed as anti-rational. Japanese
literature celebrates irrationality; e.g. Kinkakuji by Mishima -- or the
completely enigmatic Izumi Kyoka.
But I don't think the West is so far behind. Western culture in our time
has been dedicated primarily to the exploration of irrationality.
Starting with Freud and the unconsciousness, then Einstein and the
destruction of common norms about space and time, the uncertainty
principle in physics, black holes, quantum mechanics, etc. 20th-century
Western art is a reaction against rationality; Picasso and the cubists,
Salvidor Dali and the surrealists, etc. The theme of 20th-century
Western art and culture might be simply "stop making sense". Might
explain why Japanese Zen Buddhism now has more followers in the West
than it does in Japan.
So I don't buy it. Frankly, I am not quite sure what Rob's pizza story
means, nor whether it represents anything typical in Japanese culture
(it may, but I don't quite get the connection). I can give you mountains
of stories about irrational things Americans say and do.
I realize that many studies about Japan make the point that Japanese
culture being irrational and indeed many Japanese themselves describe
their culture as such (this is a core argument in many Nihonjin-ron
arguments). But despite the number of times I've heard people say this,
I've found very few concrete examples of what it actually refers to.
Anyone wish to elaborate?
-Marc
Andrew Drapp
Someone else wrote:
: > > > different. Medieval Europe was also very authoritarian and there was a
: > > > high degree of political control over almost every social institution
: > > > that insured conformity. Perhaps in Japan this political control was
: > > > simply more thorough and long-lasting?
I am reading a book called Connections, which was the basis for the series
on the Discovery channel a fewy years ago. Basically it is a pretty cool
book about the flow of inventions and how it has influenced society. In
one episode (this wasnt in the book so far) he explained world war II on
fertalizer. This is no pun. He actually attempted to demonstrait how
fertalizer set the stage for WWII and how it was a major factor in how the
war went. But this is not about that topic.
Anyway, in this book, one thing he said that I thought was interesting was
about how in the ancient world China was one of the most advanced societies,
and continued to have a fair number of developments, but there was never
really an industrial revolution in the East. His claim was similar to the
above. There was too much control and stability in the East. In the west,
a new invention resulted in cities being destroyied, wars being fought, etc.
In this chaotic enviornment of change in the West, more growth was possible.
I guess you could also attribute the rationalist and enlightenment movements
to this as well. Why not.
Marc Lamphier ("lamphier@nooospammmm"@m.u-tokyo.ac.jp) wrote:
: I still do not accept that Japanese are somehow less rational or logical
I agree Marc. In terms of strict logic, I think Japanese are actually pretty
good at it. Strict logic meaning deductive logic of going from If A, then B.
Although I would say that Japanese are not as strong in, hmmm, creative
thought. I don't mean to imply that Japanese are not creative. Instead,
I have noticed that Japanese tend to think down estiblished lines, and have
a harder time coming up with new ideas and thinking down a new train of
thought.
: It does little good to
: hold a personal belief if you can't express it, and Japan has
: practically institutionalized the practice of thinking one thing and
: saying another (e.g. honne and tatemae).
This personally annoys me. Some people are "tone deaf". Well, I am
"emotional deaf". I have an extreamly hard time hearing the thoughts or
feeelings behind what someone is saying in any culture or language, even my
own. But again this is beside the point.
: Furthermore I don't seriously believe that most Westerners govern their
: own lives by rationality and logic. Most people make decisions based on
: their emotions, and it requires a great deal of work to actually work
: through a decision rationally.
I would add that most people make decisions based on emotions, and then
rationalize them with "logic". Try this fun expirment. Ask someone why
they did something. They will almost always give you a logical reason.
: Major decisions maybe (but even here I am
: doubtful; who should I marry, what career should I follow, where should
: I live -- how many of you made these decisions based on rational
: thinking?).
Ummm, I did. But then, I have never quite thougt I did things the normal way.
: "what was my face
: before I was born?".
That one's easy. A slimy, ugly mess inside your mother.
: But I don't think the West is so far behind. Western culture in our time
: has been dedicated primarily to the exploration of irrationality.
: Starting with Freud and the unconsciousness, then Einstein and the
: destruction of common norms about space and time, the uncertainty
: principle in physics, black holes, quantum mechanics, etc.
