Is Japan a postmodern society?
Tomoyuki Tanaka
In article <74aij3$m8g$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <Mic...@www.jtc.ac.kr> wrote:
>
>I tend to think of postmodernism as a movement that follows the modernist
>movement in the arts and architecture. In other words I assign it a fairly
>narrow meaning. I have seen some titles of books suggesting that Japan is
>already a postmodern society, a society which has absorbed all the
>implications of modernism and is now on its way of going the fragmented,
>highly video saturated content, style is everything content is nothing
>direction. Is this the case? What is your opinion?
>
what are the most interesting / well-written books or papers on
the subject?
Postmodernism and Japan (Post-Contemporary Interventions)
by Masao Miyoshi, H.D. Harootunian (Editor)
Hardcover (August 1989) Duke Univ Pr (Txt)
Japan in Traditional and Postmodern Perspectives
Steven Heine(Contributor), Charles W. Fu (Editor) / Paperback /
Published 1995
Multicultural Japan : Palaeolithic to Postmodern
Donald Denoon(Editor), et al / Hardcover / Published 1997
Mic...@www.jtc.ac.kr
movement in the arts and architecture. In other words I assign it a fairly
narrow meaning. I have seen some titles of books suggesting that Japan is
already a postmodern society, a society which has absorbed all the
implications of modernism and is now on its way of going the fragmented,
highly video saturated content, style is everything content is nothing
direction. Is this the case? What is your opinion?
Michael
--
-living in a world crowded with voices.
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Charles Eicher
> I tend to think of postmodernism as a movement that follows the modernist
> movement in the arts and architecture. In other words I assign it a fairly
> narrow meaning.
That is a terrible definition of postmodernism. There are specific
aesthetic and philosophical criterion that determines the concept of
postmodernism. It is not just any movement that follows modernism.
I have seen some titles of books suggesting that Japan is
> already a postmodern society, a society which has absorbed all the
> implications of modernism and is now on its way of going the fragmented,
> highly video saturated content, style is everything content is nothing
> direction. Is this the case? What is your opinion?
"Fragmentation" is not the primary characteristic of postmodernism.
Instead, perhaps the one important concept is the inclusion of multiple,
contradictory points-of-view, without making any attempt to reconcile the
differences.
As for my own opinion.. Marcel Duchamp once said "America is too Dada for
Dadaism." In that same way, I feel Japan is too postmodernist for
postmodernism.
----------------
Charles Eicher
cei...@inav.net
----------------
Rhialto
Charles Eicher wrote in message ...
>In article <74aij3$m8g$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Mic...@www.jtc.ac.kr wrote:
>
>> I tend to think of postmodernism as a movement that follows the modernist
>> movement in the arts and architecture. In other words I assign it a
fairly
>> narrow meaning.
>
>That is a terrible definition of postmodernism. There are specific
>aesthetic and philosophical criterion that determines the concept of
>postmodernism. It is not just any movement that follows modernism.
But postmodernism, like any other 'art' term, is terribly vague. 'Gothic'
can mean either extremely ornate or extremely simple, depending on who you
ask. It seems teh same goes for 'postmodern'.
---
Rhialto
Contra stultios, dei ipsi certant desperanter.
Mark
> In article <ceicher-ya0240800...@enews.newsguy.com>,
> cei...@inav.net (Charles Eicher) wrote:
> > As for my own opinion.. Marcel Duchamp once said "America is too Dada for
> > Dadaism." In that same way, I feel Japan is too postmodernist for
> > postmodernism.
>
> Interesting. I feel that Japan may still be a very traditional society.
> But I don't know so that's why I asked.
>
> Michael
I think someone (TT?) recommended this book already, but Harootunian and
Miyoshi's _Postmodernism and Japan_ is probably something that you should
read if you are *really* interested in this issue. I'm trying to puzzle
my way through it right now (without much success, hence my
procrastination). As for the definition of "postmodern" I have yet to
encounter any clear definition (the concept itself is against clear
definitions so far as I can tell) and am not terribly sure of the concept
myself, so I won't join in the argument of what is and is not postmodern.
Seems like anything you want to be postmodern can be postmodern.
The short answer to your question, if one follows Harootunian (great
name...) & Miyoshi, is yes (I think).
Mark.
--
Remove dos equis for reply
Mic...@www.jtc.ac.kr
> That is a terrible definition of postmodernism. There are specific
> aesthetic and philosophical criterion that determines the concept of
> postmodernism. It is not just any movement that follows modernism.