I can't comment on Psychology, and I agree about art. But modern physics
denies "intuition" not "rationality". Realitivity is perfectly "logical"
and "rational" as is the uncertainty principle and black holes. OK, modern
Quantum Mechanics, or at least its interpretations are non rational, but
then I don't agree with those. I did a research paper on a classical
(that means mostly newtonian) intrepretation of QE which explained QE
phenomana in a rational way, but the prof didn't like it. Oh well.
: So I don't buy it. Frankly, I am not quite sure what Rob's pizza story
: means, nor whether it represents anything typical in Japanese culture
I think Rob's pizza story shows that Japanese are rational. I think it
also shows that they have a different set of values (everyone should
be treated the same vs. don't waste food etc.). If you start with different
premisises, you will get different conclusions. That does not make one
less logical.
Andrew
and...@cet.co.jp.i.hate.spam
--
Eat this you crappy spambot:
root@localhost
postmaster@localhost
abuse@localhost
Shimpei Yamashita
Marc Lamphier <"lamphier@nooospammmm"@m.u-tokyo.ac.jp> writes:
>
>Good points. Political control in Tokugawa Japan was far more thorough
>than anything possible in Europe. And as Jonathon points out this
>control was often ruthlessly enforced . One can almost view the culture
>which developed in Tokugawa Japan as a reflection of the total control
>over the individual. Much of the culture that we view as distinctly
>"Japanese" developed during this time; Zen buddhism and the arts it
>inspired such as tea ceromony, haiku, shodo, the Bushido ethos, etc.
Zen Buddhism was brought to Japan during 13th century, and was already
popular back then. The Tokugawa regime was not overly friendly to
organized religion of any sort (because they were not only hindrances
to policymaking in all of the previous regimes, but also primary
instigators of peasant uprisings before the Tokugawas united Japan),
although they probably had less problems with the Zen practitioners and
their passive ways than the various popular Nenbutsu-oriented sects.
Shodo has its roots in China, and predates the Edo era by even more.
I don't know exactly when it arrived in Japan, but seeing how you need
to know calligraphy to write Chinese characters, they probably arrived
at the same time. All of the calligraphy-related legends I know of
(like that of the calligrapher Ono no Touhuu being inspired by a frog
trying to jump onto a branch, or that of Koubou Daishi throwing his pen
at a billboard to correct a typo) are from around 1000AD. In fact, I
am not aware that shodo made significant advancement in the Edo era,
beyond making it popular with the general populace (more people knew
how to read and write).
>What these have in common is the submergence of one's individuality. In
>the case of Bushido the highest moral good is complete obediance to
>one's superior (not to one's conscience as dictated by a personal belief
>in God, etc.).
I, for one, fail to see how arts like haiku, shodo, and Japanese
painting are proofs of "submergence of one's individuality." Haiku by
Basho, Issa, Buson and others were highly original, and certainly are
not works that could have been created by programmed individuals.
Ukiyo-e paintings were not only popular in Japan but valued for their
original artistry by connoiseurs in a supposedly more individualistic
19th century Europe. Moreover, Japanese had possessed a home-brewed
version of mathematics (called wa-san) that started from merchants'
accounting but evolved to something far and above that; Seki Takakazu
in fact had developed calculus independently not long after Leibniz.
Novels were incredibly popular during these days, and some are still
read today.
I think you are only looking at one side of the issue. It is true that
the samurai class, and the ruling samurais in particular, were bound
by the restrictive code that you refer to. But the lower class
samurais, being insignificant in the scheme of things, were not as
conformal, and the commoners owed zero allegiance to their
"superiors", because they did not have any (beyond the normal
employer-employee relationships). Indeed, most of the greatest
creative works from the Edo era are from lower-class samurais,
unemployed samurais (ronin) or commoners.
The Tokugawa regime did make several attempts to regulate thought: it
banned Christianity and a few fringe Buddhist sects early, and made
several attempts later to ban non-sanctioned Confucian schools and the
so-called "Rangaku" school (Dutch studies--generally anything from the
West). None of the later attempts were successful, so far as I can
tell, and the government eventually reversed its position and embraced
Rangaku to fend itself against the growing threats of the West--but
too late, as the lower-class samurais from a handful of fiefs, united
under the new "emperor's nation" philosophy, literally dragged their
lords into action and overthrew the shogunate.
What the Tokugawa regime had done successfully was to embed the
so-called "shimaguni konjoh" (island-nation mentality)
semi-permanently into the Japanese psyche; having been cut off from
the rest of the world for centuries, the Japanese people ceased to
consider their nation relative to the rest of the world, and to regard
all foreigners with hostility and suspicion--a trend that still
continues today. I do not think, however, that the peasant-lords of
rural Mikawa region that made the framework of the Tokugawa regime had
any clue how dangerous common people with the pen could be, nor that
they would have been able to restrict the people under their feudal
system to such an extent even if they wanted to. The Tokugawa system
was perfect for keeping the peasants (who consisted of more than 80%
of the Japanese population) as mindless serfs; it was woefully unsuited
for converting millions of city-dwellers (in a turn of events never
even dreamt of by Ieyasu, Edo was the largest city in the world for
some time during the 18th century) into mindless robots.
>I still do not accept that Japanese are somehow less rational or logical
>-- Rob's pizza story notwithstanding. I think what is described as a
>lack of rationality or logic in Japanese culture is more often in fact a
>lack of individuality and personal expression, or a submission of one's
>personal will and opinion to that of the group. It does little good to
>hold a personal belief if you can't express it, and Japan has
>practically institutionalized the practice of thinking one thing and
>saying another (e.g. honne and tatemae).
I think, as a general rule, new and original thoughts do not occur as
much in peaceful societies, because they do not need them. People are
more willing to come up with and embrace new thoughts when the world
around them is clearly showing them that the old ones are not working.
Japan had unprecedented peace for two centuries under the Tokugawas,
during which it saw little more than farmers' rebellions here and
there (which were generally dealt with fairly, because the rulers knew
it was in their interest to keep the peasants reasonably
content). Fringe theories like the "emperor as ruler and god of Japan"
were actually developed during this era, but were ignored by the
general populace. It is a big mistake to assume that the great turn of
events that led to the overthrow of the Shoguns was a spontaneous
course of actions that suddenly started when Perry kicked the door
open in 1853 and demanded to be let in! The dissident thoughts that
fed the revolution were there for years, discouraged and sometimes
actively suppressed by the government but never dead.
>Having said that, there is certainly an anti-rational streak that runs
>through Japanese culture. Zen Buddhism is a great example, the ultimate
>purpose of which is to train you to become unshackeled by the restraints
>of logic; "what is the sound of one hand clapping?" "what was my face
>before I was born?". In the dramatic arts Kyou-gen is theatre based on
>irrationality, and even Noh might be desribed as anti-rational. Japanese
>literature celebrates irrationality; e.g. Kinkakuji by Mishima -- or the
>completely enigmatic Izumi Kyoka.
I've never read Izumi Kyoka, but I came away from Mishima's books with
the feeling that he was more influenced by the Western irrational
schools of thought, like the French existentialists, than anything
Japanese (his ultranationalist views late in life notwithstanding). I
think I'm safe in making this assumption, since Mishima would hardly
be alone; the Japanese creative writing scene since the Meiji era, for
a long time, had been a frantic effort to assimilate the techniques of
the Western novel. I might go so far as to say that virtually every
Japanese writer prior to 1960s who is still worth reading today
studied and borrowed from Western literature extensively. Their
efforts to import grammatical constructs, writing styles, new
vocabulary, and even punctuation marks are obvious if you read any
literature from the 19th century and up to around 1920.
I am still not convinced that the Japanese culture is particularly
actively anti-rational. Call it irrational, and I'd be happy to accept
that. Zen is not a good example; it is distinctly off the mainstream
of even the Japanese culture. The very fact that the Japanese students
need to go through many antirational koans in order to understand it
implies that the Japanese people in general do not think that way, no?
It's like pointing to the hippies in the 60's and saying that all
Americans have that kind of tendency. The hippie culture did influence
America irreversibly and in a big way, but it was never more than a
small minority culture.
--
Shimpei Yamashita <http://www.patnet.caltech.edu/%7Eshimpei/>
Shimpei Yamashita
>than anything possible in Europe. And as Jonathon points out this
>control was often ruthlessly enforced . One can almost view the culture
>which developed in Tokugawa Japan as a reflection of the total control
>over the individual. Much of the culture that we view as distinctly
>"Japanese" developed during this time; Zen buddhism and the arts it
>inspired such as tea ceromony, haiku, shodo, the Bushido ethos, etc.
Zen Buddhism was brought to Japan during 13th century, and was already
popular back then. The Tokugawa regime was not overly friendly to
organized religion of any sort (because they were not only hindrances
to policymaking in all of the previous regimes, but also primary
instigators of peasant uprisings before the Tokugawas united Japan),
although they probably had less problems with the Zen practitioners and
their passive ways than the various popular Nenbutsu-oriented sects.
Shodo has its roots in China, and predates the Edo era by even more.