I don't agree with this. Postmodernism is not a well defined concept and
thus I feel free to define it as that which follows the modernist movement
in the arts and architecture. Postmodernism has theorists and critics;
Jameson is perhaps the best critic.
> "Fragmentation" is not the primary characteristic of postmodernism.
> Instead, perhaps the one important concept is the inclusion of multiple,
> contradictory points-of-view, without making any attempt to reconcile the
> differences.
I don't agree with this either. The safest way to understand postmodernism
is as the fragmentation of a holistic understanding of society. How
to include the contradictory? How to reconcile differences when there
is no common standard to do so?
> As for my own opinion.. Marcel Duchamp once said "America is too Dada for
> Dadaism." In that same way, I feel Japan is too postmodernist for
> postmodernism.
Interesting. I feel that Japan may still be a very traditional society.
But I don't know so that's why I asked.
Michael
Charles Eicher
> In article <ceicher-ya0240800...@enews.newsguy.com>,
> cei...@inav.net (Charles Eicher) wrote:
>
>
> > That is a terrible definition of postmodernism. There are specific
> > aesthetic and philosophical criterion that determines the concept of
> > postmodernism. It is not just any movement that follows modernism.
>
> I don't agree with this. Postmodernism is not a well defined concept and
> thus I feel free to define it as that which follows the modernist movement
> in the arts and architecture.
That's merely a definition of "avant garde." My art history professors
loved to point out that every generation considers themselves the
forefront.. and are just as quickly superceded. However, I try to dig a
little deeper. By superceding a previous movement, all you're doing is
defining that previous movement. Marshal McLuhan said that each new
movement fails at its own goals, but succeeds in fulfilling the goals of
the previous one. All that Postmodernism has done is to fulfill the latent
promise of Modernism. It remains to the movement that follows PoMo to
clarify just what PoMo really was.
> ..Postmodernism has theorists and critics;
> Jameson is perhaps the best critic.
I'm not sure I go for much of the current criticism on PoMo. They tend to
lump too many disparate subjects under one heading. I, for one, would
definitely NOT assign deconstructionist architects like Frank Gehry into
PoMo categories. My favorite Deconstructionist quotation is from Gehry, who
said, "I used to hang around with architects and engineers, because they
knew all the answers. But I decided I preferred to hang around with
artists, because they knew all the questions." That sounds like a classical
Modernist to me.
> > "Fragmentation" is not the primary characteristic of postmodernism.
> > Instead, perhaps the one important concept is the inclusion of multiple,
> > contradictory points-of-view, without making any attempt to reconcile the
> > differences.
>
> I don't agree with this either. The safest way to understand postmodernism
> is as the fragmentation of a holistic understanding of society. How
> to include the contradictory? How to reconcile differences when there
> is no common standard to do so?
I think we're in a fundamental disagreement. You assert that PoMo views
society through a multifaceted prism, giving a fragmented image. I think
its more like viewing society through the segmented eye of a honeybee. If
you want to call that "fragmentation" then I suppose that's OK, but it
doesn't go far enough, IMO.
Again, I consider one of the fundamentals is NOT reconciling the conflicts
within one's aesthetic or philosophical systems. Personally, I think PoMo
started with Kurt Goedel and his mathematical research. Goedel proved that
no system is completely self-consistent, there is always at least one
statement in EVERY system that cannot be proved true or false by the rules
inside that system. But they can be proven by extending that system, with
"meta-knowledge" perhaps. And then that system has its own inconsistencies.
Ad infinitum. This has tons of important implications, not the least of
which is that there is no ultimate truth, at least not in any finite system
(and possibly not within infinte systems). Any attempt to build an ultimate
truth that reconciles all the conflicts, well, that's sheer classical
Modernism.
PoMo attempts to substitute systems with Meta-systems, and criticism with
Meta-criticism. Recognizing that all systems and metasystems are inherently
flawed, and thus are all equally valid and all equally invalid, this is a
great liberation.
> > As for my own opinion.. Marcel Duchamp once said "America is too Dada for
> > Dadaism." In that same way, I feel Japan is too postmodernist for
> > postmodernism.
>
> Interesting. I feel that Japan may still be a very traditional society.
> But I don't know so that's why I asked.
In my own personal observations, Japan is intensely traditional at the same
time as it is intensely modern. This leads to all sorts of interesting
cultural internal friction, and I don't think the Japanese people give it a
second thought.