I don't know exactly when it arrived in Japan, but seeing how you need
to know calligraphy to write Chinese characters, they probably arrived
at the same time. All of the calligraphy-related legends I know of
(like that of the calligrapher Ono no Touhuu being inspired by a frog
trying to jump onto a branch, or that of Koubou Daishi throwing his pen
at a billboard to correct a typo) are from around 1000AD. In fact, I
am not aware that shodo made significant advancement in the Edo era,
beyond making it popular with the general populace (more people knew
how to read and write).
>What these have in common is the submergence of one's individuality. In
>the case of Bushido the highest moral good is complete obediance to
>one's superior (not to one's conscience as dictated by a personal belief
>in God, etc.).
I, for one, fail to see how arts like haiku, shodo, and Japanese
>I still do not accept that Japanese are somehow less rational or logical
>-- Rob's pizza story notwithstanding. I think what is described as a
>lack of rationality or logic in Japanese culture is more often in fact a
>lack of individuality and personal expression, or a submission of one's
>personal will and opinion to that of the group. It does little good to
>hold a personal belief if you can't express it, and Japan has
>practically institutionalized the practice of thinking one thing and
>saying another (e.g. honne and tatemae).
I think, as a general rule, new and original thoughts do not occur as
much in peaceful societies, because they do not need them. People are
more willing to come up with and embrace new thoughts when the world
around them is clearly showing them that the old ones are not working.
Japan had unprecedented peace for two centuries under the Tokugawas,
during which it saw little more than farmers' rebellions here and
there (which were generally dealt with fairly, because the rulers knew
it was in their interest to keep the peasants reasonably
content). Fringe theories like the "emperor as ruler and god of Japan"
were actually developed during this era, but were ignored by the
general populace. It is a big mistake to assume that the great turn of
events that led to the overthrow of the Shoguns was a spontaneous
course of actions that suddenly started when Perry kicked the door
open in 1853 and demanded to be let in! The dissident thoughts that
fed the revolution were there for years, discouraged and sometimes
actively suppressed by the government but never dead.
>Having said that, there is certainly an anti-rational streak that runs
>through Japanese culture. Zen Buddhism is a great example, the ultimate
>purpose of which is to train you to become unshackeled by the restraints
>of logic; "what is the sound of one hand clapping?" "what was my face
>before I was born?". In the dramatic arts Kyou-gen is theatre based on
>irrationality, and even Noh might be desribed as anti-rational. Japanese
>literature celebrates irrationality; e.g. Kinkakuji by Mishima -- or the
>completely enigmatic Izumi Kyoka.
I've never read Izumi Kyoka, but I came away from Mishima's books with
Mike Fester
Shimpei Yamashita (shi...@socrates.patnet.caltech.edu) wrote:
(Coupla coments)
: The Tokugawa regime did make several attempts to regulate thought: it
: banned Christianity and a few fringe Buddhist sects early, and made
I believe, though, that the ban of Christianity was more politically motivated
than anything else; simply, as the Christians would be titularly responsible to
a power outside the control of Japan, the Tokugawa could be threatened through
various alliances that could not develop, were there no Christians.
: semi-permanently into the Japanese psyche; having been cut off from
: the rest of the world for centuries, the Japanese people ceased to
: consider their nation relative to the rest of the world, and to regard
: all foreigners with hostility and suspicion--a trend that still
: continues today. I do not think, however, that the peasant-lords of
Well, considerably less so than even a couple decades ago.
: I've never read Izumi Kyoka, but I came away from Mishima's books with
: the feeling that he was more influenced by the Western irrational
: schools of thought, like the French existentialists, than anything
: Japanese (his ultranationalist views late in life notwithstanding). I
Ultranationalism is not uniquely, nor even originally, Japanese. Indeed, the
term "Chauvanist" referred originally to such ultranationalism.
Mike
Jonathon David White
Comment on the Pizza incident:
I don't think that this is uniquelly Japanese. I remember a
"Flintstones" episode (I think Flintstones are a good reflection of 1950's
US culture) in which Fred and Barney are sitting in the living room having
a nice talk and Mrs. Flintstone comes in bringing 2 pieces of cake -- one
large and one small.
Fred: You take the big piece!
Barney: No, you take it Fred.
Fred: I insist, you take it.
Barney takes the cake and swallows in in one gulp.
Fred: You selfish little....
Human nature, desu ne? Universal Honne/Tatamae. One can only escape from
this duality if one really, honestly loves a person. It seems that Jesus
taught that it was impossible for a person to really, honestly love other
people, if they had not experienced love from God.
End of my 2 cents...
R. Ringdahl
I've been reading with interest the various opinions about the Edo
period. For lack of time, I would like to make a few statements that
are not necessarily connected. In contrast to the previous Sengoku
period, which had been a period of chaos, warfare, barbarity, violence,
upheaval, instability, etc., the country was finally totally united and
stabilized under the Tokugawas. Along with stability, the country
gradually began a process of enhanced self-awareness and secularization,
that is, a move from the otherworldliness of Buddhism, more typical of
the earlier chaotic times, to Confucianism, which is definitely of this
world and more in tune with the atmosphere of the times. That is also
why Ieyasu espoused Confucianism and why Buddhism did not play a
particularly important role in Tokugawa culture. This secularization
was also an important element that stimulated the modernization of
Japan. The samurai (jizamurai) were forced to give up their lands and to
move to the various castle towns around the country, which, in effect,
made them landless, non-producing bureaucrats and consumers who
stimulated the economy. The hyakusho, farmers, who stayed behind in the
villages, took over ownership of the agricultural land, while the
merchant and craftsman classes owned the land in the castle towns and
cities. Both the hyakusho in the villages and the merchants in the
cities essentially governed themselves without much interference from
the Shogunate or han. There was a steady improvement in the living
conditions of both the hyakusho and the merchants. It is documented,
for example, that the rate of the rice tax (nengu), which was the basis
of the economy, dropped to about 30% by the early 1700's (according to
Arai Hakuseki), leaving the hyakusho with a considerable surplus. At
the same time, many of the daimyo and han suffered from chronic fiscal
problems. Intellectually, the entire period was extremely dynamic and
fertile and produced countless thinkers and writers, many of whom also
acted as advisors to the Shogunate, and stimulated the growth of the
publishing industry. One commonly heard statistic is that there were
656 rental book shops in Edo in 1808. Though the Shogunate did not
tolerate criticism and limited study in certain areas of Confucianism,
it did nothing to hinder intellectual activities in general. By the
time of the 8th Shogun, Yoshimune, whom I consider to a brilliant and
enlightened leader, Rangaku was encouraged, not because of a threat from
foreign countries, but because interest and curiosity in Europe had
reached a high level.
The official social classes, samurai, hyakusho, merchant and craftsman,
were strongly interdependent and there was nothing to stop social
intercourse between them. There was also a certain amount of fluidity
between them and there are even documented cases of hyakusho becoming
samurai.
The Shogunate did not involve itself in education but did nothing to
discourage it. There were terakoya and juku throughout the country,
taught by ronin or others. In fact, Sekimon Shingaku, an educational
movement that swept the country during the later 1700's, was endorsed by
the Shogunate. Literacy was high in all classes and was probably higher
than in Europe at the same time.
Though we ourselves would certainly find conditions in Japan during the
Edo period intolerable, that of course has no bearing on how we should
form opinions about earlier periods. A couple of quotes about the Edo
period:During the 1980's, Fukuzawa Yukichi, founder of Keio University
(his face is on the 10,000 yen bill) described Japan under the Tokugawas
as a paradise because of the Shogunate's policies of economic
equalization. The historian [temporary lapse of memory] wrote "…at
least during the latter part of the Edo period, there was less of a
disparity between the economic and cultural levels of the few who ruled
and the many who were ruled in Japan than in Europe at the same time and
the general populace probably enjoyed a higher level of living and
cultural standards" (from Edo ha Yume Ka).
Ron Ringdahl
Andreas Somogyi
Shimpei Yamashita wrote:
>
Snip...
>
> Zen Buddhism was brought to Japan during 13th century, and was already
> popular back then. The Tokugawa regime was not overly friendly to
Uhm, sumimasen, but to my information, Zen (Zazen) was introduced in
Japan twice; the first time late in the Heian Period (i.e before 1185)
by the monk Eisai who founded the Rinzaishu sect, the second time in the
Kamakura period by Dogen (1200-1253), the founder of the So-to-shu sect.
...rest deleted
/Andreas
--
-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=
Andreas Somogyi
Law student, University of Lund
THEMIS
Translations - Hungarian, Swedish, and English
http://www.student1.lu.se/~fug95aso/index.htm
Mailto:Andreas...@USA.Net
Pgp public key:
http://www.student1.lu.se/~fug95aso/pgp.htm
Jean-Marc Rocher
Mike Fester wrote:
>
> Shimpei Yamashita (shi...@socrates.patnet.caltech.edu) wrote:
>
> (Coupla coments)
>
> : banned Christianity and a few fringe Buddhist sects early, and made
>
> than anything else; simply, as the Christians would be titularly responsible to
> a power outside the control of Japan, the Tokugawa could be threatened through
> various alliances that could not develop, were there no Christians.
> Mike
Even more directly political than that; during the *mumble* period of
Nobunaga, Hideyoshi and Tokugawa, one of the consistently strong rival
factions was a group of warlords in Kyuushuu. Many of these lords had
converted to Christianity, and so were the primary traders with Europe
(due to their geographic location, they were also the primary traders
with Korea and China). By declaring Christianity illegal and closing
Japan off to foreigners, Tokugawa could effectively cut off their
political and economic power.
Jean-Marc
roc...@infonia.ne.jp
Akira Ijuin
Subject changed.
In soc.culture.japan.moderated Jean-Marc Rocher <roc...@infonia.or.jp> wrote:
> Even more directly political than that; during the *mumble* period
> of Nobunaga, Hideyoshi and Tokugawa, one of the consistently strong
> rival factions was a group of warlords in Kyuushuu.
This is only true to a limited extent. Kyushu was split between
Shimazu, Otomo, and Ryuzoji for a while. Without uniting kyushu, it's
unlikely that warlords in kyushu would'be been able to keep their
grounds. Shimazu came close to uniting kyushu, but was not able to do
so in time.
> Many of these lords had converted to Christianity, and so were the
> primary traders with Europe (due to their geographic location, they
> were also the primary traders with Korea and China).
Although Otomo was able to enjoy increased trade for a while as a
result of hsi conversion to Christianity, the bulk of trade moved to
Hakata and Sakai. Otomo and Mori struggled for the control of Hakata,
and I believe it was Mori, a warlord not from kyushu, that eventually
took control of trade in Hakata.
Note also that Otomo was crushed by Shimazu, and Shimazu did not
embrace Christianity.
> By declaring Christianity illegal and closing Japan off to
> foreigners, Tokugawa could effectively cut off their political and
> economic power.
After the battle of Sekigahara, Shimazu managed to negotiate peace
with Tokugawa under their terms. As a result, Shimazu was allowed to
trade with the rest of the world through Ryukyu.
--
Akira Ijuin, aij...@best.com
Mike Fester
Jean-Marc Rocher (roc...@infonia.or.jp) wrote:
: Mike Fester wrote:
: >
: > Shimpei Yamashita (shi...@socrates.patnet.caltech.edu) wrote:
: >
: > (Coupla coments)
: >
: > : The Tokugawa regime did make several attempts to regulate thought: it
: > : banned Christianity and a few fringe Buddhist sects early, and made
: >
: > I believe, though, that the ban of Christianity was more politically motivated
: > than anything else; simply, as the Christians would be titularly responsible to
: > a power outside the control of Japan, the Tokugawa could be threatened through
: > various alliances that could not develop, were there no Christians.
: Even more directly political than that; during the *mumble* period of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Oh, yeah, that one :-)
(Senkoku Jidai, BTW)
: Nobunaga, Hideyoshi and Tokugawa, one of the consistently strong rival
: factions was a group of warlords in Kyuushuu. Many of these lords had
: converted to Christianity, and so were the primary traders with Europe
: (due to their geographic location, they were also the primary traders
: with Korea and China). By declaring Christianity illegal and closing
: Japan off to foreigners, Tokugawa could effectively cut off their
: political and economic power.
Yeah, and it helped that the European nations with which they were willing
to trade (The Netherlands and Britain, though Britain, offered better trade
terms than the Dutch due to William Adams' influence, weren't interested)
were interested only in trade, not in proselytizing. No need for an alliance
under those conditions.
Mike
michael bazeley
In article <gm97604XNOSPAM...@160.23.62.61>,
gm97604...@seinan-gu.ac.jp (Rob) wrote:
:::One major point I want to make is that to be
:::logical, fair, reasonable, etc., you first have to look at things
:::from an OBJECTIVE viewpoint.
...problematic, since relativity dictates that objectivity is a convenient
_scientific_ fiction and has no place in discussions of cultural or
ideological difference.
you could more easily discuss things in terms of 'good' or 'bad'...
m
michael bazeley
toyohashi, japan.
...a sad day indeed when we have to waste sig-space with "no spam!"... :-(
(anyway, take '*' out of the address for personal replies)
Rob
In article <5t2vd7$s...@diablo.cet.co.jp>, andrew@$TIN_DOMAIN (Andrew Drapp)
wrote:
> michael bazeley (darma@*amitaj.or.jp) wrote:
> : In article <gm97604XNOSPAM...@160.23.62.61>,
> : gm97604...@seinan-gu.ac.jp (Rob) wrote:
>
> : :::One major point I want to make is that to be
> : :::logical, fair, reasonable, etc., you first have to look at things
> : :::from an OBJECTIVE viewpoint.
>
> : ...problematic, since relativity dictates that objectivity is a convenient
> : _scientific_ fiction and has no place in discussions of cultural or
> : ideological difference.
>
>
> Whoa, flag on the field. 1. Relativity as applies to this situation would
> be along the lines of cultural relativity. In that case, cultural
> relativity claims that our values and views of "right" and "wrong"
> are based on our culture and not on some absolue right and wrong. In this
> case, again, objectivity is somewhat possible when we start with the
> assumption that cultural values, are just that, cultural.
>
> 2. What in the world do you mean by _scientific_ fiction. There is
> absolutely nothing "scientific" about cultural relativity. Additionally,
> the scientific version of relativity actually claims many absolutes. This
> is one of my pet pives. People who claim that the theory of relativity
> says that all things are relative. This is along the lines of telling
> Marc that medical research actually shows that smoking is good for you.
I can only respond to the 1st part, since I didn't write the 2nd.
To clarify, if you asked Japan to mediate a dispute between, say, Iran
and Iraq, Japan could do a good objective job. But ask them to
negociate opening their market to chicken from Thailand, and you
have a different (and difficult) issue.
Nearly every culture has some absolutes--murder, theft, incest
are wrong, etc. It is possible to find common ground. In int'l
trade, equally open markets has been the goal. For years Japan has
sold the world everything, but held back from importing. Rice is
the most difficult issue. Cultural issues has always been the
excuse, Japan needs "food security", Japanese rice is "special",
rice is the heart of Japan, Japan doesn't need pesticides, etc.
All of which is bullshit.
The crux of the issue is the same as every other issue--MONEY.
Japan never had food security this century--which is one big
reason why they annexed Korea--for farmland. Pesticides? Japan uses
hundreds, while in the West only a few dozen are allowed. Special?
More like farmer votes are special--and have 4 times the weight of
the urbanite. And on and on. The US let all that slide, to keep
up support during the Cold War. But that era is over. And free
trade is hardly that-- 'minimum access' still allows Zenchu to
rape the consumer, making the Japanese pay over 5 times the world
price.
Again, this is an example of the Japanese thinking what
they want to, and the facts be damned.
For their view of the world, or for history, or current events,
I find many Japanese exceedingly ignorant. (Not to say that
Westerners are brilliant by any means). But their views are
exactly what the System wants them to be. When something goes wrong,
no one wants to accept responsibility. The politicians blame the
bureaucrats, the bureaucrats blame Big Business, Big Business
blames the Politicians.
Japanese guilty for atrocities in Asia? "Not my fault--blame the
army" is a typical response. Somehow having one's nose at the
grindstone of the War Machine is unrelated.
Harry Truman said, "The buck stops here." In Japan, the buck just
keeps going around and around and around.
So if one's cultural views change according to one's feelings,
or which way the wind blows, I can hardly find them reliable.
One of the big sticking points in Japanese relations with Asia is
that whenever things get settles down and look like we might be
entering a new era of good relations, some neanderthal cabinet
minister blows it all by saying the Rape of Nanking wasn't all that
bad, or didn't really happen, or Japan 'advanced' into Asia and
never really invaded it.
There is still so much that needs to be done.
******************************************************************
* -- ROB -- "640K ought to be enough *
* Seinan, Fukuoka, Japan for anybody." *
* -- Bill Gates, *
* Read The Japan FAQ:Know Before You Go 1981 *
* at *
* http://www.gol.com/jguide/rob.html *
* *
* "If a man speaks in a forest and there isn't a woman around, *
* is he still wrong??" *
* ------------------------------ *
* "I must have amnesia and deja vous at the same time--I *
* seem to have forgotten all this before." *
******************************************************************
To send me mail, delete the XNOSPAMX in the address
Andrew Drapp
michael bazeley (darma@*amitaj.or.jp) wrote:
: In article <gm97604XNOSPAM...@160.23.62.61>,
: gm97604...@seinan-gu.ac.jp (Rob) wrote:
: :::One major point I want to make is that to be
: :::logical, fair, reasonable, etc., you first have to look at things
: :::from an OBJECTIVE viewpoint.
: ...problematic, since relativity dictates that objectivity is a convenient
: _scientific_ fiction and has no place in discussions of cultural or
: ideological difference.
Whoa, flag on the field. 1. Relativity as applies to this situation would
be along the lines of cultural relativity. In that case, cultural
relativity claims that our values and views of "right" and "wrong"
are based on our culture and not on some absolue right and wrong. In this
case, again, objectivity is somewhat possible when we start with the
assumption that cultural values, are just that, cultural.
2. What in the world do you mean by _scientific_ fiction. There is
absolutely nothing "scientific" about cultural relativity. Additionally,
the scientific version of relativity actually claims many absolutes. This
is one of my pet pives. People who claim that the theory of relativity
says that all things are relative. This is along the lines of telling
Marc that medical research actually shows that smoking is good for you.
OK, I may be jumping the gun. You made no claims to the theory of
relativity, just to "_scientific_ fiction" whatever that is. Regardless,
I'm a moral absolutist (ie, I don't think right and wrong are strictly
cultrually determined). Furthermore, I think most people are moreal
absolutists. Here is the challenge, Did Hitler do any thing wrong? You
might try to hedge and say, according to my cultural upbringing, yes. But
that is not the question. Regardless of the cultural observer, did Hitler
do something wrong?
Andrew
and...@cet.co.jp.relativists.are.worse.than.spam.ok.not.really
Yamane Kazuo
In roc...@infonia.or.jp (Jean-Marc Rocher) writes:
>Mike Fester wrote:
>>
>> Shimpei Yamashita (shi...@socrates.patnet.caltech.edu) wrote:
>>
>> (Coupla coments)
>>
>> : The Tokugawa regime did make several attempts to regulate thought: it
>> : banned Christianity and a few fringe Buddhist sects early, and made
>>
>> I believe, though, that the ban of Christianity was more politically motivated
>> than anything else; simply, as the Christians would be titularly responsible to
>> a power outside the control of Japan, the Tokugawa could be threatened through
>> various alliances that could not develop, were there no Christians.
>
>> Mike
>
>Even more directly political than that; during the *mumble* period of
>Nobunaga, Hideyoshi and Tokugawa, one of the consistently strong rival
>factions was a group of warlords in Kyuushuu. Many of these lords had
>converted to Christianity, and so were the primary traders with Europe
>(due to their geographic location, they were also the primary traders
>with Korea and China). By declaring Christianity illegal and closing
>Japan off to foreigners, Tokugawa could effectively cut off their
>political and economic power.
However we must also add to this their security asspect,
where it's well known that Portuguese and Spaniards were considering
making Japan their colony
[as can be seen from a letter that was sent to Manila by Alexander
Valegnani]. And converting Japanese lords[such as Matsuura, Arima,
Outomo, Konishi, etc.] into Christians appeared to have been one of
their first step toward their gradual control of Japan.
Eventually Dutch took over, in place of Spain/Portugese, due to their
pledge to maintain strictly in trade rather than unlike their
predecessor's engagment in missionary works.
Mike Fester
Yamane Kazuo (yam...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: >Japan off to foreigners, Tokugawa could effectively cut off their
: >political and economic power.
: However we must also add to this their security asspect,
: where it's well known that Portuguese and Spaniards were considering
: making Japan their colony
: [as can be seen from a letter that was sent to Manila by Alexander
: Valegnani]. And converting Japanese lords[such as Matsuura, Arima,
: Outomo, Konishi, etc.] into Christians appeared to have been one of
: their first step toward their gradual control of Japan.
It's unlikely that the "colonialism" "threat" could have been carried out,
and certainly NOT by the time of the expulsions. Simply, Japan at the time
had more ships, and more guns afloat than all of Europe combined in the
Pacific. And Britain and Holland would likely have been eager and willing
allies in the event of any uprising seen as Vatican-influenced. However,
that would have left Japan (read: Tokugawa) with alliances that could be
shifted to another party. Simply, the Tokugawa set out to remove any potential
threat to their envisioned harmonious and enlightened rule.
: Eventually Dutch took over, in place of Spain/Portugese, due to their
: pledge to maintain strictly in trade rather than unlike their
: predecessor's engagment in missionary works.
Also, the Dutch were left with it, as the British turned down more lucrative
and friendly trade terms; they simply didn't think Japan would be profitable
enough for them.
Mike